Ep. 35: It All Started With A Knock On The Rebbetzin's Door with Rabbi Yehuda Clapman

00:00 Speaker 1 So the next day, I called up Deberson to thank her in the name of the children for the dreidels and the candies, and so she starts like to apologize to me. I said, "My husband-- I didn't wanna hear such a thing." So I told her that, "Since you tell me this, I'd like to share something with you." I said, "On our way home, my wife asked the children how they'd like to visit, and my daughter said, 'It's better they should be together one minute earlier than we should come in to speak.'" And I was moved, you know. So Deberson said, "A feliche tochter dos."

00:34 Speaker 2 I'm Yossi Kamin. Welcome to Among Chassidim by Der Her, an ongoing farbrengen about life as a Chassid, our vibrant connection with the Rebbe, and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. Shalom Aleichem, Rabbi Klapman. How are you?

00:51 Speaker 1 Aleichem Shalom. Baruch Hashem. It's good to be here today.

00:55 Speaker 2 Okay. I'm, uh, very excited.

00:58 Speaker 1 Before we start, I'd like to give a shout-out of Hakoras Hatov to all the Bochurim, the guys in Mishmeres all the time, they give up from their own time. And, uh, by name is my ainikle. His name is Yisroel Yosef Hakohen ben Freidel. He needs a Refuah Shleima at the moment. And also to all the girls who are involved in Mishmeres and their Inyanim.

01:15 Speaker 2 Okay. So Refuah Shleima b'shech kol Yisroel.

01:18 Speaker 1 Amen.

01:19 Speaker 2 Okay. So let me ask you about yourself. And, um, I would like to know a little bit about you. I understand that-

01:28 Speaker 1 I'm still trying to find out a little about me also.

01:30 Speaker 2 Okay. Maybe we'll find out together. But I think you were-- I, I understand that you were born-- We're in Crown Heights right now, and y-you were born not too far from here. Is that correct?

01:39 Speaker 1 I was born in, with Spetshetsky I resident. That's on a few blocks on the north side of Eastern Parkway. When I was four, we moved to downtown to Church Avenue, which is now really becoming a haven for Lubavitcher Chassidim moving there, and all the-- all East Flatbush.

01:55 Speaker 2 East Flatbush.

01:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's where I grew up. I went to Yeshiva on East 91st Street. The building is still there. Unfortunately, it's not in Jewish hands at the moment. And, um, that was my formative years.

02:05 Speaker 2 Which yeshiva is that?

02:07 Speaker 1 The name of the yeshiva by David Lebowitz. It was a sh- uh, branch, a Brooklyn branch of the Yeshiva Chafetz Chaim, Mesivta in Queens. They had a branch in Manhat- in, uh, the Bronx. I think it was called something O or Moshe something, and then the Brooklyn branch was where I went.

02:23 Speaker 2 So growing up, there was no, uh, rec-recognizable connection to Lubavitch that, uh, your, your family had?

02:29 Speaker 1 Well, when I was about seven or eight, uh, predominantly I'm talking about the Shneur Budman, uh, not Shneur, Rabbi Shalom Ber Budman. Shneur was his brother, who passed away a year ago approximately. And, uh, he used to come to the shul where we davened in, it was called technically Avasakim, but more commonly known as Rabbi Bernholz's shul. A delegation of Chassidim used to come to make the Hakafos lively.

02:52 Speaker 2 Talitha.

02:53 Speaker 1 The Talitha. And, uh, one-

02:55 Speaker 2 What year is this? So this is like, uh-

02:56 Speaker 1 In the '50s.

02:57 Speaker 2 '50s. Okay.

02:58 Speaker 1 And one particular Chossid, I mentioned by name, Shalom Ber Budman, he used to jump on my father every time, "You have to come to Ebezor Hakafos. You have to come to Ebezor Hakafos." And finally, one year he wasn't taking no for an answer, and he grabbed my father and told him, "Go home, you should relax. Whatever you wanna do, it goes all night, but some point in the evening you have to come." And that year my father took me. Maybe I was eight years old or something like that. I don't know because I remember exactly. And that was when I saw the Rebbe for the first time. And like they say in the world of romantics, that was love at first sight.

03:29 Speaker 2 Hmm.

03:30 Speaker 1 I was in Seven Seventy before because my mother was the office lady in the yeshiva, and they needed a play. The Chossid printed, uh, uh, I don't know if it was a Chanukah play, a Purim play, maybe both, and, uh, the yeshiva needed it for the boys to be able to put on the play. I was traveling on public transportation since I was four and a half, so to come to Seven Seventy when I was six, it was no big deal. It was already a-- I was already a cultured traveler already. But then I didn't see the Rebbe at that time, and that happened on Simchas Torah.

04:01 Speaker 2 She sent you to get the book from-

04:02 Speaker 1 Yeah

04:02 Speaker 2 ... from, from America.

04:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:04 Speaker 2 Seven Seventy.

04:04 Speaker 1 So I came Seven Seventy, but-

04:06 Speaker 2 So that first time was in the .

04:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:09 Speaker 2 Approximately, that you came for Hakafos to see the Rebbe.

04:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:15 Speaker 2 And you remember that vividly?

04:16 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

04:18 Speaker 2 Can you describe it a little bit?

04:20 Speaker 1 I just saw a sea of black, but I saw the Rebbe. And somehow, I guess you can say one Neshama touching another with no peripherals around it. I didn't know then all the things the Rebbe did. I didn't know about all the other farbrengens. I didn't know about Lekach. I didn't know about those things. I just knew this is the Rebbe, and it was such a, a pull attraction that I kept coming back, and slowly I learned about all the other things, the farbrengens on Yomim Tovim and et cetera.

04:52 Speaker 2 So while you're learning in your yeshiva, you somehow on your own started-

04:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

04:59 Speaker 2 ... attending Seven Seventy more regularly and, uh-

05:01 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

05:01 Speaker 2 ... farbrengens, et cetera.

05:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, the farbrengens came later because I didn't know about them originally.

05:06 Speaker 2 So what happened? How, how, how did this come from, from a one-time coming to Hakafos to becoming more often?

05:11 Speaker 1 Well, it was every Simchas Torah that happened two, three years, and then I found out, let's say, Purim, and exactly how each thing fell into place. I remember exactly, you know, which years this happened or that happened, but it was over a process of time that I found out all, the whole picture.

05:26 Speaker 2 Wow. And you ended up going to yeshivas during that time?

05:30 Speaker 1 No, yeshivas I didn't go to till I was seventeen.

05:32 Speaker 2 So, uh, how, well, how did that happen? How was that arranged?

05:35 Speaker 1 Uh, by that time already I was in-- When I went to high school, I went to Mir Yeshiva.

05:41 Speaker 2 In Brooklyn?

05:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, um, my parents wanted us to get an English education because my father had I'll go to high school. And, um, so I went there. But already even in ninth grade already I was involved with the farbrengens and, um-

06:00 Speaker 2 So you're already very-

06:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

06:01 Speaker 2 ... entrenched with Lubavitch while you're in the Mir-

06:04 Speaker 1 Yeah

06:04 Speaker 2 ... High School?

06:06 Speaker 1 I paid the price for it also.

06:07 Speaker 2 What do you mean?

06:08 Speaker 1 But I don't wanna get into they didn't see eye to eye with Lubavitch, and I was the, I was the, you know, the guy in the middle, the-

06:16 Speaker 2 You were the Lubavitch representative in Mir. Right.

06:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. There was one, two others, like Galinsky. There were a few, but, uh, I had my share of, uh, interesting or non-interesting events there.

06:28 Speaker 2 So were there other people in, in Lubavitch that you were in touch with that were helping you-

06:32 Speaker 1 Yeah

06:32 Speaker 2 ... along the way?

06:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

06:33 Speaker 2 It's like Bochim and different, different, uh, people like that?

06:36 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. Uh, Bochim, I knew, uh, Avraham Stone, zol zayn gezunt, and Rabbi Galitsky, Rabbi Eli Gross, who was very close with Rebbi's mother. He was a big influence in my life.

06:48 Speaker 2 You just met them in Seven Seventy?

06:51 Speaker 1 Rabbi Gross I met in the country once, and, uh, I became part of the family by him, and he was the one that slowly built me up into understanding more, you know, about the Lubavitch and Rebbi's activities, so to speak, and...

07:04 Speaker 2 So you would come from East Flatbush, and then you had, uh, besides Seven Seventy-

07:07 Speaker 1 Yeah

07:07 Speaker 2 ... you had someone-

07:07 Speaker 1 In those days to walk to Seven Seventy, you used to go through the hospital, through Kings County, and, uh, they passed a rule that they weren't gonna allow children to go through the buildings without adult supervision.

07:18 Speaker 2 You would walk in the hospital?

07:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:21 Speaker 1 So, uh, there was one in the gate, and around the perimeter of the hospital, there was a wrought iron gate, must've been eight feet tall or something, but one bar was missing. In those days I was a skinny kid, so I was able to get through that bar, so I didn't have to walk all around the Albany Avenue to... 'Cause we lived on 38th Street, which is opposite Kingston Avenue.

07:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:41 Speaker 1 So I didn't have to walk around because I was able to get through the bars. The bar missing left enough room for me to get through, and I used to come all the time.

07:49 Speaker 2 Was anyone else from East Flatbush walking with you, or you'd go yourself?

07:51 Speaker 1 There were a lot of people that walked from East Flatbush, but they were further towards the 50s, like Rabbi Hecht and Rabbi Bukiet, and-

07:57 Speaker 2 Different area.

07:58 Speaker 1 So, yeah.

07:59 Speaker 2 So what happened by your first yeshivas?

08:03 Speaker 1 The first yeshivas, I asked many questions. Rebbi was very, uh, kindly and very soothing, and I asked a few questions, and Rebbi answered, and one I asked about putting on tefillin, and Rebbi gave me two conditions to fulfill before I started. And then I asked about that we daven Nusach Sfarad, but I wanted to daven Nusach Ari, so I asked Rebbi if I can change. And Rebbi told me that from Ashkenaz to Sfarad you can change, or from Sfarad to Nusach Ari you can change, but you can't change from anything back from Nusach Ari. So therefore, Rebbi told me that you should make sure for sure, you know, decide that this is what you wanna do it for your whole life, and then if that decision will be made, then you can, you can change. Next morning I changed already. A- actually, by the time I asked Rebbi all those things, I didn't have to do already, and rebensing, and Once Rebbi gave the go-ahead, so the next morning already I changed.

09:04 Speaker 2 And you asked about the Limud HaChayei also?

09:07 Speaker 1 No, that came later on.

09:08 Speaker 2 So what, what, what was that?

09:09 Speaker 1 In a different yeshivas I told Rebbi I have to get out of Mir Yeshiva. Just it was like a boom. I- it was just I had to get out.

09:16 Speaker 2 You wanted to go to Lubavitch?

09:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. So then Rebbi told me, "I don't know if you could switch in the middle," because it was in Adar that I went to yeshivas from my animal that switches, uh, which I decided. So Rebbi told me, "I don't know if you could switch in the middle," and it, uh, it came out I had to stay.

09:35 Speaker 2 You had to stay in Mir?

09:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:39 Speaker 2 Till the end of the school year?

09:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. That was already in, in 12th. I didn't bring it up again. It was-

09:45 Speaker 2 What do you mean?

09:46 Speaker 1 I didn't go to, I didn't go to English too much anyway. Uh, I, I went, had chavrusah in Seven Seventy in the afternoon that I used to come to most of the time, or quite, quite a bit of time, and as much as I was able to get out of English, I came to Seven Seventy.

10:01 Speaker 2 So, so how did you make the switch to, to Lubavitch?

10:05 Speaker 1 When I, in 12th grade, when I went into yeshivas, so Rebbi told me, before anything Rebbi told me I should make sure I graduate. Make sure I graduate, that was a heavy load because I hardly went to English too much. I go make it up, and then three months I go make up so much ti- uh, studies. Then Rebbi said make sure I graduate, and then Rebbi told me that since my parents agreed that I should be able to learn for one year before they want I should go to college, so Rebbi said that was like a, a beautiful opening for Rebbi. He said, "Good. Wonderful. Now you have that year, so you'll learn, tate that year ," you know, putting in much diligence and effort, and your parents will see a happy learning tate. And then they have the whole day long, they'll tell you that you should continue. And sure enough, I remember that one Friday my father was buttoning his shirt, uh, changing, you know, for Shabbos. He's buttoning d- down the Shabbos shirt, and we were home from the work that Shabbos, and all of a sudden that my father told me that, "Mommy and I see that you're happy learning, Tate. The whole day long, so you should continue." Exactly the word that Rebbi used that-

11:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

11:10 Speaker 1 ... just-

11:11 Speaker 2 Without you ever telling him, obviously, that-

11:12 Speaker 1 Huh?

11:13 Speaker 2 You never told him that-

11:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I didn't

11:14 Speaker 2 ... the Rebbi said that. Yeah.

11:16 Speaker 1 So I asked Rebbi which yeshiva to go to. So Rebbi boiled it down between Montreal and Newark. Newark was the forerunner to Morristown. And, um, Rebbi told me I should go check out Montreal and see how I feel about it. And then Rebbi switched gears and said, "But you know, it's so much time to travel there, and it costs so much money. Why should you spend the time to go there? You wait. Dan Holler will be here soon for farbrengen," whether it was in, uh, Hofov or it would be some whichever one the Rebbi mentioned, said, "You'll speak to him when they're here." Then Rebbi said, "Newark. Newark," he said, "much closer. It's nothing with time to travel there. Doesn't cost too much money. You should go check out Newark." I already understood where the Rebbi meant.

11:57 Speaker 2 So you didn't even need to meet Dan Holler then?

12:00 Speaker 1 Uh, maybe I spoke a word or two to him. I don't remember, but, uh, went to Newark was very, uh, I really liked it when I went. I went, like, in June to check it out I couldn't wait for the next month to start, so I should be in yeshiva there already.

12:16 Speaker 2 So in Newark there was, uh... So this is the-- Who's Dan Holler in Newark then?

12:22 Speaker 1 Dan Holler from Slonim, and he pierced the way as young people, was, uh, Rabbi Menachem Zivol.

12:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

12:28 Speaker 1 He was the mashpia, and Rabbi Zal Friedman was the rosh yeshiva. Later he came to Maristat to, uh, Olot HaTorah. And, uh, Slonim Garden, Nachum Steinberg was the mashgiach in zal.

12:42 Speaker 2 And when-- So when you're in Newark already, I imagine that you're coming every Shabbos B'varchim to, to the-

12:47 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:47 Speaker 2 ... farbrengen.

12:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:49 Speaker 2 And everything like that. So-

12:50 Speaker 1 But by that time I knew all those things already anyway.

12:52 Speaker 2 You're already in?

12:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. But I was able to actually come with no problems, you know. Of course, we made Dan Holler crazy when there wasn't, when there was a Suffolk farbrengen, and we tried to dray a cup that we should be able to come in, and that's at a different time.

13:05 Speaker 2 You're saying because that was a Suffolk?

13:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. The Vaade farbrengens we came. It was all the Suffolk farbrengens that, uh-

13:12 Speaker 2 Like when?

13:13 Speaker 1 Huh?

13:13 Speaker 2 Like when?

13:14 Speaker 1 Uh, usually, for example, Yut Zvat comes out on Shabbos, there's a farbrengen. But if it's not on Shabbos, HaMori Amonist. At least as far as my-

13:22 Speaker 2 Like the Shabbos before or afterwards?

13:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So there were certain farbrengens that didn't-

13:26 Speaker 2 So sometimes you would come and there wouldn't be-

13:27 Speaker 1 Or sometimes say, "Oh, we heard so Rebbe, somebody in Yechid, maybe he could stay for Shabbos." Oh, that must be a Suffolk farbrengen. You know, boys will be boys, you know.

13:35 Speaker 2 Dan Holler wasn't too fond of, uh-

13:36 Speaker 1 No

13:36 Speaker 2 ... of that. Uh-huh. And, um, so, and when you were by... So you're there for a year. How long did you stay in Newark?

13:51 Speaker 1 I stayed in New-- I had a lot of trouble in Newark. First of all, at that time my Yiddish was very schwach, and Menachem Zivol didn't speak English, and Rabbi Zal Friedman didn't speak English. So it was very hard for me to get along. I had trouble getting a chavrusa because I had nothing to contribute to the chavrusasap. I couldn't understand the shiur, so I had no input, um, and when I went in and-

14:11 Speaker 2 Your Yechid is with the Rebbe spoken English?

14:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

14:16 Speaker 1 The first time I went in, the Rebbe asked me at the end when Rebbe read my whole short novel, because it was so many pages, then Rebbe asked me in English, "You don't speak Yiddish too well, do you?" And I said, "No, not too well." So Rebbe spoke in English. The next year, Rebbe asked me, "Tuvah stay Yiddish?" So I said, "A bisl." So Rebbe spoke in English. The next year I figured, well, since Rebbe asked the question in, in Yiddish, he's not gonna ask any questions. Just speak in Yiddish now. So from that time on, I wrote at the end of the tzetle, I asked Rebbe to please speak in English.

14:50 Speaker 2 You, in your tzetle you wrote in English?

14:51 Speaker 1 At the end of the tzetle, I asked-

14:52 Speaker 2 But at the end of, you wrote it, you wrote it in English, the tzetle?

14:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

14:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So you asked Rebbe to write, speak in English?

14:57 Speaker 1 I asked Rebbe to speak in English.

14:58 Speaker 2 And Rebbe did?

14:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, except when we got married one year, Rebbe started speaking in Yiddish.

15:03 Speaker 2 By the, by the Yechid for your chasuna?

15:05 Speaker 1 After the chasuna.

15:06 Speaker 2 Oh, afterwards?

15:07 Speaker 1 And my wife and I, you know, through the corner of peripheral vision, I was just not even really turning around, just making eye contact. My wife didn't understand. She, her Yiddish was schwach. At that time her Yiddish was okay, but... So when Rebbe paused and I asked Rebbe to please speak in English, Rebbe started over from the very beginning.

15:26 Speaker 2 Hmm.

15:28 Speaker 1 That was, uh, getting off course. I forgot what I was supposed to be answering anyway.

15:32 Speaker 2 You're talking about Morristown and, uh-

15:34 Speaker 1 Oh, so I had a lot of difficulty-

15:35 Speaker 2 In Newark, sorry.

15:36 Speaker 1 I had a lot of difficulty in Newark. I told it to Rebbe, so I asked Rebbe about switching. So Rebbe wasn't in-- for next year. Rebbe wasn't interested in discussing next year because from Adar to Cheshvan is a half a year.

15:51 Speaker 2 But what, what, what does it help to switch? Where are you gonna go?

15:53 Speaker 1 I want-- I didn't wanna go back to Newark next year, so I was asking Rebbe for next year where I should go.

15:57 Speaker 2 But other yeshivas are better with, with English?

16:00 Speaker 1 I, I just had it over there.

16:02 Speaker 2 Okay.

16:04 Speaker 1 So Rebbe wasn't gonna, didn't agree to just start discon- you know, just disconnect from six months. So Rebbe told me you should go to Dan Holler. This is a lesson for everybody. Rebbe told me you should go to Dan Holler and you speak to him one time, a second time, a third time, or as many times as necessary until they'll give you a chavrusa.

16:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:24 Speaker 1 So in other words, to get a chavrusa, which is very hard for many young people to adjust to, to finding a chavrusa and a proper one and everything, is very difficult, and Dan Holler has to mix in. Rebbe said it's their job, and you should keep on pining, you should say. Rebbe said keep bugging them until it works.

16:39 Speaker 2 S-

16:39 Speaker 1 So it got a little better after that, and the, the next year I went to Kfar Chabad.

16:46 Speaker 2 So your Yiddish problem didn't resolve ?

16:50 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah, well, it was, you know, when I was ready for the blows.

16:54 Speaker 2 Yeah. So in Kfar Chabad, what, what you're talking about the late Chafts?

16:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:59 Speaker 2 So it's still, uh, Reb Semochaim.

17:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:01 Speaker 2 Was the mashpia.

17:02 Speaker 1 I learned by him. I mean, I, I should say he taught them since, uh...

17:07 Speaker 2 And, um, was that was a common thing for the bachurim to go to Kfar Chabad?

17:12 Speaker 1 Uh, we had a lot of the Americans there at that time.

17:16 Speaker 2 And you're there for a while? For one year?

17:18 Speaker 1 For one year, then I came back after, you know, by Elul I came back, and then I learned seven seventy, and then...

17:25 Speaker 2 So you learned to seven seventy?

17:26 Speaker 1 Until I got married.

17:27 Speaker 2 And you got married in-

17:29 Speaker 1 Toshu Lamed.

17:29 Speaker 2 Toshu Lamed. So you're Newark, Kfar Chabad, seven seventy, till, till you got married. I know you're a sofer. When did that happen?

17:38 Speaker 1 When I was 17, I told the Rebbe the, the Zirkinds moved into his flatbush in, uh, Cheshvan time. So I started learning a week after he moved in. I started learning by him. By Elul, I didn't ask the Rebbe about it, though. When it came Adar and I went into chidduš, so I told the Rebbe I started learning Rabbi Zirkind. I asked the Rebbe if I should continue. So the Rebbe told me, "If he'll tell you that you're a moser, until now you should continue until you're a good sofer scribe." Until you're a good s-sofer scribe. Yeah, Rebbe said in Hebrew, but because that word in Hebrew, he translated in English. He said, "Until you're a good sofer scribe." I'm still waiting for it to happen, but-

18:20 Speaker 2 You've been doing it for a while.

18:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:23 Speaker 2 So Rabbi Zurkin in his slapush taught you safrus and everything?

18:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. For that I give thanks to three people. One is that when I was about five years old, in shul Shabbos morning once with my father, so when they took out the Sefer Torah, brought the Sefer Torah bimah and they opened, oh, they have to roll to the kriah of that day. So my father was not one of the two that was doing the glilah, to roll the Sefer Torah to the proper portion for the day. But nonetheless, he grabbed me by the wrist, brought me up to the bimah, and showed me all those amudim that are going by so quickly from one side to the other, each column is written by hand, and together each, with each column, each, each line, each letter, and I was amazed. It looked so perfect, how could it be? I was only five or six years old. I said, "This I have to see." And I don't know how much mom and father told me, but that was the seed planted.

19:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

19:18 Speaker 1 And then, um, I did try in high school, I was friendly with a young bocher whose father was a sofer in but his father wasn't interested in teaching me. When the Zirkinds moved into the neighborhood, so Rabbi Zirkind started teaching me. And then, uh , later on, he felt that he couldn't give me enough shimus, enough, uh, practical experience in tefillin, so he arranged I should learn by Rabbi Matlin, which I was by him for two years.

19:47 Speaker 2 Rabbi Matlin, the sofer?

19:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. And just to explain what shimus is, shimus is to get practical hands-on experience. Today, many people, they learn by some big sofer, and the master, so to speak, shows you two, three times how to sew a pair of tefillin, then he's out trying to drum up customers for, for bigger things. Rabbi Matlin s-saw every single thing I did for two years, and he was sitting closer to me than I'm sitting to you, and I like to say if he was any closer, I'd have sewn his eyeballs up into the tefillin. But it's not much of an exaggeration. I mean, we were literally shoulder by shoulder, and he watched everything for two years. That's what you call giving somebody shimus, you're watching him and guiding him. It's not a question if you're a fast learner or slow learner. There are certain things that come about through the experience of time.

20:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:32 Speaker 1 And many of the young people going in today don't have that because they just learn by somebody, learn how to write a bunch of letters, and they're nice calligraphers, but they didn't learn the, they didn't learn all the aspects of safrus. And even what they did learn, they don't have enough shimus in it.

20:45 Speaker 2 Right. Rabbi Matlin also, I mean, he was local. He was like the, the, the in-house sofer in Lubavitch-

20:51 Speaker 1 Yeah

20:51 Speaker 2 ... at that time.

20:52 Speaker 1 Well, Rabbi Matlin, when I worked by him, I worked for him at night, but I didn't want to give up being a bocher in yeshiva. So Dan Holla had to make an exception that I should be able to be by him and still be considered a bocher in yeshiva.

21:03 Speaker 2 So this is while you were learning in Seven seventy?

21:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, um, at the same time I tried the, you know, getting out to Rebbe stories from him, which he wasn't a very big talker about what he saw by the Rebbe.

21:15 Speaker 2 What do you mean? Like, what was he involved in, Rabbi Matlin?

21:16 Speaker 1 He checked Rebbe's tefillin.

21:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:19 Speaker 1 And mezuzahs. So I was interested in hearing, you know, what it was all about. Uh, he spoke very little, but-

21:25 Speaker 2 So what did he tell you?

21:28 Speaker 1 One thing he told me, the Rebbe asked him to check many pairs of tefillin.

21:31 Speaker 2 For other people?

21:33 Speaker 1 No, this-- They're just talking about his own tefillin, the Rebbe. He said he wanted the Rebbe sh- he should check Rebbe's tefillin.

21:37 Speaker 2 Oh, they said ch... Yeah, okay.

21:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he told the Rebbe, this I didn't make notes of, so I can't say I'm a hundred percent accurate. He told the Rebbe that I don't want company. The company is the bochrim. No matter how you'll try to doctor it up and package it and everything, and Rabbi Groen will bring it out, Rabbi Kadau, whatever you do, the bochrim are gonna find out about it. So he said, "I don't want company." So the Rebbe said, "So you could do it here." So he put a small table in Rebbe's room, facing against the parkway, and what was Rebbe doing? So he told me, Rebbe called me to check his tefillin, not to check him. I don't know, Rebbe's the one who's supposed to do it. I don't know. I wasn't watching, watching the tefillin or... Then he told me that he checked, I don't know if he mentioned the number. He checked some pairs of tefillin, two, three, whatever it was. He couldn't sit, uh-

22:28 Speaker 2 You mean because Rebbe, Rebbe has four pairs of tefillin. Rebbe wore four pairs of tefillin.

22:30 Speaker 1 I don't know, but he, he said a lot. Uh, I don't know if it was four or six or ten or-

22:34 Speaker 2 But he-

22:34 Speaker 1 He had other, he had other tefillin and other parshios there also

22:36 Speaker 2 Rebbe had other tefillin-

22:37 Speaker 1 Yeah

22:37 Speaker 2 ... besides his own that he used every day?

22:39 Speaker 1 I, um, I didn't say he used these four every day either.

22:41 Speaker 2 Yeah, I know.

22:42 Speaker 1 I don't know what he did. Remember, I just know what he had.

22:43 Speaker 2 Rebbe had a lot of pairs of tefillin.

22:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:45 Speaker 2 Interesting.

22:45 Speaker 1 And parsh- sets of parshios. And, uh, he got up to leave. It wasn't formally say goodbye, he just got up to leave. So the Rebbe stopped and asked him, um, "How much I owe you?" He says, "I haven't finished." So he said, "But I wanna pay you this." He said, "Uh, um, a worker gets paid at the end of the job." So the Rebbe told him that, "If you don't, uh, if I don't pay you for the, what you did till now, I won't wear these tefillin tomorrow. And since I want to wear them, you should please tell me so I could pay you for what you did till now. And you'll do the other, well, you know, get paid for that too." So Rebbe insisted on paying before he put them back on. I don't know.

23:31 Speaker 2 Did he tell you anything about, like, the Rebbe's parshios or the Interesting. Uh, Rabbi Matlin was-- He was from Russia?

24:31 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so.

24:33 Speaker 2 I don't know much about him. Okay. And he also, he also did, um, I think Moshiach's Sefer Torah also-

24:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. He checked, yeah

24:39 Speaker 2 ... was the one that finished it, right?

24:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. He checked it.

24:41 Speaker 2 In the Cheder Chabad.

24:41 Speaker 1 He didn't, he didn't finish it. He checked it before it was ready for the sim.

24:45 Speaker 2 He didn't finish it? But he's the one, he's the one that was-- He was the sofer on hand.

24:48 Speaker 1 Him and Rabbi Zurkin. Rabbi Zurkin checked the Sefer Torah by night and Rabbi Matlin by day.

24:54 Speaker 2 So after the sim?

24:55 Speaker 1 No, no, before the sim.

24:56 Speaker 2 You're saying so-

24:57 Speaker 1 When the Rebbe wanted to get the Sefer Torah ready for, it wasn't checked, it wasn't looked at for, like, 28 years.

25:01 Speaker 2 But it was finished already.

25:02 Speaker 1 Except for the last, uh, word or two, whatever.

25:05 Speaker 2 Ah, so they're the ones that, that finished it off.

25:06 Speaker 1 They... No, they're the ones that checked it to make sure that, you know, everything's still in good order. And then somebody else was the one that actually penned in the last letters.

25:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Okay. So you're in 770. How... I mean, in general, I have a question. How, uh, how was it for you? I mean, you have a-- you came from a different background, but, uh, you're thrown into the Newark and for Chabad and 770.

25:31 Speaker 1 I wasn't thrown in. I wasn't sold in. I was sent.

25:35 Speaker 2 So you were happy? It was good?

25:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:36 Speaker 2 It was, it was, it was the, it was the right, it was the right thing to be?

25:38 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:39 Speaker 2 What was, like, the adjustments that needed to happen?

25:41 Speaker 1 Nothing.

25:42 Speaker 2 Nothing. You were right at home.

25:45 Speaker 1 Mm.

25:45 Speaker 2 Okay, perfect.

25:47 Speaker 1 Then at one time, Rabbi Zirkind wanted I should get more experience in sifrei tora, so he arranged with somebody on each side that I should be able to work on sifrei tora. So I came to that hall, and I told them that, uh, Rabbi Zirkind wants I should get more experience in sifrei tora, but I don't wanna give up being a bachur in yeshiva. So they said, "We can't answer right now." They did extensive research into the person that 10 10 zmim should wanna vouch for that guy's integrity. When they came to that conclusion that he's an elchid and everything, then they said, okay, I can go. 'Cause I was already getting married. It was, it was... And I knew what I wanted to do, so I was able to get experience in sifrei tora over there, and, uh, by night by, uh, Rabbi Mantlin.

26:34 Speaker 2 So you got married in 57 Lambid, you had yechid this before, before the chasuna. Your parents were in yechid this then also?

26:42 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

26:43 Speaker 2 Is there anything from that yechid this that you wanna share in particular? Or in general from the-

26:49 Speaker 1 It was something very interesting that-

26:50 Speaker 2 From the skuv from-

26:51 Speaker 1 The whole family went in, and, um, uh, from my wife's side also some people went in, and everybody gave a seidl. Except for my father and I, everybody else writes hieroglyphics. So it's completely i-i-illegible.

27:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

27:08 Speaker 1 And, um, Rebbe took all the seidlach, and then he asked my father two things. First, he asked my father, where is his youngest son? He never saw the family together. When absolutely Babitsha Mishpocha, Rebbe looked around and he asked, "Well, where is his younger brother? Uh, where is his youngest son?" So my father told the Rebbe he's in yeshiva. So my mother said, "You should tell Rebbe why." My father said that he's coming into yechid this another whatever. It was a week and a half. He said he didn't think Rabbi Goldman would let him in twice in one week. So he chose to go in Bayit, you know, for example.

27:41 Speaker 2 Your family had been in yechid this before?

27:43 Speaker 1 No, that was the first time.

27:44 Speaker 2 No. Mm-hmm.

27:45 Speaker 1 And then the Rebbe asked my father, very interestingly, take a look what's done by people's Shabbos table. My sister didn't know protocol or be correct, so she gave her seidl to my father to give in. He'd never take from a lady. So Rebbe looked at my friend and said, "How come your daughter made you a shliach?" Rebbe felt it was a breach in honoring one's parents to ask your parents to do something for you.

28:10 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:11 Speaker 1 So he said that, "How come your daughter made you a shliach?" And, uh-

28:16 Speaker 2 Rebbe, Rebbe explained, said that explicitly?

28:19 Speaker 1 What?

28:19 Speaker 2 That it's a breach in, in honoring-

28:21 Speaker 1 He said that, uh, it's like kibud av v'em. How did your daughter make you a shliach?

28:25 Speaker 2 I should tell that to my kids.

28:26 Speaker 1 Huh? I said this, see? But don't be embarrassed. "Can you pass the salt?" "Get up and get it yourself," you know?

28:33 Speaker 2 Yeah.

28:33 Speaker 1 I think I'm the only one there. I don't just ask anybody to pay. Once I get up and get it, whatever, somebody's sitting there, what are you bothering him for?

28:40 Speaker 2 Right. And so, and then the Rebbe-

28:43 Speaker 1 So then Rebbe spoke to my father in Yiddish. So that yechid this was in Yiddish, and I, I didn't have the, the gumption or the... I just couldn't ask Rebbe to change languages, so.

28:58 Speaker 2 So at that point it was still difficult to, to understand?

29:01 Speaker 1 No. No, no, but it was major different for other people.

29:04 Speaker 2 For other people, so, okay.

29:05 Speaker 1 But there was a few interesting things there. The first thing is, when I say about the everybody else was hieroglyphics except for my father and I, my imma letter was a week later. So we made up that everybody would go in together, and then eventually everybody would go out, and I would stay another minute. Rebbe was watching the door. As they were going out, Rebbe didn't take his eyes off the family and the door. As soon as the door closed, Rebbe grabbed glasses to put on to read my seidl. And that's when I realized the glasses had nothing to do with writing.

29:38 Speaker 2 With reading.

29:38 Speaker 1 Rebbe... It was reading. Rebbe read all those seidlach, even the ones that there's no pen And then the Rebbe said, what's going to be, they'll be sitting some- the lady will be sitting sometime in the gathering that people aren't covering their hair, and she is, but she's real self-conscious. She's liable to take it off. Sheitzers like to take off.

31:19 Speaker 3 That- that's the Rebbe explaining why a turban-

31:20 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:20 Speaker 3 ... or a tichel is not good.

31:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:22 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

31:22 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe says she can't, not only can't wear a turban, but but you have to, you can't even cover it. And to this day, my wife only covers her sheitel if it's mamish freezing, like blizzard weather out, then she'll put on, you know, a hat of some kind or something, uh, but otherwise she doesn't wear it 'cause the Rebbe told her you shouldn't cover the sheitel.

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33:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, later on, but we-- See, we have to put things in perspective. Years ago, I don't know when the first volumes of Igros Kodesh came out, but, um, who got the letter? The person who got it, and maybe he showed it to some of his buddies. But the Olam didn't know what letters Rebbe was writing, at least not me. Later on, we had Igros K- you know, it was echad to see some of the letters in Igros Kodesh. So you're able to see, "Oh, I asked that. I was wondering about that." It was all there. But you, you weren't trying to recreate the wheel, just you didn't know the wheel was there. You didn't know that I've ever discussed the subject.

34:03 Speaker 3 Right. So when your wife is asking about the sheitels, 'cause she wasn't sure.

34:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:07 Speaker 3 I mean, you knew something. That's why she asked. You know that, um, probably you knew-

34:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, we knew that the Rebbe said wear a sheitel, but she didn't, she was gonna l-lift up and possibly wear a turban.

34:16 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

34:17 Speaker 1 And then on the, when the Rebbe said no, as, as I said, it's about covering it, and the Rebbe wasn't in favor of that either.

34:24 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. And then the Rebbe gave a bracha at that yechidus also, I'm imagining.

34:31 Speaker 1 For the chasuna?

34:31 Speaker 3 Yeah.

34:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:34 Speaker 3 And when, when you had your, and when you were by yourself?

34:38 Speaker 1 Then the Rebbe bracha for the immo leidus.

34:39 Speaker 3 So it's, it was a separate yechidus, basically.

34:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:43 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. So you got married in Tosh HaLamed here in Crown Heights?

34:46 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Nope. The last chasuna to be in Borough Park.

34:51 Speaker 3 What do you mean?

34:51 Speaker 1 When the Rebbe spoke to Sikor about making chasunas in Crown Heights, so there were three chasanim. One person wrote in, it's not important who it is by name. One person wrote in that he has a hall already, and he spoke to the caterer. The caterer doesn't wanna come to Crown Heights, so he asked what to do. So the Rebbe told him you can't change. This would be such a terrible thing. You just can't break a contract. Then I wrote in, and I told the Rebbe that I spoke to the caterer, and he said if they'll let him in in Crown Heights, he'll be glad to come. And they-- I checked, they would let him in. But I told him about some other difficulty we had, and the Rebbe said, "No, you shouldn't change from anything of you-- any of your plans." So it came out we were the last one to be in Crown Heights. I mean, at Crown Heights.

35:38 Speaker 3 So the Rebbe didn't want to change an existing plan, but it was-

35:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:41 Speaker 3 ... kind of the habbo.

35:42 Speaker 1 Right.

35:43 Speaker 3 So you're the, the last, uh-

35:45 Speaker 1 The last

35:45 Speaker 3 ... the last wedding that could have been in Crown Heights that was in Borough Park. Right. I think people that got married later ta- could do the Crown Heights and all the Teher, Young Israel-

35:55 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:56 Speaker 3 ... different places.

35:57 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

35:59 Speaker 3 And after your chasuna, you asked the Rebbe about, about what you should do?

36:05 Speaker 1 Nope.

36:07 Speaker 3 So what happened?

36:08 Speaker 1 Nothing.

36:08 Speaker 3 Like he knew you were gonna be a soifer?

36:11 Speaker 1 Well, the Rebbe knew I can't, uh-

36:13 Speaker 3 But you, you knew, you knew that-

36:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was doing it already.

36:16 Speaker 3 You were already a soifer before?

36:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:17 Speaker 3 So that was the plan the whole time?

36:20 Speaker 1 And I spent, uh, the first period of time after our chasuna, so I, uh, used to work in the morning, and the afternoon I used to learn with Rabbi Zerkin for six hours. We learned five hours Gemara and one hour Shulchan Aruch.

36:40 Speaker 3 That's what you did every day?

36:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. Actually, just before I got married, I- I already started that seder. Uh, I asked Rabbi Mendlik about it, the shivim, and, uh, he gave permission. He couldn't understand how a person can, out of the big mishpacha, he's gonna sit and learn with you six hours a day. He didn't understand how logistically. But he came home from schecht with Rabbi Zerkin, and he, he was learning anyway. So we started learning.

37:06 Speaker 3 So when did he do the schlachtes in between?

37:08 Speaker 1 Who, Rabbi Zerkin?

37:08 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

37:09 Speaker 1 At night and in the market. It wasn't a very busy chicken market, so he used, um, Pacific Street. It was, you know, just on the outskirts of Crown Heights.

37:16 Speaker 3 Schlachtes?

37:17 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah.

37:18 Speaker 3 That's where people did kaparos, no?

37:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, uh, he used to ride over there and used to ride, uh, at night Six, six hours away with me.

37:31 Speaker 2 So then, um, and then subsequently you had a yechidasin with your, with your family?

37:37 Speaker 1 My wife.

37:38 Speaker 2 With your wife?

37:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

37:40 Speaker 2 After your, after your wedding. What happened by those yechidasin?

37:46 Speaker 1 By those yechidasin, she's the more tachlisdiker one than me. She just did wonders. She just asked the Rebbe for bracha for children. We didn't have children. We weren't blessed with the first child till we were married six years. So she just asked for children. She didn't, that was... Me, I came in, there's all kinds of dinim and minhagim and all kinds of-

38:06 Speaker 2 What do you mean? Like what? What were you asking?

38:08 Speaker 1 Huh?

38:08 Speaker 2 What were you asking?

38:09 Speaker 1 I asked things about shofars, about milah, about schritta.

38:12 Speaker 2 Did the Rebbe answer you?

38:13 Speaker 1 Huh?

38:14 Speaker 2 Did the Rebbe answer you?

38:16 Speaker 1 Some things, yes, and then one year he said I should ask Rov and chassidishe Rov, and then I know, okay, so that's, uh, you know.

38:25 Speaker 2 And she was asking for bracha for children.

38:27 Speaker 1 Yes.

38:28 Speaker 2 And what, did the Rebbe give her bracha?

38:31 Speaker 1 Yeah, and but it seems we weren't ready at the time because it didn't happen. And then, uh, one year she went in, and she told the Rebbe that, "I want the Rebbe to tell me we're gonna have children." Instead of just asking for

38:51 Speaker 2 Instead of just a bracha.

38:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, she said was that, uh, "I want the Rebbe to tell..." And that year the baby was born.

38:59 Speaker 2 Did the Rebbe respond to that?

39:01 Speaker 1 Huh?

39:01 Speaker 2 Did the Rebbe respond?

39:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't remember exactly how the, but yeah.

39:05 Speaker 2 The Rebbe agreed to that-

39:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

39:06 Speaker 2 ... to her, uh, request.

39:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:08 Speaker 2 And that year you had children.

39:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:10 Speaker 2 And how many children do you have?

39:12 Speaker 1 Counted another six.

39:13 Speaker 2 Six children. Uh-huh. Um, so I know also, I know at a certain point, you somehow had a kasha with the Rebbetzin. So how did that start?

39:31 Speaker 1 As I said, we got married in Tofshin Lamed, Adar time, in Adar. And then when it came the first Hanukkah, which was already in Lamed Aleph, of course, it appears Pesach Shana. So I saw an advertisement about a kit for making candles on yourself, by yourself, do yourself candle kit. And I thought that sounded pretty good, let me get it. I got it and I said, "Now let me make Hanukkah licht, the shabbos candles," because I didn't really believe they were pure ol- pure, uh, beeswax anyway, so let me see if I could make it, and I did. They were beautiful long tapered candles, and they, they looked so nice. I said, "Now let me make a set for the Rebbe too." So I made another set, packed them up, went to Rebbe's house, knocked on the door.

40:14 Speaker 2 You never had spoke to the Rebbetzin before?

40:16 Speaker 1 No. And then, uh, I heard a very sweet voice asking, "Wer ist da?" Who's there? So I said, uh, "It's a Klapman, uh, Klapman."

40:27 Speaker 2 It's a Klapman.

40:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, somebody Klapman. I didn't know what to say it's me, you know, just... So the Rebbetzin opened the door, and I explained to that, uh, was in the house, we made candles, and we'd like to leave a set here. I don't think I said Rebbe. I'd like to leave a set here. So she discussed, first of all, it was very icy, and she wanted-- she was concerned about how I made the trip to go down the whole driveway. I don't know if you ever been to the house, the whole driveway all the way to the back and up the steps and to get to the door. It was like a long J. So, uh, she discussed that with me about the difficulty that's coming through that, all that to get here. And then, uh, she complimented the candles and thanked me. And then she wanted me to repeat my name. So you say, "What was your name again?" So she said, "Pavemin," uh, she spelled, "Pavemin in shtut machmen azoy krashene licht." In whose house do you make such gorgeous candles? So I took it that she wanted me to... So I said, "By us, Klapman." But the way she put it to me, that she repeat my name was very aidel, very refined. It wasn't a who are you? She put it in such a way that it's so beautiful. In whose house do you make these beautiful candles? And then we started going every year. I should say I went every year.

41:41 Speaker 2 So every year that became a thing. You would knock on, on the door.

41:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:44 Speaker 2 And give the Rebbetzin candles.

41:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then one year, I asked her could we bring the children. This is skipping a whole bunch of years.

41:53 Speaker 2 So you, you started this right away when you were a young man, Tofshin Lamed?

41:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

41:56 Speaker 2 Okay, so many years later, you have kids-

41:58 Speaker 1 So I asked Rebbetzin if we could bring, if I could bring the children when we come.

42:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:03 Speaker 1 So she said, "Yes, and but the only thing is, I need some time to be able to make a party. I have to go shopping." That's what she said, "I have to go shopping." So I asked her, "What kind of shopping? What do you have to go shopping for?" "I have to make a party."

42:21 Speaker 2 So you called her?

42:22 Speaker 1 No. Yeah.

42:23 Speaker 2 You called her before.

42:24 Speaker 1 I called, yeah.

42:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

42:25 Speaker 1 And I-- she said that she, she, "You can come any time you want. I just need time to go shopping." And I said, "Shopping for what?" And she said, "To make a party." "A party? So what do you have to make a party for?" I said, "The visit is plenty."

42:36 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:37 Speaker 1 So she told me, "You should know that whenever you have children over, you have to make a party." It became so ingrained in us that later on, we were zecht to have grandchildren, so sometimes you have to differentiate between, say, grand-- zeide, the bubbe, who's zeide, which bubbe is it? So I used to call her Zeide and Bubbe Nash because we became famous with her. We had a Nash closet as big as a candy store. Rebbetzin said, "Whenever you have children over, you have to have Nash." Then so we brought the children over, and then that became a, you know, a tradition for us every year to come with the kids.

43:15 Speaker 2 So what would happen when you would come with the children?

43:19 Speaker 1 Each year was something else. One particular year I told the, the first time I told the children that if the Rebbetzin passes around the candy dish, which I figured might happen, so you can only take one candy. And she'll pass it around again, one candy. As many times as she pass it, just one candy at a time. So Rebbetzin took out a candy dish and she handed to my oldest daughter, and then, and then, and then each one took one candy and started again. Came to my youngest daughter who was there at the time, and she took a candy, and then she said, "That's not debetzim. Why should I have candy?" She's stuck in here and she already knew how to take candy. But after she took it, she realized it wasn't nice, so she started to give it back. So the Rebbetzin was taking and putting in my oldest daughter's pocket. So-

44:02 Speaker 2 So the Rebbetzin took it back from her-

44:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:03 Speaker 2 ... all the candies?

44:05 Speaker 1 One candy at a time, whatever it was, and then put them in the pocket of my oldest daughter.

44:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:08 Speaker 1 So, so you know what the game round robin is? So it's like round robin. This one's passing and taking and giving, and then they all end up in my daughter's pocket. So they went, and they went home, they had candy already. Um, another year before Hanukkah, I brought home a very beautiful, heavy blue, big block wooden dreidel. Man, it was a chunk of wood. It was a beautiful big piece with beautiful painted letters on it. So my son grabbed it and said, "When we go to the Rebbetzin, we're gonna give this to her for a gift." So they polished it up, and they boxed it, and they wrapped it with bows, and it really looked beautiful. Came to the house and asked and, and told Rebbetzin to have a gift for her. She took the gift, thanked them, and she went, "Now do you want me to open it now or later?" And they all jumped, "Now!" So she opened it up and started playing dreidel. And you can almost picture the scene, or it's hard to picture the scene. Here's a lady sitting very regally, a bunch of kids laying over the table, and they're playing dreidel together, and every time she spun the dreidel she got a gimel. And after a bunch of gimels she-

45:11 Speaker 2 This was before Hanukkah though, right?

45:12 Speaker 1 A day or two before Hanukkah.

45:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

45:14 Speaker 1 And, um-

45:15 Speaker 2 So every time she's getting a gimel?

45:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, and she said, smiled, looked up and she smiled and said, "I'm good at this." And so the, the picture was awesome. The scene was awesome. A lady, she said, looked almost like a bubbe or an elder bubbe sitting and playing with her grandchildren dreidel. They're all laying over the table, and somehow when they went they, they weren't like tin soldiers, you know. They, they, they snuggled up to it.

45:41 Speaker 2 Hmm.

45:42 Speaker 1 Another year we came, and, uh, there was a fearsome dog in the, in the backyard, and the next door neighbor towards New York Avenue side. And, uh, that dog was bark-

45:54 Speaker 2 A, a, a dog in the, in the-

45:56 Speaker 1 Adjacent house to the-

45:57 Speaker 2 In the neighbor's yard.

45:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:59 Speaker 2 Backyard.

46:00 Speaker 1 On the, uh, New York Avenue side, not the Brooklyn Avenue side.

46:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:03 Speaker 1 And when the kids came to the back, that dog was like a bear, a poised soul. It was like a head. Those kids were-

46:12 Speaker 2 In general, when people would come to the Rebbe's house, they would always go to the back. That's what it sounds like.

46:16 Speaker 1 I don't know. We came to the back.

46:17 Speaker 2 You always went to the back. Yeah.

46:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, uh, 'cause my brother used to deliver to them, so he went from the back, so we went to the back also. And, um-

46:26 Speaker 2 Your brother delivered what?

46:27 Speaker 1 He used to deliver for blood meat.

46:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:30 Speaker 1 So, uh, the kids were screaming frantically. Rebbetzin opened the door. She didn't have to say who's there. She just opened the door, and the kids are running in. It was very interesting. When she closed the door, she calmed each child down. She didn't make, "It's nothing," you know, "Don't worry about it." No, she calmed each child down, and then she told them that, "I don't like the dog either. But they told me that it should be there for security reasons, so... But I don't like it." And then she explained what she doesn't like. She said, "Because the people who come to visit me are scared because of the dog, and it bothers me. They're coming to visit me, and my guests, uh, uh, you know, are scared." So it was a big mussar haskal on that. So her, your pain was her pain. She has certain gay, yeah, dog no, didn't make a difference to her. But when she sees the reaction of the people who come to her, that bothers her. Lessons for us. You can't just say to somebody, "Everything will be okay." You know, you have to feel for them, and she sure did that.

47:30 Speaker 2 Hmm. What, what, uh, and what, um... It's not a regular thing, what you did, to just decide to g-give something to the Rebbetzin for the Rebbe to use, and then, then have, then your kids coming and having this whole relationship with the Rebbetzin. Most people in Crown Heights didn't do that, so what, what got you to do that?

47:52 Speaker 1 If I wanted to be sarcastic, I would say I didn't take a survey. But if anybody else did it, I have no idea.

48:00 Speaker 2 So you don't know why you did it. You just did it.

48:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, we know that, uh, Dr. Feldman, alav ha-shalom, his daughter was close to them, but that was a different relationship. She was already a kallah me'ud. She was, you know, she was in the chapter in life looking for shidduchim already. They were talking about wedding gowns, colors, schemes, chuppahs. It was a different kind of thing. A bunch of kids come playing dreidel with her. I, I don't...

48:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

48:25 Speaker 1 So the other people that I heard of people having a relationship with her, it w- the circumstance was different. And my daughter was, my oldest daughter was in a class with, uh, Shmuel Butman's daughter. And, uh, at the end of that school year, they had a, the elementary has a yearbook, not the high school. So, uh, they were enc- the girls were encouraged to write articles, and they said that anybody who writes anything about the Rebbetzin, they'll put their article first.

48:54 Speaker 2 This is after Cheh Deshvat?

48:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

48:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:57 Speaker 1 So the Butman young lady wrote smiling eyes and shiny eyes. You know, my daughter's writing about making birthday parties, you know? She's-

49:09 Speaker 2 Yeah

49:09 Speaker 1 ... she had other stuff to tell, you know. We had also one year, besides Hanukkah candles, my daughter, I don't remember how old she was at the time, she asked if she could make Shabbos candles.

49:24 Speaker 2 She asked the Rebbetzin if she could make Shan-

49:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, I went for Hanukkah and gave Hanukkah, she couldn't make Shabbos candles for you all. So she, may I make them? So that was really a big thing. Hanukkah comes once a year. Now you're taking on an obligation for every week. It's a whole different set of circumstances. You know, y-things come up, you go away. So my daughter said, "I'd like to make the candles." So Rebbetzin asked her, "But will you be able to do the jobs for Shabbos that you have and still make candles for me?" So she said, "Yes." But Rebbetzin wasn't gonna just take the word of a little girl on that, so she turned to my wife and said, "What do you say?" So my wife told Rebbetzin, "If she says she can do it, she's responsible enough, she'll be able to do both the candles." And said Rebbetzin to her, "Okay, thank you very much." And she said, "Okay. But I'd like to dwell on than the job part of it." Said, said, "If you'll still be able to do the jobs that you have for Shabbos." So Rebbetzin was saying you're supposed to have a job for Shabbos. What does that mean to have a job for Shabbos? You come into a house that looks like a proper home set for Shabbos. You're gonna see a table, you're gonna see challah on the table, you're gonna see napkins and silverware and glasses and cups, pecha wine, a grape juice for kiddush. That's... But how did it all come about?

50:40 Speaker 1 Did it come about when the husband came home from shul? Did it happen before they went? Did it happen with screaming, yelling, and, uh, chaos? Or did it come and everybody has a job? Now I know I, I wash the floors, I polish the silver, I set the table. Everybody has a job. Two things happen. The first thing is that it comes in very orderly, and the second, everybody can come to the table and celebrate Shabbos. I contributed this or that. I know Rebbetzin set the table Thursday night, so when it comes Friday, already the house has already a taste of Shabbos to it. But even if you don't do Thursday night, it should be sometime with a schedule that everything should happen very cohesively and come in like a, you know, like a fine watch movement, not just chaotically until it finally happens. And I think that's what she meant, that you have to have a job, and the job you can't just give away. "Oh, you make candles for me." You have a job, that's very important. You have to stick to it.

51:30 Speaker 4 Yeah. So she was, she was teaching a lesson also.

51:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:37 Speaker 4 And then your daughter would deliver them every Shabbos?

51:40 Speaker 1 Every Friday, yeah.

51:43 Speaker 4 And she would speak to the Rebbetzin every time?

51:45 Speaker 1 No.

51:45 Speaker 4 She would just deliver them?

51:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:48 Speaker 4 Hmm.

51:49 Speaker 1 She asked once about, uh, uh, setting up the lech, and Rebbetzin said yes, and it didn't work out. But then she already... She was growing up, and Rebbetzin was in the library, a bunch of bochurs setting up the house or sweeping up, vacuum, whatever they were doing. Have a girl come in, and said, already it came a point that it wouldn't have been a, I think anyway, it wouldn't have been appropriate. If she started when she was eight, probably would've continued, but she was just to make them and deliver them.

52:17 Speaker 4 And the Rebbetzin and the Rebbe used these candles?

52:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. Although it happened... First it was somebody who was close in Beis Riv told me that it's not possible that you do something on a continuous basis and then not use and just let it happen. The candle, she said she would use it. As a matter of fact, she had to make sure that it's not gonna interfere with something else. So if she wasn't gonna use them, she could've just said, "No, thank you." But it happened one year, Rabbi Groner came over to me and told me that I should make the Hanukkah candles shorter or smaller. So I made another one smaller, and I showed it to him. He said, "Make it smaller." I didn't know how small to make it, so I asked him. He said, "I don't know. I never showed him an eight. I have no idea. Just make them smaller." Finally, from a beautiful long tape, it came out like a piece of pencil. A little thing. So he said, "Oh, that looks good." When I made the candles, I made that s- that type of candle that size, and when I went to Rebbetzin's house, I gave... Eight were packed up, and there was a separate one that was loose I wanted to show her.

53:23 Speaker 4 You wanted to show what the original looked like?

53:25 Speaker 1 I wanted to show her the one she's getting this year in the package.

53:28 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

53:30 Speaker 1 And she smiled, and she really liked it. After Hanukkah, I went over to Rabbi Groner. First, you have to do what you're supposed to do, so I didn't ask any questions. After Hanukkah, I went over and said, "How did you know?" 77 was never part of this whole equation. It was only to President Street, and, you know, how did-

53:45 Speaker 4 So how did Rabbi Groner know to tell you for the house to-

53:48 Speaker 1 Yes. So he told me, he said, "The Rebbe told me to tell you that since Klapman makes the candles anyway, he should make them smaller so my wife doesn't have to cut them down." Like this, the Rebbetzin used to have to cut them in shul. So he was trying to save the Rebbetzin work. Said, "He's making them. Let him make it smaller." So from there I took a lesson that a good husband always tries to find a way to make the workload later, lighter for his wife.

54:09 Speaker 4 Lighter.

54:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, including the Rebbe. He said, "Why does she have, she has to sit there, cut them and throw them? Let him make them, you know, the proper size." So he was looking to cut down the workload on the Rebbetzin.

54:20 Speaker 4 Hmm. Beautiful. That's amazing. Were there other things that you brought to the Rebbetzin or to the Rebbe? It's, I mean, once you start doing this, maybe there's more things.

54:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. And nothing knows no limits.

54:35 Speaker 4 No. Okay, so that's fair.

54:38 Speaker 1 In everything, I just want to point out all these things were very good, and it was a chutz that, that Rebbetzin gave us. But they, they managed life ganz fine before we came into that picture. And ultimately, although I have to say that, you know, I, I, I, I can't express in any way with words or with emotions all it meant to us and everything, but the real only thing that a person can give the Rebbe is it settle that he learned something extra, or he does mitzvah more behitor, or he start doing something he didn't even know that he was supposed to do. That's the real gift for the Rebbe, and ultimately, I have to say, filtering over to Rebbetzin as well. Everything else is very nice. It's for you, but the bottom line is that the nachas the Rebbe has is when a Yid does an inyoni Torah mitzvah. You make a candle for me, very good. But what can you really give me that's for me is only, uh, you know, that you're doing something in Torah and aveida better than you did before. As a matter of fact, I don't wanna sidetrack too much, but Rabbi Tannenbaum also, Mendel Tannenbaum was the principal of Lubavitch Yeshiva. He used to go to South America in the summer collecting money for Lubavitch Yeshiva And then whichever country it was, it was a great, just give him a lot of money. And one year when he came, so the Grier told him, "I found

56:08 Speaker 1 a Becher, a Kiddush cup, that's so beautiful, it had to have been made for the Rebbe." He said, "Don't, Rebbe doesn't need it. If he has one, he-- if he needs it, he has it already. He doesn't like gifts." He said, "No, no. I'm gonna increase my donation to Lubavitch, that you shouldn't think that I'm giving Tzedakah money to yeshiva, I'm buying this, uh, silver Kiddush cup." And he told Rebbe, he told the man, "No, no, don't do it." So the guy didn't do it, but at the end he felt that he deserves at least an honorable mention. So they came back to Crown Heights, and he was giving a report to the Rebbe. He told him, "By the way, this and this person, he gave money and a bigger donation, and he wanted to buy you a Kiddush cup, but I talked him out of it." So Rebbe thanked him for talking him out of it. And then the Rebbe told him, "The only gift I accept is the gift of Sefarim, Jewish books. But don't buy the Sefer, don't buy the book and send it to me. You buy the book, you learn it, and that learning should lead to doing something better, better, like we said, either to do something you didn't know about before, or it's something you do now, you'll do it in a more enhanced way. And you send me a note that you do it. That note, that's my gift. You don't even have to send the book

57:12 Speaker 1 in. Send the note." So a person has to take everything in context. The only thing we can real- and when-- goes for now also, the only real thing you can give to the Rebbe is that you do something better than you did yesterday on, and/or you're encouraging other people to also do better. But, uh, getting back to the what you asked, one year I saw a jar of honey. It was a square mason jar, but it looked so beautiful. It was filled with honey, with a big comb, you know, the comb is the wax inside it, and it was so beautiful. I said, "This is for the Rebbe." And I bought it, and I sent it in. And then the next, the next year, we put in with a rimmon, with a pomegranate.

57:54 Speaker 4 To the Rebbe or to the, the rebbetzin, to the rebbetzin?

57:56 Speaker 1 To the rebbetzin, yeah. To the house.

57:57 Speaker 4 To the house.

57:57 Speaker 1 To the house. And it started growing every year, and then after Chof Beis Shevat, we brought the seven seventy. But by that time already, it was on a silver tray with fake green grass on it to offset the beauty of the fruits. You had maybe twenty fruits. You go shopping for two days to find the unique, uh, fruits of Shehecheyanu. And then there was a crystal thing holding the carrot slivers, and all, all kinds of things and everything. And then they used to give back all the Keilim after, after Rosh Hashanah.

58:30 Speaker 4 They would give you back the Keilim?

58:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. So we, we gave, uh, that, and then my daughter gave other things, and...

58:39 Speaker 4 To the rebbetzin?

58:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. She used to give, there was a plastic tree that she saw.

58:47 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

58:48 Speaker 1 And the points of the branches were very sharp, and you, you put on different fruits like dates or figs or whatever. And she, she bought that thing, and she put on all the different kinds of fruits, and she put gum dro- gumdrops, colored gumdrops to give it some color. And then the tray that was the base of the tree, she put buxom, she... So that they had all, they used that also. One year they came, and one year Tu Bishvat was on, uh, Chamisha Asar Tu Bishvat was on, uh, Shabbos, and it went to the ta- it was on Rebbe's table by the Fabrengen.

59:20 Speaker 4 Oh, so you're not talking about Rosh Hashanah?

59:22 Speaker 1 No, that, that's, uh, the, the two, two things.

59:24 Speaker 4 Two separate things.

59:24 Speaker 1 Rosh Hashanah was it. Yeah.

59:26 Speaker 4 So you give things Rosh Hashanah, Chamisha Asar Tu Bishvat.

59:29 Speaker 1 We noticed them the whole time.

59:31 Speaker 4 But interestingly, they sent the Keilim back.

59:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

59:34 Speaker 4 Always like that?

59:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, when she-- since she was a little girl, so from time to time when she'd send in candles, she would also send in a bud vase. A bud vase is a small vase that holds only one flower.

59:44 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

59:45 Speaker 1 So on special occasions, like a birthday before Yamim Tovim, she used to send a bud vase also, a bud vase, a bud vase-

59:50 Speaker 4 Her whose birthday?

59:51 Speaker 1 Huh? Her birthday.

59:52 Speaker 4 Her birthday she would send.

59:53 Speaker 1 Yes, and, uh... So, uh, once she went into Rabbi Klein, and she said, "Rabbi Klein, uh, I sent in a flower. Can I get the vase back?" She came back a few minutes later with a vase like, uh, they give today, like for, for the L'Chaims or the words. She says, "Rabbi Klein, I gave a little vase." "What's the difference from the Rebbe? I, um, I didn't see a little one. What's the difference? It's also from the Rebbe."

1:00:20 Speaker 4 Hmm. And using the same cloud that if every year they, they're taking it and sending back the, the dishes, that must mean that they're, they're using it.

1:00:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, well, the candles we know because Rebbe intervened.

1:00:33 Speaker 4 Right.

1:00:34 Speaker 1 And the Shabbos candles, she said. Um, and then one year I didn't send honey in time. It was kinda late in the season, and I called up if I can bring. So she said quite honestly, she said, "I bought it already." She said, "But if you bring a little bit, that's the honey I'll use."

1:00:50 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:00:51 Speaker 1 So she said explicitly that she would use it.

1:00:55 Speaker 4 Right. Right. And after Chof Beis Shevat, you would bring candles for, for the Rebbe also?

1:01:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:01 Speaker 4 For Hanukkah?

1:01:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:03 Speaker 4 Not for Shabbos?

1:01:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, Shabbos also. And for Hanukkah, just gave it to Rabbi Groner to make a, you know...

1:01:11 Speaker 4 And for Shabbos, so every week you're providing the Rebbe-

1:01:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:01:14 Speaker 4 ... with, with candles.

1:01:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:15 Speaker 4 The Rebbe, because the Rebbe lit himself.

1:01:16 Speaker 1 As a matter of fact, unfortunately, when Rebbe was in a difficult physical, uh, condition, she went once with, uh, with the candles and a bud vase with a flower in it, and a note. It was her birthday that week. So Rabbi Groner told her, "The flower I could put on Rebbe's desk, and the candles, with the letter I can't help you." It seems that that must have been a really-

1:01:47 Speaker 4 After Chavdei Noach you're talking about?

1:01:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. It must have been a really difficult time. He said, "I, the flower I could put on Rebbe's desk, and the candles, the Tzedakah I can't do anything for you." So she said, "I'm leaving it anyway." He called up during the week, and he said that, uh, however he communicated with the Rebbe, and the Rebbe gave a bracha. It seems that the maths have improved. So he called back and said it.

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1:04:07 Speaker 5 of Der Her through your financial support as well through visiting our website, derher.org, or through contacting us to setting up a meeting. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. Then there was, um, w- was there ever, like, um, a time that through th- all these interactions with the, with the Rebbetzin that you saw, like, uh, she never, she never spoke about, um, like something happening in seven seventy or anything like that?

1:04:36 Speaker 1 No. Not to me. I mean, other people had different relationships with her. Uh, Rebbetzin Kahn, when Reb Yael's wife, when, you know, spoke to her, they weren't speaking about kids playing dreidel.

1:04:53 Speaker 5 Right.

1:04:54 Speaker 1 Or making Hanukkah candles. You know, it was on a different, it depends who she, you know, depends who she was speaking to. We just didn't discuss it. And the word Rebbe came out to the best of only one single time in all the years.

1:05:08 Speaker 5 What was that?

1:05:09 Speaker 1 I was very careful never to mention Rebbe because I didn't want it to be that I'm trying to find out something or Rebbe, and she's just like coffee bitter thing, like a, like a conduit to be able to get there.

1:05:23 Speaker 5 Mm-hmm.

1:05:23 Speaker 1 There's like you, not, uh, it's hard for me to explain, but it wasn't a roundabout way to get to the Rebbe. As a matter of fact, she said once, "Would you like to come? I'm just picking numbers. Let's say four thirty." And I said, "Whenever it's most convenient. Five thirty? Whenever it's most convenient. Do you want to come when my husband is home?" I said, "No."

1:05:45 Speaker 5 She offered.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, I never heard her offering anybody else. To offer to come when Rebbe's home, and, but anyways, she asked, "Do you want to come when my husband is home?" I said, "No."

1:05:55 Speaker 5 Maybe she wanted you to come with the kids.

1:06:00 Speaker 1 In a very tangible way, Rebbe had accessibility like you can't imagine.

1:06:06 Speaker 5 To anyone.

1:06:06 Speaker 1 Coming, uh, uh, coming out three times a day, spending Shabbos, the, the whole Shabbos day with us, and for bringing the night till late, late night, not as maybe late as in the earliest, but still till quite late at night and everything. And now he has to come home after all that and see Klapman in, in the house. Because even seven-- why didn't, why didn't you all the time at seven seventy?

1:06:29 Speaker 5 Yeah. Uh, I think your son told me a story about, uh, when the Sfarim came back.

1:06:39 Speaker 1 When the Sfarim came back-

1:06:41 Speaker 5 Beis Kislev, Tammuz Mem Ches.

1:06:43 Speaker 1 She had a Chei Teivish was the Didan Atzak. That was the potential, but the, the Sfarim still weren't back yet.

1:06:50 Speaker 5 Right.

1:06:51 Speaker 1 So the Sfarim actually came back, unfortunately, such a long schlep on Beis Kislev.

1:06:56 Speaker 5 A year later.

1:06:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, almost a year later. And they wanted that we got a call in the morning from Beis Kislev that day, Beis Kislev, that the, the school only half a day. And they wanted the girls to be able to be there since that moment that everyone was waiting for with tears and heartbreak and everything finally coming to fruition. They wanted the girls to be able to be there to see it. So we got a chain called School Half a Day. My daughter had an appointment time to go to the Rebbetzin that day, later in the day.

1:07:26 Speaker 5 This is for Hanukkah.

1:07:28 Speaker 1 Uh, this was her bas mitzvah was Reuv Kislev.

1:07:31 Speaker 5 Mm-hmm.

1:07:31 Speaker 1 So it was before her bas mitzvah.

1:07:32 Speaker 5 She was going on her bas mitzvah.

1:07:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:34 Speaker 5 Okay.

1:07:35 Speaker 1 So I called the Rebbetzin. I said, "If an earlier time is convenient, since she has no school, only half a day, she can come earlier." And very sternly, the Rebbetzin is, "On favos naraha al betog. Why only half a day?" And there was no way that I was gonna get this seven seventy business involved. It was not a very pleasant time, and I, I just didn't want to discuss that, so I just said that was the text, that was the message of the chain call. And, uh, that was it. About 45 minutes later, we got another tzentkle, school all day, and we laugh in our house. What happened in another 45 minutes? Got a tzentkle school all day. Klamin speaks to the Rebbe, since once in a while only half a day, 4:30 they get the tzentkle all day.

1:08:26 Speaker 4 Right.

1:08:27 Speaker 1 Exactly what happened, Rebbe, it's just one's imagination.

1:08:29 Speaker 4 Right, and then famously, the bachur that were there, the Rebbe was not happy.

1:08:33 Speaker 1 Infamously, yeah.

1:08:33 Speaker 4 Infamously the Rebbe was not happy.

1:08:35 Speaker 1 That didn't turn out, yeah.

1:08:36 Speaker 4 Um, I mean, there were... I don't know.

1:08:38 Speaker 1 And by the way, the Rebbe said something that years before, I don't remember how to phrase it exactly, or how the Rebbe phrased it. The Rebbe made a comment once, the bachur standing outside, they should be ready seder, and they're waiting to see my car when I'm coming seven seventy, and as soon as they see it, they run in seven... They run in anyway. Well, you see that they should be learning.

1:08:58 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:08:59 Speaker 1 So to say they're just wasting time was never the Rebbe's, uh, pleasure anyway. He said, "Well, so what do you... They're standing outside waiting to... As soon as I come, they run in anyway."

1:09:08 Speaker 4 Right.

1:09:09 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe didn't appreciate everybody standing around.

1:09:13 Speaker 4 Right, and basically said there was... I mean, uh, this is what I heard. I have to verify that they, they wanted to make some type of ceremony of this Rebbe coming back, and the Rebbe rejected that. But I guess what you're saying-

1:09:25 Speaker 1 You, you would know more about those things than me, yeah.

1:09:27 Speaker 4 Yeah. I'm saying that, that you called the Rebbetzin, and then the Rebbetzin said, "Why is it only half a day?" And then-

1:09:33 Speaker 1 And then-

1:09:33 Speaker 4 And then very soon afterwards, you get another roll call. So yeah, it's very interesting.

1:09:38 Speaker 1 Now, she didn't even wind up going on Beis Ki Savor together.

1:09:42 Speaker 4 Your, your daughter?

1:09:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, her bat mitzvah is vav. So the Rebbetzin said, "You'll come on hei, hei kislev, and you'll stay with me until it turns night, and you'll become bat mitzvah together with me."

1:10:02 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:10:06 Speaker 1 And th-that, that's what happened. She went.

1:10:09 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:10:09 Speaker 1 But then she went herself. I didn't go.

1:10:12 Speaker 4 She went herself, not-

1:10:13 Speaker 1 No, yeah.

1:10:14 Speaker 4 Not with your wife either.

1:10:15 Speaker 1 No, herself. Uh, uh, it seems to me that I was speaking to Reb Aganzruk who used to be in the house a lot, that, uh, he made some kind of comment on that I thought that, you know, this should be just my daughter. My daughter, he said, that the Rebbetzin called the night before and spoke to her and told her that since she'll be leaving at night, you'll come by day, but since you'll be leaving at night, she should have somebody to come to pick you up.

1:10:50 Speaker 4 Yeah. Rebbe- Rebbetzin was concerned about the-

1:10:52 Speaker 1 She shouldn't go in there.

1:10:54 Speaker 4 By herself. Yeah.

1:10:56 Speaker 1 Then she asked how... I told her, she asked Rebbetzin how she celebrated her bat mitzvah.

1:11:02 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:11:03 Speaker 1 And she said that the Rebbetzin asked, "Is your father waiting outside?" She said, "Yes." "Okay, so we, we won't make it so long." She said she's not gonna ask any questions. But the Rebbetzin asked her, "How are you celebrating your bat mitzvah?"

1:11:16 Speaker 4 The Rebbetzin asked?

1:11:17 Speaker 1 "My daughter, how are you celebrating your bat mitzvah?"

1:11:19 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:11:21 Speaker 1 So she said, "We're having my clear sober and a few of the closest relatives." And she said, the Rebbetzin said that's what she did. To me, the, the family, how many friends did she have? And, uh, you know.

1:11:38 Speaker 4 They didn't make a big, uh, a big, a big ceremony out of the bat mitzvah.

1:11:41 Speaker 1 No, no. But it was a, you know, respectful, dignified, but it was on a smaller scale.

1:11:47 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm. Was, was there any interaction with the Rebbetzin about, uh, regarding, like, your, your work with the safries and, um, anything like that?

1:11:58 Speaker 1 No. I, I say in the house that the words coulda, woulda, shoulda equals you need a lesson in Shaddabidachan.

1:12:07 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:12:07 Speaker 1 'Cause the outcome of everything is the lesson of, of Hashem. But looking back, I, I don't understand how I never asked if I should do my Sofer program for her. I have a whole, like a whole, uh, show, and I tell her-

1:12:22 Speaker 4 You want... Oh, to, for her?

1:12:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:12:24 Speaker 4 Wasn't there something about a book?

1:12:26 Speaker 1 Oh. The book story is there is a place in Philadelphia called the Hebrew Publication Society, and they wanted to produce a book that shows how we make a sefer Torah. The materials we use, how it's written, all those kind of good things. And we became the focus point. Rebbe Cha... I didn't know if I should do it or not. Rebbe Chadakoff told me to do it, so we accepted it. And, uh, I had editorial rights to make sure that it's, everything is written properly, but nonetheless, he said to do it. And, um, when we came, they, they came to introduce themselves. It was a husband and wife. Uh, he was the, uh, the text writer, and she was the photographer. And we went through... They came many, many... The book isn't a very big book, but when it was very, very many times they came. And, uh, when the book finally was completed, they sent us a few copies. My daughter took one, said she's gonna send it in to the, she's gonna bring it to the Rebbetzin. I don't know if I sent one to them or not. I don't remember. But at any rate, the Rebbetzin called the next day. I answered the phone, and she wanted to know why Miriam just dropped the book on me and why didn't she come in. So I told her, "I don't know." The meanwhile, she told me she went through the book, and she told me that when she was a little girl in Lubavitch,

1:13:52 Speaker 1 listen to who's talking, she is Lubavitch.

1:13:54 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:13:55 Speaker 1 And said that she was friends with a girl whose father was Moshe Sa- the Sofer. And, uh, he used to do all the things that they're showing in the book. And when she used to, you know, kids every one day, you play in my house, I play in your house, everyone. So when she used to go to that girl's house to play, she used to like to watch the father, and she used to watch the way he did all those things that, that are described. And so she's so happy to see that it's still being done here in America. Then she got on the phone with my daughter. And my daughter said, "I know a book like this takes many visits, and each time they ask you questions, each time you have to make your hair and get all set and everything, and was it so hard and difficult each time over and over again?" And I saw it was amazing. Here she's talking to me about all these kind of wonderful things, making klaf and ink and the parchment and ink and everything, and here I'm literally talking about a girl, you know, making up her hair with nice bows and stuff. And yet she was able to deal with both.

1:14:53 Speaker 4 She's related to every person-

1:14:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, by, by what they are

1:14:56 Speaker 4 ... on that level. Their interests also, to the sefer. She's speaking about the safries and the-

1:15:01 Speaker 1 A little girl is talking about bows in the hair, you know.

1:15:05 Speaker 4 Uh-huh, it's very interesting. It's interesting that you reminded her... Something that you did reminded her about, about, uh, her youth in Lubavitch. That's very-

1:15:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, well, another thing happened, Then I saw a sicha from the Frierdiker Rebbe, that Rebbe describes about making the shiva licht, the licht that's customary to light on the Shabbos, uh, between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And, uh, at the time of the Tzemach Tzedek, the third Rebbe, it was a whole honor to participate in making that candle.

1:15:36 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:15:36 Speaker 1 Using a glass, I guess, and making the wick and melting the wax, all the things, steps that's-

1:15:40 Speaker 4 The whole havdalah, yeah.

1:15:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it was a very big honor to have any part whatsoever. So I told the rebbetzin I saw in a sicha-

1:15:47 Speaker 4 From your father?

1:15:47 Speaker 1 And I described to her. I didn't wanna say the... I just said I saw in a sicha.

1:15:50 Speaker 4 You didn't say who it's from, which sicha?

1:15:52 Speaker 1 No. I didn't know how to say your father. It would feel like, "What?" I didn't know. It was awkward, uh.

1:15:56 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:15:57 Speaker 1 So I just said I saw in a sicha that describes it, and I-

1:16:01 Speaker 4 What language did you speak to her in?

1:16:02 Speaker 1 Yiddish.

1:16:03 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:16:03 Speaker 1 With my children and my wife, she spoke in English. And with me, for the most part, she spoke in, in, uh, in Yiddish. But certain things were highlighted, and that she said in English. So, um, I told her I saw a sicha about making this candle, and the implication was, if you wanna do it, it's easy to arrange.

1:16:24 Speaker 4 You make candles?

1:16:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. So she told me that she remembers when she was a little girl in Lubavitch. This is the second time she used that as well. She remembers... I don't remember if she said she remembers seeing it or hearing that, that they were discussing how it was done in yeshiva or from, from that time. But nonetheless, she said, "But we don't do it now." So.

1:16:44 Speaker 4 She said we don't light it, or we don't have this whole hav- havdalah?

1:16:46 Speaker 1 No, she said we don't do it. She said that making it and...

1:16:49 Speaker 4 But they light it maybe. Yeah, 'cause Rebbe spoke about it only.

1:16:53 Speaker 1 I said I didn't discuss it with her if she lights them or not.

1:16:55 Speaker 4 Said we don't do this whole ceremony-

1:16:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, we don't make it

1:17:00 Speaker 4 ... with the candles.

1:17:00 Speaker 1 I try not to be intrusive into their personal minhagim or mehaggas.

1:17:08 Speaker 4 Right. But she did ask you to make other candles?

1:17:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. Once when I was there, she-- I didn't meet her that time. The, the... I'll tell you about that. The rebbetzin, rebbetzin called up one night and they, said he wanted to come home early. So she excused herself to whoever was in the house at the time, and she couldn't meet with us. She was upstairs then.

1:17:40 Speaker 4 You were scheduled to come-

1:17:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:17:41 Speaker 4 ... with the family.

1:17:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. And somebody, the last minute rebbetzin, rebbetzin called, and she couldn't meet with us.

1:17:46 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:17:47 Speaker 1 But he showed me that rebbetzin-

1:17:49 Speaker 4 Which one?

1:17:50 Speaker 1 ... whoever answered the door-

1:17:52 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

1:17:52 Speaker 1 ... a long candle. That was only a piece of it. It was maybe, maybe 15 inches long. That was the only part. And she wants to know if I can make such a candle. So I took that piece.

1:18:04 Speaker 4 Was that for Yom Teret licht?

1:18:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:08 Speaker 4 Was it around the Yom Teret?

1:18:10 Speaker 1 No. This was more around for Hanukkah time. But she was, you know, she wanted to have a shtarken them. She told me is that she used to get them at a certain place. They don't have them anymore. They're not making them. They don't carry them anymore. So she wonders if I'd make it. And she, uh, she was very disappointed in herself that it was from looked like that's not a nice thing to do, but she was stuck. And then she wondered, but the kinder health she said she didn't want the kids to be involved in that. Said no, they would not, they're not. And, uh, we made them.

1:18:40 Speaker 4 This is all through this, whoever it was?

1:18:43 Speaker 1 No, that was already directly with her.

1:18:44 Speaker 4 Oh, so after you said you could do it, you spoke to her.

1:18:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he said you have to, she said you have to give her a bill.

1:18:49 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:18:49 Speaker 1 Now, I really didn't wanna take money, but I also didn't wanna lose the zechus.

1:18:53 Speaker 4 If she's asking you to do something, so bemeila she wants to pay for it.

1:18:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. You, you, you can't do toivus for bes. As a matter of fact, years, years later, she told me she has, doesn't understand how this whole thing happened with the Chanukah licht, that they don't pay for it. Like, she, she's like-

1:19:07 Speaker 4 She told you that?

1:19:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. She said, "How that got-"

1:19:09 Speaker 4 How did this happen?

1:19:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. She said, "No." So I didn't wanna lose out on the zechus of making those other lichts, so I had to give a price.

1:19:18 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:19:20 Speaker 1 Then she called and told me, "Ich meint zutzagen a business bill." When I said a bill, I mean to imply a business bill. So now I have to differentiate what does it mean, a bill and a business bill?

1:19:32 Speaker 4 What, you sent the bill? Or you just told her how much it is?

1:19:34 Speaker 1 No, she told me that, uh-

1:19:35 Speaker 4 How big-

1:19:36 Speaker 1 Oh, later on. I had to put in the bill when I finished the candles. So she told me it has to be a business bill.

1:19:41 Speaker 4 Business bill.

1:19:42 Speaker 1 So I thought to myself, "What is the difference between a bill and a business bill?" A bill is put in the dollars. A business b- is it a bill, right?

1:19:50 Speaker 4 If what?

1:19:50 Speaker 1 If I charge her a dollar, it's a bill.

1:19:52 Speaker 4 Right.

1:19:52 Speaker 1 You know, marked down on the paper. But it's not a business bill. You can't get a candle like that for a dollar. So I figured $350 sounds somewhat reasonable. Had no idea what they cost when she bought them in the store. Eh, $350. So I paid three, charged $350, again, because I, I didn't want, I was afraid that if I say nothing and then, and, um, um, very emphatically, I'm afraid she's gonna try to find another source, and... So we made. And, uh, the end of that story was that she called up after the first one was used, and she told me it burned beautifully all the way down to the end. The wax didn't spritz out, and it didn't drip while. They said it was very beautiful. It seems that the next time wasn't such good luck, though, because she called up and she said that, uh, it was spritzing. Uh, if you get... She said maybe there was wa- water in the wax. She knew how to make candles because we discussed that before.

1:20:47 Speaker 4 She knew how to what?

1:20:48 Speaker 1 She knew how to make candles 'cause that was in a different conversation, so she-

1:20:51 Speaker 4 What conversation?

1:20:51 Speaker 1 What?

1:20:52 Speaker 4 No, you didn't, you didn't tell me.

1:20:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, she wanted to know about the, if you make other candles for other people also. Then she asked, "Do you make them in a mold? Do you hand dip them?" She, uh-

1:20:59 Speaker 4 She knew how to make them?

1:21:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. So when it spritz, it is, it is water in the wax. She said maybe there was water that got in the wax because it was spritzing, you know, like spitting the w- the wax. And then so I said, "I'm gonna make a recall." And I took them back, and, uh, then I started giving them, but I couldn't wait. I made, let's say, nine, but I couldn't make nine give what she needed, so I made a few, whatever it was, and I gave it to her. And, uh, s- then we came Hanukkah, so we're standing, uh, you know, by her Hanukkah. So she held out an envelope to me. So I said, "I can't take any money 'cause you have credit." In other words, she paid for, let's say, nine, and now I owe her another three, let's say. So I said, "You have credit." So she took the envelope, and she passed over to where my wife was standing. So my wife said, "I have nothing to do with candles. I don't know this whole business. It's between you and..." She, she doesn't know anything about it. And in the meanwhile, the rebbetzin is holding the envelope. So my wife asked the rebbetzin, "Is this Hanukkah gelt?" She said, "Yeah, it's Hanukkah gelt." We just assumed it was, uh-

1:22:05 Speaker 4 Payment

1:22:05 Speaker 1 ... you know, for the lift. She said, "No, it's Hanukkah gelt." I said, "Oh, Hanukkah gelt we take," and, you know, she gave it, my wife took the envelope, and we got home. There was a $5 bill for each child.

1:22:14 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:22:15 Speaker 1 So, so it was that good. In the meanwhile, I'll just mention something on that visit. On the way home, my wife asked the children, "Are you disappointed that you didn't see the rebbetzin?"

1:22:30 Speaker 4 That visit when she-

1:22:32 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:22:32 Speaker 4 ... it w- uh, it was canceled.

1:22:34 Speaker 1 Because when the person opened the door, she said, "Rebbetzin, you should come in. Help yourself." She made a whole, uh, dreidels and candies and stuff, "and stay as long as you want, but she's sorry she can't meet you in person."

1:22:45 Speaker 4 So the rebbe is home.

1:22:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:22:47 Speaker 4 And you guys are downstairs in the house.

1:22:49 Speaker 1 Downstairs. They're upstairs, we're downstairs.

1:22:51 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:22:52 Speaker 1 And, um, my wife asked the children, "Are you disappointed that you didn't see the rebbetzin?" So my daughter said, my daughter answered my wife, "It's better they should be together one minute earlier than we should come in to speak."

1:23:07 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:23:10 Speaker 1 So the next day, I called up the rebbetzin to thank her in the name of the children for the dreidels and the candies, and so she starts, like, to apologize to me. And so my husband, I didn't wanna hear such a thing. And so I told her that, "Since you tell me this, I'd like to share something with you." I said, "On our way home, my wife asked the children, 'How did you like the visit?' I wouldn't dare put it that you're disappointed. I just said, uh, my w- the, the, my, my wife asked the children how they liked the visit. And my daughter said, 'It's better...' I repeated exactly what my daughter said. She said, 'It's better they should be together one minute earlier than we should come in to speak.'" And I said, "Well," you know. So the rebbetzin said, ""

1:23:51 Speaker 4 Which daughter?

1:23:52 Speaker 1 "Which daughter is this?" Like, the oldest, the youngest? And what, which, what name is, you know, "What's her name? And how old is she? And what class is she in?" And I answered those four questions. Then she said, "We're friends. She can come whenever she wants." That was, like, sealed. Uh, those two had a special relationship after them that, uh, was-

1:24:16 Speaker 4 Your oldest daughter and that daughter?

1:24:17 Speaker 1 My oldest... No, that was my oldest daughter.

1:24:18 Speaker 4 Oh, now, uh, uh, those two, you mean the daughter and the rebbetzin?

1:24:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. She said that, uh... Anyway, Shmulou, I was speaking to him. He, they were really the noted shliach, uh, Shmulou from England. They were very close by. They used to come in, get royal dining service, and, and he told me once that's his favorite rebbetzin story. And I asked him once why. He said, "You listen to what happened?" He said, "Rebbetzin did the same thing." She was telling the rebbetzin, uh, my daughter was saying that the rebbetzin had a bigger call, that her husband was come-- rebbe was coming home, and she did the same thing. She saw that there's a bigger need than her personal needs of having a husband, like, you know, every husband, you know, every family should be zocheh that a wife has a husband that, you know, the pride of the family. And here she's making rebbetzin, she knows it's, she's, like, sharing the rebbe or giving that weight to Claudius throne, everything. She did the same thing for something bigger than her. So I said, "Hey, this little girl tapped into that idea and understanding that there's something bigger than you."

1:25:18 Speaker 4 Hmm. Yeah.

1:25:20 Speaker 1 So those two had their own, uh-

1:25:23 Speaker 4 Yeah, you said already that she came for a visit, uh-

1:25:26 Speaker 1 Yeah. Then once, uh, she came with me, but just about, just us two, my daughter and I. And-

1:25:34 Speaker 4 The same daughter?

1:25:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. And before we left, the rebbetzin asked, "Did, did you like the candy I gave you?" She said, "Uh," you know, like, she said, "It was okay." So the rebbetzin said, "Miriam, next time you come, call me before you come, and I'll try to get the candy you like." So I saw from there, it's not enough just to make somebody happy. You have to make it that they should really be happy. The candy was good, but this, but she said, "It was o- only okay," and she want-- the rebbetzin wanted to make it that it should be, you know, chas v'Shalom very good by her.

1:26:05 Speaker 4 Hmm. I read a story that, um, you wrote something into the rebbe, like a sto- like a, a story that you witnessed with a esrog. I read it on a, on, on a WhatsApp this year. Is that a true story?

1:26:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:26:22 Speaker 4 Maybe you could share that.

1:26:26 Speaker 1 My parents always used an Israeli esrog, and, uh, they only, we only got esrogim from my zeide to my father yet only after you're married. W- The, the children use the same esrog as the, the one esrog for the family. You got married, you got your own. The year we got married, that was really the first of the first, not only the first esrog of the year, the first esrog in my life that I was ever buying an esrog for myself. So, uh, my father used Eretz Yisrael, but I wanted Eriyyah from Italy, like the traditional Chabadis. So, um, somebody told me you should go to a certain person, and you should buy by him. I came up to his house, a big family, a small apartment, and mattresses behind the, the couches And the table with the srogim on it, they all looked after, they, they looked like, uh, green pickles. I, I, I wasn't used to seeing such a srogim. But here it, uh, it's in the person's house. I didn't know how to walk out. Finally, Rabbi Gross, Rabbi Eliyahu Gross, he was very close with Rebbi's mother, and he came into buy an esrog. He gave a quick look with his eyes, grabbed one, how much is it? He paid him, wished him a good yontif, and he left one. He left. I figured I can get out on his coattails. Came out of his house, and he told me, "The esrog is not a mehudar d'dekas. The esrog is not

1:27:46 Speaker 1 a very fine specimen of an es- specimen of an esrog. But my hiddur, my beauty of observing the mitzvah of, of sukkah is that it helps a Jew have parnasah, livelihood, in a respectable way. It's not the actual esrog itself. It's the holiday. The holiday is an expensive one. This person needs parnasah. He's doing this to make an income. I have to try to help him." That's, that's for me, that's the beauty of yontif. It's not in the esrog, the fruit itself, but it's in the totality of the whole yontif to help the Jew have parnasah. I think he also told me, "I didn't take the nicest one in case somebody will be a borderline case. He should have a better selection." And by the way, he-- that's the esrog he actually used because I saw him using it on Sukkos. So it wasn't just, you know, buy it and use something else. Years later, he became not well, Rabbi Gross, and I wrote into the Rebbe. I asked somebody to write it, an, an, an Israeli person, not a Lubavitcher per se, and he wrote it so beautifully.

1:28:46 Speaker 4 You, you asked-

1:28:48 Speaker 1 Somebody to write the story.

1:28:49 Speaker 4 To write up the story.

1:28:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he just grabbed, forget, half a piece of copy machine paper with such a beautiful penmanship and the wording and everything. I could never have copied it over like that. So I just wrote through it as Admor Shlita, addressed it to the Rebbe, and I went to Seven seventy. I saw Rabbi Groner. I said to him, "Could you have a seat? I wanna give you something." Sits down, I hand him a note, and I said, "Can you read this?" So he takes it, and he opens them, and he hands it back to me. "What happened?" It's addressed to the Rebbe. So I say, "I know it's addressed to the Rebbe. I wanted you to read it." He read it. He was reading it and smiling. It was, like, so beautiful the way... The one who wrote Maaseh B'Shnei Chassidim, there's an incident that happened to two Chassidim. He didn't even mention any names, just generic. Two Chassidim, this is the story between them. And, uh, while Rabbi Groner was reading, I asked him, "Do you think I should give it in?" When he finished reading, he became very irate. He said, "All the shtusim, all the foolish things everybody writes in, a beautiful thing like this you're questioning me? He's giving me all the other naiveshkeit, the foolish things people write in. That's, of course. Have such a beautiful thing to share, and this you're questioning?" He said, "Of course you should give it in. Give it in." The next day, he came over

1:30:01 Speaker 1 to me, and he told me, "I was there when the Rebbe read it." I don't know if they had some kind of signal between them. He leaves it open, leaves it on top. He stands. I don't know what's up. He said, "I was there when the Rebbe read the letter." And the Rebbe's smile got bigger and bigger and bigger. When it came to the end, it was mamash a smile, say, from ear to ear, so much nachas he had from it. And then the, whatever the Rebbe said for bracha, Daddy didn't repeat to me because it wasn't again. But the, that's in the actual story itself, the Rebbe had tremendous, uh, nachas from. And it's a lesson also. Sometimes you have to be more sensitive to somebody than just to flash around, have a beautiful esrog. It's an expensive season. How about your next door neighbor that might be able to be helped or needs help? You have to look out for them too.

1:30:44 Speaker 4 And the lesson is also that, um, when you see something positive, your knee-jerk reaction was, "I have to report this to the Rebbe."

1:30:55 Speaker 1 Uh-

1:30:55 Speaker 4 To give the Rebbe nachas.

1:30:58 Speaker 1 Of course, that took, that took more time than it should have. Had another one like that, though, in regard to what you say. Somebody stopped me in the store on Erev Pesach.

1:31:07 Speaker 4 In the store?

1:31:08 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:31:08 Speaker 4 Someone stopped you where?

1:31:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, in one of the stores on Kingston.

1:31:10 Speaker 4 Oh, okay.

1:31:11 Speaker 1 And, um, he said that he had, uh, extra cash around. Do I need it for Yontif? You know, just sitting here. And so I told him, "No, but if you wanna give out money," I said, "There's somebody who needs..."

1:31:24 Speaker 4 You gave him a name.

1:31:26 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I think I told the Rebbe that somebody came over. It's not that I asked, "Can you help me out?" Nothing. Somebody just said, "I have some cash sitting here. What you gonna do over Yontif? Not doing anything anyway. Maybe somebody needs it for now." So there are people that are sensitive that, how can I help somebody right now?

1:31:45 Speaker 4 You wrote that to the Rebbe also. Okay. What didn't we, uh, what didn't we cover?

1:31:54 Speaker 1 The gypsies. I don't know if it's, uh, the proper forum to discuss it. I'd like to mention this one thing about sofer. I'd like to mention two or three things that are applicable, uh, from this field as applies to people, to, you know, to the public. And that is, unfortunately today, people look for the easy way out of things. Can't say everybody, of course, but many people. It's very difficult to get used to writing with a goose feather. But nonetheless, that's what you're supposed to do. Today, they write with plastic nibs and, uh, and then plastic. Now the new thing I heard is ceramic ones. You s- they shape it to the, to your handwriting once, and then it's good for, you know, a very, very long time. The Rebbe said you have to write with a goose feather.

1:32:48 Speaker 4 The Rebbe told you?

1:32:49 Speaker 1 No, the Rebbe told Rabbi Zerkin. But there are people that they go to somebody, and it's done properly, but then they give it to be checked by somebody who's using metal pens and rapidograph pens. They say the ink is kosher. No, the ink is... That's not the way you're supposed to do it.

1:33:02 Speaker 4 It's, uh, where is it? Where, what's the makor that it has to be a goose feather?

1:33:05 Speaker 1 The Rebbe.

1:33:06 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:33:07 Speaker 1 If you wanna branch out from that, I went to Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who I used to go to quite often I went to a Moshe and I asked him about, uh, using those pens, and he said, "No, you have to use a feather." And he even told me, he said, "I know..." He spoke to me in Yiddish, said, "But I know that you could make a feather that's adel, that's refined enough, that it could s- even the crowns on the small- and the heads of the smallest letters in tefillin mezuzahs." See, he was aware of the problem, and he was Rebbe, but nonetheless, you can make such a feather when you, you know, you can properly cut such a feather. Then I figured, well, they- people would say it's a literature, so I went to Shpokotsky, who, Dasheven 770, who was the Rebbe's Rov. And, uh, I asked him about it, and he said, "No, you have to use a feather." So of course you'll find people say you could do this, you could do this. You can do anything, but this is the traditional way that you're supposed to do it. And as I say, that even somebody who was careful to make sure it was written properly, they give it to somebody to check, and the- that guy's messing it up. So you have to be careful who you give your tefillin mezuzahs to, to check. Um, the shiur that we discussed already, the, th- that they have to have ex- gain experience

1:34:21 Speaker 1 with somebody who, who's watching you, not just showing you once or twice and going out to, you know, create, drift, uh, more-

1:34:30 Speaker 4 Right

1:34:30 Speaker 1 ... mezuzahs. And the other thing is, it's becoming prevalent now that they seal up the tefillin like a bank vault, which is wrong. The opinions that hold the tefillin are really not good.

1:34:40 Speaker 4 What do you mean like a bank vault?

1:34:41 Speaker 1 You know, they glue them up, and then-

1:34:43 Speaker 4 Right

1:34:43 Speaker 1 ... there's a, and then they paint the edge. You can't even tell where to part it, it's open. And nonetheless, there's a taif from Begedim, that's when Moshe Rabbeinu was on Mount Sinai. God told him everything, and the Torah was written, the basics, and then the l- literature that came later discussed all the details of everything. And nobody says you sew the, with Begedim with the sinews of a kosher animal, and that's how you close the tefillin. No glue and no plaster. One person said they use, uh, baby powder mixed with paint, and it makes like a mud, and they put all kinds of stuff. Your grandfather's tefillin didn't have, uh, baby powder in it.

1:35:17 Speaker 4 Right.

1:35:19 Speaker 1 So we have to try to keep to the basics, and the best thing is that whenever you buy tefillin mezuzahs, you tell the person, "I'm immediately giving it to another sofer to check." That goes for me also, and, uh, at the time that that other person says they're kosher, then we'll consider it a sale.

1:35:34 Speaker 4 Nice. To make, make that a condition.

1:35:37 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, uh, also it's good if you can arrange that you should stand over the sofer when he's checking your tefillin and mezuzahs, and you don't g- get them done that often that you can't find a mutual time between the two of you to be able to stand over him.

1:35:50 Speaker 4 What's the benefit of that?

1:35:53 Speaker 1 First of all, it's a learning experience, especially if you take your children, or child, or bar mitzvah boy. It's a learning experience. And the second thing is, you know, uh-

1:36:02 Speaker 4 There's no monkey business when you're standing there

1:36:04 Speaker 1 ... yeah. Uh, in, uh, I was in the holy temple davening at one point in time, and, uh, one of the bachurim came over to me and told me that he brought his tefillin to one of the establishments on Kingston Avenue, and, uh, told him that I want it written w- any touches wr- any touch-ups you make has to be with a feather. The, not the, that wasn't the person's usual instrument of work. So he said, "Well, I'm gonna have to charge you more money, because it takes longer." So he came to me and said, "What should I do?" So I told him, "You should tell him you'll pay him the more money, but you wanna stand over him." Why'd I say that? If a person uses a feather every day, he doesn't need-- It doesn't take longer, and if it does, that's just the way he's supposed to do it, so you can't say, "Yeah, I mean, uh, just put in two parsas," because it saves time that way. It has to have certain requirements. But he's not gonna risk $1,000 pair of parsas for the sake of making another $10. If he's not used to use the fe- uh, if he's not used to using a feather, he's not gonna chance it because you're giving him another few bucks.

1:37:12 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:37:14 Speaker 1 So i- it's showing that that's not what they use.

1:37:18 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

1:37:19 Speaker 1 So I told him, "But tell him, but tell him you wanna stand over him," you know?

1:37:22 Speaker 4 And he didn't agree.

1:37:23 Speaker 1 I don't know. I didn't hear the end of the story.

1:37:25 Speaker 4 So you're saying soferim write with these pens, not only check.

1:37:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, there was one of the famous ones on Kingston Avenue. When his original, when he started out, his original advertisement said that he uses the epigraph pens, but he uses kosher ink. He, later on, he realized that there's flak towards the temp, but the first, uh, advertisement said that he uses it. It's a common thing, and just the idea, uh, we, for ourselves, we don't need a bigger source than the Rebbe said. A- and the Rebbe said he's not a posek and doesn't, uh, and so he's not the rabbinical authority to give the last word in Halakha. That's, the Rebbe could say that. We don't say that. If the Rebbe said something, that's, first, that's it.

1:38:06 Speaker 4 And you heard from Rabbi Zerkin that the Rebbe said this.

1:38:10 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:38:10 Speaker 4 Okay. So that's very informative. So shكر for that. I thank you for sharing so much about the Rebbe and about the Rebbetzin. I'm sure that, uh, people have hana'ah and it will benefit them, and the main thing is that we should give the Rebbe and the Rebbetzin the matamahs that they want, uh, to add in our Torah and our mitzvahs, and we give, we give the Rebbe and Rebbetzin nachas.

1:38:31 Speaker 1 Amen. That goes on everybody. And, uh, like we say, when it came time for Yetzi- for Yetzias Mitzrayim, to go out from Egypt, says that Moshe led the men out, and Miriam led the, the ladies out. So it should be now, I mean, the Rebbe should take us all out of galus, and Rebbe the la- Rebbetsin the ladies, or however the exact procedure will work. That means they should take us out of galus into the full geulah now.

1:38:53 Speaker 4 Amen. Chaim Manischewitz, thank you.