Ep. 16: What Does the Rebbe Want From Us? with Rabbi Yisrael Deren

00:00 Speaker 1 The definition of bocher is not whether he was by the Rebbe's minyan. The definition of, of, definition of bocher is how is he davening. It's n-not you were by the farbrengen. It's saying over the farbrengen. It's not, um, you know, the being b'gashmius close. It's being b'ruchnius close. It's pashut being b'ruchnius close, and there is no gashmius other than to the extent the ayel of seven seventy, but it's not even there. To be close in s- in seven seventy, to be close in by the ayel, to be close to the Rebbe, you have to be close.

00:47 Speaker 2 I'm Yossi Kamen. Welcome to Among Chassidim by Der Her, an ongoing farbrengen about life as a Chassid, our vibrant connection with the Rebbe, and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. Rebbe Darren, how are you?

01:04 Speaker 3 Baruch Hashem, it's a pleasure and an honor to be here with you. I am looking forward to a wonderful discussion, and if the people watching this ultimately get ten percent of the enjoyment that they normally get out of an issue of Der Her, then it will be an afternoon well spent.

01:24 Speaker 2 Okay, very good. And I, uh, I believe so far people are enjoying it. So, Be'ezras Hashem, I'm confident that this conversation will only continue that because sh'me halach l'fanav, Rebbe Darren is, uh, sought out all over the world to speak, and it's a zechus that, uh, I'm right here near the Adamas in Stanford. So, uh, taynog to mi deini taynog, you know.

01:51 Speaker 3 It, it's a zechus that I think is shared at least at a fifty-fifty percent level, and perhaps even the zechus may be even a bit greater at my end. But you know what? Let's leave that for others to determine.

02:05 Speaker 2 Okay. So, there's many ways we can begin. Um, I'm, I'm thinking that maybe we should start, um... You know what? Let's start, let's start from the beginning and move on from there.

02:25 Speaker 3 You always start from the beginning. The question is where-- how you define the beginning, so.

02:31 Speaker 2 In this case, I mean the beginning of your life.

02:33 Speaker 3 Okay.

02:34 Speaker 2 So, uh, arbaim yom k'ein de'mitzas ha'vlad. So, you have, uh-- So I know you-you're born in Pittsburgh, right?

02:42 Speaker 3 No, actually, I was-

02:43 Speaker 2 Oh, I got it wrong

02:43 Speaker 3 ... I was actually born in Davenport, Iowa. Uh, the reason my parents lived there, of course, my father was a shochet in Davenport, Iowa, and we were there for about a year. Well, after that I was-- after I was born, and then we moved to Chicago for a year, where my sister was born, and then we moved to Pittsburgh, where-

03:09 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

03:10 Speaker 3 ... the rest of my youth was spent.

03:11 Speaker 2 So in Davenport, Iowa, was that something that, um... So what year were you born?

03:20 Speaker 3 Tosh shana alef.

03:22 Speaker 2 So are they-- Were they living there? Is that something the Friediker Rebbe told them to do? Is there-- Or what's the-

03:27 Speaker 3 The... No, one second. They got married actually in Kislev Tosh shana alef. And yes, it was the Friediker Rebbe who s-- My, my mother wanted my father to sit and learn. My father was, uh, gaon adsum, and, uh-

03:42 Speaker 2 Where is your father from?

03:43 Speaker 3 My father is from the Shanghai Bochurim. My father was the youngest one of the group of Bochurim from the Yeshiva in Otwock, Warsaw, that escaped first to Vilna, and then from Vilna through Russia to Shanghai, where they spent four, maybe five years. Actually, mo-more than, because it was gone until Tosh shana alef that they got visas. The bulk of them got visas to come to America. So my father was... That's basically-- And then from there, he was in seven seventy. He learned three years.

04:23 Speaker 2 So that's, uh... Actually, a few months ago, we published, uh, Der Her published an article on the whole story of Shanghai. It's actually a very popular article. I'm not sure exactly if it's the historical aspect or the fact that many mishpachas are connected to that story. It was a very popular article. So your father became-

04:42 Speaker 3 Yes. So if you take a look at the picture that you had there of all of the Bochurim together with Rav Ashkenazi, um, or with the Bochurim sort of on tiers, my father is at the very top. He was a kid.

04:55 Speaker 2 So how-- So where, where was he from in Poland?

04:58 Speaker 3 The name of the town where he grew up was called Wyszkow. Well, he was, I mean, till bar mitzvah. My father's father was Niskar of the Chabad by a chasid by the name of Chaim Meir Lis, who was also from that town, who actually went to, to Temchetemim in Lubavitch, and he came back to Wyszkow, so he was Mekarev Maizeh.

05:21 Speaker 2 So he was a Peilishe Yid that went-

05:23 Speaker 3 Yeah

05:23 Speaker 2 ... that learned in Lubavitch?

05:24 Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

05:25 Speaker 2 There weren't so many like that.

05:27 Speaker 3 Not at all. Not at all. He was-- I, I don't know if he's the only one. Certainly not the only one.

05:30 Speaker 2 He's not the only one because-

05:31 Speaker 3 No

05:31 Speaker 2 ... I know Falakant talks with this whole story with Yankele the Peilishe-

05:34 Speaker 3 Yankele the-- Yes, yes

05:34 Speaker 2 ... which is written. He writes about it in his Zecher in, in-

05:36 Speaker 3 Yes

05:37 Speaker 2 ... Shemus.

05:37 Speaker 3 Yes, yes. Um, but there weren't a lot. Anyway, so he came back. Well, you know, the whole Lieberman family that we have today is that, that's Chaim Meir Lis's, uh, grandchildren, great-grandchildren. Chaim Meir Lieberman, alav ha-shalom, of course, is named for his, for his grandfather.

05:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:54 Speaker 3 Um-

05:54 Speaker 2 So somehow he ended up in Lubavitch, whatever his story is.

05:57 Speaker 3 He ended up-- I mean, he was actually-- I mean, my, my, my grandfather was already- Probably married already by then when he was in Skver. Actually, when he came to the Friediker Rebbe the first time, so the Rebbe told him he should not be mishyanim any of his minhagim. When he came where? To the Friediker Rebbe in Otwock, or probably, it was probably the first time in Warsaw, or maybe it was in Otwock. He came to yechidus to the Friediker Rebbe, and the Friediker Rebbe told him, among other things, not to be mishyanim his minhagim. So on Shabbos, they have zemiros. So, uh, my zeide would sing the zemiros quietly so the children shouldn't hear. Mm. They don't need this So it's interesting. So y- so that's, I think a lot of the bachurim that learned in the, in the

12:04 Speaker 2 So that seems to be, uh, an occupation that many people were being involved with then. We just read a whole article about the whole thing about, uh, Dublin in I- Ireland that Chassidim were doing that. I guess that was, uh-

12:18 Speaker 3 I, I guess, yeah, for America where „echad m’peos katlet“ and kol yom amesh it's, uh, you know, so you need somebody to shecht the animals.

12:25 Speaker 2 Right. Okay. So but that ultimately was not the long-term thing because they ended up moving-

12:32 Speaker 3 No.

12:32 Speaker 2 They didn't-

12:32 Speaker 3 No, they didn't live in, in Davenport. My father was a shochet, um, kol yomov. And the Rebbe didn't-- I mean, there, there was once the-- wanted to bring him as a Rosh Yeshiva in one of the new yeshivas they were opening, and, uh, the Rebbe said, um, um, "Men ep nisht zu fun a art fur dish vayr geshekt."

12:57 Speaker 2 So the, the job basically?

13:00 Speaker 3 Yes, it would seem like it because-- Or I mean, uh, Ha-how that, that, you know, pirush ihm veys ich nisht, but that the Rebbe wanted him to stay there, dos veys ihm meziche. You know, the-

13:11 Speaker 2 As a shochet.

13:13 Speaker 3 Yeah.

13:14 Speaker 2 And so why did he move to Chicago?

13:16 Speaker 3 No, there was-- No, I'm, I'm talking Pittsburgh now. No, I mean, from, from Davenport to Chicago, I, I don't know what, um, uh, what occasioned the, the move, um, from one place to the other, and I, I'm, I'm not sure, you know, how that went. I can't imagine they would move without asking the Rebbe.

13:36 Speaker 2 So they're living in, they're living at, in Pittsburgh, so that's where you-

13:39 Speaker 3 So in Pittsburgh is where my mother, of course, grew up, uh-

13:42 Speaker 2 'Cause your, your-

13:43 Speaker 3 My bubbe and zeide were there.

13:44 Speaker 2 'Cause your zeide, the Shalom, Shalom Poizner was sent by the Friediker Rebbe.

13:47 Speaker 3 To start the yeshiva in Pittsburgh, yeah.

13:49 Speaker 2 So they st- they s- they started the yeshiva.

13:51 Speaker 3 But the truth was, is that Motel Altheim, alav hashalom, was as a bocher yet came to the... So that, you know, he was the first one who came there to start gathering kids, but as a, you know, actually as, as a school and, uh-

14:07 Speaker 2 It's my understanding that the yeshivas that were started by the Friediker Rebbe, you know, the Achot Yisroel all over, there was a little bit-- It wasn't necessarily a long-term. A lotta, a lot of the people that stayed in Achot Yisroel, I mean, that's what they did long-term, but they, they were in various locations doing this.

14:21 Speaker 3 Certainly, and especially as a bocher. Um, you know, that's, you know, the, the obviously different conditions necessary for what a bocher needs and what's for a younger one needs. So yeah, I mean, it was-

14:29 Speaker 2 I know, like, I know, like, uh, Itche Levin Groner was, was-- he was in Chicago also at one point.

14:34 Speaker 3 Chicago and Buffalo and-

14:35 Speaker 2 Yeah, and-

14:36 Speaker 3 Bridgeport

14:36 Speaker 2 ... he's not the only one that, that were in a few places.

14:38 Speaker 3 Ach, ach, matal.

14:39 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:40 Speaker 3 The only one I know that n- never moved was my zeide. The Rebbe s- the Rebbe sent him Tav Shin Beis, and, uh-

14:48 Speaker 2 So your zeide, Shalom Poizner, he, he learned in Lubavitch, but he came to America early, right?

14:56 Speaker 3 My bubbe and zeide, they became a kos and kale in, in Russia, in, uh, um-

15:05 Speaker 2 So she's-

15:05 Speaker 3 Hey, she, uh-

15:06 Speaker 2 She's Chaya Fagin's niece.

15:08 Speaker 3 She, my bubbe is Chaya Fagin's sister-in-law. Chaya was married to my bubbe's sister.

15:14 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

15:14 Speaker 3 Tzeitel.

15:15 Speaker 2 Okay.

15:16 Speaker 3 Okay? In other words, Label Tzeitel was, uh, um, her father, and so her sister was-- And her brother was Aaron Leizer. Not Leizer, Label Tzeitel. And Aaron Leizer was her brother, her older brother, and she had a sister, Sasha, who was married to, uh, Chaya and my bubbe.

15:39 Speaker 2 So your kos and kale in Russia.

15:40 Speaker 3 And then my, um, bubbe had another sister who was in Eretz Yisrael, so she was able to get a certificate to go to Eretz Yisrael. And my zeide followed her a couple of months later, I believe. I don't think it was a very long time, but it was, it was a period later, and they got married in Eretz Yisrael, and they were in Eretz Yisrael. Ahem, and they were there in Petach when the Friediker Rebbe came. My zeide at the time was a shochet. Um, um, my zeide told the Rebbe... I mean, well, well, like, I'm sorry. The Rebbe told my zeide to go to America. And my zeide, bub, bubbe went to America and then saw the Friediker Rebbe again when the Friediker came to America at the end of Petach Tsadik.

16:33 Speaker 2 So they followed the Friediker Rebbe, essentially.

16:35 Speaker 3 Basically. In between, uh, they were, they were back with the Rebbe. They were with Friediker Rebbe in, uh, Eretz Yisrael and in America with the first visit.

16:43 Speaker 2 Is there a reason that we know why the Friediker Rebbe sent, sent them to go to America?

16:47 Speaker 3 Well, um, when the Rebbe came to, um, America in Tav Shin, my zeide was-- came to the Rebbe. They were living in Chicago at the time. And my zeide was, I think, a shamesh or something to take care of a shul, Bnei Reuven Shul. And we came to the Friediker Rebbe. The Rebbe said, is the Friediker Rebbe told him then, " Nisht af dem avek dia geshickt in America." And he told him-

17:16 Speaker 2 He didn't-

17:17 Speaker 3 "I didn't send you to America to do that." And that's when, uh, he told him about Pittsburgh. I don't know exactly the timeline and what it was, but that's when it changed. So when the, when the Friediker Rebbe came to America is when my zeide-

17:38 Speaker 2 So your mother was, your mother was alive when the, when the Fri- when the Friediker Rebbe came to Eretz Yisrael?

17:45 Speaker 3 No, just my two older uncles.

17:47 Speaker 2 There's a story, you know, that he-

17:49 Speaker 3 Well, actually, my zeide, the whole time that the Friediker Rebbe was in Eretz Yisrael, so my zeide just was, was with the, with the Rebbe the whole time, mamish the whole time. At one point, um, I believe it was my uncle or maybe it was my shver, one of the two, um, was sick. Maybe So, um, my bubbe went to, with him to Chache. Of course, her brother-in-law was there. I don't know if she actually went into the Rebbe or something, but the Chache either brought her in or whatever, and to My zayde didn't... Was-- I don't know exactly where he was at that time, but bechalal the whole time. This was the day before the Rebbe or a couple of days before the Rebbe left Eretz Israel. When the Rebbe left Eretz Israel, so all the Chassidim came gezagt on the train. When my zayde came to the Rebbe, so he asked him, "Vos macht di kind?" My zayde didn't, didn't know anything. So the Rebbe, the Rebbe understood what happened, and that's a You know? I guess.

19:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So they-- But so he, so he wasn't around New York bekvias ever, your zayde?

19:07 Speaker 3 No, no. Um, I, I don't know how often during the Shins my zayde came to the Rebbe. Uh, that I don't know. Um, but certainly not my mother. Um, my uncle, my shver and my uncle were learning in Torah Vodaas.

19:32 Speaker 2 Your uncle Leibel.

19:33 Speaker 3 Leibel.

19:34 Speaker 2 Alav ha-shalom.

19:34 Speaker 3 Alav ha-shalom, yeah. Were learning in Torah Vodaas, the kids.

19:39 Speaker 2 Because there was no yeshiva.

19:40 Speaker 3 There was no yeshiva. There was no other place.

19:41 Speaker 2 No Torah Vodaas.

19:41 Speaker 3 There was no Torah Vodaas. And when the, when the Rebbe opened Torah Vodaas, um, so they went over right away to-

19:48 Speaker 2 So they're the-- So your un-- your shver and your uncle, whatever, Leibel and Zamen are the first-

19:54 Speaker 3 Yeah

19:54 Speaker 2 ... talmidim.

19:55 Speaker 3 No, not mamash talmidim because they were, they were young then, okay? So I don't know what, how the, how it was with, with the kitas, okay? When, when exactly that started. Um, but, you know, from, from the first of that, yeah.

20:09 Speaker 2 But they were raised in America, essentially.

20:11 Speaker 3 Not essentially, entirely. Uh, they were born in Eretz Israel, but, uh, yeah. Actually, my shver still has a, a, um, copy of the passport that he had. It says bor-born in Palestine.

20:26 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:28 Speaker 3 An American passport, born in Palestine.

20:29 Speaker 2 Born in Palestine. So, okay, so let's move on to der aleyn. So you are born in Pittsburgh, and you went to-- So you attended the Ahi Temimim, the school that your zayde-

20:43 Speaker 3 I attended Ahi Temimim from the time I was, I guess, two or three, whenever kindergarten started or nursery till, uh, the end of eighth grade, yeah.

20:52 Speaker 2 And then for, for yeshiva ketana, high school, mesivta, whatever it's called, you went to New York?

20:56 Speaker 3 And then I came to New York to be-

20:58 Speaker 2 Beferendin.

20:58 Speaker 3 Yeah. Shortly before my bar mitzvah.

21:02 Speaker 2 You stayed in the dormitory?

21:04 Speaker 3 Stayed in the dormitory. My mother went to Bais Yankov. Uh-

21:11 Speaker 2 In New York?

21:11 Speaker 3 In New York. This was already high school. But they didn't have a dormitory, so they had to board with families in Williamsburg to be able to go to Bais Yankov. When she came, she was the first class where they took even out of towners. The place wasn't yet ready for her. The first night, she slept on a bench. Like that was the... You think, "Welcome at Bais Yankov."

21:34 Speaker 2 But you didn't have to sleep on a bench in Beferendin?

21:36 Speaker 3 I didn't have to. And Beferendin had a luxurious dormitory right in-house. It was five-star.

21:44 Speaker 2 So, a-and, um, the kids in Beferendin, the Rebbe, the bachurim, they were main-- They were Lubavitcher kids, though?

21:52 Speaker 3 Actually, no. I mean, I, I'm not gonna give you percentages, but there were quite a few non-Lubavitcher kids in, in, even in high school, in mesivta, and, you know, certainly in, in the, in the younger grades that were-- came from, um, non-Lubavitch families.

22:09 Speaker 2 So how did it work? 'Cause I... Like Reb Yael was, was, uh, taught you?

22:14 Speaker 3 Reb Yael taught us.

22:15 Speaker 2 So he taught the non-Lubavitcher kids also? How does that work?

22:18 Speaker 3 There, there was... Yeah, yeah, there was. Uh-

22:21 Speaker 2 So everyone had to speak Yiddish?

22:23 Speaker 3 Uh-

22:23 Speaker 2 Everyone spoke Yiddish in Beferendin?

22:25 Speaker 3 Or understood Yiddish. Remember, these, um, these kids were s-- already bl- I mean, mostly children, of course, of survivors, okay? So in, in the, the houses were, were-- houses where Yiddish was spoken. Um, they knew Yiddish at least as well as I did. I mean-

22:44 Speaker 2 Right, 'cause you also-

22:45 Speaker 3 I, I heard Yiddish in the house, but I didn't speak Yiddish. I mean, it wasn't, uh... Actually, I recall-

22:49 Speaker 2 Your father didn't, your father didn't speak to you in Yiddish?

22:53 Speaker 3 I definitely answered him in English, and-

22:55 Speaker 2 'Cause your mother also is American, right?

22:57 Speaker 3 Yes. My mother spoke to us in English, and, uh, my father bechalal didn't speak a lot. My father used to sit and learn. You know, he was not, uh... And, and even when he spoke, he spoke, you know, very, uh... I-- From my father, the only time I really heard at length stories from my father would be, um, after the Seder. Pesach, after the Seder. You know, in the beginning, I thought maybe it's the arbach oysis, but then I realized, no, it was, uh, pashut v'galad lavincha.

23:31 Speaker 2 So what, what would he tell you?

23:33 Speaker 3 Uh, about how he's grew-- he grew up in meisus defidikereve and how he was in-- when he was a kid, and then in yeshiva, and then, you know.

23:40 Speaker 2 V'galad lavincha. Uh-huh. So you're in Beferendin, and so you have a mashpia, you have Reb Yael, and who else is teaching you?

23:52 Speaker 3 Reb Yael l- was, um, would teach those days. So they were not mesivta. Reb Yael would teach, I believe it was already the, what was considered the zal. Um, yeah. Uh, so the, um, mesivta there was, uh, Rabbi Shve taught Chassidis then also. But from the regular-- I don't even recall, um, you know, the, the first one. Yeah, Rabbi Liss taught then also. I mean, Ch-Chassidis. Um, and one or two others. The, the regular, um, Seder Chassidis that was at night, which Reb Yael taught, so that was already in zal, okay? That would be after Su-- uh, in the evening, okay? From, what is it, eight to nine thirty or whatever, like the seder is now. So Reb Yael would teach the younger kitah from twice a week, and the older kitah three times a week. He, he would give a share.

24:54 Speaker 2 And he, he also farbrengs for, for the bachurim?

25:00 Speaker 3 He used to farbrengen until Kislev. That was the farbrengen of Reb Yael. I mean, uh, yeah, midpaagra would be not, but like a farbrengen, you know, uh, until it's shachar, that was twice a y- I mean, twice I sat.

25:12 Speaker 2 But I hear from other people, like Reb Yael taught them, and there was a Mashpia. Is that, was that at the time, or that-

25:17 Speaker 3 First of all, first of all, uh, uh, Reb Yael taught us. I mean

25:21 Speaker 2 Right.

25:21 Speaker 3 To, to sit by Reb Yael twice a week and sit by Reb Yael three times a week and get a share. I mean, yeah, I've, I've learned Derchom Tzerecha by Reb Yael, okay? I learned, uh, most actually was like Derchom Tzerecha was dif- different. That's what he, he taught us. One year, one certain

25:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

25:37 Speaker 3 And Shesh Mitzvas Fila, that, you know, so, so yeah, we learned that by Reb Yael. And then, of course, in seven seventy, I mean, Reb Yael used to give Shiurim, so it's not...

25:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. And what was the, um, when you were a kid in, I'm going backwards. When you were a kid-

25:53 Speaker 3 In Pittsburgh.

25:54 Speaker 2 In Pittsburgh, your father would bring you to the Rebbe often or not often, or what, what was the Seder with that and Rebbe's-

26:05 Speaker 3 My father used to go always Simchas Torah. It'd be Tammuz. I don't remember whether Yutrat, yes or no. As a Kviyus, okay? When I was a Kislev Yutrat.

26:22 Speaker 2 So you were, so he, so he would take you?

26:23 Speaker 3 So Simchas Torah, he would take me. However, the first two years, I remember the first year was probably I was nine or whatever, and that I was gonna go to the Rebbe. So I was so excited, I got sick. The second year, Sukkos, Punkt is over. So I ended up, the first time I went for Simchas Torah, I think I was already 11.

26:43 Speaker 2 What year is that?

26:45 Speaker 3 So it would have been Alef Chaf Beis.

26:47 Speaker 2 So you saw the Rebbe teach Nigun?

26:49 Speaker 3 I saw the Rebbe teach Nigun. Yeah.

26:54 Speaker 2 And you're 11 years old, so you're already with the, with the program. You could be there the whole time. So you remember Hakafas from, from Tachana Chaf Alef?

27:04 Speaker 3 Yeah.

27:05 Speaker 2 Were there a lot of kids there?

27:07 Speaker 3 I wasn't counting the kids. I, you know, it was, it was nothing. I didn't, I didn't see the kids. I, I, I-

27:13 Speaker 2 But you remember, you remember the Rebbe teaching Nigun well? Like something-

27:17 Speaker 3 I remember the Rebbe standing on something and teaching Nigun. I think the Rebbe stood by his, he stood by his farbrengen place. But he didn't sit down at all then, okay? He would-- Because he was just giving Mashke and then the Nigun and giving Mashke again.

27:32 Speaker 2 Like the, he, people describe it was on a milk crate or on a table, on a bench. I mean, what was this-

27:36 Speaker 3 What I saw, I'm quite sure it was the Rebbe standing on his, by his farbrengen place.

27:41 Speaker 2 On the floor, on the floor?

27:42 Speaker 3 There was... No, on his farbrengen place. Where the Rebbe used to sit, the Rebbe, but then stand, stood.

27:49 Speaker 2 On a, on what? On, on the-

27:50 Speaker 3 On the platform. The Rebbe used to sit by the farbrengen on a platform.

27:54 Speaker 2 So on top of that platform?

27:56 Speaker 3 Yeah. Az, az egeding sismeir. You know, I, again, I could be making a mistake. You know, I'm not gonna... Because actually, one time in my mind, I was picturing the Rebbe standing on a, uh, box, on a milk crate. But then I realized it was because of a picture that I had seen. A picture, I mean a drawing that I had seen that was just hanging from the company. Then I was like, tried to focus. "Did you really see that?" No, I didn't. I remember I didn't.

28:23 Speaker 2 Mm. So what was it like as a, as a kid to, to come to the Rebbe and to like, uh-

28:32 Speaker 3 The first time I came to the Rebbe was actually a school trip. Like the eighth grade was going to the, it was a school trip. It was, um, I believe for Purim. Twice.

28:45 Speaker 2 So the first time you, you saw the Rebbe when you were 13?

28:47 Speaker 3 Uh, the first time I saw the Reb- first time I saw the Rebbe, well, I saw as a child, but I don't remember. The first time I saw was Tav Shin Chai. I was by the farbrengen, Purim Tav Shin Chai. No, no, I don't remember much about the farbrengen, okay? I remember it was a pink, the hall, the, the paint was pink. I remember there was a lot of mirrors there. Um, uh, honestly, okay, I was, towards the end, I actually went into the Ezras Noshem, and I was sitting on my aunt's lap, okay? That, that, uh, what I remember. I was seven years old. Um, and yes, I, there were kids I remember also.

29:27 Speaker 2 Wait, wait. You were seven years old in eighth grade?

29:31 Speaker 3 No.

29:31 Speaker 2 Oh, you're talking about different, sorry. No, before.

29:32 Speaker 3 The, I was, um... It could be that was at that time, yeah. No, this was f- earlier. It was also a class trip. Um, but no, I went because there are certain advantages to having, not a lot, but having your mother as the principal, uh, chule. I mean, it's, uh, um... Generally, it was a down thing because, you know, obviously you got no favors. But to go to the Rebbe, that was, uh, something. And then we were by, uh, one year, also a class trip, was by, uh, Lag BaOmer, and we also went in the next day to Yechidus, the class. And the Rebbe, I remember the Rebbe speaking in English to the class. I can't tell you that I remember what the Rebbe said, but I was astonished. Why would the Rebbe talk in English? You know, this, the Rebbe, I mean, it's, uh, but, uh, uh, so those were two times that I, you know.

30:25 Speaker 2 Was that a common thing that, uh, uh, they would make a trip from Pittsburgh, Monkatona, to the Rebbe?

30:29 Speaker 3 I think it, I think it was every year. I'm pretty sure. I, I remember that, uh, I remember afterwards, you know, that, uh, all of the eighth graders, we had to, there was an assembly with all the eighth graders to tell over what was, uh, what was, um, you know-

30:49 Speaker 2 Who, who-

30:49 Speaker 3 What, what the experience was like. And then I, the, I asked, I was asked to say, you know, what, what was the most imp-, you know, impactful, I don't, don't recall the words that were used. Took it. But, but what you saw, what was the thing that made the biggest impression on you? And I said, uh- Seeing the Rebbe cry. It was by the farbrengen. So the kids in school obviously did not begin to understand what I was talking about. You know, it was like, uh, they, they didn't... But, uh, but I, but I, I-- And actually, I remember that dialogue probably because they didn't understand it. I was thinking, I said, "Why did I say it?" They, but they... You know, it's like the Rebbe crying is not like us crying, but, uh, just-

31:37 Speaker 2 You're saying you had a Hasidisha, you know-

31:40 Speaker 3 Derech er is the word I think they're looking for.

31:41 Speaker 2 Hasidisha derech er.

31:42 Speaker 3 Yeah.

31:44 Speaker 2 Um-

31:44 Speaker 3 I, I, I, you know, I did-- wouldn't define it as such, but yes, in retrospect, you must say that. I mean, it was-

31:50 Speaker 2 Similar also probably has to do with your upbringing and who your parents were and Zeide was, no? Is it-

31:55 Speaker 3 It probably had something to do with that. I doubt it was because of the Hasidish I learned or the, the Kikuti D'Buriam that I had read.

32:01 Speaker 2 Did you hear from your Zeide or your parents these type of things, or they didn't talk about things like we do today?

32:07 Speaker 3 Honestly, I would hear more stories about Hasidim than about Rebbe. And that, you know, later, when I came to yeshiva, and I started hearing all these maoses, and, and why, why didn't my parents tell me these stories? I mean, they, they obviously knew them, and the books, you know, it was like, what's... Until I siebie because my parents weren't trying to raise a Rebbe. They were trying to raise a Hasid. So the stories they told were stories, stories of Hasidim. Um-

32:33 Speaker 2 There's something from the Rebbe about that. I forgot who it was too. The Rebbe told somebody to say... I forgot who it was too. The Rebbe told someone to say stories of Hasidim because it's relatable. I'm saying it's-

32:49 Speaker 3 Exactly

32:49 Speaker 2 ...it's something that you can achieve too.

32:50 Speaker 3 That's, uh-

32:52 Speaker 2 Forgot who it was too.

32:52 Speaker 3 Uh, it's not to say they didn't tell stories of the Rebbe, im hocher, but, but you know, the, th-that was unusual. Oh, a story about the Rebbe was like, uh-

33:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Okay, so back to Bedford-Indienne. So once you're at Bedford-Indienne, you were by the Rebbe how often? Like on Shabbos, Mitke?

33:12 Speaker 3 Yeah, no. Um, Shabbo- every Shabbos. I mean, Shabbos was in, um, even though it was Bedford-Indienne, but we were never in yeshiva, uh, uh, on the weekends.

33:20 Speaker 2 But where was the dormitory?

33:21 Speaker 3 The dormitory was in Bedford-Indienne, and Shabbos we used to be by families in Crown Heights.

33:25 Speaker 2 So you had the same family?

33:27 Speaker 3 Uh, the f-- well, the first two years, I stayed by Rav Zalman Schimen because Rav Schimen had been in Pittsburgh, so we were very close. So that, that... And then the next two years, uh, by, yeah, families of-

33:38 Speaker 2 Zalman Schimen was, uh, on Eastern Parkway the whole time?

33:41 Speaker 3 Actually, at the time, he was living on... No, he was living on Lincoln Street, like opposites of, opposite the other side of Seven sixty-three.

33:50 Speaker 2 So you're fourteen, fifteen, and that's about farbrengen. Like, you're there every, the whole farbrengen the whole time. You have a place, like-

33:57 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yep. Um, my had place was, it was like, uh, near the Oren Keidish. Um, remember this was the small shul, so the Oren Keidish is, was, you know, not far-

34:11 Speaker 2 This is the first shul downstairs.

34:12 Speaker 3 The first shul downstairs, yeah.

34:15 Speaker 2 In Oren Keidish.

34:18 Speaker 3 The first farbrengen that I remember more of w- a, a lot of was Yud Beis Tammuz farbrengen. It was already Chaf Chaf Alef that was still in the shalash, and, uh, I remember, uh, getting, getting wet from the, somebody pushing up as I was coming in, pushing up the, uh-

34:36 Speaker 2 Tarp

34:36 Speaker 3 ...the tarp and this and that. That farbrengen, I stood near my Zeide, who stood on the, you know, like next to where Rashag used to sit, just behind Rashag. And at what point, at one point, the Rebbe called me over, and he gave me a piece of mezeines, and he told me, told me to make a bracha while I was standing there.

35:01 Speaker 2 This is-

35:02 Speaker 3 Yud Beis Tammuz.

35:03 Speaker 2 But this is when you were a kid still?

35:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, but it-

35:05 Speaker 2 Yeah

35:05 Speaker 3 ...was, uh-

35:06 Speaker 2 So the Rebbe called you over?

35:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. I, it wasn't far. I mean, like I, I, yeah, I, I said l'chaim. So the Rebbe, I don't remember how the Rebbe, I mean, how the Rebbe motioned me, but to come over.

35:19 Speaker 2 Hmm. That's unusual, no? Um-

35:23 Speaker 3 I would think so. Again, I wasn't there so often to know how usual it was.

35:28 Speaker 2 Was there anything like that when you were a bachur at Bedford-Indienne?

35:30 Speaker 3 In middle of a farbrengen-

35:31 Speaker 2 I don't know, something-

35:31 Speaker 3 ...the Rebbe should call me over and give me a piece of mezeines?

35:33 Speaker 2 No, I don't know. So, so something-

35:34 Speaker 3 That, it happened when I was a shliach, but, uh, not, not when I was a bachur.

35:39 Speaker 2 So when you're a bachur, you're part of the, part of the crowd.

35:42 Speaker 3 I was working to become part of the crowd. I can't even say that I was part of the crowd. I was like, uh... It took a long while until I stood by a farbrengen and actually, for the most part, understood something of the farbrengen, okay? Um, the, the, the first, I'm not gonna tell you how many years, but to be able to understand more than a couple of sentences was, uh... And yes, I, I was very envious of those bachurim that did understand and, and could understand.

36:12 Speaker 2 So you had friends that were able... Is it 'cause they had more exposure from before or is this, I don't know.

36:17 Speaker 3 Because they were more Hasidish.

36:20 Speaker 2 You're not talking about the language. You're talking about-

36:22 Speaker 3 No, no, no

36:22 Speaker 2 ...understand.

36:23 Speaker 3 I'm talking about, I'm talking about the understanding. Probably because they were more Hasidish, because they were bigger masmidim, because they were, you know, uh-

36:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. But eventually, so while, but while you're learning at Bedford-Indienne, at some point you already were able to pick up and be part of it and understand and-

36:41 Speaker 3 I remember the first sicha that the Rebbe said that I understood from the beginning till the end. I know the, the, the, the shaila, the hesber, the tzet and the hayikah dehiroah. It was a sicha on Parshas HaChodesh. I don't know if it was in, in B or it was in mamash Parshas HaChodesh in, uh, um, I should have Nisan. Das gedenk, nisht. And I've looked for the sicha a-a-and haven't been able yet to find it, but I, it's like I mean, I, I just-- And, uh, the Rebbe talking about the que-- the question the Rebbe asked was why, you know, Israel made a little... Why, why the first, um, mitzvah is, um, is, uh, about, uh, that we remain a little while on a Chayesh Hazeh. That, uh, that why it's, um, we, we have a lunar calendar, not a solar calendar. And it was Masper. The difference between a lunar and a solar is that the lunar is constantly changing, and the sun is a constant. Doesn't change. Unchanging. And the Eid goes up, but if you're going up, sometimes you fall. And when you fall, you could think that's the vision, that the m- moon, even after it falls, it comes back, and it comes back more each time. I remember that, not being able to un-- certainly at the time, not understanding that, but it can come back more. But And, you know, that a person should know that, uh, needs-- the first thing a Eid needs to know is that

38:14 Speaker 3 even if he falls, you're looking for fallen, there's no, you know, you can p- it's, it's like almost a part of, part of living is sometimes falling and knowing that you can pick yourself up and go higher and higher and higher. And I, I don't remember at the time what disaster I had, was facing or had just had or whatever. I, I failed a test. It was, I knew I was going to fail or... But I was like i-in a state of mind of that my life is over already. You know, I'm only fourteen years old to fifteen, whatever it was, and already, you know, it's finished. And I remember standing there and thinking to myself, "Wow, I do have a life left." You know, it was-- I remember walking home from... It's why I think that it was Pashas Bay because I remember, I'm pretty sure it was uh, one of those Farbrengens where we went to Mincha to Maariv in that day, Shabbos. Um, and because I remember walking home at night with, and seeing the Lavonne, another reason why it's probably not Pashas Achaidish, and looking up and, "Wow, yeah. I still have a life ahead of me."

39:22 Speaker 4 Nishkan Kleinigkeit, failing a test.

39:25 Speaker 3 No, no. Um, my problem was that I didn't realize how much of the Nishkan Kleinigkeit, but yes, definitely they never thought of it as a Kleinigkeit.

39:35 Speaker 4 Among Chassidim is brought to you by Chassidish Der Her. We live in a chaotic world, a world where for us Chassidim, as they say, "Nu, lo ra'inu," we do not have the ability to hear and see the Rebbe on a daily basis. Yet we know that the Rebbe is very much with us, and the Chassidus Chabad is alive and thriving more than ever before. One needs to only tap into it. Chassidish Der Her provides you and your family with the tools necessary to tap into all of this, whether it's the monthly magazine, the way it all began, whether it's Der Her books, Der Her online content, and so much more. Men, women, and children throughout the world benefit and use these tools on a daily basis. Whether it's children enjoying the children's magazine that comes along with the regular Der Her or enjoying the children's podcast. Whether it's Bachrim in Yeshivas receiving the Der Her. Whether it's girls in high schools enjoying Der Her Club in their local high school. People all over the world and from all walks of life enjoy and utilize these tools and take advantage of it. If you're not already subscribed to the Der Her monthly magazine, do so today at derher.org. That's D-E-R-H-E-R.org. Der Her is a dynamic organization which is committed to continue providing these tools, grow on a constant basis, and do all that we can to help this effort. Baruch Hashem, it takes a lot of resources and finances to make this all happen. You can

41:28 Speaker 4 be part of Der Her through your financial support as well through visiting our website, derher.org, or through contacting us to setting up a meeting. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. So you're already ex-- so you're experiencing as a bachor the effect of, uh, what you're hearing from the Rebbe. It's, uh, it's, yeah, it's special. I don't, I don't know if, um, I don't know as many adults-

41:53 Speaker 3 You know, in those days, we didn't even think of ourselves. You know, I don't know. I can, uh, my, I think, think of myself, not of ourselves, but as bachrim. Bachrim are older bachrim, okay? We were kids. I mean, mishefdi, you're a kid. You're not a bachor, you know? The, the, in my head at least in any case. You want to be a bachor. You, uh, you, it's, you gotta imitate bachrim. You have to... But you knew you ha- wanted to imitate bachrim, and you knew this is pas nisht if you want to be a, a pnimiy, but a chitzon definitely, you know, is, uh, uh, imitates alter bachrim.

42:28 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

42:28 Speaker 3 Okay. It's, you know, ain't a mess that should... Until you take and become a Chassidus bachor if you're gonna do that imitate. So worse things to imitate.

42:39 Speaker 4 Hmm. And in those years, the, the bachrim your age had Yechidus for their birthday, right? You had Yechidus?

42:47 Speaker 3 I did. Yeah, yeah. Um, and, um, without going into the entire story because it's, it's, it's farbrengen. Um, and the-

43:07 Speaker 4 Some people say-

43:08 Speaker 3 And as there-

43:08 Speaker 4 Some people say this is a farbrengen.

43:10 Speaker 3 Yeah, I understand. Okay. Um, but as long as this is iced tea and not mashke, it's going to be a podcast.

43:17 Speaker 4 No one wants the mashke.

43:22 Speaker 3 With, with the Rebbe, to be able to-- gave me a, a very, um, difficult job. Basically, that I should undertake Um, um, This was an answer in writing.

43:52 Speaker 2 So you, you-

43:53 Speaker 3 The Rebbe said to me, underlined twice. underlined once. To make up, to deter-- with, with great determination to learn with intense effort and constancy. And it was like, "Can I say I'm going to?"

44:29 Speaker 2 This is an answer on a question that you had.

44:30 Speaker 3 Right. Yes.

44:31 Speaker 2 And this is like a tonight-

44:32 Speaker 3 Yes

44:33 Speaker 2 ... the Rebbe gave you?

44:33 Speaker 3 Yeah. And I, uh... It was like, uh, uh, you know, I couldn't, but I knew I had to, and I asked again. And the Rebbe said, "I answered you already." Like, "Are you gonna do it or not?" I, I remember the feelings at the time. It was so... The first, "I answered you already." Like, but, uh, this was al-almost a year ago. How does the Rebbe... Like, you know, honestly, I wasn't even sure if the Rebbe knew who I was at that age, and but in fact, I, I-- the Rebbe's telling me exactly, you know, "I told you already. Why, why are you asking me again?" And the Rebbe said, "Are you gonna do it or not? Like, wh-why are you asking again? You're the one that has to answer, not me." And the Rebbe was looking down and waiting for me to answer yes or no.

45:37 Speaker 2 So the first time was in and the second time was ?

45:40 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah. And the Rebbe's looking down, and he's waiting for me to answer. And I was like, I stood there. It, it felt like two hours. I mean, it-- like I didn't-- To talk to the Rebbe and now to answer, you know, a, a question like this, I mean, it was like... Un-until finally I, with, with my last almost, I, I managed almost imperceptibly to nod my head just, uh, like wh-- And the Rebbe's looking down, and, and as soon as I, like, moved my head a drop, the Rebbe looked up. I don't know if it was with a smile. I don't remember a smile, but I do remember it was like upon him. Like, you know, a very... And he said to me, "If you'll just remember that you promised me, you'll certainly be able to do it." And at that point, it was like, the Rebbe's making a deal with me. Like, who am I? And the Rebbe's now saying there's, there's like a-- we have a, a transaction going on here. Y-I-- You promise me, and I'll give you You'll, you'll be able to do it. That, that promise is going to make, make, make you able to do it. Now, what, what does it mean? Why would the promise make me able to do it? Because the knowledge that... And the Rebbe-- here's where the Rebbe is investing in this partnership. Know-- With the knowledge that if I don't do it, the Rebbe will be disappointed, and if I do

47:21 Speaker 3 do it, the Rebbe will be happy. In other words, the Rebbe's saying, "You are now someone who's important to me." And I couldn't-- Like, me? I, I don't remember how I, I, I... I remember nothing else of what the Rebbe said. I don't remember how I left the room. I, I just, I was so... I, I guess you might say, and I've said it before, that that's when I began to understand that the definition of a Hasid is not someone who believes in the Rebbe. You don't have to be a Hasid to believe in the Rebbe, okay? You have to wear brains and you believe in the Rebbe. A Hasid is somebody who recognizes that the Rebbe believes in them, and he acts on that belief. And that's, uh... Um, no, I'm not gonna answer your question. Did I or didn't I? But, uh, gets irrelevant.

48:33 Speaker 2 And did this feeling you had then, what you're describing, you think was this-

48:37 Speaker 3 That was right. That... Oh, oh, the becoming a Hasid. No, that, it's already, you know, uh, as it developed. I mean, at that time I just like... From that point on, my re-- I, I realized that my relationship with the Rebbe is not a theoretical one, and it's not a communal one. It's a personal one. It's a personal relationship that is... And, and everything that followed, it was based on that understa-- feeling, understanding, recognition that a, a Hasid is not one of Hasidim. A Hasid is a Hasid. A Rebbe is not a Rebbe of Hasidim, of Klal Yisroel. He is all of that, but he's my Rebbe, and I owe him. He gives me, but I owe him. And, uh, I owe my .

49:41 Speaker 2 Interesting. So this, so this was a important, uh, point in the-- that, uh-

49:49 Speaker 3 I, I s-- You know, I, I, uh... It was a, a paradigm shift, let me call it that, to the extent that, uh, fourteen or fifteen-year-olds have paradigms. But, uh, certainly it, it's the one with which I, I try to live.

50:07 Speaker 2 Okay. So let's continue with this. Uh, now that we have that i-in mind, so we understand, you know, your, the w- your way, your viewing things then, so we can continue. Um, ultimately, I believe that, uh, so you were in Bedford for X amount of years.

50:30 Speaker 3 So I was in Bedford for four years. I'm sorry, six years. F- Um, actually no, it was five because I skipped a grade. I skipped two grades. I skipped two grades. So I was there four years.

50:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

50:48 Speaker 3 And then from there we went to Newark, which is today Morristown, but then it was Newark.

50:53 Speaker 2 That was in yeshiva then?

50:55 Speaker 3 Yeah. So it's certainly from Bedford is the next step.

50:58 Speaker 2 'Cause you're too young for Seven Seventy.

51:01 Speaker 3 Yeah. So it was two years in, in Newark, Bnot Israel.

51:09 Speaker 2 Yeshivat was in Newark.

51:10 Speaker 3 Yeshivat.

51:10 Speaker 2 And then Melach was in Newark.

51:12 Speaker 3 And Melach. Actually, the first year, so Rabbi Schneur was also there. He was the mashgiach, and then he became rosh yeshiva. Um, and then after, um, two years in Newark, uh, I guess I was afraid of Seven Seventy, uh, you know, in terms of learning. That that was, uh, just, uh... I, I'm not gonna defend the, def-defend the, uh, decision, although, I mean, of course, I asked the Rebbe, but the Rebbe was like, without a q-- It, it-- I didn't get an ambiguous answer. I got a very-

51:51 Speaker 2 What did he ask the Rebbe?

51:52 Speaker 3 If I should go to Eretz Israel.

51:54 Speaker 2 So you're saying you're not gonna defend the-

51:57 Speaker 3 Maybe I should, I, but, but I wa-- I, uh, actually went away from the Rebbe for two years, okay? I, instead of spending the next two years in Seven Seventy, I spent the next two years-

52:07 Speaker 2 So in hindsight, you... I'm asking-

52:10 Speaker 3 Uh, it's, you know, people say hindsight is always twenty/twenty. I don't necessarily feel that way. Um, yeah, in, in hindsight, I regret not being by all those farbrengens. Um, in hindsight, how do I know that I would have actually been the bachur I should have been in Seven Seventy with all of the temptations for, uh, being, you know, wasting time that, that exist there. Um, and that Baruch Hashem and I, I didn't necessarily have-- Well, I didn't have the, the, those types of temptations. I hope that, um, because of that, I was able to tackle learning masmado with Shkurer Rebbe. But, uh, it was, uh-- So I'm not gonna say... I, I, I regret part of it. I don't regret the decision, and I, I was in Yechidus before I went to Eretz Israel. After Yom Tov, I was in Yechidus again, so personally. But it was right before I went, and the Rebbe said to me, among brachos, the Rebbe said to me, "Time to see it in Eretz-- Time to see it in time Yechidus. Remember, you're not going to Eretz Israel, you're going to time Yechidus." And so I should be batsim chamisa.

53:23 Speaker 2 When you went to the Rebbe, there was options. You just asked the Rebbe if you should learn it, so.

53:28 Speaker 3 There's options, you ask yourself, did you want to go to Seven Seventy?

53:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, you wrote both.

53:34 Speaker 3 Sure.

53:34 Speaker 2 Hmm. Okay. So you went there to Sierot HaChabad. So this is-

53:43 Speaker 3 That was sheva lamad.

53:44 Speaker 2 So this is post-- No, so this is Rosh Chodesh, it's still there.

53:47 Speaker 3 Yeah.

53:48 Speaker 2 So you learned there by Rosh Chodesh.

53:49 Speaker 3 I learned by Rosh Chodesh. I would say if I have any yirat shamayim, and I'm not going to say I have any yirat shamayim, but to the extent that I may have some yirat shamayim, it's because of Rosh Chodesh.

54:01 Speaker 2 So what was happening at Israel? Rosh Chodesh, the bachurim, what was going on there?

54:06 Speaker 3 Uh, there was learning midda v'midda with farbrengen, what else-

54:08 Speaker 2 So what was their, um, their n-- Like, when you saw that Israel, the bachurim, they were like your s- your speed, or they were like, uh, they're from a different world than what-

54:18 Speaker 3 Um, there were those that were my speed, and there were those-

54:22 Speaker 2 I mean, uh-

54:23 Speaker 3 Different world, but that was where I was.

54:24 Speaker 2 You, you grew up by the Rebbe-

54:27 Speaker 3 Yeah

54:27 Speaker 2 ... for years. You know what's going on. What was, like, the Israel, the bachurim like?

54:32 Speaker 3 You know, I'm gonna give you a, a hagdola that I think is very important to understand. I am firmly of the opinion that the bachurim today are far better, shetlen at zach echer, than the bachurim in my time and bechalal the bachurim up until Gimel Tammuz. In other words, the bachurim post Gimel Tammuz be-- I-in a-- call it, are far more Chasidish, emisdike, primisdike. Things that we strived for, by them, it seems second nature almost. And the reason that, you know, the, the, the-- Of course, obviously, it's counterintuitive, you know. They grew up, they didn't see the Rebbe, they weren't by the Rebbe, some of their parents weren't by the Rebbe. You know, and, and, and, uh, never were by farbrengen, never Yechidus, never by dollars, never, never davened by the Rebbe, never... And yet, giba kuk. A-and, and you would think, and certainly that's what we thought on, on Dalet Tammuz, that it's over. You know, if you don't have, you don't have-- You're not, you're not by the Rebbe's farbrengen and you're not by the Rebbe's, uh, kashat bracha, and you're not by the Rebbe's davening, and certainly by, not by the Rebbe's Ch- Yechidus or even answers, so how can you be ca-- be a Chassid? And give a cook, Hasidim, Mekubalim and, and even more than before. Why is it? And again, there's no such thing as a, a rule without an exception or even many exception, but as a rule. When I was a bocher in our time, before Tuv

56:27 Speaker 3 Sh-- Tuv Shin Daled. The definition of a Hasidisha bocher began with he's not gonna miss a farbrengen. He's not going to miss even a davening if it's possible. Certainly not, uh, a Yom Tov. Kal Vacheme, B'man She Kal Vacheme, Asim Hasdecha or a Yud Shvat, and later Yud Aleph Nisan. These are like-- And the more that that, that yungerman, I'm not, not talking about bocher. The more that bocher, the more that kid was a-attached to that, okay, to, to running for Mincha on a weekday because how can I miss Mincha, okay? Even, you know, to, to run away from Ma'ariv because there's gonna be a sicha even though you can hear the Ma'ariv on Ma'ariv too, but with haste, you know, it's like, you know, out. Maybe there's gonna be a sicha. That's a Hasidisha bocher. Problem, of course, is what was he thinking about the farbrengen? What was he thinking about the sicha? Take a daven by the Rebbe, and what kind of davening did he daven by the Rebbe? The only one that knew that was the bocher, no one else. That did not go into the e-equation of how others defined that bocher as Hasidisha or not Hasidisha because the case. Today it won't happen like that. The definition of bocher is not whether he was by the Rebbe's minyan. The definition of a, a Hasidisha bocher is how is he davening. It's n-not you were by the farbrengen. It's saying over the farbrengen. It's not, um, you know, the being beGashmius

58:14 Speaker 3 close. It's being beruchnius close. It's pashut being beruchnius close, and there is no Gashmius other than to the extent the ayel of seven seventy, but it's not even there. To be close in s-- in seven seventy, to be close in by the ayel, to be close to the Rebbe, you have to be close. And you know it. You, you can't fool yourself into thinking, "Ah, just because I came to the ayel." What, what are you, what are you thinking about in that? You know that. So automatically it becomes a, a, a, an entire... And of course, with haste, the not to long for the days of the farbrengen. But that longing, part of that longing is because then it's so much easier. I just gotta show up to the farbrengen. I did it. Today-

59:14 Speaker 2 It's a lot harder

59:14 Speaker 3 ... I can't just show up to the video. I have to actually listen and understand the chazzan over and live by it, which is a whole different, uh, area.

59:26 Speaker 2 It relate very much to what you're saying. Um, you know, i-in my times, I was a bocher not, not so long ago, you know, over a decade ago. But in the big scheme of things, it's not so long ago.

59:42 Speaker 3 You're one of the bochurim I'm talking about.

59:43 Speaker 2 Okay. Um, no, it's in-interesting that I noticed that, like you're saying, that you couldn't have a very Hasidisha bocher, especially in the later years, that might have been by the farbrengen but didn't understand or wasn't-- can't tell you what the Rebbe said. And that's when I was a bocher. If you're a Hasidisha bocher, you had-- if you watched the farbrengen, you have to be able to repeat it to your friend and talk about it in order, in order-

1:00:13 Speaker 3 You weren't, you, you don't go to a video-

1:00:16 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:16 Speaker 3 ... to say, "I was by the video."

1:00:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:18 Speaker 3 Okay? I mean, the only reason you go to the video is to listen, to understand. And, uh, okay, to the extent that now you live by the heros that the Rebbe said by the farbrengen, okay. That's where things become a little bit more difficult, a lot more difficult and a bit more complicated. Other-- it goes that, I mean, you know, it's like

1:00:39 Speaker 2 So it's a lot harder.

1:00:40 Speaker 3 Of course, of course.

1:00:42 Speaker 2 It's a lot harder.

1:00:42 Speaker 3 Of course. Oh, up until the hero part. Up until you're by the hero, okay. Because if you're by the farbrengen and just stood there, then the heros are not going to be on your head in the same way that when you were by the farbrengen that you were listening to, and that you were... And, and, and, and, and internalizing, okay, and then, you know, when you walk away from that, you are going to be di-- acting differently. There's no getting away from it. Uh, again, uh-

1:01:08 Speaker 2 You're saying the hero part was easier before?

1:01:10 Speaker 3 Um, forget.

1:01:11 Speaker 2 Oh, now it's easier.

1:01:12 Speaker 3 Why it's easier, I don't mean the, the actual work is easier, but easier to make the chaloite to, to actually do the work.

1:01:18 Speaker 2 'Cause I think, I think, I think the, the galus today is... The galus part is like, you know, the Beit Hamikdash. You know, everyone came b'ezrat Hashem just to show up. And I think the galus today, you know, the post-Kimat Hamot is, frankly, nowadays, like when you access it, it's a lot deeper, but it, you, you have to... I-it's not, it's not as accessible as just, just showing up. You can't just show up 'cause if you just walk in seven seventy, then-

1:01:49 Speaker 3 Atheists like those in the last ma'amar that the Rebbe gave up, Vavat Hatzara, that the tzirur afikim of the fact that the, uh, uh, the Alkus is Behester, and that even when we live in a, a beGashmius And , okay? In a beautiful world with s-easy... That it helps you with all those things. from the galus, okay, that causes of, of galus, the idea of galus, okay? We're not even in-- We don't feel exiled per se, begashmiyus, okay? I mean, anybody who wants to go to Israel. But the galus that we're in, that galus, that causes is bigger even than the causes of the, of Yemei Haman or of, of that where, where it was even begashmiyus. Those aren't words that we heard before Gimmel Tammuz or for before Gimmel Tammuz. Those were the r- the last mamish, it's the end of the Ma'amar. It's, it's, it, it's that part of the Ma'amar, there's no question. But that, that's why it's the Rebbe's tzvah. Why, why, you know, the t-the, the t-tzvah and tzvah is not just a, a nice words put together. It's-- That is the Rebbe's tzvah. And, and, and that's exactly what the Rebbe is saying. Okay, this ti-- this month that we're in right now, the tziracha, the causes that were poshit in galus and that, that poshit was, that there was a Gimmel Tammuz, that's the highest type of causes. That's like a

1:03:35 Speaker 2 It's okay? Sounds like a pun. So back to the I had mentioned about the bachur in Eretz Yisrael.

1:03:43 Speaker 3 Ah, so now we come to the bachur in Eretz Yisrael, and you ask me the same kind of So no, they didn't know what the Rebbe said last week, okay, or even two weeks ago. And they, they didn't know what's going on in 770 like I know what's going on in 770. They were certainly never in the Yechidus. They were never by the Rebbe bachur, many of them, most of them, the vast majority of them. But it wasn't By the-- They lived the Rebbe. But the, their living the Rebbe was actually a more primitivistic living the Rebbe. The-- Okay, because it was living the Rebbe. The Rebbe said, "Learn the Rebbe's Torah." Living is doing, a-acting on the Rebbe's horos, okay? The Rebbe said to go on Mivtzoim. Mivtzoim in Eretz Yisrael was more a, a, a inyim, uh, that is, um, poshit. Everybody went, and everybody did, and it was like In those days it was basically tfill, okay? But much more than in America. Much, much more than the bachur that was sitting by the Rebbe.

1:04:54 Speaker 2 So you-

1:04:54 Speaker 3 But because in Eretz Yisrael, that was the biggest kesher to the Rebbe, okay? Mivtzoim was the kesher to the Rebbe.

1:05:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:05:02 Speaker 3 It was the Rebbe's thing. You know, you'd do, do this all day, but also okay? But with Mivtztion.

1:05:14 Speaker 2 So you saw like a deeper... Whatever, different type of keshers.

1:05:18 Speaker 3 Am I, am I telling you that that's exactly the way I processed it at the time? I doubt it. Um, but I mean, it certainly subconsciously, yeah, that was the... I mean, I looked at them as I mean, they're certainly not less than me, and for the most part, more than me.

1:05:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, maybe you could tell me a little bit about the Rabbi Chaim Kesselman.

1:05:47 Speaker 3 I can tell you that, that the Rebbe once said, discussing the bachur, "Az iz, voz oluch ton?" What can I do? "Az a chabad nur einh shlem Chaim." I only have one shlem Chaim to be able to send. I can't send the whole world. Okay, so like, um, everything else is not that. Now, well, well, Rabbi Shlem Chaim, you could see Rabbi Shlem Chaim lived the bachur. The bachur were his life. And he, and he knew every bachur. And he, uh, he-- But he was a Chassid. I mean, a, a Chassid that, that lived Chassidus, okay? The Chassid that, uh... One of, one of the things he said at okay, in the hospital, and he wasn't, uh, uh, he wasn't, uh... He had to sit up, you know, so they had like a couple of pillows behind him so he should be able to recover. And at said, "So many years I didn't sleep on a pillow," "So now they give me," oh, like it's like a, "Look, look what happened to me." It was like, you know, that, that, that kind of... He, he didn't make this announcement. This is, that's-- He said obviously to someone, uh, but, you know, to, to even have such a musing. Uh, a-a-and he, uh... I, obviously, I heard this before. I mean, as most of the ganey, but it-- But it's Rabbi Shlem Chaim

1:07:41 Speaker 2 If I bring him out.

1:07:42 Speaker 3 Ach, ach.

1:07:44 Speaker 2 But begashmiyus is

1:07:46 Speaker 3 Yeah. Begashmiyus is I mean, obviously, okay, you'd have to but what, what that even looks like. But, um, but a bachur once wa-was buying by the Shabbos table, and there was a bottle of soda on the table, and the bachur didn't take it, and he He m-made him drink the soda. Okay. So it's like as a, as a

1:08:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:08:16 Speaker 3 Okay. You know, to, to... That you, you authentically, not, uh, as in it should be a- Shtreimel once was being ‹metire› here that he'd seen, maybe it was not because of that. We remember what he saw. I don't know what he saw, but a bocher eating a sandwich, and he's ‹metire› how the bocher, uh, ‹shtup, shtup› against outside, ‹shtup›. Like, it, it was, it was ‹otzar›. What was he ups- upset about? That his mouth can't open wide enough to be able to push the whole sandwich in at the same time, and he has to, and the way he was ‹metire› it, like it was a, the air of a ‹kachit›. But I have to tell you, I didn't stop eating sandwiches, but I don't have the same ‹gefil› for a sandwich. When I eat it, there's always that, you know, little like, what are you doing?

1:09:04 Speaker 5 Guilt.

1:09:04 Speaker 3 Guilt.

1:09:07 Speaker 5 Uh, interesting. But you never heard this from Reb Yael.

1:09:13 Speaker 3 No. But no. Honestly, no. I, I, I mean, I never heard anything from Reb Yael that would in the slightest way, um, imply that it was not important or not a ‹chelek ikri› of, of Chassidis, okay? It wasn't-- there was no quote and negative towards it. But that wasn't what Reb Yael, uh, was, um... Reb Yael was the Rebbe. Reb Yael was the, the ‹ibru gegem chaid›. Reb Yael was the honesty, okay? Reb Yael is the authentic-authenticity. ‹Pnimius›, not ‹nisht Chassidishe geshtek›. Which is, you know, it's like, it's easy to act like you have a ‹skafia› when you don't. That's the downside of ‹skafia›. In other words, you can push something away. I heard it from a ‹melech› one time, and he said like this, he said, "You have two bochurim in yeshiva. They're in the same yeshiva. One bocher says it's a good yeshiva. The other bocher in the same yeshiva, the same ‹shiv›, the same whatever, it's a bad yeshiva." How is it possible? He says, "It's very possible." S- The, the two of them are sitting opposite each other by supper, and one of them i-is not eating half the food on the plate because ‹pushke makur food›, ‹tzedek yeshiva›. The other side is sitting a bocher, and he doesn't eat half the food on his plate because he's probably ‹skafia›, very much like the internet. Now they each see the other, so he looks over and sees that this bocher is probably ‹skafia›. It's a good yeshiva. The other bocher wants

1:11:00 Speaker 3 to have some. This one's looking over here and says he also doesn't like the food, okay? This is a lousy place, you know. Not only am I broke, but everybody's broke. So, you know, it's like you-- by the actions don't actually show what's happening. Um, and a Chassid is not somebody who lives-- My father-in-law, when he was a bocher, he said he shouldn't say in Yiddish, but I heard it from him, not from others, okay? So I'll say it. So my Zeide come once to Seven Seventeen, early in the morning. Those days there was no planes. There was no planes, but you didn't go on a plane. And, um, so he's, he's sitting on a train the whole night, and then, and then a subway at seven seventeen, and he comes into the zal, okay, seven, seven thirty in the morning, and Rebbe, he's not there. I'm, I'm sure he's not there. He's not, he's not sitting and learning there.

1:11:54 Speaker 5 Who can-

1:11:54 Speaker 3 My Zeide.

1:11:55 Speaker 5 Oh, your Zeide.

1:11:56 Speaker 3 My Zeide comes into the zal. Zal comes at seven thirty in the morning.

1:11:59 Speaker 5 Zeide.

1:12:00 Speaker 3 Zal ‹men eshlah›. Somebody, I should say, somebody say he's probably still in Domtrez. He walked down the street to Domtrez. There was a apartment on the corner of Troy, I think. Whatever. He, he walks in, make sure it's like, yeah. He's like, he's doing what a bocher does, you know, when Monday, when he go to sleep late, okay? He sees, and he says to him, "What's it ‹zeide› there? What's gonna be with you? Do you ‹eisvaksen a›..." Uh, uh, and he's looking for the worst thing you could say, "Do you ‹eisvaksen a hitzen›?" You'll, you'll grow up to be a ‹hitzen› if you, this, with this kind of behavior. There's nothing worse than that. It's, and it's not just that this is what my Zeide felt. He was talking to his ‹kor› about, in, in a way that he wanted him to understand how terrible it is. So, so at least I'll compare him from, from one perspective or another. My, my friend should have been able to relate to that because that's what you're supposed to be, a ‹pnim›, not a ‹hitzen›, okay? And if you're a ‹hitzen›, it's not-

1:13:06 Speaker 5 And okay. So, so Mecham also used to talk about ‹reitz yatzivua›?

1:13:10 Speaker 3 Sure, he'd talk about it. It's not just talk about ‹reitz yatzivua›. First of all, he used to daven. That's different. And without a question about davening, we, you know, to how to daven and how to ‹taksis› on daven and, uh, ‹am izol tachmak sis› on daven. Uh, but it was, um... Yeah, yeah, daven. Okay. I, I remember I was there one year, Rosh Hashanah. And I, I remember a, a young man comes in Rosh Hashanah by night. A young man from Chabad. And he sits down to daven Maariv, and he was crying. Pushke crying for hours. And if I would've seen something like that at Seven Seventeen, I mean, a guy's supposed-- Something like that at Seven Seventeen, there would've been towels thrown at you. And here it was, it was, it was normal. In other... Not that it was normal that you saw a lot of it, but the, the, the presumption was not difficult to make that he's for real. I, I don't know what goes on anybody's side other, barely my own. But, but that was the atmosphere there. Was an atmosphere where, where, you know, some, uh, uh, crying for hours, but on the other hand, uh, every night is Rosh Hashanah, the first night of Rosh Hashanah. But, but the, you know, the notion to daven, he would talk about, you know, the, how, um, and it's difficult for a bocher. He, he, uh, he davens longer on, and during the week. And then he comes downstairs and there's no

1:15:02 Speaker 3 more breakfast left. You know, he's left, uh, that's like it's a double thing 'cause I is feeling bad for the bocher davening that has no breakfast, and he's also feeling upset that all of the other bochurim had a good breakfast. Why? Because they didn't daven. So say they didn't daven and say they had a good breakfast . It was a-- That was the, the atmosphere. Did everybody daven? Did I daven? But, uh, um, the davening was in the air. Davening was part of the curriculum. It was a major part of the curriculum. A major part of the program, let me say. It's hard to make a curriculum for davening other than just learning chumash. But, um, and he would koch zach. There was a, a, um, bocher, Baaltshuva. His name was Matziv. Those that live in my days know what, know which Matziv, and this is It's gonna grafika mit. There's no zayn gezunter shtark. I mean, he's young, but he's having two seasons, no less a chossid today than he was more than he was then. And he used to trachtz his far davening. And Shelem HaChaim is said over to the Rebbe in Chidus, by Yitzchak Goldman, he came. He said there was-- The Rebbe like print out his hands, says, "What? Bensa trachtz zidis. Bensa trachtz zidis."

1:16:23 Speaker 6 Bensa?

1:16:23 Speaker 3 Bensa, yeah. Yeah. Because Shelem HaChaim called him Bensa. But, you know, it's like the Rebbe-- And, and Shelem HaChaim's like zach koachen in him later, you know.

1:16:33 Speaker 6 There's koachen in him.

1:16:34 Speaker 3 Yeah. I, I hear it. I mean, yeah, obviously. But, uh, more than once, maybe he didn't when the bocher was actually there. Um, or, or I, I, I remember once when he did, when the bocher was there, and how the bocher was like so, you know, I can't imagine Shelem HaChaim wanna make a-- But, uh, but, but Bensa trachtz zidis, you know. It was a-- The, the-- Obviously, giving Shelem HaChaim the tire kaved that it, that it has by the Rebbe. And this was still in the days when there was not unusual to have that undercurrent of, but Reb Shelem HaChaim was not the makosh of Chabad. He never came to the Rebbe. I'm told Yitzchak Telushkin, Telushkin Ahmed, he never came to the Rebbe.

1:17:16 Speaker 6 The guys in the bochrim would speak about it or-

1:17:17 Speaker 3 Oh, nach vi, nach vi. I mean, I, I don't think it wasn't a deadly thing, but there was certainly, there were many was some, you know-

1:17:25 Speaker 6 Mm-hmm

1:17:25 Speaker 3 ... makosh to Shelem HaChaim for that reason, you know, chossid, chossid, happy being chossid, not being by the Rebbe. 'Cause it-- Never-- And Shelem HaChaim never addressed it. It was like, you know, they would, they would just come to the Rebbe, but we need to have some mechas that's against the Rebbe, tell the zarf.

1:17:39 Speaker 6 You tell the bochrim.

1:17:40 Speaker 3 Yes, you know. Either, you know, by a farbrengen or, you know, alone. And bochrim would say, "Oh, Shelem HaChaim is a factor." Shelem HaChaim, you know, bocher himself, you know, the premis, the, uh, the mashpia, the, the Rebbe. But now, kapo nim, only after the yugas came out, okay, and you see, uh, uh, the, all the letters, okay. You, well, you don't see Roshon Chaim's letters, although some of them now we do have, okay. But, uh, the, the Rebbe's letters to him, how, you know, there are no, you can't come, no, you can't come, no, you can't come, no, that. Azar tzich bet no chanand to be able to come, and the Rebbe didn't let him. Never a word.

1:18:16 Speaker 6 He never defended himself.

1:18:17 Speaker 3 Never defended himself.

1:18:22 Speaker 6 And I heard from the-- When he came, Yitzchak HaChalam, and there was a tabringen afterwards.

1:18:27 Speaker 3 Nissen and, and Shelem HaChaim, and Bensa, that was the three, uh

1:18:33 Speaker 6 And, uh, Shelem HaChaim was apparently st- talking very strong words of, uh, of the skachshas and alav to the Rebbe then that night. You were there?

1:18:45 Speaker 3 No.

1:18:45 Speaker 6 I heard about it then, I don't know.

1:18:47 Speaker 3 Yep.

1:18:48 Speaker 6 But where were you, Yitzchak HaChalam?

1:18:51 Speaker 3 I was in Chabad.

1:18:51 Speaker 6 Oh, you were in Chabad . Okay. Uh-huh. Okay.

1:18:58 Speaker 3 That I can't, like, get over.

1:19:00 Speaker 6 You can't get over that you missed it?

1:19:01 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:19:02 Speaker 6 Did you go-- Did you stay there for two years, or you came back and forth?

1:19:05 Speaker 3 No, I did not come back.

1:19:06 Speaker 6 You came for two-- You were still there two years straight.

1:19:08 Speaker 3 Well, a year and a half, yeah. It was about, yeah.

1:19:11 Speaker 6 So then you put-

1:19:12 Speaker 3 Didn't have money. I mean, it was like plain and simple. It was the-- I, I've asked my par- my parents didn't have money. It wasn't-

1:19:18 Speaker 6 Okay, so we got one full regret that you were-- that you missed the Yitzchak HaChalam.

1:19:22 Speaker 3 Oh, more than one. But yes, that's a definite, uh, schvetze that kums nich.

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1:21:06 Speaker 7 So you decided to go back to San Severino. You asked the Rebbe what, what, what was that?

1:21:09 Speaker 3 Well, first of all, Rabbi Chaim was niftar. Um-

1:21:14 Speaker 7 While you were there?

1:21:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. I think either Lag BaOmer or the day after Lag BaOmer. Let's see if there's... No, probably this. Lag BaOmer can't come on a Friday, right? Uh, actually, I'm not gonna figure it out now. Yeah. So I came back to San Severino. Actually, my sister was getting married then also.

1:21:38 Speaker 7 You asked the Rebbe about it?

1:21:40 Speaker 3 Yeah, of course.

1:21:41 Speaker 7 Okay.

1:21:43 Speaker 3 Um, you wouldn't get on an airplane to go to and from Eretz Israel in those days without asking the Rebbe first or over, over an ocean. I mean, it's not a... So of course. Um, it was to come back to, to, um... Actually, it was-- I didn't know it at the time, it was actually to, uh, to get married. Um-

1:22:12 Speaker 7 So your sister was getting married?

1:22:14 Speaker 3 Right.

1:22:14 Speaker 7 Yeah.

1:22:15 Speaker 3 That was the ostensible reason for me to-

1:22:17 Speaker 7 So then you wanted to move over to San Severino to learn.

1:22:19 Speaker 3 Right.

1:22:19 Speaker 7 The same, the same thing.

1:22:22 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:22:22 Speaker 7 And you're saying that that ended up becoming a shidduch. Okay, so tell what happened.

1:22:27 Speaker 3 What happened was I, uh, met my future wife.

1:22:29 Speaker 7 Go ahead. Uh, I mean-

1:22:33 Speaker 3 Um, there was, there was such a shidduch was, uh, shidduch was proposed, and the Rebbe pushed it very strongly.

1:22:41 Speaker 7 What do you mean the Rebbe pushed it?

1:22:42 Speaker 3 That that, uh, should happen as quickly as possible.

1:22:44 Speaker 7 So what-- Can you, can you elaborate what happened?

1:22:46 Speaker 3 Yes. Uh, the first time it was proposed, there was-- I was still in Eretz Israel-

1:22:49 Speaker 7 Who proposed? Who proposed?

1:22:50 Speaker 3 I don't remember exactly who was the first one that brought it to the Rebbe, but it was, uh, it was brought to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe was very much in favor of it, and to the point that they should send somebody to Eretz Israel or find somebody that could talk to me in Eretz Israel and ask me if I wanted to get married.

1:23:06 Speaker 7 So while you were back in Eretz Israel-

1:23:08 Speaker 3 At the age of nineteen.

1:23:10 Speaker 7 At nineteen.

1:23:10 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:23:11 Speaker 7 The Rebbe is sending... Who did the Rebbe tell this to?

1:23:15 Speaker 3 Probably my parents, I imagine. My parents.

1:23:17 Speaker 7 They sent someone to Eretz Israel.

1:23:19 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:23:19 Speaker 7 So the Rebbe was pushing for the shidduch.

1:23:22 Speaker 3 Yeah. And I, uh... So it was actually my aunt who was in Eretz Israel then. So she asked me if I wanted to get married. So I thought she was like-

1:23:33 Speaker 7 The Rebbe was very clear that it should-- action coming from him.

1:23:37 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Yeah. She wouldn't sit just to ask the question. So I, I, like... So I, I, I gave the answer, you know, "No." Like, and not "No," with like res ha'alef, but "No" with a question. "Are you out of your mind? I'm nineteen years old. No, I don't wanna get married."

1:23:57 Speaker 7 It wasn't common to get married early then.

1:24:00 Speaker 3 No.

1:24:01 Speaker 7 No.

1:24:01 Speaker 3 I didn't know anyone in the Elem HaZeir who would get married that early.

1:24:05 Speaker 7 Sure.

1:24:06 Speaker 3 Anyway, so I just answered, "No," and that was... But now that I was coming back, so the Rebbe brought it up again, and-

1:24:12 Speaker 7 The Rebbe brought it to your relatives?

1:24:13 Speaker 3 Not to me, no, to my parents. And, and my mother said to the Rebbe, "Er, er, er, ru machs lerne." And he was like, "No, so I'm twenty," but I was like, you know, the Rebbe went like this with his hand, "Learn lache chassid." You know what I'm saying? "That's not a reason. Learn lache chassid." So I got married.

1:24:39 Speaker 7 So I have a question. This has something to do with you, something to do with your wife. Do you know the detail, the, the... Do you understand-

1:24:46 Speaker 3 I don't think-

1:24:47 Speaker 7 Any understanding das tachlis, do you understand-

1:24:49 Speaker 3 Uh-

1:24:50 Speaker 7 What was going on here?

1:24:51 Speaker 3 I-- Das tachlis, I have no understanding whatsoever of why. Other than, well, I was too early. I, I cannot... I, the-- I do understand from a very s-- very Balabat-ish perspective, which was while I may have been far younger than the common age, my wife was not younger than the common age. My wife was already in the age of shidduchim.

1:25:15 Speaker 7 She's the same age as you.

1:25:17 Speaker 3 She is a little bit younger than me. Less than a year. You know, but so for her, you know, nineteen years old is very, you know, common then.

1:25:30 Speaker 7 Yeah.

1:25:30 Speaker 3 So I'm guessing the Rebbe wanted the shidduch, so that's why the Rebbe... There's no reason to wait.

1:25:38 Speaker 7 So you didn't really learn in San Severino.

1:25:42 Speaker 3 No. Um, I did manage to get at least a little bit that, you know, so I wouldn't have to make the chassuna right away. So I got to push the chassuna off till, um, till older. This was, um, um, Sivan Tammuz, it was Tammuz already, and so I got to push off, off, off. I, I got it to push off, and so I at least tried to make it to my semikhah before that.

1:26:07 Speaker 7 You asked the Rebbe this thing about, um, doing semikhah before.

1:26:14 Speaker 3 I don't remember if I asked the Rebbe or if my, my parents asked the Rebbe. I, I do remember, though, that that was the-

1:26:21 Speaker 7 So when you a-- By, by the time you went out-

1:26:23 Speaker 3 And si- so since I was learning for semikhah, so there, there was no one in the zal learning it, so I, I used to just sit in the cheder with my shvager, and he learns there.

1:26:33 Speaker 7 But so by the time you met your wife, like for shidduchim-

1:26:36 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:26:37 Speaker 7 Uh, I mean, you obviously knew her from before 'cause she's your relative, but you knew then that the Rebbe was pushing it.

1:26:47 Speaker 3 Um, not... I only-- I knew that the Rebbe knew of it. I did not know the Rebbe was pushing it. And I assume that... I didn't hear it exactly shidduch this way. I've never asked my parents, for instance, something like that. But my assumption is that even then, the Rebbe didn't want me to know that it, you know, that- The Rebbe said to my father, or to parents, that they should talk to me right away. So they should talk to me right away. Uh, what? So, um, the Rebbe said, I don't mean right away tonight. You can wait till tomorrow morning.

1:27:49 Speaker 7 No, it was, it was urgent.

1:27:51 Speaker 3 Uh, as far as it was concerned. Actually, my father told me later that actually somebody came over to him that morning after-- It's not after, that day in seven seventy and wanted to know if he could talk to my father. Yeah.

1:28:09 Speaker 7 So okay. So let's see. They had the behind the scenes is, is for-- is pushing the shidduch. So you got married at twenty.

1:28:19 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:28:20 Speaker 7 When you're married. So I guess they convinced you.

1:28:25 Speaker 3 Um, no. I mean, they convinced me, um... Yeah. I could, I could say the moment I knew that the Rebbe knew about it, that they're asking me that it didn't have to be the Rebbe was pushing it or anything.

1:28:42 Speaker 7 Right.

1:28:42 Speaker 3 That was enough. The Rebbe knew about it, obviously. You know, it's not like the issue of whether or not I should get married is not a question now anymore. The only thing left to me is claim-- is who to marry, and here's a suggestion. Actually, the Rebbe didn't say my wife and mother said, "Okay." Rebbe's like, "Okay. So we'll make it. Done." You know, when, when the Rebbe was brought it up again the second time, the Rebbe went, "No." So the Rebbe said, "It's not for you." Yeah. I should-- It should be my decision otherwise.

1:29:13 Speaker 7 So the status was that someone, someone mentioned it to the Rebbe. That's how it started, right?

1:29:19 Speaker 3 It-- Meaning the Rebbe wanted, I think should-- I don't think there ever was a situation like that.

1:29:24 Speaker 7 Right.

1:29:24 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:29:25 Speaker 7 Someone did. I just interviewed the-

1:29:28 Speaker 3 Everyone interviewed sometime-

1:29:31 Speaker 7 Yeah

1:29:31 Speaker 3 ... as a result of course someone mentioning it to the Rebbe.

1:29:33 Speaker 7 Right. Right. Uh, so you got, uh, so you got married. Where did you get married?

1:29:42 Speaker 3 We got married in Nashville.

1:29:45 Speaker 7 In Nashville?

1:29:47 Speaker 3 Got married in Nashville, and then I was in Kollel for two years. When I left Kollel after two years, I was still the youngest one at the Kollel.

1:30:02 Speaker 7 Hmm.

1:30:08 Speaker 3 And, um, then we wrote to the Rebbe. No. I went, went into Yechidas and asked the Rebbe. I told him, "We were going to the Rebbe, we want the Rebbe should send us actually . So the Rebbe said that we should go into Marcus.

1:30:41 Speaker 7 This is the Yechidas. What Yechidas is?

1:30:45 Speaker 3 Yechidas, it was, uh, after two years in Kollel or towards the end of two years in Kollel.

1:30:49 Speaker 7 Like a, like a birthday Yechidas?

1:30:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:30:51 Speaker 7 You went in with the wife, with your wife. Is that right?

1:30:53 Speaker 3 Yeah. And we should-

1:30:57 Speaker 7 You didn't have children yet?

1:31:00 Speaker 3 No, we had Yossi already.

1:31:01 Speaker 7 Yossi, okay.

1:31:04 Speaker 3 And-

1:31:06 Speaker 7 So Yossi was with you in Yechidas.

1:31:07 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:31:07 Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

1:31:09 Speaker 3 So we went to the Yechidas. So the Rebbe said we should go to, to, to Marcus.

1:31:14 Speaker 7 You asked-- You wrote it to the Rebbe shlichas?

1:31:16 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Asked the Rebbe shlichas, we want the Rebbe shlichas.

1:31:22 Speaker 7 So second-- Pause for a second.

1:31:23 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:31:24 Speaker 7 People were going on shlichas then?

1:31:27 Speaker 3 Everybody.

1:31:28 Speaker 7 People.

1:31:29 Speaker 3 There was, there was, yeah, quite a few people.

1:31:31 Speaker 7 That was the thing. People were going on shlichas those days. But you're talking about

1:31:44 Speaker 3 But the Rebbe, there was no-- Rebbe didn't send any shlichas.

1:31:47 Speaker 7 There was like a Yechidas or there was-

1:31:50 Speaker 3 Well, the-

1:31:50 Speaker 7 The, the-

1:31:51 Speaker 3 People were going on shlichas to other shluchim, but, uh, shlichas that Rebbe, you know, the, the Rebbe-- that Marcus would send, I mean, we finished with Marcus. Marcus would send a shliach that stopped.

1:32:04 Speaker 7 Mm-hmm. Okay. So you went to ask the Rebbe, and Rebbe said-

1:32:07 Speaker 3 The Rebbe said to go to Marcus. Well, not Marcus.

1:32:09 Speaker 7 To Marcus.

1:32:11 Speaker 3 It was the same person, but, uh, um, well, they You should see that it should be good, even materially good as well. In other words, comfortable. Even though ruchnius, okay, the spiritual place you're at is the main thing, but when you're in a comfortable place materially, you have a head for spiritual things.

1:32:49 Speaker 7 So the Rebbe is saying that the shlichas should be a gashmius take a good shlichas. What, what's the Rebbe saying?

1:32:54 Speaker 3 It would seem so, yeah, that, you know, the, the shlichas should be in under terms that are, that are good or that are comfortable. My wife, when she heard that, was devastated. Um, you know, like, "What does the Rebbe want from us? We should be thinking about gashmius?" She took it, mamish, it's like zehr mumaylah that came on her for... I went from Yehudis straight into Rabbi Kadikof. Well, I, I make a, I, I don't mean literally the minute, but I went, that same night. And my wife was walking up and down on Eastern Parkway with the, with the stroller and just trying to make, uh, to come to terms with this terrible zehr that she, she had. She, she hoped that maybe after ten years, the rebbe will call us in, say, "Now I wrote the zehr. You don't have to have anymore." So we went to Kadikof, and Kadikof is matzya, um, a certain place, Amherst actually. So he said, "Okay, we're going."

1:34:04 Speaker 7 To Amherst, Massachusetts?

1:34:04 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I said, "Okay." Yeah. So he smiles. He understood, you know, what my, where my yes came from. You know, if you get a hatzah from Rabbi Kadikof, you don't say, "I wanna think about it," or, "I wanna talk it over. I wanna..." So he said, "No, mishtazeh gate, sir. I'm not asking you for an answer. What I'm asking you is to take this... I'm giving this to you as a hatzah, a suggestion, but there may be other suggestions out there. So get them as well, and then write them in, and the rebbe will decide where." Or anyways, write them in. Okay, so I sort of let it be known that we were open for suggestions. I think we got s-thirteen or fourteen different, uh, hatsahs, if you will, from literally all over the world. Friends from Australia, from America, many. So I made the whole list, and I wrote them into the rebbe with the-- Obviously, Amherst is at the top of the list.

1:35:23 Speaker 7 You wrote to Rabbi Kadikof at Amherst?

1:35:24 Speaker 3 Yeah, sure. I sent it with him from America. He had... And the, the rebbe answered that the zehr now is that you pick bomakom she'ibeh chafetz. And since, "Vayishana od bomnei mitech bonav," so, um, you know, do it, so therefore pick where you want to go and learn about it. My, my Yemen called me up and said, "It's a beautiful answer from the rebbe." And I come to seven seventy, and he shows me the answer, and I wanted to like, you know, "Ugh, what?" And, um, we asked the rebbe, said, "The rebbe says, 'Go to Kadikof.' Kadikof said-- told us what, what, what, what hatzah is. Now the rebbe is saying we should decide one." And my Yemen says, Yemen sees that I'm not, uh, happy. So, "Do you know what's-- Do you see what's going on here? The rebbe rufed your zein hamakin. The rebbe is calling you benai." And, and what? Like, the rebbe is calling you benai. And I said to him, "The rebbe is calling me benai, the rebbe is not calling me. I want the rebbe to tell us where to go to shlichas. Why-- I want to pick. What do I know where Hashlifas is?" But what am I gonna do? But my wife was like, "Now it's this." You know, not one zehr, but now a second zehr. So my wife wrote to the rebbe, basically with this, you know, what, what the rebbe, he should pick.

1:37:06 Speaker 7 One second. It, it-- I think the, the rebbe, the rebbe did choose the people, right? Yeah.

1:37:12 Speaker 3 Not at that time, no.

1:37:13 Speaker 7 He didn't? Okay.

1:37:14 Speaker 3 Look, the rebbe said he didn't, okay? I, I... You asked me if I'm keeping the cheit min of-

1:37:18 Speaker 7 Okay.

1:37:21 Speaker 3 So I, uh, we-- my wife wrote to him, you know, basically, we, we, we don't know where to go on shlichas. We want to be-- We want to go on shlichas. The rebbe wants us to go on-- the, or the rebbe's sending us, you know, not... The rebbe answered her that I should send in the list again. Send in the list again. So I sent the list in again. So the rebbe circled three places, and he said I should find out more peratim about these three places. One of them was actually, of course, Amherst, and two other places. I should find out more about these places, pros and cons or whatever. More peratim. Is it more peratim, these places? And to send it in. So I did. Sent it in. The rebbe came back to Amherst, obviously. So that's, that's how we got to Amherst. And the surrounding area. We said Amherst and, and surrounding areas.

1:38:20 Speaker 7 So what was shlichas like, hashlamim, bimum?

1:38:23 Speaker 3 Well, let me tell you what, how it starts. So you come to Amherst for the first time. Mamish to see the place, you know, to... And I'd say, "You have to talk to people." So we talked to, it was something called the Amherst Jewish Community at the time. The Amherst Jew-- Amherst then, even still now, was, is just a college town. It has-- Amherst has, like, five colleges, three in Amherst and another two in adjacent towns. And so the Jewish community was just basically professors, teachers, professors, people you're connected to. Um, and I, uh, made an appointment with the president of the Amherst Jewish Community. And I come in and I explain we're making a chabad house, and we want to... And, you know, could you give me some advice, you know, how to... You're, you're here, you know. I mean, he said, "My advice, my advice is you should go back to Brooklyn." That was my welcome to, uh, to Amherst. It wasn't easy. Um, but I didn't come by myself. My wife and I didn't come by ourselves. We came with the rebbe. And, uh, we had hatzlacha in ways that were, like, labayim bekiya mashua. It was like just even... We started, we rented a house right next to the campus. But it was more of a bungalow than a house. The front was one big room that was the kitchen and the living room and the dining room and my office and the shul, and this is all one not very

1:40:08 Speaker 3 big room. And then two bedrooms behind the half a wall. So that was like, uh, that was the first we rented. But then we found, and with, with the Rebbe's brachas, there's no other way of saying it, uh, a beautiful building, house, like literally on the campus. Uh, surrounded on three sides. And, uh, within less than a year, we were able to buy it. We've got, uh, Baruch Hashem. And, uh, it was never easy. Um, I can't say, I'm not quite sure what gashmius the Rebbe wanted us to have, but the way it's conventionally defined, I can't say we had a lot of it in, in Amherst. Um, o-on the other hand, you know, uh, it was-- there's no place to raise money from in Amherst because there's no community to speak of, no Jewish community there. So we had to go, you know, it was always, uh, it was always a struggle, um, getting kids into the Chabad house. Um, in those days, a Chabad house was a minyan. That's the first and foremost, okay? Obviously a minyan Shabbos, right, on Friday night Shabbos. And, uh, but during the week also, say something like a minyan, you know. It's like... So at the beginning, we had Monday and Thursday was, uh-

1:41:39 Speaker 8 You looked at a Chabad house as like you have to make a shul, make a minyan.

1:41:42 Speaker 3 Yeah, not just the minyan. Okay, obviously the, the meals and the, and the classes and the, and the programs and... Oh, programs, there weren't a lot of programs. I mean, like the generally the Purim thing, for instance, you know, Purim thing. The Purim thing was generally Purim. With a, with bukadre. Um, but, um, we had Baruch Hashem, um, I'm going next week to a chasuna of someone whose father wa-became a Skver in Amherst, and whose mother became a Skver in Amherst. And you could imagine, I mean, the boy is a bocher today. I mean, uh, not the first in his family. Baruch Hashem next week. And he's marrying, of course, into one of the quote blue-blooded families of Chabad. And, uh, and it's, um, shluchim. I'm, I'm sure he'll be a shliach as his older siblings are. Most of his older siblings are. And, uh, so it's a-

1:42:52 Speaker 8 So they definitely-- The nuchnis you definitely saw.

1:42:54 Speaker 3 We saw. We see. We continue to see. But gashmius, we've always had what to eat. We didn't necessarily always have the money with which to buy it, but ultimately you got to the table.

1:43:08 Speaker 8 So what were-- I'm saying this is a general question also about your leaders, shlichas. Um, what was the attitude? The attitude was, it's like today people are, you know, they're, they're-

1:43:25 Speaker 3 In my kiddush.

1:43:26 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm.

1:43:27 Speaker 3 Not everybody want gashmius.

1:43:29 Speaker 8 I'm talking about the money part.

1:43:30 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:43:30 Speaker 8 That, that was my question.

1:43:31 Speaker 3 I'm sorry. What do you mean?

1:43:32 Speaker 8 What was the attitude of... Today, I feel like people are much more like you have to have, you have to raise, you have to spend according to what you have. Seems like then the whole thing was lomai lo, v'derech hatava, like with business. No, it, uh, it was that a bit designed or was that-

1:43:49 Speaker 3 Before I could go to Amherst, Rabbi Khodakov wanted signed commitments from three or five balabatim that they would help support it. It wasn't, it wasn't with money amounts, but that they would support it. He wanted signed commitments. So I had to go find five balabatim. I have to mention Rabbi Edelman was in Springfield at the time, who was more than helpful. Um, he himself used to give shiurim in Amherst from time to time, and so that was the connection. And his eidem, Zalman Dayich, alav hashalom, um, was very much involved in getting this going. He helped us, you know, tremendously. He was the one who came to Rabbi Khodakov, asking Rabbi Khodakov if they should send somebody.

1:44:45 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm.

1:44:45 Speaker 3 Okay. So he was-- And he was, you know, obviously he was important. But that was not enough. Khodakov wanted to have, um, five, I think it was five or four, whatever. Because I had to go to the list of people, um, um, s-- uh, Rabbi, I can't make this commitment. I said, "I'm not asking for any money amount. I'm just asking to sign a piece of paper that you're gonna help." And, and he accepted the, the, the commitments as it were. And I, I was right in terms of how much it takes, right? And, um, but, uh, so yeah. So, so it wasn't-- But it was supposed to be on, on a basis of, of, of, uh, reality as it were of, you know, not just perech es ba'avir. But, um, but no, we, we started with very little in terms of practically knowing where a salad is going to come from. Khodakov gave me a, a good piece of advice about to raise the money, which was that I should s-since I'm a shliach of Merkos, so I get fifty percent discounts from what I'm buying from Merkos, that I should sell subscriptions to Talks and Tales and schmooze, and, and half of the money will go to me. So like it's, you know, a dollar twenty a year it cost them or something like that. Forty and I can get for each subscription, I get a dollar twenty. So, I have to sell ten thousand su-subscriptions of and I'm, I'm on easy street.

1:46:11 Speaker 8 You can't find ten thousand people.

1:46:13 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:46:13 Speaker 8 You know this. But, but my, my question is, well, ultimately ha- me- me looking back at, you know, this is, uh, over thirty years ago, yeah?

1:46:27 Speaker 3 I, I, I, which year was ? So, among the things the Rebbe said was to, uh, make camps also camp. Or maybe it was a separate thing from camps. Um, some, somehow it's in my head that it was and so we wanted to open a day camp. And we went to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe said,

1:46:58 Speaker 8 There's not money for it.

1:46:58 Speaker 3 There's to be money for it. Okay, for me, you know, money for it means there is money for it. It's not in my account, it's put... The money is there, it's in the bank, and I-

1:47:05 Speaker 8 So you-

1:47:06 Speaker 3 So we opened a camp.

1:47:06 Speaker 8 So you did a camp?

1:47:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I, I opened a camp.

1:47:10 Speaker 8 So that's my question. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

1:47:12 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:47:12 Speaker 8 Trying to figure out-

1:47:13 Speaker 3 No, there was no money for it. And, and yes, I was left with at the end of camp, okay? Um, and you know what there wasn't then that there is now? The notion to go into ask our for our million dollars did not exist. It was, I mean, yeah, it existed, but not this-- There's no such thing. And so it was-- Or, and now, again, I- I'm talking about myself and I can't extrapolate from there to everyone else, but the, the notion that you can do big things when looking around at other shluchim that preceded me, I didn't see it so vividly. There was one Shlomo Kunin, but, um, but I, I don't, I can't become a Shlomo Kunin, you know. It's, that was not my, not my speed. And it wasn't just a question of my speed. It's like he is the but you know, it's... The Rebbe was screaming, and we were still, you know, Um, and it took a while till, you know, our eyes opened up to realize what the Rebbe's, not just what the Rebbe's asking from us, what the Rebbe's prepared to give us.

1:48:41 Speaker 8 But you f- I'm saying, but you felt during your years of shlichus that you have a mandate to go and do more than you can, way beyond what you think you can do. And that, that was clear to you always?

1:48:55 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:48:55 Speaker 8 And that's what you did.

1:48:56 Speaker 3 Yes. Yes. When I'm buying the Chabad House, okay, it's we got-

1:48:59 Speaker 8 Right. Yeah

1:49:00 Speaker 3 ... we got, we got the down payment.

1:49:02 Speaker 8 Right.

1:49:03 Speaker 3 But, you know, I... Or maybe even the mortgage I knew that it was gonna be covered. So it was that part. But for me, the, it just the undertaking such a kind of thing was beyond me. But, uh, the Rebbe said, Um, but, you know, even is a, is a whole another kind of thing. And, and it's true. Rebbe says, um, you know, we'll go there. Okay? If he tells us to. And the Rebbe was telling us to.

1:49:47 Speaker 8 So this is a-

1:49:47 Speaker 3 But I just didn't realize the Rebbe actually meant it, that we could actually do it.

1:49:52 Speaker 8 You could, right.

1:49:53 Speaker 3 Yeah. That we can actually do it.

1:49:56 Speaker 8 But this was the amongst shluchim at that time that, you know-

1:50:02 Speaker 3 You know, the, the going on shlichus was still, the essence of going on shlichus was It wasn't n- It was not the default position. My-- Yes, I grew up, it was the default position. It was never a question by me. But that many of my classmates did not, was not, uh, you know, uh... And why? 'Cause, uh, uh, I heard it from more than one. "I, I couldn't do what you're doing. I couldn't do it. It's too much. I, uh, how do you do it?" You know. "How, how do you know what, where's anything's gonna come from?" So, uh, and, and, and then what th- that was in a, in a very real way compared to what the atmosphere at the time was. Today, something has to be madder not to go on shlichus. Okay? Everybody, obviously some that, that can't, but it's, it's certainly, you know, it's not like, "Wow, wow, he's going on shlichus." It's, "Yes, he's going on shlichus. I mean, it's like okay? Uh, but it's, uh, uh, today the, the means a million-dollar building. What, what are you, crazy? Okay.

1:51:31 Speaker 8 Twenty million.

1:51:32 Speaker 3 At least.

1:51:34 Speaker 8 Did you ever write to the Rebbe about the hardships, the financial hardships and, you know, for the shlichus and the and things and... You never, you never complained to the Rebbe that-

1:51:43 Speaker 3 Never.

1:51:45 Speaker 8 Why?

1:51:46 Speaker 3 What for? Why would I write to the Rebbe about it? If this claim to the Rebbe, th- I'm complaining that I'm not doing my job. The Rebbe said I'm gonna write to the Rebbe it's not good Hello. How, how... Of course it's good The only problem is I'm not doing everything I need to do. I'm not working the way I should be working. I'm not... I was on a podcast once, not, uh, a year ago. This is not my first podcast. And the, the person asked me about Amherst and said, "Do you..." Uh, yeah, I, we moved from Amherst eventually to, to Stanford. And he asked me, do I feel that I was successful during the fifteen years that I was in Amherst? So I said no. So he said, "Why not?" Because Moshiach didn't come. If, if I was successful, Moshiach would have come. And that's-- So why didn't Moshiach come? Because if Moshiach doesn't wanna come, Moshiach doesn't come because we don't-- we're not doing everything that we needed to bring him. And, you know, if I was, then, then he would be here, and, and that was success. So it is complaining that-- complaining I don't have money is almost like, "Hello, Rebbe, you sent me on shlichus, but I'm not doing much shlichus. Can you help me here?" Uh, uh, that, that was one letter I was gonna write. Very And I, I'm not gonna say that it didn't kvetzh. Of course, it kvetzhes, okay? But it wasn't, it wasn't unusual.

1:53:41 Speaker 3 It was-- I didn't think it was an unusual thing that needed... I mean, yeah. It's, that's part of golus, you know. It's not, it's not something wrong. It's not something wrong, and it's not something... I never for a second questioned, should I really be on shlichus? Like, maybe, maybe this isn't for me. Like, that was like saying, "Maybe I shouldn't be a human being. Maybe I should become an airplane." I mean, you know, it's, I'm, I'm pre-- That's-- This is who I am. A shliach. I, I hope that I have given my children some of that because I didn't make it up myself. I mean, I got it from my parents, from my, from my grandparents, from... I, I always sort of read the Alter Rebbe as saying, "This is what I want you to be." That's, you know. What's a shliach ultimately? What a shliach is, is kol kule is the eisefir in the Rebbe's ratzon. The Rebbe's ratzon is kol kule eisefir in the Rebbe's ratzon. Now, what's Yiddishkeit if not that, those two things? Well, you don't have to be kol kule, or it doesn't have to be kol kule in a revealed way. Yeah, you could be a baal eseck and also k-kol kule doing what the Rebbe's doing. The Rebbe needs baal eseck, okay? But, you know, it's, it's like there's one step removed, you know. The business itself is not the shlichus, okay. The business is the means to be able to get the tsadkah to give to, to,

1:55:16 Speaker 3 to the maiseh that there's actually the chull, or just to give you so you should be able to have two days a week off to your shul or mesivta, whatever. But the eseck is not the shlichus per se. But, um, here you have the opportunity and the Rebbe should

1:56:39 Speaker 8 Okay.

1:56:41 Speaker 3 Does it come with hardships when... Yeah, there may be some kind of hardships, but you know what? This is golus. But therefore, chinuch your children.

1:56:58 Speaker 8 Okay. So-

1:56:59 Speaker 3 Having said that-

1:57:00 Speaker 8 Yeah

1:57:00 Speaker 3 ... I want anybody who left with the impression that that's what shlichus was, hardships. On the contrary. I could say I think Baruch Hashem, the zol sein a gut bagashmies. You know, we've reached a place where Baruch Hashem, it's a good bagashmies. I'm not saying there aren't the challenges and difficulties becholo, okay? But, um, my worries are, I've reached a stage w-where the Rebbe said, "As a good bagashmies,

1:57:48 Speaker 8 I'm saying this is not a mitzvah, but, uh-

1:57:50 Speaker 3 It's not a mitzvah, and, and it's not talking about buchsus. We're not talking about, uh, being able to take a, you know, a couple of months a year off and, and St. Thomas or-

1:58:00 Speaker 8 I'm saying it should be that the zechus this mesirah is not. You know, this is, uh-

1:58:05 Speaker 3 No, no, no, no. And Baruch Hashem, today, it's, uh- One thing that has changed dramatically, I think, is, of course, the, the, um, general gashmiusdike, uh, s- of, of, matzuv of shluchim today is not-- There are, I know there are many that are still struggling pashut b'gashmius, you know, in terms of paying the mortgage and, and things like that. It, it, uh, but it's, it's, uh, it's not, it's not a standard. Once upon a time, it was a standard, you know. It was like that, that, "Oh, thank God, it's, it's a holiday, so the bank is closed." You don't hear that as Baruch Hashem as much. Um, it's pashut, pashut. There's-- I, I guess after Reb Menachem was, whoever it was that, you know, was holding that handle, you know, to keep from the flow of ruchnius be turning into gashmius the way it's supposed to be. Whoever is holding the handle can't hold it that t- hard because the Rebbe is there, and the Rebbe makes sure it's turned the other way. Baruch Hashem, we get even more than we deserve.

1:59:16 Speaker 8 Hey, Halev Hayesh.

1:59:16 Speaker 3 Uh.

1:59:17 Speaker 8 Halel gezak.

1:59:18 Speaker 3 Halel gezak. Halel gezak.

1:59:21 Speaker 8 Okay, so let's go back to the story a little bit. So you, um, were in Amherst. You're also in Springfield at a certain point.

1:59:27 Speaker 3 Yeah, Springfield. Our, our children went to school in Springfield, so that was, yeah. We are obviously in the community.

1:59:34 Speaker 8 How far is it?

1:59:37 Speaker 3 About forty-five minutes. Forty-five.

1:59:39 Speaker 8 So at the point you were living in Springfield, but you-

1:59:41 Speaker 3 Then what happened was, at one point, um, my wife was also teaching and then became assistant principal of, of the school in Springfield. So it just made more sense for me to commute, you know, than for my wife and, or my wife and children to commute. So we moved to Springfield, and I would go every day to Amherst, and every Shabbos my wife would go to Amherst and move in for Shabbos and come to things of that sort. It was also at one point that, um, there was a teacher's strike in Springfield, so I came up with the idea of pushing kids into the, uh, into the yeshiva because, you know, we were able to get quite a few kids into the day school in Springfield. And once the strike was over, many of the kids, unfortunately, went back to public school, but we had a connection to them. So we said, "Well, let's open a Hebrew school." And we did. And so I made the Hebrew school there, and it was, it was very successful.

2:00:54 Speaker 8 In Amherst.

2:00:55 Speaker 3 No, no, in Springfield.

2:00:56 Speaker 8 In Springfield.

2:00:58 Speaker 3 And, um, it was Baruch Hashem, uh, it was so successful. The chazan in the, uh, the conservatives temple tells me a story that one of the women there came over to him and was telling him, "My children, they love Hebrew school. Oh, they finally-- They thought it was so good. They love Hebrew school." So I said, "Okay, look, are you sending them to Chabad?" "No, but they're here at the temple's Hebrew school." People understood, you know, that-

2:01:32 Speaker 8 Chabad.

2:01:33 Speaker 3 If it's a good Cha- it's a good Hebrew school, it means we're talking about the Chabad Hebrew school.

2:01:37 Speaker 8 So you're the first one that started it. I think it's that standard today. Um, so how did you end up-- Uh, so how was-- What was the move to Stamford? How did that-

2:01:46 Speaker 3 Oh, that's how it went because we just-

2:01:48 Speaker 8 To Stamford.

2:01:48 Speaker 3 We, we-- Oh. Oh, to Stamford. I'm sorry. Um, actually, one of the shluchim that I brought to, um, s- um, to s- Amherst after two years and, you know, it was to expand or, you know, he wanted a place himself. And again, the subject came up of maybe to open a Chabad house in Hartford. And, uh, when the question came to the rabbi, Rabbi Chodakov said that, you know, I should-- Connecticut is my responsibility.

2:02:26 Speaker 8 You knew that Connecticut was your responsibility?

2:02:28 Speaker 3 What happened was, yeah, I, I knew. I learned it was my responsibility, actually, because I would get telephone calls from Rabbi Chodakov from time to time of situations that are in, um, Connecticut to-- of I could see to take care of. And then when the question came up of moving to Hartford-

2:02:50 Speaker 8 Got it, got it.

2:02:51 Speaker 3 So as, as, as whatever Rabbi Yehuda says, you know. So, you know, it's my responsibility. So obviously, he did, and it's Baruch Hashem today. A very, very successful shliach with many shluchim that he himself has brought in the Chabad houses, that he himself has put Sukkah centers, that he himself has opened it. Uh, I, I'm not his boss. He, he-- I'm his colleague. Okay, but in any case, at one point, um, I got a telephone call from Rabbi Chodakov, and this was like about a situation in Stamford, you know. I should see to take care of it. And this was a, um, a biggie, and I have to deal with rabbis that live in... So I asked, um, the Rebbe if, if we should open maybe a Chabad house in Stamford, which was the only city at the time, it's big city that had, had no Chabad center. Well, actually, it was Chabad in, in, in Hartford. Of course, Nahum was the yeshiva there, and, and, uh, Rabbi Heck was there. In Stamford was nothing. There never had been anything of Chabad. So I asked the Rebbe. The Rebbe said it's she'a echt to make his yannik, you know. So I called up. I, I asked, called Rabbi Chodakov. So he said to call me back in a couple of days. I don't remember what it was. Or to-- I may have to come to him in a couple of days. Yeah, because I remember I was still in his office. And I came in,

2:04:29 Speaker 3 and he read me from a tzel about several things. Uh, but, uh-- And then he said, "In, in terms of whether you sh-- of what, what needs to be done there and wh- whether or not you should go or you should open." That's what I said. The question was should I open a Chabad center or should I bring somebody else to open a Chabad center? I should, I should go bring somebody else to Amherst, or I should, uh-

2:04:58 Speaker 8 Place on the land.

2:04:59 Speaker 3 Over in Stamford. So he said, "That question we are leaving up to you." He, he won't give me the tzel. I just, you know. So I understood that the way I read it was that I should because, but The Rebbe was gonna tell me to move to Stamford. Uh, that's-- I should-- To, to tell me to move from one place to another, that, you know, we'll leave to you.

2:05:30 Speaker 9 Mm-hmm.

2:05:30 Speaker 3 But talk upon the highest for Stamford is for yours, and you, you make the decision. I read his understanding. I understood it as I should, uh, move to Stamford and to bring other, another shluchim to take my places.

2:05:44 Speaker 9 I know, I know of other stories of other shluchim that had similar things, that they were in one place, but they had a big jurisdiction. So then they started, they were a few years working in this place, few years working-- I don't know if it's always moving, but, like, they're being piled in different parts of their jurisdictions. It's something that-

2:05:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

2:05:59 Speaker 9 -other people have also. Um, uh, so that's-

2:06:05 Speaker 3 It was, it was very much quote. It's coming, you know, it-it-not a word about The Rebbe said or, you know, it was like the, the, the closest I got of Rebbe was, "We are leaving." Okay, mir lozen. I'm, I'm sure The Rebbe was, that The Rebbe wasn't referring to Binyamin and, uh-

2:06:22 Speaker 9 Yeah. So but then you wrote to The Rebbe a decision that you wanna move to Stamford.

2:06:28 Speaker 3 An, an interesting thing is when I wrote this, The Rebbe said to check with Tzach also to make sure Tzach doesn't have any problems 'cause across the board. Actually, when I went to Rabbi Dov, The Rebbe, he didn't understand it. I'm like, "Of course not. Why should I?" I learned in the Tasaga School is something that The Rebbe was like, "Meet all of Tzach and we're sending him then, but make sure that Tzach is not, uh..."

2:06:48 Speaker 9 So The Rebbe said to check with Tzach. To check with the-

2:06:52 Speaker 3 To check with Tzach, of course I did.

2:06:53 Speaker 9 That's like right, it's right next to Westchester, which is Tzach.

2:06:56 Speaker 3 Weren't even there yet. Nothing was there. But yeah, so fish midtzah, yeah.

2:07:00 Speaker 9 New York, New York is Tzach.

2:07:02 Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

2:07:03 Speaker 9 There was no schlep in Wes- in Westchester at the time.

2:07:05 Speaker 3 Yeah.

2:07:09 Speaker 9 Um, so he says, "Mem ches?"

2:07:11 Speaker 3 Yeah.

2:07:12 Speaker 9 So you moved there mem ches.

2:07:14 Speaker 3 Mem ches.

2:07:16 Speaker 9 And-

2:07:18 Speaker 3 You know, it's an interesting thing we're talking about, uh, the, the, uh, lasagas and how you look and the chila river. So during this period when we were moving, until we got a place in Brooklyn, there was a sifri bezi year that I, uh, I was listening on a tape because I didn't hear, I wasn't there. And I was listening in on tape on the way from Stamford to, to Springfield. The Rebbe was talking about, one of the things Rebbe said as, you know, like The Rebbe's mother was a chila river, talking about pearl, when I think in pearl, often halls and shperls. So they, like, it's like the beloved pearl river. You're talking about pearls. We're talking about not pearl barley, but pearls on a necklace. That's the definition of a pearl. So and that seems like, and I felt it like, uh, okay, look, here we're going chila river, uh, in, in a, in a really big way.

2:08:30 Speaker 9 What do you mean?

2:08:31 Speaker 3 I don't know. We should start thinking the different kinds of us.

2:08:33 Speaker 9 Oh, you're saying here in Stamford-

2:08:34 Speaker 3 In Stamford, we're going to start doing it, you know, with a much bigger-

2:08:38 Speaker 9 'Cause that's how it happened, so.

2:08:39 Speaker 3 But it was, it had to happen. Uh, what we paid for our house in Stamford was three times how much we paid for the Chabad house in Amherst. Three times as much. I, I was like, you know, for what we paid for the Chabad house in Amherst, which at the time I thought was hard to get a garage here in Stamford. And, uh, but, but, uh, Baruch Hashem, it was actually, and I saw it like I had to get a mortgage, right? We, we bought our house, we had to get a mortgage. Baruch Hashem, from what we had our house in Springfield, we were able to for a down payment, but that was the down payment. I need a mortgage. Where are we gonna get a mortgage from? I, I was, at that time, it was hard for me to get a credit card, you know, with my stellar rating. And, um, somebody told me that there's a bank that has a Jew presence, a Jewish guy, and it's owned by a Jew, president Jew. Go in there, maybe it'll help. You know, maybe he'll-- This is after two places mortgage brokers, you know, I, I don't think was this what we're looking for. Anyway, so I walk into the bank. This was during the time, uh, for the, the, the elections in Israel, Darkei Lamaschiach.

2:09:56 Speaker 9 Yeah.

2:09:56 Speaker 3 And it was on the newspapers.

2:09:57 Speaker 9 They had the top of the government.

2:09:59 Speaker 3 They're at the top of the government. So, um, I come into the bank, and, uh, I said, "I want to meet with the president." He says, "Uh," I start telling him what we want to do, a Chabad center in Lubavitch. "Oh, Lubavitch. I see your guys on television all the time. I s-- Yeah, I see the rabbi on television all the... No problem. You know what? Don't even bother with the applications. As soon as you have what you need, okay, in terms of the, from, from the, the, the, uh, whatever, just come in here, okay?" I'm like, "Okay, good." And on my signature, he gave me the. After zevait, when it came to building our building, and they were not talking about, uh, a quarter of a million dollars, they were talking about three and a half million dollars on my signature.

2:10:47 Speaker 9 Same guy.

2:10:48 Speaker 3 Same guy on my signature. That, that was like a, a, you know, a-

2:10:56 Speaker 9 That was a thing clear.

2:10:58 Speaker 3 Clear, clear. And ultimately, he sold the bank and actually shut up, but it was like, you know, uh- If, uh, for anybody who is saying this, wants to know the name of the bank, sorry, it's, it's already been sold, and the bank that was sold has already been sold, so it's, it's gone. But, uh-

2:11:15 Speaker 9 I'll try to-

2:11:15 Speaker 3 But the berachos haven't left, Chas v'Shalom. They, they, they keep coming.

2:11:19 Speaker 9 Mm. Um, and I know also when you were in Stanford, y- you're physically closer proximity to New York, and then you brought people dollars, kind of, um-

2:11:33 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

2:11:34 Speaker 9 And, and I met-

2:11:35 Speaker 3 Absolutely, yeah

2:11:35 Speaker 9 ... I meet people here that tell me that they regret they didn't listen and go with you, uh, that they had the opportunity, they didn't, but there are many people that did.

2:11:44 Speaker 3 There are, there are. And, uh, and, and berachos came along with it. And, um, it's so close, unfortunately... Well, I, I, sometimes I feel guilty how close it is. You know, it was, uh, the closest in Amherst, the closest I was and feeling close was that what, Motzei Simchat Torah, I could get there in time for Keriat Shema and Brachot. And if it was a very rough on brain, and it was sometimes to the end of it. But that, that's the most I would have from, other than the month of Tishrei, that I would have from Tishrei. Um, and even that felt guilty, like, but, you know, I was always by Keriat Shema and Brachot, Simchat Torah. And then, you know, obviously coming for Shabbos was a possibility. That wasn't as easy when you're farther away. So, you know, during the week.

2:12:43 Speaker 9 And over the years, were there herois that you got to Min Hagev, the shlichus that you-- Like, how did it work? There was like, do you ask the Rebbe, like, major questions? Do you talk about Chanukah? Like, how, how, how was the, what was the say there when you were trying to figure out what to do?

2:13:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. Generally, major questions, you know, should we buy a new building? Should we, uh, bring another shliach? Should we go to the Rebbe? And lesser issues would be to Rebbe Chabad. Or what in my mind is lesser, not lesser. On the other hand, right at the very beginning, it wasn't long after we moved to S- to Amherst, and Rebbe Chabad for instance, that I write a doch. Not of days, but of hours. You know, it was what, not more than doing this day or this week, but certainly at the beginning, um, I, I was careful about it. But later, it became an issue about Tfilot and not Sefarot. But, um, but so-- And then one of our children was not well and had to be in the hospital. Some kind of, uh, respiratory infection. It's nothing, uh, but in principle, I couldn't be alone in the hospital. We had a baby at home. So it would mean that I had to be in the hospital or at home, and it was gonna be, you know, the doch wasn't gonna be talking about the next week's Torah is gonna have, you know, big blank spaces there. So I wanted to know, but call up to explain the blank spaces before they happen. So I called the Rebbe Chabad, and I told him with a few, "This and this." So then there's quiet on the line. Then Rebbe Chabad says, "Es iz a sichere zach a der kind iz nisht gevaren nisht gezunt k'dei a du zolst

2:14:45 Speaker 3 zoln makn besefesh." It's definite that it's-- the, the reason that your child is not well or became unwell and has to be in the hospital so that you should have pain and anguish, that, that, that's not the reason. The only reason could be why it is, is because you have a shlichus in the hospital. So go find it and do it. So that was a, officially from Rebbe Chabad, but, uh, you know, the pause gave me on the phone made me... As far as I'm concerned, it came from the Rebbe directly, and it was, uh, stuff that doesn't happen bad, so things should be bad. The only reason stuff happens that looks bad is because your shlichus is in a place that otherwise you wouldn't be because other than this, but you're there for this, not so that it should be bad.

2:15:44 Speaker 9 Is this something that you thought about later on when there were other hardships?

2:15:49 Speaker 3 Constantly. Constantly. Um, and not even just of the hospital kind, which unfortunately there were so many of this kind. But, uh, when, when our Shloime was not well and in the hospital, it was in Sloan Kettering, six or something. And, uh, I-- for some reason, my wife mentioned that she was going to call Aba or to call Aba to get a berachah from the Rebbe before, maybe it was before a procedure or something. So he looks at her and he says, "I'm not the only one that needs a berachah from the Rebbe. All of the other children on the floor need. Get, get their names and ask for a berachah from them as well." I don't think he was six yet. Maybe he was already six. Okay. But, you know, basays te. I'm not here to, to... Everybody here needs a berachah. Not just Yiddishe kinderlach need berachos. Not Yiddishe kinderlach also need berachos. That was his. Hmm. Um, and but- It's, it-- Do I say that that's what pops into my mind the first thing when a challenge arises? I wish it was. But when I start th-this on why is God picking on me, uh, about, you know, whatever it is that's happening, I realize that that's not exactly what you heard. What you heard is, why did God pick you? Okay. In other words, He picked you because it's your shlichus. Now go do it. Or go find it and do it. So obviously it's not, our shlichus isn't necessarily obvious.

2:17:50 Speaker 9 Hmm. Okay. I think, uh, with that note, we have what to work with.

2:18:00 Speaker 3 Well, I hope that you have with what to, um, also relax with because I not meant-- I-- Nothing I said was meant to make anybody feel guilty. It was meant to make people feel how good they, they are and how much better they can, all of us can be.

2:18:19 Speaker 9 Okay. I, you know, I actually have one question before we finish. So you're talking about Tachna L'mitzvah, right? For over fifty years, your shlichus. How do you perceive-

2:18:34 Speaker 3 That was Tachna L'mitzvah. Okay. This is Tachna L'mitzvah Dalet.

2:18:38 Speaker 9 Still over fifty years. I mean, not many people have experienced the whole... I mean, that's not the, the shlichus started in, you know, in the youths. But you're seeing it, you know, from, from a, like a-- When you look at it, when you look at it from like a helicopter view over the last fifty years, how have you seen the, you know, the progression or where it's going? Like, what, what's your take on, on, on the whole, on the Rebbe's, uh, on the Rebbe's, uh, work?

2:19:13 Speaker 3 Um, some years ago, our gan was picked together with another eleven from the entire country, a cohort that there was an organization to put in resources into all of these ganim, uh, nurseries and, and preschools in the h-hope that they would become s-centers of excellence for others to emulate, as well as to act as a springboard that would bring more families into the Jewish community as, as a whole, recognizing that after college, the next place you can more easily reach young people, young Jews, is when they start having children and they need a place to... And we were one of those that were picked, as they say. At the beginning, I heard this was a, you know, ten dollar, uh, ten million dollar initiative, and it's ten ganim originally. So I figured, "Oh, you've got a million dollars." It was, wasn't to give out money. There was, there's, I guess there was a couple of subsidies for particular programs, but mainly resources. They would bring people in, in. There was one woman that overlook-- o-o-oversaw our gan, maybe one or twice. She would come and meet with m-m-- the whole staff because the gan was so integrated with, is so integrated with Chabad as a whole, with all Chabad staff. Just she was very much into, you know, how an organization should work well, and it was-- She did incredible work, both with, you know, us as in general. After-- She would come for two days each month, and after the two days, she would

2:21:06 Speaker 3 meet with me to go over what happened. After just two years, I think. After the end of the two years, she-- It was the last time she was coming. I said to her, "Diana, maybe you wanna come to the ale with us." And she said, "Sure." She didn't know-- I mean, she, she had connections, Yiddishkayte, but not, you know, nothing, nothing to be afraid of. But, like, she jumped, "Yes, of course." And so we, right away, we went to the car with my wife and I, and we went to the ale. We had then a conversation. Now it's pure Chabad. I'm not talking anything. So she says to me, "You know, do you know what the problem with Chabad is?" And I'm thinking, "We don't have problems." "The problem with Chabad is you're telling your kids the wrong stories." And I'm thinking, "What? You know, the wrong stories? What are you talking-- We tell stories that are big. We tell stories..." "You're telling your kids stories of conquest, of taking over, of... Which is absolutely necessary when you start because you wanted to take over the whole world. You've taken over the whole world. There, there's not a place in the world where you aren't. You've taken over the whole world. There's not a significant challenge that you haven't gray-- uh, faced and not overcome. Now, you need to start digging deeper. You don't need to tell story-- You need to tell stories about going deeper, not going broader, not going higher, deeper. Now is

2:22:49 Speaker 3 the time to, to motivate the next generation into changing people, bringing people closer, bring..." You know, it's like it, it-- You've done the quantity. Now is the time for the quality. Which I thought was an incredible insight. And, uh, to, to come back to your question Yes. This, uh, this is where we've changed. The going out on shlichas, the first shluchim, the pioneers, the, the, the, the Kashe Mendels, the, uh, the Shamtovs, the, uh, the Nachman, the Zimaf, uh, they were going into a world that didn't want them and had to change that world. They changed it. There's not... And this is no longer the world that doesn't want us. This is a world that is explicitly being :"תבאה בפה, Come, we need you. We must have you." It's a whole different kind of going, okay? Today's shluchim are, as it were metaphorically, welcomed with open arms. And I, I feel that what ha-has to happen, and it's beginning to happen, is shlichas... The "עיל המשלחות" needs to understand now we need to go deeper, and we need to create things that, that... whose quality is, is, or is me-measured by their quality, not by their quantity, or not only by their quantity. So instead of to be the shliach that has the school with 200 kids or 500 kids or with Ghamaras and so, it's the shliach that has reached and changed, 10 people, 15 people, 20 families, transformed them. There should be a shliach. I don't think a shliach is capable of truly

2:25:07 Speaker 3 having a pnimisdike kesher, has the time for having a pnimisdike kesher with more than 20 families, 50 families, 100 families. More than that, that's, that's not, it's not realistic. And there needs to be a shliach for every 100 families. That's what the... Now, I, I want, I want a state, I want a country. Okay, the country that's outspoken for, but it's... It, it needs to be, "I, I want to make Hasidim. I need to make Hasidim. There are so many people that are not even considering themselves Yidden. I need to make them Yidden." And we need to tell those stories. It's, it's... People are intu-too-intu-intuitively picking that up already. I'm gonna with what I just said, but we, we need to focus on it and-

2:26:07 Speaker 9 I think at the core, that's what the Rebbe spoke about when he started shlichus.

2:26:12 Speaker 3 Of course.

2:26:13 Speaker 9 About "דפק בך" and not of one person.

2:26:15 Speaker 3 Of course.

2:26:15 Speaker 9 It's not about number. It was never about numbers.

2:26:17 Speaker 3 Never. Never.

2:26:18 Speaker 9 That was the success of it.

2:26:19 Speaker 3 Of course. Of course, okay? But we need to realize that, that that's the message that needs to, to resonate as the... That is what shlichus is. We were thinking of shlichas, we were thinking of, "Whoa, we're gonna be dealing with..." That's shlichas, you know? Which is what it had to be because that's what had to happen first. It, it... Just to go with the numbers, we have to build the structure, okay? Within which it can... The structure is built. Now we need to focus on that. And, and, and when the Rebbe said on "שחי תשעה באב" or Parashat Sh'kalim that "מפץ" the Rebbe would talk about "מפץ" of Purim and say, "מדף דרכין ידע יין. ידע יין דרבלט" between Shabu Sh'kalim and Purim is never less than two weeks or more than two, whatever. It's two weeks. N-n-never three weeks, okay? And yet, uh, when we think about location, "Okay, we're gonna make a bigger party this year." Okay? A bigger par... The Rebbe's look, "Of course, it'll be the party this year, and of course, sending out more shluchim this year and of course." But that's not what the Rebbe said. What the Rebbe said is everyone. That's what the Rebbe was looking for. And if he told it to us, it's because we can. The Rebbe wasn't... The Rebbe didn't speak סתם, המלץ וערטה. The Rebbe means every single Yid. That's what shlichus is. And every single Yid to look toward the Chabad Rebbe.

2:28:03 Speaker 9 Okay. Thank you very much, Rabbi Darren.

2:28:05 Speaker 3 You're very, very welcome.