0261 - Being Beaten is Worse than Dying - R' Y L Schapiro and R' Leibel Kaplan

00:00 In Tofshin Chaf Aleph, which is 1961, I learned in Lubavitch Yeshiva on Bedford Avenue, and my havrusa was Leibel Kaplan, alav hashalom, who was later the shliach of the Rebbe to Tzefas, and we were havrusa together. That year in the yeshiva, we learned Mesichta Kesubos. When we learned Mesichta Kesubos daf lamed gimmel, there the Gemara talks about what is more chomer, what is a stricter punishment, malkis, given thirty-nine lashes for doing an aveira, or debedzin, killing somebody for an aveira. And the Gemara has two sides. And the Gemara wants to show first that malkis could be worse than misah, because Rav said, "Il molei nogdu leChananya, Mishael, v'Azarya polcha letzalma." That if the government, the king, would have not thrown Chananya, Mishael, v'Azarya into the fire, trying to force them to worship Avei Dezoreh, and they didn't care, they let themselves been thrown in. But had he ordered that they should beat them, could be they would have bowed down to the Avei Dezoreh, to the tzelem. So we see that being beaten, which is similar to the meaning of malkis, is worse than dying. And the Gemara answers, "No, it's not ra'aya. Veleshonim lo b'nakashi, esh lakitza v'lakosha, ein lakitza." They're not the same. Malkis has an end. It's thirty-nine lashes and that's it. But the beating of the malkos, the beating of the goshe government, has no limit. And therefore, that could be worse than misah, but not regular malkis. When we learned this Gemara, we couldn't understand how could you say that

01:32 such great tzadikim, that had they been given malkis, had they been beaten, even if it's ein lakitza, even if it's something that is not limited to sheinin, it's more than that, they would have bowed down to Avei Dezoreh. It's very hard to understand. We tried to ask different people. We couldn't understand. We were still very young. We didn't really understand how the Rebbe's every second is precious. So we decided together, Leibel Kaplan and myself, that we'll write to the Rebbe the question. And he actually had experience because when he was much younger and he still lived in England, he wrote a letter to the Rebbe from England asking a question on Chumash, and the Rebbe actually answered him a letter. So he's experienced in writing to the Rebbe. So we sat down together and we wrote to the Rebbe this shaila, how could we say that they would have bowed down just because they would have got malkis, and even if we'll say it's malkis she'ein lakitza, it's a beating that doesn't have an end. So the Rebbe answered us. We're still young kids, but the Rebbe answered us. And I can't find actually what I wrote down the Rebbe's answer. I looked high and low for it, and I can't find it. But what I do remember for what the Rebbe answered is, "Ayin hagos r'Yaavetz." Look into the hagos of the Yaavetz, which is Rabianki Venden, on this daf of Gemara. And then the Rebbe wrote something else, a few more words, and

02:49 I just don't remember. But what it says in the Yaavetz is that he learned pshat that there it's ein lakitza by the Goyim. It's beating that has no end. Doesn't mean it has no end. It's not, we don't know how much. It's not, could be not thirty-nine, maybe it'll be fifty-five. So the Rashini says is that what would have been, they would have made them have yesurim behakois retzufes bli kitzva, beating them constantly without an end. Sheha'yesurim nimshochim, the yesurim would have gone on lo sha'ah, not an hour, lo yom, not a day, v'lo yemayim, not two days. V'lo yematzah v'lahachmi, lahasmid b'makis echzorius. They would have told him to constantly give him the most terrible, terrible pain, most terrible beating. Kol zman shelo ya'asu retzeiyn, as long as they wouldn't do the will that the king wants. V'zeh oif, v'omar Rav, d'polchu. And this is the case where he said that they could have bowed down. Ki hudavra she'i efshar lo adam la'amad beh. This is something that a person cannot stand. It's impossible for a person to stand, and that's what the Gemara means. So the Rebbe sent us to look at the Yaavetz, but then he answered, added a few more words, and unfortunately, I don't remember, and I can't find the teshuva.