Somachat Alayich - Episode 14 - Victim/Rebbetzin

00:00 Speaker 1 Happy for You.

00:01 Speaker 2 Happy for You. Chani Marzel.

00:04 Speaker 1 What’s up?

00:05 Speaker 2 Praise the Creator. Oh, how are you?

00:08 Speaker 1 Baruch Hashem. It’s fun, fun coming here for the podcast, and every time it’s a different location, and—

00:12 Speaker 2 Yes, you should know that Dovi really insisted on this location.

00:17 Speaker 1 What a—

00:18 Speaker 2 Really.

00:19 Speaker 1 We should say it’s in the same house; there are just a lot of locations.

00:22 Speaker 2 Yes. I’m afraid we’ll end up calling them rooms. It’s kind of—

00:27 Speaker 1 Heading toward—

00:29 Speaker 2 That’s it, it’s heading toward—

00:31 Speaker 1 So how are things?

00:32 Speaker 2 Wow, baruch Hashem.

00:34 Speaker 1 Actually, we recorded an episode, and it was an amazing episode.

00:39 Speaker 2 Amazing.

00:40 Speaker 1 Oh, it was…

00:44 Speaker 2 No, wait, I think there’s something better. One second. No, no, no. Oh, okay, never mind.

00:52 Speaker 1 You’re really becoming a pro at—

00:52 Speaker 2 I’m learning as I go.

00:54 Speaker 1 Really, well done.

00:55 Speaker 2 I think part of my message to people, to those who see what I’m doing and the success and so on—

01:01 Speaker 1 As you go.

01:01 Speaker 2 Is that I’m learning and improving at everything as I go.

01:04 Speaker 1 Right.

01:05 Speaker 2 People tell me, “Wow, I want to be an actress, I want to…” Sweetheart, start getting up onstage.

01:08 Speaker 1 Find the tune you wanted.

01:09 Speaker 2 So I’ll find it. Okay, okay, that was, uh—

01:15 Speaker 3 What’s that? Oh.

01:17 Speaker 1 Oh, that really speaks to me.

01:19 Speaker 3 It does. Without that sound.

01:23 Speaker 2 Like that, that’s it.

01:25 Speaker 1 Yes, so that’s—

01:25 Speaker 2 About the episode.

01:26 Speaker 1 Yes, so that’s—

01:26 Speaker 2 The one that worked.

01:28 Speaker 1 Oh, so that’s the personal shlucha.

01:29 Speaker 2 Right. That’s it, so here we are.

01:32 Speaker 1 So—

01:32 Speaker 2 And, um, I don’t even know what we talked about then. I have no idea.

01:35 Speaker 1 It’s been a while since we recorded.

01:37 Speaker 2 Right.

01:37 Speaker 1 Because the podcast episodes came out.

01:39 Speaker 2 Right.

01:40 Speaker 1 Playback from the club.

01:42 Speaker 2 Nice.

01:42 Speaker 1 By the way, what was the response to the—

01:43 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow.

01:44 Speaker 1 You’re welcome to watch and share.

01:45 Speaker 2 You’re welcome to wa-watch, share, like, share, s-s-subscribe, scribe, serve, scribe, subscribe.

01:52 Speaker 1 As much as possible.

01:53 Speaker 2 How do you say it?

01:54 Speaker 1 Subscribe.

01:55 Speaker 2 Click here.

01:56 Speaker 1 Subscribe.

01:56 Speaker 2 Click here, click here.

01:58 Speaker 1 So we can move to the U offices in Tel Aviv.

02:00 Speaker 2 So we can move to the U offices in Tel Aviv. He dreams of U in Tel Aviv.

02:03 Speaker 1 Oh, that’s the dream?

02:04 Speaker 2 That’s the dream. Listen, at the end of the day, he’s the one leading the dreams here, so I’m not against it.

02:08 Speaker 1 No, actually, it’s very convenient for me to come here. It’s close to home.

02:11 Speaker 2 It’s convenient for me here too. No problem at all.

02:12 Speaker 1 These are the only offices he knows.

02:15 Speaker 2 Oh, these are the only offices he knows.

02:16 Speaker 1 Okay, so the episodes came out, and that’s why it’s been a while.

02:20 Speaker 2 Right.

02:20 Speaker 1 Um, so I—Hashem, open my lips, and—

02:24 Speaker 2 My mouth shall declare Your praise, and we’re here to—

02:26 Speaker 1 It’ll be interesting.

02:27 Speaker 2 Right, right.

02:28 Speaker 1 So it’s one of those days.

02:30 Speaker 2 On days like this, I’m in this deep state of calm, something really…

02:38 Speaker 1 You’ve gone back to performing.

02:40 Speaker 2 I can’t even… I went back to performing, and I had a lot of apprehension, and I really wanted Iran. That’s not it. I wanted, I wanted—

02:55 Speaker 1 No, chas veshalom. No, but why—

02:56 Speaker 2 Chas veshalom. I didn’t want Iran.

02:58 Speaker 1 What do you mean, you wanted it?

02:58 Speaker 2 I mean, I had this—you know how it is. I’m sure self-employed people, and even employees, I don’t know, will relate to this: it was nice being at home during the war.

03:10 Speaker 1 Yes, but you don’t need a war to be at home.

03:13 Speaker 2 You don’t. Of course not.

03:13 Speaker 1 Actually, you’re bringing up something very interesting.

03:15 Speaker 2 Right?

03:16 Speaker 1 Because—I’ll tell you why.

03:17 Speaker 2 Yes.

03:17 Speaker 1 I’m surprised at you.

03:19 Speaker 2 No.

03:19 Speaker 1 For saying that.

03:20 Speaker 2 That’s fine. That’s why I’m saying it, so you’ll be surprised.

03:22 Speaker 1 So I’ll say—

03:22 Speaker 2 So you’ll be surprised. When I have—

03:24 Speaker 1 I’ve been hearing a lot this past month: “Wow, I’m really counting on Iran.” It’s students—

03:30 Speaker 2 Yes, right.

03:30 Speaker 1 Who are taking their matriculation exams.

03:31 Speaker 2 Right.

03:31 Speaker 1 It’s teachers who work in schools.

03:33 Speaker 2 Right, and I bring it up in my stand-up. I open my stand-up with it, as in—

03:36 Speaker 1 Wait, though. What I’m saying is, those are people who aren’t happy, or aren’t quite where they want to be.

03:47 Speaker 2 Not necessarily.

03:48 Speaker 1 Right, and then suddenly someone comes along and tells me—

03:50 Speaker 2 Not necessarily. Let me tell you something you might not know.

03:51 Speaker 1 Someone who, I think, loves it.

03:52 Speaker 2 I love being onstage.

03:53 Speaker 1 Okay.

03:53 Speaker 2 I really love it, but there’s something about it—look, getting to the stage involves a process I like less.

04:00 Speaker 1 What?

04:00 Speaker 2 Saying goodbye to the kids, getting dressed, putting on tights, doing my makeup. Though I don’t need to anymore.

04:08 Speaker 1 Mazel tov.

04:10 Speaker 2 I really do deserve a mazel tov for the permanent makeup.

04:12 Speaker 1 I gave it to myself as a birthday present.

04:14 Speaker 2 Really? Wow, that’s worth it.

04:16 Speaker 1 A great present.

04:16 Speaker 2 It is. And okay, I do know how to make things easier for myself. I’m not saying I don’t.

04:24 Speaker 1 Okay, but—

04:24 Speaker 2 You could say that I—

04:25 Speaker 1 So would you say you want to go straight from bed to the classroom, like that?

04:31 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

04:32 Speaker 1 If you could go straight from bed to the stage, like—

04:34 Speaker 2 Yes.

04:34 Speaker 1 Then it would be fine?

04:37 Speaker 2 Yes.

04:37 Speaker 1 Okay.

04:38 Speaker 2 Listen, anyway, it’s some kind of—let’s say it’s only at the beginning, okay? Going from state A to state B.

04:45 Speaker 1 But even when there was the—when there was Iran, there was also that uncertainty. You know, in the end, everything in our lives has both the good parts and the more challenging parts.

04:56 Speaker 2 Right.

04:57 Speaker 1 But why is it so—I mean, I believe you, but it seems strange to me because, at the end of the day, you’re the example of someone who says, “I’m living the life I want, and I’m happy, and—”

05:11 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

05:11 Speaker 1 And you’re not playing the victim.

05:13 Speaker 2 Absolutely. I’m not blaming anyone, but—

05:15 Speaker 1 No, and then there’s this wish for—let’s try to give it a name—wishing for, I don’t know, Iran or COVID, because only that will—

05:22 Speaker 2 No, because there’s something—

05:23 Speaker 1 Force us to stay home.

05:25 Speaker 2 No. Of course not. I know perfectly well how to do that for myself, and I know how to go out and take time for myself. There’s something about it… How can I explain the atmosphere during wartime?

05:40 Speaker 1 No, but chas veshalom.

05:41 Speaker 2 No, no. Again, I don’t want to go back there, but, um…

05:46 Speaker 1 No, you’re starting to feel like I’m some kind of—

05:48 Speaker 2 No.

05:48 Speaker 1 Naive person or something.

05:50 Speaker 2 Look—

05:50 Speaker 1 No, because I’m saying, I’m all for—

05:52 Speaker 2 Let’s put this on the table for a second. You didn’t live through the war. Okay? Go on, tell the audience.

05:55 Speaker 1 Why? What did I do?

05:57 Speaker 2 You—what do you mean? I was driving with you, there was a siren, and you didn’t stop.

06:00 Speaker 1 Oh, no.

06:01 Speaker 2 Okay? I mean, it’s a whole mindset, a whole mindset. I don’t know. Yes. O-okay.

06:05 Speaker 1 I wasn’t afraid.

06:06 Speaker 2 You weren’t afraid.

06:07 Speaker 1 No.

06:08 Speaker 2 Now, I can tell you that I was very disciplined.

06:11 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

06:12 Speaker 2 Every siren, I woke the kid—well, I carried the two little ones, and we went down one floor.

06:17 Speaker 1 Okay. So it should be the opposite. I should have wanted the war, and you shouldn’t have.

06:21 Speaker 2 Right, but still—

06:22 Speaker 1 So how can you want the war?

06:24 Speaker 2 No, I don’t want a war. Again, I don’t want a war.

06:25 Speaker 1 No, you mean that period.

06:26 Speaker 2 I was telling you about how hard it was for me to leave that warmth and all of that, and move into the stage of getting up onstage.

06:35 Speaker 1 Okay, then let me explain where I’m coming from—and it’s okay, it’s wonderful that everyone has their own take and their own way of seeing it. You changed something in the way I think, because I said, okay, thank You, Hashem, I don’t have that wish, because baruch Hashem, I do what I love. And I think we live in a generation where people can find—even if, no, I don’t spend all day doing what I love. Like you say, I love the stage, but I don’t love all those things leading up to it. They’re hard for me. Fine.

07:04 Speaker 2 That’s okay.

07:05 Speaker 1 But I love the stage.

07:06 Speaker 2 Right.

07:06 Speaker 1 The club—you like a lot of things about it less, the bureaucracy and all that, but you love its core and its shlichus.

07:13 Speaker 2 Right.

07:14 Speaker 1 In other words, I think people do need to connect with and find a place that’s good for them—

07:19 Speaker 2 Of course.

07:19 Speaker 1 So they won’t wait for some—

07:21 Speaker 2 Of course.

07:22 Speaker 1 Pin all their hopes on Trump.

07:23 Speaker 2 Now, about the war, what I wanted—again, during the war—was very much—

07:31 Speaker 1 That feeling of being at home.

07:32 Speaker 2 That feeling of being at home. I enjoy it.

07:34 Speaker 1 It goes back to your dream of living in a moshav.

07:36 Speaker 2 Right. There really were good experiences there. Set aside getting up in the middle of the night and all that, but I enjoy the family time and that whole thing.

07:46 Speaker 1 That really is your dream.

07:47 Speaker 2 Right. And the disappointment that, for now, there hasn’t been—

07:53 Speaker 1 There were—

07:54 Speaker 2 A third season. We’re talking in seasons.

07:57 Speaker 1 Yes.

07:58 Speaker 2 The fact that there’ll be a third season sometime, and that wait is driving me crazy. Just finish it already. Let’s really—

08:08 Speaker 1 So you’re talking about that uncertainty.

08:10 Speaker 2 Yes, because come on, there was a goal, right? There were goals. What did we achieve?

08:16 Speaker 1 I don’t know, I—

08:17 Speaker 2 I don’t know.

08:17 Speaker 1 I don’t get into those things.

08:18 Speaker 2 Neither do I, but I ask myself, what did we achieve? The north is burning. We didn’t—Hamas and Hezbollah and so on are extensions of Iran, so we haven’t established control over anything. I mean, we haven’t…

08:30 Speaker 1 Okay, I—

08:30 Speaker 2 It’s this feeling of…

08:31 Speaker 1 I live with the understanding that when something has nothing to do with me, and I don’t know about it, there’s nothing I can do there.

08:37 Speaker 2 Of course.

08:37 Speaker 1 And life keeps going in my own life.

08:38 Speaker 2 Me too. I see that life keeps going, but it still hurts, this not knowing. You—Baini[unclear] asks me, “So is the war over, or will we have more sirens?” You can’t tell her.

08:50 Speaker 1 No.

08:51 Speaker 2 I don’t know.

08:51 Speaker 1 We really don’t know.

08:52 Speaker 2 I don’t know. I just don’t know.

08:53 Speaker 1 That’s not all of it, but not to dwell on—I mean, I’d suggest dwelling on it less.

08:59 Speaker 2 We don’t dwell on it. Of course not. I don’t listen to the news, and I have no idea what’s happening, but the—the sign that came up—

09:05 Speaker 1 The questions you have are questions that...

09:07 Speaker 2 You put things in your calendar and you don’t know—

09:09 Speaker 1 Right.

09:10 Speaker 2 Whether to tell them yes or no, whether it will happen or not. You don’t know.

09:13 Speaker 1 Right.

09:14 Speaker 2 You don’t know.

09:15 Speaker 1 It really helps with “Cast your burden upon Hashem,” because you can’t place your burden—

09:19 Speaker 2 Even when we know, we don’t know.

09:20 Speaker 1 We don’t know anything.

09:21 Speaker 2 Even when we think we know, we don’t know. But honestly, it’s frustrating that we, uh, have held up the home front, as they say, with real strength and resilience, and there’s no one here to tell us what’s going on.

09:34 Speaker 1 There’s a phone ringing here.

09:37 Speaker 2 Uh, um, no, it’s not mine.

09:42 Speaker 1 Um.

09:43 Speaker 2 Though mine is on silent.

09:45 Speaker 1 Good. Blocked.

09:46 Speaker 2 Anyway—

09:48 Speaker 1 Okay, fine, so be it.

09:48 Speaker 2 I don’t know. If I were prime minister, I’d give a speech to reassure people, or offer some direction or a message.

09:54 Speaker 1 Then half of us would believe it and half wouldn’t. We don’t know anything.

09:57 Speaker 2 Never mind, but where is the...

10:00 Speaker 1 To be, uh, to be—I don’t know—dependent on Him, and that’s it.

10:03 Speaker 2 Right.

10:03 Speaker 1 Not to depend on anyone else. To actually live that way.

10:07 Speaker 2 Look, there’s no self-employed person who doesn’t have, uh, faith...

10:10 Speaker 1 Someone self-employed can’t be without that kind of faith.

10:13 Speaker 2 Exactly.

10:13 Speaker 1 But it’s a journey. I mean, speaking for myself, living with—I have a calendar, and you make plans, and then things get canceled and things fall through, and—

10:23 Speaker 2 Right, right.

10:24 Speaker 1 Okay, a plan.

10:25 Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely.

10:25 Speaker 1 To go with the flow—I mean, to go with the flow, with the Divine plan.

10:28 Speaker 2 I’m really not—again, every time something gets canceled, I’m like, “Wow, thank you, I’m home.” I mean, I’m there, but I’m not—

10:33 Speaker 1 Okay, but with you, there really are two extremes: the extreme of being away from home and the extreme of how much you want to be at home. I mean, you—you enjoy both ends of it.

10:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

10:47 Speaker 1 And is that hard for you?

10:48 Speaker 2 No.

10:49 Speaker 1 Why not?

10:49 Speaker 2 What do you mean?

10:50 Speaker 1 Because you live in the moment?

10:51 Speaker 2 Yes.

10:52 Speaker 1 Huh?

10:52 Speaker 2 I really enjoy being at home, and I really enjoy being out.

10:55 Speaker 1 Okay, that’s wonderful. I’m trying to remember what came up in the previous episode. I remember the subject was that you’re privileged.

11:03 Speaker 2 Yes. I don’t even understand the question.

11:04 Speaker 1 What, that you’re privileged?

11:05 Speaker 2 Yes.

11:06 Speaker 1 What does “privileged” mean?

11:08 Speaker 2 Um, um, one second.

11:12 Speaker 1 Open a dictionary.

11:12 Speaker 2 [unclear].

11:13 Speaker 1 Op—open a dictionary.

11:14 Speaker 2 Look, it’s like I was born with something, right?

11:16 Speaker 1 You have something others don’t have.

11:18 Speaker 2 You have something others don’t. Oh.

11:19 Speaker 1 And can you accept a claim like that, that people might say—

11:23 Speaker 2 No.

11:23 Speaker 1 “Oh, Michal Levitin, sure, she has...” I have no idea. I don’t know what you have, because I know with absolute certainty that I don’t know anything about anyone. But let’s get into the minds of people who think they know, because I’m not one of them. Um...

11:40 Speaker 2 Look—

11:40 Speaker 1 You know what? We could even go with this: they say Israelis walk in—come to an event, know how much they paid for their ticket, and immediately count how many people are in the hall.

11:51 Speaker 2 And how much the performer is making.

11:52 Speaker 1 No, and right away they think they know how much money the performer brought in. Never mind that events usually don’t make money from the event itself, but that’s the Israeli mindset.

12:01 Speaker 2 Right.

12:01 Speaker 1 So I’ll put myself in that Israeli mindset and say: Michal Levitin—I know roughly what she charges, what her show costs, and she’s onstage all the time. I don’t need to do much math or score a hundred in five-unit math to understand that, boruch Hashem, she’s financially secure and life is good for her, so she can’t really understand me. That could be one, two, three, four things people might say.

12:27 Speaker 2 Maybe.

12:29 Speaker 1 But what’s the story with you? The experience with you is that you don’t know at all.

12:32 Speaker 2 Exactly.

12:32 Speaker 1 You don’t know either.

12:34 Speaker 2 I stay out of the numbers and the finances because I really want to keep the experience pure.

12:40 Speaker 1 A clear channel.

12:41 Speaker 2 Yes, exactly.

12:43 Speaker 1 And if you did know the numbers?

12:46 Speaker 2 Look, every so often—I think we talked about this—I ask Yossi, “So how much?”

12:50 Speaker 1 No, you want to know whether it was worth it for you in that moment, if you’re tired or something, or you remember your dream of living on a moshav.

12:57 Speaker 2 Right.

12:57 Speaker 1 But, but, but.

13:00 Speaker 2 I...

13:01 Speaker 1 Isn’t it a bit of an escape?

13:03 Speaker 2 What?

13:03 Speaker 1 Staying out of the numbers and not knowing.

13:05 Speaker 2 Maybe. What’s wrong with that?

13:06 Speaker 1 You’re making a choice. Choosing not to know is also a choice. You’re taking yourself out of it.

13:09 Speaker 2 I choose not to have a driver’s license. I mean, it’s...

13:13 Speaker 1 What’s that about?

13:14 Speaker 2 I don’t want all the responsibility on me.

13:17 Speaker 1 Because...

13:19 Speaker 2 Because... Uh, that’s a hard question.

13:28 Speaker 1 You could develop to your fullest potential.

13:29 Speaker 2 No, because I think that in a good marriage, it’s important to be on the receiving end and to need the other person in some areas.

13:44 Speaker 1 So you’re saying that, in your view, if you had this and this and this too...

13:49 Speaker 2 Between us, I can do everything.

13:51 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

13:51 Speaker 2 My husband could go play with his friends every day. I could run this household properly all by myself. A woman can do everything, everything.

13:59 Speaker 1 Okay. And then?

14:01 Speaker 2 If I don’t choose to yield in certain areas, then what holds the...

14:13 Speaker 1 The knowledge that you’re—you’re—you’re receiving and not giving.

14:17 Speaker 2 Right, right. But when I actually experience it—when I choose to let go of something I could do and hand it over...

14:29 Speaker 1 With all due respect.

14:30 Speaker 2 To someone else, with all due respect.

14:32 Speaker 1 Now, when you made that choice, was it a deliberate choice?

14:35 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes, very much so.

14:37 Speaker 1 Can you take us back to that choice?

14:40 Speaker 2 The choice came from a very painful place. I saw that my husband didn’t have that place as a man, as a provider, as...

14:57 Speaker 1 Something he felt was his.

14:58 Speaker 2 That he felt was his. He would work in some store, bring home his...

15:03 Speaker 1 His share.

15:04 Speaker 2 And I would come in with...

15:07 Speaker 1 But no, he wasn’t managing it then. He was managing it, but it didn’t feel like it was his.

15:12 Speaker 2 Yes, he managed some part of... Again, I answered the phones and booked the events, and I was pretty much running it.

15:24 Speaker 1 And did you like running it?

15:25 Speaker 2 No, not at all.

15:26 Speaker 1 You didn’t like running it either. So handing it over to him completely wasn’t a choice you made because you enjoyed doing it.

15:31 Speaker 2 Look, what do I mean by “I didn’t like it”? It was right for me, and it made sense, because there’s nothing like the person running the business closing a deal directly with...

15:39 Speaker 1 The client.

15:40 Speaker 2 The client, and knowing exactly what they want. There were many, many, many mix-ups at first when he managed it. He’d say, “Listen, it’s for new mothers.” And I’d arrive with material for new mothers and see elderly women. Do you know how many times that happened? I’d come with a completely different vibe. A lot.

15:58 Speaker 1 Wow. So it was really about letting go.

16:01 Speaker 2 Of life.

16:02 Speaker 1 Wow.

16:03 Speaker 2 I mean...

16:03 Speaker 1 You know, you’re saying something very powerful here, because responsibility can’t belong to two people.

16:10 Speaker 2 Right.

16:10 Speaker 1 But when you toss the ball—pass it on—there can be a period before someone picks it up.

16:15 Speaker 2 Listen...

16:16 Speaker 1 In other words, you put the ball down.

16:17 Speaker 2 Right.

16:17 Speaker 1 Speaking of the balls we talked about then with the... This, this follows the same principle.

16:21 Speaker 2 Right.

16:22 Speaker 1 You have to let go completely and daven to Hakadosh Boruch Hu that the other person will take responsibility.

16:27 Speaker 2 Exactly.

16:27 Speaker 1 And you can’t put your own fantasies and demands on it, because he’ll pick up the ball in his own way.

16:34 Speaker 2 Right. And today he really does manage it his own way, and...

16:37 Speaker 1 You let go completely.

16:38 Speaker 2 Completely. It took me... It was a process. It was a process because I wanted...

16:44 Speaker 1 But it was a process you didn’t know you were getting into.

16:45 Speaker 2 No.

16:46 Speaker 1 You weren’t aware.

16:47 Speaker 2 No.

16:47 Speaker 1 If you had been aware beforehand?

16:49 Speaker 2 If I’d been aware, it would have been much easier.

16:51 Speaker 1 Would it have been easier, or might you not have done it?

16:53 Speaker 2 Or I might not have done it. Could be... That’s possible. That’s possible, that’s possible...

16:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

16:56 Speaker 2 Because he really did drive away a lot of clients.

16:59 Speaker 1 Wow.

16:59 Speaker 2 I mean, there was a period when people simply didn’t book events because—because, uh, he handled things in... not, not, not in a way that...

17:07 Speaker 1 Not in the way that you, uh...

17:08 Speaker 2 Yes, because he couldn’t get to an understanding with them. I told him, “Listen, I’m onstage for an hour, okay? Now, if someone wants an hour and ten minutes...” “No, my wife won’t do that. Bye.” Why would I mind giving an hour and ten minutes instead of an hour?

17:20 Speaker 1 He spoke like a bot.

17:21 Speaker 2 Yes.

17:21 Speaker 1 He spoke like a bot.

17:22 Speaker 2 I mean, what’s the big deal about giving an hour and ten minutes? You practically have to drag me off the stage anyway. I could go for two hours without noticing.

17:28 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

17:29 Speaker 2 Now...

17:30 Speaker 1 Wow.

17:30 Speaker 2 You understand? Things like that, where he didn’t know how to... how.

17:34 Speaker 1 Wow.

17:34 Speaker 2 I told him, “Yossi, I can give an hour and ten...” I mean, okay.

17:39 Speaker 1 That took a lot of deep breaths.

17:40 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

17:41 Speaker 1 And you were able to do it? Where did you get the—the understanding, the ability, the... gift from Hakadosh Boruch Hu?

17:48 Speaker 2 Um, I really, really wanted to... give him that. So...

17:55 Speaker 1 Meaning, you knew... that desire you had... that was the choice.

17:59 Speaker 2 My choice.

18:00 Speaker 1 No matter what.

18:00 Speaker 2 You have to understand, he also didn’t know how to talk about... “What does your wife do? What does she do? Oh, she...” He had no idea how to promote me. I mean, “She’s funny, um...” And I’m thinking, “I bring humor to all kinds of topics. Um, what topic would you like?”

18:22 Speaker 1 Oh, wow, wow, wow.

18:22 Speaker 2 Like, I was trying to...

18:24 Speaker 1 But in that kind of situation, it’s even harder for you to let go.

18:27 Speaker 2 Right, but I wanted to teach him how to... how to... Anyway...

18:32 Speaker 1 Wow.

18:32 Speaker 2 There was a real process here...

18:34 Speaker 1 Wow, that’s fascinating.

18:35 Speaker 2 And... yes, I would have conversations with him about it. I told him, “Listen, let’s do a role-play, okay? I’ll call and say, ‘Hello, um, what does your wife do? What...’”

18:43 Speaker 1 I’m going back a step. Where did you get the... the sense to do that?

18:48 Speaker 2 Um, I told myself, look, anyone else I bring in...

18:51 Speaker 1 Did you consult anyone?

18:51 Speaker 2 No.

18:52 Speaker 1 No.

18:52 Speaker 2 No, no.

18:53 Speaker 1 You really didn’t consult anyone?

18:54 Speaker 2 No. But, um, no, I’m happy to take advice. There was a woman who called and said, “Listen, I don’t want to speak to your husband. I don’t want to book an event through him—with you or anyone else.” I told him... I told her, “Listen, talk to me about the content, and talk to him about the logistics.” And for a while, that’s how it worked. I said, “Yossi, if someone wants to talk to me about the content, send them to me, and you’ll just handle the logistics.” Today there’s no need... Nobody speaks to me.

19:22 Speaker 1 Today he handles the content too?

19:23 Speaker 2 Nobody speaks to me.

19:25 Speaker 1 Wow.

19:25 Speaker 2 He knows how to explain what I do to prospective clients better than I do.

19:31 Speaker 1 Very good.

19:32 Speaker 2 Better. I listen from the side and think, wow.

19:35 Speaker 1 Are you impressed with yourself?

19:36 Speaker 2 Totally, totally.

19:37 Speaker 1 No, because what a journey this has been.

19:39 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. I’m sure a lot of clients were lost along the way.

19:43 Speaker 1 That’s okay...

19:43 Speaker 2 But it’s okay.

19:44 Speaker 1 But it was exactly right.

19:45 Speaker 2 Yes.

19:47 Speaker 1 And when a client did fall through and you saw it happen, how did you hold yourself together and not break down?

19:52 Speaker 2 No, it didn’t bother me, because it hurt him more than it hurt me.

19:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

19:57 Speaker 2 He saw money going down the drain. Me, I was like, another one will come. My mind wasn’t there at all.

20:04 Speaker 1 So you’d reached a point where...

20:05 Speaker 2 I felt bad for him.

20:05 Speaker 1 You’re completely detached from the business side. You’re not even the owner... You’re not self-employed. I think you work for your husband, in his business.

20:15 Speaker 2 I’m the one who brings in his salary, yes.

20:18 Speaker 1 And, I mean, come on, your name is the brand. The brand is built around your name. But at the end of the day, I know what it means to be self-employed.

20:27 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

20:30 Speaker 1 Amazing.

20:31 Speaker 2 Right.

20:32 Speaker 1 So before I come back to calling you privileged, because I’m still interested in that—I don’t know if I ever shared this with you. Not long ago I had a very interesting insight. You know me, with my insights and models.

20:43 Speaker 2 And goodies.

20:44 Speaker 1 No, and what amazes me is that I can think of something, an idea comes to me, and I see it visually in my mind. Then I can go to Chat and it turns it into an image for me. So I don’t know if I showed you, but I suddenly had this beautiful, very interesting insight about married life.

21:02 Speaker 2 We’re doing a month on relationships.

21:03 Speaker 1 It’s relationship month in the club, so maybe we really should share it there. Oh, I forgot. See? I don’t even remember what I have.

21:09 Speaker 2 Chani.

21:09 Speaker 1 The incredible things we do in the club.

21:11 Speaker 2 That’s the club’s motto. It’s incredible.

21:12 Speaker 1 We’ll share it.

21:13 Speaker 2 Will you tell us what it is?

21:15 Speaker 1 So the word came to me. I saw the word chayim, “life,” in my mind’s eye, and then I saw its letters: ches, yud, yud, and final mem.

21:25 Speaker 2 Right.

21:26 Speaker 1 And the ches is like a person, with two legs. Two people come into a marriage—a husband and wife who weren’t born yesterday—and each one has a self. When you take the ches and put part of it above and part below, you have a giver and a receiver, and it forms a final mem. The final mem is like a home. So life in a marriage is the ches, it’s... And then you put a yud and a yud inside. That’s also Hakadosh Boruch Hu. When you have that, the Shechinah is present, and you also bring your own essential self into the home. Meaning, I don’t have to come in and take over the whole house and be everything. There’s me, in my little yud inside, and there’s him, in his little yud inside. Then the home can keep growing, but we grow together. So my husband added something beautiful to this.

22:20 Speaker 2 Yes.

22:20 Speaker 1 In chayim, you can also hear chai im—“living with.” Living with someone. It’s exactly that. I have a gorgeous infographic of it, so we’ll share it. But no, the giver and receiver part is really, really about understanding and living with the knowledge that we also receive. When you talk about this, in my life too, in a sense, I’m the one who works and earns a living. But I’ve done a lot, and as far as I’m concerned, who I am is thanks to him. I mean...

22:49 Speaker 2 Same here. I could say exactly the same thing.

22:50 Speaker 1 No, but your husband also works. Mine doesn’t even work, but I mean the way he holds me up and supports me.

22:55 Speaker 2 He holds the home together. He supports you.

22:57 Speaker 1 Yes.

22:57 Speaker 2 He holds the emotional side, he holds all the...

22:58 Speaker 1 In an incredible way. And I really can just go out and earn a living, baruch Hashem. So let’s go back to “privileged.” Now I can better understand why you don’t feel privileged. I mean, because you practically don’t know anything. I say “practically” because you both know and don’t know, and you choose what you want to know and what you don’t. But that’s also a privilege.

23:24 Speaker 2 Right.

23:24 Speaker 1 To be in a position where you can afford not to know. And you know that, baruch Hashem, you live well, even though you always want things to be better. Those don’t contradict each other.

23:33 Speaker 2 Right.

23:34 Speaker 1 That’s also a privilege.

23:35 Speaker 2 Right. Look, I won’t tell you I’m not privileged.

23:39 Speaker 1 Okay.

23:39 Speaker 2 I was born with an incredible talent, and I believe there are many other women who were born with incredible talents.

23:46 Speaker 1 And do they all make use of their incredible talents?

23:50 Speaker 2 No.

23:51 Speaker 1 And do they all make money from their incredible talents?

23:53 Speaker 2 No, but that’s a matter of choice.

23:59 Speaker 1 What choice?

24:00 Speaker 2 The choice to set aside the life you’ve experienced and all the ways you’ve felt like a victim.

24:08 Speaker 1 Where could you have... Let’s go there, because we’ve had some interesting episodes here, and we’re going to have a fascinating month on the subject of ostracism. I’ll just say, um, that it’s going to be a life-changing month. We’re not revealing when we meet or when we do these things, but baruch Hashem, it’s very exciting. I can tell you that sometimes, from the sidelines, I see the responses you get, and it’s just...

24:34 Speaker 2 Right.

24:35 Speaker 1 There’s something very, very moving here. So you grew up with a certain childhood, okay? It started out very nicely, in a normal, ordinary home. But even with your life story, your father wasn’t there and traveled a lot. Where could that have led? Just imagine—since you’re an actress and know how to get into character—give me a version of that little girl. Where could she have ended up? Why am I doing this? Because I want us to try, with Hashem’s help, to show how the place we reach and what we do with our lives are in our hands.

25:10 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

25:10 Speaker 1 It’s about taking responsibility. Because if I’m always living with “She has it and I don’t; she can do it and I can’t,” then I haven’t moved forward or grown.

25:19 Speaker 2 Right.

25:19 Speaker 1 So let’s try. Give us Michal.

25:22 Speaker 2 I grew up in a home where my father, um, worked abroad.

25:27 Speaker 1 He wasn’t around much.

25:28 Speaker 2 Right, as a shochet. Um, I don’t remember feeling deprived of anything during that part of my childhood.

25:38 Speaker 1 Beautiful. You have a wonderful mother, and you also grew up knowing that your parents had a good marriage.

25:43 Speaker 2 Yes.

25:43 Speaker 1 Baruch Hashem.

25:44 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

25:44 Speaker 1 Okay, let’s get to eighth grade.

25:46 Speaker 2 Eighth grade. We talked about it.

25:48 Speaker 1 Right, but I want you to take it from there and look at it through the eyes of a victim.

25:53 Speaker 2 Okay, so I’m taking the victim’s perspective.

25:56 Speaker 1 Yes, the victim’s perspective.

25:56 Speaker 2 I’m taken out of the place I love, the place I know, where I feel strong and at home, surrounded by friends I really loved and had good relationships with. I had a good social standing, and I’m thrown into a jungle, into a class where nobody wants me there.

26:17 Speaker 1 They’re afraid. The class is afraid of losing its place.

26:20 Speaker 2 Yes, but from my point of view...

26:21 Speaker 1 From your point of view.

26:22 Speaker 2 “Why did you come here?”

26:23 Speaker 1 Right.

26:23 Speaker 2 “Go back where you came from. You’re ruining the atmosphere here and upsetting our social world.”

26:29 Speaker 1 I apologized for that at some point already.

26:30 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I’m playing the victim now. You told me to.

26:35 Speaker 1 Yes, be as much of a victim as you can.

26:35 Speaker 2 So I leave there, and it’s not just the girls. It’s also the general atmosphere, the staff, the teachers who make you feel...

26:43 Speaker 1 That you came in and shook up the whole system.

26:45 Speaker 2 Exactly. You don’t belong.

26:47 Speaker 1 And you’re the one feeling it—that little girl.

26:50 Speaker 2 Yes.

26:50 Speaker 1 Yes.

26:50 Speaker 2 Um, I couldn’t do any of my hobbies.

26:55 Speaker 1 You didn’t have a skateboard, you didn’t have...

26:56 Speaker 2 I had nothing. I even left the Barbies I loved with a good friend as a gift. I mean, I really arrived uprooted, without any anchor. Dad was sick.

27:06 Speaker 1 When did your dad get sick?

27:07 Speaker 2 I think Dad got sick half a year after we moved to Kfar Chabad.

27:10 Speaker 1 So you were in the middle of eighth grade.

27:11 Speaker 2 Yes.

27:11 Speaker 1 In a difficult situation socially.

27:13 Speaker 2 Yes.

27:14 Speaker 1 And your dad was sick.

27:14 Speaker 2 I spent evenings in hospitals, slept there too, because my older sisters were all in seminary and had their own things going on. And school wasn’t going well for me anyway, so I didn’t mind spending the nights there, arriving late, and getting scolded by the teacher. It was a cycle. Nobody really knew where I was at night.

27:31 Speaker 1 And by the way, were you processing what was happening with your dad? Were you aware of it, or were you just surviving that period?

27:40 Speaker 2 Um, no, I... What do you mean? I knew the situation wasn’t simple.

27:44 Speaker 1 Things weren’t good, but from that place of being a victim, were you trying to put things right and fight for yourself?

27:51 Speaker 2 Um, no. I was grateful to be alive. I mean...

27:56 Speaker 1 You’re slipping out of the victim perspective on me. We’re...

27:58 Speaker 2 Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Put me back in the victim perspective.

28:02 Speaker 1 You too.

28:03 Speaker 2 What do you mean? What does my dad have to do with this now? I’m trying to save my own life and find a place for myself here. And now I have to spend time in hospitals too, and they’re counting on me to cheer Dad up and make him laugh while I’m crying at night because...

28:19 Speaker 1 Because you don’t have friends.

28:19 Speaker 2 Because I don’t have friends, and they humiliate me and set me up. I mean, girls would say, “Come, we’ll...” I’d arrange for friends to come study with me, to study together for a test. They’d come to my house, I’d prepare an amazing spread, and as soon as they finished eating, they’d say, “Oh, we have to go.” Then I’d come in the next day... The next day I’d find out they’d studied at someone else’s house. Lovely, and...

28:43 Speaker 1 And then you started high school.

28:45 Speaker 2 Started high school.

28:45 Speaker 1 You wanted to perform onstage. They wouldn’t accept you.

28:47 Speaker 2 They wouldn’t accept me. I wanted to take my matriculation exams in subjects I...

28:53 Speaker 1 In fields you loved.

28:53 Speaker 2 In fields I loved. For example, there was human factors engineering, which was part of the design and fashion program. I asked to do ten units in human factors engineering instead of one, because I was good at it, and they wouldn’t allow it. Um, and lots of other things.

29:09 Speaker 1 So you were creative, and you were trying to open up...

29:11 Speaker 2 They didn’t accept my fashion project because of the inspiration. We had to take inspiration from something, and listen, a year or two earlier, when my dad was abroad, he came back with... He told us about it, and he’d bring back animal hides and all kinds of things...

29:33 Speaker 1 From animals.

29:33 Speaker 2 From animals, and I really connected with a piece of art he brought back made from cowhide, black and white, something really beautiful. And I said, all right, I won’t do a cow, because they wanted something with a dissonance to it. They wanted some kind of... there was this...

29:49 Speaker 1 Concept.

29:49 Speaker 2 Concept. I said, okay, where can I use black and white in a beautiful concept? Penguins. Now, I said, I don’t want a winter collection; I want a summer collection. So I found, in the encyclopedia we had at home, that there are penguins in Africa. There are penguins in Africa.

30:06 Speaker 1 This girl opened an encyclopedia.

30:07 Speaker 2 Yes.

30:07 Speaker 1 There was no Wikipedia then.

30:08 Speaker 2 Right. There are, and I really... I researched it. I said, wow, penguins in Africa fit exactly the concept I want. I can make a summer collection because it’s Africa, and use the penguins for the black and white. Now listen, the program wouldn’t accept it. I mean, they told me...

30:27 Speaker 1 Why? Because it had to be winter?

30:28 Speaker 2 Because there are no penguins in Africa. As far as they were concerned, they didn’t exist. If I wanted penguins, I had to make a winter collection.

30:33 Speaker 1 Oh. So what did you do?

30:36 Speaker 2 I told them, but there are. They really exist.

30:39 Speaker 1 So once again, you came up against something you wanted...

30:41 Speaker 2 That, like...

30:41 Speaker 1 And they blocked you. You wanted something, and they blocked you.

30:44 Speaker 2 Exactly. And they just wouldn’t accept the project. I made a stunning final project, but, uh, I don’t know whether I passed or not. I have no idea. They really didn’t like it, but it was gorgeous. I really had an incredible collection with African fringes and...

30:55 Speaker 1 Making it... working on the project—did you enjoy that?

30:58 Speaker 2 Very much.

30:59 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

30:59 Speaker 2 Very, very much.

31:00 Speaker 1 Amazing.

31:00 Speaker 2 But as far as I was concerned, I’d done my part. I put my work out there, I loved it, and the girls complimented me. That was enough for me. The teachers didn’t like it, but okay.

31:08 Speaker 1 Socially, things were better in high school, right?

31:11 Speaker 2 In high school, yes, because the girls weren’t only from Kfar Chabad anymore. There were girls from Rechovot and... Yes, socially, I also became friends with lots of older girls. Most of them were actually from the seminary. You know, the lawn crowd. We had a great lawn crowd. There, things really were...

31:30 Speaker 1 It really is a beautiful campus.

31:32 Speaker 2 Yes.

31:33 Speaker 1 The lawn is beautiful.

31:34 Speaker 2 Definitely. Uh, and there too, you know, there was the personal hounding over all kinds of things...

31:40 Speaker 1 They were looking for reasons to pick on you.

31:41 Speaker 2 All the time.

31:41 Speaker 1 They always found one.

31:42 Speaker 2 All the time.

31:42 Speaker 1 Stay in the victim perspective.

31:43 Speaker 2 They were looking for reasons to pick on me all the time. Waiting, waiting for me at the gate to see how I was dressed, what I was wearing, what I’d said, what... They never liked what they saw when they looked at me. I don’t know why. Never. One time it was a ponytail, another time a sock, another time a shoe, another time... There was always something.

31:57 Speaker 1 And your experience was...

31:58 Speaker 2 And my experience was...

32:01 Speaker 1 From the victim perspective.

32:01 Speaker 2 A victim’s experience.

32:02 Speaker 1 Yes.

32:02 Speaker 2 What do they want from me? Just let me live. What’s going on?

32:07 Speaker 1 Okay, so basically, “Nothing will come of you.” You heard that a lot too.

32:09 Speaker 2 Right.

32:10 Speaker 1 So let’s continue with “Nothing will come of you.”

32:12 Speaker 2 “Nothing will come of you, and it’s a shame, because you have potential.” Always, always: “You have potential, you have potential.” Uh...

32:17 Speaker 1 The word “potential” needs to be removed from teachers’ vocabulary.

32:21 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Now, I’m sitting in class and I actually want to listen. There’s a teacher teaching—I won’t say his name, since he’s passed away, z”l—and I ask questions that interest me, but he doesn’t like my questions. “You will not ask questions here.”

32:39 Speaker 1 Because you’re someone who hasn’t come fully formed.

32:40 Speaker 2 And I get a big, round zero. Zero. See?

32:44 Speaker 1 There’s no such grade. There’s no such grade.

32:45 Speaker 2 Zero. Listen, I got a zero on my report card. Zero.

32:49 Speaker 1 How, how... Okay, I won’t ask questions.

32:51 Speaker 2 And I’m thinking, why zero, though? I was there. I asked questions. True, maybe the questions were challenging. Some were questions about emunah, some were difficult questions, and some were funny questions that had the girls choking with laughter and disrupted the lesson. But I was there. I mean, why zero? I’m breathing, I have a pulse, I’m not a zero. So I said, how unfortunate for him.

33:13 Speaker 1 You accepted it?

33:13 Speaker 2 I said, how unfortunate for him that he sees a student as a zero.

33:16 Speaker 1 No, from the victim perspective.

33:16 Speaker 2 Oh, sorry. How did I see it... From the victim perspective, it was: Why? How? Why am I a zero?

33:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

33:25 Speaker 2 I mean, just a zero. And I remember that—never mind—from outside the victim perspective, I laughed about it and enjoyed it, but okay. But...

33:32 Speaker 1 No, we can see you outside the victim perspective, but where...

33:35 Speaker 2 From the victim perspective...

33:35 Speaker 1 A girl like you, a victim and so unfortunate, with every reason to feel like a victim.

33:40 Speaker 2 Completely.

33:40 Speaker 1 Come on, you were facing a difficult situation in life—

33:42 Speaker 2 Right.

33:43 Speaker 1 And in that situation—what becomes of her? Stay with her for a moment.

33:47 Speaker 2 Uh, she becomes a confused, frustrated girl who also doesn’t get accepted into seminary, uh, and also doesn’t—because she didn’t take the entrance exam. Let’s tell that story: I didn’t take the exam because my mother didn’t have three hundred shekels to give me.

33:59 Speaker 1 Wow.

33:59 Speaker 2 Our financial situation was very, very difficult.

34:01 Speaker 1 Wow.

34:02 Speaker 2 Now, the course cost six hundred shekels. Right?

34:04 Speaker 1 Right.

34:04 Speaker 2 I remember, the exam was six hundred shekels. I remember my mother paid for it because I told her, “Listen, if I don’t take this entrance course, I won’t get into seminary. Do you want me to go to seminary?” “Of course.” Okay. Then I think a week beforehand, they told us we needed another three hundred shekels. That made me angry. I said, “I know—you said it was six hundred shekels. We came up with those six hundred shekels through real self-sacrifice.” There’s the victim perspective coming out.

34:29 Speaker 1 Yes. Stay with it a moment.

34:30 Speaker 2 And now there’s another three hundred shekels. Where did that come from?

34:33 Speaker 1 Wow. So you didn’t go to the exam?

34:36 Speaker 2 They hadn’t told me in advance. I remember asking my mother, and I was simply ashamed to ask her for those three hundred shekels.

34:41 Speaker 1 Wow.

34:41 Speaker 2 I was ashamed. I told her, “Mom, I need another three hundred shekels.” Now, I don’t remember whether I told her why or not. She said, “I don’t have it.” I said, okay, it’s from Heaven. That wasn’t the victim perspective.

34:50 Speaker 1 I said—that last bit was from the victim perspective.

34:50 Speaker 2 Not in victim mode. In victim mode, I said, “I studied for months in this course. I poured my heart and soul into it because I wanted to pass the entrance exam, and I don’t have the money to take the exam.”

35:05 Speaker 1 So I have no future.

35:06 Speaker 2 I have no future. I didn’t take the exam. Do you get it?

35:09 Speaker 1 Wow.

35:11 Speaker 2 And where was the staff?

35:12 Speaker 1 I don’t—I—I don’t know.

35:15 Speaker 2 In victim mode: Where was the staff who could see that I was on the list, that I’d taken the course but hadn’t taken the exam?

35:24 Speaker 1 Wow.

35:25 Speaker 2 Nobody notices, because I’m a nobody.

35:29 Speaker 1 No. There’s something... Okay, it’s not funny.

35:33 Speaker 2 I’m funny.

35:33 Speaker 1 Because, I’m saying, being—being a vic— In the end, I don’t want this to sound dismissive of people who feel like victims. First of all, we said—

35:41 Speaker 2 No.

35:41 Speaker 1 That there’s a lot of pleasure in it, a lot of—

35:44 Speaker 2 Right, right.

35:44 Speaker 1 An addiction to it.

35:46 Speaker 2 Right.

35:46 Speaker 1 But, but there’s a logic to it too.

35:48 Speaker 2 Right.

35:48 Speaker 1 I mean, really, imagine being that little girl. It’s—

35:51 Speaker 2 Yes, a poor little girl.

35:52 Speaker 1 Heartbreaking.

35:53 Speaker 2 In one sense, I was a poor little girl.

35:54 Speaker 1 Heartbreaking.

35:54 Speaker 2 Could anyone tell by looking at me that I was suffering?

35:56 Speaker 1 You didn’t—

35:56 Speaker 2 No?

35:57 Speaker 1 No, because you were never in that place.

35:58 Speaker 2 Right, because I told myself, okay—

35:59 Speaker 1 But you were an actress.

36:01 Speaker 2 Right.

36:02 Speaker 1 You spent a lot of time acting, and that was how you survived.

36:06 Speaker 2 Yes.

36:07 Speaker 1 Which was a gift from Hakadosh Boruch Hu. Back then, it wasn’t a talent yet.

36:10 Speaker 2 A talent.

36:10 Speaker 1 It wasn’t—it wasn’t a talent at all yet, or a career, or a success.

36:15 Speaker 2 Right.

36:16 Speaker 1 So it was a gift you used, but...

36:19 Speaker 2 Yes.

36:19 Speaker 1 But that little girl isn’t succeeding, and she’s in victim mode, and she... Do you understand? I mean, with shidduchim too, it carries on. We don’t want to— We’ve understood the story.

36:29 Speaker 2 Yes.

36:30 Speaker 1 Now I’m just curious: when you go back there now, as we just did—it wasn’t easy, but it was—

36:36 Speaker 2 Hard, yes.

36:37 Speaker 1 Does it help you understand people who feel like victims better now?

36:41 Speaker 2 Yes. What do you mean? I understand people who feel like victims.

36:44 Speaker 1 You understand, but you don’t entirely understand.

36:47 Speaker 2 I know that being in victim mode brings a certain kind of pleasure.

36:51 Speaker 1 No, but there’s a language of victimhood that reaches you too, because you get so many messages and so much feedback and all sorts of things, and it’s as if you’re in a parallel—

37:03 Speaker 2 On another level.

37:04 Speaker 1 In a parallel— Like, it’s not something...

37:05 Speaker 2 Because this is how I live: everything you were turned down for, every door that closed in your face, every time someone said no to you—it’s a gift.

37:13 Speaker 1 Can you live that way all the time?

37:17 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

37:17 Speaker 1 How do you do it?

37:22 Speaker 2 I say, I feel—I mean, I know that Hakadosh Boruch Hu is guiding me...

37:28 Speaker 1 So you’re very connected to Hakadosh Boruch Hu.

37:30 Speaker 2 All the time. Yes.

37:30 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:31 Speaker 2 And if He’s sent this now...

37:33 Speaker 1 So every situation that happens in your life—

37:36 Speaker 2 Yes.

37:36 Speaker 1 You don’t see it as, “She messed things up for me.”

37:39 Speaker 2 No.

37:39 Speaker 1 It’s Hakadosh Boruch Hu who chose to...

37:40 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Everyone is an agent of His.

37:42 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:43 Speaker 2 Everyone.

37:43 Speaker 1 Beautiful.

37:44 Speaker 2 In everything, all the time.

37:45 Speaker 1 Beautiful. So you see people as agents of Hakadosh Boruch Hu.

37:49 Speaker 2 Yes.

37:50 Speaker 1 Do you have a tip for how to live that way?

37:54 Speaker 2 Look, we’ve heard—

37:55 Speaker 1 First of all, you’re privileged.

37:56 Speaker 2 Okay.

37:56 Speaker 1 I mean—the privilege is living with that awareness. Not everyone lives— Just leave here understanding that not everyone lives with that awareness.

38:05 Speaker 2 Anyone who really wants to live with that awareness only has to hear a few stories about people who were held up and missed a flight that never reached its destination, or people who missed—

38:16 Speaker 1 But those are miracle stories. What about the person who was held up, lost an enormous amount of money because of it, and the plane did reach its destination? Those things happen too.

38:29 Speaker 2 Right.

38:29 Speaker 1 It was still the same Hakadosh Boruch Hu directing it.

38:31 Speaker 2 Right, right. And it was still for that person’s good.

38:37 Speaker 1 Okay, but you have to live with that awareness. I want—I want—those stories won’t necessarily do it. Again, if I’m in victim mode, I’ll say, “Okay, and...?” I want a tip for how to live with that awareness.

38:49 Speaker 2 Um, wow.

38:50 Speaker 1 Do your children live with that awareness?

38:52 Speaker 2 Yes.

38:53 Speaker 1 Not everyone around you lives with that awareness.

38:55 Speaker 2 Right.

38:56 Speaker 1 Okay.

38:57 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

38:58 Speaker 1 So you understand that it’s a privilege to live with that awareness. I believe you went on a journey and did the work, and maybe your whole life story is part of it too.

39:10 Speaker 2 Yes.

39:11 Speaker 1 I have this saying—I don’t know if I’ve told you before—that I thank everyone I’ve ever been hurt by in my life.

39:21 Speaker 2 Yes, right, you told me that.

39:22 Speaker 1 Because I am who I am thanks to them.

39:24 Speaker 2 Right.

39:25 Speaker 1 Now I’ve changed the way I say it. At first I said, “Everyone who hurt me,” but I changed that in my mind to, “Nobody hurts me.”

39:33 Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly.

39:33 Speaker 1 Do I get hurt by people? Absolutely. But I am who I am today, and baruch Hashem, I’m happy with where I am right now. I’m on a journey, and that’s thanks to all those people we’ve encountered. So that, too, is living with an awareness of seeing Hakadosh Boruch Hu very, very clearly and being grateful.

39:48 Speaker 2 I think that in what I went through, I saw it so clearly in so many things. The fact that I was cheerful in the hospital and so on gave me acting lessons. And not taking that entrance exam kept me from being a frustrated teacher today. I mean, so many—

40:06 Speaker 1 Presumably.

40:07 Speaker 2 Presumably, presumably. I imagine I’d be frustrated if I were a teacher today. But there are so many things that, looking back, make me say to myself, “Wow, how fortunate that it happened that way,” and “Wow, how fortunate,” and “Thank You, Hashem, thank You, Hashem.” And there were other things too, those experiences of victimhood. There was more—the continuation of the shlichus, and what else...

40:27 Speaker 1 No, I’m sure, I’m sure. Of course. Your life story is like...

40:29 Speaker 2 I could tell you a million more things, but...

40:33 Speaker 1 But I think that even back then—one day you told me a very, very difficult shlichus story. Maybe I’ll do an episode about it; I don’t know if it would be worthwhile. But did you already have that awareness back then? Since when have you had this awareness of seeing Hakadosh Boruch Hu?

40:53 Speaker 2 Um, I think it really began when I was very, very young. Going onstage—the expectations, the responsibility, and the fear—they bring you to prayer, you know.

41:10 Speaker 1 To connect with Hakadosh Boruch Hu.

41:10 Speaker 2 To connect with Hakadosh Boruch Hu.

41:12 Speaker 1 Okay.

41:13 Speaker 2 I mean, there’s a very, very deep connection in going onstage at age ten...

41:24 Speaker 1 And understanding that it isn’t you.

41:25 Speaker 2 And understanding that it is.

41:26 Speaker 1 Wow, how wonderful.

41:28 Speaker 2 Something clicks there. There’s something about it.

41:31 Speaker 1 Incredible.

41:32 Speaker 2 And it’s stayed with me all the time.

41:34 Speaker 1 Yes, but in the end, that’s what you bring to the world today.

41:38 Speaker 2 Right.

41:38 Speaker 1 We’re just getting precise here: mothers, and the mothers’ club, and Somechat Alayich, and everything—it’s about trusting Him.

41:44 Speaker 2 Right.

41:45 Speaker 1 And He—

41:46 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

41:46 Speaker 1 He’s present in every moment of life. And when there’s a challenge... Did I tell you what happened to me last week?

41:51 Speaker 2 What?

41:52 Speaker 1 With the failure.

41:53 Speaker 2 Yes.

41:55 Speaker 1 So, in a word, I live knowing that I have neither successes nor failures. They’re all things Hakadosh Boruch Hu chooses to bring about through me.

42:02 Speaker 2 Exactly.

42:02 Speaker 1 Baruch Hashem, I live that way today. I didn’t always—I went on a journey through victimhood and all those places where I was. And it’s a kind of living in Geulah.

42:13 Speaker 2 Yes. Right. Right. And it’s something anyone can choose.

42:20 Speaker 1 But choosing to leave victimhood behind isn’t easy.

42:25 Speaker 2 Right.

42:25 Speaker 1 Because you give up so many very pleasurable things: “Everyone’s out to get me, people are mean to me, they’re awful, it’s because of my mother, because of my father, because of this, because of...”

42:36 Speaker 2 Yes.

42:36 Speaker 1 It’s very hard to leave that place.

42:37 Speaker 2 Right, but if you realize—if it dawns on you—that it won’t get you anywhere in life...

42:44 Speaker 1 Right.

42:44 Speaker 2 And if you want—

42:45 Speaker 1 Still, still, it’s hard to leave it behind.

42:47 Speaker 2 It really—

42:47 Speaker 1 And it’s interesting that this was the first month in the club.

42:49 Speaker 2 Right.

42:50 Speaker 1 But maybe we need to take it to a higher level, also for the benefit of those who join later and all that.

42:55 Speaker 2 Right.

42:56 Speaker 1 Even if the material already exists, you have to work on it and live with it. What was amazing was that in the month we worked on victimhood, you suddenly caught yourself in several situations like that. I mean, with every topic, you keep encountering yourself.

43:06 Speaker 2 Now we’re in the month of relationships. Do you know how much we argued?

43:09 Speaker 1 But how quickly did you stop?

43:11 Speaker 2 It was there.

43:11 Speaker 1 But how quickly did you stop?

43:13 Speaker 2 Very quickly.

43:14 Speaker 1 Incredible.

43:14 Speaker 2 But I had the insight—I mean, I let myself enjoy it for a moment.

43:21 Speaker 1 Yes.

43:22 Speaker 2 I mean, to recognize what was happening.

43:25 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

43:26 Speaker 2 I mean—

43:26 Speaker 1 It’s incredible.

43:27 Speaker 2 It’s...

43:27 Speaker 1 Because you’re living it. It’s happening to you, and you can see it.

43:30 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

43:31 Speaker 1 Wow, Michal, it’s a pleasure talking to you.

43:33 Speaker 2 And that really is the takeaway: what you focus on is what grows.

43:37 Speaker 1 Right.

43:37 Speaker 2 If you make your victimhood the focus of your life, it will only keep growing. You’ll see it again and again and again; it draws more of that same energy.

43:44 Speaker 1 Right.

43:44 Speaker 2 So if you want to succeed in life, if you really want to make the most of your talents, you need to focus—

43:49 Speaker 1 First of all, don’t focus on someone else.

43:52 Speaker 2 Right.

43:52 Speaker 1 If someone finishes this episode saying, “Okay, Michal can do it, but I can’t,” then she should listen to the episode again.

43:59 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Sorry.

44:03 Speaker 1 Because the whole point is to focus on myself, to come back to myself and say what I want and what’s going to happen. Focusing on someone else, in the model of the pipes, is rust. Victimhood is rust. It means I’m not growing or moving forward.

44:17 Speaker 2 Exactly.

44:18 Speaker 1 And ultimately, we came here to do the work, and it’s worth it.

44:22 Speaker 2 It’s more than worth it.

44:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

44:24 Speaker 2 Because nobody can change your life for you.

44:28 Speaker 1 Only you can.

44:28 Speaker 2 Nobody else.

44:29 Speaker 1 Ultimately, that’s the message: Hakadosh Boruch Hu gives us so much, showers us with such abundance. But let’s prepare the vessel. Let’s be the pipe that can carry it through.

44:38 Speaker 2 If we focus on other people—what they did to me, what they didn’t do, “She’s getting in my way,” “It’s because of her that I can’t,” “It’s because of him that I can’t”—

44:43 Speaker 1 There’s no chance.

44:44 Speaker 2 Then it simply won’t happen.

44:45 Speaker 1 So what’s your message to the listeners?

44:49 Speaker 2 Uh...

44:49 Speaker 1 Was the episode okay? Because I feel like...

44:51 Speaker 2 What? It was excellent. What do you mean, “okay”?

44:54 Speaker 1 No, you managed to go with the victim mindset, really to the point of tears.

44:59 Speaker 2 Absolutely. And I could keep going, and cry about plenty of other things that...

45:03 Speaker 1 But that’s actually interesting.

45:04 Speaker 2 ...happen in life.

45:04 Speaker 1 There’s an interesting exercise here for someone who’s never had a victim mindset: step into it for a second. You leave here thinking, “Wow, I have such a good life, because I chose to live in that light and see the good.”

45:18 Speaker 2 And my story, even if it’s hard, isn’t a story of victimhood at all. It’s what built me, and it’s...

45:28 Speaker 1 You know that. But I’m thinking about people who don’t. I think you also leave here with more compassion and understanding for the people who are there. Because if we want to help—if you want to help women in the club—

45:41 Speaker 2 I do have compassion and understanding, because I’ve also been through very difficult times in my life.

45:47 Speaker 1 But you were never in that mindset. You were never in that mindset.

45:52 Speaker 2 I’m not—give me one compliment. She won’t give me one.

45:54 Speaker 1 No.

45:55 Speaker 2 I’m not [unclear].

45:56 Speaker 1 You’re privileged. What can I do? Boruch Hashem.

45:58 Speaker 2 Right, because...

45:58 Speaker 1 But you can use that to give, to make an impact. Because of it, you have a very, very powerful channel of influence. But when you feel it and understand it, I think you can reach people and succeed even more.

46:12 Speaker 2 Right, but when I see someone in front of me who’s very, very caught up in victimhood, I can tell them very plainly how, in a second, they could stop seeing it that way.

46:23 Speaker 1 You know how to turn it around?

46:24 Speaker 2 Yes.

46:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

46:27 Speaker 2 I mean, someone who...

46:27 Speaker 1 Wait a second.

46:28 Speaker 2 ...says, “But they did this to me, they said that to me.” Okay, now you have a story. Now you have tools. Now you’ve learned something the hard way about what happens when...

46:36 Speaker 1 And how you move forward from there.

46:37 Speaker 2 And how you move forward from there. Exactly. I mean, I see even terribly difficult experiences as a springboard to success, a springboard for looking ahead—not as something that has to keep you stuck.

46:47 Speaker 1 Amen.

46:48 Speaker 2 A woman from the club called me. She has all sorts of difficulties and limitations, so she can’t do this and can’t do that, and she was wondering whether to stay. She doesn’t have access to this, and she can’t use that or the other thing. I said to her, “What do you have access to? What can you do?” She has access to the bot. “Okay, great. Let’s make the most of...” “No, but we’re doing a month on relationships now, and I’m divorced, and...” “Okay, I have no use for this because I’m divorced.” Okay. How long do you intend to be divorced? How long? Your whole life? Is there a possibility you’ll get married? Yes. Good, great. So...

47:22 Speaker 1 Move forward with it.

47:22 Speaker 2 Move forward. “No, but I also have limitations. Who would want me? Who...?” Wait a second. Why wouldn’t someone want you? Isn’t there someone else who...

47:30 Speaker 1 Did she manage to understand what you meant?

47:32 Speaker 2 Yes.

47:33 Speaker 1 Wow.

47:33 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. And she stayed.

47:35 Speaker 1 It’s just about always showing that there’s a way forward.

47:40 Speaker 2 There’s always a way forward.

47:40 Speaker 1 Always showing that there’s a way forward.

47:41 Speaker 2 There always, always is.

47:43 Speaker 1 Do you know what workshop I’m doing now? I run workshops and training sessions on artificial intelligence, and the ultra-Orthodox women are amazing, but their internet access is filtered. So...

47:59 Speaker 2 Good for them.

48:00 Speaker 1 Good for them.

48:00 Speaker 2 Good for them.

48:01 Speaker 1 But there’s a lot of victimhood there too.

48:05 Speaker 2 Right.

48:05 Speaker 1 I mean, for example, I might post a giveaway for something.

48:10 Speaker 2 “But we won’t be able to enter.”

48:11 Speaker 1 “My access is filtered; it won’t open.”

48:12 Speaker 2 Right.

48:12 Speaker 1 All sorts of things like that. Now, for the women who come... Okay, so there’s a lot of victimhood there. And what is the workshop I’m doing now? It’s about teaching that, ultimately, artificial intelligence is more about skills than tools. The tools may be blocked, but the skills are in our minds; nothing there is blocked. And also trying to understand and connect with that choice: “I chose to have this filtering. I chose to be religious. I chose to be...”

48:36 Speaker 2 Beautiful.

48:36 Speaker 1 I mean, not everyone sees it that way, but there is a choice. So rather than... Let’s say, “Yes, I chose to do this, and I’m very, very proud of it.” Let’s see how I can avoid a victim mindset there.

48:47 Speaker 2 Wow.

48:47 Speaker 1 And with filtered access and all those things, it’s very easy to slip into victimhood. So I’m doing a workshop like that soon in Modi’in Illit.

48:57 Speaker 2 Wow!

48:58 Speaker 1 Which is, like...

48:59 Speaker 2 Wow.

48:59 Speaker 1 ...the hardcore version of...

49:00 Speaker 2 Wow.

49:00 Speaker 1 And it’s for businesswomen. How not to fall into a victim mindset in that situation—because in any situation in life, you can see yourself as a victim.

49:07 Speaker 2 Right, right.

49:08 Speaker 1 So that’s...

49:09 Speaker 2 Wow. That idea of “you chose this way of life” is very powerful. Very, very, very, very powerful.

49:16 Speaker 1 And then... No, because what happens? Once I’ve made that choice, I feel everyone owes me something. She runs a giveaway: “Make something for those of us with filtered access too.” She does something else: “Make...”

49:24 Speaker 2 I come across it with... “So do...” With the wives of men studying Torah full-time.

49:29 Speaker 1 Exactly.

49:29 Speaker 2 I mean, they really do need...

49:33 Speaker 1 Support and help.

49:33 Speaker 2 Support and all that. But nobody owes you anything. If you chose this...

49:38 Speaker 1 Exactly.

49:38 Speaker 2 Then stand by it.

49:39 Speaker 1 But that’s part of it, part of that whole DNA. So I hope this episode gives people strength there, because ultimately, when you leave victimhood behind, you live in Geulah. You live in your own personal Geulah.

49:52 Speaker 2 Right.

49:53 Speaker 1 We’re not yet in the true and complete Geulah, but one person’s Geulah and then another person’s Geulah will bring it about. Let’s go.

49:59 Speaker 2 Wow, what an episode! Almost fifty minutes.

50:04 Speaker 1 It’s so nice talking with you. Too bad that...

50:06 Speaker 2 Yes. Chani Marzel, thank you so much.