Episode 61 - How to educate through the heart's sense of sight? | With Devorah Zigman, educator and high school principal

00:00 Speaker 1 What does a principal look for when she interviews a new student for the school? What does she say in a one-on-one conversation after a student breaks a rule of tznius? How does she get the grades on a student’s report card to rise without mentioning the word “grade”? And what works so well there that a student who lives in Netanya travels to study in Beit Shemesh? Come hear about education from a different angle—a different way of seeing souls that changes the whole picture. This podcast is for everyone: students, teachers, mothers, and really every woman, because we all have relationships with Divine souls and want to do the best we can. Come find inspiration and light. A reminder: if you liked the episode, don’t keep it to yourself. Just pass it on—to your sister, your mother, a neighbor, a friend, anyone who matters to you. My shlichus is to record; your shlichus is to share. To follow me on Instagram, search for Chani Moskowitz. To follow my status, book workshops and talks on life-changing tools from Chassidus, or join the digital “Chassidus by the Spoonful” program, it’s all at 050-850-5770. The intro, and then we’ll get started. How can we turn our lives into lives of shlichus, full of meaning? I’m Chani Moskowitz, a shlucha in Kharkiv, Ukraine, now continuing my shlichus in Karmei Gat, Israel. On this podcast, we’ll meet different women who will share their shlichus in a range of fields and, through it, help each of us find and refine our own shlichus in the world. Because living the life we were created for is as good as it gets. Shlichus as a Way of Life. We’re starting right now. Welcome to a new episode of Shlichus as a Way of Life. And today we’re with—ta-da!—Devorah Ziegman.

01:47 Speaker 2 Nice to meet you.

01:48 Speaker 1 How are you?

01:48 Speaker 2 Good morning. Good afternoon. Hello, Chani.

01:50 Speaker 1 Good afternoon. Yes, yes, yes.

01:52 Speaker 2 We’ve already had lunch.

01:53 Speaker 1 We’re on shift two, after—

01:57 Speaker 2 There was a morning with the kids. That doesn’t count.

02:00 Speaker 1 Doesn’t count. Right.

02:00 Speaker 2 Right.

02:01 Speaker 1 Today we want to talk about education. The word “education” interests me. When someone hears it, something immediately goes through her mind. First of all, is it something good, something stressful?

02:11 Speaker 2 I think it feels kind of burdensome. Oof.

02:12 Speaker 1 Right, like, what a heavy subject. Are we really going to talk about that now?

02:15 Speaker 2 Exactly.

02:16 Speaker 1 Like, let me switch to the next podcast. So no, don’t switch! And I really want us to speak to everyone. “Education” might make you think of a mother, a teacher, an educator—you know, someone kind of...

02:33 Speaker 2 Serious.

02:33 Speaker 1 Yes, serious.

02:34 Speaker 2 Right.

02:35 Speaker 1 That’s the opposite of what I mean. I want this to speak to grandmothers, to a fourteen-year-old girl, to a mother, a teacher, someone who used to be a teacher, someone who might be thinking of becoming a teacher. Really, to every woman. Because in the end, we’re all part of this picture of education in one way or another, often wearing several hats.

02:54 Speaker 2 It’s funny, because when I entered the world of education, I’d taken a long road to get there. I didn’t finish seminary and become a teacher, you know, the usual route. Not at all. I didn’t even finish college—there, I’ve said it. I never thought I’d be a teacher.

03:10 Speaker 1 You can tell us more about that from the beginning.

03:11 Speaker 2 I really never thought I’d be a teacher. It wasn’t even a possibility I was considering. I studied for two and a half years, got married, said, “What a waste of time and money,” and simply left. I worked in event production. You might say, “What does that have to do with education?” And really, what does it have to do with education?

03:23 Speaker 1 We met there too, on a tour.

03:24 Speaker 2 Right, right.

03:25 Speaker 1 At a school. I was a student.

03:27 Speaker 2 Right. So you ask, “What does that have to do with education?” It has a great deal to do with education. But I went on many, many journeys before reaching this point, where today I’m a high school principal. And just as an aside, I think a lot of people get married and want a steady job for life. I was like that too, and I’d ask myself, “Why do I keep changing jobs?” Today I’m so grateful. When I sit with a student now, I feel I can truly be there for her because of all those places I’ve been, both personally and professionally. I’m grateful for every job I’ve had. Even event production has to do with education. So when you say education isn’t only about being a teacher or a mother, I connect with that so strongly. I think all the richness I gathered along the way now comes into play when I meet a student. But it also comes into play with my children at home, with myself, and with the teachers—some my age and some older than me. It affects so many relationships. I think if we define it this way, education is another part of a relationship. And looking at it like that opens up a whole world. I’m sure we’ll talk more in a moment about how we get there.

04:32 Speaker 3 So we educate even without holding that official role.

04:35 Speaker 2 Of course.

04:36 Speaker 3 I mean, there you were, working in event production, or...

04:40 Speaker 2 Right, I think...

04:41 Speaker 3 I don’t know, a saleswoman in a store. She has an educational influence.

04:43 Speaker 2 Exactly. But I think that when we keep coming back to the word “education,” it really sounds so intimidating. Human relationships sound more natural, maybe? I don’t know. We’ll get to that, and to the process I went through.

04:54 Speaker 3 But it’s heavy.

04:55 Speaker 2 No, it isn’t heavy, because—as I see it—we live in a world of galus. We live in galus. That’s what I tell my teachers, myself, and my children: let’s be good people. To me, “let’s be good people” also means let’s be good principals, good teachers. Let’s just be good people. Let’s bring good into the world. That’s how I put it. Call it education, call it whatever you want.

05:12 Speaker 3 So if you’re a good person, presumably you’re also a good teacher or a good mother.

05:17 Speaker 2 It’s more than being a good teacher. It’s about approaching reality and whatever is happening with humility, and taking my ego and my own story out of it. “I’m the educator, I’m the principal”—I’m not the story here.

05:27 Speaker 3 The new authority.

05:29 Speaker 2 I don’t know. I’m really not someone who goes in for new approaches and labels like that. But I do think there’s something much more freeing here. Unfortunately, it really came from this place of galus. Enough—we can’t keep fighting; we can’t keep saying, “I’m worth more.” And again, this applies to friendships too. I’m not prettier, and I’m not worth more. We’re imperfect human beings in galus, and we’ll do our work with those imperfections. Yes, I say that to my students too, and my students know that their principal has shortcomings. I don’t spell them out for them, okay? But together, we’re trying to do the very best we can in this imperfect world. For me, this plays out in the principal’s chair, but it applies to every single person on earth. Nobody lives here on a deserted island, and even if someone did, she’d be living with herself—and she needs to be good to herself too. So I feel the real story isn’t about me coming in and pouring information into them, and certainly not about imposing some educational method to get where I want to go. There’s something very, very delicate here. It truly takes a great deal of humility and a great deal of listening to be as attuned as possible.

06:34 Speaker 3 That really connects with chapter 32 of Tanya and the whole idea of putting all the externals and the differences between us aside and seeing the Divine souls.

06:44 Speaker 2 Right.

06:44 Speaker 3 That’s pure love. And if I’m not mistaken, the Frierdiker Rebbe also talks in Kuntres HaChinuch VehaHadrachah about how, ultimately, love is the key to everything. Or maybe I’m mixing it up with another source.

06:56 Speaker 2 So I’ll tell you: when I invite a student for an interview at the school, the first question I ask her is, “What is a Chabad school?” Now, a lot of girls tell me, “They learn Tanya there, they learn Chassidus, they go out on mivtzoim, there’s 19 Kislev.” You know, those are the brave ones; the less brave ones stay quiet. And I tell them that’s not the point. That’s not what makes it a Chabad school. Because it’s a Chabad school, it has a Tanya class. Just as, because we’re Jewish, we blow the shofar. Does blowing the shofar define Judaism? Does it mean I’m Jewish? No. And then I share with them that, to me, a Chabad school means looking at the girls through the eyes of the Rebbe of Lubavitch. You started mentioning Tanya and Kuntres HaChinuch. I think that’s really what the Rebbe... If we truly want to open a Chabad school and get it right, we simply have to adopt the Rebbe’s outlook. The Rebbe loved every Jew. The Rebbe saw how eternal every Jew is, what light and goodness each one brings into the world, how much each one has to offer, how the world cannot manage without them. Yes, I ask the student when her birthday is, and I explain to her—at this point they all sort of breathe a sigh of relief—that Hakadosh Boruch Hu wasn’t bored that day, and she didn’t arrive here by chance. She has a very, very, very specific role, and our job as educators in a Chabad school is to help her bring that light into the world. First of all, to discover it, because sadly, many girls at that age have already lost their spark. They no longer know what they’re good at. They’ve been through a lot, a lot of what the world brings. Again, galus, as we said.

08:15 Speaker 3 Because today everything starts so early, in second through fifth grade. The challenges we faced may not have come until eighth grade.

08:19 Speaker 2 Right, but you know, it doesn’t always have to be challenges caused by the education system. Sometimes they’ve simply accumulated negative experiences, and by the time they get to high school, some of them no longer believe in themselves. They’ve lost their spark; of course, they think they have no talents at all. Our job is to remind them who they are, to help them rediscover that light. And I always tell them, “But it doesn’t stop with you. What are you going to do with it next? What are you going to do with it next?” Now, you know, sometimes that can sound like, “So what? It’s a school full of love and hugs, with no boundaries?” I remember when we opened the school, one of the women who founded it—I was actually brought in to run it—said to me, “But Devorah, where are the boundaries?” We were sitting on the twelfth floor, and I said to her, “We’re sitting on the twelfth floor right now. Would you agree that neither of us would debate whether the balcony needs a railing?” Obviously, on the twelfth floor, that’s not up for debate. But we can discuss what to do on the balcony. Maybe have a barbecue there? Maybe put a trampoline there for the kids? Maybe stand and enjoy the view and watch the sunset? That’s what we need to discuss. Of course a school needs boundaries, absolutely. But sadly, once we’ve put the boundaries in place, we sometimes forget what we’re about, what the real point is. What are those boundaries for?

09:27 Speaker 3 What happens within those boundaries.

09:28 Speaker 2 Yes. And I’ll share that I went through a process myself. I really, really love teenage girls. I love people in general. I love teenage girls, I believe in them, and I see how amazing they are and how you can talk with them. But at a certain point in my work, I found myself operating very much, I’ll call it, like everyone else. I mean, I was a very nice, very understanding principal, and I was also very, very careful about boundaries. That’s very, very important to me. Maybe we’ll touch on that in a moment. And one day I felt that something here wasn’t right. Something wasn’t right. Yes, I was a nice principal, but that wasn’t it. That wasn’t the point. I remember driving to Kfar Chabad—a long drive—and thinking the whole way. I felt I needed to figure something out here... I was looking at it almost like a business: I needed to solve some sort of operational problem. Something wasn’t working right. The next day we had a staff meeting about the students. Now, in a school meeting like that, you go through every girl—I’m taking a deep breath already—and talk about her: how her grades are, whether she’s doing well, whether she pays attention.

10:22 Speaker 3 I experienced that once, and that was enough for me.

10:23 Speaker 2 Yes, and it’s tough. It’s tough. It can be very, very unpleasant sometimes. But I said to myself, something here needs to happen differently. Then I had an idea: at the next meeting, I would start by saying a chapter of Tehillim, so that we’d merit to get it right for the girls, and to really understand that the girls are what this is about, not us. And then I realized that in what I was doing at school, I was also like everyone else. I’d become another person in the education system, looking all day at—well, when people talk about the education system in Israel today, it’s so much about grades and matriculation exams and performance, performance. So yes, I was very, very nice, but I was still stuck there. I was still stuck in that focus on performance. I was a nice principal, and I’d be more understanding of the girls’ feelings.

11:03 Speaker 3 To some extent, there are demands on you.

11:06 Speaker 2 Right, but that’s not the point.

11:07 Speaker 3 I mean, you yourself have to meet certain standards—

11:11 Speaker 2 Right.

11:11 Speaker 3 —with all your students, for—

11:13 Speaker 2 But the way to get there is too narrow. All day long we’re preoccupied with it. We sit in a meeting and focus on whether she studies well or not, whether she disrupts the lesson or doesn’t disrupt it. And I said, “Wait, wait, wait, wait. We’re looking at everything along one axis.” Yes, there may be principals who are tougher by nature, while I’m softer and nicer by nature, but we’re still talking about performance. I said, “Th-that’s not the point.” If we really, truly want girls to graduate after twelfth grade strong on the inside—not just with strong matriculation results, but genuinely well-grounded, girls who’ve gone through a process of growing up and getting to know themselves—I felt I had to move away from the performance axis. I had to jump to a different one.

11:48 Speaker 3 Tell us a little more. By “the performance axis,” do you mean that when I look at a person—let me see if I’ve understood you correctly—I’m basically looking at what’s visible on the outside?

11:57 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

11:58 Speaker 3 What meets the eye.

11:59 Speaker 2 Right.

11:59 Speaker 3 Basically.

12:00 Speaker 2 And that’s what we see.

12:00 Speaker 3 Does she arrive on time? Does she chat during class? Does she not chat during class?

12:04 Speaker 2 Does she dress modestly or not?

12:06 Speaker 3 Does she disrupt things or not?

12:06 Speaker 2 Exactly.

12:06 Speaker 3 Where her skirt falls, which button is fastened, which button isn’t.

12:10 Speaker 2 Yes.

12:10 Speaker 3 And she gets some kind of score, and that’s, that’s—

12:14 Speaker 2 The measure of her.

12:14 Speaker 3 The sum total of how we see her.

12:15 Speaker 2 And then our perfect graduate is the one with good grades, the one who arrives on time. The graduate who, on the face of it, has checked every box on the list. And that’s not it. It’s just not. I’ll be honest with you: as a principal, it’s very pleasant for me. It’s very easy with those students. And by the way, I have to say something about them, too. Once, in a staff meeting, when this “perfect student” came up, I said to the teachers, “Wait, wait, let’s stop. I’m asking you to allow her not to be perfect. I’m asking you to allow her to ask challenging questions. She isn’t asking them, and I’m not telling you to encourage her to, but please stop seeing her as so perfect. Because no human being is perfect. A girl that age goes through things, and on the surface, her performance is all one hundred percent, so we can just move on. Stop for a moment.” We’ve spoken about this before: look at the girls for whom everything seems fine. Give them the option of being a little less than fine, too. I’m certainly not trying to encourage girls to disrupt class, not at all. But I do want to put some question marks next to that checklist.

13:08 Speaker 3 Because there’s something there.

13:09 Speaker 2 Because there’s a soul there.

13:10 Speaker 3 So let’s help her.

13:11 Speaker 2 Because that soul isn’t just a checklist.

13:12 Speaker 3 If she isn’t a complete tzaddik according to Tanya, then she has some kind of struggle that simply isn’t visible.

13:18 Speaker 2 Right, and maybe—maybe we’re not a safe space for her, and she isn’t ready to bring that side of herself to us. Maybe all she gives us is a shopping list. You know, I want to come back to the question of relationships in a moment, but I had a student who, one day—and I hope my listeners will forgive me for saying this—her teachers were really complaining that her top button was open. It happened suddenly. For a while everything had been fine, and then they said, “What’s going on with her? Her button is open, her button…” I told them, “Listen, I’ll call her in for a conversation, but between us, I’m delighted. I’m delighted that her friends finally matter to her.” You know, sometimes a girl is impressed by friends who don’t exactly follow the rules at school. But until then, she had wanted my approval. Everything about her was perfect. She wanted the principal to think well of her. Finally, at her age, her friends matter to her. Friends should matter to a girl her age, and now she’s allowing herself to open that button because of her friends—because she thinks that’s what they’ll like. In any case, thank G-d, we worked through it with her, and she’s really not in that place now. But I told the teachers, “I’m delighted.” It’s awkward to say, but I really was delighted. I called her in, and we talked, and I don’t let a student walk around with her button open. That’s not the point. But quietly, to myself, I thought, “How wonderful, how wonderful.” Finally, she was thinking about her friends. That’s the shift from focusing on performance—seeing that her button is closed and thinking, “Great, this girl isn’t giving me any trouble”—to seeing who she really is. That day, when I understood that, I realized I could go back to school and look at how she was doing.

14:40 Speaker 2 For me, that’s the magic question. You know, sometimes when someone asks, “How are you?” it can feel like they’re pestering you. But not in this case. How—

14:47 Speaker 3 Like today on WhatsApp: “Devorah, how are you? I wanted to ask whether such-and-such is part of…”

14:52 Speaker 2 Right, but I told the teachers, “Wait. Let’s stop for a moment.”

14:54 Speaker 3 There’s something going on behind a student’s behavior.

14:55 Speaker 2 This was also around the time when I really had a lot of disciplinary problems with various students. You know how it goes: “Let’s call the parents,” and—first of all, before calling the parents, I told a teacher, “Wait. Ask yourself what the Rebbe would say right now, before you call the parents. Yes, this student disrupted your lesson. Yes, she isn’t following the rules. But wait—if you were to go to the Rebbe right now, what would he say to you?” And the second thing that came to me that evening was: enough. We’re done looking at this only in terms of whether she disrupted the lesson or not. Why does a student disrupt a lesson? Why does a Chabad girl feel the need to be defiant when her teacher is teaching a Chabad subject? Why? That shouldn’t happen in the first place. Something is going on here. Ask yourself what happened. I don’t think there’s a child in the world—or, if we’re talking about relationships in general, anyone—who wants to be bad. I don’t believe that. Why have we reached a situation where a girl needs to be noticed for being disruptive? Why? The next morning we had a staff meeting, and I shared with the teachers that we were going to stop focusing only on performance. Incidentally, we would come back to it in the end. Once we focused on the relationship, performance improved tremendously. And I’ll give you an example in a moment. But we were shifting our focus from performance to relationships. What’s going on? Why? How are you? We opened the meeting with a chapter of Tehillim, and I told them that from now on, we weren’t going to jump straight to, “Fine, is she learning or not?” First, we would bring up every—by the way, I know there are schools, and I very much respect this, that have many, many students, so at these meetings they’re always discussing the girls with

16:21 Speaker 2 problems. I said, “That isn’t fair.”

16:24 Speaker 3 [unclear]

16:25 Speaker 2 It isn’t fair. I wish I could sit down every week and talk about every student in the school. I feel that these meetings are what we’re here for. This is why we came. Yes, it takes a great deal of time. Sometimes we don’t have the energy to sit there anymore. But what are we here for, if not this? To stop for a moment and talk about every girl. You know what? Let’s talk about the girls who are doing well. When we have time, let’s start with them. Because the girls with problems—“the problematic girls,” what a label—the girls who are having trouble with their performance, we talk about them all day. But when did we last stop and talk about Chani, Dini, Esti, Shula, whoever it may be, when everything seems fine with her? That’s why it’s very hard for me to hear people say, “Well, never mind.” No, that’s not the point. So I told the teachers that our first question would be: “How is she? How does she seem to you? Does she come to school with a smile? Is she happy? Is she sad? Is she comfortable here? Does it seem to you that she’s comfortable? Does it seem to you that she has friends? Does she like school?” That’s the first question. The next question was, “Who spoke with her recently? Which teacher made a connection with her?” The truth is that at our last meeting, sadly, we discovered that there were many girls who hadn’t had that conversation. So, as a staff, we made a good decision. We divided up all the girls in the school. Each teacher was given five girls, so that when she lights Shabbos candles on Friday evening, she can say, “I noticed her this week. I complimented her on her socks, her shoes, her hairstyle. I asked her how her test went. I saw her.” As principal, I want to know that I haven’t missed a single student in the school—that every student has someone who sees her. And then we said, if

17:51 Speaker 2 we’re thinking about her at the end of the week anyway, each teacher should have her students’ names and their mothers’ names and daven for them when she lights candles. We have a large staff. But she stands there lighting candles and davens for that student. One teacher told me that, because of this, when she was having difficulty with a student, she decided to say that student’s chapter of Tehillim. That came out of what we discussed at the meeting: seeing her. She isn’t davening for the girl to do better in math. That’s not the point. The point is that when you’re lighting candles, don’t think about how she studied that day. Think: Did I see her? Did I notice if she changed something about her hairstyle? Did I even notice whether she came to school? Did I see her? I want to be able to rest easy, because unfortunately I can’t reach everyone. I wish I could. I do make a point, several times a year—

18:30 Speaker 3 How many students are there in the school now?

18:30 Speaker 2 Fifty-plus. I do make a point, several times a year, of setting aside my other work and sitting down for a personal conversation with every student. But what I’m saying is that, first and foremost, I want to know there isn’t a girl in the school who was overlooked because she’s a “good girl.” There’s no such thing. Everyone needs to be seen. So that was our second question. The third thing was that we made hearts with each student’s name on them, and I asked that we receive a gift from each student. By “gift,” I mean one of her qualities: she smiles a lot, she’s very polite, she’s very pleasant. We would write down that quality and put it up in the teachers’ room. Then, if you’ve had a hard day and that student was very disruptive, or very rude to you, or whatever it was, you come into the teachers’ room and say, “Wow, I had a hard day. Shoshana”—I don’t have a Shoshana at school, so I can use the name—“Shoshana wouldn’t stop chatting today.” Then you look up and see that it says Shoshana is very sociable. And you say, “That’s right. Wow, she has that in her. She’s a good girl.” Then you go back into the classroom feeling much more at ease. Those were the first three things. Only then did we get to her performance, her schoolwork—thinking about it in light of who she is: “She’s such a cheerful girl, such a quick girl. What’s going on?” And I have to say, the discussion among the teachers was amazing. Suddenly, we could see her differently. She doesn’t have to be silent from eight until four. Excuse me, I wasn’t silent as a student, and if my teachers are listening, they’re the best witnesses. No, I wasn’t the kind of student who could sit quietly. But how do we, just for a moment—for example—

19:56 Speaker 2 I have a student who’s also very, very smart, very, very... I said to them, let’s give her a role. Let’s tell her she needs to take a ninth-grade student and teach her math, tutor her. Enough—she finds it hard to sit through class all the time, so let’s take her out of class. Instead of having her leave on her own, and then we go looking for her on the grass and catch her sneaking out, let’s think outside the box. This girl doesn’t need to sit in the classroom all the time. She’s a smart girl; she knows the material. Enough. We’re—sorry to say it—hurting her by stifling her this way. Now, you’re right, there’s a rigid system—there’s no—this is uncomfortable, and I hope the teachers here will forgive me, but these days students can learn the material ahead of us. They know it; there are so many learning tools available now. Let’s see her, her inner self, because she can’t take care of that on her own. She isn’t going to get private tutoring for her inner self. That’s what we’re here for. And if a student finishes the math material a moment before everyone else and then disrupts the teacher for the rest of the lesson, let’s take her out and have her sit with a girl in ninth grade during that time. Or—I saw a teacher here who really gave a student a role. Suddenly that girl stopped leaving class all the time, because she was going out with permission to do specific things. That doesn’t mean she was out all day. Before the teacher gave her a role, she was constantly sneaking out. Once the teacher gave her a role, she didn’t need to sneak out anymore. And that was really the point: moving from a focus on functioning to a focus on the relationship. Now, I have to say, it didn’t stay in the teachers’ lounge. It carried over to my relationship with

21:14 Speaker 2 the students. The big thing for me with the students is human relationships—respect, trust. Yesterday there was a Bnos Chabad convention, and my students performed there. It was also very, very important to me that they make use of their talents. There was a situation where some girls came with something that wasn’t appropriate, and one of the Bnos Chabad organizers said to me, “Devorah, do you know what was most moving? Not one of them tried to sneak past me. Not one tried to hide it. I didn’t catch a single one going up onstage afterward when she wasn’t dressed appropriately. They all came over and said, ‘Wait, so how do we solve the problem?’” They understood there was a problem, that something wasn’t appropriate. They’re human beings. They’re teenage girls. Come on, they’re not computers. But we solve the problem together. Once a student told me, “Principal, you’re always saying you listen, but you’re the least willing to listen.” I asked her, “Why?” She said, “Because you won’t budge on the boundaries. You just won’t. You don’t allow us smartphones. We want smartphones, and you won’t allow them.” I told them, “Listen, I’m not going to move the boundaries, but we will talk about how to deal with them.” And students who had smartphones, even though they were forbidden, did come into my office. You know, the natural feeling is, The principal will throw me out. But I didn’t throw them out. Together we found a way to get rid of the smartphone, follow the school rules, and not have you fall apart. And that’s really my biggest thing: human relationships. I tell the girls—and I told them, “Listen, it’s easiest to hide things from me, because I don’t open your bags. I don’t go around—I don’t live in Beit Shemesh, going around checking up on you.”

22:28 Speaker 4 You go around in the evenings and...?

22:29 Speaker 2 No, I manage just fine—once I accidentally saw someone, and my heart sank. Do you know what happened when I saw someone who wasn’t quite following the dress code? I called her in for a conversation two months later, not that evening, and I said, “Listen, honestly, I’m speaking to you now for your sake.” She took it in such a way—she said to me, “Principal, you’re the only person who manages to see my outer appearance and then tells me—sorry, who really sees who I am inside and then tells me, ‘The way you look on the outside doesn’t suit you. I can’t believe I saw you like that.’ I’ve always experienced people seeing how I look on the outside and then not believing that inside I really am a good person, because look—my appearance doesn’t fit.” She told me, “You’re the only person who managed to see who I am inside and then say, ‘Wow, the way you look on the outside doesn’t suit you.’” She said, “Principal, erase it.” I told her, “Erased. I didn’t see you.” And she is an amazing person. She’s a person—you know, we’re on that level of “Chassidic, not Chassidic.” What an amazing person! What good decisions she makes. What a person, doing the work. Because, as I keep saying, she wasn’t born with a checklist of tick, tick, tick. She’s a person doing the work. And I think what moves me most as a principal is that a student can come and share difficult things with me, and she’ll ask, “Principal, aren’t you going to throw me out?” And once I said to a student, “No. Would I throw you out if you tell me you’re going to work this out?” That student stayed in school and did incredible work. But the starting point of that work with her was human relationships. Let’s be human beings. You’re

23:42 Speaker 2 a human being; you’re growing. We’re here to help you grow. Now, at first it’s terribly hard for them. At the start of ninth grade, wow, it’s quite something—and there are also students who join us in the middle of the year. It’s a journey with them, because they’re used to sneaking around and, come on, let’s hide it from the principal.

23:56 Speaker 4 Right, there’s an established pattern. I can tell you, if I go back for a moment to my own experience as a student, a personal conversation with a teacher isn’t always enjoyable.

24:05 Speaker 2 Right.

24:06 Speaker 4 It might be embarrassing; maybe you have to prepare for it.

24:09 Speaker 2 It’s funny—I told you I call students in for personal conversations. So before Rosh Hashanah, I give each ninth-grade girl a machzor with her name on it. In tenth and eleventh grade it’s different, but that’s a time for a personal conversation, for example. I also call them in before report cards. It’s very, very, very important to me to look every student in the eye—how often? Four times a year. It’s funny: when the girls go back to class, their friends count how long they were with the principal. “You were there for two minutes; you were there for five.” The ones who count the most are the ones who beg to sit with me longer. Now, it’s a natural reaction—with their friends around, it’s embarrassing, and, “What do I have to talk about with the principal? Everything’s fine.” But once we peel away those layers, once we’re talking as equals and... Yes, today I called in a student who came wearing a skirt that wasn’t part of the uniform. It’s funny, because she came into the office laughing. And yes, she won’t do it again. I know she won’t come again in that skirt with the slit, but it wasn’t a conversation about exerting authority. It was a conversation of, “Explain to me why. No, really, explain to me why. I truly want to understand.” I’m telling you, Chani, I’m absolutely certain she won’t wear that skirt to school again—unless something really unexpected happens. Now, it’s not that the skirt was immodest; it just wasn’t part of the uniform. But the conversation was, “Explain it to me. I really want to understand.” And I have to tell you that I’ve changed in this respect too, because at first I would feel hurt, and I

25:21 Speaker 2 I’m not embarrassed to say it. I hear from teachers, too, that it’s terribly hurtful. You speak to a student about something, and the next day she does it again. It’s really, really, really hurtful. So one day I sat down with my students for a conversation. I had a column in the girls’ paper, and we would sit and talk. In that conversation, I brought up all kinds of situations I found difficult with the students, and they brought up situations they found difficult with the teachers. Each side explained where they were coming from. I brought up how hard it was for me that I’d spoken to a student on Thursday about wearing her hair down, and she told me, “It won’t happen again, it won’t happen again,” and on Sunday it happened. I said to them, “Explain this to me. Was she fooling me? In that moment, she…” And they explained it so beautifully. They said, “Principal, you’re not…” In simple terms, what I came away with was: you’re not the story. She is. Maybe she thinks it’s cool, in front of her friends, to be the girl who doesn’t listen to the principal. Maybe—I don’t know—she really can’t stand how she looks otherwise. And suddenly I understood: I’ll keep my boundaries, and that student won’t come to school with her hair down. But that isn’t the story at all. The story isn’t that she hurt me. She has her own story, so let’s listen to it. And I’m very, very careful to tell the students: “Listen, these are the boundaries. We’re not changing them. But it isn’t me and the boundary on one side and you on the other. We’ll sit together and think about how to put the boundaries into practice. We’ll both be up against the boundary.” By “up against the boundary,” I mean we’ll keep it, but we’ll recognize that there’s a certain difficulty in it. So that’s why I—

26:40 Speaker 2 say that this whole focus on relationships has carried over into my connection with the girls. Listen, I’ve had teachers tell me, “Your conversations are gold. Maybe you should charge parents for the conversations you have?” No. I just bring honesty and sincerity. We’re human beings. And yes, my students are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. Come on, at fourteen, I’d already have them babysit my children. If I would entrust the most precious thing in the world to my students, and I trust and believe in them, there’s no reason I shouldn’t trust and believe in them here. It’s a process. As you said, they come from a very, very… It doesn’t happen at the beginning of ninth grade. It’s a process, a long process, and you have to take a deep breath. But I’ve seen that you lose nothing by being truthful, sincere, and straightforward in any relationship.

27:21 Speaker 4 I think what you said earlier is, in a way, the key to everything. You said, “It isn’t about me.” Now, when we take our own “me” out of the picture, we’ve essentially taken the animal soul out of it. And the Mitteler Rebbe, if I’m not mistaken, said that when two Jews talk together, it’s two G-dly souls against one natural soul. That’s why it’s such an amazing thing: when you genuinely want what’s best for the other person, your animal soul isn’t part of the story.

27:47 Speaker 2 Right. I think that—

27:48 Speaker 4 You’re thinking about her, because then everything… After all, what is this focus on relationships that you keep talking about? It’s seeing who she is inside.

27:55 Speaker 2 Right.

27:56 Speaker 4 It’s seeing beyond that. After all, we’re all dealing with this struggle all the time.

28:00 Speaker 2 I think that, first of all, to see beyond that and everything else, you first have to start with the assumption that she is good, that everything is good, and that all the rest is the galus there.

28:08 Speaker 4 Yes.

28:08 Speaker 2 That isn’t who she is. I mean, she—

28:09 Speaker 4 We all struggle to see the good in ourselves, and at that age it’s even harder. And you’re coming to her and saying, “Let me help you. Let me help you. Look, instead of disrupting the lesson, there’s something good in you. Come, do something with it.”

28:22 Speaker 2 Right.

28:22 Speaker 4 And then—

28:23 Speaker 2 But when you understand that she’s disrupting the lesson—

28:25 Speaker 4 It’s just happening because it’s happening.

28:26 Speaker 2 Not because she wants to annoy you. You’re not the story here at all.

28:28 Speaker 4 Exactly.

28:28 Speaker 2 I think another thing that can help us understand that we’re not the story is this sense of shlichus. Now, “a sense of shlichus”—you know, that can sound like a well-packaged slogan. But I mean a deep understanding that if we met here through Divine Providence—listen, Hashem runs the world. And if I’m sitting in the principal’s chair, which is the most unlikely thing—as I told you, I didn’t finish seminary; I went back to it years later—

28:51 Speaker 4 You can tell us how you got there.

28:52 Speaker 2 Yes. If I’m sitting there in the principal’s chair, and this student has arrived… You know, I have a student who’s originally from Jerusalem, from the neighborhood where I live. We didn’t meet there; we met in Beit Shemesh. There’s a Divine story here. I have a role in guiding her, in being the significant adult on this journey with her. I’m not the story. Hakadosh Boruch Hu is the story, and because Hakadosh Boruch Hu is the story, that goes with us into everything at school. Once I had an argument with my sisters—my sisters are shluchos—and they told me, “Wow, Devorah, you’re going overboard.” And I told them, “No, I’m just… You’re shluchos.” This came up because 11 Nissan is the Rebbe’s birthday. I try to go to each student’s home—not necessarily on the day itself, but around that time—and have a private farbrengen with her. Because throughout the year, our approach is to talk about the Rebbe and how much the Rebbe believes in you, but we all experience that together, as a school. On 11 Nissan, I want to go to each girl’s home. I don’t go inside, don’t worry. I ask her to come downstairs, and I bring a little cup for a l’chaim and a cookie, and each year I bring a different gift. One year it’s a Pesach Haggadah, another year it’s a book of stories about the Rebbe. I don’t have an idea for this year yet. I’d love to hear suggestions.

29:52 Speaker 4 That’s beautiful.

29:52 Speaker 2 My aim is to go down to her and tell her, “You know, on Chavakuk Street, there’s a girl the Rebbe cares about and loves. The Rebbe sees you.” It’s a five-minute farbrengen, and then together we decide on a good resolution that she’ll take on. But that’s what you do. When my sisters heard about it, they told me, “You’re crazy.” I mean, come on—thirty girls last year, and this year, G-d willing, fifty.

30:12 Speaker 4 Wow.

30:12 Speaker 2 And not all of them live in Beit Shemesh. I travel all over the country. But I said to them, “Excuse me, what’s the difference between me and you? When you send packages to members of your community in every corner of your continent, isn’t that the same thing?” And I say that when you see it as a shlichus, it stops being about me, my salary, and my working hours. And you know how enjoyable that is? Chani, I have to tell you, it’s fun. It’s a celebration. I feel like I’m celebrating life in this job. At every moment, you understand that Hakadosh Boruch Hu is giving you purpose. You could look at it as a burden, but it’s so not a burden when you understand. Think about it: every single day, I’m bringing light into the world. What I do matters tremendously. Hakadosh Boruch Hu believes in me anew every day. If I ended up becoming a principal—listen, Hakadosh Boruch Hu is incredibly creative—but He believes in me. I travel to see the girls. Do you know how nice it is to see them on the streets where they live, in their own neighborhoods? It’s enjoyable; it isn’t a burden. I don’t see it as a burden. Not because I’m some kind of person. No, that isn’t the story, because the story here—

31:12 Speaker 4 Because you take yourself out of the story.

31:13 Speaker 2 The story here is Hakadosh… I don’t know. I think I took myself out of it partly because I’ve gotten a little older and understood that, enough—I’ve been through enough in life to understand how much we are not the story. I actually studied for a degree in therapy, you know.

31:21 Speaker 4 Yes, but I can tell you there are people who go on living with their ego front and center until they’re 120, so it isn’t just that.

31:26 Speaker 2 Right.

31:27 Speaker 4 It’s a matter of—

31:28 Speaker 2 But they’re so unfortunate. Because honestly, I’m telling you—

31:30 Speaker 4 Of course. I’m saying it’s a matter of awareness, and of using the insights of Chassidus.

31:34 Speaker 2 Listen, I went to study therapy, okay? On this journey, after producing events, I went to study therapy. Hakadosh Boruch Hu arranged things so that I would become—

31:40 Speaker 4 What kind of therapy?

31:41 Speaker 2 Psychodrama. A master’s degree at Mivchar College. I worked very hard to get in.

31:45 Speaker 4 Wait, so what about your bachelor’s degree? Just a moment.

31:47 Speaker 2 Wait, we’ll come back to him, but I’m saying, in general, I... First of all, I thank Hashem that I studied, because it gives me so much at school, you know? But I never dreamed of becoming a principal. I understand that Hakadosh Boruch Hu is the one directing us, and that’s that. And then, when I sit with a student and she says to me, “Principal, why do you want to help me? Honestly, why?” I tell her, “Because Hakadosh Boruch Hu brought us together.” So she says, “Then I’ll tell you something, Principal. I’m sorry, this might hurt you—I really am sorry—but I think everyone has an agenda. Everyone has their own interests.” So I said to her, “You know what? I believe Hakadosh Boruch Hu brought us together, and you and I aren’t the story. Hakadosh Boruch Hu is the story. But you know what? I’ll go along with you. Let’s say I’m doing it for my ego. I want things to go well for you, and that will make me feel that what I do matters. What do you care? What do you care? In the end, things will go well for you.” She really connected with that. But I keep coming back to this story, and I think it isn’t only about a mother and daughter. It isn’t only... It’s even about me and myself. Understanding that Hakadosh Boruch Hu gave me this soul to work with. Let’s be good to it; let’s listen to it. Let’s not hate ourselves or be full of self-criticism: Why did I do that? Why did I say that? Why? Let’s try to see beyond the actions, beyond that judgment, because when it comes to actions, judgment is our best friend

33:03 Speaker 2 ...Let’s let go of that for a moment and understand what’s behind it. And boruch Hashem, the results—and I’m coming back to how they function, because as you said to me, in the end they have to take their matriculation exams, and in the end... Listen, it works wonders. You don’t have to fight with the girl anymore. She learns the material; she arrives on time. When you take away the whole “Why weren’t you on time? You need to come on time” thing—it’s amazing. Now, I sometimes fall into that too, because it’s the easy, quick response. Who wants to sit down and have a conversation with her now?

33:28 Speaker 5 It’s automatic.

33:29 Speaker 2 It’s automatic, and it’s easy, and it just comes out. But it doesn’t accomplish anything. I haven’t seen it accomplish anything; it’s only caused damage. But the moment you stop and really see her—listen, that student is a gem. The student who ends up learning best is the one who feels connected to the school. Afterward, she helps you pass it on. She’s already telling the other girls, “Come on, just go along with the principal.” I’m talking about the eleventh-grade class. We’re a growing school, so we go up to eleventh grade. That class is my baby; they’ve been through this whole process with us. They’re connected to—by now it’s in their souls, and they’re the best ambassadors going forward. And you see them. You see girls who have done the work. You have no idea how moving it is for me to see these girls.

34:04 Speaker 5 It works wonders.

34:05 Speaker 2 And I get feedback about it from the community: these are girls with a solid foundation, girls who have done the work, girls who asked questions and weren’t afraid to ask. They brought their whole selves. You know, sometimes what scares me most about being a principal is what will happen after twelfth grade. My greatest fear is that I’ll educate them toward something special, and after twelfth grade they’ll say, “Okay, Principal, bye. We’re doing whatever we want.” And I really know—

34:24 Speaker 5 But that’s about how they function again.

34:25 Speaker 2 Right. Why? Because I spent the whole day focused on how they function. Because all day I made sure they looked perfect, perfect, perfect, and I didn’t see them. So what happens after twelfth grade? It doesn’t hold up. And then the way they function shifts elsewhere. I know. I’m talking to you about this eleventh-grade class, for example, or, with Hashem’s help, the other classes we’re working with: nothing they do after twelfth grade will surprise me. Whatever foolish things the girls do, I won’t be surprised, because they truly brought themselves to school. And a girl who’s struggling—she’s struggling now, and she’ll still have to deal with it after twelfth grade. And a girl who’s worked on herself—no one can take that away from her. I feel like none of them are fooling me. None of them are pretending to be one thing so the principal will relax and everything will be fine, only for me to be surprised after twelfth grade. I’m sure that who they are now is who they’ll continue to be, because they’ve truly built themselves. I had a conversation with a student who said, “I’ve been thinking about doing something. No, but I’ll do it after twelfth grade.” I told her, “Sweetheart, do it now. If you’re really thinking of doing it, do it now. Come on, let’s not lie to ourselves and say, ‘After twelfth grade I’ll do whatever I want.’ No. Do it now. Let’s talk about it now. Why do you want to do it? Why do you want to go against your values? What’s making you want to go against your parents? Let’s talk about it.” And listen, the things they share are incredible. Incredible. I had a student who told me, “Wow, I was sure you’d end up kicking me out.” But no.

35:36 Speaker 5 You know, of all the girls who were sure they’d be kicked out, which ones actually were?

35:38 Speaker 2 I didn’t kick girls out, but yes, there were students we realized it wasn’t right for them to stay. And honestly, we found them other places, with warmth and care. I mean to the point that today I can send them a message: How are you? What’s going on? Happy birthday. In the end they told me, “Principal, maybe we won’t switch schools after all.” I told them, “Listen, it would be a shame for you to stay here. Our school has rules.” I don’t know, they came from homes that were too open for this school. And it really was a constant issue with meeting expectations, because no amount of work helped; they had different outlooks and circumstances. So we went and found suitable schools. And I’m telling you, it was done with love. There isn’t one of them I’d see on the street and be angry with, or who’d be angry with me. It simply wasn’t the right fit for the school. And by the way, that idea I opened with, about the Lubavitcher Rebbe—I tell them first of all, this isn’t about testing you orally right now. No. It’s a meeting to see whether it’s a good fit. Because if a girl enters a school that isn’t right for her, how hard it is for her to leave afterward and look for another school. What for? Let’s see if we’re a match. And I’ve had such sweet girls, genuinely lovely girls, but it wasn’t a fit. They wouldn’t have been able to keep the school’s rules. It wasn’t a fit. They’d already spent many, many years—

36:40 Speaker 6 How did they end up, like, at...

36:42 Speaker 2 At the school? You know, it’s a Chabad school. Maybe they studied in Chabad schools, maybe they heard good things about this school. They really, really wanted to get in, but I understood that for years they’d been living with expectations very different from the school’s. Okay? I don’t know. They have a smartphone, and they’re not going to get rid of it, and that’s not allowed here.

36:56 Speaker 6 Okay, we won’t get into that topic now, but it’s interesting.

36:58 Speaker 2 It’s very interesting. We’re in the middle of a process; we’ll get there.

37:01 Speaker 6 It’s enrollment season now.

37:02 Speaker 2 Right.

37:03 Speaker 6 Do you really see a gap between my desire for my child to be in a certain kind of school and what that school requires? And why do parents do that? And—well, actually, yes, first of all—

37:14 Speaker 2 First of all, your desire for your child to be in a certain school, and why—I mean, that’s the school. Okay? Every place has its own rules and conditions. Now, I don’t think a girl I don’t accept is any less good than the students, or any better. It’s simply a question of fit. She’ll suffer there, she really will.

37:29 Speaker 6 No, I’m trying to get inside the parents’ heads.

37:31 Speaker 2 Yes.

37:32 Speaker 6 That I’m enrolling my daughter in a school that’s actually—

37:36 Speaker 2 Supposed to be for everyone.

37:38 Speaker 6 No. If I were to put it into categories: a school whose rules, in terms of religious practice and day-to-day expectations, are stricter and more demanding than what we have at home.

37:48 Speaker 2 Yes.

37:49 Speaker 6 But I’m not going to change my home to match. So that creates a very big gap—

37:54 Speaker 2 First of all, that gap really is very, very hard for the girls. But you know, I’m not—I have families like that; I have girls from those homes studying here. You know what, though? Their parents are wonderful people. I have to tell you, these are parents who work hand in hand with us. Maybe at home the girls are allowed to listen to certain songs, and maybe here they aren’t. That may be. But—

38:11 Speaker 6 Right, it’s not so much what the difference is, but—

38:13 Speaker 2 Exactly. But the parents—listen, I have to tell you: the girls I mentioned who really made progress were girls whose parents worked hand in hand with us. Now, that doesn’t mean their homes were exactly the same as the school. Take short socks, okay? They’re not allowed in our school; at home, they’re allowed. But the mother understood that if I sent her daughter home because she’d come in short socks three times, or for whatever reason, she would stand with us. She wouldn’t say, “What’s with this ridiculous school and its nonsense?” She was with us. This was the school she’d chosen to send her daughter to. Just as I wouldn’t send my daughter to an English-speaking preschool when we don’t speak English at home. If I send her to a particular preschool, I understand that it’s a fit for our home. And listen, every home has its own character in the end. It’s not all identical.

38:50 Speaker 6 Yes.

38:50 Speaker 2 But when something doesn’t fit, that’s the school’s framework. Let’s respect it, listen to them, understand, hear them out. And I can honestly tell you that the parents who did the work with us—first of all, they’re amazing, and they reaped the rewards. They really did. Some parents expect the school to take their daughter, dip her in something, and bring out a brand-new girl. It doesn’t work that way. Unfortunately, it doesn’t. But the parents who worked together with the school, who were honest with us and didn’t hide things, who put everything on the table and did the work—listen, they have so much nachas. I know it. And it’s just—it’s truly amazing, because it takes courage. I think it takes courage for parents to come to a principal and show where they themselves are falling short. You might think, “What do you have to do with this?” But they brought their struggles and their shortcomings. And there were parents I told—

39:35 Speaker 6 Humility again.

39:36 Speaker 2 Yes. Listen, there were parents I told, “Maybe you could get some parenting guidance about this,” and they did. Listen, it’s a wonder. The whole thing is simply a wonder.

39:46 Speaker 6 It’s amazing. As I listen to what you’re saying, I keep thinking of all kinds of concepts in Chassidus, because they connect so strongly. For example, our ability to succeed throughout life. In the wider world they call it emotional regulation, but it’s about working with our automatic reactions instead of just going along with them. And in the end, it’s interesting: the word “functioning”—ultimately, that’s what’s expected of us. I mean, there’s the inner dimension—

40:13 Speaker 2 True, there is. Okay, observing Torah and mitzvos is a matter of what you do, but Chassidus still says: bring your heart into it too. I had a discussion with my students about this just this week—

40:20 Speaker 6 The aspiration is for their sense of self-worth to be whole, and for that simply to shine outward.

40:25 Speaker 2 Right.

40:25 Speaker 6 And I’m saying, you’re building the students’ sense of self-worth.

40:28 Speaker 2 You know what? It doesn’t even have to be whole. Just not at war.

40:31 Speaker 6 You mean being whole?

40:32 Speaker 2 No, I’m saying, let’s take out the fighting, the judgment, the anger. Listen, we’re all working on ourselves; we all have setbacks. But wait a second. Let’s breathe. Let’s just take that sense of battle out of it. Let’s move away from this idea that we’re on one side and the girls are on the other—or that, in my relationship with myself, I’m on one side and part of me is on the other. Enough. I keep saying to the teachers, “Stop. We’re already in galus enough as it is.” There’s such a difficult galus here. By the way, I think I once heard—I don’t know if I’m quoting this accurately—that many tzaddikim of earlier generations, Moshe Rabbeinu and others, looked at this generation and didn’t want to be here because there would be so many challenges. And one of the things people say is that in earlier generations, the experiences of galus were shared. There was the Inquisition; everyone was caught up in it. Communism; everyone was caught up in it. The galus in Egypt; everyone. Today, each person has her own private galus, and it’s crazy. I’m going through a galus, you’re going through a galus, and it’s as though we’re not allowed to talk about it. It isn’t considered appropriate. It isn’t some galus we’re all experiencing together. Unfortunately, there’s also a great galus we’re all dealing with, but each person has her own private galus too. And I say, listen, girls are on a journey. Why just girls? We’re all on a journey. Who isn’t? I’m on a journey. I assume you are too. We all are. Now, you can’t always share it, and it isn’t always comfortable, but let’s approach it with compassion and humility. That doesn’t mean we don’t have to function. No. I have one student, for example, for whom it’s the opposite. I tell her, “That’s enough conversations with me. You’re going to get on with things. You’re going to—

41:52 Speaker 2 study.” Because otherwise she’d sit all day in the comfortable armchairs in the principal’s office. So no—come on, get on with things. That’s the point. Sometimes keeping up with our responsibilities protects us from getting into bed and spending the whole day tangled up in our problems. It’s a tool that helps us. But you know, the question is always: where have we fallen back on just going through the motions and avoided dealing with things? And where have we faced them? This galus is a difficult one, and the girls are dealing with things, and they’re wonderful. There’s no one like them. I’m crazy about them; they’re wonderful. Let’s first give them a moment to breathe. And you started talking about Chassidus, about functioning, about Torah and mitzvos. I had a discussion about that in class this week too. It was an intense discussion: some girls had brought things that weren’t appropriate for a Chabad school, and we talked about why that happens and whether it’s appropriate. Somehow we got onto the subject of what we actually do, and one of the girls brought up tznius. “Why? Why tznius? Sometimes it’s hard. Why can’t we...?” So I told them, “Listen, if I dressed modestly and felt like I was at the height of fashion—or if I davened, and then there was a test in the morning and the teacher handed it back with a hundred on it—who here wouldn’t daven? Everyone would daven. Everyone would dress modestly. We’d all keep the entire Torah and all the mitzvos if we saw the reward immediately.” I told them, “Hakadosh Boruch Hu created the world so that we don’t see the reward immediately. Otherwise, what would be the accomplishment? What would be the accomplishment in davening if the teacher handed you a hundred for doing it, and a fifty if you didn’t? There isn’t a girl in this classroom who wouldn’t daven.”

43:11 Speaker 6 That’s the whole idea of this game.

43:13 Speaker 2 But—

43:13 Speaker 6 There are rules.

43:14 Speaker 2 Exactly. So first we have to do what’s required of us, so to speak, because that’s what Hakadosh Boruch Hu said. But for us, that isn’t enough. Chassidus comes and says: “I don’t want just your davening. I want you to be connected when you daven, to understand why you daven. I don’t want just for you to dress modestly; I want you to connect with tznius.” Now, that doesn’t contradict the need for boundaries—coming back to school rules. We absolutely need boundaries. They protect us. Boundaries are reassuring. Within the boundaries, you can enjoy yourself. If we go back to the balcony we talked about at the beginning: if there were no railing on a twelfth-floor balcony, nobody would want to look at the view, because it would be dangerous. Once there’s a railing, you can. Wonderful—you can dance there, you can look at the view. A boundary is essential, but you can’t stop at the boundary. Come on, as Chassidus says, let’s understand these things. That doesn’t mean we won’t keep them even when we don’t understand. We will keep them and observe them. But let’s talk about them. Let’s bring our hearts into it, because that makes it completely different.

44:07 Speaker 6 Amazing. So the two really depend on each other. And usually the focus is on the...

44:13 Speaker 2 It is, because we’re human. It’s so easy. It’s so quick. There’s this huge school system, and I’m telling you, that distinction I made—

44:19 Speaker 6 It’s so clear. I even remember, um, when I was studying special education in college, there was—I’m trying to remember the context—some way of assessing a child. They actually called them “functioning indicators.”

44:35 Speaker 2 Right.

44:35 Speaker 6 How many times a week is he late, how many times does he— And then you get some kind of picture of whether the child is, um, I think this was about at-risk youth. Is he at risk or not?

44:44 Speaker 2 Look, so as we said, because functioning—because this student of mine, right, because—functioning can tell us something, but let’s not get stuck on functioning. I mean, this student I had in the past wouldn’t go into class and would come talk to me all day. I would say, no, she needs to function; that will protect her too. I mean, obviously—but that’s not the whole story. It’s not a checklist: great, she’s functioning, all is quiet. Rather, even if she’s functioning, let’s see what’s going on. And even if she isn’t functioning, let’s see what’s going on. Let’s look at her, because that checklist will change over the years. Her soul won’t. Her soul will keep growing and, with Hashem’s help, become healthier. But come on, let’s give her the real tools for life. Let’s give her—like I said, the material itself, every teacher here will agree with me that the girls can already learn it without us. But they can’t nurture their souls without us. They need us. And I really mean it: there isn’t a student who doesn’t need a teacher. There isn’t, there isn’t, there isn’t a student who doesn’t need that personal attention. There isn’t a student who doesn’t need to be seen. There isn’t. It’s just—

45:37 Speaker 6 Right. I see it from the other side. You see women, girls, grandmothers, still carrying around something a teacher said to them—

45:45 Speaker 2 Or the fact that no one saw them.

45:46 Speaker 6 Ah, yes. Why? Why did they pick on me over little things? Why didn’t they see me?

45:51 Speaker 2 So about not being seen: a teacher once told me, “Oh, I called a girl in for a talk, and I feel like maybe I went on and on.” I said to her, “You know what? That doesn’t worry me. What worries me more is that this student might finish twelfth grade and say, ‘No one saw me. No one talked to me.’ That worries me much, much more.” So you went on a little; so she might say, “Ugh, that teacher is such a nag.” I don’t mind. What worries me much, much, much more is that she’ll finish twelfth grade and say, “Who saw me?”

46:14 Speaker 6 Absolutely. Can you give teachers a thought to take with them?

46:17 Speaker 2 For teachers?

46:17 Speaker 6 Not just the teachers at your school.

46:20 Speaker 2 Who...

46:20 Speaker 6 There are teachers too—l-let’s zoom out for a second: elementary-school teachers, high-school teachers, kindergarten teachers, in every community, every—just a teacher’s perspective in general.

46:34 Speaker 2 Yes.

46:36 Speaker 6 You don’t always work at the school you dreamed of. And sometimes the school itself—every school has its shortcomings, and it’s very, very hard.

46:46 Speaker 2 Right.

46:46 Speaker 6 Listen, I was in the education system in Israel for hardly any time. We got married, I did my teaching internship for half a year, filling in for a teacher on maternity leave.

46:56 Speaker 2 Yes.

46:56 Speaker 6 I was a tenth-grade homeroom teacher in Kiryat Malachi.

46:59 Speaker 2 Of course it was hard. Do you understand why I never finished my degree? Because I did an internship too, and realized I was going to be a teacher—Hashem help me!

47:05 Speaker 6 Actually, I really loved it, and I think that if I’d stayed in Israel, I’d still be teaching somewhere today. But it’s challenging. Challenging, challenging, challenging. I think that because I knew it was temporary, I found the strength more easily. I really connected with the students. What was hardest for me there? Wow, good question. I was very young, and I think I felt that some of their stories were beyond me. There was one girl with a very serious issue in her background, and I didn’t know how to begin to take it in or handle it. And there were a few things with parents too—one mother called and yelled at me about something that wasn’t even... Wow, it’s a long story.

47:46 Speaker 2 You know, as you’re answering, I’m thinking—

47:48 Speaker 6 And I was thinking, how do teachers survive? But at the same time, I put those things aside and said, come on, enjoy it. Who knows when you’ll get to do this again? And just last year I met someone who’s married now. She said to me, “Chani, you were my teacher in tenth grade. It was so much fun! I remember you so well, and...” And you think, wow, how does she remember? I was her teacher for four months. And it feels so good that you can—because the very next day I went to a high school and said, “I want to teach here.” But okay, I’m carrying out my shlichus in a different way.

48:19 Speaker 2 Right.

48:20 Speaker 6 I do meet high-school girls, by the way, but not regularly—

48:24 Speaker 2 At talks.

48:25 Speaker 6 Just briefly, here and there. Sometimes I say, wow, maybe I’ll stay? Maybe you’d like to continue?

48:29 Speaker 2 Listen, it’s the most wonderful age.

48:32 Speaker 6 It is. There’s no work more amazing than that.

48:34 Speaker 2 Right.

48:34 Speaker 6 I really think so. So I want every teacher—

48:38 Speaker 2 So I’ll say a few things—

48:39 Speaker 6 Speak from that experience.

48:40 Speaker 2 As you were speaking.

48:41 Speaker 6 A young teacher. A teacher.

48:43 Speaker 2 As you were speaking, a few things came to mind. You started to say, “What about kindergarten teachers?” Okay, you’re talking about high school. High school. You said they’re at an age where the kids can already babysit for you.

48:49 Speaker 6 Look, it really is very specific, because—

48:51 Speaker 2 Exactly.

48:52 Speaker 6 High school has its own challenges.

48:53 Speaker 2 Right, but that’s just it: the basic principle applies to everyone. A child in kindergarten also needs to be treated with respect. A girl too. By the way, I ran an elementary school for a while, and I brought this approach there too.

49:03 Speaker 6 What haven’t you done?

49:05 Speaker 2 It was a short time, half a year, but I brought this approach there too. What do I mean by “approach”? I never sat down one day and said, “Here’s my method.” It was simply something that burned inside me. At first the teachers said, “That’s wonderful for high school,” but I insisted it could work in elementary school, and wonders happened there. Because in the end, it’s the same story everywhere: good human beings whom galus sometimes causes to behave badly. It doesn’t matter whether you’re five, fifteen, fifty or two hundred. So this isn’t only for teachers. You asked for a tip for teachers. So, one second—first, for teachers.

49:36 Speaker 6 Just a simple tip.

49:36 Speaker 2 Okay. So first, for teachers, including kindergarten teachers: remember that whatever the age, there’s a living soul behind it all.

49:42 Speaker 6 Maybe not a tip—maybe encouragement.

49:43 Speaker 2 Then I really want to offer encouragement. First of all, to every person on earth. If you have any kind of relationship with your neighbors, with whoever—there are human beings there. There are people. Just stop for a moment and look beyond their actions. I know it’s hard in everyday life, but let’s be better people for a moment, and let’s remember that galus is what’s bad, not the people. Now, you said it’s hard, the system is challenging, and sometimes the school isn’t like that. And that’s true: it’s very, very hard if the principal perhaps doesn’t take this approach, or if the experience is... Listen, I also sometimes have challenging parents and phone calls that make me tense up beforehand. Parents too—at first they were the hardest part for me. I could manage with the teachers and the girls, but then a father would write, “I need to talk to you,” and I’d think, oh my goodness, Hashem, what did I do to him? And then I discovered that they too were good people. I discovered that they’re human beings, that they too have fears and find it hard to deal with their daughter, and they only want... So sometimes they come at me aggressively because that’s the way they’ve learned to deal with the system: the teacher must be in the wrong. And then we talk, and suddenly we discover... Listen, I once had a couple come in to meet with me. I was completely drained afterward. I’d davened beforehand; I hadn’t slept all night, praying that we would be kind and get it right. After that conversation I said, “Wow, what good people. Everyone just wants to do good.” True, maybe they didn’t speak to me very nicely. True, and you can see for yourself: it really is very, very hard. I think that if you’re a teacher, just find another teacher on your staff who thinks this way. Encourage each other; be there for each

51:02 Speaker 2 other. Remind each other that it’s only galus. And if that teacher—for example, one teacher told me, “Oh, I’m afraid of this mother and that mother.” So yes, my job is to be there with her and tell her, “Remember that this is a person with shortcomings, that all of us are people with shortcomings.” Just remember that there are human beings behind it all. Now, it isn’t pleasant. It isn’t pleasant when people yell at us. I don’t like it either when people come to me with complaints and shouting. I have to take a deep breath, but... I’ve found that this approach simply works. The response I get shows me again and again how well it works. And I’ll say it again: that’s true for us as teachers and as human beings. Um, I don’t know—stop and see the people.

51:40 Speaker 6 I think there’s also what you said earlier. It might sound like a cliché by now, but the idea of a sense of shlichus.

51:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

51:46 Speaker 6 To remember that I... I think a lot of times a teacher has this thought running through her mind: “That’s it, next year I’m changing careers.”

51:54 Speaker 2 Yes. No, that’s what I wanted to say earlier, when you said four months and the girls remember. At the beginning, when things were terribly hard for me, there was this young teacher I asked, “Tell me, what’s going to happen?” And she said, “It’s a certainty that outreach does not return empty-handed.” I have to tell you, that sentence stays with me on the hard days. I say to myself: No, outreach does not return empty-handed. Again and again and again. And yes, you matter. I also see teachers who sometimes make themselves so small, as though they think the girls can manage without them. That isn’t true. I want to tell every teacher listening to me: You matter more than you can imagine. There isn’t a student who doesn’t need you. You have no idea how much the girls—

52:29 Speaker 6 There’s nothing like the influence of a teacher who’s there for them—

52:30 Speaker 2 Wow, it’s incredible. Don’t feel that way, even if you teach math and only half the class—

52:33 Speaker 6 And sometimes they spend more time with the teacher than with their mother.

52:36 Speaker 2 Right? And more than that: I remember once having a discussion with the teachers. Say there’s an event that day—maybe the math teachers don’t need to come. I told them, “Listen, friends, this matters more to me than math.” On the day of an event, you can have conversations with the girls. You can—during the break, in between things. And I’m telling you, the fact that we divided the girls among the teachers—what I started to say was that I, too, would have loved to speak with every girl myself. But I realized I couldn’t reach them all. In larger schools, we simply divided them up. And yes, it doesn’t matter if you teach gym or if you teach—by the way, the girls have some of their best conversations with our gym teacher. It doesn’t matter if you teach math, science, chemistry—subjects where, on the face of it, you might ask, “What’s the connection?” That’s not how it works. She, too, has a student assigned to her; she, too, compliments a student. Yes, the girls need you. Whatever your role is when you walk into a school, even if you’re the secretary—it doesn’t matter. Wow, how much Geulah you can bring. You really can. And do you know what Geulah means nowadays? It’s not just—please G-d, it means the coming of Moshiach. But the Rebbe speaks all the time about personal Geulah and the Geulah of everyone. I often asked myself: What is this personal Geulah? Am I supposed to build myself a Beis Hamikdash? That is the Beis Hamikdash: “I will dwell within them”—within each person’s heart. You can help someone bring Geulah into her own life, so she can feel at peace with herself, judge herself less harshly, breathe a little easier, and then do the work she needs to do. When a person

53:47 Speaker 2 is constantly criticizing herself, she can’t make progress anywhere. It’s just... And you know what? We talked about how, if you have a large school, you can divide it into smaller groups. People often said to me, “Oh, you have a small school, right?” But even with fifty girls, I can’t reach every one of them anymore. It’s hard. So the idea is to pass that responsibility on, for each teacher to take some girls. And even if you have a small school with two students in a class, each one matters enormously. Each one is the next leader. We know the story about Moshe Rabbeinu, yes, but I mean this more generally: Treat each girl as though there’s no one else in the world like her. There’s no one else like Dina. There isn’t, there isn’t. When I sit with a student and she’s managed to get 100 in math—yes, in the end it’s [unclear], and she received an award certificate, and we bought chocolate. We made a whole celebration at school out of her getting 100 in math, because it had been challenging for her. There is no one else in the world like her. She is one of a kind, and I keep coming back to this: reaching each girl, because that’s the Rebbe’s approach. The Rebbe saw us as leaders. The Chabad Shluchos Convention is coming up: six thousand shluchos—what a group! But no. It’s one, and another one, and another one, and another one. And every girl in the school is one person. Think about it: she is one person, with the home she comes from and the home she will, please G-d, go on to build. No one is more special than she is. At these meetings, I also say we should try to be creative and think about what’s right for that one girl. Sometimes I sit with a student and tell her, “Listen, if I were the principal of a school just for you, I might

55:09 Speaker 2 set a different boundary. But you’re part of a school, and we have to make things work for everyone.” And still, within that, we have to think about what’s right for her, what will speak to her, what kind of talk. Sometimes I bring in a speaker because I know the talk will touch one particular girl. Everyone else enjoys it, but I know I brought that talk for her, because she is unique and special. There is no one else like her in the world. There isn’t, there isn’t, there isn’t. And I didn’t invent that. Hakadosh Boruch Hu came up with this whole idea. Again, if we go back to the cliché about shlichus and—these things all sound like clichés, but when you put them into practice—

55:37 Speaker 6 Clichés are meant to be lived.

55:38 Speaker 2 No.

55:38 Speaker 6 They’re clichés when they’re just hanging in the air.

55:40 Speaker 2 No, but what I’m saying is, do you know how wonderful it is to live them? And, forgive me for saying this, but this is what Hakadosh Boruch Hu wants. This is what He asks of us. Hakadosh Boruch Hu wants us to live this personal Geulah, to see how special each girl is.

55:49 Speaker 6 Hakadosh Boruch Hu guides us, too. He puts you in a particular place, with particular people to work with, and says to you, “Enough. Stop looking elsewhere.”

55:56 Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly.

55:57 Speaker 6 “Look. You have incredible people right here to work with.”

56:00 Speaker 2 Wow, wow, wow.

56:01 Speaker 6 Just put all your energy into it. It’s—

56:02 Speaker 2 So true, so true. And they need you. It’s not just that there are incredible people here. They need you. I know I’m repeating myself, but I really mean it. And if you ask me to give teachers strength, this is it: Get up and stand tall. My daughter once said to me, “Mom, you’re a principal without heels.” I actually like wearing heels, but the point is not to stand above the girls. Be genuinely humble with them. Be honest, and remember that you have something to give them. I’m telling you, when I talk with the girls and share things from my own world, I’m not afraid to do that. A connection forms there—a real connection of hearts, of two G-dly souls, as you said. There’s nothing greater than that. Geulah. Oh, Devorah, shall we end with that? Let’s end. Thank you. As we said, Hakadosh Boruch Hu leads us from place to place, and He led you here. I’m sure that for every person who hears this, it’s exactly what she needed to hear today, and that we’ve gained strength from it. Thank you. We still need to fill in a few more things about this, but that’s all right; we’ll come to you. How did you get here? How did you get there? How—no, how did I get here? It’s Hakadosh Boruch Hu’s shlichus. I thought I was finishing my degree. I thought I was an event producer. You know, I really enjoyed it. So I’ll add one more thing here, because we also needed to talk a lot about shlichus. So many girls go around asking, “What will I do when I grow up? What’s my shlichus?” Not even “What should I do right now?” Yes. Someone might be eighteen, twenty, twenty-four. She might also be thirty, forty, fifty, sixty. I didn’t find the

57:28 Speaker 2 “My shlichus. I haven’t found my shlichus. Where is it?” And I always say: realizing that shlichus isn’t some destination waiting for you somewhere, while you have to keep looking and looking and looking until it comes to you—wow. Shlichus is right now. Every moment is part of the journey. Even if what you’re doing doesn’t suit you, you learned something there. It helped you understand yourself more precisely; you moved forward through it. I don’t have time to go into it, but I’m telling you, I see how things connect. I’ve just made some connections with a school I spoke to five years ago about something completely different. So I say: it’s not only that this is your shlichus right now. Do it as well as you possibly can. Yes. Treat it as though you’re a queen, as though you’re the prime minister, as though you’re the leader—as though nothing could be more important. It doesn’t matter if you’re a cashier at a grocery store, really, or, or, I don’t know, organizing closets. I’m choosing an example where, on the face of it, you’re not working with people. Do it like a million dollars. You have no idea how important it is, and you have no idea where it will lead you next. And as you say, this is your shlichus now. Do it as though— Yes. When I opened the school and we had twelve girls, to me there were eight trillion girls. Each girl there was worth a million girls. We were going to do it as well and as powerfully and as—on as boundless a scale as possible. Absolutely. Thank you. Devorah Ziegman—with your title. Wait, let’s close with that. Principal of the school. What’s it called? Derech Chaya in Beit Shemesh. Derech Chaya in Beit Shemesh. Thank you so, so, so much. Thank you, Chani, for the opportunity.