Kashering and Cleaning Utensils for Pesach - Rabbi Shraga Noson Dahan shlita

00:02 Speaker 1 You’re listening to the “Lema’an Yishme’u” podcast from Machon Halacha Chabad.

00:09 Speaker 2 Hello and welcome. Today, with Hashem’s help, we’re going to talk about a few things. But we’ll start with the subject of kashering. Maybe we started it a little last time; I don’t remember. Let’s start with kashering.

00:26 Speaker 3 Didn’t we say we’d discuss selling chametz?

00:28 Speaker 2 We spoke about selling chametz, and maybe we’ll talk about it today too. We’re all cleaning our homes for Pesach. We have utensils we want to use during Pesach, and this isn’t the first time we’ve taken a utensil used for one thing and changed it over to another. So first of all, what is this hocus-pocus? You take a utensil, put it in some bubbling water, and suddenly everything is fine. What’s the idea behind that?

00:55 Speaker 3 Also, if you have, say, a dairy or meat utensil, sometimes you can change it over.

00:59 Speaker 2 Right. You’re saying that if you have a dairy or meat utensil, you can change it from dairy to meat. So we’ll talk a bit about that idea, and we’ll see the difference between changing a utensil from dairy to meat and taking a utensil from chametz to Pesach. They’re similar, but they’re not the same, and we’ll see how. Once that’s clear, kashering at home will be easier too. We’ll understand the stringencies among Sephardim and Ashkenazim, why they exist, where we need to be stringent and where we don’t have to be. And it all begins with... it all begins with the war against Midian. There was a war. The Jewish people took spoils, and when they returned, they didn’t know what to do with them. There were utensils used for idol worship and utensils used for non-kosher food. So how do you kasher them? Can we use any utensil? So...

01:54 Speaker 3 You stripped the meat.

01:56 Speaker 2 They wanted to know how to kasher these utensils brought back from the war. The Torah says it very simply: “What was used with fire, pass through fire; what was used with water, through water.” We kasher each thing by the same means through which it absorbed the forbidden substance. So the rule is simple. For example, if you used a cup for something non-kosher, but cold, how would you kasher it?

02:27 Speaker 3 With something cold.

02:27 Speaker 2 With something cold: you wash it, and that’s it.

02:29 Speaker 3 Is water non-kosher?

02:31 Speaker 2 No, I didn’t say water. I said something non-kosher. So what do you do? You rinse it with water, and that’s it. It was only soaked in water. If you used a utensil for something—

02:43 Speaker 3 Hot.

02:43 Speaker 2 Boiling hot, in hot water—boiling water in a pot—something liquid but boiling, you put it into boiling water in a pot. The water bubbles, and the utensil releases the absorbed taste, the non-kosher taste absorbed in it. But won’t it also absorb it again? No, because it’s busy releasing it, so presumably it won’t absorb that bad taste back right then. And that taste is also nullified in all that water, so it won’t be noticeable. If you used a utensil directly over fire, for something dry—for example, you put a piece of meat with no liquid at all into a pot; that’s called pot-roasting. You roasted it in a frying pan, or...

03:30 Speaker 3 Pot-roas—

03:30 Speaker 2 Pot-roasting. What’s pot-roasting?

03:32 Speaker 3 From the searing.

03:32 Speaker 2 Roasting something that you put in a pot. Or, for example, if you put it on a grill, that’s fire; there’s no liquid there. How do you kasher it?

03:41 Speaker 3 With fire.

03:41 Speaker 2 With fire, through libun. Libun means very, very intense heat.

03:45 Speaker 3 Yes, gas.

03:45 Speaker 2 Until the utensil turns red and sparks come out of it. That’s a sign it’s been heated properly. That’s what the Torah says. So now we know how to kasher utensils that held non-kosher food or were used for idol worship. Then we find a very interesting Mishnah about consecrated offerings. When the Beis Hamikdash stood, sacrifices were offered, and it was forbidden to leave any of them until morning. It says, “And what remains of it until morning—”

04:21 Speaker 3 “Shall be burned in fire.”

04:22 Speaker 2 “Shall be burned in fire.” It must not be left over. What remains is called—anyone who learned Tractate Zevachim—

04:26 Speaker 3 Nosar.

04:26 Speaker 2 In Zevachim, it’s called nosar.

04:27 Speaker 3 Nosar.

04:28 Speaker 2 And nosar is forbidden. But... all right. If nosar is forbidden, and the next day you want to use those utensils again—for example, a grill, or a skewer, the things they used to hold the meat and roast it—

04:45 Speaker 3 Then, seemingly, they’re non-kosher.

04:46 Speaker 2 Right, seemingly they’re non-kosher. Why? Because they have remnants from yesterday in them, and what is the status of yesterday’s remnants?

04:54 Speaker 3 Forbidden.

04:54 Speaker 2 Non-kosher. So what do the Mishnah and Gemara say? How do you kasher something like that? All the sacred utensils are kashered by hagalah. Why hagalah? Why hagalah? Hagalah means putting them into bubbling water. Why hagalah? Didn’t we say that what was used with fire must be passed through fire? A grill and a skewer are used with fire, aren’t they?

05:20 Speaker 3 Kasher them with fire.

05:20 Speaker 2 So our Sages say: But here, when the nosar was hot, what was it at that point—permitted or forbidden?

05:32 Speaker 3 Permitted.

05:32 Speaker 2 It was permitted. So when it was absorbed—

05:36 Speaker 3 It was permitted.

05:36 Speaker 2 What was absorbed was permitted. That’s what the Gemara says in Tractate Avodah Zarah, page 76: What did it absorb? Something permitted. It absorbed something permitted, not something forbidden. And therefore, since it absorbed something permitted—

05:48 Speaker 3 So what about it?

05:49 Speaker 2 So here, hagalah is enough. True, it’s forbidden now, but what is absorbed in it? Taste. Taste is a small amount; it’s something nullified. So hagalah is enough for that.

05:59 Speaker 3 Well?

05:59 Speaker 2 When we said libun is required, that’s when it absorbed something forbidden—when it was forbidden at the time it was absorbed. Why is this ruling so important? Let me ask you: If I’m kashering something from meat to dairy, I have a utensil I use for meat, and now I want to use it for dairy. So I have a question.

06:22 Speaker 3 Oh.

06:23 Speaker 2 According to the basic law. According to the basic law.

06:29 Speaker 3 People.

06:31 Speaker 2 Do I need to... Let me repeat the question. If I have something meaty and suddenly want it to become dairy, according to the basic law, do I need to do hagalah or libun? Say it’s a grill. I have a meat grill, and now I want to put halloumi cheese on it. That’s dairy, right? According to the rule I told you from—

07:01 Speaker 3 Libun.

07:02 Speaker 2 The Gemara in Tractate Avodah Zarah and the Mishnah in Zevachim, do I need hagalah or libun?

07:08 Speaker 3 Libun.

07:08 Speaker 4 According to... Libun—you’re saying hagalah isn’t enough; it needs libun.

07:11 Speaker 2 According to—

07:12 Speaker 3 How did you use it? How did you use it?

07:14 Speaker 2 According to the Gemara, according to Menachos, according to the Gem—he’s right.

07:18 Speaker 3 What, what, what?

07:18 Speaker 2 Hagalah is enough.

07:19 Speaker 3 Correct.

07:20 Speaker 2 Why hagalah?

07:20 Speaker 3 But—

07:21 Speaker 2 Why hagalah? Again, why? Because what did it absorb?

07:24 Speaker 3 It absorbed the—

07:25 Speaker 2 It absorbed something permitted. It absorbed permitted meat; it didn’t absorb meat and milk. It only absorbed meat.

07:30 Speaker 3 But there’s a prohibition of meat and milk.

07:32 Speaker 2 No, not yet. There’s no prohibition yet. I haven’t even heard the question.

07:34 Speaker 3 I want to use a grill.

07:35 Speaker 2 I have a kosher grill that I use only for meat, and now I want to make it a dairy grill.

07:42 Speaker 3 Well?

07:42 Speaker 2 Do I need hagalah or libun? According to the rule we learned in Menachos—

07:49 Speaker 3 Seemingly—

07:49 Speaker 2 I only need to do hagalah. And that’s how the Shulchan Aruch rules: to kasher from one permitted use to another, hagalah alone is enough, even if it was used over fire. Because what’s absorbed in it? Only—

08:02 Speaker 3 Something permitted.

08:03 Speaker 2 Something permitted. And now I want to... So it’s a small amount. For that small amount absorbed in it, I don’t need libun; hagalah is enough. Ashkenazim are stringent about this. They say: True, but to avoid confusion, we’ll always do libun. But according to the basic law, the Shulchan Aruch says hagalah is enough. Now let me ask you a question about Pesach... Sorry, before Pesach. So when would I do hagalah, and when would I do libun? Only if there was meat and milk: I made a mistake and put dairy on the grill too. What have I done to my grill?

08:37 Speaker 3 It actually absorbed something forbidden.

08:38 Speaker 2 So it absorbed something forbidden. If it absorbed something forbidden, do hagalah for it—because when the Torah says, “What was used with fire, pass through fire,” it’s talking about when it absorbed something forbidden. Now let me ask you: What’s the ruling if it absorbed chametz and I want to kasher it for Pesach? Do I need libun or hagalah?

09:01 Speaker 3 Hagalah.

09:03 Speaker 2 Why?

09:03 Speaker 3 It’s permitted.

09:04 Speaker 2 Because now he says I need to do hagalah. Why? Because right now, what is it?

09:10 Speaker 3 Permitted.

09:10 Speaker 2 What is chametz right now, before Pesach?

09:12 Speaker 3 Permitted.

09:12 Speaker 2 Permitted. So that makes a big practical difference. According to all opinions, if I kasher a grill on Pesach—a grill that was used for something forbidden or that absorbed it earlier—since a forbidden taste is absorbed in it, I’ll do libun. Let’s say that if it absorbed it earlier, perhaps it’s like nosar, but we’ll discuss that. But if I take a utensil now, when it isn’t Pesach, a utensil that has absorbed chametz, and I want to make it kosher for Pesach now, according to the basic law I do hagalah. That’s the Shulchan Aruch. It’s enough for me to do—

09:55 Speaker 3 Hagalah.

09:55 Speaker 2 Hagalah—immersing it in boiling water. But the truth is, there’s a dispute here between the Rambam and the Ramban. Most halachic authorities would say that hagalah is enough. But the Ramban and several others who agree with him would say no, because what did it absorb? Chametz. True, it was permitted at the time, but why are you kashering it? For Pesach. And for Pesach, chametz—

10:22 Speaker 3 Is forbidden.

10:22 Speaker 2 Is considered forbidden. So, in relation to Pesach, it’s considered forbidden.

10:27 Speaker 3 Completely.

10:27 Speaker 2 So you have to kasher it as something that absorbed a forbidden substance. But in fact, even the Mechaber is stringent about this in the first instance and says that before Pesach—

10:34 Speaker 3 If you take—

10:34 Speaker 2 In the first instance, we’ll do hagalah for it.

10:37 Speaker 3 If you take a dairy grill now, with nothing forbidden in it, and want to convert it, to kasher it for Pesach—a dairy grill, kasher it for Pesach.

10:45 Speaker 2 No problem.

10:46 Speaker 3 Dairy.

10:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

10:46 Speaker 3 Right? So according to this, hagalah is enough for it.

10:49 Speaker 2 Right, if you don’t want to—right, right, certainly. If you take a dairy grill or a dairy toaster—

10:55 Speaker 3 Yes.

10:55 Speaker 2 And there was no bread in it, only cheese.

10:58 Speaker 3 Yes.

10:58 Speaker 2 And while you’re at it, you say, “It’s Pesach; I want to prepare it already.” According to the Mechaber, according to the Sephardim—

11:02 Speaker 3 Hagalah.

11:03 Speaker 2 Hagalah is enough. But today, in the first instance, it’s always best not to get into complications. Still, it certainly doesn’t need full libun—heating it until sparks come off it. According to the Sephardim, if it only had yellow cheese on it and you want to make it meat, that makes a very big practical halachic difference. This is a very important principle in the laws of kashering utensils. A very important principle. So we’ll see what practical differences it makes. For example, if you didn’t kasher it that way and only did hagalah, that’s also all right, because strictly speaking you can rely on that opinion. Okay, that’s one point. So you’ve understood the basic principle of kashering: always kasher a utensil in the way it was used. And on Pesach, unlike the rest of the year, we’re much more particular. If you used it over fire, you kasher it with fire; that way you avoid complications. Now I have a question: how do I know which use to go by? I used a fork to prepare something on the grill, right? But throughout the year, I used this fork that way once: it was right over the fire. I took a fork and held it over the fire, like a skewer. How do I kasher a fork like that?

12:20 Speaker 3 Libun.

12:21 Speaker 2 Only with libun. But most of the year I use it at home. I don’t use it for food over the fire; I use it for food at the table.

12:32 Speaker 3 To turn over a pareve omelet.

12:33 Speaker 2 No, I use it at the table to eat. I have a pan for turning over an omelet. So most of the year I use it only at the table. At the table, what level of heat is the food at?

12:44 Speaker 3 Not hot.

12:45 Speaker 2 It’s at the heat level of a kli sheini, a second vessel. It’s not directly from the fire: it goes from the fire to the pot, and from the pot to the plate. And I know the rule is, “As it absorbs, so it releases.” That is, if I use cutlery only on the plate at the table, not directly over the fire, the heat is at a lower level. So seemingly, kashering it would require only pouring boiling water over it. I could put the cutlery in the sink and pour boiling water from a kettle over it. That’s the Sephardic view, and then the utensils are kosher for Pesach. They don’t need hagalah; pouring boiling water over them is enough.

13:27 Speaker 3 Excuse me, does that apply between meat and dairy too? Say I accidentally put a dairy fork into a meat pot at a low temperature?

13:34 Speaker 2 Yes. According to the Sephardim—that’s an excellent question—if I accidentally got mixed up and ate cholent with a dairy fork, and I’m Sephardic—

13:46 Speaker 3 But cold cholent.

13:47 Speaker 2 Hot cholent, and I’m Sephardic. I take the cutlery and pour boiling water from the kettle over it. Nothing more is needed. Ashkenazim are somewhat more stringent about this because of the view of the Shulchan Aruch, so they would say, no, put it directly into boiling water in a pot. But unlike all the other forms of kashering, here, because it’s a kli sheini, the fire doesn’t have to be lit under the pot at that moment. It’s enough for the water in the pot to be boiling even if the fire has been turned off.

14:14 Speaker 3 In the water.

14:14 Speaker 2 Why? Because it’s a kli sheini.

14:16 Speaker 3 Yes.

14:17 Speaker 2 So I know that a kli sheini has its own rules. Thank you very much. Thank you for the mitzvos. Blessed are You, Hashem our G-d, King of the universe, by Whose word everything came into being.

14:22 Speaker 3 Amen.

14:27 Speaker 2 I know that a kli sheini is at a lower heat level and is easier to kasher. For Ashkenazim, as I said, you need a pot, but the fire doesn’t have to be lit under it. The water needs to be bubbling, or at least boiling hot. But now let me ask you: that’s if it’s a kli sheini. What if, on a few days during the year when we had a barbecue in the yard, I used it for the meat? Is it considered a kli sheini or a kli rishon, a first vessel?

14:53 Speaker 3 A first vessel. Why?

14:55 Speaker 2 The Mechaber gives a rule: we follow the majority of its—

14:59 Speaker 3 Uses.

15:00 Speaker 2 Uses—the usual use. What does “the majority of its uses” mean? For most of the year it’s used as a kli sheini, so I can treat it as a kli sheini. Why? Pay attention, because people repeat this idea of “the majority of its uses” a lot. It works like this. I’m explaining the Mechaber’s view: since you used it on the grill once but then used it many more times away from the grill, the absorbed taste has already weakened. So now it’s enough just to pour boiling water over it, because most of the time you used it, it was—

15:42 Speaker 3 In other words, the order matters here.

15:43 Speaker 2 And that’s why the order matters. You can’t say, “I used it on the grill just now, but the majority of its uses…” No. You just used it on the grill, so now you have to kasher it with libun. If, after using it on the grill, I used it many times with boiling water or as a kli sheini, then I can invoke “the majority of its uses.” But if its last use was at a more stringent heat level than the others, I kasher it according to that level. In other words, this isn’t a rule you can use for everything. “The majority of its uses”—I hear that more and more from various people, “the majority of its uses.” But you just barbecued with it; you put it into the meat over the fire. My friend, even if you did that once, you need to kasher what was absorbed over fire. To get it out, you have to use fire. Now, it’s true that after the fact, since we’re talking about something that was permitted, if I want to change it from meat to dairy, it absorbed something permitted, so hagalah is enough. But say it’s a dairy utensil that I used on the grill. I would have to kasher it with libun even according to the Sephardim—unless I’ve since used it for most of the year, and then I don’t know what to do. That’s why the order matters. And regarding Pesach—because that’s what we’re discussing now—we have this question of the majority of its uses. We also said that in the first instance, on Pesach, we take into account the Ramban’s view that it absorbed something forbidden. Now, look: meat, generally speaking, isn’t chametz. The rule is this: if I know the meat had chametz, I have to kasher the utensil. If I don’t know, I should try to kasher it because of the doubt, but if I didn’t, I haven’t committed a prohibition by using it. But say I used it for meat patties, and some patties actually have—

17:27 Speaker 2 Pieces of bread in them, so that’s outright chametz.

17:29 Speaker 5 Or flour.

17:30 Speaker 2 Yes. All right, let’s say that. Or say I used it on the grill with actual chametz to arrange my pita. That was [unclear]; I put it aside, and now I want to kasher the utensil for Pesach. I remember the rule about the majority of its uses: most of the year I use it for soup. No, no. You used it on the grill once, and now you have to give it libun.

17:56 Speaker 5 Soup can have croutons too, so there’s plenty of chametz in that.

17:59 Speaker 2 Yes, but you’ll have to give it libun. So you see, sometimes we study these laws from books, but we need to notice the nuances: here it absorbs, here it doesn’t absorb; here it releases, here it doesn’t release.

18:10 Speaker 5 The nuance that guides me, at least, on Pesach—

18:14 Speaker 2 It tastes good to him.

18:14 Speaker 5 Even—no, that’s not what I mean. Actually, Pesach food tastes the best, because everything is fresh.

18:19 Speaker 2 Right.

18:19 Speaker 5 The spices, everything, uh…

18:22 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

18:22 Speaker 5 The truth is that on Pesach, even the smallest amount matters.

18:24 Speaker 2 Even the smallest amount.

18:24 Speaker 5 So that means there’s no doubt.

18:27 Speaker 2 Exactly. There is a doubt; there isn’t a doubt. Right, but let’s just touch on—

18:31 Speaker 5 He was the pilot when he was little.

18:32 Speaker 2 But just—

18:33 Speaker 5 He’s the pilot. I only gave a piece.

18:35 Speaker 2 Just, just, just—let’s touch on the point I wanted to address. Now, that’s its primary use. Why wouldn’t Ashkenazim follow its primary use? Because they would say that, at the end of the day, it has an absorbed taste, and an absorbed taste isn’t released by the way the utensil is used most often; it is released only by that same type of use. That’s why Ashkenazim are stringent and don’t go by its primary use. They say that just as it absorbs, so it releases, and if you used it at the level of... Now, a question: Does hagalah remove the need for libun? There’s a dispute about that, but in practice—in practice, sorry, not hagalah; I meant libun. You’re right, I meant libun. Does libun remove the need for hagalah? Ideally, you should do whatever is required, but libun does remove the need for hagalah. Why? Because it both heats the utensil and burns away the absorbed taste or whatever is unclean.

19:24 Speaker 5 What, for example?

19:25 Speaker 2 That there’s—

19:25 Speaker 5 What do people do libun to, for example? The gas stove grates—I’m sure they get libun. I’m sure.

19:30 Speaker 2 No, it’s not so clear-cut, but I’ll tell you why.

19:32 Speaker 5 Because it’s—

19:33 Speaker 2 You asked an excellent question. What is the status of gas stove grates? Gas stove grates present a problem. Now I want to talk about the next stage. So we’ve discussed how to kasher things. We’ve discussed primary use and the differences between Ashkenazim and Sephardim. We’ve also discussed Pesach and the rule that just as something absorbs, so it releases. Now there’s another principle in halachah: If you’re concerned that kashering a particular utensil thoroughly will make it crack or burn, then you don’t kasher it, because you’ll end up cutting corners and won’t really kasher it properly. And what happens today—

20:13 Speaker 5 Don’t use it.

20:14 Speaker 2 With enamel-coated grates, people are very afraid to give them a heavy libun. That’s how it is. According to the Ashkenazim, they need a heavy libun. Why? Because they say it absorbs: food spills out of the pot and runs onto it. It’s true that at the specific points at the corners of the grate, anything that lands there immediately burns in the flame. Nothing remains there. But anyone familiar with these grates knows that food often runs onto the legs and other parts, leaving them covered in liquid, right? And the liquid is absorbed. So how, ostensibly, do we kasher the place where that liquid was absorbed?

21:00 Speaker 6 Libun.

21:00 Speaker 2 With libun. But because it’s so hot there, often what lands on it isn’t even liquid. Sometimes pieces of food fall there; sometimes it’s soup. The liquid evaporates, leaving only the dry part of the soup—croutons. Then they’ll say, “Wait a second, this is actually dry food. I have to give it libun—a severe libun, until it gives off sparks.” I’d like to see someone handed shiny enamel stove grates and told, “Please, give these a heavy libun until they’re almost cracking and giving off sparks.” You’re concerned about damaging them. So they said not to kasher something like that. What do you do, then?

21:38 Speaker 6 Cover it.

21:38 Speaker 2 Cover it. That’s enough—cover it.

21:40 Speaker 6 We cover them in any case.

21:41 Speaker 2 Yes, not everyone. But Sephardim—

21:43 Speaker 6 Give them libun.

21:44 Speaker 2 Will say, “No problem. We go by what spills onto them most of the time”—which is liquid.

21:50 Speaker 6 On Pesach? That’s [unclear].

21:52 Speaker 2 Most of what spills onto them is liquid.

21:53 Speaker 6 We cover everything—or don’t cover it. In our homes, in general.

21:56 Speaker 2 Most, most of what spills onto them.

21:57 Speaker 6 There’s nothing we use both on Pesach and... everything.

22:01 Speaker 2 You don’t know that?

22:04 Speaker 6 But I have a question.

22:05 Speaker 2 One second, one second. I’ll come back to the questions; I just want to make this point. So what happens? According to Sephardim, we go by its primary use. Liquid, liquid, liquid—that’s the most it gets. I mean, how often do you put a pita directly on the... Maybe once or twice a year.

22:24 Speaker 6 On what? On the grate?

22:25 Speaker 2 On the grate. Not every day.

22:26 Speaker 6 Some people like doing that, I know.

22:27 Speaker 2 Those who do it every day should kasher it accordingly, but those who don’t—

22:29 Speaker 6 Its primary use.

22:30 Speaker 2 So its primary use isn’t food—maybe some liquid spilled onto it. For Sephardim, then, it’s enough to clean it well, do hagalah, and use it. But Ashkenazim don’t go by its primary use. So it needs to be kashered, but you can’t kasher it. Why? Because you’re concerned about damaging it. Here’s another thing people are concerned about damaging: a frying pan. A frying pan isn’t deep-frying; it’s frying.

22:51 Speaker 6 Frying.

22:52 Speaker 2 Frying, say, schnitzels and things like that. What does it need? That’s, that’s roasting. So—

22:58 Speaker 6 Leave it.

22:58 Speaker 2 How do you kasher it? One second. How do you kasher a frying pan if it was used dry? For dry use, it needs libun in a fire.

23:05 Speaker 6 It’s not dry.

23:06 Speaker 2 But because it’s enamel-coated, because it has an enamel or Teflon coating or something like that, people are concerned about damaging it. “No, don’t burn it; you’ll ruin it.” So because they’re concerned about it, halachah says you don’t kasher it.

23:19 Speaker 6 Don’t use it, that’s all.

23:20 Speaker 2 Right. That’s why halachah says you don’t kasher it.

23:23 Speaker 6 A frying pan costs sixty shekels at Osher Ad. We’re talking about a time when people didn’t have them.

23:25 Speaker 2 No, even today, at the kashering station—

23:28 Speaker 6 With those induction cooktops. What are you talking about? People have induction cooktops.

23:31 Speaker 2 So we’ve discussed those stovetops—how we give them libun and why. And according to Sephardim, you do hagalah and use them; there’s no problem.

23:42 Speaker 6 Maybe the rabbi there already does both libun and hagalah.

23:45 Speaker 2 Ashkenazim are stringent—both libun and hagalah. It’s only with enamel that we have a problem. Now, you should know that in places where you can’t do, uh, where you can’t do...

23:54 Speaker 6 Libun.

23:55 Speaker 2 Hagalah, you do a light libun. A light libun is about three or four seconds on each spot. And what’s the test for a light libun? If there were straw on the other side, it would burn. But where are you going to find straw? So today, for example, they often test it this way in the army: you put toilet paper on the other side. If it starts to brown and turn black, that’s a sign it has reached the level of a light libun.

24:15 Speaker 6 In the army, with the...

24:15 Speaker 2 Yes, that’s right.

24:16 Speaker 6 There’s a black gas device.

24:17 Speaker 2 Yes, but today—that was in the past. They used to bring in serious gas cylinders. Then the safety people came along and said it wasn’t allowed. Only five-liter gas cylinders, not the big ones—and today even those aren’t allowed. So today they use that little camping gas burner.

24:29 Speaker 6 Does that get it to the point of—

24:30 Speaker 2 No, no. It works for small things, section by section.

24:32 Speaker 6 Well, then what?

24:32 Speaker 2 So that’s why you need to... No, when they do it there—in short, I won’t get into it here, but there are solutions. That’s it. All right, another thing: another way to kasher. We talked about countertops. Do we need to kasher the countertop or not? So here’s the situation.

24:46 Speaker 6 Yes.

24:46 Speaker 2 Originally, the method for stone was to put a heated stone on it and kasher it. Today, these countertops are made of epoxy stone, and all the instructions say not to put very hot things on them.

25:00 Speaker 6 Right.

25:00 Speaker 2 It can crack the countertop.

25:02 Speaker 6 Right.

25:02 Speaker 2 Many people are careful not to put hot things on it, though every so often they might spill some liquid. The recommendation for Pesach is not to put hot things on the countertop, and then there’s no problem. Clean the countertop well. Even if you didn’t do hagalah—let’s say you didn’t do hagalah, didn’t pour boiling water over it, but simply cleaned it perfectly. Use a substance that makes any taste unfit for consumption; get it completely clean. If you don’t put anything hot on it, nothing is absorbed unless it comes into contact with heat. Without heat, there’s no absorption, and absorption requires heat and moisture. If there’s neither moisture nor heat, it neither absorbs nor releases. So that’s—

25:33 Speaker 6 If it’s just moist, does it absorb?

25:34 Speaker 2 A little moisture is no problem. But still, we say maybe something will happen by mistake, so what do we do? Clean it well and pour boiling water over it. If you want the water to come directly from a kli rishon, you could pour it from a boiling kettle while it’s still bubbling and plugged in, though that’s a bit difficult. Another solution is to use a heated stone. How do you do that? Just take an iron, heat it up, turn off the steam—it counts as a heated stone. Pour boiling water, then pass over it with the iron, with the steam turned off.

26:05 Speaker 6 Why don’t you...

26:06 Speaker 2 Because it... One second, one second, one second. Then you take it and pass it over the surface. That’s what the Rema writes about kashering tables and various other surfaces: it makes the water there like water in a kli rishon, and that kasheres it. But you don’t have to do that. If you don’t want to, and you aren’t concerned about the Rema’s view, pouring boiling water is enough. Still, sometimes there are cracks, or maybe I didn’t clean it properly, and so on. The solution is that some people are very particular and also cover it with aluminum, whether there’s dry contact or not. Actually, if you cover it with aluminum, you don’t also need to—

26:42 Speaker 6 Do hagalah.

26:43 Speaker 2 Do hagalah on it. I still have—

26:45 Speaker 6 Yaakov says, “Can I add one more thing?”

26:45 Speaker 2 We have a minute left—really, another two minutes—so I want to make use of them. Let’s talk about induction cooktops. For Sephardim, induction isn’t a problem, because the surface is glass, and glass neither absorbs nor releases anything. No problem. For Ashkenazim, you can’t use the glass on Pesach because, according to Ashkenazi practice, it can’t be kashered. But what’s the solution for induction? It’s simple. Since induction works through a conductive pot, we can put down a rubber mat. You can use a silicone baking mat—buy one of those, put the pot on top of it, and it will work. Everything is fine, and you can use the cooktop on Pesach if you put a clean silicone baking mat on the induction surface.

27:28 Speaker 6 So it won’t burn?

27:28 Speaker 2 Put pots on it; nothing will happen. True, if you set it to heat level fourteen and roast on it, it will burn the mat. But for cooking, it will survive even at fourteen. If you’re roasting, keep it at twelve—no higher than heat level twelve—or use slightly thicker silicone. But if you use an ordinary silicone mat, even one sold on AliExpress, you can buy a large one, put it down, and cook on it on Pesach without any concern. What do you need to watch out for? Make sure liquids don’t get underneath it and on top of it, because if the liquids connect, that could render the pot and the cooktop non-kosher. So be careful: it must be dry against dry. You put the pot on it, and that also solves the issue of cooking on an induction cooktop. For Sephardim, there’s no problem. As for stovetops, you can also put something down to raise the pot, and then it’s fine. For Sephardim, anything made of glass just needs a thorough cleaning, and there’s no problem. That’s it; that brings us to the end of the basic principles we discussed.