Seeing the Person Beyond the Student: The Power of Personal Conversations in Yeshiva | Rabbi Yoel Neprestek #015

00:00 Speaker 1 It’s so good to be back. After a short break, we’re back with episode fifteen of our interview series here on “Chabad Education.” This time, we’re talking about personal conversation and connection between a yeshiva staff member and a student. Why is it so important? How do you create that connection, that conversation? And in a yeshiva with many students and many staff members, how do you manage to make it happen? Is it realistic? We sat down today to discuss all this with Rabbi Yoel Neperstek, a mashpia at the yeshiva ketanah in Tzfas. A very illuminating, enriching, and fascinating episode. I’m Meir Vishnepsky, and you’re listening to “Chabad Education.” Rabbi Yoel Neperstek, welcome.

00:38 Speaker 2 Thank you. Yasher koach on this wonderful and important initiative.

00:41 Speaker 1 I wanted to thank you for coming and making time for this. I’ll start by saying that this is a bit of a full-circle moment for me. I was a student at the yeshiva ketanah in Tzfas, and... we had many personal conversations.

00:57 Speaker 2 I remember.

00:59 Speaker 1 Yes, many. And they were extremely, extremely important for me at that stage of my life. So doing an episode on this subject now is a bit of a full-circle moment. With Hashem’s help, I hope we’ll do it justice. So let’s start with personal conversations. I do want us to talk about that, but first, tell us a little about where you are today, your role in education, and how you got there. Let’s get to know you a little.

01:22 Speaker 2 I’ve been a mashpia at the yeshiva in Tzfas, the yeshiva ketanah, for more than fifteen years now, and it’s the main thing in my life.

01:34 Speaker 1 How did you get into it? Was it right after your wedding? Tell us a little about—

01:38 Speaker 2 Even earlier. In my first year, I went to fill in for a mashpia in what was then called Nazareth Illit, now Nof HaGalil, for two weeks. Then they asked me to work there. I was there for two years, and then I moved to Tzfas, where I’ve been ever since, with Hashem’s help.

01:54 Speaker 1 Okay, so let’s start with personal conversations. What does that mean? Why is it so important? And from there we can go a little deeper.

02:03 Speaker 2 In general, I think the point is that I’m essentially a teacher, a mashpia in the classroom. So my role with the students is to be a teacher, with all the advantages and disadvantages that come with it. As soon as I started, I felt I was missing the personal connection. I mean, there’s the young man as a student, but there’s also him as a person. He’s a person, and I want to get to know that person. I think that can give him a tremendous amount of self-confidence and help shape his sense of who he is and what he’s about, and—

02:47 Speaker 1 But is that part of your goal? Say you’re teaching a page of Gemara, or whatever subject you’re teaching, Chassidus—are you saying this is part of your goal?

03:00 Speaker 2 There’s the goal of teaching and the goal of educating. In the educational part, I think the personal connection you create has a very central place. Outside of the classroom, you form a different kind of connection. It’s something additional, but also fundamental and essential.

03:19 Speaker 1 And why is it so fundamental, essential, and important? What does it give him?

03:24 Speaker 2 I think a young man needs to feel seen, and for him to feel that way, you have to see him as a person, not as a student. As a student, I have my role and he has his. To him, that isn’t something real. Once he sees that I see him as a person, our conversations will always include him as a person: his private life, his family, what interests him, who he is. That’s really part of it. Then he feels seen. In an extreme case, it can even be a matter of saving a life. A young man might be feeling very bad, and because a rabbi saw him, that gave him the strength to keep himself alive—in very extreme cases.

04:14 Speaker 1 Are those things you’ve encountered over your years in the yeshiva?

04:18 Speaker 2 Not in the sense of physical life—

04:21 Speaker 1 Right.

04:22 Speaker 2 —of living or not living. But yes, in the sense that a person truly built himself up. A young man who felt like nothing suddenly has someone treating him as a person, as an equal, and it really lifts him up.

04:36 Speaker 1 So you’re saying that beyond sitting down and teaching some material—half a page of Gemara, or whatever it is in yeshiva—you need that time to connect, right? That time for a personal connection between you and your students, between every rabbi and his students.

04:52 Speaker 2 I think that if our role is to build up the young man, to educate him and help shape who he is, then it’s a very central part of that.

04:59 Speaker 1 Say that again.

05:00 Speaker 2 If the job is only to teach, then no, it isn’t relevant. But if the goal is to build up the person, then it may be more central than the time in the classroom.

05:11 Speaker 1 You’re saying those conversations may be more central than the time you have in class, teaching the material—if your goal is to build up the person.

05:20 Speaker 2 Yes, that’s how I feel.

05:22 Speaker 1 But how do you do it? You’re saying, “I build up a person precisely by seeing him as a person.” The boys in a yeshiva ketanah are thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. There’s a big age gap. How do you see him? Do you really enter his world? You sit with a boy that age—do you actually enter his world?

05:41 Speaker 2 Yes. Look, I do this all the time, so it doesn’t feel unusual to me. To someone who doesn’t do it, it may sound like something from up in the eucalyptus tree [?]. I’m there, so it’s easier. But yes, if you understand that this is your job, you go all the way into it. That’s part of it: entering their world.

05:58 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

05:59 Speaker 2 Sometimes it’s a little boring, but usually, when it’s genuine and you speak from the heart, he speaks from the heart too. Then it’s very interesting as well.

06:08 Speaker 1 Wow. And sometimes in those conversations, you might find out something that—well, a yeshiva has rules. It has a framework. You’re having a personal conversation with a student, and he opens up. Something good has formed there, a relationship of trust, and he shares something personal that goes against the yeshiva’s rules. How do you respond to something like that? What do you do at that point? I think a lot of people may be afraid of this: “If I enter that world, I don’t know what I’ll find there.”

06:42 Speaker 2 Yes. Well, it really does take time to get to that point. But if it happens, it means there truly is trust. Sometimes he’ll ask, “Rabbi, you won’t tell anyone?” I say, “I won’t tell,” and then he tells me. Generally, I need to keep it to myself. If it’s something personal to him, meaning it doesn’t affect others, I keep it between us and try to help him with it, to work out how to move forward. If he has a device, for example, and nobody sees it, I try to help him. If it’s something that affects others more broadly, I help him understand that we have to do something about it. I don’t go behind his back. We come to the conclusion together that the information needs to be shared.

07:29 Speaker 1 When you say you won’t go behind his back, is that connected to seeing him as a person?

07:33 Speaker 2 That too.

07:34 Speaker 1 Yes? I mean—

07:35 Speaker 2 And it’s also really important to preserve that trust. If we truly want him to open up, he needs to feel safe.

07:43 Speaker 1 I want to go back for a moment to why personal conversations are so critical, so important. What’s so special about the personal conversation? What happens there? Okay, I sit and talk with him about his family. He shares what’s going on at home and talks about his hobbies. What does that do for a fifteen- or sixteen-year-old boy, to sit and talk with his rabbi? Why does it make such a difference?

08:07 Speaker 2 I think he feels that his rabbi is someone who cares about him, who isn’t just there to do his job but sees him as an individual. As a result, he opens up too, and from there you reach much deeper places. Instead of dealing with whether he did or didn’t study today, we talk about more fundamental things.

08:29 Speaker 1 Like what? What sorts of things do you encounter there? In general terms, of course.

08:34 Speaker 2 I’ll give you an example of a young man who comes to mind. He had a very complicated family situation. When he arrived at the yeshiva, he was very, very quiet, even a little unusual, I’d say. Some people looked at him as though he was strange. Boruch Hashem, I took to him from the beginning, and we formed a connection. We started talking about life, about home, what he thought, how he saw things. Honestly, it was a kind of therapy. We really had an ongoing connection, meeting about once every two weeks, and we spoke very openly. I see him today, boruch Hashem: his family had fallen apart somewhat, but he has grown into a strong, well-adjusted person. Of course, I don’t take sole credit for that, but I think those conversations, that closeness, the open discussion, and the many perspectives we shared played a part. We talked about how to look at things, how to respond.

09:43 Speaker 1 Wow.

09:43 Speaker 2 I felt it really helped build him up.

09:46 Speaker 1 Mm, and how? What happens if there’s a student in the class—you take over the class, and there’s a student you don’t take to? I mean, students who... I don’t know, on my shlichus I meet guys where sometimes every conversation with them is really heavy. It takes a lot of energy out of you, so automatically there’s this sort of...

10:08 Speaker 2 Yes.

10:09 Speaker 1 If that’s what we’re here to do—we want to make a difference, to educate, to help a student move from one point to another—and you’re saying personal conversations are one of the main ways to do that, what happens when we find ourselves in that situation? What do you think is the right way to handle it?

10:25 Speaker 2 That’s an excellent question. I think a few things. First, certainly at the beginning, it probably will show. The conversation won’t go as well. But I would still insist on having it, because sometimes I come away feeling it was a very ordinary conversation, and a few days later I hear from the boy that it really struck a chord with him, or that he wants me to go to his [unclear][?], and things develop from there. I mean, you have to give them that opportunity, even with someone I don’t expect the conversation to flow with. There are difficult conversations that I prepare myself for, and I tell myself, “Go and do it.” Even afterward, I sometimes feel it wasn’t great. I wasn’t thrilled with how the conversation went, with the dynamic or the flow. But sometimes it does get going. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes that’s where it ends. At least he has the feeling that the rabbi cares about him, asked about him, spoke with him. That’s already worth something. It isn’t the ultimate goal. It isn’t the point I’d like to reach, but it’s good too. If it’s really someone I don’t take to, that’s the hardest thing for me. What I do, before I approach him for a conversation, is make sure I find something about him—something good. Either something I like about him or something that arouses compassion for him. Compassion awakens love. Something along those lines. There was one boy I found annoying. Every time he came to talk, I felt weighed down. And he specifically wanted to talk in the hallway or in the zal, and I felt, no, no, I don’t feel like it. At some point I heard a little of his life story, which I hadn’t known. It was somewhat complicated, and it really stirred compassion in me. That made me want to talk, and we did talk. Today we have an excellent relationship, and you really can’t

12:29 Speaker 2 sense that I once didn’t take to him. That’s been forgotten and has disappeared.

12:34 Speaker 3 You mentioned hallway conversations or conversations in the zal. Often, people are sitting in the zal, and the rabbi has his table—the maggid shiur, the mashpia. It’s a place where a student can come over if he wants to talk. Is that also a personal conversation? What’s the difference between a hallway conversation and a personal conversation? Does it depend on where it happens, on the atmosphere, or is it simply time I spend one-on-one with a student? What’s the definition—or at least how would you define a personal conversation, and what’s important to know going into one?

13:04 Speaker 2 I think it’s very different. I see hallway conversations as a way of easing into things. Invite a boy into a room for a one-on-one conversation when he isn’t comfortable with you yet, doesn’t know you—it’s not so comfortable for him.

13:18 Speaker 3 It could even be a little intimidating.

13:19 Speaker 2 Yes, exactly. You might come in full of energy and openness, while he’s thinking, “What does he want from me?” So hallway conversations help ease into it. “How are you?” For example, there was a boy whose parents, I’d heard, were seriously debating where he should study—whether he would continue in yeshiva or not. I had to address it. I didn’t know what I’d be able to accomplish, but I had to at least try. So I went over to him in the zal, because he was a bit distant, not one of the boys who felt comfortable approaching me. I went over and asked, “How are you? Who’s that grandfather of yours?” Just a little conversation on the side. Then, two days later, I invited him for a talk. He came in relaxed, because he knew the rabbi was someone he could talk to. The rabbi wasn’t only about class, tests, and the whole daily schedule.

14:09 Speaker 3 So a student can experience the rabbi exactly that way: the schedule, tests, rules, arriving on time, and so on.

14:18 Speaker 2 You studied in yeshivas more recently. I studied in yeshiva more years ago, and that was exactly how it was. Apart from one rabbi who was nice, took an interest, and wanted to listen. Otherwise, it was completely...

14:35 Speaker 3 That was the experience.

14:35 Speaker 2 A laboratory. A machine. Yes.

14:38 Speaker 3 A system.

14:39 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

14:41 Speaker 3 So then what should it be? We said hallway conversations are when you meet him in the yeshiva corridors, or, as you said, go over to him in the zal. What should a personal conversation look like, in your view? Sitting together in a room—couldn’t that be a little intimidating for a student? Sometimes just entering a room...

14:58 Speaker 2 So, first of all, at our yeshiva we have a room designated for conversations.

15:03 Speaker 3 Oh, the administration set up a space.

15:05 Speaker 2 They set up a space, and perhaps we’ll go into this more later, but they also built a system around it. It’s officially part of the job. The room has two comfortable couches with a table between them. On the one hand, the table creates a little distance, but it’s a low table, so there’s this balance of closeness and distance. Then, depending on how things are going, you might find that in a more difficult conversation the boy leans back a bit—or perhaps you do—and in an easier conversation there’s a bit of movement toward the table. You can actually see it happen. But it’s still a fairly pleasant setting. In any case, it’s a good idea to ask the boy, “Are you comfortable in the room? Would you prefer to be outside?” We’re close to a wooded area near the yeshiva, the Metzudah, so we often go there.

15:57 Speaker 3 A somewhat rough place, with benches.

15:59 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. Some feel more comfortable in an open space.

16:03 Speaker 3 Wow, that’s hard.

16:04 Speaker 2 You can—and should—ask, “What would you prefer?” It makes a difference.

16:08 Speaker 3 Mm. Now, what happens if I sit down for a personal conversation with a student and he reveals something, a very difficult story, something very complicated—whether it’s abuse or some other experience at the extreme end? Sometimes, for us as staff, how do you deal with that story? Some boys’ stories are more typical: difficulties socially or in other areas. But when it gets to that point, what can you tell staff members? I think this episode is also for parents. Parents, too, end up having these conversations with their children. But focusing on staff, what can you say to someone who encounters something at that extreme and is shaken by it himself? What do I do with this? It’s overwhelming. Who do I turn to? What do I do with what I’ve learned? Who knows?

17:01 Speaker 2 Interesting. Look, I’ve generally found that the more prepared I am to handle such challenges, so to speak—to have difficult cases brought to me—the more they come.

17:13 Speaker 3 Mm.

17:13 Speaker 2 I mean, the boys can really sense whom they can open up to, and about what. Very often boys come to me—

17:19 Speaker 3 Not necessarily from your class.

17:20 Speaker 2 Exactly. Not from my class, or boys whose mashpia is someone else. They’ve told me, “Rabbi, I felt I couldn’t talk to my mashpia about this. I want to talk about it with you.” He’s still in touch with his mashpia, he likes him, and everything is fine, but he feels that this particular subject isn’t something he can bring up with him.

17:35 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

17:36 Speaker 2 So that’s the first thing: they can sense it. If someone does come to us and we aren’t prepared, I think the first thing he needs—and what’s expected of us—is simply empathy. Listen to him, make room for what he’s saying, and don’t get too alarmed. Anyone can do that first part, whatever the issue. Then I tell him, “Look, this is something I need to consult someone about. Would you mind if I did that without using names?” The answer is always yes.

18:05 Speaker 3 Really.

18:06 Speaker 2 Yes, and then we take it from there.

18:08 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

18:08 Speaker 2 If necessary, we can then refer him for treatment or get guidance.

18:12 Speaker 3 And at the yeshiva, is there a team that provides guidance on these things when you need it?

18:16 Speaker 2 Yes. Baruch Hashem, the therapeutic support system is well developed, and a lot has been invested in it. We have Michael Bennett, who’s an adviser—almost a senior adviser on these matters. We have an adviser, Rabbi Moishy Meiri, who helps a great deal.

18:31 Speaker 3 Oh, so there’s actually a network of therapists supporting the yeshiva with all...

18:35 Speaker 2 Up to and including a psychiatrist. I think that’s something new; it wasn’t there yet when you were.

18:40 Speaker 3 Yes, I don’t think so.

18:42 Speaker 2 Not that I would necessarily have known about it. But a psychiatrist comes in, mainly for attention and concentration issues, and other things.

18:51 Speaker 3 Wow.

18:51 Speaker 2 If there are problems, we know there’s someone we can refer them to. He’s at the yeshiva once a month, as part of the system.

18:57 Speaker 3 That’s crazy. And how can I be someone who invites that? You said the students can really sense it. A student will sense who he can open up to, about what, and how deeply. If I have something, a story I know is heavy, I won’t open up about it with just anyone. How can we, as a staff, invite them to do that? I’m not going to hang up a sign saying, “Come to me, I’m here for anyone who needs me.” How can we be the ones who make them feel invited? We want to make this change in our yeshivah. How does it happen?

19:26 Speaker 2 I think there are two things. First, you really have to be ready for it.

19:29 Speaker 3 What do you mean?

19:30 Speaker 2 Inwardly, to feel that I’m ready for it, that I’m interested. There are times when I don’t have time, say, or I don’t have the energy. I feel like I don’t have the energy, and sure enough, no one comes to me with their stories. It’s a quiet period. You can really feel that in one-on-one conversations. Okay, the second thing is to occasionally talk about things that aren’t usually discussed. The bochur hears, “Hey, this rabbi knows something about another area,” or—

20:04 Speaker 3 You mean in class.

20:05 Speaker 2 That he’s willing to talk about another area. Yes, to bring something up in class.

20:07 Speaker 3 Give me an example.

20:10 Speaker 2 There’s an example that’s actually built into the curriculum. We want to give them an opportunity to talk about the well-known sin, so that anyone struggling with it who doesn’t know what to do has a chance to get it off his chest and receive support. In the first-year class, they learn chapter 7 of Tanya, and that provides an opportunity to talk about it.

20:33 Speaker 3 Right.

20:34 Speaker 2 There’s even guidance from Rabbi Nissenblatt on how best to talk about it, and all the rabbis do.

20:40 Speaker 3 It’s built in to create that opening... Wow.

20:43 Speaker 2 If someone feels he’s struggling with it, he can reach out—and should. It’s a shame to struggle with it alone.

20:50 Speaker 3 The mashpi’im said that in class.

20:52 Speaker 2 Yes, openly. Now, when a bochur hears that, some will dare to approach the rabbi. But even if he doesn’t, he thinks, “I can talk to Rabbi Halevi. He doesn’t just teach maamarim and chapters of Tanya.” The same thing comes up with chapter 29 in the second-year class.

21:05 Speaker 3 So it comes up in every—

21:08 Speaker 2 Through hashgachah pratis, it works out that way. And there are other things you bring up when something happens, or just in passing.

21:14 Speaker 3 Yes.

21:14 Speaker 2 The bochur hears that the rabbi talks about other things, and that he can talk to him about other things too.

21:20 Speaker 3 And that invites them in.

21:22 Speaker 2 Yes. Often afterward—particularly after I teach chapter 29 in the second-year class, or chapter 7—a few come to me. So the invitation works. And there are others who suddenly come two years later and say, “Rabbi, I remember you spoke about this and that two years ago.” Then they come.

21:39 Speaker 3 It takes them time to put it together, to gather the courage.

21:41 Speaker 2 Yes.

21:43 Speaker 3 But how do you do this systematically? In the end, big yeshivos have dozens and dozens of students. When I was in yeshivah, there were twenty-five of us in the whole year. Today, Boruch Hashem, the yeshivah has grown—doubled, tripled its numbers, maybe even more.

21:57 Speaker 2 Yes.

21:59 Speaker 3 So how does it work systematically? Break it down a little. How can I have personal conversations with a large number of students? How does it happen? It seems almost impossible, doesn’t it? If a yeshivah is packed with bochurim, how can you reach every single one? How does it work?

22:16 Speaker 2 It’s mainly done by class.

22:18 Speaker 3 Mm.

22:18 Speaker 2 I mean, the rabbi still has a lot of students, but it’s twenty-four in the end.

22:22 Speaker 3 You have twenty-four students in a class.

22:24 Speaker 2 Right. The students are generally divided into classes, so it becomes more manageable. And in practice, our system really supports it. We talk about it a lot and make it a central goal. It’s very much part of the job, and...

22:42 Speaker 3 Both the teachers and the mashpi’im—everyone.

22:44 Speaker 2 Both the teachers and the mashpi’im. They even made it an official part of the schedule: you’re supposed to have six conversations a month with students in your class. That counts as six paid hours, and you can increase it to twelve.

23:01 Speaker 3 Six hours means you have six empty hours a week. No classes, no...

23:06 Speaker 2 Not a week—a month.

23:07 Speaker 3 A month. Sorry.

23:07 Speaker 2 Yes.

23:08 Speaker 3 Not a week.

23:09 Speaker 2 Yes.

23:09 Speaker 3 A month—six hours when nothing else is scheduled. Your timetable has time marked off for personal conversations.

23:15 Speaker 2 Well, you don’t have to do it at those particular times. You know, you’re not always in the right frame of mind, and neither are they. So they decided to trust the staff: six hours a month.

23:24 Speaker 3 And does it happen?

23:25 Speaker 2 It’s worth noting that—

23:26 Speaker 3 Does that actually happen?

23:28 Speaker 2 Generally, yes.

23:29 Speaker 3 Meaning the teachers do all six hours.

23:32 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. The six hours almost always happen.

23:34 Speaker 3 Isn’t that a little—

23:34 Speaker 2 Barring slipups.

23:36 Speaker 3 Yes.

23:36 Speaker 2 And reaching twelve hours also speaks a little to the animal soul.

23:40 Speaker 3 What do you mean, reaching six hours?

23:42 Speaker 2 If you have another three conversations or another six, you get paid for another three or six hours.

23:47 Speaker 3 So that ultimately shows up in your monthly pay.

23:50 Speaker 2 Yes.

23:51 Speaker 3 So, and—

23:52 Speaker 2 At first, it was a little hard for us. We thought, “We already do this; it’s the most genuine part of the work. Now you’re turning it into something we get paid for.” That felt uncomfortable. But you get used to it, and in the end the extra pay is nice. And when you’re standing in front of a bochur, you’re not thinking, “Great, let’s talk to him; I’ll get paid for this”—unless you’d have to be very, uh...

24:15 Speaker 3 Like a robot.

24:16 Speaker 2 I don’t know, shallow, or...

24:16 Speaker 3 Yes.

24:17 Speaker 2 I think a normal person, standing in front of a bochur, sees the bochur, talks to him, and the conversation happens.

24:25 Speaker 3 And you’re saying it doesn’t take away the vitality, the life, of it.

24:30 Speaker 2 No, certainly not overall. Maybe in an isolated instance here or there, but generally—

24:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

24:35 Speaker 2 Again, when you actually sit down to talk, you probably do it properly—even if beforehand you calculated, “Okay, that’ll bring me up to nine hours.” Besides, if we didn’t have this, there would probably be fewer conversations, and that matters more in the overall balance, if you think about what’s ultimately more important.

24:58 Speaker 3 You’re saying that my first thought might be, “This cheapens it.” But on the other hand, if I don’t do it, it won’t happen at all. So it makes a difference to do it—

25:07 Speaker 2 And in practice, it doesn’t cheapen it.

25:09 Speaker 3 Wow.

25:10 Speaker 2 Maybe in a tiny percentage of cases. Generally, it...

25:14 Speaker 3 How do you really get the whole staff involved? A yeshivah has a number of teachers, mashpi’im and supervisors. If I want the entire staff to be invested in having personal conversations with the students, rather than the administration just announcing, “You need to have this many conversations—go ahead,” how do I make it something they’re genuinely part of? And is that even what happens? Is it something you personally have taken on at your yeshivah in Tzfas, or is the whole staff invested in it? How do you get the staff invested?

25:49 Speaker 2 I think that from the moment the yeshivah was founded, it was the administrators’ vision.

25:56 Speaker 3 How many years has it been? May he rest in peace.

25:57 Speaker 2 About eighteen. And it was—

26:02 Speaker 3 Rabbi Lipshansky.

26:03 Speaker 2 Rabbi Lipshansky, a"h, and the three administrators on the ground—Rabbi Friedman, Rabbi Yisroel Lipshansky and Rabbi Levi Nissilevitch. It’s very much part of their vision. I mean, it’s an essential part of the yeshivah’s purpose.

26:16 Speaker 3 Of the yeshivah.

26:17 Speaker 2 To have that personal connection, to talk about everything, not just studies. It’s about educating a person. They put that in place from the very beginning and kept talking about it. It comes up at every planning meeting, and—

26:36 Speaker 3 And is it really a topic in the teachers’ room? Is it something the staff talks about among themselves? Does the staff live it?

26:42 Speaker 2 Look, it’s a little sensitive among the staff, because ultimately you’d have to talk about individual cases.

26:47 Speaker 3 Mm.

26:48 Speaker 2 So those aren’t things you talk about much. But you do see the spark in people’s eyes. You can see that it matters to them. There’s a room for conversations, and it’s occupied; you can’t always find a place. And I think there are two things. When some staff members do this and succeed, it influences those around them. People see and understand how important it is, how much it’s needed, and that it can work. And someone who isn’t doing it much feels like he’s missing out.

27:23 Speaker 3 Yes.

27:23 Speaker 2 So he gets involved. But I also think that the more genuine, inwardly connected and caring a person is, the more he feels this is part of his job—not because it’s in the official job description, but because that’s how he feels. To feel that you’re truly doing something meaningful, you ask yourself, “What did I come here for—just to teach him so he can get into some university?” This is a place of education. We want to educate, and this is a central part of education. So you get involved.

27:53 Speaker 3 Mm.

27:53 Speaker 2 In other words, earlier you asked whether making it part of the pay could—

28:01 Speaker 3 Hurt it.

28:01 Speaker 2 Hurt it. It doesn’t, because everyone is invested. It didn’t start with the administration saying it had to be done.

28:08 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

28:08 Speaker 2 It starts with talking about how important it is and telling a few stories around it. And really, at every planning meeting, it’s one of the things that always comes up. That shows you where it stands on the list of priorities.

28:24 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

28:24 Speaker 2 From the yeshiva’s perspective. And you get the sense that it’s a central issue, one of the central issues, so everyone is committed to it. Everyone feels energized about it and understands its importance. So they do it willingly, believing that it’s really, really meaningful.

28:44 Speaker 3 Wow. Now, if a bochur comes to you—and I imagine this does happen—and says, “Night after night, I cry. My pillow is wet,” because of social difficulties or some other spiritual challenge, what can you really do? Okay, he’s sharing it with me. What can I do about his social situation? He’s telling me about a difficulty—how am I supposed to respond?

29:15 Speaker 2 Well, as we discussed earlier, the first step is to be there with him.

29:20 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

29:20 Speaker 2 To be there with him, to genuinely feel sorry with him, to share his pain, to feel it.

29:26 Speaker 3 How? Just sit there silently?

29:29 Speaker 2 Yes.

29:31 Speaker 3 Wow.

29:31 Speaker 2 Be silent, say a word or two now and then. It depends on the state he’s in. Let me bring in a slightly different example. A few years ago, there was a bochur who was caught up in matters of modesty. In other words, he hadn’t come to me on his own.

29:50 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

29:50 Speaker 2 They sent me, as his mashpia, to have the conversation. So I spoke with him, and he denied it completely. Nothing had happened. But we knew it had happened; it wasn’t just a suspicion. So I told him, “Listen, we know. People saw.” He kept denying it a few more times. Eventually he realized we knew.

30:15 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

30:15 Speaker 2 He just put his head in his hands, bent right over, and cried and cried and cried for a whole hour. A whole hour. That’s the longest I’ve ever sat in silence. I was quiet, and the whole time I felt, “I’m with him. I’m with him.” Every so often I said a sentence to him.

30:38 Speaker 3 And you sat there for a whole hour.

30:40 Speaker 2 Yes. Eventually I had to leave to pick up the children, so I made sure a counselor went in to check that he was okay, help him out of it a little, help him come back to himself and recover. It’s a long story. Boruch Hashem, he did a great deal of work and came through it, and... But I really remember that silence. He felt then that I was with him. I really was with him without saying much, and he felt it.

31:13 Speaker 3 The natural thing is to start giving him lectures, or telling him what I think or what he should do. You’re saying that at the initial stage, we need to...

31:22 Speaker 2 Let him lead the conversation.

31:24 Speaker 3 Yes.

31:25 Speaker 2 At his own pace.

31:26 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Now, often in these conversations, the other end of the spectrum comes up too. There’s this idea of “invisible bochurim”—that’s what we call them. These are guys who do what they’re supposed to. They’re chassidishe bochurim; they attend classes, they learn, and naturally they don’t draw us into sitting down for these conversations as much. When there’s a problem, a challenge or a difficulty, that gives us an opening to meet: “Okay, let’s talk. Who are you? Let’s get to know each other.” With the invisible bochurim, do you also find yourself meeting with them much?

32:02 Speaker 2 First of all, the invisible bochurim are actually one of the strongest reasons for having personal conversations, because that’s what helps a bochur not feel invisible. To him, it’s natural that you pay attention to him in class. But when someone really sees him, that happens in a personal conversation. We spoke earlier about those who are in a difficult situation, where paying attention to them can save lives. Here it may not be a matter of saving lives, but it’s deeply meaningful to him that someone sees him as a person and talks with him. That’s the thing with these invisible bochurim.

32:37 Speaker 3 Mm.

32:38 Speaker 2 In practice, when you talk to someone, I think there’s almost no one who’s truly invisible. He may seem invisible on the outside, but when you get a little deeper with him, he has his own story, feelings and complications too. Ultimately, the more he brings of himself to the conversation, the more I can be there with him. With some bochurim, it will end up being two casual conversations over the course of the year, and it won’t go any deeper. That matters too, but it won’t always lead to...

33:08 Speaker 3 But how do you do this every year? I mean, every year you get twenty-four guys and get into the depths of what’s going on inside them. Excuse the expression, but in these conversations, at least from what I hear and remember, you really get involved and sit with them. Then the year ends and they move on, and you get twenty-four new guys. Year after year after year. How do you make that happen afresh every year?

33:36 Speaker 2 Yes, it’s not easy. It’s not easy. There are some who stay in touch after the year ends.

33:42 Speaker 3 Meaning you keep the relationship going.

33:44 Speaker 2 Keep the relationship going. But usually that’s only with someone where something deep and serious came up. If it was casual, then okay, it ended. You move on. It takes me time. Usually in Elul I don’t really manage to do it, for that very reason. The thought of getting into another set of conversations... But in the end, you decide you’re going to do it, and once you start, it’s enjoyable. I enjoy it, and it works well, Boruch Hashem. That itself makes me want to do more of it.

34:13 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

34:14 Speaker 2 But yes, deciding to get into it is a task in itself.

34:18 Speaker 3 What would you say to someone who doesn’t have an organized system in his yeshiva or other educational institution—a classroom teacher or a melamed in cheder—who doesn’t have that system and strong support around him? Boruch Hashem, it’s amazing that this happens in yeshivos, but where it doesn’t exist, how would you recommend he start? What should he do? Where should he begin?

34:42 Speaker 2 Well, before I came to Tzfas, I was in a place that didn’t have this system at all. Not at all. And it was specifically there that I saw the need for it. Bochurim even came to my home. There was a bochur who came over several times just to sit, chat a little and eat something, because he didn’t like the yeshiva food.

35:03 Speaker 3 He came to your home?

35:04 Speaker 2 I knew he—yes, I knew he needed it. So I gently brought him home to talk. I said to him, “Just a second, I need to take care of something in the meantime,” and he remembered that for many years afterward.

35:16 Speaker 3 Wow.

35:17 Speaker 2 Yes, but I think the advice really is, “Taste and see that it is good.” In other words, try starting with someone you find easy to talk to, someone you think might be interesting, someone you feel like talking with. It will probably go well, and you’ll enjoy it, so you’ll want to continue.

35:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. How much of myself should I bring into these conversations? I’m a staff member. Usually there’s an age gap between yeshiva staff and students, and we have different life challenges and life experience. I’m sitting down with a young bochur, whether in a senior or junior yeshiva. Should I share what I’m going through too? Or can it be entirely, “Let’s hear about you. How are things going? How are you feeling?” Is there value in bringing myself into the conversation too? You mentioned at the beginning that we need to put a bit of ourselves into it.

36:09 Speaker 2 Yes. Look, by “putting ourselves into it,” I mean being fully present. That’s what I mean: taking an interest, feeling that I care, and all of that. Sharing about yourself is more delicate. Usually, the need to share is ours, not the bochur’s. You can share a little, but you have to make sure the focus stays on him—that he remains the center of the conversation. And it’s also okay that we’re not equals. He knows I’m a rabbi and he’s a student. It’s a bit like an older friend, but not an ordinary friend, not a friend your own age. It’s different.

36:49 Speaker 3 Do you see a connection between these conversations and their effect on a student’s functioning? You’re the teacher of a student in your class, and lately he hasn’t been doing all that well. You sit down and talk with him. Do you see a direct effect, or not necessarily?

37:08 Speaker 2 Not necessarily.

37:09 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

37:10 Speaker 2 Let’s say it creates more respect, and a feeling that he doesn’t want to make things unpleasant for the rabbi, so he’ll be more respectful and listen more. But when it comes to learning, for example, it won’t necessarily change anything.

37:23 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

37:24 Speaker 2 And honestly, that’s not my goal either, because I’m talking with him about his life, about more internal and deeper things. Sometimes it will reach his learning too, but that’s definitely not the goal. No.

37:38 Speaker 3 Could you share a few stories where you saw this have a direct impact? Say you sat down with a bochur who wasn’t doing well, or, as you described earlier, a quiet or withdrawn bochur, or one with a complicated story, and through those conversations something changed. He changed for the better, or something like that. Do you have a story that illustrates this?

38:04 Speaker 2 Well, there are a few stories. Naturally, you tend to remember the more extreme ones. There was one bochur who wasn’t even in my class and asked if we could [unclear]. He started talking and revealed that he was in a bad place spiritually. So I asked him, “What do you mean? How far does it go? Tefillin?” And he said, “Yes.” Then, thinking he’d surely tell me this was fine, I asked about Yom Kippur. He told me, “I eat.” I remember that was the biggest shock for me in that conversation. He looked like an ordinary bochur, but he was really disconnected, to a very serious degree. Once he got that out, we were able to move forward with so many things. He changed. He started a Torah-learning campaign; he’s a smart bochur, but he had been disconnected. After that, he began encouraging others to learn Torah and learning himself.

39:14 Speaker 3 Wow.

39:15 Speaker 2 Yes. Naturally, that’s a really extreme story.

39:19 Speaker 3 Incredible.

39:20 Speaker 2 And it’s important to know, since we’re talking about this, there was another bochur, a chassidisher bochur, one of the top three in his class.

39:29 Speaker 3 You mean there was something wrong beneath the surface.

39:31 Speaker 2 Not the same one. I’m telling you a different story.

39:33 Speaker 3 Oh.

39:33 Speaker 2 Yes, with the first one you could see that he was disconnected. But this other bochur was one of the top three in the class: an outstanding student, serious about learning, chassidisher, and a bit introverted. One day he said to me, “Rabbi, could I make you my rav?” I said, “Yes.” He asked, “What does ‘make yourself a rav’ involve?” I said, “It depends. It can start with the most ordinary things and go all the way to the most personal matters.” So he thought for a moment. “Well, I have a problem.” In short, it turned out that, strangely enough, he wasn’t putting on Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, and sometimes not even Rashi tefillin. That was a shock too, because he was one of the best bochurim in every respect.

40:24 Speaker 3 In learning Chassidus and Gemara, you mean.

40:26 Speaker 2 Chassidus, farbrengens, niggunim. He lived it; he spoke at the highest level. Everything looked fine, and more than fine. And I said how important it was that we’d talked. Without personal conversations, it would have carried on like that. We did some work on it: What’s going on? How can this be? It turned out there was also a family story behind this kind of disconnection. So he had placed himself at a high level, but inside he wasn’t all that connected.

40:55 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

40:56 Speaker 2 First of all, just the fact that he opened up about it mattered. Then we talked a bit: What do you think about it? What can we do? And boruch Hashem, he got past it. Honestly, I’m telling you, it was simply a miracle. He had just been waiting for this. You could see he was only looking for an opportunity: “Can we talk about this?” Sure. We didn’t even have such a deep relationship yet. For me it was a sudden leap.

41:17 Speaker 3 In a single moment.

41:17 Speaker 2 In a single moment. But, okay, this is my job now. So I really said to myself: this is saving lives.

41:26 Speaker 3 Do you know of anything the Rebbe said about this—about the relationship between the staff and the students?

41:34 Speaker 2 No. But I do see it in various ways. You see, especially with the Frierdiker Rebbe, how he writes to the Temimim, “My beloved ones,” how much he cares and wants to hear about them and wants them to ask. You see that the personal relationship is very, very important. All the stories—let’s say, about the mashpi’im we know—are mainly stories like that, of [unclear] taking a bochur and turning him around. It only happens that way. It’s not just that he taught him a maamar. That too, of course, but afterward he spoke to him as an equal and demanded something of him, presumably in a different way.

42:10 Speaker 3 Yes.

42:10 Speaker 2 But yes, certainly. I don’t know the details, though.

42:17 Speaker 3 Well, to close, we ask our guests for a tip in avodas Hashem or in education—something that works for you and that you can share with us. So perhaps, Rabbi, you could...

42:29 Speaker 2 Something I experienced myself. Boruch Hashem, I grew up near my grandfather, Reb Zusha Posner, and was also somewhat close to Reb Menachem Mendel Gerlik. They constantly instilled in me the idea of the Rebbe—not only the Rebbe as a king or a commander-in-chief, but as someone you long for and miss, someone you love and feel close to, someone with whom you have a personal connection. I’ve seen it at many turning points in my life. Boruch Hashem, it took root in me when I was young, and at so many turning points it really helped that I could feel that close connection. It helped a great deal. Even back then, I hadn’t seen the Rebbe with my own eyes. In our time it’s harder.

43:20 Speaker 3 Yes.

43:21 Speaker 2 But you can see that it’s possible. If you approach it the right way, you can build that connection with the Rebbe, and it’s a wonderful, uplifting, life-saving thing.

43:36 Speaker 3 Absolutely. But how do you do it? That seems to me the big question. How do we build that connection within ourselves, especially now? Where does it come from? You grew up around people who—

43:46 Speaker 2 [unclear]. I think what has the greatest impact is simply hearing from people, whenever you get the chance. You know, a story by Miki Halperin was shared recently. He told an amazing story about himself as a child. He had a hard time socially, and he came to the Rebbe. He’d been waiting for it for years, because there, he thought, everything would be okay. He grew up in Brazil, but when he got to the Rebbe, everything would be okay. In practice, when he got there, there were the other kids, and he was different from them. He says, “I begged the Rebbe to pay attention to me, to show me that he sensed what I was going through.” And he says that after a few weeks—it took time—Kiddush Levanah came around. The Rebbe said “Shalom Aleichem” to the right, then to the left, and then looked behind him. He says, “I was standing many rows back. The Rebbe looked, and the bochurim saw that and made way. The Rebbe kept looking until he reached me, and said ‘Shalom Aleichem’ to me.”

44:44 Speaker 4 Wow.

44:44 Speaker 2 Ah. When I played that for the bochurim, I showed them the video. There was one bochur I’d spoken with many times this year about this. A good, chassidisher bochur, on track in every way. He’d said, “I don’t feel a personal connection to the Rebbe.” I told him, “Try listening. Try bringing it closer to yourself.” Afterward he came to me and said, “Rabbi, I understand. That’s it.”

45:11 Speaker 4 That it’s there.

45:12 Speaker 2 Yes.

45:13 Speaker 4 Wow.

45:14 Speaker 2 So listen, now Tishrei is coming, and, with Hashem’s help, those who travel will come to the Rebbe for Tishrei. That’s where the stories keep coming. I remember that whenever I go for Tishrei—boruch Hashem, almost every year—I end up at Shabbos meals and all sorts of gatherings. You always find people telling stories about the Rebbe. When you hear it from someone who experienced it personally, you feel it. And then you think, okay, it all continues. The Rebbe is with us, and everything is as it was then. You can experience it.

45:44 Speaker 4 A little more.

45:44 Speaker 2 And it’s a wonderful pleasure.

45:47 Speaker 4 Well, amazing. Yasher koach. Thank you for opening our eyes to what seems to me a revolutionary world—putting all of this at the center to such an extent. So yasher koach, and for me this brings things full circle in a meaningful way. Thank you very much, Rabbi.

46:03 Speaker 2 Thank you very much.