The Mistake That Makes Us Stop Trusting Ourselves as Parents | Rabbi Leibish Kaplan #001

00:00 Speaker 1 Rabbi Leibush Kaplan, welcome.

00:02 Speaker 2 Glad to be here.

00:03 Speaker 1 It’s a real pleasure to start the episode this way. I’d like to ask: Why is it that when we see a boy or a child facing some kind of challenge, we as parents often turn to outside help—a therapist or a counselor—instead of coming to him as parents and talking with him?

00:29 Speaker 2 That’s a very good question. I think one of the truly challenging things about parenting is being a parent. That can come from many places. It can come from caring very, very deeply: I don’t want to make a mistake. I don’t have the luxury of making a mistake. This is my child. It can also come from genuinely wanting to give the child the very best. And let’s not forget that when it comes to parenting, unlike teaching in a classroom, you’re much more personally involved. You’re close to the matter yourself, and we know the Sages say that a prisoner cannot free himself from prison. So I don’t think it’s a coincidence that parents very quickly feel helpless with their own children in a way they wouldn’t with a neighbor’s child or a child in their class. That feeling of helplessness often comes much sooner. And if we add to that, we certainly know—and the Rebbe says this in many letters—that there are situations where, precisely because I’m the parent, I’m the one least able to have an influence. Especially if we’re talking about the teenage years. At that age, there are things a child takes in much more from his surroundings than from his parent. That makes it even more emotional: Wait, so what now? He’s also less receptive to me. So maybe I need a professional. What am I supposed to do? Where do I turn? I think many parents feel one or more of the things we’ve mentioned, and as a result, when there’s a problem, they say, “Let’s go to a professional. Let’s find someone outside the family who can help.” And I don’t think that’s a bad

02:34 Speaker 2 thing. The willingness to seek help, to get the best and give the best, is a blessing. What I do hear in your question is that sometimes it goes a little too far, as though every child needs therapy, or every problem is a major one. A problem becomes something very big. And if I understand what’s behind your question, you’re saying: Wait, maybe there’s something else we’re missing. So perhaps you can say more about what you think we’re missing.

03:18 Speaker 1 Today we have lots of courses and all kinds of things that teach us fairly quickly. Say I want to drive a car, or I want to get a gun license. I have to take certain classes. I study, someone tests me and gives me some sort of certification, and then I’m allowed to drive with my license—or to do whatever it is I wanted to do. With parenting, we grow into it. I saw something at home, I saw the families around me, I spent some time at friends’ homes, and that’s it. Then we build homes in the Jewish people. I’m a parent; I’m a father. Boruch Hashem, mazal tov, you’ve become a father. And in many of these situations, we encounter a challenge and I don’t have the answer. I don’t know what to do. The child behaves in a certain way, whether it’s something—

04:16 Speaker 2 You go to a professional.

04:17 Speaker 1 Yes. So I’m saying, wait, maybe it really is right to go for some... There are things you seek guidance for. Now, clearly, this calls for the right balance. Sometimes you can go too far in one direction or the other. I’m asking how we find that balance. When is it right—and necessary—to seek advice? And when, on the other hand, is there something I can bring precisely because I’m this child’s father? What can I bring if I don’t know, if I’ve never studied this? Nobody trained me for these things. Something along those lines.

04:55 Speaker 2 Right. So if I understand you correctly, you’re trying to draw some boundaries: where it’s worthwhile to seek help, without dismissing that help, and where I, as a parent, can come and give what I need to give.

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05:34 Speaker 2 I think that’s an excellent question, and it’s a very good way of looking at it. I’ll go back to your example of a gun or a car. We go and study and get some sort of certification before we can use them. Parents don’t always do that. And I think this is one of the amazing things Hakadosh Boruch Hu created in the world, something we may sometimes overlook: You really don’t need a license to be a parent. You just need to reach a certain age and have certain natural abilities. I think it’s important that we bring that understanding into our parenting. Because today, among the parents I meet, I see quite a few who, because of all the professional expertise available and the exposure to the professional world—which is, in itself, a very good thing—go around feeling, “I’m not a professional. I can’t do this. I’m not capable.” And I think that’s something we need to uproot a little.

06:53 Speaker 1 Feelings of guilt?

06:53 Speaker 2 Uproot it. I’m talking about something that comes even before guilt: a lack of confidence in my ability to be my child’s educator. I can provide for him, I can feed him, I can take care of his physical needs. But his education? No, that’s not something I see as mine. I’m not a professional. There’s even a very interesting letter from the Rebbe, a letter from ’42, in which the Rebbe writes about the basis for why he founded [unclear]. One of the things the Rebbe mentions there—it isn’t the main point of the letter, but it’s strongly emphasized—is that parents gave up their authority over their children’s education. That can happen for a variety of reasons. But if we’re talking about the professional side of things, sometimes sitting with a psychologist, especially one who isn’t good enough, can actually weaken you. He might bring you to a place where you think, “That’s not entirely precise, and if it’s not entirely precise, maybe it’s better not to say it. I’m not professional enough to say it.”

08:13 Speaker 1 All of that is in the parent’s head. Right.

08:15 Speaker 2 Now, I don’t want anyone to come away thinking I’m dismissing the professional world. I’m really not. I’m coming back to what you said: Let’s try to draw some lines. Where does each thing belong, and what is each meant to provide? A professional should provide what a professional is meant to provide, and I, as a parent, should provide what a parent is meant to provide. He shouldn’t take my place, and I shouldn’t take his. But that doesn’t mean every child needs a professional, because the first thing Hakadosh Boruch Hu established in the world is that a child needs a parent. So much so that, if I turn to painful situations, we know how the Torah regards an orphan simply because he is an orphan. A parent is something essential in a child’s life, even without doing very much, so to speak. Even if the parent doesn’t feel they’ve had profound conversations or said anything especially insightful or precise. Before any of that, he’s a parent. He’s a father; she’s a mother. I think we need to pay attention to who we are as parents in our children’s eyes. Who am I to him? I’m his father. With young children, they show us that to some extent. It becomes more confusing in adolescence, when they may even rebel against us—but they rebel against us precisely because of who we are. So let’s not forget who we are. And even if, for some reason, I decide I won’t speak to my child about a particular subject because I think it would be better for his older brother, a friend, the mashpia in yeshiva, or perhaps even a professional to speak to him about it, that isn’t because I’m weak. It’s because the child needs someone else to talk to him about it. But it is important for me to remember that when the child hears

10:33 Speaker 2 How he receives it from me depends a great deal on how present I am in his life, and what that presence looks like. So if I were to draw the first line, I think a parent is, first and foremost, a parent.

10:54 Speaker 1 Simply by being one.

10:55 Speaker 2 Before being an educator or a caregiver. First and foremost, a parent. He’s the father; she’s the mother. Now, there’s a whole other part—education—that the parent will also do. But first, let’s understand who I am. I’m a parent, and that gives me a certain leeway to be less than precise. Let’s take an example from somewhere else. I think we often find that siblings can say things to each other they would never dream of saying to friends. And I’m not saying this is the only reason—let’s not do armchair psychology—but with a friend, I know I have to be careful, because if I say the wrong thing, it could damage the friendship. But my brother is going to remain my brother, so I can say what I want to say. That’s the negative side of it, and I don’t want that to be the model. I’m not suggesting parents should say whatever they feel like saying, or feel comfortable doing that. No. But understand why that mistake doesn’t bring the whole relationship to an end: it’s because you give something much, much deeper. With a therapist, that wouldn’t be overlooked. If a therapist got angry at a patient the way a father can get angry at a child, that wouldn’t be overlooked. Why can it be weathered between a father and child? Because there’s something deeper that a father gives. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s okay to get angry. It doesn’t mean, “Great, let’s get angry.” But it does mean we should understand what we give. And I think that if, as parents, we connect with that place and act from it, we’ll get angry less, because we’ll feel more confident, more steady, more

13:07 Speaker 2 connected to what I give and what my role is. Even if I’m not the world’s worst educator. Because I’m a father. Because I’m a mother. So I think the first thing we need to do is restore our confidence as parents. We need to return to this and look for a moment at what Chassidus says a father and mother are. They’re roots. What are roots? Even a tree with many branches, if its roots are few, a wind can come and uproot it. By contrast, if its branches are few but it has strong roots, no wind in the world will bring it down. That’s a father and mother. Roots. A trunk. The thing that will be there all along. Along the way there will be educators, friends, teachers, men and women, everything. But all of it will grow from the roots and trunk the parents provided. And if I see myself as just another one of those branches, another one of those leaves, then there are no roots.

14:49 Speaker 3 So what does it mean to be present?

14:52 Speaker 2 First of all, to understand that I’m always present. There’s no such thing as not being present. Now, I can be more present. I can broaden the scope, broaden the areas, the subjects, the times. But first of all, I’m present. I’m present in my child’s life. And I say that because, from what I see on the ground, I feel that parents often aren’t sure of it. They’re not always sure. Now, I’m not saying that I want someone listening to us to come away thinking, “Well, I’m always present in my child’s life, so everything’s fine.” No, that would be a shame, because you’d be missing something. Because when you, as a father or mother, open up another area of your child’s life, you bring all that strength with you. What I do want to make clear is that your being a mother doesn’t depend on that. Don’t feel less of a mother. Don’t feel weakened; none of us should feel weakened or incapable. We all have different abilities, and there are different ways of communicating, too. Not every parent will be able to talk about every subject in the world. That’s where professionals come in. Let’s go and get guidance—but I’m not getting guidance because the professional knows how to educate my child. I’m getting guidance because they know the subject, they know the field. Now they can help me figure out how to say it to my child.

17:13 Speaker 4 About that subject. But no—ultimately, I’m the… If I’m the parent, I’m the…

17:19 Speaker 2 Right. So it’s preferable for a lot of these things to come from me. But even if they come from the professional, if I’m involved in the process—if I’m the one who brings my child to them and connects the two—my child will know that I know about it. There are all sorts of layers to that. It gives it tremendous strength. It gives it tremendous power.

17:50 Speaker 4 I’d like us to spend a little time on this… The word “present” is—

17:55 Speaker 2 Too broad.

17:55 Speaker 4 It is broad. We work. A parent has to provide, as you said—to take care of the home, to feed the children. And if there are several children… Life itself can bring so much, including personal things we’re dealing with. There’s a home, personal matters. Being present amid all that can feel… What does it mean? Does it mean saying “good morning,” [unclear] afternoon [?]…? Let’s bring it down to earth a bit and make this idea of being present simpler.

18:26 Speaker 2 So let’s really try to make it a little simpler.

18:28 Speaker 4 But before that, we spoke about the essential point: what’s happening inside me before I put it into practice.

18:33 Speaker 2 Right. So let’s go back to that, because I think it’s important. When we’re talking about professionals as compared with parents, I think the first thing a parent needs to remember is what they give. First and foremost, they give the very fact that they are a parent, and that’s something intrinsic.

18:56 Speaker 4 Roots, as you said.

18:56 Speaker 2 It’s something foundational. Exactly. It’s deep, it’s there, and nobody else can give it. So even if I’m not the most professional person, even if I feel I haven’t been trained in how to say certain things—and there are subjects my child is dealing with that I really don’t know what to say about—okay, perhaps I’ll go to a professional who will help me find the words. Perhaps I’ll decide to speak with his rabbi at the yeshiva so that his rabbi can talk to him about it. Perhaps I’ll send him to an institution where I know they discuss these subjects, and I know what he’s receiving there. That doesn’t make me any less of a father. You’re no less of a father. Why? Because when your child sits with his rabbi at the yeshiva, so much of how he receives what he hears depends on where you stand in relation to him. Now, when I say “present,” I think presence really is a very, very broad word. I think you’re right. It is broad, because presence can vary from place to place and time to time. There’s physical presence. Sometimes someone simply needs you to be beside them. Okay? Sometimes someone simply needs you to stand physically beside them. There’s a more emotional kind of presence. And there’s presence around particular subjects, too. I can listen to my child in certain areas; I can talk with him about certain subjects, more intimate subjects. Okay? So I think that, in the end, as parents we want to offer as many layers of presence as we can: physical, emotional, in learning, in education, and in values. We want to be present in as many areas of life as possible.

20:54 Speaker 2 Their own. Now, there will be differences between us in how we’re present. Hakadosh Boruch Hu created us with different natures and in different ways, okay? And the first thing to remember is that this doesn’t make one father better and another father worse. First and foremost, you’re a father, and we can learn to be present in different ways. That’s where professionals can help us a little, and sometimes I can go and get help. I’m not against getting help. But if that help comes from a place of total weakness, from not trusting my own ability, then we get confused. Now, if I feel that lack of confidence, help might enable me to discover what I’m capable of. But what I want to say is that, very often, we have a great deal to give beyond what therapists can offer. And I do think that sometimes we may go a little overboard with the amount of therapy children receive. Not long ago, someone told me, “All my children have been in emotional therapy.” He said it with a lot of pride. I had no interest in bursting his bubble, so I didn’t say anything. But I don’t necessarily see that as a great success. Why does every child need emotional therapy? Emotional therapy is what its name says: therapy for emotional needs. Some children need it; others don’t. Not every child has to have emotional therapy. It has its purposes, its particular uses. Not every child has to see a neurologist.

22:53 Speaker 5 What can I, as a father, give?

22:56 Speaker 2 The first thing I can give as a father is simply being their father.

23:00 Speaker 5 That’s it.

23:00 Speaker 2 And I want to say more than that. Even if my child goes to emotional therapy, much of the therapy’s success depends on me. The simplest example: if I’m at peace with his going, he’ll feel more at peace with it. And if I’m anxious about it, he’ll be anxious too, without us ever talking about it.

23:28 Speaker 5 Let me ask you: you said someone came to you, a friend who said, “All my children have been in therapy.” You don’t necessarily see that as something that’s—

23:36 Speaker 2 Now, it may be that his children really did need it.

23:38 Speaker 5 Yes.

23:39 Speaker 2 I’m not dismissing that, okay? I didn’t look into the details. I’m only saying that I don’t see emotional therapy as something everyone necessarily needs. Emotional therapy is what its name says: therapy for emotional needs. If a child needs it, then let’s go. But if he doesn’t, there’s no reason to put him there. And I think there are so many things we can resolve with more time spent parenting, with more of our own presence. Whether that means being involved at school or being involved with the child—I think that, as parents, we often notice when one child needs more of us. Mothers are better at that than fathers. So let’s let them tell us which child needs it, and let’s try to give as much as we can. Sometimes going for a walk with Mom once every week or two is worth far more than emotional therapy, because that’s what the child needs. And that walk with Mom doesn’t necessarily have to involve a very deep heart-to-heart. It might, but just the fact that they went out, talked, took an interest in each other’s lives, shared things, and had that closeness—that’s a mother giving her child closeness. It’s a boost. It’s enormous. It’s a different kind of strength.

25:16 Speaker 6 Sometimes it’s even much more than any professional treatment from someone outside the family. The fact that I—

25:22 Speaker 2 Usually. Now—

25:26 Speaker 6 And is there a goal to a meeting like that, or is the goal simply being together?

25:30 Speaker 2 First of all, sometimes it’s simply being together. Sometimes there’s also a specific goal. Sometimes we know a child is struggling with something, and we want to talk to him about it, give it some space—excellent. But sometimes it’s the being together itself. So if you asked what presence means, presence can mean taking a walk together. Presence can mean a conversation about something. Presence can mean staying silent about something. I saw it. He saw that I saw it, and I said nothing. That’s presence too. And I think we can remember moments like that, when we knew our parents knew, and all we needed was for them to know. That was all. I didn’t need to hear anything. They didn’t need to say anything to me. I knew they knew.

26:27 Speaker 6 And what would you say to parents who—not only do they not necessarily see themselves as the ones who can provide their children’s education, or feel they’re enough for their children, but they also carry a lot of guilt? That seems to me like another level, something that comes up a lot.

26:50 Speaker 2 So first of all, I think guilt is part of—first of all, it’s one of the hallmarks of a Jewish mother.

26:58 Speaker 6 Guilt.

26:59 Speaker 2 Yes.

27:00 Speaker 6 Why? Explain.

27:02 Speaker 2 I don’t know. That’s how it developed. It’s a fact.

27:05 Speaker 6 Why does it happen?

27:06 Speaker 2 It happens in practice. So I think, first of all, guilt is a significant part of our lives in many areas, including our avodas Hashem. We often feel guilty that we’re not enough of this or that. I think guilt often reflects a sense of responsibility: I care, I worry, and so I turn that into guilt. I’m to blame. Now, it’s true that because I’m responsible, if something didn’t happen, I feel I’m to blame. Okay, so I think we first need to learn how to work with feelings of guilt. But that’s not what we’re here to discuss. What I do want to say is that sometimes those feelings of guilt arise because what we expect of ourselves isn’t what we’re actually meant to give. And I want to emphasize the foundation we need to provide. You can build all sorts of things on top of it later, but don’t miss the foundation.

28:06 Speaker 6 Which is being present in our children’s lives.

28:07 Speaker 2 Yes. And I know—and I think we all know, well, not all of us; I don’t like the phrase “all of us”—but we see that there are great educators who have difficulties with their own children. And I think therapists can also have difficulties with their own children.

28:28 Speaker 6 How do you explain that?

28:30 Speaker 2 Part of the explanation is that your child doesn’t need you as a therapist. He needs you as a father, and sometimes that’s precisely what gets confused. Because I’m a great educator, because I’m a great therapist, I come home wearing that same hat. No. You’re not your child’s therapist. First and foremost, you’re your child’s father. First and foremost, you’re your child’s mother. You’re not her English teacher or her classroom teacher, either. First and foremost, you’re her mother; first and foremost, you’re her father. That’s a different role. So let’s step into that for a moment. Certainly, when there’s a particular difficulty and I see the teacher succeeding where I haven’t, I may feel inadequate. But I want to say that part of the teacher’s success comes from the fact that you’re there. How are you there? First, there are many layers to it. There can be actual cooperation, and there’s also the simple fact that the child knows Dad trusts the yeshivah. Not “trusts” in the sense that he doesn’t care. Dad is in touch, Dad knows what’s going on, Dad cares, and that gives the child the strength to succeed in yeshivah.

29:52 Speaker 6 Mm-hmm.

29:54 Speaker 2 So I think that will also reduce the feelings of guilt. And I’m saying: let’s connect with that for a moment. There are many more layers, but I’m going back to the foundation, because I think it often gets missed. I’ve heard lots of workshops on how to talk to children about this and how to talk to them about that, and that’s excellent. I’m not against any of it. I’m in favor of a great deal of it—as much as possible, for that matter. But it shouldn’t come at the expense of the foundation: what am I meant to give first? First and foremost, I’m a father; first and foremost, you’re a mother. And the home should be enjoyable, a place that, first of all, feels pleasant to be in. A place where I belong and where I have that most basic, minimal acceptance. All of that needs to be there. Afterward, you can build many, many more layers.

30:56 Speaker 6 At the beginning you said that it varies a lot, that presence changes with age. I was thinking about that as we spoke. When children are young, when a child is a baby, our presence is very tangible, physically too, and the child really needs us. But as they grow older, especially at the ages of yeshivah ketanah and yeshivah gedolah—sixteen, seventeen, eighteen—it seems to me that presence takes a somewhat different form.

31:26 Speaker 2 Right.

31:27 Speaker 6 You even mentioned earlier that he might challenge me and so on. So I’d be glad if we could explore that a little. At those ages, where does presence come in?

31:37 Speaker 2 So maybe, maybe I’ll tell you an episode I remember from my own life. Not that everyone has to be like me, but I remember arriving at yeshiva ketana as the eldest son in a baal teshuvah family. I was the first to leave home for yeshiva, and I remember that the move to the dormitory wasn’t easy for me. To put it mildly, it wasn’t easy. I remember my father coming to visit me, and to this day I remember where I stood. It was at the yeshiva in Lod. I stood on the lawn behind the dining room, because not many boys went there. And I remember, I really remember, that feeling of: Dad, go away, because I’m embarrassed that you’re here—it means I’m weak. And Dad, you can’t leave. Dad, you have to stay here. That cry inside me, between “go away” and “stay here,” “go” and “stay.” That’s a lot of what a teenager goes through. On the one hand, his parents are very, very, very present in his life and very important to him. Their opinion matters a great deal to him; it matters a great deal to him to please them, and for them to trust him, and for his parents to—because they’re his parents. At the same time, he’s building his independence, and as part of that, precisely because the bond with his parents is so intrinsic, they pose the greatest threat to his sense of self.

33:22 Speaker 7 …

33:23 Speaker 2 In other words, if I’m Chassidic because my mashpia is Chassidic, it’s my choice to accept that from him. But if I’m Chassidic because my father is Chassidic, that’s not really my choice. I’m a continuation of my father.

33:37 Speaker 7 Because that’s the root.

33:39 Speaker 2 Exactly. So that root, that intrinsic root, often creates the conflicts too. But let’s understand that this is the foundation. And I think that if we go back to your first question and look at it from there, then even if we go to a professional, we may go from a different position. And I have no problem at all with professionals. I’m not against them; I actually make a living from working with them too. But I think we have to be careful that it doesn’t come at the expense of this place. It’s not that the professional can do it and I can’t. Rather, even if he succeeds, it will be through me.

34:35 Speaker 7 And parents listening now who say, “My son is already past the—” or who feel they aren’t present enough: is this something you can begin even midway through, especially at these ages? Can I suddenly, when my child is seventeen—beyond wanting to—how can I suddenly start being present in his life? I’m actually always present, but how can I add this if I haven’t paid enough attention to it? Or is it too late?

35:03 Speaker 2 I think there’s a very interesting phenomenon, probably even more so among yeshiva boys. A boy hasn’t been home for who knows how many years. Yeshiva ketana, yeshiva gedola, he went on kevutzah, went on shlichus, went here, went there. His mother had to argue with him to get him to come home for even a quarter of an hour when he was around for Shabbos. Suddenly he gets married. Just like that, he starts coming home all the time. He comes for Shabbos, for another Yom Tov, another Yom Tov, another Shabbos. Suddenly he’s there. What happened? Home was always present. He was always there at home. And because this is an intrinsic bond, you can always—you can simply start making the bond that already exists more present, revealing it on more levels.

35:54 Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

35:55 Speaker 2 And yes, we may suddenly feel, “Listen, I want to be more present in my child’s life.” I don’t think there’s a parent who hasn’t felt that. Even if other people look and say, “Wow, he’s incredibly present,” and even if, by any measure, I really do rank high in being present, I probably want to be more present because I care and my child matters to me. So let’s take it one step further.

36:24 Speaker 7 I think what this adds is that it’s not only that I care; it also has an effect in a way that isn’t—

36:32 Speaker 2 Right.

36:33 Speaker 7 Where can you give an example? After all, you work a lot in education, with teenagers and with staff.

36:40 Speaker 2 I think we’re all familiar with the phenomenon of repeating our parents’ patterns, right? When we get married, we often reproduce what we saw at home. You could view it as something merely mechanical: that’s what I know, that’s what I saw. But first of all, think how much you didn’t want it. There are many things you actively opposed, and yet you find yourself doing them. And I think part of that is because home is deeply engraved in me. It’s part of me. The home I grew up in and the parents I had are part of my personality. They’re part of who I am. So I think we see on many levels of life just how deep the connection between parents and children is. And when I look at Chassidus, it’s like that there too: father and mother, right? So let’s translate that for a moment into parenting. Now, I’m speaking here about just one aspect among many aspects of parenting. I don’t want us to reduce parenting to only this, okay?

37:56 Speaker 7 But it’s a place to start.

37:58 Speaker 2 Exactly. But since you brought up professionals, I do want to say that I think part of the proliferation of professionals stems from our lack of connection to this intrinsic sense of who we are. And I can say that I’ve personally consulted professionals about my children more than once, and I found that the professionals with a lot of experience always put the ball back in my court. Those with less experience immediately had all kinds of plans for what I should do.

38:35 Speaker 7 What do you mean by putting the ball back in your court?

38:38 Speaker 2 “Take him out. Spend time with him once a week. Right now, he’s the child calling out to you. Don’t send him to therapy. If anything, go for a consultation yourself.” I can say that more than once I’ve also been in situations where professionals told a couple, “No, you don’t need couples therapy. You just need an hour together each week. Trust yourselves.”

39:09 Speaker 7 Yes.

39:12 Speaker 2 Now, I don’t think that’s simple—there’s a play on words there. I don’t think it’s easy; it takes a lot of effort. I’d call it tuning in more than anything, okay? Because in the end, a great deal of good therapy is based on a relationship. A huge amount. Not all of it, but a great deal rests on the relationship between therapist and patient. So in the end, it comes down to relationships. If we make the most of those relationships, it gives us so much—certainly when it’s a father and mother.

39:53 Speaker 7 Yes. If you had to suggest one thing to start with, at the most practical level—there’s so much, and it varies a lot by age. Let’s focus a little on the teenage years: yeshiva ketana, yeshiva gedola, high school, things like that. Where would you suggest starting? Because we said it could range from a thunderous silence to going out for a walk. What’s one thing someone listening could start with if they’re saying, “I want to be a little more present”?

40:40 Speaker 8 Good question, and I’ll explain why. Because I want to go back to something that comes even before the solution of what to do with your child. Going for a walk with your child is wonderful. But before you go for that walk, I want you to picture it: a father and son walking together. I am the most significant person in his life. He doesn’t always feel that, especially if he’s fifteen. If he’s fifteen, he feels that his mashpia and his friends matter much more to him than I do. But even if I’ve only had a two-minute phone conversation with him, or just the smallest bit of small talk, there’s something consistent about it, something present, and I live with the awareness that I’m his father. I’m calling him now, and I’m going out for a walk with him. But I’m his father. I want us to think about that place. Do you understand?

41:54 Speaker 7 Yes, yes, absolutely.

41:55 Speaker 8 I mean, the way I picture it, I want us to close our eyes once a day and take a moment to think about who we are to our children. I think that’s where we’ll begin to act from, too. But first, let’s live with that awareness within ourselves. I say this very, very carefully, because I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way. But I think so much of what happens in the world around us is about blaming parents, blaming the systems, saying they aren’t professional enough or don’t know enough. Even in the wider world, people say, “Let’s have smaller families so we can invest more in each child,” and you see that it doesn’t work. Because the bond of a father and mother with their children is an essential bond. It can extend to eleven, twelve, thirteen, even sixteen children, just as it can to two. There’s no difference. The difference is where I’m coming from. If I come from a place of thinking that, to be a good parent, I have to meet a certain set of requirements, then I probably will have fewer children, and I probably won’t meet those requirements anyway. But if I understand that, as a parent, the first thing I am is a parent, then that is something I can give very generously. Okay? And now I can add many more layers to that. I don’t want us to stop there. Let’s give everything. But first, let’s understand what we give as a father and mother.

43:51 Speaker 7 You can add more onto that same foundation.

43:53 Speaker 8 Exactly. But it comes from the fact that I am the foundation, from who I am. And from there, let’s expand. That’s why a three-minute phone call can sometimes be enough, especially with a fifteen-, sixteen-, or seventeen-year-old. The question is whether he needs money. Then it won’t take much longer than that.

44:17 Speaker 7 “Dad, how much do you need?”

44:19 Speaker 8 Exactly.

44:19 Speaker 7 Yes.

44:19 Speaker 8 But even then, if I understand that the money I’m giving him isn’t just money—it’s money his father gave him. He could earn money himself. If I live with that awareness, too, I think everything will change.

44:44 Speaker 7 Well, I was trying to get something practical out of this, and you’re saying it starts long before that. It’s not about that.

44:49 Speaker 8 I want the practical side. I want the conversation with the child. I want all of it. I’m not—

44:54 Speaker 7 But that’s not where you—

44:55 Speaker 8 No. Exactly. But I’m trying to talk about something else. I mean, if you ask me how I see this rush toward the professional world, this is what I feel:

45:04 Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

45:04 Speaker 8 The rush toward the professional world comes from not being sufficiently connected to what we’re meant to give.

45:11 Speaker 7 And connecting to it is simply a matter of talking about it, thinking about it. There isn’t some—

45:16 Speaker 8 Yes, just remembering it. Reminding ourselves once a day, twice a day. Reminding each other.

45:24 Speaker 7 Because it happens whether we want it to or—

45:26 Speaker 8 Of course it happens. Many times, we can feel helpless with a child. That happens to us as educators, too. You know what I mean? You feel helpless, but afterward you go to the teachers’ lounge. And I believe—and maybe you’ll relate to this—that there’s a moment when you have no idea what to do, but you know you’ll succeed. Do you know that feeling?

46:00 Speaker 7 Something like that, yes.

46:02 Speaker 8 You’re walking around the school, and there’s a student who’s withdrawing. You know you need to deal with it. You don’t know how, because you’ve tried and tried and tried. But somewhere in your heart, you have this feeling that says, “We’ll succeed.”

46:19 Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

46:21 Speaker 8 That’s what I want. I want us, as parents, to learn to sometimes go into a room and tell ourselves, “I’m his mother, and I’ll succeed. I’m his father, and I’ll succeed.” I don’t know what the way forward will be, but we’ll succeed.

46:43 Speaker 7 Wow. Well, that’s powerful and deep. Before we finish, one tip from you—something that works for you. It doesn’t necessarily have to relate to this conversation. It could be about avodas Hashem, raising children, or educating ourselves. Share something with us before we finish.

47:07 Speaker 8 “Works”? A tip and something that works are two different things.

47:11 Speaker 7 Yes.

47:12 Speaker 8 But I think... There’s a story about the Alter Rebbe that stays with me a lot. This was during the time of the Maggid. The Alter Rebbe was on his way to the Maggid and passed through a town where there was a wealthy man known for his hospitality. He had an inn and would put people up for as long as they wanted, provide all their food, and give them a generous donation when they left. That wealthy man was apparently a perceptive Jew, and he realized the Alter Rebbe was no ordinary person. That night, he waited and knocked on the Alter Rebbe’s door. He asked if he could pose a question. His question was: How could he know that everything he was doing was for the sake of Heaven? Maybe he was simply doing it for himself? He received a lot of honor for it. People throughout the area talked about him and described him as a great host. Maybe he was doing it all for himself? So the Alter Rebbe answered him: “But the poor person really does eat, and the poor person really does need the money and a place to sleep.” What struck me about the story is what the Alter Rebbe is really telling him: Why are you looking to do it for the sake of Heaven? Then do it for the sake of Heaven. Pay attention to what you are doing. In avodas Hashem, we’re often occupied with wanting to be at a certain level, with a certain aspiration. That’s good; it’s necessary. But if what we want is completely disconnected from what we actually do, it turns into despair. Living between an infinite aspiration—because Hakadosh Boruch Hu is infinite—and the everyday work of making a dwelling for Him in the lower realms can be very confusing. I think the Alter Rebbe is giving us a certain foundation here: Let’s pay attention to who we are, what’s happening, and what is taking place here in Hakadosh Boruch Hu’s world.

49:45 Speaker 8 In practice, a Jew does things. In practice, a Jew makes a difference. In practice, a Jew lives. Yes, there’s no end to where we can go, and we need to hold on to both of those things. But first, we need to live with the knowledge that I am part of this, that I belong. That I am doing something, not nothing. Now, it’s true that there are moments like the one the Rebbe speaks about on 28 Nissan: apparently nothing has been accomplished, because the fact is that... Yes. But the Rebbe also says, “After everything that has been accomplished.” In other words, there is what has been accomplished, and there is the fact that, when it comes down to it, it still hasn’t happened. That’s true. But live with that awareness. Stop for a moment and notice what’s happening. Notice what you’re doing, and live your avodas Hashem in every moment. The easiest thing is to dwell on how poor your davening was. That’s the easiest thing. It can also seem the most chassidic, the most inward, all of that. At the same time, we also need to pause and say, “Okay, what’s the next step, and how do I move forward with it?” Notice what we are doing and what we do belong to, and live with that. I think it connects to what we were saying: stop and notice that Hakadosh Boruch Hu believes in us. We are Jews, we are chassidim, and all of this belongs to us. It’s not that we need to become people who belong. We already belong. A Jew belongs at any level, whatever it may be. So go ahead—there’s endless work to do, but it comes from a place of belonging. I don’t need to create that belonging.

51:34 Speaker 9 Instead of dwelling on how far I am from it, or how I’m not there.

51:37 Speaker 8 What?

51:38 Speaker 9 Instead of dwelling on how far away I am—

51:40 Speaker 8 Exactly.

51:40 Speaker 9 Or on how I’m not there.

51:41 Speaker 8 I can sometimes take stock and see, “Wow, I’m far away.” Okay—but I belong.

51:47 Speaker 9 Precisely from that place. Right?

51:48 Speaker 8 Yes.

51:49 Speaker 9 Rabbi Leibush Kaplan—

51:50 Speaker 8 Smile.

51:51 Speaker 9 Yasher koach. Thank you very much.