אור החסידות: לזכרו של הרב עקיבא וגנר – הרב גרשון אבצן

00:00 Speaker 1 The rabbi and weren't mostly nefesh to open up Tempite Mimin, just thought we should learn more Hasidus. It was that the whole day should be different. You walk into this yeshiva, you're like, "This is a different moysik." In other words, Hasidus Shechinuch, chinuch with Hasidus, and Hasidus, it's not just do you sell a few stories. It's not like a spice and a pepper to the salad, you know? It's supposed to be nikker that it's oif and achar legami. Like, this is a different product. When I saw Rabbi Wagner at Tannezil for the first time, this is not about yeshiva with a little bit of another fabrengen. There's another way to live. It's something different.

00:40 Speaker 2 You know when you're at a good toychemdike fabrengen and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs, Conversations in Hasidus, a podcast fabrengen where we have real conversations about real Hasidus. Shalom aleichem.

00:58 Speaker 1 Aleichem shalom.

01:00 Speaker 2 Thank you very much. I'm here in Lubavitch Yeshiva, Cincinnati, with Rabbi Gershi Avtzin. You're a yeshiva, menal, mesivta, zal, baruch Hashem. It's, uh, you were telling me a little bit before about the growth of the moisets-

01:11 Speaker 1 Baruch Hashem

01:11 Speaker 2 ... which is fantastic. And thank you very much for taking the time to, uh, to talk to me, to fabrengen with me. Um, let's take it back, 'cause I, I know that you were in yeshiva with Rabbi Kiva Wagner, with my uncle. But I, I would like to hear-- I, I grew up in Toronto. I vaguely remember as a four-year-old your, your group of, uh, friends, your, uh, the group of bachurim that were there. I used to come to my father's house all the time, fabrengen.

01:35 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

01:36 Speaker 2 Um, so I guess that's like my starting point of this conversation. I would love to hear like how it was in yeshiva, and then obviously your yeshiva now. So I'm sure that, uh, that's connected. So let's, uh, start with that.

01:46 Speaker 1 So I was zeich to be born and bred in Crown Heights. I'm from the first class of Tzivos Hashem, Tavshim HaMalach.

01:53 Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

01:53 Speaker 1 Born right into the Rebbe's army. Grew up literally by the Rebbe's feet. You know, be- the kids sitting by the Rebbe's fabrengens. My father's place by fabrengen was right behind the Rebbe.

02:05 Speaker 2 Yes.

02:05 Speaker 1 So I went for many years since from three to fourteen, Lubavitch Yeshiva, Ocean Parkway, Rabbi Bogomilsky, Rabbi Shalom Barris. These were my, uh, principals, assistant principal. You know, we would travel to Lubavitch Yeshiva all the time. I graduated eighth grade, Chei Teches, the Tamuz Tav Shin Nun Dalet. That was our graduation. And we started Mesivta, Lubavitch Yeshiva Mesivta, which is called today Chei V'Torah, Tav Shin Nun Heh. Now, there are those that might find it shocking that Crown Street, they were looking to fill up space. We had the Mesivta and the zal of, of Chei V'Torah was the third floor of Crown Street because the moisid was smaller-

02:49 Speaker 2 Wow

02:49 Speaker 1 ... and they had a whole empty floor for the Mesivta and the zal. So we spent, uh, our Mesivta years, Shaul and Bays, in Crown Street. Shagim, we moved to Eastern Parkway, Chei V'Torah. When we started yeshiva, for us it was starting yeshiva, but for the Hachola and the whole Lubavitch, it was Tav Shin Nun Heh was the first year, the first zman alimudim after Gimel Tamuz. I heard this, I never verified, that that was the first year they added psachim to the cycle of the Gemaras, because, well, they figured they need an easier mesechta for the olam to learn. That's what I heard. But our Maishi Alef year, we learned psachim. And I just have to be honest, to us, it was going to high school, including the Mudichol. We would travel to Ocean Parkway every day, half a day.

03:43 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

03:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:43 Speaker 2 The Mudichol was in Ocean Parkway?

03:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:45 Speaker 2 Interesting.

03:46 Speaker 1 So I'm not gonna say how much lumadei kodesh or lumadei chol we learned, but we would travel back and forth. Just to give you a perspective, there was no nightsay there. You know, this-- it was a very, very different mesivta, and this was all over. Like, we really felt that we were high school kids from chicsidish, from high school kids. I think we had, like, two fabrengens the whole year. We had a wonderful teacher who came with well intention. I remember his notebook, prepared shiyurim on Tanya, and very quickly that dissipated, and he came to the first fabrengen, and we didn't know what a fabrengen was. So we were little kids. We were acting up, and he said, "You guys don't appreciate fabrengens. You think it's just a vilda birthday party. No more fabrengens." And for us, I was like, "Okay." We weren't sure if that was good or if that was bad, but the whole concept of fabrengens, like, was a nonexistent thing. It was just a regular high school experience. Shir Alef Mesivta, now, again, another thing that made people may not be aware is that YSP, the Yeshiva Pro- Summer Program in Morristown, their rule was they took bochurim from Shir Alef Mesivta.

04:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:55 Speaker 1 But Alatorre, eighth grade, they made Shir Alef.

04:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:59 Speaker 1 So for years, it was eighth grade, Alatorre, ninth grade, Lubavitch Yeshiva. That was the makeup of YSP.

05:05 Speaker 2 Interesting.

05:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. So we went there. So again, a nice summer program where I met a lot of friends. And Shir Bays, again, I was in Chei V'Torah. But Shir Bays in the summer, that's when there was really no program for us anymore. So where are we supposed to go? The Maslul, the official track, finished after YSP. And I had a very close friend. Today, he's a shliach in Oakland, the Rabbi Rashi, Rabbi Dovid Lobkowski, who's Rabbi Akiva Wagner's brother-in-law.

05:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:35 Speaker 1 I was talking to him about the summer. He said, "Oh, my brother-in-law, Rabbi Wagner, he has a summer program in Tannersville, New York. You know, you might enjoy it. You know, you might enjoy it. And it has boys our age from Alatorre, some of them that I knew. This is from the bungalow colony and other places. You really might enjoy it. It's a small Heimansha program." I said, "Hey, why not?" Like, I had no other real, uh, idea of where to go, and it was like sounded nice. Learning, fun. And I asked my parents, "Wanna register in Townsville? Why not?"

06:09 Speaker 2 It w- it had already opened the summer before?

06:10 Speaker 1 The summer before, it had already been there.

06:12 Speaker 2 Wow.

06:13 Speaker 1 And some boys from my class had already gone there, and I saw that they came back a lot more serious than they left.

06:20 Speaker 2 Hmm.

06:20 Speaker 1 But again, that wasn't the big attraction. It was, "Why not? Nice place to go." And I came there, you know, you unpack your bags. It was like a little, uh, motel style, and right away I noticed that this is gonna be a very different summer. I, I see no basketball courts. I see no one playing anything. You know, coming from the Lubavitch Yeshiva crowd, we were very sports-oriented. I was like, "Something is missing over here. I don't see, like, a lot of food. I don't see a lot of games. I don't-- I see a lot of sfarim that people have, and everyone's getting very serious," but... So again, I was nice, sweet, naive. So I went to Rabbi Wagner and I, you know, he was Rosh Yeshiva. I remember his little son, Yitzchok, running around on the floor there. I'm like, "Rabbi, can I speak to you?" You know, he makes this very serious face, the kipa. "Yeah. What can I do for you?" I said, "Rabbi Wagner, I see no sports equipment in this place. How am I gonna survive the summer?" He says, "It's a very, very serious thing." He calls over the counselor. I remember it was Rabbi Yossi Eber, who's now a shliach in Florida, and Rabbi Aaron Isaac Benyaminson was a shliach in Rhode Island. Calls them over, pulls out $10. He says, "Go buy sports equipment." I realize that he has no idea what I'm talking about, and that began a wonderful, wonderful summer. It was really an eye-opener.

07:42 Speaker 1 Like, the first time, I remember Nayim Wagner, now Rosh Yeshiva in Johannesburg, was our learning teacher, and, like, he made kiddush the first Shabbos, and it was like 4:00. I was like, "What's wrong with this guy? Why is he making kiddush at four o'clock?" Like, everything was so foreign, but all of a sudden, a lot of Hasidisha friends, a lot of nigunim. Like, what... It's, it was a real, real eye-opener. You forget that you could live in Crown Heights and mamash by the Rebbe, and I spent a lot of time with the Rebbe, especially 'cause my bubbe, zal wen zimern, she, Mrs. Gitlin, she's one of the ladies that schlepped people by dollars from the ladies section.

08:18 Speaker 2 Right.

08:18 Speaker 1 So every time there was a dollars or a sicha, she would pick us kids up. I spent hours and hours and hours by the Rebbe, in the Rebbe's house in Taf Shimon Ches-

08:26 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah

08:27 Speaker 1 ... because she was there, so I was with her until the end of the haluka.

08:30 Speaker 2 Right.

08:31 Speaker 1 And she would bring us home. But there was a big difference between knowing that we have a Rebbe and believing that the Rebbe is gonna take us out of galus. That was bechol hashtude. Nun, gimel, and daled, we experience this every day. But Hasidishkeit and the arunkait and the vachluchas and the varmkeit, it was two different worlds. Today, it's a lot of it goes together, but then it was very, very separate. And what happened was that, that, after that summer, Rabbi Wagner opened up Elul Taf Shimon Bav, year 5727, he opened up Yeshivas Lubavitch Toronto, reopened.

09:02 Speaker 2 Right.

09:03 Speaker 1 And a lot of boys from the Townsville program went there.

09:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:08 Speaker 1 I didn't. I continued in Chevei Torah, but I already had a little gefil for the chevra there. And in addition, my mother has only one brother and one sister, and they both live in Toronto, so we would come visit every year anyways.

09:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:24 Speaker 1 Come visit Toronto, 'cause that's my mother's only brother and sister, lived there. So we ended up... I was very excited to go visit there for Purim. I remember it. I was like, we'd come every Purim. I was extremely excited to visit for Purim. And I remember coming and I asked my father, "Where's the yeshiva?" My father knew the layout of Toronto. The yeshiva started off in the old Edinburgh Shul.

09:50 Speaker 2 All the places started off.

09:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:52 Speaker 1 And my father said, "I'll show you" when we were driving up Bathurst. We got through, we drove through the night, so we got, we got to Bathurst here, like 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. "I'll show you the, where it is." My aunt lived up north. He said, "Well, you'll come tomorrow, we'll go to yeshiva." I remember that seer, we drove up, and the dorm was right next to the, right next to the building, like across the street. It was 5:00 in the morning and there was a bocher, who now lives in Toronto, Shomberg Goldberg. He was standing over his Gemara learning. He was up the whole night. Like, still 5:00 AM, he was still learning. I was like, "What's this boy doing learning at 5:00 in the morning?" It was, like, still such a foreign idea. Then I came down for Shabbos, for Friday. I met my old chaverim, learned some mitzvoyim with the bochurim. And then Rabbi Wagner, he invited me to the Purim farbrengen. Now, again, Lubavitch yeshiva wouldn't know what farbrengen was. Purim farbrengen, for sure not. So in my head, Purim farbrengen was like Purim sudde.

10:55 Speaker 2 Right.

10:56 Speaker 1 So I asked my father, "Can I go to the Purim farbrengen?" He's like, "I can take you there, but I'm not gonna be able to get you back." This is pre-Uber days.

11:04 Speaker 2 Right.

11:05 Speaker 1 So I told Rabbi Wagner when I came for Shabbos, like before. I said, "My father says he can bring me, but he won't be able to bring me back." He's like, "No problem, I'll bring you back." I'm like, "Okay, we'll be for an hour by this farbrengen, and, uh, we'll go, he'll drive me back." Like, it was totally, uh, beyond my scope and beyond the idea what that might look like. So I come to this farbrengen, and it's, like, not going anywhere. It's o-one hour, two hours, and more and more and more. Rabbi Wagner is completely not in the matzav to drive anyone back. And then now it's, like, 3:00 AM. I'm like, "I have never sat by a farbrengen till 3:00 AM," and everyone's jumping and dancing, but I still have to get home, 'cause I, I'm not sleeping in the dorm. So I went to Rabbi Wagner, I'm like, "How am I gonna get home?" He's like, "Don't worry, I'll drive you home." I was like, "Okay." And then his brother, who became my brother-in-law, Dov Wagner, he was there, and he said, "Do not let my brother drive you home. I'll pay for your taxi. My brother is not driving you home." And that was my first farbrengen in Yeshivas Lubavitch, Toronto.

12:12 Speaker 2 Wow.

12:14 Speaker 1 By the next year, at the end of the year when we came to Yeshivat Gedola, I was certain that that's where I wanted to go after such a forum for farbrengen.

12:21 Speaker 2 Wow.

12:22 Speaker 1 And, um, you know, I was there for two years. Two amazing, amazing years, eye-opening years in Limud, in Hasidus, in Hasidishkeit, in Hashkafa, on so many, so many levels. Then two years in Altera. I was in Altera Samach, Samach Aleph. And when it came time to go on Shlichus, it was almost a given that I would be going back. I didn't have to ask, and it was like we were like the first official big chutzah of a bochurim. We came back for two years of Shlichus, Samach Beis, Samach Gimel, and then Samach Daled. I was in '70. I got married Samach He. Now, in between all these years, every summer from when I was in Yeshivat Gedola, that means four years Yeshivat Gedola, two years of Shlichus, and the summer of '70, I was a madrich of Talmidim. Learning teacher, learning director, but it was all in the world of Mesivta or young zal age bochur. That was what I ended up doing. I was two years in Portland, Oregon. They had a Yeshivas Kallahs where Rabbi Yaakov Wagner was there one summer with us.

13:36 Speaker 2 Yeah. Interesting.

13:37 Speaker 1 And Rabbi Fischel Aster was the Rosh Yeshiva one other year. And that was really my world. But like any other younger man who goes through the Lubavitch system and b- drinks the Kool-Aid, as they say, it was a dobra chi posture that I'm not gonna be in Chinuch, and I'm only gonna go on Shlichus, even if that means, like, moving to where there's no Jews.

14:00 Speaker 2 Right.

14:00 Speaker 1 But I have to be a Shliach.

14:01 Speaker 2 I mean, there's no Chinuch.

14:03 Speaker 1 I mean, there's no Chinuch. I mean, the Sinas Nes. You know, and I'm not saying it in a derogatory way, but that was sort of the Chinuch that I was given, and it was almost... I remember, like, m- the Mechannchmata apologized for being in Chinuch. Like, you know, whatever, like they're... Like, whatever, we had to be in Chinuch, which to me, you know, in hindsight is crazy. I can imagine Rabbi Akiva Wagner, if he wasn't in Chinuch, I mean, worlds, families, worlds of people were touched by him. It's like-

14:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:35 Speaker 1 But again, that was the, the mindset, and it was just the pastures. It wasn't like a question, debate. It wasn't even a thing. And we got very close. My wife and I went, because I told you I was two summers in Portland, Oregon, so I asked the Shliach, Rabbi Moshe Wilhelm, and his wife, Rebbetzin Devori, which I'm very close with ad diem as a, if they have a place in Oregon. Like, I was ready to go anywhere. It wasn't like... Um, and he said, "Yeah, there's a capital of Oregon, Salem, Oregon." And we're looking for a Shliach. "You wanna come to Salem, Oregon?" I came with my wife, spent three, four days there. To me, that was just fine. Salem, Oregon, anywhere. My wife's like anywhere United States.

15:16 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

15:17 Speaker 1 Even if it's the end, end of United States, compared that the other offers were like Melbourne, Vietnam, and, uh, Brazil, so-

15:24 Speaker 2 Right

15:24 Speaker 1 ... Salem, Oregon sounded just fine. And all of that mattered at this point is a broche from the Rebbe. And I wrote a letter to the Rebbe saying, "Oh, you know, Mit Hashem, we're moving into Salem, Oregon." And we got a, I got an answer from the Rebbe that, "You've been very successful in the past, Ben Noar American, with dealing with the American youth." 'Cause basically, as I told you, that's what I've been dealing with.

15:47 Speaker 2 Yeah. Summers.

15:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. "And you should just be mamshich in this kav, mamshich in this direction, and hatslacha."

15:56 Speaker 2 Wow.

15:56 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe said it's gonna bring out in you kochos that you never knew that you had. You know-

16:01 Speaker 2 Wow

16:01 Speaker 1 ... this was the answer. So all of a sudden was a shift, like, okay, now Salem, Oregon, Shlichus, Chinuch. And at the beginning I looked into some options that I would be working in a Mosad, and it didn't work out, and it just did- different options didn't sound right, didn't feel right, until I, I said that with my father,

16:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

16:26 Speaker 1 ... And I remember him telling me, he says, "Gershon, if you were ready to open your own Mosad Beis Chabad, so why don't you take that merit, that vision, that if the Rebbe wants you in Chinuch, open a new Mosad."

16:36 Speaker 2 Wow.

16:36 Speaker 1 You always have... Everyone goes to the system, has their ideas how they're gonna change the system, and that things are gonna be different. So take that energy, take that vision, take that passion, that determination, and go for it. I was like, "But where? Where do you just open up a Mosad? Like, how does that work?" And I didn't even know. Like, I sort of knew that he's right, but had no... It's like oidis without kailim, so what do I do with this? What do I do with this? So I was sitting in Kollel, and a younger man in Kollel who's a friend of mine, Rabbi Gavriel Levin, he came over to me, and he's like, "Oh, Gershon, what, what are your thoughts?" And he said that, um... I said, "I'm looking to go into Chinuch, but I'm looking to, like, sort of independent." He's like, "Perfect." He said, "I have... My shver is Rabbi Shlomo Kamelson. And in Tofshim Lamed He, which today is we're in Tofshim Pe, about 50 years ago, he has a rav from the Rebbe. They opened the Yeshiva, Shnas Chinuch. It closed very shortly after, but he's been dreaming of reopening the yeshiva, always. I'm sure if you call him, you could work out a shutfas, figure something out." S- And I asked him, "What are you doing?" He said he's going to teach in the Yeshiva in Postville.

17:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

17:52 Speaker 1 Now, I wanna say something. Again, it's not good, it's not bad. So I said, "Why don't you go to Cincinnati?" He's like, "The..." He said, "I'm going to Postville. Rabbi Rubashkin is there. It's financially stable. I know that everything there is gonna be set for the foreseeable future." You know, you don't know that what's gonna happen in two years from now, the whole Agri raid, et cetera.

18:11 Speaker 2 It was Mamish. Oh, yeah, Samach Vav probably.

18:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Wow.

18:15 Speaker 1 So, like, you know, you think you're going somewhere 'cause that's where it's gonna be stable, set for the foreseeable future.

18:20 Speaker 2 Wow.

18:21 Speaker 1 No, I'm not, I'm not saying anything's wrong with that perspective-

18:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, mm-hmm

18:24 Speaker 1 ... but it's just like the irony of, of life.

18:26 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:27 Speaker 1 Um, so I called Rabbi Kalmanson. I remember, like, I called him up. I really had no yachas with him before. He's like, "Yeah, Gershon." And he actually had a Semikhah program there at the time. He's like, "I have a building." It's the same building that the bochurim were 50 years before. I mean, then it was 30 years before.

18:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:45 Speaker 1 But in Tof Shelom Hav. And it has a dormitory, it has a kitchen, it has a dining room. "I'll give it to you for free," in other words, no rent. "I'll pay the utilities. Your job is to have talmidim, pay the staff." In other words, that will be the clear divide. I'll take care of the building, and there will be beds, there'll be chairs, tables. Everything will be set up for you to walk in, and you'll have to get the talmidim, you have to pay the staff, the cook, the food, like, uh, everything that will be on your end, which was a big berakhah.

19:13 Speaker 2 Right.

19:13 Speaker 1 Which was a big berakhah. And he said, "Why don't you come down and check it out?" I came and my flight was delayed. I was here only a few hours. I guess better that way, you know? The less you know, the better. My wife, she was expecting our first son, so she didn't even come. So I came back, I said, "Looks great, Cincinnati." And then Elul of Nisan Tof Shin Samach Vav, we signed the contract-

19:36 Speaker 2 Wow

19:36 Speaker 1 ... and the yeshiva opened for the Shnas Limudim that year, Samach Vav.

19:42 Speaker 2 It opened already then, Samach Vav?

19:43 Speaker 1 The next Elul.

19:45 Speaker 2 Right. Okay, fine, Elul, yeah, yeah.

19:46 Speaker 1 I and I were looking for a partner, and, uh, my wife is a Simpson, so her cousin, Rabbi Leo Simpson, who was then teaching Alter Moshiach Sifta. I heard that he was thinking of leaving. I asked him if he wants to join on this journey to the really the unknown. Baruch Hashem, now it's 20th year, 20 years later.

20:02 Speaker 2 Wow.

20:03 Speaker 1 And, uh, here we are.

20:05 Speaker 2 Wow. Okay, so let's touch on the, the... W- uh, not that this whole podcast is gonna be for Rabbi Wagner, Rabbi Cuba Wagner, but w- uh, from what I understand, he was a big, um, figure in your life in terms of Hadrakah and-

20:21 Speaker 1 Still is

20:21 Speaker 2 ... still is. Exactly. Um, so let's say, so now you're opening up a yeshiva just like he did. I'm sure you spoke a lot with him actually, not just, uh, like remembering things from when you were a bocher. I'm sure you spoke to him then. What was, like, the driving force and message with which you opened the yeshiva, and maybe if, and maybe it has nothing to do with Rabbi Wagner, but, uh, assuming it has w- with to do with Rabbi Wagner, what was the f- what was the driving like... Meaning, yeah, I mean, you, you wanna open up a... You wanna go on Shlichus, you wanna open up a Mosud, right? Everything you said, like, your, your, your merits, et cetera, to open up something new. But what was the specific, like, mindset with which you were opening up the yeshiva?

21:05 Speaker 1 So there's two things. Every time you open up a Mosud, people ask, "Ma Nishma?" Like, "What do we need you for?"

21:11 Speaker 2 Right.

21:11 Speaker 1 In other words, you have to justify your existence.

21:13 Speaker 2 Right.

21:14 Speaker 1 We have Baruch Hashem Mosdus. Again, and every time, every Mosud that opens, and that true with every business. Like, what are you needed for?

21:21 Speaker 2 Sure.

21:22 Speaker 1 What makes you different? Why would you make... stand out? So for certain Mosdus, they say, "We cater to local boys. That makes us different."

21:28 Speaker 2 Right.

21:28 Speaker 1 Now, this community needs a certain... needs a school. Well, that- that itself makes you different, makes you needed. Other Mosdus, we cater to a certain type of person, whatever that is, so that makes you different. Um, when we opened up here in Cincinnati, it was with a very, very clear shita, and that is that we were going to be a Mosud, that Vayominu Bashem Uvemoshia Avdo was going to be our, our life, and it's gonna be the driving force of the institution. And, you know, that when the Rebbe says that Arvoid Is Lakabbol Panim Shir Tikeino, that's in our logo. That is from day one. That is gonna be not just, uh, an idea, that's gonna be the essence of the Chinuch that we give. Because the way I understood it then, and even understand it much better today, that this is the essence of... It changes the Chinuch. It's a whole different mindset in everything that we do. That was the... Now, the truth is that in Yeshivat Toronto, I felt that from Rabbi Wagner very much. So there's the theme and there's the Oifn. But in Toronto, there were other Manias Vikovim, which I'm not going to get into, which sort of made that mission statement a little bit more concealed than even Rabbi Wagner would have wanted. And you have to live in realities, whatever the realities were. But I wasn't going to be shackled by those realities, and that was going to be... Now, now, but that in itself is just

23:00 Speaker 1 an idea, but there also has to be a Oifn Achinuch. No one's coming for an idea. There's gonna be a passion, but it's going to have to be the sh- the proof has to be in the pudding. It has to be in the ground. And I would definitely say that I got a lot of Hadrakah from him. He visited here many times. You know, Kama Veka Mamapamim.

23:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

23:21 Speaker 1 He came here to Cincinnati. He was very, very proud. He always encouraged every time more and more. But, you know, there are many, many things that I took from him, I take from him. Now, I wish I can take his natural gifts, learning and things, and knowledge, but those are not things that you... They don't, you know, they don't just get given out, and it's not even hereditary, you know? It's knowledge. You have to work on your own. But the Oifn, the s- the, the way to go about things, the, the taking attention and care of each individual bocher, not just their Ruchnius. In his own way, he very much cared about the Gashnius of each bocher.

24:00 Speaker 2 Sure.

24:01 Speaker 1 Like, more than one time, I was like, bocher needs something, he's cooking to give the guy... I mean, in his own way, he was like, he really, really invested in the, in the bocher as being a person, the whole person. Um, his Farbrengens, that, that to me was something that, like, brought me fire. He didn't come... I say, sometimes people think a Farbrengen and a Shiur, the only difference is, is they're food.

24:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

24:26 Speaker 1 The Mashpia comes and gives these lofty ideas.

24:28 Speaker 2 Right.

24:29 Speaker 1 Rabbi Wagner worked hours and hours of bringing it down, stories, being creative, and sometimes making it very personal to his audience, and really, really expressing that personal care and the application of what they're being learned, and that is something to me which was tremendous, tremendous. I benefited a lot, and I try to bring that to the Mosud over here. Um, the fact that the ks-- we should feel... Now, there's a Yoyim that says, one of the Chidushim of Siddish is the Rosh Yeshiva used to be-- Elant used to be lonely, and the Talmidim used to be lonely. We can Farbreng what that actually means. Siddish revealed and that the Rosh Yeshiva is not lonely and the Talmidim are not lonely. But on a very, very simple level that, that the Talmidim should develop a personal relationship, not respect, but endearment by the Anhala, which was to him like unique. It was whoever I was before, teachers, the idea was they taught and they left, and that's what we expected. It wasn't, "Well, I have a relationship with them." No, here was someone that cared about me personally. And Rabbi Wagner was very unique because he somehow was able to hold on to people that other people, like, wouldn't even think of. Like, Dafka, these people were like, "Oh, who's gonna give them attention?" He gravitated, and he held, and hours and hours and hours invested his Kohelet. And I saw him from so many different angles. Sai as a Talmid and as a Shliach and

26:06 Speaker 1 working for him as a Shliach in the summer. And I saw his, his care and his, you know, selflessness on so, so many levels that, you know, there's couldn't have been a better example of what a Mechanech is supposed to be. Again, everyone has their style.

26:26 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

26:26 Speaker 1 And as a matter of fact, in Mesifta, I very much believe that the old style of the Toronto Zohar, which any night can be a six-hour Farbrengen, or any day can be a Farbrengen, is not exactly the open to go in a Mesifta setting.

26:41 Speaker 3 Right.

26:42 Speaker 1 But the fact that I know when I was at Talmid, I looked forward to going back and being in the Moises. Like, I never had that with any other Moises that I was in, I wanted to go back and visit. When I hear by us, the Talmidim wanna come back and visit, and no, that in itself says, "Oh, they realize that this place is where they, where they didn't just learn, where they were built." And that's, you know, that I learned from him in a tremendous way.

27:06 Speaker 3 Right. I think in a broader sense that, uh, you started saying about the, the Rosh Yeshivas at Elant, the-- And, and maybe this is what you were touching on, it is fascinating that the example there is Rosh Yeshiva. You know, not the, I mean, whatever equivalent they would have of Mashpia in the olden days, Roiv or whatever. Rosh Yeshiva, which is purely supposed to be just for learning, just, uh, just the Nigla, you know, and, and that's where we say is, is, is Nit Elant. Um, but, but in general, like, the Vart of Chassidis is, is-- And this is really, I mean, uh, uh, the topic of, of the podcast Bechalal, that Chassidis is not something to just learn. Chassidis is something to live. The, the, the whole idea of, of, you know, even these kind of things like, uh, like care and love, right? There's a certain sense where it comes out of a person's personality. Uh, and, you know, some people have that kind of personality. I, I, I think I could talk as a Wagner that that's not Dafka on the top, uh, five things of our personality, of, of , of, of, of loving people and showing them, uh, a lot of love and care. It came more from his, from his, uh, his mission of Chassidis.

28:20 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And I tell people, and they don't believe me, that he was naturally an introvert.

28:24 Speaker 3 Yeah. Of course.

28:25 Speaker 1 In other words, for him going out from himself for the Farbrengens, that's why I take a little Chaim, but it was not his natural-- Certain people are naturally outgoing. They're, like, easy going to a crowd, and they just blend in, and everything's great, and it, it's natural. Rabbi Wagner, every time that he went to a Bucher, it was a, it was an avoid, and it came 'cause he believed in it, the Kohen Chassidis, and he drilled in it where now in Parshas Toldus. You know, in Parshas Toldus, you know, there's a Rashi that is ingrained on my heart and soul from-- I must have heard it a hundred times, screaming at the top of his lungs, "Zevo Pardesov Shel Yitzchak." You know, from the Kaspe Bizov of Shel Avi Melech, the pride of being a Chassid, the Ashreinu Matev Chalkeinu. He instilled-- Now, I was a little about Chabacher, but this idea that there's nothing like it in the world, there's nothing you want better in your life than to be Ibergem Sumleven. So it shined by him. He yelled it. His Neshamah came out. Like, I tremble when they-- You know, some people are Chitas. Some people are Zevo Pardesov. By me, it's Zevo Pardesov. It's the whole-- It's my whole Neshamah is-

29:40 Speaker 3 Just last night, I was with, uh, by a shared. There's other, uh, another group of alumni from a later year than you, and it came up because just last night, it was all Zevo Pardesov. Like, everyone knew, yeah.

29:51 Speaker 1 This is-

29:52 Speaker 3 Yeah

29:52 Speaker 1 ... you know, the pride, Ashreinu, and the, that there's nothing more Glikik from life, so Ibergem Sumleven. 'Cause it goes against, like, why would I wanna give myself up? Like, why is that the best life? But to him, not only did he live it, he shined it, and he, he lived it in a joyous way. To g- in other words, let's deal with a certain reality. To many people, Chassidishkeit means Farbrechkeit. And like, oh, man, I want nothing to do with this. I mean, if you respect it, it's nice, but that's-- I wanna live a happy life. I wanna live a good life. I wanna be normal. I wanna be social. I wanna have a life. And if it means just this restrictive environment where it's just more a Shchayleh and just-- Good for you, not for me. All of a sudden, you see someone that's smiling, that there's nothing he likes better in the world than this. It's like, wow.

30:45 Speaker 3 Right. So that-- I, I think that's a very important idea. I mean, uh, uh, for sure in Chinuch and, uh, you know, that it's a no-brainer to say about Chinuch. But I think Bechalal, in, in, in general, even if you're thinking about the Anash or, or children or among themselves, Chass-- I mean, we all know that Chassidim were called the Shreileche, right? It w- it's- The, the way to live Chassidus. In other words, when, when we, when we learn a maimer and it's about either achdus or emunah or simcha or shlach haprates or seder hishtalshelus or anything, the, the-- what, what, what's really the point of what, of what we're trying to, to learn? What are we try- what are we trying to b- what mindset are we trying to build in our minds with what Chassidus is teaching us? And obviously, this doesn't have to be necessarily one answer, although it could be emes, aveilah, ela, you know, ele v'ovad, et cetera. Like, of course, and, and, and we probably need to always go back to that yesodidim if it gets lost along the way, then something's wrong.

31:42 Speaker 1 Correct.

31:43 Speaker 3 But, uh, not just as a philosophy 'cause emes, aveilah, ela is Vayber philosophy which then needs to be translated. But going straight to the translation or going straight to the, to the application of all these concepts in Chassidus, I mean, what would you say? What would you say like-- what, what is the, the message that Chassidus is trying to give from any sense? In other words, a guy who-- a, a person who's living a Chassidisha life, how is his life gonna look on a practical level because of the Chassidus that he's learning?

32:12 Speaker 1 So I wanna tell you one of the most amazing insights I got about the power of Chassidus. You know, when you're, when you're born to something, you know, you sort of, you sort of just take it for granted. See, there's two stories that I personally experienced that really opened up like what's, what is the Rabbeinu-- what did the Rabbeinu actually want from Chassidus? So when I was in Lubavitch Yeshiva, there was a bochur in our class. He came from a family which has Lubavitch relatives, roots, but his family officially was not Lubavitch. Some brothers actually joined Lubavitch because the father and mother didn't have money, so they sent them to Lubavitch Yeshiva, Ocean Parkway. When you have no money, go to Lubavitch Yeshiva.

32:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:57 Speaker 1 And Rashag took everyone, and this a brilliant boy. Uh, you know, very, very special. Family had a lot of personal tzaras.

33:05 Speaker 3 Mm.

33:05 Speaker 1 There was divorce and one of the parents died. There was a lot going on in the family itself. This boy is a brilliant boy. Today, he's a doctor. And he was in our class through mesivta. Then he went university, he went other places, and pretty much off my radar for a long time. And we're talking about for years. Then I moved to Cincinnati. I remember it was like the first or second year I was here, and it was chof cheshvan, and you start thinking about the old timirim, the pre timirim, the Rashag. And I was like, "Well, what's going on with this boy?" They said, "Well, the boy's a talmid. Three years in this, in..." And I reached out to a friend, and he says, "Oh, did you know that this-- he's finally getting married?" I'm like, "That's amazing. Can I have his number?" So I call him up. I'm like, "Oh, so and so, mazel tov." He says, "How are you? Long time no speak." We schmoozed a little bit. And I said, "So tell me, what's the plan for the wedding?" And it was, so to speak, a typical modern Orthodox wedding. So I asked him, "You know, in the schuss of, uh, Timchetimim," I was in the chof ov mode.

34:07 Speaker 3 Chof cheshvan.

34:08 Speaker 1 Chof cheshvan. "So let's-- maybe, maybe you go to the chuppah without the Rebbe's nigun." "Oh, sounds, you know, the Rebbe's nigun. Sounds right. I'll ask the kallah. Maybe we'll go without the Rebbe's nigun." I said, "Well, how about the maimer? How about learning the maimer? And I'll learn with you b'chavru. Ev- whether you say it or not, you know, we learn the maimer in honor of the chasuna." And he says, "The maimer Chassidus I won't learn." I was like, "Why not?" Like... And he was very resistant. And again, I was-- I couldn't imagine why he's so resistant to a maimer Chassidus. He says, "Do you know what a maimer Chassidus is?" I'm like, "I think so." Like, "You tell me." He says, "You don't know what a maimer is. Every time you learn a maimer, you walk away from the maimer seeing that the world is bright, full of light, everything is good, positive, optimistic."

34:55 Speaker 3 Wow.

34:55 Speaker 1 "My life does not reflect that. I can't get myself to learn a maimer."

34:59 Speaker 3 Wow.

34:59 Speaker 1 I said, "Oh, I wish I learned a maimer like that." Like, oh, that's what's supposed to happen when you learn a maimer. You're supposed to see... In other words, it's not supposed to be an intellectual idea. You're actually supposed to live, act, and see the world different. You know, talking about seeing the world different, I saw a beautiful letter from the Rebbe, which I take a lot in Chinuch, where the Rebbe says, "Tachtus v'zangut is also about your own kids and about your own talmidim."

35:21 Speaker 3 Mm.

35:22 Speaker 1 I don't think it's about a situation. No, if you actually tachtus v'zangut about your kids and your talmidim, they'll feel it. They'll, they'll build off your good mashavas. But I was like, "Wow, that's such a fresh perspective on Chassidus." I wish, like... And from then on, like when I looked at a maimer, I'm like, "Am I walking away with what he's afraid he's gonna find?"

35:42 Speaker 3 Mm.

35:43 Speaker 1 That was like one story which really resonated with me, really changed the way I approached the maimer or Peirke Avot. Another story happened when I was in Toronto zal. Now, his name is Shmuel Wagner. You're well aware that your zayde, Rav Nachum Wagner, alav hashalom, his yahrtzeit is the 10th of Nisan, which meant for us as talmidim that Seder couldn't finish at that time before Dalet. You need the five, six minyanim.

36:05 Speaker 3 Right.

36:06 Speaker 1 So we-- Seder was always till a few days into Nisan. And I remember one year, I think it was my second year in zal, but maybe I was on shlich. I don't remember exactly what year it was. Like, Beis Nisan, a Polisher Chassidishing, a man walked in, Seder nigle time. He sat in the corner, in the back of zal where it leads to the steps. There used to be a phone there, but it closed. But there's offices. He sat in the corner, and he sat there for hours and learned, came for the seder, and he left. This is Beis Nisan, Gimel Nisan. Dalet Nisan, he came. He had his- I remember he had his little lunch bag, you know, little thing. Ate. He sat for hours a day in the zal. And it was the day when we were leaving or whatever day it was. Heh Nisan. I don't know exactly what day it was that we were leaving. I said, "I gotta talk to this guy. He's coming." So I approached him. I said, "What brings you here?" He says he's learning in a Chassidishe kollel in Yerushalayim, Eretz Yisrael, and his in-laws live here, and he wanted to learn a Chassidishe yeshiva. If he's gonna be in town, he has a few days. He asked where is the Chassidishe yeshiva. I said, "Uh, go Lubavitch Yeshiva." "So I'm here." So I said, "So what were your impressions?" And he told me something which, like, really, really resonated. He said, "I'm not one to

37:23 Speaker 1 say that at the end of this month, Bochum are not restless. I know what it means. I was a Bocher. And in all yeshivas, I'm not gonna judge and say, 'Oh, it's not about yeshiva.' And I was there for three days, and Bochum are all over the place." He says, "First of all, a lot of yeshivas don't even have Seder now."

37:39 Speaker 3 Right.

37:39 Speaker 1 "And it's the end of this month." He says, "That's-- You're not gonna-- I'm not going to be dumping on Lubavitch because the last three days, all yeshivas are like this." But he's like this, "But I was hoping that a yeshiva that has Seder Chassidus Bocher and Erev would, like, be different than other yeshivas."

37:55 Speaker 3 Hmm.

37:59 Speaker 1 That was what he said. He said, "The fact-- It's the same, but I was actually hoping that a yeshiva that has Chassidus Bocher and Erev would, like, be different." I said, "Oh, it's gerecht." You know, that's really... In other words, the Rabbeim weren't Moise Nefesh to open up Tomchei Tmimim just so we should learn more Chassidus. It was that the whole day should be different. You walk into this yeshiva, you're like, "This is a different Moise." In other words, Chassidus Shechinuch, Chinuch with Chassidus and Chassidus, it's not just do you sell a few stories. It's not like a spice and a pepper to the salad, you know? It's supposed to be nikker that it's oif and acher legamri. Like, this is a different product. When I saw Rabbi Wagner Tanazel for the first time, this is not Lubavitch yeshiva with a little bit of another Fabregin. This is like a different religion. It's like a different, wow. Like, you walk in, you're like, you know, the first time you s- imagine somebody's, like, walking on all fours, and the first time they see someone walking on their feet, they're like, "Oh." Like, there's an- there's another way to live, something different. Like, that's how I felt when I saw Rabbi Wagner and the Chevre. It was like, this was something else.

39:11 Speaker 3 Hmm.

39:11 Speaker 1 And that's how someone should really feel when they walk into a Chassidus Shemoise or Lubavitch Shemoise that's being Neschanach Al Pishtus Achsidus. They don't say, "Oh, it's just like another yeshiva, just a little plus. Well, it has a different flavor to it. It has a Chassidus flavor." If that's what they're walking away with, then we're not being successful.

39:28 Speaker 3 Right.

39:29 Speaker 1 And on a deeper level, it's also what you're talking about living with Moshiach. The Rebbe says that, uh, Artiga b'Mashiach el tinageshu b'sravan, that they see Moshiach. Moshiach, when the Rebbe said that we have to live Moshiach, if the only difference is, oh, it has a little style different, Chinuch with the Rebbe's view of Moshiach has to be a whole different Chinuch completely too. Not even a step higher and deeper than what was Neschanach for all the generations of Chassidim, because it's a different level.

39:58 Speaker 3 So, Taichais, well, what's the Chinuch of, with Moshiach?

40:04 Speaker 1 The Chinuch of Moshiach has many, many aspects. The Rebbe Taichais, I mean, a lot of people don't take this, but the Rebbe opened up a channel where the Rebbe said that the Chinuch of Moshiach means that you can actually educate children to be excited about the Eibishter without Manas Lekabo Pras.

40:22 Speaker 3 Right.

40:23 Speaker 1 You know, this is a Mugedek Hasichas the Rebbe spoke about Fabregins. And somehow, I can't say that, myself included, do we really trust the Rebbe on this?

40:32 Speaker 3 Hmm.

40:32 Speaker 1 The Rebbe says, "No. Today, we've opened up the channel that kids before Moshiach."

40:35 Speaker 3 Right.

40:36 Speaker 1 But much more than that is that the, the purity, that des- despite the distraction, the optimism, the, the sensitivity that the Neshamah's life and Neshamah's real, and that you could tap into that, and the kid could have the Kohech. Today, a lot of people, they, so to speak, gave up on the generation. If we're not going down, that's good. Like, the kid-- There's no real goals, like, oh, the kids are gonna excel. And our goal is the kids shouldn't leave the Moises. What they're doing there, like, we have no aspirations of actual development growth. Like, that's already, like, beyond the bonus. Parents just wanna hear that the kids are happy or quasi-frum. They're not looking to leave is showing that, like, that has been set the bar. Like, the idea that the kids might actually be better than, uh... But it's not true. The Rebbe believes in our children. These are the Neshamas of Tzimtz Hashem, the Neshamas of Yemais of Moshiach. The, the Koheches that they have is way beyond what, uh, what we actually believe. And we, we have to believe that they have it.

41:40 Speaker 3 Sure.

41:40 Speaker 1 And also, and also, the-- I'm a very strong believer, if you're asking me one of the core Yesodis. They're one of my driving, you know, Chinuch statements and Chinuch life. You know, the way I go about Chinuch. The Rebbe says that in the Sikha V'era, Taf Shin Bet.

42:05 Speaker 3 V'era? V'era.

42:06 Speaker 1 V'era, V'era, Taf Shin Bet. There's a small paragraph. The Rebbe says, "L'Yosef, I wanna give you an idea." That the idea of Akara, that the recognition that at any moment, the Rebbe's gonna come in, walk into this room, and check on your-- where have you been doing in your Avoda, which should be Ma'ir by you the feeling to do your Avoda B'shleimus.

42:28 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

42:29 Speaker 1 In other words, the-- what's the Rebbe telling us? Just a nice idea that we should know about. But when you're Mechanech yourself, your children, and the Talmidim, that we are living on the threshold of Gulen. At any moment, the Rebbe's gonna be in the Skala. So what does that mean? That means you're-- if at any moment the Rebbe's gonna be in the Skala, you have to be wearing Shabbos clothes. Now, Shabbos clothes, I don't just mean wearing a Kapota or... I'm talking about your Machshava D'Ibra Maisa have to be on a different level. You have to be wearing Shabbos clothes.

43:02 Speaker 3 Right.

43:02 Speaker 1 And that has to be the demand, the expectation of ourselves. In other words, the knowledge at any moment, the Rebbe's in the Skala, however words you use to bring that out, everyone, Kolech Habafi and Yonai, has to be an integral part of the way we're Mechanech. Because that, the Rebbe says, brings us to live a life of being mashlem our avoda in a way of shleimus. And it makes us live on a higher standard. We all know that when the bell rings in Crown Heights, between the two bells, things start moving on a different level. You start dressing, acting on a different way, and that has to be the urgency and the, the level on which we aspire and which we hold ourselves to can't just be a vachadikeh. You know, what was good for the rest of the week is not good for Shabbos and Shabbos.

43:53 Speaker 3 Right. So the, the first thing you said about that Mashiach, the, the, the... You know, not just to, um, go through the system or go through life, you know, uh, with a very low bar, but Mashiach Oisios would be to actually look forward to something, to actually have a, a gr- a progress and a goal. It's very similar to what you were saying in the, uh, with the message of the story with your friend, the, the meimar, the, uh, the chassidic meimar, of that, that Hasidus is full of light. Hasidus is, is, is positivity. Is, uh... There's, there's actually something good happening here. It's not just, it's not just a, another mode of living through life. And you're saying that that's, uh, that's Oisios Mashiach. So in general, both of the stories that you said, you said these are two stories that, like, in your mind are, like, you know, give you a glimpse of what Hasidus has to offer, so to speak. What's very interesting, what I found very interesting is that both of those stories, they don't touch on a practical, you know, um, relevant, uh, uh, sorry, not relevant. I mean, like, um, a mashia stika, a tangible action. Like, Hasidus shows you how to daven better even, which is already a big thing. Hasidus shows you how to be-- have midos toivos, which of course are important, and of course there's a... These two stories both brought out how a person was expecting or, or, or verbalized that Hasidus, it, it

45:18 Speaker 3 puts you heller. It puts you into a whole different life, a whole different mindset, a whole different, uh, way of viewing the whole world.

45:25 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

45:25 Speaker 3 Right. From there, of course, everything needs to be different. It's a, it's an in atzmi. It's a, it's more-

45:31 Speaker 1 Which in simple words of the Tanya from the Shaar B'lad, the way Hasidim explain what does it mean, the difference between ktzar v'arucha and arucha v'ktzar. One of the biurim that it's basic pirush in Tanya is that mussar will tell you how to be an anav, how to work on this specific midah. You're bitachon, you're anav, you're kas. These are the symptoms.

45:53 Speaker 3 Yeah.

45:53 Speaker 1 And it, it's very important to deal with your symptoms, and that's ktzar 'cause it's a direct focus on the actual midah. But it's arucha because it didn't change your essence. You've worked on the pratim. We're not learning Hasidus just to have a better learning hashkafa, this thing. Hasidus is arucha v'ktzar. It's changing the whole mindset and the whole existence of the person. Wh-why am I here in this world? The moment that changes, when you actually can reach the arucha, automatically the ktzar, automatically the midos are the hesed, right? The moment you find out that you're a ben melech, the moment you find out that you're really the prince, so then I don't have to tell you how to dress and how to speak and how to act. W- if I can convince you, not just convince you, bring out in you what you really are, then all of a sudden everything goes along with it.

46:50 Speaker 3 Right. And, a-a-a lechayim, that's the whole chidush of Hasidus Chabad, because it's Chabad. We're, we're tackling, we're, we're entering the, the body and the person, the whole, uh, psyche of the person through the Chabad, which is the most abstract and the most kal v'chomer objective thing which, which is by default gonna be a lot, uh, farther from the way the person's gonna live in his life.

47:12 Speaker 1 That's right.

47:13 Speaker 3 'Cause a lot of people know things and don't act like that.

47:14 Speaker 1 As a matter of fact, the Yemim says that tzniat hashem-

47:17 Speaker 3 Yeah

47:17 Speaker 1 ... avodat Hashem is getting Chabad to be your brain, which is kal v'chomer.

47:21 Speaker 3 Talking, uh, toit zachavi seichel, the kal v'chomer. The-- And, and at the same time, of course, Hasidus Chabad is focused on practical maaseh b'poel and, and, and, and what you're saying is that the, the, the light of Hasidus is the, the light of the meimar, the, the... Is that it's, it's giving all the whole life and the whole world a meaning which then needs to be translated into, into practical, into the, into the day-to-day. But it's not gribbling up with the day-to-day. It's uplifting the person a whole-

47:52 Speaker 1 Hundred percent. And that, I would say I got from Rabbi Kiv in Toronto. In other words, he didn't farbreng with me about, "So I want you to say your krias Shma better. I want you to do this better or that better," which I had a lot to improve. I had a lot to improve when I came. You know, I'm on a podcast. I probably shouldn't, uh, say all my, uh-

48:17 Speaker 3 Yeah

48:17 Speaker 1 ... stories, but it's just-

48:18 Speaker 3 This is called Vidui Beraver.

48:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. So just for the, for the audience to, to understand, because, you know, I'm here, I'm not sitting here just to say hi to Shmuly, which is always a pleasure. But really to share and that people should be aware, you know, we, we are real people that have real struggles. Just because someone is in a position today of leadership or chinuch, they think, "Oh, that, uh..." I struggle today, I struggled yesterday, and I'll struggle tomorrow.

48:45 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

48:45 Speaker 1 But give you a perspective. When I entered yeshiva, she was Livavosh Toronto. So if you're talking about grades, I always had good grades, you know. I wasn't... As a student, we were very good students in Livavosh Yeshiva. You know, I got good grades, hundreds on my tests. You know, those are intellectual pursuits. I could have studied chemistry, which I did, and biology, and learned the modikhoil. You know, you had-- you learned Hasidus, you learned the Gemara, you learned biology, chemistry, world history, mathematics. You know, it was all the same. And as a matter of fact, you know, I remember that literally the day before I went to yeshiva or two days before, you know, I was saying really goodbye to my Livavosh Yeshiva friends because I was going to Toronto. And like, so how did we, how did we say goodbye? So we went to Yankee Stadium to watch a double header game. You know, that was the way we... You know, if you-- anyone that knows the history of the '90s, this is 1996. They were winning every year.

49:38 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

49:38 Speaker 1 You know, it was, it was a very exciting time to be in New York at the time. And, you know, that was the way, like, we, uh... So Rabbi Wagoner, like, told me like, "Oh, you shouldn't be into sports, or you shouldn't watch games or even go to games." I didn't even knew, but that wasn't even the... When he gave just that you don't want anything else in life of being a Hasid. Like, why would you even want Olam HaZeh? Olam HaZeh is like you, you, you have the treasure. You are a treasure. You are a chayal of the Rebbe. You are everything. That's what I heard from him for months. So automatically, once I bought into it, and it It wasn't like one day, like-

50:16 Speaker 3 Right

50:16 Speaker 1 ... I did have a one-day story, but like, when like, you know, it occurred to me out of Fabrega one week. There was that one Fabrega and I-

50:22 Speaker 3 Mm

50:22 Speaker 1 ... I don't know for now, but it was like, when like ding dong, the light goes off, the mo- but the moment you buy into it, everything else falls apart. And just to give you an amazing... I remember I came home for Pesach, and I knew this is gonna be very, very difficult. You know, that for sure I'm going to, uh, they're gonna... My friends are gonna say, "Why don't you go come to the game?" I'll be like, "What? No." And they say, "What? 'Cause you were in Toronto for six months, you don't wanna talk to us?" Like- ... all that type of... And these are my friends, I live in Mazel. Like, it's not like one or the other. And I came home, and sure enough, you know, my friend said, "Oh, we bought you a ticket, and we're going out." The new season 'cause now it's the spring again.

51:01 Speaker 3 Right.

51:01 Speaker 1 So it's a new season. I said, "I'm not going." And they said, "Ah." And they gave me, like, a lot of guilt. Like, "You think you're better than me all of a sudden?" Blah, blah, blah. And like, that's not how I felt. Didn't feel better. Just didn't wanna be in that specific part of the world. I remember they called me up. "We're going. We're going to the train." Oh, they... "You sure?" "No." And I actually felt very, very lonely. Like, all of a sudden, like-

51:24 Speaker 3 Mm.

51:25 Speaker 1 I said, "Abish," like, "this is very hard for me. This is..." You know, for a boy 16, that's a nisayon. I mean, I've gone through much harder things in life since, but at that age and stage when you're still not grounded 100% in if this is really what I want, and friends are so important, and they are important. I said, "Abish," to, "Show me that this is... I'm doing the right thing. Give me that... I, I need a little bit someone to hold my shoulder here." Like an hour later, I get a call from my friend. He said, "Gesh, what'd you do?" I said, "Nothing." He says, "Do you know what just happened?" I said, "No." He says, "We all came to the game, and right before the game, a big beam of the stadium crashed, and they canceled the game."

52:02 Speaker 3 I hear.

52:02 Speaker 1 You could, you could, you could look up somewhere in the, in the, you know, in that year. I guess it's, uh... I was there, non, non ches. So I guess go check out-

52:11 Speaker 3 Yeah

52:11 Speaker 1 ... you know, the year. And like the whole stadium closed that night. Everyone who came had to go home.

52:15 Speaker 3 Wow.

52:16 Speaker 1 I said, "Okay." "What'd you do, Gesh?"

52:20 Speaker 3 That's crazy. But-

52:21 Speaker 1 But my point is that he didn't, like... It wasn't the nitty-gritty.

52:25 Speaker 3 Right.

52:25 Speaker 1 It was just like, "There's nothing you want better in life. You want a good life? Be a Hasid." And the pride, Hashem Ramateh. We would sing Hashem Ramateh Hokena for hours.

52:36 Speaker 3 Mm.

52:36 Speaker 1 And after Vechahtanu, we call on him, like... And that automatically, once, once you turn into that, your neshamah buys into that or it is revealed, the pratim come. So that, so then automatically, yeah, wanna learn Chitas, I wanna learn Hasidas, wanna learn Rambam, I wanna be more makushim, I wanna go extra nefshat hayam. Like it's not, it's no longer a burden. It's like this is what I wanna do. This is what I, this is what I'm doing.

52:59 Speaker 3 Right. The... It... I, I think this is a whole nother topic, but, um, the challenge, not, not, not the chaser, but the challenge is when, you know, the, the mashpia, let's just call it, even though he's a rosh yeshiva officially. But when the mashpia's giving you the makif, right? He's giving you the, the erin l'chayayis and the slavos. And then it takes, it takes that, that avodah to carry it into actuality and to carry into primius, to carry it into the... Yeah, because Hashem Ramateh Hokena, therefore I also need to know to right now do this and not do that, et cetera. And, uh, you know, of course that's the struggle of avodah, of life, of we all believe, we all know, and, uh, I mean, we, we need to be taught that.

53:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:43 Speaker 3 We need to, we need to be educated that this is, uh, Hashem Ramateh Hokena. But then to actually turn into pele mamesh. And what I'm hearing is that, uh, I mean, um, maybe he did, like, uh, Rabbi Wagner, maybe he did, um, guide you practically, not, not only when you went to him to ask him a question, but maybe, like, told you, like, you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that. But from what I understand, generally he didn't.

54:04 Speaker 1 Again, he wasn't everyone's personal mashpia.

54:06 Speaker 3 Right.

54:07 Speaker 1 To me, he was for many years, and I did speak to him about very personal things, and I got tremendous guidance from him on many, many personal things. But that wasn't, that wasn't his role with everyone.

54:18 Speaker 3 Right.

54:19 Speaker 1 Um, and even in that... In other words like this, the way I see it. If I know I wanna be here, so even if there's manias v'kovim, and I'm not always up to it, but I, I know where I'm heading. But if I really wanna be here and I'm being schlepped, so then I myself am resisting. It's like it's a double weight. It's like you, you're not gonna get here. If you yourself wanna be here, so you're... Enough manias v'kovim are gonna stop you from getting here.

54:50 Speaker 3 Right. So in other words, e- it, it's... At the end of the day, it's better to just give the makif and let the bachur, you know, figure it out by himself, so to speak. Obviously, with basic guidance, you know.

55:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, but there's also, I believe, and it's more and more I see it, which it wasn't spoken about so much when I was in yeshiva, as I... You know, more and more the power of Asei Lecha Rav Ki Psuta, like everyone having a personal mashpia. Like when I was in the sifter, we never spoke to a mashpia. Even in yeshiva gedola, this idea of spending official time speaking to your mashpia. I mean, I did a little bit. It wasn't... It was only as I got older, which I realized the importance, and not just because Rebbe, but Geheisen Asei Lecha Rav. But actually it's life-changing. And everyone has to have a mashpia. And because especially if you're a younger man, and especially you get older, you know, even if we wanna get there, there's a lot of other factors that will try to block that, and also how to apply it.

55:49 Speaker 3 Right.

55:50 Speaker 1 Meaning, and this is one thing which, you know, I really can't... If you're talking about openly and honestly, you know, not everyone's avodah is to remain a bachur their whole life. In other words, I don't even think that's a like, oh, the ultimate... One of the problems in the yeshiva system is sometimes you have these people that farbrengen whole day and night, and they are bakavod for life, and the bakavod might think that that is the, that is the ultimate goal.

56:22 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

56:22 Speaker 1 I don't think that's the ultimate. I think it's an avoda .

56:25 Speaker 3 Right.

56:27 Speaker 1 Um, so not just to have a mashpia, but a mashpia as you get older that knows the balance and that can, you know, help you because naturally a bakavod will feel guilty being limited. Because I wanna still be a bakavod, but no, that's not what Davis wants from me now.

56:45 Speaker 3 Right. So and, and that's where the knowing how to apply the different ideas of Hasidus which, and yeshiva are poshet, are exactly the way, literally, you know-

56:55 Speaker 1 Yeah

56:55 Speaker 3 ... learning Yemei HaMilah, and all of a sudden to translate it into, into actual and, uh, r- r- I mean, Rabbi Wagner was able to do that. He was able to, uh, to apply it to someone who's not-

57:07 Speaker 1 Again, he had his own avodas Hashem, but you'd be shocked how practical he could be.

57:14 Speaker 3 Right.

57:14 Speaker 1 You know, on some personal levels, which I'm not going to get into now.

57:17 Speaker 3 Right. No, even by farbrengens. Uh, even when he would talk about sushi, everyone knew exactly, you know, like everyone, every... He was a... He definitely understood a bakavod on, on, on a very simple level, on a very grubby level, so to speak. Like even, uh, even if he didn't know what sports equipment was, you know, like, uh,

57:36 Speaker 1 And, you know, there's-- He had so many, you know, tremendous sense of humor. In other words, not taking himself so serious even though he could've been.

57:48 Speaker 3 Right.

57:48 Speaker 1 The humor and the interaction and, you know, he was a man that also played an instrument, you know? You know, there's, there was a lot of parts of his life. Um, and a tremendous, tremendous, tremendous heart for, you know, for Klal Yisroel, for Pnei Yisroel. And by him, his Aseh Lecha Rav was very serious. Rabbi Levitansky's word was I remember I was in Toronto a summer when Levitansky landed there, like in the middle of the night. They woke up the whole dorm for farbrengen.

58:18 Speaker 3 Yeah.

58:18 Speaker 1 We were at Shabbos one summer, we were in Bloom-- uh, Bear Mountain, California. Spent Shabbos chazzan with Rabbi Levitansky. That was like-

58:25 Speaker 3 Mm

58:26 Speaker 1 ... couldn't get better.

58:27 Speaker 3 What, what it sounds like-- What... I'm trying to put everything together in my mind. The idea of Hasidus, and I think also having been by Rabbi Wagner in a maybe a little bit of a different stage, but the idea of Hasidus, the way you're seeing it, the way you brought out the two stories of the, of the meimer, of poshet being the galal oyer, and of poshet showing how the world is light and a person's life is light and positive, and, uh, you know, you said the maisa with the, with the, with the Pele Yisroel said like, "I would expect people learning Hasidus to-- that it should be a little bit different." The-- That, that is in a way the, you're saying the fundamental idea of what Hasidus is coming to give us. That's the inyan to focus on in Moshiach Chayus. That the, the... When a person learns Hasidus, the fir-- the first, the thing is it's, it's a whole different life. It's a whole different matzies. It's a whole different world, and therefore to be able to, uh, to translate it into-

59:25 Speaker 1 And I've-- If I can fit it in, we're just finishing.

59:27 Speaker 3 Yes.

59:27 Speaker 1 I just wanna finish with very important, I actually saw a recent letter of the Rebbe Rashab about it. Someone's gonna say, "Okay, I'm gonna learn Hasidus now, and every paragraph, is it changing me? Am I getting that oyer? Is it really there?"

59:43 Speaker 3 Right.

59:43 Speaker 1 That's not gonna work. You have to immerse yourself. You have to lose yourself in it. I remember there was Doc-- I was reading an article about Dr. Anoka. He was one of the first Baalei Teshuva that came from college campus in seventeen-seventy, and I think the Rebbe set him up with Rabbi Stolopchaski. I think so, but I could be wrong.

1:00:00 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:00:00 Speaker 1 And, um, Rebbe told him, "You do this for three months without asking."

1:00:03 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:00:04 Speaker 1 "Don't ask yourself, 'Am I getting it? Am I in? Am I-- Is it making a difference?'" Hasidus has to get absorbed, and, and that's really what happened when I was in Toronto, like six months just... It wasn't like, "Oh, today, did I get like better today? Am I changing? Am I changing?"

1:00:19 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:20 Speaker 1 You let your-- you lose yourself in it, and all of a sudden you find yourself seeing the world different-

1:00:25 Speaker 3 Right

1:00:25 Speaker 1 ... and acting different. And just, you know, that's... Don't, don't go into it as a self-help book and like judging yourself like, "Oh, did I get it?" Let yourself, let yourself get absorbed by it.

1:00:39 Speaker 3 Right. What you're saying is that it's a whole way of life, so you can't, uh... The, the entry point is everywhere, but there's no... It's not necessarily gonna be one def-- one moment that you have to test yourself, "Did I get it now?"

1:00:53 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:00:53 Speaker 3 Because it's inyan atzmi, so it's-

1:00:54 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:00:56 Speaker 3 Beautiful. Chaim.

1:00:56 Speaker 1 Chaim.

1:00:57 Speaker 3 Thank you for taking the time.