הבחור שלקח את החסידות ברצינות – הרב מאניס פרידמן

00:00 Speaker 1 That was not always the style of learning in Lubavitch.

00:04 Speaker 2 Right.

00:05 Speaker 1 The style was you, you chazar the Maimon, you memorize the Maimon. Who asked you to understand it? And why do you think you understand it? You're not even supposed to think that you understand it .

00:21 Speaker 2 Right.

00:22 Speaker 1 So this was a whole new way of... I think the Rebbe's Chidush.

00:29 Speaker 2 Right.

00:29 Speaker 1 That if you learn and you don't understand, you can't make a berakhah on berakhot hatahyuv . You didn't, you didn't fulfill anything. Learning means knowing.

00:43 Speaker 2 You know when you're at a good toir andike farbrengen, and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs: Conversations in Chassidus, a podcast farbrengen where we have real conversations about real Chassidus. Shalom aleichem. Thank you very much for making the time and making this happen.

01:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:07 Speaker 2 I'm sitting here with Rabbi Manis Friedman. Rabbi Friedman does not need an introduction, uh, but I would want to introduce him from a personal first-hand experience. Um, my wife was a counselor in your camp in the Beis Hana OnCamp. OnCamp, can't call it camp. Um, before, before she was married. Um, and last summer, we were, we, we were close with some of the girls who have since, uh, come to Crown Heights, so we host them for Shabbos meals. And, uh, one of them who was, who was, uh, one of the staff this year asked us if we could come this past summer for a Shabbos. Um, and we did, and we spent the Shabbos in, uh, Hopatcong, Virginia, where the, the grounds are. And it was a beautiful, beautiful Shabbos, and one thing that came up by the meals, I, I asked a question, and we went around the table, every girl gave an answer. And it was so powerful to see a lot of the girls that were there for the previous year, uh, the previous summer, how they were talking about how you had answered a question of theirs, you know, sometimes they shared the question, sometimes they didn't share the question, and how it changed their life, it changed their perspective, it changed their, uh, their whole mindset, and it was very powerful to hear that. Um, you know, it was almost like testimonials and feedback, but in a very, uh, natural and in a very, uh, personal way from so many

02:29 Speaker 2 girls. So that really, um, it really wowed me. Not that, uh , not that I haven't heard of you before, obviously, not that I haven't, uh, heard your, your speeches and watched your videos before, but this was like hearing firsthand from, from the girls. So that was, that was very powerful. Um, I want-

02:46 Speaker 1 I think that Shabbos I wasn't there.

02:48 Speaker 2 Right. Right, that Shabbos you weren't there. Exactly.

02:49 Speaker 1 Exactly.

02:50 Speaker 2 So no one's trying to impress you. It was, it was-

02:51 Speaker 1 It was like the first, the first Shabbos in fifty years that I missed.

02:55 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow.

02:56 Speaker 1 This is Beis Hana, basically.

02:58 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

02:58 Speaker 1 OnCamp is a project of Beis Hana, which started in 1970.

03:04 Speaker 2 The camp or in general Beis Hana?

03:06 Speaker 1 Beis... Okay. Beis Hana in general.

03:08 Speaker 2 Beis Hana in general. Wow. When did the camp start?

03:12 Speaker 1 About twenty years ago.

03:13 Speaker 2 Twenty year- wow. Wow. Yeah, it's, uh, I... It was, it was a big honor to be there. I felt the, the responsibility. I was very nervous before. Baruch Hashem, it was a, it was a beautiful Shabbos. Um, you were definitely missed by the, by everyone there. That, uh, that definitely came up over and over. Um, I actually wanna get back to that detail about the shluchus element of your, of your life of learning Chassidus, and how Chassidus shaped that. But I wanna back up, um, maybe to the beginning, I guess, in a certain context. Um, I was once on a, uh, by a Shabbos meal somewhere with your son, Benny. And we were farbrengen-ing, a bunch of guys together, and he said that when you were a bachur, you would lock yourself into a room and not leave until you were able, with a Maimon, and not leave until you were able to repeat the entire Maimon without one Lashon HaKodesh word. Entirely in English. That's, that's what he said. So you're not a choiny for what he said, but, uh, I'm, I'm imagining he, you know, he, he's... They don't, they don't make up these things about just anyone.

04:19 Speaker 1 Well, well, a little bit of exaggeration. Okay.

04:22 Speaker 2 Right. But the idea.

04:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:24 Speaker 2 The idea that the... The, and that, and that, that was, that was an amazing story. It was quite a f- quite a few years ago that I heard the story, and it stuck with me. Because I'll tell you personally what I saw from that, is that, you know, there's, there's Rabbi Friedman from, from YouTube and from the internet, and the world's most pou- popular rabbi, um, which is about, about, you know, explaining concepts in Yiddishkeit and Chassidus to the masses. And then what I heard from that story, and that really struck me, was all the way back before he was Rabbi Friedman from the internet, it was a bachur, and I would love to hear the story, you know, where you grew up, like, you know, learned in yeshiva. Um, how, uh, th- this is, for me, a story of a bachur who took Chassidus very seriously. That's, that's what I heard from that. And when you hear about a bachur who takes Chassidus very seriously, to me, it's not a wonder that there's so much that comes out from the Chassidus. So many people's lives that are touched and so much clarity that's made, um, from the Chassidus when it starts, when a bachur takes learning Chassidus early. Now, obviously, this is not a podcast for bachurim specifically to take Chassidus seriously. Same thing could be for a nas, same thing could be for shluchim, it's for anyone. So that's what I wanna go back to, 'cause I think that's where it starts. W-

05:38 Speaker 2 H- L- Look, uh, if you don't mind sharing, like, what was the story behind that bachur? In other words, like, what was your entry to Chassidus? What was your passion of Chassidus growing up? And, and then I guess how that translated into, we know you were the, the, um, I- I don't know what it's called, but the narrator by the Rebbe's farbrengens.

05:57 Speaker 1 Translator.

05:57 Speaker 2 Translator. Translator by the Rebbe's farbrengens. So, like, that part of it, which obviously is connected, the ability to explain things right away in English, you know, that fluency in, in Chassidus terms in English, and then of course on, on to the shluchus in, in Minnesota. So if you don't mind sharing.

06:13 Speaker 1 I'm not sure where to begin. Uh, obviously Rabbi Yael was the mashpia Beginning in Bedford, when we were still little boys, and then continuing into 770. I think that was the main influence. That was definitely the main the main, the main influence was Reb Yael, and Reb Yael's insistence that you have to understand what you're saying. And it really bothered him when people just parroted back the lesson from the Maimon. And he would say, "As farshtanden?" And we'd say, "Yes." "Tell me what, what do you understand?" And you say, "The Maimonidr." He would say, "I know the Maimon knows. What do you know?" And that, that way of thinking just clicked. What do you know? Don't tell me what the Maimon says. You've already learned the Maimon, now what do you know?

07:18 Speaker 2 Right.

07:19 Speaker 1 Which means, ha- what, what is your, what is your perception? What-- How do you see the world now that you've learned this Maimon? So of course you have to say it in your own words, otherwise you really don't understand. But more than your own words, it's your own experience.

07:41 Speaker 2 Mm.

07:41 Speaker 1 So does the world look different to you now that you learned the Maimon? No? Well, then learn it again.

07:50 Speaker 2 Right.

07:50 Speaker 1 Something has to shift when you're learning. Otherwise, you didn't really learn. So we had, we had a very, very special class that year, or that kita, whatever. Uh, Alav HaShalom, Zalman Deitsch, Label Kaplan. I mean, these were giants, even as bochurim. Amazing. And Reb Yael really took a liking. Uh, Ta rich as yamim, uh, Label Shapiro.

08:27 Speaker 2 Mm.

08:30 Speaker 1 So he convinced us to go straight from Bedford to 770. That was not the, that was not the derech. That was not the, the, the traditional, you went to Newark, you went to Chabad, you went to Montreal. Reb Yael said, "No, no. Come straight to 770-"

08:47 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:47 Speaker 1 "And we'll learn." So we did, but he never showed up. For about two weeks, he ca-- And then there was a-- So the next year, I went to Montreal.

09:01 Speaker 2 So this is what, eighteen years old around?

09:02 Speaker 1 What?

09:03 Speaker 2 Seventeen, eighteen years old?

09:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:07 Speaker 2 Wow.

09:09 Speaker 1 Then we came back to 770 for another year before I got married. And, um, so the way Reb Yael taught us to think, not just taught us a Maimonida, taught us a Bereishit Tanya. He taught us how to think.

09:25 Speaker 2 Right. So a lot of times, um, this point comes up, talking to different mashpiyim about the, the-- this idea of how the Chassidus needs to shape your life view. It needs to shape your, your identity. And a, a question that I hear a lot is, like, how many times can you... Like, you know, as if you're learning, if you're a bachur in yeshiva, and you're learning a Maimon every week or whatever it is, how many times can you shape your life's identity? How many-- Like, how, how is it that every Maimon could have this ability to do that? Like, you know, sometimes you get a click, maybe once a year or something clicks, but, like, every day, every week, like, how is that possible?

10:08 Speaker 1 So, so what needs to click? Generally speaking, that Gashmius becomes a mystery, and Alukus becomes natural.

10:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

10:22 Speaker 1 Every Maimon does that. You walk away, and Godliness is more real.

10:29 Speaker 2 Right.

10:30 Speaker 1 How many times can you do that? A lot of times.

10:33 Speaker 2 As long as you're living a physical life, I guess.

10:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

10:37 Speaker 2 Right. Uh-huh. So in other words, it doesn't have to be a Chassidus in Havanna or a Chassidus in, in, in Judea. It needs to be a-- It sounds like you're saying almost like a boost of energy in, in, in prac-- in, like, giving you the ability to face the world with a certain mindset, which maybe you knew that mindset before, but if you're living another day and you're eating another day, then you also have to be able to approach it with this mindset another day.

11:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. So at first, you know it theoretically. Yeah. The Eiberstet is Emes. Thank you. What does that mean, right? Every Maimon makes Alukus more Emes to you.

11:17 Speaker 2 Right.

11:19 Speaker 1 So for example, there are rabbis who, when they speak, will say, "According to our Torah, the world was created in six days."

11:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

11:31 Speaker 1 Oh, it's only according to your Torah. Without the Torah, how long, how long did it take to create the world? I don't know. The Torah says it was six days. Oh, so y-- So six days of creation are not real to you?

11:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

11:48 Speaker 1 That's why it's so annoying that there's always a quote. It says like this, it says like that. Do you know anything?

11:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

11:57 Speaker 1 Can you say something without quoting?

12:00 Speaker 2 Right.

12:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. So the same thing is true with Chassidus. The Rebbe says in that sifra, it still isn't real to you? You have to quote it and where the sifra is and what the occasion was? Well, every sifra is a Chassidus to you?

12:22 Speaker 2 Right.

12:22 Speaker 1 It's not working. It's not happening.

12:28 Speaker 2 It's, uh, it's interesting 'cause in a certain way, first of all, it seems like Rabbi Yoel himself had to, uh, um, I never studied the life of Rabbi Yoel, so to speak, but, like, it seems like he had to-- the Rebbe trained him to do this on his own also when it came to, let's say, the Maamarim, the Malchut. Like, y- and you see the progression throughout the years of how it went from m- more being a transcript of the Maimar with obviously Hanachah, uh, guys and all that to the, especially the later Halakhim, a, a completely new piece, which means Rabbi Yoel had to write it. Is that-- Do you see that, like, that was the way he operated Bechal in his Shiurim?

13:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Rabbi Yoel's memory was not stunning. He had a good memory, obviously. But y- people had better memories, and yet they couldn't Chazar Hasicha. Rabbi Yoel Chazar Hasicha as if he knew it already from before, you know what I mean?

13:28 Speaker 2 Mm.

13:29 Speaker 1 Why? He got the picture. He didn't remember every word.

13:34 Speaker 2 Right.

13:34 Speaker 1 He got the picture. There's a Shailah, there's an answer, there's a th-- He, he saw it from a bird's-eye view. So, for example, somebody would say, "No, no, the Rebbe used this word." He said, "That was in the answer. Now we're talking about..." He, he saw the Sicha.

13:50 Speaker 2 Right. Wow, that's-

13:52 Speaker 1 So when he, when he Chazar the Sicha, it was like, "Is that what the Rebbe said? I was there when the Rebbe said it. I, I didn't hear that." "I heard words."

14:02 Speaker 2 I remember in Yeshiva that, uh, Mashbim used to use when it talks about Chutz Atam Minasen Kochos Harav, they used to bring Rabbi Yoel as an example of that. Um, according to what you're saying, like, this idea that Rabbi Yoel's Koach wasn't that he got what the Rebbe was saying and, uh, more than the memory, the memorization, which is exactly what you're talking about, about not repeating, not just Chazaring a Maimar word for word, but understanding what the, what the idea is, what the message is.

14:29 Speaker 1 Absolutely. But, you know, that was not really... In some way, uh, it's more than, more than subtle. That was not always the style of learning in Lubavitch.

14:42 Speaker 2 Right.

14:43 Speaker 1 The style was you'd, you Chazar the Maimar, you memorize the Maimar. Who asked you to understand it? And why do you think you understand it? You're not even supposed to think that you understand it.

15:00 Speaker 2 Right.

15:00 Speaker 1 So this was a whole new way of... I think the Rebbe's Chidush.

15:07 Speaker 2 Right.

15:07 Speaker 1 That if you learn and you don't understand, y-you can't make a Bracha on Brachos Hatorah. You didn't, you didn't fulfill anything. Learning means knowing. And whenever the Rebbe spoke to people about learning Chassidus, not Lubavitchers, the reason was always Mitzvah Yedia Hashem.

15:29 Speaker 2 Right.

15:29 Speaker 1 And the only place you get Yedia Hashem is in Chassidus. So if you walk away from a Maimar and you say, "Ah, I don't understand. Uh, where's your Yedia Hashem?"

15:40 Speaker 2 Right.

15:40 Speaker 1 You don't know anything.

15:42 Speaker 2 So you're saying there's two things. There's understanding the actual Maimar, what it says, but more importantly, understanding how you understand the Maimar, understanding how the Maimar means something to you specifically.

15:52 Speaker 1 That, that's called understanding. Otherwise, you didn't understand it. You memorized it.

15:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Right. So you're saying it's not, uh, it's not Chassidus Baal Peh, it's, it's Yedia Chassidus.

16:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. What, um, what you said before about that w- that, you know, when you learn the, in the Ch- the Maimar about the Emes of Hashem, the Achdas Hashem in creation, and therefore how that way every Maimar can, can, uh, give you a shift, or not a shift, but uh, a r- a reality check. Um, it's, it's very Gashmik because in a-- this also, I see in this an answer to also another big question that, that gets, that comes up a lot, especially in here in the podcast, about the difference between the Avodah Dikah Maamarim and the Has kah Maamarim. And, you know, mainly the Avodah Dikah Maamarim, okay, it's literally telling you how to, how to live life. But, uh, you're learning a Maimar about Atzilut, darkness and Atzilut, so what connection? But what I see, what, based on what you're saying, is that if you're learning in a Maimar about Atzilut, that's a Maimar about the Emes of Hashem. So now you need to be able to have appreciation for this world better because of, because of the Emes of Hashem in, uh, e-even though it's in Atzilut. Is that, is that right? Is that, uh, is that a correct thing to say?

17:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't remember the details, but there was something where the Rebbe said something, Pakitza, I think the Alter Rebbe said a word, and it gave Chassidim a whole new respect for Olam Hazeh.

17:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. No, the Alter Rebbe said something in Atz- about Atzilut or whatever? Uh-huh. Right. So-

17:29 Speaker 1 Rabbi Yoel, Rabbi Yoel used a very good, good example. Uh, it cl- it clarifies a lot of things. He says, "You learn a little bit of Chassidus. You didn't become the biggest Chassid. You know, you're not Izgiton from Velt. Yeah, you learn some Chassidus. You're already a different person." And he describes this scenario, right? A guy comes to shore, and he's expecting that he's gonna get an Aliyah. He doesn't get an Aliyah. He goes over to the Gabbai, and he says, uh, "How come you didn't call me up?" He says, "I called you up two weeks ago." He says, "No, you didn't." And they get into a big fight. They call each other names. I mean, their egos are bruised, right? And they're defending themselves and, and it gets really nasty. "You liar, you this and that," you know? Finally, it gets so nasty that he can't stand it And he closes the Siddur, Chumash, and he storms out of there. As he's walking home, he's thinking, "Not enough that he doesn't call me up for an Aliyah, he lies about having..." Gets even angrier. He walks along a little further, he says, "He called me a liar. I'm older than him. Where's, where's the Derech Eretz?" Gets even angrier. Walks along some more and he thinks, "He called me a liar? Everybody knows that his father is the biggest liar in the..." Gets even angrier, right? And then he says, "And in front of an open Sefer Torah. It's unbelievable. This guy is so..."

19:24 Speaker 1 By the time he gets home, his wife says, "How come you're home so early?" He's too angry to tell her what happened. Comes Mincha time, he's not going. He'll never step into that Shul again.

19:38 Speaker 2 Okay.

19:39 Speaker 1 That's because he didn't learn Chassidus. Then you have a guy who learned a little bit of Chassidus. Beginnings, right? Same thing happens. He goes to Shul, he is expecting an Aliyah. He doesn't get the Aliyah. He says to the guy, "How come you didn't call me up?" He says, "I gave you Aliyah two weeks ago." He says, "No, you didn't." Get into a big fight. And he's, and he's, he's insulted, he's embarrassed, he's uh... And they say some really nasty things to each other, and it gets so hot, he walks out. He's walking along and he's thinking, "He calls me a liar. He called me a liar? All right, sometimes I lie, but I wasn't lying about this." Then he thinks a little further and he says, "That was pretty nasty right in front of a safe-- open Sefer Torah." Like, it's a little embarrassing. And he thinks, "What did, what did I do? I insulted the guy in front of the whole... The guy just lost, uh, his father. He just, just lost, uh... What do I... Give him a, give him a break." Anyway, by the time he gets home, his wife says, "How come you're home so early?" He's too ashamed to tell her.

20:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:52 Speaker 1 He's too ashamed to tell her. Comes Mincha time, he can't go to sh-- He can't show his face, he's so embarrassed.

21:00 Speaker 2 Right.

21:01 Speaker 1 That's the difference.

21:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:04 Speaker 1 So if you wanna know, is Chassidus affecting you? Ask yourself. You're still not a Benoni, you're still not a Tzadik, you're still not even a Chassid. You get upset. Your ego, you have a healthy ego, and you expected a, a, an Aliyah, and you're... Okay. But ten minutes later, what's going on in your head? Are you escalating the ego?

21:29 Speaker 2 Right.

21:30 Speaker 1 Or are you kind of catching yourself and reminding yourself of what's real? That, that's Chassidus.

21:40 Speaker 2 Right.

21:41 Speaker 1 Eventually, you didn't get an Aliyah, so what? He called you a liar. Ah, you're, you're a liar. It's a completely different reality.

21:53 Speaker 2 Right. So you're saying the so-- the, the Nekuda is about the Emes of Hashem, the Einod Nuvadi, and how it plays itself out in every, every interaction and every part of your life.

22:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:08 Speaker 2 Because every part of your life is you, so.

22:10 Speaker 1 So the practical side of it is the need to be right. If you learn a little bit of Chassidus, you don't need to be right. You don't need it. Not you're overlooking, you're, you know, you're being, you're being Mesir Nefesh. You don't need to be right. Who, what do you need to be right for?

22:33 Speaker 2 Right. The, uh, I, I, I mean, you see this throughout Chassidus. That Chassidim were always known for their Bittul, for their, for their Aves Sechar, their, their Mesir Nefesh. It all stems from the same place of-

22:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, okay. So what's the difference between Bittul and yem-- and, and Anavus? You know-

22:52 Speaker 2 You said Anavus. The Rebbe explains Anavus.

22:54 Speaker 1 Ah. The Emes is that there's no difference.

22:59 Speaker 2 Right.

23:00 Speaker 1 But yet there, there, you know, we use the word Bittul instead of Anavus. Why? Bittul doesn't mean humble. Bittul means real. Emes. It's Emes or not. Are you a liar? Well, not today. Yeah, but are you a liar? Yeah. Okay, so what, what are you...

23:21 Speaker 2 Right.

23:22 Speaker 1 Bittul means let the Emes be the Emes. What are you patchking?

23:27 Speaker 2 Right. So I wanna go back to the, what, uh, we, I brought up about the Beis Hana. And, um, I would love to hear that part of it, especially going back to the, your early years of Shlichus. What, what year was it when you moved out?

23:42 Speaker 1 Tshun Lamed.

23:43 Speaker 2 Tshun Lamed. Oh, you said, right. That's what you said. And you went straight to Minnesota, right? That was your first stop. So, so especially those first years, but probably really throughout, um, how did the Chassidus identify the, the way that you viewed your, your Shlichus? Or, or let me, let me start with one question first. The, um, your Shlichus was always primarily in the teaching realm or... Yeah. So in, so in the teaching, obviously there's classes where you teach Chassidus, you know, you're teaching Tanya, you're teaching Torah or whatever it is. But even if, let's say, you're teaching Chumash or you're teaching Davening. Okay, Davening is probably a little easier, but Chumash, I guess. How-- What about Chassidus gave you the identity of the message that you were giving over or the identity of the, of the whole Shlichus that you were there?

24:38 Speaker 1 Well, just practically speaking, we went out to Shlichus, what did we know? What did we know?

24:49 Speaker 2 Right.

24:50 Speaker 1 You never read a book in your life. You never studied anything in your life other than Chassidus. So w-- so what are you bringing? All you have is Chassidus. There was nothing else. And yet you're supposed to respond and answer questions about all sorts of things you never even heard of. But that's it. That's, that's your whole artillery, is your, your Chassidus. And that's supposed to be good enough? And, and that's what people had this mystery of, what do you mean you're going out to-- W-what do you know? You don't know the world. You don't know what's going on out there. You don't know what the issues are. You don't-- What do you know? So people were marveling like, you need a little training. You need to be told what's going on out there, what the world is all about. You're not prepared. You-- What do you know? On the other hand, there were many shluchim who taka were, were, were shocked. They had nothing to say. They're asked to get up, say something. They have nothing. What, what should they do? And they felt like they were not prepared because what they learned in yeshiva and in real life, no connection.

26:28 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

26:29 Speaker 1 Which means they they didn't learn it.

26:35 Speaker 3 Right.

26:37 Speaker 1 So you ask shluchim, uh, back in those... What are you telling your audience? What are you telling your baal batim? What do you say on Shabbos afternoon? A sifre you just read now to prepare for your speech. So all the years you sat in yeshiva, what-- All that information is useless? What are you gonna tell them about the difference between Biya and Atzilus? What are you gonna tell them? That there are sfiros that are, that are at, uh-- That you can't even understand them, that before they even become sfiros, they become... What are you gonna tell them? And if you don't have what to say, you didn't, you didn't get it.

27:35 Speaker 3 Right. How do you see that nowadays in like the shluchim that you see going out now? I mean, first of all, obviously, there's like JLI. There's-- It's, uh, uh, I can only imagine it's a whole different structure. But I'm-

27:48 Speaker 1 Uh, it's a little bit of a problem because a lot of times you listen to a shliach give a speech, and there isn't a word of Chassidus in it.

27:56 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

27:58 Speaker 1 It's social event. It's a c-current events. It's a, it's a little psychology. It's a little... Where, where is the Chassidus?

28:12 Speaker 3 But I'm saying like in the-- in terms of what you mentioned, how, you know, where are the-- all the years of, of pr- of preparation in yeshiva, of learning in yeshiva, where is that now? So how do you see that in, in, you know, this generation of not so much about the shluchim once they're out and how they're, and how they're getting their information then, but more about the, that exact bridge of yeshiva to shluchas, and really it's not just shluchas. You know, same thing as if you're becoming a member of a nash, in a community. Do you see the, that the yeshivas are... I, I, I don't even-- I don't wanna turn this into a yeshiva thing, a Mo-- uh, you know, a Mooser thing. I'm talking about, let's say, from the Bochurim's per- per- perspective. Let's say, Do you see that Chassidim, the Lubavitchers, are coming out from years of learning Chassidus in yeshiva with more of an appreciation and more of a realization of what Chassidus is and how to live with it in their own lives, um, versus, let's say, you know, in your days? Like, h-how do you see it play itself out?

29:15 Speaker 1 Well, it's inevitable. I mean, if you sat and learned Chassidus, and you sat by a farbrengen and you... You're, you're a different person, whether you know it or not.

29:24 Speaker 3 Right.

29:25 Speaker 1 Whether you intended it or not. You can tell right away. As soon as a Chassid opens his mouth, you know, you know. Just like you can know right away if somebody's been to therapy. The language, the, the tone, everything changes. I heard a person says, "Uh, I gotta talk to you because the other day I was so triggered by..." Uh. Right? You just gave yourself away. Just the, the vocabulary itself. So a Chassid has a vocabulary that's, that's magnificent. There was a woman that spent a year in Machane. She was a, a journalist, and she wanted to do a story on Lubavitcher girls, so she spent a year living with Beis Gur-- Beis, Beis Rivkah girls, Machane girls. She wrote a book. It was a little, uh, not so complimentary, but, but it was emes. It was... One of the amazing things she says is, "The average Chabad teenage girl can speak about emotions and issues that the same age girl in public school has no vocabulary for it."

30:45 Speaker 3 Wow.

30:46 Speaker 1 And they get it from the Tanya.

30:49 Speaker 3 Wow.

30:50 Speaker 1 That was such a good statement. There's a certain maturity, a certain wisdom that our girls have. The worst of them, the most rebellious one of them- They have a vocabulary that nobody else has, and they can describe mature issues like an adult. So when we had Beis Chana in Minnesota, we brought girls out to be the madrichos. The women who came to the program were in their forties, fifties, sixties, and these madrichos were seventeen, eighteen, and they were advising and guiding and sharing wisdom with these forty-year-olds, and they all were like, "I can't believe this. I'm old enough to be her mother, and she's so much wiser."

31:44 Speaker 3 Wow.

31:47 Speaker 1 They weren't much wiser, not all of them, but they had something that just maybe the vocabulary itself, they had words for things that nobody could describe. Word, words like bittel, words like, uh, hashgacha pratit, and they lived with it. They were rebellious. They didn't wanna be frum. They didn't wanna be tznius, but hashgacha pratit is hashgacha pratit. It's real.

32:21 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:22 Speaker 1 So they're very impressive, even if they were the worst of the worst. So you learn Chassidus, you're different. You're different, and everyone can tell.

32:36 Speaker 3 Right.

32:36 Speaker 1 There's a famous story. Reb Yael went to a wedding, early years, way back. He went to a wedding in Ba-- in Williamsburg. On the way back, they were waiting for a bus. It was raining. It was dark. It was cold. There were a whole group of them going back to Crown Heights. Lubavitchers, non-Lubavitchers. One guy was very impatient. He kept walking up to the, to the, to the street to see, look down the street to see if the bus is coming, and he would come back disappointed. He went back again. They were, they were huddling in a, in a doorway of a store. Finally, this guy comes back after looking down the street, and he says, "Hey, der bus is chin kimem mit Moshiach." So Reb Yael says to him, "What's the comparison? The bus could be there or never come, and Moshiach comes zicha." He looks at him, and he says, "Lubavitcher?" He said, "Where'd I say Lubavitch?"

33:42 Speaker 3 Right.

33:42 Speaker 1 "Where'd I say that was Lubavitch? The bus is not real. Moshiach is real." "Ah, but still Lubavitcher." It's, it's a, it's a fact. It's true. So every guy who learned Chassidus is different at, to some degree.

34:04 Speaker 3 Right.

34:07 Speaker 1 The question is: How does that translate into everyday life for everybody else?

34:16 Speaker 3 You're saying sharing it with everyone?

34:17 Speaker 1 Yes.

34:17 Speaker 3 Right.

34:20 Speaker 1 If you can't share it, you don't have it. If you can't explain it, you don't understand it. So forcing us to explain Chassidus to non-Chassidim forces us to understand what we're talking about. It's like when I started teaching these women, they're not babies. They have degrees. They're smart. You can't tell them bubbe meises and kids' stories. Everything you said, they had a decent question. If you say, "I don't know," they walk out. You don't know, um, goodbye. So it forced me to, to, to make everything for export. You can't just keep it for yourself and be content. If I can't say it to a person who never learned Aleph-Beis, then I don't know it.

35:28 Speaker 3 Right.

35:30 Speaker 1 Simple as that.

35:31 Speaker 3 And, and the Chassidus, that Chassidus should be able to be explained even if you don't know Aleph-Beis. Like, it's, uh-

35:37 Speaker 1 So when we started Beis Chana, the first thing we do is learn Tanya.

35:41 Speaker 3 Wow.

35:42 Speaker 1 Pushing the text. No, not about the Tanya.

35:44 Speaker 3 Right.

35:45 Speaker 1 We push it out with the Nigun Tanya, uh, and it was, it was f-phenomenally successful.

35:55 Speaker 3 Wow. What, what did you see in your years of, of teaching in that, in that context of what yasod of Chassidus, what, did a lot of the questions come back to? Like, you're saying that, you know, we have to know what we know from Chassidus to be able to answer these questions. What did you see for yourself that, um, that... Like, what, what kind of premise o-of Chassidus was automatically the answer to, to a lot of those questions? And I think it's a, a very important question, not just for, because of your story, because this is obviously a big topic nowadays, especially about, uh, Tanya being the answers for all the questions, and everyone wants to know where, why, how? How does Tanya... And I think that's a little bit of what you're describing, that when you-- Yeah, it might not say in Tanya the literal exact case that you're just, that, that this person is asking, but if you understand the message of Tanya and the messages of Tanya, then, then it automatically spells itself out. So in you, uh, what do, what did you see was o-one or more than one of those yasodus that automatically, like, when people got that, a lot of the questions were answered?

37:10 Speaker 1 Versus a Yid. Once you convince them, this the Yid, there are no further questions. Well, in that case, tell me more. If I'm a Jew, tell me what a Jew needs to know. You don't start off with... I mean, there's an approach in Kiruv, where you start off by convincing them that the Torah is Emes. Torah is great. Torah is real. It's a very difficult, long path, and it doesn't really get you very far.

37:44 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

37:46 Speaker 1 Let's say I can convince you that Torah is Emes. How can I convince you that the Torah we have today is the same Torah we had then?

37:54 Speaker 3 Right.

37:55 Speaker 1 It's hard. After I convince you that the Torah is Emes, how do I convince you that you should live by it? So it's Emes, okay, good, huh? E-every step of the way leaves you with another question, another, another... And in the end, it could be like, "Okay, fine. Thank you very much. All right." And that'll do with me.

38:16 Speaker 3 Right.

38:17 Speaker 1 If you start off by saying, "No, no, y-you know how Jewish you are?" If I can convince you how Jewish you are, you have no more questions. It's re- it, it's a much faster, a much... Like the old question there, uh, But when I look in the Torah, and it says so I know that you That, that's the difference in the two approaches. There's Torah and there's Yidden.

38:57 Speaker 3 Mm.

38:57 Speaker 1 What do you teach first?

38:58 Speaker 3 Yes.

38:59 Speaker 1 That there's a Torah or that this the Yid?

39:02 Speaker 3 Right.

39:04 Speaker 1 So once you convince them, this is you, this is why you have an interest, this is why you came to this program This is what's schlepping you and pushing you and mo- Oh, they're different. The conversation changes immediately. Well, maybe Christianity is right. It isn't a gay anymore. Not Yid.

39:32 Speaker 3 Right.

39:32 Speaker 1 So even the most difficult, the most resistant, the most argumentative. Say, "Look, now you know you're a Jew, now it's your problem." Have questions? Find answers. It's your problem now.

39:47 Speaker 3 Right.

39:47 Speaker 1 And it w-- And, and that's...

39:52 Speaker 3 I would imagine that a lot of the, the people coming to, to the Chabad House or coming to classes, something about it from a, um, a context of, you know, like I said before, a person with a degree, you know, a very successful person, established American. Um, a-and at the same time, I'm thinking in my mind, you know, I'm a teacher in, in, in a cheder, in elementary and, you know, uh, older classes. It's, in a way, the same thing. Where boys have a identity themselves as I like to play. I like to, to, you know, to, to eat, to play, to do things. And now you're coming telling me that my identity is that I'm a Yid. It's uncomfortable, or not even uncomfortable, but it's like, "Okay, I, I, I am a Yid. I know I'm Jewish." Um, but for that to become my core identity, that therefore it's translated into everything I do and ev- and the way I think about everything, the way I approach any situation, what's... I'm sure you've, you've met a lot of resistance in people adopting that that becomes their core identity as opposed to just another, another thing about me. Um, how do you do that? How do you, how do you get someone to be comfortable and then to fully adopt that this is who they are, this is their core? Like from Tanya, that is your whole matzias.

41:15 Speaker 1 Yes and no. Even in Tanya, it says that by the the is who, who,

41:23 Speaker 3 Right.

41:24 Speaker 1 So yeah, you have a, you have a problem as whi- which one you want to identify with. And that's what I'm saying, that once I tell you you're a Jew, and you'll always be a Jew, and what being a Jew means, now you can wrestle with it and say, "I wanna make that the center of my..." You know, not. But now, now it's in your hands.

41:43 Speaker 3 Right. In other words, not as much as convincing them, rather as giving them another way to view themselves, and now they could figure out how-

41:55 Speaker 1 But what, what it changes is a, is a very, very significant. Without Hasidus, the struggle in life is between good and bad. You're gonna be good or you're gonna be bad? Oh, you're very bad. Oh, you're very good. Not good enough. It's, it's, it's a nasty picture. Ev-every moment, are you gonna do something bad? Are you gonna do something good? Uh, don't, don't do bad. Don't be bad. Don't It, it's so niderek, you know? Like, it reduces you to a, a sin about to happen unless you're very careful, and it's... Hasidus says, "Good and bad is your struggle? Bad is bad. What are, what... Why are you entertaining bad?" The shayela is you wanna be a human being or you wanna be godly? There's your option.

42:56 Speaker 3 Mm.

42:57 Speaker 1 But even if you're just a human being, don't be bad. Bad is not one of the options. It's a distraction. It's an exception. Not you're always on the verge of doing something bad. I mean, that's, that's musar.

43:13 Speaker 3 Right.

43:15 Speaker 1 Hasidus says you're fighting the wrong battle Why, why is bad competing with you as if it's a, a reality and, and an inevitability? Bad is out. So what's the challenge? Challenge is you can be a decent human being or you can be a There's a challenge. It's a completely different, I don't know, a, a different reality, a different view of yourself, a different view of the world, a different view of, of, of the Ebeshter. The Ebeshter put you in a position where you can do bad and good. Why, why would he do that to anybody? That's not nice. Then if I do bad, oh. The whole picture is so unimpressive. So when you say to-- you introduce Yiddishkay to somebody, it doesn't sound very appealing. There are sins and there are mitzvahs. You gotta do mitzvahs, don't do the sins. What do I need this for? The whole picture doesn't sound-- Leave me alone. But when you present Nefesh Abba Hamis, Nefesh Elokis, first of all, it's so complimentary. It's like saying, "Of course you're gonna be a mensch, but you can be something more than a mensch." Okay, now you got my interest. Now it's a battle that is elegant. It's befitting a human being. It's not degrading you to an animal. It's completely different.

45:07 Speaker 3 E-even though it's Nefesh Abba Hamis, but it's, uh, included in that is Nefesh Elokis also. In other words, it's not the-- We're not saying that you, that you're l-- when you do an ave-- when you... Sorry, not an aveir, but when you live, uh, non-Nefesh Elokis-oriented life, that you're a behemoth in the rabbinic sense. You're saying that it's a, it's a, a l- a lower, the animal within the person, the, the lower way of living.

45:32 Speaker 1 Nefesh Abba Hamis is not a Yetzer Hara.

45:36 Speaker 3 Right.

45:38 Speaker 1 Nefesh Abba Hamis is an identity.

45:41 Speaker 3 Right.

45:41 Speaker 1 Yetzer Hara is not an identity.

45:43 Speaker 3 Right.

45:44 Speaker 1 But that's how it's treated without chitzus. Who are you? Half aveira and half mitzvah. Come on.

45:55 Speaker 3 Right.

45:56 Speaker 1 But that, that was the picture. Yetzer Hara, Yetzer Tov. Yetzer Hara means aveiras. Nefesh Abba Hamis means a little arrogant, a little selfish, a little... It's a completely different picture.

46:12 Speaker 3 Right.

46:14 Speaker 1 I was just talking to somebody, interesting thing. What does Alter Rebbe say in Tanya right away in the first paytik that Goyim have no tov klal? They have a Nefesh of Gimel Klipos Hatzmayus, ain behem tov klal. What, what, what are you, in a bad mood? First of all, why are you talking about Goyim altogether? It's a Sefer And in the first paytik you mention Goyim? And what do you say about them? Very bad. Thank you very much. Where, where did this come in? What are you telling me, not to be a Goy? What are you, what are you telling me? By the same token, every morning you have to mention Shelo yasani Goy. First lick the, the Goyim cup. Right? Can't focus on Jews. Stick to Jews. What are you-- What are you talking about Goyim for? What it says in Tanya is not that Goyim are bad. What he's saying in the Tanya is, what does it mean Chesed leumim chatas? What are we talking about? The Chesed of leumim. The kindness and the goodness that they do. That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about how bad they are.

47:37 Speaker 3 Right.

47:37 Speaker 1 We're talking about how good they are. How good are they? They do good and even though they don't have any natural goodness whatsoever.

47:51 Speaker 3 What does that mean?

47:52 Speaker 1 It's a completely different... So what, what is the, the, the, the grades? There's the Nefesh Elokis. Nefesh Elokis is kulai kodesh, kodesh kadosh. Then you have the Nefesh Abba Hamis of a Jew. Klipos nega, yesh bam tov gam ken. That's why they're Rachmanim and, and, and gam lechasadim naturally.

48:20 Speaker 3 Right.

48:20 Speaker 1 Then there's the nish-- Nefesh of Gimel Klipos Hatzmayus. Naturally, there's nothing good. So why do they do good? For a reason.

48:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

48:34 Speaker 1 And that's, that's the criticism.

48:36 Speaker 3 Right.

48:36 Speaker 1 Oh, you're only good for a reason. Is that a terrible criticism?

48:45 Speaker 3 Halavai. It's like Halavai we should do good things-

48:49 Speaker 1 Yes

48:49 Speaker 3 ... uh, for a reason. Right. Yeah.

48:51 Speaker 1 But there's more to it than that. If you're keeping six hundred and thirteen mitzvahs for a reason, then you're like the Shoresh Klipos Hatzmayus. If you're keeping Taryag mitzvahs because you, you, you want, uh, Gan Eden, how are you better than the Gimel Klipos Hatzmayus Le gamra? I mean, that's a sobering thought, no? But it, it really immediately tells you what is the difference between human and godly.

49:39 Speaker 3 Right.

49:40 Speaker 1 Nefesh Abba Hamis can be very, very good, but for a reason. Good reason.

49:48 Speaker 3 Right.

49:48 Speaker 1 But you need a reason? That's just human. Godly means what kind of ne-reason do you need? What is-- W- so what, what, why are you doing what you're doing? For Him. What's in it for me? Why does it have to be something for me? In the human soul, nefesh habhamis, if not something for me, I don't know why I should be interested.

50:23 Speaker 3 Right.

50:23 Speaker 1 "Hem chayenu v'rerch yameinu." Oh, okay. Uh, I'm interested. You have "tovei olam hazeh and tovei olam haba." Okay, okay, now I'm interested. Yeah, but that's just human. No better than the gimel klipos at me is. That's what you have in common. Whereas the godly person, completely different being. A "de'ibrishte vil?" I don't need any more reason than that. Thus he's not human, godly.

50:59 Speaker 3 Right.

50:59 Speaker 1 'Cause He wants. And that's enough for you? Yeah, that's plenty. Once I heard some guy say, "We don't ask questions. We do mitzvahs for no reason." For a second, that sounds oh, nice. Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. You do mitzvahs for no reason? "Vi a sheyget?", what do you mean you do mi-mitzvahs for no reason? What you mean is you do mitzvahs for the ultimate reason, for no reason.

51:37 Speaker 3 Right.

51:38 Speaker 1 So what he's saying in Tanya is, look at the difference between a human being and a godly being. A human being can be even the, the "shto klipos at meis legamrisheim bem teiv klav". However, you're doing good, you have Gan Eden. But that's all you have. So some-somebody, "Efese defede kever", said that they are neshamas sitting in Gan Eden for five hundred years, and "tzele kus hom ze kin shayches nish".

52:15 Speaker 3 Wow.

52:16 Speaker 1 Pretty scary thought. So why are they in Gan Eden? 'Cause they learned and they daven. Their schar for-- So they're getting their schar. Ibrishte, they have no idea what that means.

52:31 Speaker 3 Right.

52:32 Speaker 1 In Gan Eden.

52:33 Speaker 3 It's very fitting with, like, "biemes deyasir" track of, you know, of "avan al sof malcha", that there's-- Gan Eden is, uh, is, is a-- is, is not, is not the-

52:45 Speaker 1 It's not the-

52:45 Speaker 3 It's not the point. It's, it's-

52:46 Speaker 1 It's not the malcha

52:46 Speaker 3 ...a distraction. Right. It's not the malcha. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna touch back to, you brought it up before, and it's, it's a massive topic about, um, you mentioned about the therapy and about, you know, the, the people who are, you know, in, in that kind of mindset. And what c-- what, what, what, what's a big topic, uh, comes up all the time, ba-- over and over, and over is about how Chassidus fits into that. Is, is Chassidus a self-help book? Should you be learning Chassidus with the mindset that it's not, um... that it's, that it's a "sechel alaki", it's, uh, it's, it's Chassidus, it's the, you know, it's the r- the, the, the diamond and the "keter Amalek" and "el mai", okay, it also teach-- it also makes you into a mensch, but that's not what Chassidus is for. And wha-what I see over and over in all these conversations and all these, uh, you know, comments and all the online articles back and forth, it's like everybody has their... It, it, it almost seems like there's two extremes. There's the extreme of people that are like, "No, Chassidus is, is, you know, self-help, and it's, uh..." Meaning you could find all the self-help and the, and the therapy in Chassidus, and you should be. In other words, just like you're going to... I'm not talking about people that are saying you shouldn't learn Chassidus. I'm not talk-- Obviously not. I'm talking about people who are like, "Yeah, of course, learn Chassidus, but find all

54:04 Speaker 3 the answers in Chassidus." And then you have the other extreme of the people that are like, "No, you're watering down Chassidus, and it's, uh, it-it's a bizayon, and it's, uh, you're taking the, the, the head of the king and "toimin b'veis Hashpa." What, what I wanna understand, first of all, I wanna hear your thoughts on, on this topic in general, but also to zoom into like why-- what do you think, why are people so stuck in this? Like, why can't there be the obvious answer that, that everyone should see? It, it almost seems like you have people that grew up one way where Chassidus is like you can't involve Chassidus with this world, "chas v'shalom". Then you have the other way where it's like, no, Chassidus is, um, is not enough, and therefore we need to go to self-help and, and whatever, and therapy and, and all that. And "el mai" we'll, we'll do Hashem a favor, and we'll tie it back to Chassidus, and we'll, we'll, we'll show how like, oh, the Alter Rebbe also knew that. Um, it's-- I mean, obviously people come from their own life's experience, but why do you think it's-- it, people are so stuck in this? Like, uh, what, what do you, what do you see in that?

55:12 Speaker 1 I'm not sure. I, I think like the, the healthiest way to think about it is there, there is medicine that is curative, and there's medicine that is preventative. Medicine should be able to tell you how to live so that you never need a cure.

55:31 Speaker 3 Mm.

55:32 Speaker 1 Or medicine can only cure you once you're sick. But how to live a healthy life, who knows? Nobody knows.

55:40 Speaker 3 Right.

55:42 Speaker 1 Same thing with Tanya, with Chassidus. Is, is Chassidus a cure for your sicknesses, or is Chassidus a way of living that you don't get sick? So what if you are already sick? Again, you can use Chassidus as a cure, or you can use Chassidus to get you past the issue above the problem to where there's no problem. Practical application. A person is suffering from a very low self-image. Very common, right? So what do you do? Oh, Chassidus comes along and says, "Oh, you shouldn't have a low self-image. You're a chelek eloka mimaal. You're the Ben Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov. You have a neshama. You can, uh..." That, that's like medicine. Or you can say, "You have a what? A low self-image? You're a little creature. You're a tipat serucha. What, what's, what's the problem? Yeah, you're low, so? What, why is that a problem? You are what you are, but you can do mitzvahs. So you wanna sit and think about what you are, or you wanna think of-- uh, sit and think about David the ones?" In other words, you can deal with the issue as an issue, or you can put yourself in a healthier place where there is no issue.

57:30 Speaker 3 It's interesting 'cause which one of the two that you mentioned is the one where there's no issue. I could see it go both ways. If you, if you view yourself, uh, uh, someone who if you come with the message of like, "Oh, you're a neshama. You're a chelek eloka mimaal. So what do you mean low self-image?" I could see that as being the no issue solution. No?

57:52 Speaker 1 No. You do need to have a good self-image, and I'll help you get a good self-image.

57:56 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Okay.

57:58 Speaker 1 And people will say, "I know I have a nefesh Elokis, but still, I did some very bad things." "Nobody appreciates me." So you go, "No, no, no, no. The neshe- the nefesh Elokis, it's so great, it's so..." "So what are you, are you trying to give me a good self-image?" The other approach is, "What do you need a self-image for? Who asked you to have a self-image?" You have a shlichus. Do your shlichus. Why you're a low, nasty creature? Oh, so.

58:38 Speaker 3 What about, let's say, simcha? How, how would that fit into such a-

58:42 Speaker 1 There's no greater simcha than a low creature who is invited to do great things.

58:48 Speaker 3 Right. Right. Okay. So y- you, you said that there's-- you could learn Chassidus as the... It sounded like there were three things. You could learn Chassidus as the a li- a lifestyle in which there's no sicknesses, or you could look at Chassidus as a cure to the sicknesses. And then in that itself, it could be a cure, um, it could be a cure that is dealing with the sickness or a cure that's-

59:17 Speaker 1 Puts you above it.

59:18 Speaker 3 Right, puts you above it. So what would be, like, the first way? In other words, what would be learning Chassidus in a way that it doesn't even-- that it, that it prevents the sicknesses?

59:29 Speaker 1 So look, so Chassidus was, it, it was said that Chassidus is the cure to kol chelei hanefesh before Mashiach comes, right? Tanya.

59:41 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah.

59:43 Speaker 1 What's chelei hanefesh? Your father doesn't like you. That's a chelei hanefesh?

59:51 Speaker 3 It's very heavy.

59:55 Speaker 1 You had a trauma. You o- you almost got killed, and you're ca- ca... Post-traumatic, you know. That's chelei hanefesh. Chelei hanefesh means you take yourself too seriously. Yeshes is chelei hanefesh. Tanya is a cure to chelei hanefesh, not to trauma. Obviously, if you cure your chelei hanefesh, the trauma will go away.

1:00:31 Speaker 3 Right. At the same time, when, when, when you were saying it before, it was, it was mamish sounding like the way the Ramam writes in, in about, uh, about physical refuah, that the Ramam says, "You know, I'm writing to you a diet. If you keep this diet, you'll never get sick." If-- The Ramam writes, "If you were sick before, if the person was sick before, then you need to figure that out, and then you could go back to living this healthy lifestyle." So applying that to Chassidus, 'cause I saw, I saw a lot of parallels, um, what-- So what would it be for the person that is stuck in a certain problem?

1:01:05 Speaker 1 Go to the doctor.

1:01:07 Speaker 3 Which means Chassidus?

1:01:08 Speaker 1 No.

1:01:08 Speaker 3 Oh, so that, there, that's where the therapy or the whatever-

1:01:12 Speaker 1 For trauma, go to a trauma doctor.

1:01:16 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

1:01:16 Speaker 1 For pneumonia, go to pneumonia doctor.

1:01:18 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:19 Speaker 1 So what's the chelei hanefesh that Chassidus cures?

1:01:23 Speaker 3 You're saying the more overl- the more underlying, the more fundamental thing. So, so, so the, so the problem you see in society and all these arguments, sounds like you're saying, is that people are trying to tackle the, the direct symptoms, the direct, uh, expression of the issue with a bigger picture, Tanya, that's, that, that's, that, uh, that they, th- therefore, they don't feel it's matching up, and therefore, they feel that it's not, uh, it's not working.

1:01:52 Speaker 1 And, and Tanya is not meant to be an anti-trauma medicine. It's an anti-nefesh habhamas medicine, a healthy nefesh habhamas.

1:02:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:02:10 Speaker 1 Chassidus does another thing Battle with saying 100% a. Skafya. So what if you want? You shouldn't give into what you want. In fact, what you want is stupid and it's ugly and nasty and embarrassing. Hasid is really saying, "You think you want that? You don't want that. You think you need that? You don't need that." It's not Emes. The problem with Nefesh Habaham is it's not that it's grub. It's not Emes. So not you have your needs, but give them up, have Mesiras Nefesh, and do what Abish needs. You don't have needs. A mensch has needs? First of all, "Bar kochacha ata neitzan, bar kochacha ata neilad, bar kochacha ata chai, bar kochacha ata mes." There's nothing about you. None of this is about you. So you need to eat. You need to have a house. You don't even need to be born. Wh-where did, where did you get these needs? It's not Emes. That's Nefesh Habaham. Nefesh Habaham says, "Ich. Ich darf, ich will, ich hob, ich hob nisht, ich mein, ich hob." The whole thing is a bluff. It's a lie. You don't need anything. "Me darf dir, du darfs gar nisht." So what do you mean give up your-- There's, there's nothing to give up. It's a darfs nisht. Even Mesiras Nefesh. Mesiras Nefesh is a, it's a big avoda. It's a big, uh, miluah. It's a-- You're giving up a life that you don't even need. What do you need it for? You need to be alive? Where's the Mesiras Nefesh?

1:04:46 Speaker 3 Right.

1:04:48 Speaker 1 Shluchim go off to a town, they give up all their needs. What needs are you talking about? The Rebbe kept saying, "Mesiras Nefesh from Shluchim." What Mesiras Nefesh are you talking about? They can't wait to go on Shlichus. Live in a nice town with a big lawn. Where's the Mesiras Nefesh? "Ah, you're not gonna have everything you need." What do I need? And I asked one of the Mutchkin brothers. He was farshikt over there in the, the North Pole somewhere. And I said, "How come you came back normal? Nobody comes back normal." He says, "What are you comparing me to, a Cossack? The Cossack doesn't come back normal because they took his whole life away. Everything he had, they took away, so he cracked up. What did I have?" Right. "All I had is that in the afternoon I daven Mincha and at night I daven Maariv. So what do you think I did at North Pole? So what am I cracking up about? I never had anything to begin with." Or if a garnish get darft. So Hasidus puts you in a place where you're not-- It's not a struggle between my needs and Abish's demands. It's simply a struggle of do I really have needs? What's the Emes? I really have needs. Well, if I don't eat, I'll die. No. And? Oh, then. Then what? What? Are you willing to give up your life? I never asked for it in the first place. It makes you mamish bigger than life. Literally bigger. Ich.

1:06:50 Speaker 1 I, I, I need to live. Since when do I need to live? That's for a bluff. I don't need it. I didn't ask for it. I have to find without it. Oh, but you're willing to give up your life? No, I need my life. It's a joke. So bar kochacha ata chai is not a negative, depressing thought.

1:07:22 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:07:23 Speaker 1 It makes you completely indestructible. What are you gonna do, kill me?

1:07:29 Speaker 3 Right. At the same time, and, and this goes back to the beginning of the conversation about learning Hasidus in a way that you understand and you get it, um, that it, that it matches your life's experience and not just about that context, but in general, we know that especially the Rebbe's mamarim about the avodat ha'tochinim, that has to be mitzvat ha'tochin and if with the tochin. So if I understand correctly, what you're saying is not opposed to that. It's just a different identity of the tochin. The tochin has to align itself with what it really is and then figure out how Hashem's message is within all that, all those, all those needs, so to speak. In other words, all the feelings of a human being, but now it's the feelings of a human being with the identity of the bittul, with the identity of

1:08:26 Speaker 1 So instead of thinking, "I need to eat," you're thinking, "Why does the Eibishter make me eat?"

1:08:32 Speaker 3 Right.

1:08:32 Speaker 1 I need?

1:08:34 Speaker 3 So it's not taking away the eating, but it's coming from a whole different place now.

1:08:37 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's not mine.

1:08:39 Speaker 3 Right.

1:08:39 Speaker 1 Nothing is mine.

1:08:43 Speaker 3 Right. So going back to the way you presented it to-

1:08:48 Speaker 1 One, one of the things that Ber used to go, "Is Olam HaZeh real? Is it real?" "Absolutely." "How do you know?" "Because it says, 'B'reishit bara Elokim.'"

1:08:58 Speaker 3 Right.

1:08:58 Speaker 1 You realize how real the te- the world is? 'Cause it says.

1:09:04 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:04 Speaker 1 Otherwise...

1:09:08 Speaker 3 And then it could only be as real as it says.

1:09:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Which means it can only be the world that He wants.

1:09:15 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:16 Speaker 1 So saf, saf.

1:09:19 Speaker 3 Right. Um, when you said that when you presented like the two ways of under-- Like, let's say a person who said it was who... Like you said, it was, um, saying there's no self-image, then you said there's... You could say, um, "What's your... You, you're a Nefsheleh Kedoshah, that's your self-image." Or you could say like, "Why do you need a self-image?" So we're coming up to, um, Beis R next week, l'chatchilah ribah. And as we know, like, even though the Rebbe always said that the Rebbe Maharash is l'chatchilah ribah, but as we know, like, the Rebbe was really the one who, who, uh, i- introduced it to us and, uh, and l- and constantly, um, you know, lived with that. So how, how would you... Which-- Well, y- you said, you basically said already that it, that the l'chatchilah ribah is the way of saying like, "Why do you even need a self-image?" Um, can you spell out like why that is l'chatchilah ribah? I mean, b'klal, I think people struggle a lot, uh, you know, with l'chatchilah ribah. Like, what does that mean? Like, we, we just don't think about anything, and we just do things without thinking. Tayu, like what-- And I guess maybe especially in this context of like how you deal with your life's issues, which is where the Rebbe always uses l'chatchilah ribah. Can you spell out how-

1:10:31 Speaker 1 And for every person, it's different. It's like if you had to, you could do some pretty amazing things. Each person according to their whatever capacity. But you know that if it was an emergency, you could take care of it. So what are you waiting for the emergency for?

1:10:51 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:10:54 Speaker 1 If you know that you can be better, but you're waiting until Mashiach comes, and then if you know you can be better, well, what are you waiting? So l'chatchilah ribah means you know you can do more. Why, why are you not doing it? "No, that's for emergencies." What are you saving it for emergencies for?

1:11:23 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:28 Speaker 1 There's a ve- very good story about the, the Rebbe Mara- the Rebbe Mar- the Rebbe Rashab's brother, the Razah, bought a, a forest, invested in a forest, and it upset the Rebbe Rashab a lot because the Rebbe Maharash in the will said that his children should not go into business.

1:11:45 Speaker 3 Hmm. Interesting.

1:11:48 Speaker 1 Anyway, the, the forest burned down. The forest burned down, and his friends, the Rebbe, the, the Razah's friends were, like, very worried. His whole life savings. So they needed to go tell him, and they're trying to think, "How can we break it to him gently that the forest burned down?" So they came in, and they were, "Blah, blah, blah." The Rebbe Maharash-- The, the, uh, the Razah was very smart. He said to them, "What, what, what are you, what are you babbling? What did you come here for?" They said, "We came to tell you that your forest burned down." He says, "I know."

1:12:27 Speaker 3 He said, "You heard?"

1:12:28 Speaker 1 He said, "Yeah. Half hour ago, somebody told me."

1:12:31 Speaker 3 He says, "And you're not upset?"

1:12:33 Speaker 1 He says, "I was upset." And he said to one of them, "How come you're not upset?" He said, "About what?" "Your child was very sick." He says, "That was ten years ago." So the Razah said, "Oh, so it takes you ten years to get over it. It took me a half hour."

1:12:51 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:12:52 Speaker 1 If you know that in ten years you're gonna get over it, why wait a whole ten years?

1:12:57 Speaker 3 Right.

1:12:57 Speaker 1 That's l'chatchilah ribah.

1:12:59 Speaker 3 Right. And it sounds like, if I could, uh, if I can fuse it together, it sounds like this is very much tied in with the whole part of you viewing yourself as, you know, with-- as the neshamah, as a Nefsheleh Kedoshah.

1:13:11 Speaker 1 Or, or your own maximum.

1:13:15 Speaker 3 You're saying even if you don't use those words, a Nefsheleh Kedoshah. You're saying even on a, on a more simple-

1:13:18 Speaker 1 Even a Nefesh Habhamah can do better.

1:13:20 Speaker 3 Right. Right. Right.

1:13:22 Speaker 1 So figure out what your maximum is and do it. "No, that's for emergencies." What are you waiting?

1:13:29 Speaker 3 Right. Okay. Um, we have the, the book, Divinely Vulnerable. Oh, I thought it was Divine Vulnerability. No? Wasn't that, uh... Yeah, I thought I remember the seeing the... Um, the... So this is, this is a, a big theme of yours about, uh, about Hashem needing us.

1:13:54 Speaker 1 It's not mine.

1:13:58 Speaker 3 It's also yours. No? Based on what we said in the beginning about that-

1:14:01 Speaker 1 How I got stuck with it, I don't know.

1:14:03 Speaker 3 Uh, uh-huh. The... So the first question I would love to hear is, like, h- when did it or how did it become, like, so clear that it, that this is a Yefseitz?

1:14:21 Speaker 1 Well, first of all, this is the Rebbe's Chidush. If you wanna know what did the Rebbe add to all the previous Rebbeim, the Rebbe's Chidush is that whatever it says in a Ma'ayana that the mitzvah is Negeia in, uh, in, in, in the Malchus Shabbatzuos, Kemen Zogen that it's really Negeia Natzumus. Every one of the Rebbe's Ma'ayana was like that.

1:14:47 Speaker 3 Right. Right. Sure.

1:14:50 Speaker 1 So it became very clear to me because I started learning, teaching the, the women at Beis Chana. I f- I found, I found a, a, a block, a wall. "Oh, that's nice. Oh, very interesting. Wow, that's nice. Why should I do it? Why? I don't need it. It's you, it's great. I don't need it. So I found myself trying to convince him, "Yeah, you need it. You need it." It's not working. It's like, "You know, yeah, tradition. Your grandmother lit candles." My grandmother never lit no candles. So there was no angle, there was no nostalgia, mode. Yom Kippur. My grandfather was on the beach on Kippur. What are you-

1:15:45 Speaker 4 Right.

1:15:46 Speaker 1 It's like, so getting frustrated with trying to convince them that they need to keep mitzvahs, I suddenly realized they're right. They don't need it. In fact, that's a definition of a mitzvah. The defin- of a m- mi- the definition of a mitzvah is something you don't need.

1:16:14 Speaker 4 Why? Why is that the definition of a mitzvah?

1:16:15 Speaker 1 Well, there's no mitzvah to eat lunch. There's no mitzvah to go to sleep.

1:16:24 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:25 Speaker 1 'Cause you need to go to sleep, you'll go to sleep. Mitzvah means, "Nisht du darfst, der Aibish der darf." So when you're doing a mitzvah, it's taf zochen ibur to him.

1:16:40 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:42 Speaker 1 So why are we trying to convince everybody that they need it? In fact, the Taich, Alti Yika Avodma Mesham Shemesarev Al Menas LeKabul Pras means you don't need it.

1:16:56 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:57 Speaker 1 What, what are we missing here? W- how, how have we had a blind spot? No, it's all because we need it. Where are you coming from? Where were you raised?

1:17:15 Speaker 4 S- so the... Is this to... Well, there's two things. First of all, the, the obvious answer to that is that the Nefsha Bahamas doesn't need a mitzvah, but the Neshamah needs the mitzvah.

1:17:27 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:28 Speaker 4 Huh?

1:17:28 Speaker 1 Doesn't.

1:17:28 Speaker 4 Doesn't need a mitzvah? Why? Because it's part of Atzmus, which is, which is greater than mitzvahs? Okay.

1:17:36 Speaker 1 It's the Neshamah that makes the mitzvah.

1:17:39 Speaker 4 Right. Like we said before, the Darbe L'Yisro, the... Right.

1:17:43 Speaker 1 And even if there is a benefit to the Neshamah, it says in Olom Hamaamad, "The Neshamah doesn't need a tikkun, but it does need an aliyah." What's an aliyah for a Neshamah? You're a chelek eloka mi mal, but you need an aliyah to what?

1:18:02 Speaker 4 Right.

1:18:04 Speaker 1 Chelek is not Atzmus. You wanna go back to being one with Him.

1:18:14 Speaker 4 And that happens specifically when a Neshamah B'guf, v'nilum haza, does a mitzvah. Okay. So is, is this whole idea of... Well, and especially the way J- J- just said it, of, about chelek, um, Neshamah B'guf, v'nilum haza, tachnun a mitzvah, it sounds like it's very inherently tied into Nesav HaKadosh, Baruch Hu, Al Yisrael B'tachtei'nem. Um, is that a big part of, of the, of Hashem, of this concept of Hashem needing us and doing our mitzvahs, the po- the point of Yisrael B'tachtei'nem? 'Cause the que- the-

1:18:52 Speaker 1 We have to explain this also. What, what does it mean Adir B'tachtei'nem? Aibishter wants Adir B'tachtei'nem. He gave us the job of making him Adir B'tachtei'nem. What happens when the dirah is completed?

1:19:08 Speaker 4 The... Are you saying what ha- Like geulah, you're asking what happens by geulah?

1:19:13 Speaker 1 Well, what's geulah have to do with it?

1:19:15 Speaker 4 Well, that's the shlimus of the B'tachtei'nem, no? That's when everything is, is complete.

1:19:19 Speaker 1 What, what is the shlimus?

1:19:20 Speaker 4 When we s- when ha- we see Hashem in every area of the world, when Hashem is visible, is, uh, recognizable in every area of the world.

1:19:29 Speaker 1 So how is that Adirah? That's public, that's public exposure. The whole point of Adira-

1:19:36 Speaker 4 Uh-huh. Yeah

1:19:36 Speaker 1 ... is that in Adira, He can be Himself.

1:19:39 Speaker 4 Right.

1:19:40 Speaker 1 El-

1:19:40 Speaker 4 A private, uh, setting, you're saying, like-

1:19:43 Speaker 1 Right. So you're saying, okay, so the whole world will become a private setting, a, a, a shus ayochid, and there, the Aibishter will be able to be Himself. Oh, good. Good for Him. And where are we gonna live? People have this image. We have to make the Aibishter Adira where He can live, and then we'll go home. But it's a ridiculous idea. Adir B'tachtei'nem means, like if a man says to a woman, "Let's build a house." So she goes and, and buys lumber. He says, "What are you doing?" She says, "You wanna build a house." He says, "I mean, marry me." "I don't mean become a carpenter." Adir B'tachtei'nem is not a place where He can live without us. That's not Adira. It's a prison. Adir B'tachtei'nem means let's live together, not build me a house and then go home. That's such a terrible idea. You are the Adir B'tachtei'nem. He wants to be with you. Okay, you need a place. But not the place is the dealer, you're the dealer.

1:21:10 Speaker 4 Right. Uh, and-

1:21:11 Speaker 1 "V'shachanti b'seicham." I mean, come on. What-- This is such alef bets of y- of-

1:21:16 Speaker 4 Right. The, the, the question is, is there a big difference in Hashem wanting us versus Hashem needing us?

1:21:23 Speaker 1 No.

1:21:24 Speaker 4 It's the same thing?

1:21:25 Speaker 1 Uh-

1:21:26 Speaker 4 But human beings, it's not the same thing.

1:21:28 Speaker 1 One thing is even a bigger problem.

1:21:31 Speaker 4 What?

1:21:31 Speaker 1 Where does ratzon come from? What do you mean, "He had a ratzon"? Kinda wh- where does ratzon come from? He's bligvoll, he's ein safe, he's, he's, he's nitzki, he's, he's, he's shemuza dekula. All of a sudden he has a ratzon. Well, what is that?

1:21:55 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:56 Speaker 1 So saying that it's not a, it's not a, it's not a seydecheli and it's a ratzon. You're making it worse.

1:22:03 Speaker 4 But how, and how do you answer that question regarding the seydech? Like that it's shemuza dekula.

1:22:07 Speaker 1 Okay. But in the same way, you say, "No, He did it because of chesed." Where did chesed all of a sudden come from? And chesed dictates what He should do.

1:22:17 Speaker 4 Right.

1:22:19 Speaker 1 So ratzon is the beginning of giluyim. The shayele is, what, what happened all of a sudden with giluyim? There was only etzem. Not etzem, atzmus. There was only Him.

1:22:35 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:22:35 Speaker 1 Mit a molech varen giluyim? Why? What? When? Well, tzimtzum. Okay, fine. But you need a good explanation 'cause it shouldn't have happened. There shouldn't have been a ratzon. Taaveh is not a giluy.

1:22:56 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And-

1:23:01 Speaker 1 The only thing you can say about atzmus is a taaveh.

1:23:06 Speaker 4 And taaveh translates better as need versus want?

1:23:09 Speaker 1 No.

1:23:10 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:23:10 Speaker 1 Taaveh means it can't be any other way.

1:23:17 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:23:19 Speaker 1 It means it's, it's, it's atzmus.

1:23:21 Speaker 4 Right.

1:23:22 Speaker 1 It's atzmi. So I was arguing with some guy I said, "You don't like the word need? Fine, skip need. Mitzvahs are atzmius to Him." "Oh, yeah. Sure, sure."

1:23:36 Speaker 4 Right. Yeah.

1:23:36 Speaker 1 "So that means that He needs it." "No." Okay, hocks and chine.

1:23:40 Speaker 4 Right. So I think the biggest problem is when people associate need with our, our interpretation of need, like our experience of need.

1:23:47 Speaker 1 Just saying it in English makes everybody crazy.

1:23:49 Speaker 4 Right. Uh, right.

1:23:50 Speaker 1 'Cause that makes it real.

1:23:51 Speaker 4 Right. This goes back to the conversation.

1:23:53 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah. It's atzmus. It's atzmus, and then again, atzmus, and it's atz... You, would you hear what you're saying?

1:23:58 Speaker 4 Right.

1:24:02 Speaker 1 So the highest level we can get to, I think, is nimnah nimnois. What do you say about the Aibishter? He's big? No, He can be small also. He's strong? No, He can be weak also. Nimnah nimnois, He can be anything, and that's why you can't say He needs. Because He can need, not need. Nothing is absolute. That's Him. You wanna describe atzmus? I'll tell you how to describe it. Nothing is absolute 'cause he's nimnah nimnois. So the Rebbe says, "On my word, nimnah nimnois is not atzmus." Atzmus is He can be anything and doesn't have to be anything, and yet He is this. Uh, thus is atzmus.

1:25:05 Speaker 4 Right. Is that nim-nimnah nimnois being able to be metzimtzim in itself, into, into, uh-

1:25:11 Speaker 1 It's not a tzimtzum. Uh, thus is El. Tzimtzum is already giluyim.

1:25:18 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:25:20 Speaker 1 In order to be megaleh, he has to be metzimtzum.

1:25:22 Speaker 4 Right. Oh, so you're saying that the ni-- it's the nimnah nimnois and being able to be, not, not be megaleh, but be something, anything without, without even necessarily the giluy, which, which requires a tzimtzum.

1:25:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:25:39 Speaker 4 Right. Mm-hmm. Okay. I, uh, I, I was given a time, so I respect the time.

1:25:45 Speaker 1 Yes, and my phone is also- -buzzing.

1:25:48 Speaker 4 So I, I really appreciate. We, uh, we're middle of, uh... W-maybe we're gonna need to do a part two, but, uh-

1:25:53 Speaker 1 Let's, let's, uh-

1:25:56 Speaker 4 We, um, but in the meantime, I really, really appreciate, and, uh, the-- what-- If you could just finish off with a takeaway to the listeners in their involvement in Chassidus, in their... In what, what, what, uh, what a person should do a favor for themselves in getting involved in Chassidus.

1:26:18 Speaker 1 I just wanna mention that if you learn Chassidus, stop quoting. Stop sounding like it's not your business. You're quoting somebody else. The Rebbe says, "Stop it already." Is it your taaveh or, or the Rebbe's taaveh? Tell the world what you know. Don't blame it on the Rebbe. I just saw this clip of this woman crying, "Rebbe, we're depending on you. You have to bring Mashiach." And the Rebbe's like, really upset.

1:26:57 Speaker 4 Right. By dollars, right?

1:26:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:26:59 Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.

1:27:01 Speaker 1 If I'm the Rebbe, then I'm telling you, "You have to bring Mashiach." That's-- That, that is the Deira Sri. That's how the Rebbe started. "Don't think I'm gonna do it for you. . Nu, are you doing it or not?" No, the Rebbe says in Hasicha, "Stop it already."

1:27:33 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:27:34 Speaker 1 And . Many Balabatim complain every time that his-- their Shliach, their rabbi gets up to speak, it's-- the Rebbe says, "They don't wanna hear that. You're my rabbi. What do you say?" Well, in a moment, don't do that. It turns people off. Say what you have to say, and if they ask you, "How do you know that?" You say, "Well, heard it from the Rebbe." But say something. You're the rabbi. According to our tradition-- So don't do that. We believe-- Well, Orthodox rabbis. We believe-- Oh, you believe. You're not sure .

1:28:35 Speaker 4 Right.

1:28:36 Speaker 1 After thirty years of studying, you're still not sure. All right.

1:28:44 Speaker 4 All right. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And, uh, yeah, l'chaim. This should be a lot of food for thought for everyone to, uh, to think about how to, how to own Chassidus.

1:28:58 Speaker 1 Own it.

1:29:00 Speaker 4 L'chaim. Thank you.