הגישמאק שבחסידות – הרב נועם וגנר

00:00 Speaker 1 And this was a whole new thing 'cause until then I thought dveikus, and here the Rebbe says, "No, it's for the Aibishter."

00:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

00:06 Speaker 1 And this was a whole new thing. It's not just for me, so I should get gan eden. And it's not even so I should have dveikus.

00:12 Speaker 2 Right.

00:12 Speaker 1 But the concept of doing a mitzvah because this is what the Aibishter wants, and even the gishmak that I have, the spiritual gishmak that I have in the mitzvah that... And that took me. It was like a whole new world that opened up, and that's when I just got sold to learn the Rebbe sichas and to learn a little more. I was before bar mitzvah time. You know when you're at a good toich indika farbrengen and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs: Conversations in Chassidus, a podcast farbrengen where we have real conversations about real Chassidus. And I have a tremendous chose to sit here with my uncle, Rabbi Noam Wagner, um, mostly known from yeshiva in South Africa currently. But it's been a, a long journey. I remember already when I was a kid, it was, uh, it was Venice and, uh, Mexico, I think I, I remember also as a child. Before that, there was also Melbourne, I think, or Sydney. No, Venice and Mexico were the two places-

01:17 Speaker 2 Oh, that's it? Okay

01:17 Speaker 1 ... after I married.

01:18 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Um, and there's the yeshiva, and then there's the summer program, which also gets a lot of, uh, baruch HaShem, positive, um, feedback and positive, uh, acknowledgement. Bar-- I, I have, uh, some of my former students who went there and really, really enjoyed. Really, uh, grew a lot in their learning and their gishmak. And, um, what I would love to explore with you, what I'd love to farbreng with you about is specifically you, you clearly, baruch HaShem, have this knack of making Chassidus, and I would say even broader, Chassidishkeit, which obviously means Yiddishkeit and HaShem and Rebbe and Torah and mitzvahs, et cetera, but that whole package, um, exciting and, and gishmak for, for bachurim. Um, and, uh, you know, not, not, not, not even limited to Metzuyonim. Bachurim who, uh, you know, not necessarily are coming with their own gishmak and previous positive experiences. I, um, I know some of these bachurim. I know quite a few of these bachurim. And lav davka that they all have the most positive experiences before, but they, they all look back-- I mean, many of them look back and really pinpoint those summers or those years in your yeshiva with, uh, with a vibrancy, with a chayis. So clearly there's something there, so I'd love to explore that with you. But, um, 'cause I'm on the inside a little bit in terms of your family, um, let's go back to, uh, it's not a secret you didn't grow up Lubavitch. So I think that's actually a good

02:48 Speaker 2 place to start with, uh, however much you would wanna share of your own, uh, personal, uh, uh, journey coming to Lubavitch.

02:55 Speaker 1 Okay. So that's an interesting, uh... I'll start from... Is it time would be sometime between my, before my bar mitzvah is when I really started. I mean, I had, I had an interest probably growing up, being that I knew my uncles, the shochers who were Lubavitch, and then eventually my brother Akiva, and then your father, and so there, there definitely was an interest. Um, but the general thing, and it's interesting, my father used to always tell us. He said it, it... His, his outlook was always, "There's a lot of paths in Yiddishkeit. Why do you wanna choose davka this one? You have a certain way. You grew up a certain way. There's nothing wrong. Every place, every path is a good one." And I always really took that in. Every path is good. If you have to choose one, that means the other paths aren't good enough.

03:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:50 Speaker 1 So you can't choose something just because that's the way it is. There has to be something that's pulling you, and that's always very nice. I always had a little bit of a outlook, and I look at Lubavitch was very interesting. And obviously when I was by the Rebbe, it was also something which very much pulled and whatever. But the question was, do I have to learn Chassidus? Do I have to do the things? What-- You c- you can do whatever it is. In other words, if you're doing something, there has to be a reason.

04:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

04:16 Speaker 1 There has to be something that's pulling you, something that's a reason why specifically this is what's gonna work.

04:22 Speaker 2 Right.

04:23 Speaker 1 I remember later, before I changed my nusach, it took a long time, even after I started getting involved with Chassidus, because changing the nusach means there's a reason.

04:31 Speaker 2 Right.

04:32 Speaker 1 And then there, there... That's, that's later in the journey.

04:34 Speaker 2 Right. W-- So go back to when you're talking about, um, that you started thinking that there has to be something to, a reason to change. So how old are you then? How old-

04:42 Speaker 1 So I w- w-- This probably, I was started exploring it, I was probably 11, 11 or 12 years old.

04:50 Speaker 2 What is, was an 11-year-old thinking?

04:52 Speaker 1 So I'll tell you what-

04:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah

04:53 Speaker 1 ... I'll tell you what happened, and it was very interesting. And I remember this, I remember this very clearly. I remember this one specific time. I was in Yeshivah Torat Emet. We were then, at that time, it was the old, the old building on, on Lawrence Street. Lawrence Avenue.

05:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:09 Speaker 1 If you know what I'm talking about. Over there on Lawrence Avenue. And so there wasn't enough space. They used to have also, they bought a house nearby, which we were, we were learning in that house. And there it was, it was, uh, recess time. We're in the playground. So it, it must have been in-

05:24 Speaker 2 Just to clarify-

05:25 Speaker 1 That's a-

05:25 Speaker 2 ... this is the Litvish elementary?

05:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:26 Speaker 2 Okay.

05:27 Speaker 1 Litvish, Litvish. Chassidish it's called officially, but-

05:29 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

05:29 Speaker 1 ... yeah, it, it-

05:30 Speaker 2 Oh, okay

05:30 Speaker 1 ... officially it's Chassidish-

05:31 Speaker 2 All right. I didn't know that. Uh-huh

05:32 Speaker 1 ... but it, it, well, th- yeah, that's, it's, it's clow- cloudy, which everybody looks at these things like Litvish.

05:36 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

05:37 Speaker 1 And, um, I remember we were, it was recess time. We were outside on the, on, in playing. It must have been... That's something, it was either sixth or seventh grade, which means it must have been at the time 11, 11 or 12 years old.

05:51 Speaker 2 Yeah. So.

05:53 Speaker 1 And I remember this thing, just this is what sparked it by me sort of. A squirrel crawled up onto the electric pole and crawled up onto the wires or whatever, and one of the kids made, like, a comment, "Oh, look, if we would climb up onto these wires, we would be on our way to Gan Eden." That was the, that was the comment. Now, to take it, the idea in school, what they taught us and what they teach kids is that the purpose of life is for Gan Eden.

06:24 Speaker 2 Right.

06:25 Speaker 1 That's why you're here in life because, and then there's Na'amat Aphesera. The reason why you need it is because this way there's some type of, uh, there's, there's a contest. It's not just you're getting it for free, but you're working for it, and then eventually you get Gan Eden, and that's really why we're alive in this world. And I started thinking, if this is the only reason we're alive in this world, for Gan Eden, what would be so terrible to get Gan Eden now already? You know, you worked a little bit on it. You did your thing. You have this Na'amat Aphesera, and who says I even care about the Na'amat Aphesera? You know, that it's bread of shame because I didn't work for it. I... And I remember starting to think about it, and it, it, it started, and it was a thought which I started really trying to figure out what is going on. And, you know, we, we had in class, and you learn the Mishnas or Shadam or this or that. It's all about getting Gan Eden. And it was sometime before my bar mitzvah, and I decided to start- try to explore what is Hasidus. Because I got, for my bar mitzvah, I got one gift was a Shiur Mesivata Tanya.

07:27 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:27 Speaker 1 Another gift I got was a Sefer HaReBaSh, and I thought, if I want to explore Hasidus, I have to start from the beginning. Let's go back to the Baal Shem Tov. And I started reading Sefer HaReBaSh, and I remember it was something I did quietly because I knew that nobody would be very excited, not the, not the other people who don't want me to be learning Hasidus, and not either the Lubavitcher uncles or relatives because what are you doing with learning this stuff? You should be learning better. But that was where I started. I wanted to see what does the Baal Shem Tov say? And I'm learning it, and I was very... It intrigued me, what I was learning over there, because it was all about Vekus. A new thing which I've never seen before. I heard about Gan Eden. You're here to get Gan Eden, whatever Gan Eden means. Here it was about you can do a mitzvah and have a Chayas in doing the mitzvah because you feel like you're connecting to the Aibishter.

08:14 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:15 Speaker 1 And it was an intriguing thing because the Baal Shem Tov in the Sefer HaReBaSh at least is very much about Vekus and Vekus and all these things, and I was really into it, and I started really reading it a lot. I used to search for things, and I remember I'd get up for Tikkun Chatzos or whatever it was, you know, to try and get that, that, that feeling and that excitement. I said, "Well, that means there's something else besides Gan Eden," because in this world you can also have Vekus.

08:39 Speaker 2 Right.

08:41 Speaker 1 And that was where I took it, and until one day I learned a Sicha. Sicha-

08:46 Speaker 2 If I could interrupt you just-

08:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:47 Speaker 2 Did you have anyone that you were talking to about this at the time that, uh-

08:51 Speaker 1 No.

08:52 Speaker 2 No.

08:52 Speaker 1 Not really, 'cause that's, that's just my nature. I'm always afraid what will people think and how will they think about it. I try and keep things very on my own, and I, I don't like to go over it 'cause, you know, they're gonna tell me that this isn't good, and they're gonna tell me whatever it is. So I... Everything was really, in a certain sense, on my own.

09:08 Speaker 2 Wow.

09:08 Speaker 1 I discussed it maybe with some of my friends my age, but that was, that was the way it worked.

09:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:14 Speaker 1 And then I, I, I do remember also starting to look a little bit in Shiur Mesivata Tanya when I saw that Tanya is like Ichidus with Yalta Rebbe, I realized, yes, so then there's something more than just learning from the Baal Shem Tov because here you're getting into Ichidus, but that was... But then there was a Sicha. And it's, it's, it's in, it's in, it's in Chelek Gimel, I believe, part-- probably Parashat Tzav, where it says, "Chelev Mizbechi Takdir Hamizbe- Mizbecha." And the Rebbe explains it there. One vort, a line, where the Rebbe says that when you do a mitzvah, Mizbechi, so it's not only the Chelev of the Gashmius, the Gishmak that you have in your, in your physical things that you have to give over to the Aibishter. Even the Chelev Mizbechi, the Gishmak that you have in a mitzvah, Takdir Hamizbechi, you have to give that over to the Aibishter also. In other words, it's only for the Aibishter, for nothing else.

10:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

10:07 Speaker 1 And this was a whole new thing, 'cause until then I thought Vekus, and here the Rebbe says, "No, it's for the Aibishter."

10:12 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:13 Speaker 1 And this was a whole new thing. It's not just for me, so I should get Gan Eden. And it's not even so I should have Vekus.

10:19 Speaker 2 Right.

10:19 Speaker 1 But the concept of doing a mitzvah because this is what the Aibishter wants, and even the Gishmak that I have, the spiritual Gishmak that I have in the mitzvah, that... And that took me. It was like a whole new world that opened up, and that's when I just got sold to learn the Rebbe Sichas and to learn a little more. That was before bar mitzvah time. And I remember starting to learn it, and the next time that I really saw this Nekuda very strongly, it was-- Because this was-- My bar mitzvah was around Taf Shin Mem Zain. So then I went to a Litvish Yeshiva in Yerushalayim where I wasn't allowed to learn Hasidus officially, and it was a very interesting place because I came in there. And it was my choice. I wanted to go. My parents asked me because the Rosh Yeshiva was raising money. So he came to my, uh, father's house, and he saw me over there. He says, "Why don't you send your kid? He's turning bar mitzvah now." It was a mesivta. "Send him to my yeshiva." And so my father said, "Do you wanna go?" I said, "For sure. I want to go there. It's Yisroel at this age and whatever it is. It's amazing." So we went, I went, I went there. We went with it. As we started from Taf Shin Mem Ches, I went there. And, uh, and, and it was officially a yeshiva from Mitzuyon, and they called it the Ponovitch of Yerushalayim. And

11:31 Speaker 1 it was-- They, they had, I think for each year, they had like three hundred, uh, three hundred applications, and they took thirty, thirty bochurim. So here I, I think I really was taken more for the money, whatever- ... but I'm not sure of that. I mean, he, of course, sang my praises to my father, yeah, 'cause he asked me a question in a test of this, and I knew the answer and whatever it is. He said, "You know," says, "Think of this as again." But, but, but I remember before I went there, and it was, it was, it was actually the Shabbos before I went, so they asked me to give a speech in shul, in the shul, shul where we learned, we used to... Where we davened, we used to... And so I prepared a Sicha, and I came to give it, and my father realized that I was chazering a Sicha. So he says to me, "You know, you're gonna go there." And you're gonna start learning Chassidus, that's the end of me.

12:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, carry-

12:14 Speaker 1 Carry, Shaliv over there. He says, "Please don't learn, don't learn Chassidus over there all the time." So I said, "Okay, fine." I accepted it. But I still had, I felt that Chassidus. I remember I went in with a tale of Eliyahu Joseph Yitzchak, used to read the, the letters in the back.

12:28 Speaker 2 Mm.

12:29 Speaker 1 I knew them by heart, the letters. And then the next time I already brought a Tanya and did a little bit. And I remember when I first came, the Rosh Yeshiva stopped me. I was mamish. I was-- I'd just come there. I'm a, I'm a 13-year-old away from home. It was Taf Shin Mem Ches was the first year I was there, a 13-year-old away from home. And, uh, a little homesick and like, you know, not little, it's, it's also the language is different. It's all in Hebrew over there and whatever. It's very, uh, Israeli. And I used to daven long Shemoneh Esreh. And the Rosh Yeshiva waits for me to finish Shemoneh Esreh, and he comes up to me, "Nu, when do you go, uh, when do you go to Chabad to learn Chassidus?" I said, "Me? Chassidus? What are you talking about?" He says, "No, you don't go to Chabad and learn Shiur of Chassidus?" I said, "No, what?" He said, "Okay, very good." Because and he, and he explained to me actually why. He says, "Because in the Yeshiva, they used to learn Mishnayis. They used to have a Shiur from Mishnayis." And he went to his Rosh Yeshiva, whoever it is, and he asked him, um, you know, about the Shiur Mishnayis, and he told him, "No. If bachurim learn Mishnayis, then it becomes too shitchi. Becomes too, um, topical, too much, uh, general, and, and, and they can't properly have, uh, Iyun in Gemara if they learn Mishnayis."

13:48 Speaker 2 Right.

13:49 Speaker 1 So he tells me, and it's the same thing with Chassidus, 'cause Chassidus, and what does he understand about Chassidus? But Chassidus, he says, "Chassidus is very, um, it's very generalized, and it doesn't l- allow you to, uh, focus in, in, uh, understanding and whatever it is. That's why you shouldn't learn Chassidus."

14:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

14:04 Speaker 1 I remember at a later times, I used to already go learn a little bit of Chassidus. And he sees me at night. I was on my way to learn some Chassidus, and he says, "Nu, what do you do at night after Seder?" I said, "I learn Mishnayis." So he gave me a whole, uh, Drash about Mishnayis, and he forgot about the other parts. But this was... And, and I remember this Taf Shin Mem Tes, that's the second year I was there in Yeshiva, and somehow they were selling, they had just... The Rebbe was Maggia Meimar for Purim. This was in general the time when the Rebbe started being Maggia a lot more. Mamad was more Mem Tes.

14:37 Speaker 2 Right.

14:38 Speaker 1 Zayin Mem Ches wasn't as much Mem Tes, but Purim Mem Tes, I think, is when I started really-

14:42 Speaker 2 Yad Aleph.

14:42 Speaker 1 Yad Aleph. And I remember I had to pay, I don't know, five shekel, whatever it was to buy it, and I bought the Meimar, and I learnt it. And I was completely taken by that because again, it was the same Nekuda over there. You don't do it for Dveikus. You don't do it for any other purpose. You do it 'cause that's what the Aibishter wants. 'Cause there's an Aibishter, and that's what he wants. In other words, that is the whole purpose of everything.

15:04 Speaker 2 That, that was the first Meimar you learned?

15:06 Speaker 1 That was the first Meimar of the Rebbe.

15:07 Speaker 2 Wow.

15:07 Speaker 1 I learnt. I learnt it by myself. I didn't even... I, I didn't learn with anyone 'cause there was someone I used to learn sometimes 'cause, because he was away. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I learnt it on my own, and I went, I learnt it. I went to Bnei Brak for, for the first day Purim for Yad Aleph, and I learnt it in the shul over there 'cause Purim everybody's busy having fun.

15:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

15:27 Speaker 1 So it was empty, so I was able to learn it. And then I brought it back to Yerushalayim the next day, and I learnt it in Yeshiva. I closed the door, and the bachurim hapshaps that I wasn't with the whole parties where they were, you know. And, and they, they found me in the room, and they grabbed the Meimar, and they burnt it, and it was a whole simcha over there for them. They, they, they burnt around, and I got it back then. But I had that Meimar for a very long time.

15:51 Speaker 2 Wow.

15:51 Speaker 1 And that was something I learnt for a lot. That was the Meimar which really... 'Cause it's, it's not just a Purim Meimar. It's really a Meimar about the whole idea of Yiddishkeit, about Torah and mitzvahs and what's the point-

16:02 Speaker 2 Right

16:02 Speaker 1 ... of doing it all.

16:03 Speaker 2 Over there, it goes through the, the pul ha-guf on the neshamah and the, the dibtechalim, right?

16:09 Speaker 1 And it's mitzvahs first-

16:11 Speaker 2 Right

16:11 Speaker 1 ... and then Torah, and then how it works with Torah.

16:13 Speaker 2 Between learning Torah, Halakha.

16:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

16:14 Speaker 2 Right. So it's very aligned with what you're saying about-

16:17 Speaker 1 Extremely, very much, and it, it gave me... 'Cause that was looking for all my life, and I, I remember learning in the, in the, in the Litvish Yeshivas. It bothered me. We learned Gemara. It's beautiful. The questions and answer and a pilpul and everything, but why? I get it, 'cause you're supposed to, and we-- that's how we were brought up. You have to learn Torah. But what does it mean? What does it mean when I learn Torah? And this concept, the Rebbe explains lashmah.

16:40 Speaker 2 Right.

16:40 Speaker 1 There is a lashmah is the shema Torah. Not for Dveikus, not even for Dveikus, just because it's the Torah, which is Chochmah, Zecher Zeken of the Aibishter, and that's what you're learning. And that, that was something which really just took me away and, and all, I mean, till today, I try to, to live with that, to, to, to learn. But learning Chassidus, it was just... And especially the Rebbe's Chassidus was even in a certain way more than anything else that gave that Nekuda. There's a lot of mamarim from the Rebbe like that, that it's all about just to serve the Aibishter, and that's the whole purpose. That was what took me to Chassidus, and slowly I started coming. I, I came to the Rebbe. I mean, I, uh, I went one time. There was, there was two things I wrote. It was actually around then that I wrote my first letter to the Rebbe. Like, I had written, so to speak. I sent my bar mitzvah invitation. When I got bar mitzvah, I sent it to the Rebbe. I got an answer from Rebbe on bar mitzvah and whatever. But here was myself. I myself sat down, and I took a air letter, 'cause there was air letters that were there for me to write home.

17:43 Speaker 2 Mm.

17:43 Speaker 1 So I took one of them, and I decided to write a letter. It was Taf Shin Mem Tes. It was in Adar Rishon.

17:49 Speaker 2 This is the year before Purim.

17:50 Speaker 1 This was right, this was before Purim, Yad Aleph Adar Rishon.

17:53 Speaker 2 Wow.

17:54 Speaker 1 I don't remember why. I don't know why exactly then. It was also, you have to understand the, the, the, the, the winds that were going then in Eretz Yisrael. There was the-

18:01 Speaker 2 Gimel

18:01 Speaker 1 ... the elections. Yeah.

18:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:03 Speaker 1 So it was a very, very strong anti-Chabad, and it was, like, very powerful. Like, I had to remember 'cause on the streets there was pictures of the Rebbe with the thing. I stole some of them. I had them under my mattress. Meshugana checked for it. He was looking. He searched. After, when, when I left Yeshiva, my roommate told me, he said he didn't tell me beforehand, but Mashgiach one time took the roommates, and he put them as guards that I don't come in the middle, and he pretty much went through all my stuff to see. There was nothing else that he was looking for. He wanted to find any Tanya or any, like, Chassidus or pictures of the Rebbe. He pretty much went through everything, the suitcases and the cupboards and everything. That was all he was looking for. Yeah. Like, other guys had other things that they would be looking for. This is what he was looking for. This is what he needed to find. And, and it was a very interesting... So I, I felt a need. I need to write to the Rebbe. It was, like, a very... I even remember actually what took me then at that time just to go through. What, what grabbed me then was I went my first Farbrengen, I think, that I went. The Rebbe was tov shemem dalet. I was ten years old, and my father took me for Yitzhak's kid. We were in Monsey for a bar mitzvah. And he met a friend of

19:13 Speaker 1 his, I think, who said he's going to the Rebbe for Yitzhak. It was Friday. So they went for Thursday night and for Shabbos. I remember he took me with. Why? I don't know. I was, I was then, uh, I was, I was ten years old. Uh, and he took me with- Also for Shabbos? I went for Shabbos. Okay. And we had Thursday night was the Farbrengen. So Thursday night, I remember we left in the middle. My father said, "Oh, I have to go to sleep," and whatever. That was the excuse. But Shabbos day was a Farbrengen. I remember that Farbrengen. The Rebbe was like-- I, I didn't-- I understood Yiddish, but I couldn't understand what was following and what was, what happening. I remember the Rebbe was very screaming about something, and I asked my father, "What is it?" And he said that the Rebbe is screaming, how come they didn't make a Farbrengen Friday night? Hmm. I remember the, the roishim that I made, you could see that the Rebbe was, like, mamash demanding something. Mm-hmm. And the, the thing was how come there was no Farbrengen Friday night. This is the one with the Mashpiyim and the-- No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's them. Yeah, that was mem dalet. Uh-huh. That was, it was the, the Shabbos day. Right. We had a pretty good place 'cause my father had friends, 'cause he learned for a year in, in Bedford and Dean. So he had friends. I remember we went to Sam Melamed because

20:15 Speaker 1 he was, he was, uh, he was, he was my father's roommate or something in- Oh, really? ...in Bedford and Dean. So we went to his house to eat cholent before the Farbrengen. And then, uh, there was the Farbrengen. So I had in my mind always that Farbrengen. And then I remember when, when, when Yeshiva, this is mem tes, and the bachur were arguing if you're allowed to clap on Shabbos. Mm-hmm. Uh, this was like, you know, this was bringing proofs, this and that. And I remember I said, "Yeah, for sure you're allowed to clap on Shabbos. How do I know? I can't say." Why? 'Cause in my mind, I can remember it clearly, the Rebbe clapping by Sheiva Rabeinu Zot HaMikdash. I said, "I know you're allowed to clap on Shabbos." And but once that seer came into my mind, I felt a strong want, uh, a desire. I wanted to connect. So I wrote a letter to the Rebbe. I wrote a letter to the Rebbe that was, uh... Now, my parents had told me, "Don't go to the mikvah every day. Friday you're allowed to go to the mikvah, not every day, because, uh, otherwise in Yeshiva they'll make you, they'll make you problems." Right. By the way, they told me also then, this is just an interesting thing. They said, "If anybody asks you what type of Chassid you are, you say I'm a Chassid of the Debreciner." So sure enough, you know, over there you have to understand it's Yeshivas, Litvish

21:29 Speaker 1 Yeshivas, so nobody... Everyone davens Nusach Ashkenaz, and we daven at home Nusach Sefard. Right. So Nusach Sefard means you're a Chassid. Right. So they're asking me right away, "What type of Chassid are you?" I said what I was told to say, "A Chassid of Debreciner." They say, "Oh, you're a Lubavitcher." I said, "Okay, that's what it means." That was it. He said, "A Chassid of Debreciner must be a Lubavitcher." That's the only way that they could understand it. But, uh, so, so, so I, I decide... So Friday when I went to the mikvah, that's when I started a letter after mikvah. Took a whole week to write the letter. It was a very... It was a short letter. It wasn't so long, but I was very-- every word was, was iz gir cheshbon. Whatever I would write to the Rebbe, I was writing on my own. I didn't know what... And then I signed my name only after going to the mikvah the next Friday. Wow. And then I put it in the mailbox, and I remember the whole time I felt as if I'm traveling to the Rebbe now. Like, my... I, and I was thinking, "Oh, where am I?" And I put a, a, uh, return address for a letter back. I couldn't put... Where would I put? So I had a chavrusa by night, and he was a little bit shayeich to Chassidim, whatever it is. And over there also because they hated all the Chassidim, so the Chassidim very much banded

22:43 Speaker 1 together. Right. It wasn't just like Lubav-- It was everybody. Whoever was a Chassid, Besheim Chassid, Yechuna, was, was... We, we used to have sometimes little Farbrengens together, a little whatever it is, like, 'cause there was a very general- Like fellow bachur. Yeah, fellow bachur. Yeah. We felt like a, a, a, um, a, a, a common denominator, uh, amongst the Chassidim. So, so, um, when I... So this, this bachur was also was my, was, was my chavrusa. So I told him, "Can I ask your father, can I write your a- address for the turn?" Actually, he lived in Yerushalayim. So he asked his father, father said, "For sure," whatever. But then he was-- This friend was the whole time was telling me, "You know, I think you're a little bit, uh, you're, you're living in dreamland. What do you think? The Rebbe has time to give you an answer? The Rebbe is so busy with all kinds of things and with, uh, life and death situations," whatever it is, because, you know, you think... He, he was basically telling me, "Don't get upset if you don't get an answer." Now, I had read in a book that the Rebbe always answers letters, which the truth is at that time wasn't begashmiyus true, 'cause at that time, the Rebbe didn't send answers, generally speaking, on a regular letter. Right. The Rebbe already gave a klal, you know, how it works. But I had read this, and I said, "No, I'm gonna get an answer." And he was

23:53 Speaker 1 like all the time, you know, "Don't be upset if you don't." So anyway, this was, I sent it out. It was Yud Aleph Adar Rishon. It was at, uh, Hebrew year. Went by Adar Rishon, went by Adar Sheni. We went home for Pesach. I came back. It was a year already. There was still no answer. Hmm. I remember we were sitting Lag BaOmer night. Lag BaOmer, they used to close the, uh, shades in Yeshiva. They used to put, like, uh, close the windows because across the street there was a Sefer HaChassidim, and they made a, they made a bonfire, and they didn't want it to be

25:15 Speaker 3 from the Rebbe." 'Cause his father was very excited, a letter from the Rebbe. I said, "Don't bring it in. Bring it tomorrow." I felt like I needed... And the truth, I didn't even go to the mikveh before I did to them 'cause I went to mikveh only on Fridays, but I felt like I need to prepare myself to get an answer from the Rebbe. So he brought it the next morning, and all the Chassidim, kilur, were all young boys. We were we were thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old. And, and they all got together. They got wind that there's a letter from the Rebbe. And, uh, and so we start-- Shacharit started at seven o'clock. So he came in, I think, at six thirty or something, and we all came together, closed the door. They brought some, uh, some of the liquor that, that they drink over there, the, the sweet liquor.

25:59 Speaker 4 Yeah.

25:59 Speaker 3 To say L'Chaim. I told them in Lubavitch, we don't say L'Chaim before davening. They said L'Chaim, and we opened the letter. It was very interesting. It was a letter. It was an envelope, the Rebbe's envelope with the red and blue lines around the, the envelope, and it said the Rebbe's name on the envelope. And then the, the, the, the stationery was from Maskiros. And, uh, it was a simple letter. It said, "Pan Shulchan, Yem Yud Aleph, Adar Rishon, Niskabel." It was dated chaf tes adar sheni, the letter. Taf shin mem tes. "Pan Shulchan, Yem Yud Aleph, Adar Rishon, Niskabel. Vikar Beis Ros, Netzin Kedoshim, Miadmor." And that's it. And the, the, the signature of the maskir. But they were a little let down, kilur. They were expecting thing. I also-- 'cause I, I had asked. I was hoping that the Rebbe will tell me, "Go to Chassidishe yeshiva," or something. I don't know. But... And it took me a while to realize, no, the Rebbe is basically saying... 'Cause I didn't write a pan, I wrote a letter. And a lot of times you have a, a michdav, a pan. If you say a michdav something, it's just a pan.

26:56 Speaker 4 Right.

26:56 Speaker 3 The Rebbe's saying, "The rest doesn't matter. We got, we got your, we got your pan, and it, it's..." A-and it was very-- And it's interesting it took that long also to get there, but that was the thing. And that was an answer, and that's when I wanted very much again to go to the Rebbe. And, uh, the summer I went home for a little bit, and your father was taking, he had, uh, he had-

27:22 Speaker 4 He had mem tes.

27:22 Speaker 3 My older brother. It was mem, mem tes.

27:25 Speaker 4 Yeah. Okay.

27:25 Speaker 3 He had a camp for, for, for teenage boys.

27:28 Speaker 4 In Toronto, I think, right?

27:29 Speaker 3 It was called... Uh, in Toronto.

27:31 Speaker 4 Toronto.

27:31 Speaker 3 Toronto.

27:31 Speaker 4 Toronto.

27:31 Speaker 3 It's called... It was called, uh, it was called Limudei Hashem.

27:35 Speaker 4 Okay.

27:35 Speaker 3 The camp. Camp Limudei Hashem for teenage boys, for non, uh, the public school kids or whatever. Shabbos before

28:11 Speaker 4 You didn't go back there to yeshiva?

29:25 Speaker 3 No, yeshiva was finished.

29:26 Speaker 4 Oh.

29:26 Speaker 3 It was three, three years with a

29:28 Speaker 4 Oh, so you're saying through Tosh Nan to-

29:29 Speaker 3 After that, so I, I, I already wanted to go to Lubavitch Yeshiva. My parents said come to Toronto for a year.

29:35 Speaker 4 So this is after Tosh Nan?

29:36 Speaker 3 Tosh Nan. Tosh Nan Alef.

29:38 Speaker 4 Right.

29:38 Speaker 3 I was there, um, mem chet, mem tes nun.

29:41 Speaker 4 Right.

29:41 Speaker 3 They said, "Come back." So I came. I was by Rabbi Brodsky, but then it was, it was already a... Over there, it was less of a... Like the Isnagdos over there came more from the f-friends.

29:51 Speaker 4 Right.

29:52 Speaker 3 From the other Bochurim. Like from the Hanhalah, they weren't against. They said, "You wanna, you wanna learn Chassidus? Learn Chassidus." There was no issues with it. And then I went into the Rebbe a few times 'cause, uh, went in then for Chanukah. I went in the Chanukah. I went in, uh, um, Shevoos. I went in before Han-- already Tishra. I went in for Simchat Torah. And there was like a few. They had Purim time also, uh, Adar. So it was already a few, uh, a few times going into Rebbe, and then the next year I went. I came to Alef Torah. That was already-

30:23 Speaker 4 Nunbeis.

30:24 Speaker 3 Yeah, it was Nunbeis, yeah. The summer of nun-- Elul, Nun Alef, Nunbeis, yeah. So that's just in short where the story went.

30:32 Speaker 4 Right. Okay. So that's, uh, that's, that's a lot to unpack just there. Um, to apply this, so to speak, so for, so for you, it was very clear the, the, the power of Chassidus from the beginning of that because you came from a very different culture, and therefore, there was a direct, like, you know, void or difference, contrast that you felt that Chassidus was coming to offer. So now fast forward and you're, you know, you're a shoshiba and you're a mashpia and you're trying to f-- you know, give over that power of Chassidus to, to Bochurim. And already you're, you're-- already you're fighting an uphill battle because they don't even have that contrast.

31:17 Speaker 3 Mm.

31:18 Speaker 4 Um, and, and something that was so powerful for you, so meaningful to you, to a regular Bochur goes up in Lubavitch, and that is, you know, we grow up from when we're really little about dir b'tachoinim and about the, you know, going on shlichus and doing, you know, helping another Yid and, and, and everything is, is about... N-n-n-there's not a lot of, of focus on gan eden and on shleimus of yourself, and even like you said, dveikus but for yourself. Um, th-those things would be a little bit more foreign to a regular Bachur Bochur. So even let's say that nekuda, how, how do you-- how would you be able to give that over to a-- I-I'm saying to Bochurim 'cause that's what you deal with, but technically even a, a regular Bachur would be thinking for themselves.

32:02 Speaker 3 Mm.

32:02 Speaker 4 You know.

32:03 Speaker 3 I tell this to Bochurim, and the truth is, I think it's not just Bochurim. I think it's a Bochur thing, but it's-- I always give them the mashal I had, for example, just to give you for-- as Bochurim an example. We have every year a Mivtza Yo'shvat. If you learn a certain amount of gemara, you get tested on it, and it's a lot of gemara you have to learn, Baal Pe or whatever, and you get a free ticket to the Rebbe. I mean, we had it when we were-- we had it originally in Venice, then we had it in Mexico. Those were easier places. When we came to South Africa, I thought it's not gonna happen anymore. And then we said, "Why not?" And the truth is, there were times it didn't make sense. I mean, people thought I'm crazy, and they're right. But-

32:42 Speaker 4 Sometimes at the airlines thought you were crazy.

32:45 Speaker 3 But the idea of it was they would learn a lot of Chassidus. And I remember a few things. I mean, I remember one Bochur was in Mexico, actually. This is years ago. The Bochur-- I, I used to always farbrengen with the Bochurim. You get high on Chassidus. It was like an idea. The Rebbe says you get drunk on Chassidus. You know, the concept of Purim, that you say l'chaim on Chassidus and whatever. And I remember this. It was before Yo'shvat. There was one Bochur who was pushut working hard and learning gemara and whatever. And it was a Thursday night. We were farbrengen, and he was busy learning a Maimon. I don't remember which, maybe even a Shaftei or Shalom or something. He was pushut, like sitting and hard of thinking. One o'clock in the morning comes the farbrengen, and he's like pushut looking like... He says, "Wow, now I understand what it means to be high on Chassidus." And, and the truth is, what, what, what ends up happening is a lot of times I get the same question from Bochurim. They say, "Wow, this stuff is so gishmak. How come I never... "

33:42 Speaker 4 Hmm.

33:42 Speaker 3 "How come-- What happened to me before?"

33:45 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

33:45 Speaker 3 And I asked the Bochur, "What do you mean? You grew up in a liter and whatever it is, and you learned Chassidus, and you have everything. You, you had it per-- Like, what happened? What are you saying you never had it before?" He said, "Never. I never. It was never like..." And I tell them a simple thing. Can you imagine if you were-- from the day you were born, from the day you were a little kid, your mother always forced you to eat ice cream. And it was like a meshugaas pleasure. You need to eat ice cream and push it like a thing. You would hate it with a passion. And that would be the last thing. No, never ice cream, never ice cream. And then one day your friend comes and says, "Why don't we go out for ice cream?" You say, "Ice cream? Are you crazy? What do you mean ice cream? Why would I wanna go out for ice cream?" He says, "It's good." He says, "But it's disgusting. I hate it." And he convinces you, and you go out and you taste it, and you say, "It tastes good. How come I never knew that?" What do you mean you never knew that? You're being forced it your whole life. But you're being forced it your whole life rather than being given it.

34:40 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

34:40 Speaker 3 And that's part of the thing, and I think it's not just Bochurim, and I think it's sometimes Yungeleit also. We have sometimes this thing of like, you know, gashmius is, is, is cool and, and, and, and Yid-Yid-Yiddishkeit is something which we're being forced down our throats, so we-- If we take a minute and learn Chassidus, it's gishmak. You know, there's the Alter Rebbe's-- the story with the Alter Rebbe, and I always used to tell this to the Bochurim, and, and I think it's something which-- The Alter Rebbe came to a town, and he gave a clap on the bimah. He said, "Time ur you, ki tevava ye, fazucht, it is a, the Rebbe, it is good." Whatever. He says tens and tens of Yungeleit followed him. And who were these guys? These were guys who knew taat niglan. They knew Kabbalah, and they knew they were-- And they, they, they were-- they were-- these weren't simple people.

35:29 Speaker 4 Yeah.

35:29 Speaker 3 But it never-- Those words, and I'm not saying 'cause the Alter Rebbe said it and whatever, but they, they tasted that halachas is a good thing.

35:37 Speaker 4 Yeah.

35:37 Speaker 3 Halachas is good. And, and Chassidus is halachas. Chassidus is halachas. It's good. It's gishmak. It's not just we have to because we're Jewish, 'cause we're Chabad, because we're... It is a gishmak thing. It's something which is pushut as a gishmkeit in, in davening, in learning Chassidus. And, and I think Bochurim, when they're-- when they are made aware of it, they realize it. And the same thing, I believe Yungeleit or anybody. If I learn a little bit of Chassidus with a gishmak, it makes me realize this stuff is good. This is, this is much better than anything you can think about in the world. There is nothing better than this. It's not dveikus, and it's not gan eden, and it's not anything. It's, it's pushut halachas. And, and when a person realizes that's who we are, that's what it means to be Chabad. So I'm not just learning Chassidus 'cause as a Chabadnik I have to learn Chassidus, and it's a pasht that a Lubavitcher shouldn't learn Chassidus. I'm learning Chassidus because it's something which is pushut. It gives a gishmak, and it gives a, a chayas, and it's something which is-- it's just, it's something which is, which is, which is... It-- There's, there's nothing, there's nothing like it. And that's, that's something which in-- People notice it. People realize it. Bochurim, Bochurim notice it a lot 'cause they're still young.

36:54 Speaker 4 Right.

36:55 Speaker 3 And, and they're, they're open to it. They're open to it.

36:57 Speaker 4 So one thing for sure, I think everyone understands that it's like, it's a moment that happens to a person. And that-- in other words, I asked you, like, how do you give over, like, so to speak, your experience to people who don't have that, the, b- not even pretty much the option of having your experience 'cause they didn't grow up with the contrast. So you're saying that, yeah, it doesn't-- uh, it sound-- if I understand your answer correctly, like, you're saying it doesn't have to be that particular experience. You could have a bachur, a taco, grew up, you know, in the military like you said, whatever, and he's, uh... And all of a sudden, he learns a ma'amar, and it clicks. Something clicks, and, and, and, and he has that experience, that, uh-

37:30 Speaker 3 Yeah.

37:30 Speaker 4 Yeah. So I think we all understand, I think it's pretty obvious that, yeah, every, every person could have that moment, that, that thing, and it's, and it's very different. Every person will experience it in their own way.

37:41 Speaker 3 Mm.

37:41 Speaker 4 So how do you... A-a and, and, and you, and you can't make it happen as the mashpia, as the teacher, as the-

37:47 Speaker 3 Right

37:47 Speaker 4 ... yeshiva. You can't make it happen. So what, what can you do? Um, like, what, what do you see, uh, maybe not even as a, as a concept, but in practice 'cause you've done it for so many years. What is the-- how do you provide that setting? How do you set up for the bachur to be able to do? I mean, like, in the story you said, till now it's you give the bachur an opportunity to learn so much Chassidus, like Beshulfi and, and just Parashat Kamos that eventually, you know, something is gonna go in. That makes sense. That... Or what's, what, what, what is, uh, something you've seen that, like, helps bachur be able to cultivate that, uh-- And, and like we-- I-I disclaimed to you a hundred times that it's not a Chinuch podcast and it's not a thing, but we, we understand it by bachur, and we can understand it for ourselves as well.

38:29 Speaker 3 Yeah.

38:29 Speaker 4 Yeah.

38:30 Speaker 3 So I think, I think, I think from the-- I mean, this is really definitely the thing. Once it's time, uru, that's, that was the words the Alter Rebbe used. I think that's the words. Time, we have to taste it.

38:40 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

38:41 Speaker 3 You taste it, and that's the thing. Learning Chassidus because of whatever side reason almost that pushes me to do it, and then I start-- But, but, but I, I'm thinking about the idea, and I'm catching the idea, and it's like, "Wow, this is, this is gishmak. This is good." And when another person sees... Do you have a gishmak? I mean, we, we've often, you know, a person sees , and so this is a meshugenah. But, uh, some people look, and yeah, there's, there's this story. The Rebbe says, Rebbe says how, how, uh, a person-- You meet someone, and the first thing you say is Mashiach now. And the Rebbe says the Ba'al Shem Tov, when he met people, he first said hello. And he first spoke to them and said hello, and he spoke to them and thing, and then he said whatever it was. Why should you start with Mashiach now? Why is that a thing that you should start with? And the Rebbe says, "Because the person looks at you, and he sees that ." More or less, you're a normal guy. Like, the Rebbe says the tie is straight and, you know, you talk to the guy and you see he's, he's normal. He has sechel, whatever, but th-this is a, a craziness of his. He doesn't even say hello, and he just starts with the words Mashiach now. And the Rebbe says when a person starts sort of realizing, hey, the guy's not crazy. So why is he, why is he

39:56 Speaker 3 so crazy about this? And it's the same thing when a person sees him and you look, ah, this meshugenah or what he's bringing or he's whatever it is. But a, a, a person who thinks a little bit, no, this guy is not a meshugenah. He speaks normal languages. He, he, he acts more or less normal in other things, but he's crazy about Chassidus, and he's crazy. And you can see there's a gishmak, and that's really something. If a-- another person you look at-- Just to say another interesting story from the Rebbe. I mean, it's, it's very, very interesting. The Rebbe says that, um, it was by a farbrengen. I think it was a Shabbos Mevorchim, uh, Sivan, if I'm not mistaken. And, uh, they were singing by the farbrengen, "Ashrei Nu Matei Chalkeinu." And the Rebbe stopped in the middle of the nigun, and the Rebbe told a story. The Rebbe said, Rebbe Yitzchak of Bardichev, one time, um, they saw him dancing in the morning. They asked him, "Why are you dancing?" He said, "I said Shelo Asani Goy. And I thought to myself, do you know what it means if I'm saying, 'Beshem Omalchus Shelo Asani Goy?' That means it could have been different. He could have made me a Goy. And I think what could have been and what is, how can I not dance?" And the Rebbe went-- told the story, and then the Rebbe asked the question. The Rebbe says, "We all say Birchat Shachar in the morning, and yet

41:19 Speaker 3 we don't see us dancing." The Rebbe says, "Because we don't, we don't think about it. We don't, we don't make it real. We don't really think what... If we did, we would do it." And the Rebbe said it when they give papael, you're singing Ashrei Nu Matei Chalkeinu. The Rebbe says, "If you would think for a second the words that you're saying, you'd be dan-- you'd be singing it differently." The Rebbe says, "How could you say Ashrei Nu Matei Chalkeinu and sing Ashrei Nu Matei Chalkeinu with such a like so

41:45 Speaker 4 Right.

41:45 Speaker 3 yetzer hara? And the Rebbe stopped in the middle of the nigun and said, "Now let's try it again. Let's try and do it properly." But that's the thing. If we a little bit think what's going on instead of just letting our lives continue because Baruch Hashem, our lives are busy, and we gotta make money, and we have k-kids to educate, and we have, uh, we have, uh, a job to do and a bank manager who wants it, everything's there. But if we sit for a second and just think, what does it mean that I'm a Chasid? I have a connection to the Rebbe, that I can learn a ma'amar and have a shaychus, then, then it's something which, which I-- I'm not gonna do it yetzer hara. I'll have some type of thing. Will it change my life completely in that second? It's not gonna change my life. But it's every time that from time to time, I'll try and think a little bit what I'm saying when I'm davening. I'll try and think a little bit when I'm learning a ma'amar. I'll try and learn a little bit when I have a moment to learn some Chassidus. This is what Chassidus is all about, changing our lives, making us different people, making us people who recognize something else called the Lekuchas. That reality, not just we do it, uh, we, you know, we pay lip service to it. And we can. We can. Every single one of us can do it, can daven with

43:02 Speaker 3 a little bit of a chays. And when people see someone else doing it- Or someone else being there, not just davening. He sees-- when you see someone davening, and you can see that he's, he's saying the words, and it's called "Let's make certain manner a little bit" or whatever, then they start thinking, "Why is this guy doing it?" And so either the, the maskan is, okay, he's crazy, or okay, he's, he's different, and he's a tzadik or whatever, or the maskan is, I can do it too. I can do it too. Maybe not like him, but it doesn't matter. I don't have to do it like him. I have to do it like me and, and try and think a little bit the words, and try and get a little bit... And, and it's, it's, it's one by one changing the world. That's, that's really what goes on.

43:41 Speaker 4 So to, to nip it for a second, we'll go back. I know it's a very technical question. I think there's like-- I think there's a lot more care because on the one end, you said in the beginning about how there's, um, there's the point of chasidus, and definitely what drew you to it was how we're doing it for Hashem.

44:00 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:00 Speaker 4 Right? And then, and then we're talking about building up the geshmak of chasidus, right? Time of So to, to nip it for a second, we'll go back. I know it's a very technical question. I think there's like-- I think there's a lot more care because on the one end, you said in the beginning about how there's, um, there's the point of chasidus, and definitely what drew you to it was how we're doing it for Hashem.

44:01 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:01 Speaker 4 Right? And then, and then we're talking about building up the geshmak of chasidus, right? Time of Hashem. Um, and, and the way-- what, what-- the way a-- when a, when a bachur gets excited, like you're describing, and he finally like it clicks, and he like gets into it, So to, to nip it for a second, we'll go back. I know it's a very technical question. I think there's like-- I think there's a lot more care because on the one end, you said in the beginning about how there's, um, there's the point of chasidus, and definitely what drew you to it was how we're doing it for Hashem.

44:01 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:01 Speaker 4 Right? And then, and then we're talking about building up the geshmak of chasidus, right? Time of Hashem. Um, and, and the way-- what, what-- the way a-- when a, when a bachur gets excited, like you're describing, and he finally like it clicks, and he like gets into it,

44:16 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:16 Speaker 4 Right? And then, and then we're talking about building up the geshmak of chasidus, right? Time of Hashem. Um, and, and the way-- what, what-- the way a-- when a, when a bachur gets excited, like you're describing, and he finally like it clicks, and he like gets into it, lab dark at that moment, he's thinking about how he's serving the Aibishter per se, right? He's thinking about how this is a geshmak and Maimor, whether in the avodah of it or the haskala of it. Probably if he's spending so much time learning it, then it's more of the haskala of it. Now, I, I-- obviously, like, chaf sham that, like-- that meaning the, the, the answer I think is obvious, but I think it needs to be spelled out. Like, so how do we-- if, if we're all about serving Hashem, how do we pitch this agenda of, like, that it's geshmak to, to learn chasidus, or it's geshmak to, to daven or whatever?

44:49 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:49 Speaker 4 How do, how does that go together?

44:50 Speaker 3 Yeah. It's interesting because the Rebbe asked this question a few mama, Rav Yisamchi and others. The Rebbe asked basically the same question, a few different mama. And the Rebbe says, "Ad Rebbe, when it's only the Aibishter, and there is no me, and then the geshmak is complete and real." Because when it's me, then there's my existence, and that-- the geshmak isn't necessarily a full thing. When I have that realization, it's only the Aibishter, there's nothing else, the simcha, the geshmak is a million times more because there is no me coming in the way. So I have a total lisanek al ha'vaya, as it's called in the words of chasidus. Th-there's nothing else. And the truth is, that is-- I mean, if you wanna put it in psychology, that's everybody's worried and depressed, this and that, and everyone's going to psychologists 'cause everyone's, "How do I deal with the whole thing? How do I deal with it?" When I know how to leave myself on the side and connect to something so much higher and so much deeper where there's no me, where there's n-n-need, need to be a me, there's nothing then standing in the way. Then that's-- that is the happiest moment and the happiest type of person that can exist, the most geshmak type of person that can exist. So it's not my personal geshmak, it's my geshmak knowing that, that, that there's an Aibishter, and that I have totally-- there, there's nothing else that, that takes, that takes me away from him.

46:19 Speaker 4 Right. Okay. So, so that's, uh-- So a-any-- Like you said, this is, um, a familiar topic in the Rebbe's Torah. Um, I mean, p-p-personally, I'm coming from, uh, Chay Sai Rebbe Mamam. It's a big theme in the Chay Sai Rebbe Mamam.

46:31 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

46:31 Speaker 4 Where the-- when the-- when it's predicated on bitul, then the simcha is not yeshus. It's the, it's the yeshus of Hashem.

46:38 Speaker 3 And then it's real.

46:38 Speaker 4 And yeah, that's the person-- And that's the only real simcha, right?

46:42 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yes.

46:42 Speaker 4 So fine. So we have the oyes of success for the answer, but, uh, how, how does that look like practically? I mean, especially when-- I, I, I think I'll pick again on bachurim just, uh, uh, because bachurim are very extreme. They're teenagers. They're like-

46:55 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

46:55 Speaker 4 ... you know, they're very-

46:56 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

46:56 Speaker 4 ... b-b-bipolar, uh, emotions. But even, you know, even-- So, so you, you get involved in a Maimon, like it's geshmak, or you're by a Fabrega, and it's geshmak. And, like, how, how-- what's, what's the, what's the practical thing that you need to, like, be thinking about at that moment to, like, make sure that it's, that it's taka predicated on this, on this bitul betzem that the Rebbe talks about, you know? What does that, what does that look like?

47:21 Speaker 3 So, so in a certain sense, I mean, just to get the idea, when it's geshmak, and that's what it is, it's not gonna last. 'Cause I'm enjoying it at this moment.

47:31 Speaker 4 Right.

47:32 Speaker 3 And the next moment, I enjoy other things. I mean, -- what does that mean? What does it mean you lose yourself? Like, what does that-- Like, uh, uh, or what does that mean there's no me? Like-

48:27 Speaker 4 I-in the most practical terms-

48:29 Speaker 3 Yeah

48:29 Speaker 4 ... it means I'm ready to give it all up to help someone else, even to give up not my gashmiyus-

48:36 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

48:36 Speaker 4 ... not my physical existence, my spiritual existence-

48:39 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

48:39 Speaker 4 ... to help someone else on a much, much lower level. In other words, I'll give up my learning ayin beis in order to help someone who has to still do alef beis. And the only reason I would do that, because what do you mean? It's like, yeah, I'll do it, yetzer saying, 'cause I know I have to do it. No, and I'll do it, and I'll know this is what it is because there's no word like, like the Baal Shem Tov said, "Ilú nitz tavinu lachtaveitz." If we were told to chop wood, we would do it with the same chayis as now what we're doing now, chopping wood. There's no-- there's nothing in it.

49:12 Speaker 3 Right.

49:12 Speaker 4 But that's what the Aibishter want. Now, when I do these things which the Aibishter, 'cause the Aibishter happens to want me to do things which do have a, a geshmak in it. Learning a Maimon is a, is a, it's a seychol dikke thing. Davening is a, is a, is a middes dikke thing. All these things, they, they give me a feeling.

49:28 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

49:29 Speaker 4 And yet, I have to do it that same thing as if I was chopping wood now, as if that was, that was what it was all about.

49:35 Speaker 3 Right.

49:35 Speaker 4 And, and, and, and in reality, if we think about it and we, we, we can get there, and, and, and it's, it's, it's beyond anything that, uh-

49:44 Speaker 3 Right. So, so I understand in the bigger picture. First of all, that also explains, I think, what you mean when you said before that you can't lose yourself like that when it comes to gashmiyus. Um, 'cause I was gonna ask, like, what I mean, what about just the klipa? Right? Just the klipa is a very real thing.

50:00 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

50:00 Speaker 3 People do stupid things. That, that-- Isn't that losing yourself? Like-- But now, now it makes sense because you're saying that, no, you wouldn't, you wouldn't stop what you were in the middle of doing to help someone else when you were in the middle of, uh, something very geshmak b'gashmiyus. Um, and you're saying that the, the litmus test basically to be able to say that your, that your geshmak is not coming from a place of m- of self metzias, it's coming out of place of bitl, a sense of wanting to do what Hashem wants, which includes having a geshmak, is that you'd be ready to, to help someone else. You'd be ready to fulfill the kavana, even if it's taking away from you. So, so that makes sense when it practically happens, you know, like, like, l- I mean, you gave an example, like going to teach someone halachot, right? So this is, yeah, this is their shiur, right? Like, you're ready to go on shlichut. You're ready to go on mitzvot. You're ready to, you know, whatever, do something specifically that's hard and out of your nature. How do you know that when you're in the middle of learning a Maimon? How do you know that when you're in the middle of Ha'brandon, right? No one's gonna tell you to go stop. Like, go on mitzvot in the middle of a Maimon because you wanna make sure that you're being batel, right? Like, so how do you... Uh, uh, I, I, want to make sure

51:05 Speaker 3 I'm not get-- I don't want-- I don't mean to get technical, like meaning I don't u- I don't want that now someone should think that like, "Oh yeah, in the middle of a Maimon, I should make myself a ches bonéfesh." We know the Rebbe wasn't into these kind of ches bonéfs and that. Just learn, just daven. I'm asking more in an idler way. In other words, like, in other words, alibud emes. What's the, what's the way that a person could be in middle of the Maimon? In, in other words, if a bakker came to you and asked you as, as a mashpia, right? "I'm middle of Maimon, it's getting geshmak, what do I do to make sure that it's, that it, that it's not a geshmak of klipa?"

51:39 Speaker 5 Yeah.

51:39 Speaker 3 Probably, the answer would be just continue learning.

51:41 Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:42 Speaker 3 Right? Probably. But, but, but now, but now you're talking continue learning, and now alibud emes you wanna know how do we know, right? What, what's the answer to that?

51:51 Speaker 5 Even, even aboishes, it's called. This is what happens later.

51:55 Speaker 3 Happens later.

51:55 Speaker 5 It's what happens later. The Alter Rebbe says, "I'm ." So the Rebbe brings, Alter Rebbe explains it that even though my heart is up connected to the Rebbe, but my eyes are still seeing how it's going to affect what, what's gonna be the outcome later on. So now, I'm losing myself in the davening, but then what's gonna happen next? How will that, how will that have an effect later on the, on the n- next moment of my life? And that's how I know whether it was real and proper or whether it wasn't.

52:28 Speaker 3 Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So in other words, i-if we're coming later to examine what it was, then we're-- then we already know later what happened, so we could, uh, we could know kind of what it was.

52:38 Speaker 5 Yes, even aboishes.

52:40 Speaker 3 Um, to, to go back, to touch back on, uh, maybe a different angle now, but I, I think it came up already. Um, you mentioned about like, you know, going to teach halachot and stuff. Um, w-were-- if we were to go back, we're in the middle of your story of, of, of your own personal journey.

52:57 Speaker 5 Yeah.

52:57 Speaker 3 So, so in the days you come to like Torah, and, uh, in the days gimmel lamed daled, you're in, you're in seven, seven, right? All those years you were in seven, seven.

53:06 Speaker 5 No, I was in Alter-- I was in Alter till, till, till, nun-- yeah, till daled.

53:10 Speaker 3 Daled?

53:10 Speaker 5 Based on gimmel and daled, those three years was in Alter.

53:13 Speaker 3 And then...

53:14 Speaker 5 Then I went to Sydney on shlichut nun hei.

53:17 Speaker 3 Okay. So that's why I had a mind you were in Australia. So it was as a bakker. Uh-huh. Okay.

53:21 Speaker 5 And then, uh, in nun vav, I was in Montreal. I was teaching in Montreal. And then I got married. And then a year in Kalo, and then afterwards was Venice for three years.

53:33 Speaker 3 Right.

53:33 Speaker 5 Mexico, and then South Africa for the last twenty, twenty-two years. Almost twenty-three years.

53:40 Speaker 3 Wow. So, um, so that-- so, so you're in Kalo, and obviously, you know you wanna go on shlichut in the sense of do what the Rebbe wants. What, what, uh, what's the history of how it went right away to opening a sh-- What did you say? Nun vav? When, when did-

53:59 Speaker 5 Nun zayin. I got married, um, end of nun zayin.

54:02 Speaker 3 Oh.

54:02 Speaker 5 Cheshvan, I was in Kalo, and then already Elul, Cheshvan went to Venice.

54:06 Speaker 3 Oh, okay. Right. So, so, uh, Akiva already had his yeshiva. I was gonna ask if that came first, but, uh, okay. So Akiva had-

54:12 Speaker 5 Akiva had his yeshiva. In fact, I went there. So an interesting thing just to get to, 'cause this is also connected to where we are. Um, I went on shlichut nun hei, and it was a big thing that after shlichut, you have to go to seven seventy. I mean, otherwise, why is it shlichut? Because you're shlichut, you go to seven seventy as a bakker. And that was-- We were very inter-- 'cause it was right after Gimmel Tammuz, and it was all the questions, how and what, and the And, uh, and I brought with me a whole bunch of cards and to give out to people with the berachos that you make when Mashiach comes, and different things to give out because we're gonna make it all... And I remember, uh, there was, there was-- they, they did, they do Selichos because it's- Right. -two days from Yom Kippur. So it's, so it's-- they-- the, the, the plane takes off probably, I think, midnight around. So by the time... And you're flying with the sun. So by the time it's two, three hours later, they're already doing Selichos, and it's waking up the whole plane, and babies are waking up and crying, and everybody's upset that the religious people who are, who are waking everyone up and whatever. And I don't have to do Selichos because we don't do Selichos aseres yemei teshuva. So I figured if everyone's up already, let's put on tefillin with them. So I'm standing there, and it was actually crazy because,

56:54 Speaker 5 I mean, you see when you decide you're doing Selichos, it just goes in a crazy type of direction. I went over to one or two people, and suddenly there's a line. I didn't even have to go over to anybody. Yeah. The line was so long that it took throughout the time of Selichos and throughout the time of the minyan of Shacharis also, that people were pashut coming over and wanted to daven. They took then the berachos that you make when Mashiach comes. They put it in their wallets, and it was a very- Wow. It was a yes aidos. It was pashut crazy. I just didn't-- I didn't-- I couldn't even go daven Shacharis with the minyan because people were coming and wanted to put on tefillin. And I actually remember afterwards, a guy calls me over from the other side of the plane. It was like a, a Litvisher bocher. And he says, um, "Someone wants to know what you're doing. Can you come explain it to them?" I said, "You, you can explain it just as well as I can." He said, "No, but you understand how to say it." I said, "Okay, fine." I walk over to the guy, and suddenly he looked funny. I said, "Are you Jewish?" He said, "No, I'm an Arab." So he-- so I said, "So what do you want?" "I wanna know what is-- what does it say? What is, what is this? What are you doing? Like, what's in here?" I said, "Well-" Tefillin. Yeah. Yeah.

58:02 Speaker 5 I said, "In the tefillin, it says that there's one God, and He created the world, and He created the land of Israel and gave it to the Jewish people forever." He says, "Okay, very nice." I told him the Shema, "Misah bederech eretz." That was-- it was very... But, but it was, it was a whole-- the whole thing was that, and then the whole time we were in Eretz Yisrael and went in sukkos to put on tefillin at the Sheiluv HaNes and whatever it was. And it was interesting 'cause on the way back, so my mother sees a friend of hers on the plane. She says, "Yeah, on the way here," because they had gone a few days before. And, and her friend says to her, "Yeah. On the way here, they made a minyan for Selichos, and they woke up the whole plane. Everyone was really upset. And there was one Lubavitcher bocher, and he was putting on tefillin, and everyone suddenly was so happy. It was such a Kiddush Hashem." She goes, "Oh, there's the guy." It was like... But, um, the, the idea was... Anyway, so just to go to the thing. So I get a call while I'm in Eretz Yisrael. I don't know how they found me, from the principal in the school in Montreal. He says, "Since you're coming anyway to teach in Mesivta, we really need a teacher for seventh grade- Mm-hmm. -in school." I said, "Whoever said I'm coming to teach in Mesivta?" So I said, "You know

59:12 Speaker 5 what? I think I'm, I'm done." Like, this is, this is-- it was mamash. I was going to protest the whole thing. I said, "Fine. If, if that's, that's the way it will be, that's the way it will be." And I remember I went there, and it was mamash. It was a tzla, like, l'ma'alam m'namash ur, l'ma'alam meateva, the whole thing. I really didn't wanna do this, but I sat there, and we learned Smicha, and I had a chavrusa for Smicha, and we taught. This was like until today. I had the connection. That was the ones we made the faithful shepherd. I was gonna say, if nothing else happened that year, it was faithful shepherd. Yeah. These kids, you understand, they were-- they didn't have a teacher, and they were-- 'cause every teacher they had, uh, uh, quit on them and whatever it was. And, and it was-- but it was, it was such a strong thing. Like, till today, I might still have a connection with a lot of these, uh, kids. Wow. And a lot of them are in very good places. And it was, it was a very strong, uh, story that. So that was, that was the first thing. Then I'm, "Okay, now I finished Nun Zayin. Now it's time to go back." That was Nun- Wow. Nun, Nun Vav. Now Nun Zayin, I'm going back. Now for sure I'm going 770. So summer Nun Vav, I was with Akiva in, in, in- Tannersville. -Tannersville. And he was starting his yeshiva then,

1:00:20 Speaker 5 and he starts making me crazy, "You have to come." I said, "There's no if or not." There's nothing to talk about because I was 770 now. All year I didn't go. He says, "Write to the Rebbe." I said, "Okay, I can't say no to that." So I wrote to the Rebbe, and, um, I remember I opened up Kotzi Zecher then. And there was an answer. It was Shehecheyanu. It was actually Friday. Shehecheyanu was Friday and Shabbos. Was, was, uh, Friday and Shabbos and Sunday. And, and, and, and everything was, uh, that-- the, the, the answer was mamash from that, from Shehecheyanu. The first Shehecheyanu about mesim and tefilos talmud. The, the condition was if there's no clear answer to go, that means I can't-- I shouldn't go. So the Rebbe says, "Let me now look on the other side of the page." There's the first side and the second side. It said over there... 'Cause I told him it's pikuach nefesh. I have to go 770. And the Rebbe writes, you know, "Al pi mashchas v'Rambam shamatines am." The Rebbe writes, uh, "Safek v'kamav v'kamav sfeikas pikuach nefesh klal v'rabim deich pikuach nefesh l'yachid." That the pikuach nefesh of a klal v'rabim is deich. He says, "Oh, that's doch." So you have to come. And I went there. I went there for a few months. I was there with him until finally after Yoshvat, uh, he allowed me to go to 770. But it was a very, uh, it was-- that was, that was, that

1:01:42 Speaker 5 was over there. And then after that, I got married, and, and then there was a year of kilul. And then I got, I got a few livina. I wasn't, I wasn't looking dafka any specific thing. I said, "Selichos will come. Whatever comes will come." And Venice came up. But on the other hand, something else came up. Actually, South Africa came up at the time- Oh, wow. -to come to Mesivta South Africa. And Venice didn't look like it was Shayech until that was more Shayech. And, uh, but then in the last second, South Africa, for various reasons, someone left, whatever it was, it wasn't, it couldn't happen. But I said, "I wanna go to Venice," 'cause I said it was-- Venice was basically Bochurim who didn't get Shlichus. Officially, Bochurim Montreal Yeshiva didn't get Shlichus, and they wanted to learn Smicha. I said, "I don't do Smicha programs. Do a Yeshiva if you want, but..." So remember, Shlichim they're going crazy. You have to-

1:02:32 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:02:33 Speaker 5 It's not, it's, it's, it's, it's a Yeshiva, not a Smicha program. We're gonna learn Smicha there, but it's a, but it's a Yeshiva.

1:02:38 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:02:39 Speaker 5 I said, "If it's a Yeshiva, but it has to be a Yeshiva." Anyway, in the end, it was, it was very interesting. I got a very strong answer from the Rebbe about going there.

1:02:47 Speaker 3 This was like a new Yeshiva that they were opening up?

1:02:49 Speaker 5 They-- Yeah, 'cause they wanted to go there. They-

1:02:50 Speaker 3 Or like it existed before?

1:02:51 Speaker 5 It was the-- No.

1:02:52 Speaker 3 No.

1:02:52 Speaker 5 The Bochurim decided they wanted to do that.

1:02:54 Speaker 3 Why Venice, like-

1:02:56 Speaker 5 The Bochurim had, it was a thing. They wanted to go to Venice and, and, and, and they needed someone to come with them, and I said, "I, I'm not, it's not my thing."

1:03:03 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:03:04 Speaker 5 But then I got a very strong, 'cause I remember we got, it's like an answer from the Rebbe about going, but I said I need it to come more clear. And I went, I, I, I went in summer '70, and I, I, I, I wrote to the Rebbe. I said, "I want, I wanna know, am I a Shliach or not?" Like-

1:03:19 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:03:19 Speaker 5 "Not do this, don't do this." And I opened up, and the answer was .

1:03:27 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:03:32 Speaker 5 I said, "Okay, that's it. That's done."

1:03:34 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:03:34 Speaker 5 And we went there. We went there then for three years, and it worked then for whatever reasons. It didn't, it didn't continue, then we went to Mexico for a year, and then-

1:03:41 Speaker 3 Wow

1:03:41 Speaker 5 ... eventually ended up again in South Africa. It was interesting when I got, when, when the sh- the, the, the software South Africa came up, so I didn't wanna do it. And the answer from the Rebbe was, "The Nasiyah that you talk about is for sure a good idea," 'cause they wanted me to come for a Shabbos to check it out.

1:03:58 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:03:59 Speaker 5 The Rebbe said Nasiyah's a good idea, and Halevai you would've done it already a year ago. It never was. So it was, it was a very-- But the concept always is, was, was the idea of, of, of, of not necessarily what you want.

1:04:14 Speaker 3 Right.

1:04:14 Speaker 5 And it's not, and I had that, I had that in various ways from the Rebbe. Like when I brought a group from Toronto once, I was a counselor in Toronto, we brought a group of kids, and we went by the Rebbe in Chabad. It was then in Gimmel. We used to walk by the Rebbe. And I walked by the Rebbe before the summer, and I decided I need to bring these kids. Whatever I'm gonna do in the summer, I need to bring them to the Rebbe, and we'll go by the Rebbe again. And it was a whole story which I'm not gonna get into, but the point was when we walked by the Rebbe, this time beforehand, I got a lot of Kidum and whatever, both on the porch and walking by. And here, I walked by. I was in the back of the line. The Rebbe looked at every single one of the kids. It was, it was high, uh, public school kids. Rebbe looked at them and looked at them, like Mamish followed them, which was Mamish, I think, like I could see 'cause I'm in the back. Rebbe followed with his eyes every single kid personally out the door. Usually, the Rebbe just shook his head, and the next person came by. Here, the Rebbe sort of looked with each one of the kids.

1:05:12 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:05:12 Speaker 5 When I walked by, Rebbe didn't look at me. And the message that I got was clear: it's not about you.

1:05:19 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:05:19 Speaker 5 Beforehand, I gave you the Koach to do what you needed to do. Now you brought them, it's about them. And that's the message I took with me for Yeshiva always. It's not about you. It's not about your life. It's about what you can do and what you have to do for, for others. That's, that's-- So that's, that's how it-- That, that was the whole Yeshiva, how it ended up, the whole story. It wasn't like a-

1:05:43 Speaker 3 Right

1:05:43 Speaker 5 ... pre-planned or not pre-planned. This was what-

1:05:46 Speaker 3 Right. Like I was gonna ask if you-- I mean, I don't, I would imagine that then there was a much bigger Koch in going on Shlichus in terms of Chabad House.

1:05:53 Speaker 5 And that was my thought.

1:05:54 Speaker 3 Right. I was-

1:05:55 Speaker 5 It didn't, it didn't-- This is what came up, and this is the Rebbe answer, and I knew this-

1:05:58 Speaker 3 Right

1:05:58 Speaker 5 ... this is what you gotta do.

1:06:00 Speaker 3 So this ties right back to how it all started with, uh, you come, becoming close to Chassidus and then closer-

1:06:06 Speaker 5 Yeah

1:06:06 Speaker 3 ... to the Rebbe about that, that, uh, ability to think past your own, uh, your own Tvecos and your own, uh, and your own Sgar.

1:06:15 Speaker 5 That was what we were-- That was what Chassidus taught. That's what-

1:06:18 Speaker 3 Right

1:06:18 Speaker 5 ... the Rebbe taught, and that's what meant c- being connected. That's what it means, being connected to the Rebbe.

1:06:24 Speaker 3 Right. And, and, and yet, the, I think what the-- With that being the very powerful Yesod, and like you said before, it needs to also be the Avodah Bechin, I think a very strong message and a very strong fuel is the Geshmak and is the, the, the buy-in, you know, called from, you know, Geshmak of Nefesh Elokios. Now, Shamayim is both, you know, is pr- supposed to be both according to Chassidus.

1:06:47 Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah.

1:06:48 Speaker 3 But, uh, but that, that's, in other words, the Cheyu of the Geshmak is the, is the fuel. A person can't, can't, uh, be excited off of the Yetzer HaRa-

1:06:56 Speaker 5 Yeah

1:06:56 Speaker 3 ... Pashus.

1:06:57 Speaker 5 Yeah, and that's the question the Rebbe asks in more than one way. Like you said, in Vayechi Sara as well-

1:07:01 Speaker 3 Right

1:07:01 Speaker 5 ... and in, in, in, in, in Rani V'Simchi and in, in, in, in various other Mamaram where the Rebbe asks that question. Also in Vayeilech Imahu, which was a crazy Mamar. Yitgadal V'Yitkadash for a gadol. That, that Rosh Hashanah Mamar with the Rebbe, again, drives in the same point.

1:07:17 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:17 Speaker 5 There's a Cheydush with the Rebbe, but each time the Rebbe drives in the point, it's not for you. But then the Rebbe says, "How can you be with Simcha?" I said, "No, that's exactly why you could be with Simcha. That is the greatest Simcha."

1:07:27 Speaker 3 Right. In Rani V'Simchi, at the end of the Mamar, I mean, whatever.

1:07:30 Speaker 5 It's Kashrus.

1:07:31 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, that the Simcha comes from the Rebbe.

1:07:32 Speaker 5 That's, that's the Nekudah.

1:07:33 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:07:33 Speaker 5 It's not Simcha comes from the Rebbe. It's you're Mekoshe. You're giving yourself over to something that's higher than you. That's the same Nekudah. When I give myself over to the Rebbe, then that's the biggest Simcha possible. And, and you see it in today's world. Nobody's happy with anything. No matter how much physical, spiritual contentment you have, you can't be happy because that's how the Aibishter made us.

1:07:55 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:55 Speaker 5 The happiness is when I'm able to give myself over to something higher than me, which that's what Bashrusim is, is Kashrus to the Rebbe, which Mameilis is Kashrus to the Aibishter, and it's Kashrus to just doing what the Aibishter wants just for that purpose.

1:08:10 Speaker 3 Right. Beautiful. Thank you very much. L'Chaim Uvrachah.

1:08:15 Speaker 5 L'Chaim Uvrachah.

1:08:16 Speaker 3 And, uh, it should take a B, uh, we should have the, his Galus take it from me out. It should be a good, uh, Tevilah Midah. That'll be Geshmak.

1:08:24 Speaker 5 Amen. Yeah.

1:08:25 Speaker 3 Okay.