לשלב את הנפש הבהמית בעבודת ה' – הרב יוסי קליין

00:00 Speaker 1 You know, but when dealing with, like, building people up, sometimes you might even need to build people up with things which are not directly inside the obvious place of kedoshim. When you go and develop someone's talent in music and art, and you see the stories with the Rebbe regarding spiritual artists, right? You develop people's talents in these kind of things, and these are things that are actually good. And again, the Eibishter made them talented in art. Nefesh B'Hamis, precise. For a reason. Made them talented in music. If we just go and ignore that, and there are-- I've read in places in other communities, they will shun people for a good-- might shun that. It's a distraction.

00:32 Speaker 2 Mm. Right.

00:34 Speaker 1 It's a distraction from your avodah. And we would go and say, "The Eibishter did that for a reason." Now, again, be very careful. You don't limit like that. Nefesh B'Hamis is right next to the Yetzer Hara.

00:44 Speaker 2 Right.

00:45 Speaker 1 The Yetzer Hara is the middos, and they can pull in. You've got to be very, very careful, very cautious. But we-- Like, I would say building people up means building them up where the Nefesh B'Hamis is. And when, like, when I'm dealing with bochurim or with friends and people, it's all about finding the spark. And there is a spark.

01:02 Speaker 2 You know when you're at a good toir and the gefarbrengen and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs: Conversations in Chassidus, a podcast farbrengen where we have real conversations about real Chassidus. Okay, welcome.

01:21 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you for having me.

01:23 Speaker 2 We are sitting here with Rabbi Yossi Klein, originally from Manchester, right?

01:28 Speaker 1 Yep, yep.

01:29 Speaker 2 England. And currently a mashpia, I think we could call that.

01:33 Speaker 1 It's a heavy word, but yeah.

01:35 Speaker 2 In, uh, L.A. Mesivta. Let's start with just a bit of background specifically focused on how you entered the mashpia position. Obviously not the, uh, legalities and the contracts, but more the mindset.

01:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:51 Speaker 2 Like, what pushed you? What got you there? Was it something you always thought of? Was it something, something specific that was a catalyst? Go ahead.

01:57 Speaker 1 So I'll tell you, this is interesting 'cause I, um, I-- as a bocher, like, took me time to find myself, and I felt as a bocher I struggled a lot. And in certain ways, I think I felt like certain things at the time, and I think the whole world's shifted a l-lot, but certain things at the time I didn't feel like was addressed, like me as a person with my personality and my struggles. I didn't feel like I was given... So it was certainly in my mind, maybe in the background as I was a bocher and I was, like, developing to myself and getting more confident, you know. And maybe I would go into chinuch and to, into yeshiva, but it wasn't a really big thing. I remember once my neighbor actually, when I was just maybe engaged or something, he was in my house. He's like, "You know, I'm a kuruv to Lubavitch, not memor Lubavitch." And he's like, "Your personality, you're perfect for, for shlichus." And why would you be going into chinuch? And, um, you know, "You're perfect." And, and sometimes I actually feel like, you know, a chinuch-- you know, there's something about shlichus. It's got its-- Everything's got its, you know. But, um, what, what really ended up happening was is that I was, um, an alter bocher in, in, in Ohr HaChaim Yeshiva. And during that time, I t-- I, you know, ran a Siyum HaShas. Didn't feel to me like I was that successful, but I had good

03:05 Speaker 1 friends that were busy there at the time in yeshiva. And then when I was engaged, I came back to L.A. just for a few weeks. And, um, during that time, a friend of mine who, um, I took over his class, and I ended up teaching, and I ended up... One Shabbos we actually went with a bunch of, like, ten bochurim to Shaalvim Mesivta, and I went through Vayodaita from beginning to end. We, like, sat down for, like, ten hours over, over Friday Shabbos to Sunday. In their own time, it was, it was amazing.

03:27 Speaker 2 Learning it inside?

03:28 Speaker 1 Learning inside. Went through the whole Vayodaita, and it was a very, very, very powerful, um, experience for me and for these bochurim. I wasn't even their teacher. But that opened something up that I think the menahal and, you know, and Mesivta saw that. And then what happened was is that, you know, I, you know, got engaged, got married. I got married. You know, I actually wanted to live in America, interestingly. But, um, but I was from England, and I just said, "Okay, so I'll have to live in England." There'll be some documents. Then right after, about a month after I got married, um, Rabbi Farhi reached out to me and asked me, um, if I wanted to come, and there was an opportunity to come back to something I cared about. And, um, I was kind of young at the time, didn't really think much, which might have been a to the benefit. I think some of the benefits is that, you know, the big decisions we do when we're relatively young-

04:05 Speaker 2 Right

04:05 Speaker 1 ... so we don't overthink them. And I, I went in there without really thinking that much, and, um, here I am.

04:11 Speaker 2 Right.

04:11 Speaker 1 You know? Good.

04:12 Speaker 2 So-

04:12 Speaker 1 Eight years in now, thank the Lord.

04:14 Speaker 2 Wow. Eight years.

04:15 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

04:15 Speaker 2 Wow.

04:15 Speaker 1 It's been a few now.

04:16 Speaker 2 So first of all, what, what do you-- what age do you teach now in L.A.?

04:19 Speaker 1 So I do, I do Shaalvim Mesivta.

04:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:22 Speaker 1 Um, so it's a very important age. Kind of works better with my personality because, you know, at least in my shiur or my perspective and what I want, I like it a little bit more hands-off. Sometimes when I'm insecure, I, you know, we step into trying to control a little bit. But the-- my approach is, you know, give a bit of space, and I, and I wanted a s- you know, a little bit touch more of a maturity. The zar is, like, a whole another different league. So, like, Shaalvim, like, ends up... And in L.A., like, I felt like the Eibishter clearly took me to the place where I was meant to be. So I do Shaalvim Mesivta. My main time is I do three hours of iyun with, you know, quote-unquote, "the weaker Gemara class." But for me, very much I use that as a platform to just share Yiddishkeit, and I have different things I do within Gemara. Like, I'll have to Gemara different curriculums I set up just to kind of share ideas of, of Yiddishkeit and Chassidus to them, to these bochurim, 'cause a lot of them in, in, in L.A. is actually there's, um, an English program. So a lot of them, they're not really that much time in Chredish. The whole afternoon is English. So iyun-

05:18 Speaker 2 Oh

05:18 Speaker 1 ... and I spend the most time with them. I am the one representing kedoshim who spends the most time with them.

05:22 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:22 Speaker 1 And then by night, say, they have this Tanya thing maybe we can discuss later on, this Tanya curriculum I have. We went through the whole Tanya Ligersa, and that's something I've maybe been doing for, like, seven years. And then a big part is farbrengen with bochurim, and that's really when we heart-

05:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

05:35 Speaker 1 ... we really, really connect. And-

05:37 Speaker 2 Sure

05:37 Speaker 1 ... it's, it's on the one hand, it's the hardest thing, um, because they're very vulnerable, and it's very you have to let go. But on the other hand, it's the most powerful thing. You, like, you really connect with bochurim, especially at the end of the farbrengen when it kind of winds down and you-- the bochurim come around, you talk to them one-on-one. It's a very, very, very powerful thing. And for me, actually, my passion is really the connecting neshama to neshama. And I-- you know, through everything, through, through life, through Yiddishkeit, Chassidus, but really it's just about connecting. Through with people and, and having that connection, which is really the platform for Hashbar really.

06:07 Speaker 2 Nice.

06:07 Speaker 1 That's-- So I think connection is my thing that I really care about a lot.

06:11 Speaker 2 Right. So here's a question. It's the same bakram that you teach Gemara, and you're teaching Tanya on the night, say there, and then, and then, um, for Bengel.

06:19 Speaker 1 So, so the class is split into two. I do the, the-- For Gemara, I'm doing that's the lower half officially. And then for night Seder, it's a program we've created for the entire Yeshivat Gimel.

06:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:28 Speaker 1 Really works best for the top half because we're doing like a pereg every two days, and there's momentum and you know. But, um, it's for everyone, so everyone's there. And then but for Bengel, it's a Bengel for everyone.

06:38 Speaker 2 Right.

06:38 Speaker 1 Sometimes we make smaller for Bengels for just my Gemara class, but-

06:41 Speaker 2 So I'm asking because you have-- So you have this group that you're just teaching Gemara to?

06:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I'm... Yeah, but I'm speaking to them one-on-one. Um-

06:48 Speaker 2 And you're sneaking-- And like you say, you're sneaking chassidus into that.

06:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, so sometimes during the Gemara class, sometimes I have this curriculum I created. I call it Yadus, but really it's just broader Yiddishkeit. So I talk about Middos Tovos. I talk through all different kinds of things, you know, regarding, you know, w-working on yourself, overcoming nesiot, you know, anger, taivah, you know, jealousy. I work-- So I talk through a lot of these things, self-development. I, I, you know. And that's a time where I create more discussion because a lot of these bakram, unfortunately, they're kind of a little bit burnt out from Gemara. That-that's the way they're coming in. So like I-- For me, it's very important to make it be all a good experience and to make sure that at-- So the last half hour of every day, I'm teaching more broader things, and I'm trying to always just use it as a-- to try and make it be a nice environment of learning because a lot of them, the, the logic of Gemara currently, again, hopefully it'll be-- And I have new ideas how to like break through that. A lot currently, they have a very hard time with it. So-

07:39 Speaker 2 Right

07:40 Speaker 1 ... trying to use that as a way of just connecting with them, spending time with them, being that structure for them in learning. And then, yeah, but, but it's really my goal is really to kind of be a role model for them. You know, maybe, you know, there's a bit bakram actually in Yeshivat Gimel. We've got three different teachers, mashpiyim, and we're all very different personalities and, and you know. And that's-- I think that's the advantage that we, you know, different bakram connect with different ones of us, each according to his personality they've got. And, and we all bakram as in whole respect each other very much, and we respect our differences, and it's a very beautiful environment. And so I have a lot of bakram, a certain kind which are attracted to what I have to offer and what I bring in, and I connect with them, and some of them I keep up, but-

08:16 Speaker 2 Right

08:16 Speaker 1 ... that's really what it is. Yeah.

08:17 Speaker 2 Okay. So, so, uh, putting the chinuch part of it aside-

08:20 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

08:20 Speaker 2 ... this is not a chinuch podcast.

08:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:21 Speaker 2 And also putting the Gemara part of it aside- ... this is not a Gemara podcast, all of which, uh, are tempting. Um, the chassidus part of it because what I'm picking up is something interesting. There's, there's two parts. I, I don't want to say two parts, but chassidus has m- many dimensions to it. And, um, the Friediker Rebbe actually delineates this clearly in the beginning of Kinhas Hachassidus, that there are certain clear agendas, if you will, or components to chassidus. And one of them is the daas elokei avicha, if you want to call it like that. One of them is the learning haskala, learning chassidus, learning about Hashem, learning about neshamah, um, learning about Seder Shtalshelos, et cetera. And obviously, within that, to bring it down to maaseh, not just maaseh, but bring it down to relevance and bring it down to, um, meaningful, uh, r-relevance in your-- in every person's life. So yes, when you learn Seder Shtalshelos and you learn about tzaddikos, what's the relevance in, in, in your life as well? And that's a, you know, that's a, a beautiful discussion for itself. Then there's the chassidus that talks directly to the person's behavior. Um, i-in that sense, like Pirkei Avos, in that sense like Musar Sefarim with a very different approach, sure. But the way that the, uh, Friediker Rebbe himself says very clearly, I believe in Kuntres HaBurim, that the whole idea of chassidus is, is lashon hatov me'de'asav. Um, and in that sense, so not only going back when

09:52 Speaker 2 you're learning a Maimar about atzilus, about haskala, and you have to know how this helps you become a better person. But isn't a discussion-- You, you said anger management, right? Isn't a discussion about anger management a discussion of chassidus? Like-

10:10 Speaker 1 So there's the nigleh aspect to it.

10:12 Speaker 2 Sure.

10:12 Speaker 1 And there's the chassidus. There's strategy, you know, very basic down to strategies. And then there's, you know, there's the backdrop. You know, it's like kind of like our derech regarding, you know, lashon hara. Another, another, you know, Yiddish community is a very, very strong koch in lashon hara. So chassidus approaches that, but we approach it from a much deeper way, right? You know, and it was in the Garz Kodesh, wherever, it discusses the idea how we try to go even on an emotional level and try to work much deeper to try to go and bechal even think negative about another person, not just be focused on talking. And so there, so there's, there's a very, like, basic bottom line nigleh strategies which have a space, and they're important. And when you're not in that space of, like, feeling a love for somebody because you're just not, and you're not... So there's a basic strategy, a very basic level of what to do, you know. Like just simply telling them to talk little or talk slow, you know, which are strategies just to be able to go and... You know, then, and then there's the behind and, you know, kol hakadosh k'lo aviv hi dezarah. You know, there's-

11:05 Speaker 2 Right

11:05 Speaker 1 ... there's aspect too. So yes, there is the very nigleh side when you're talking about, you know, dealing with middos and nism or chassidus which penetrates deeper. And I think, you know, the reality is the Torah is nigleh and there's, there's, there's pnimius, and we need both, and I think probably in different situations. And I think, but kind of like I would think sometimes, you know, in the moment, the nigleh might be sometimes, like, in the moment, but the, but, but with the-- the pnimius needs to happen in your own time.

11:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

11:29 Speaker 1 When you've got the quiet, when you're able, like, to just develop yourself into a person, like when you're davening, that, that way when you come out into the world, you are a person which will get less triggered by things, you know. But I think a lot of chassidus because it's much more pnimius approach, often in the moment, it's not necessarily a strategy in the moment. It's much, much more of a pnimius way. But you also need to have strategies in the moment, which is you're actually feeling angry, and you're, you're not in a space necessarily to go and think that, you know, it's all coming from the Eibishter in that, like... So you often just... The strategy just on a very basic level be able to deal with it, and then on a pnimius level. So I think there's, you know, different, different...

12:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

12:01 Speaker 1 But for sure, I, I do very much feel a lot of, um, because I'm dealing with, you know- ... communicating chassidus, and a large amount of it is to, bottom from different kind of backgrounds, and a lot of them, you know. So, so, so i- it's much more challenging to go through th- you know, that first s- that first side, which is the shtahl sh- you know, more hoich in yonim in a s'chol and bringing it down is more difficult. So when I talk to them directly, I'm much more, you know, s- talking the bottom lines and, uh, you know, the parashat of Tanya, which are very, very, very easily and directly talking to a person, you know, parashat chavav, chav zayin, you know? Chavav, chav zayin, chav chas are very much talking to a person. But, um, but again, we have this Tanya curriculum that goes through the entire Tanya, so they're also-

12:40 Speaker 2 So let's talk about that. Yeah. Let's-

12:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:41 Speaker 2 ... let's hear about this. Sounds, yeah, very interesting.

12:43 Speaker 1 So, so this Tanya curriculum was, was something which, um, uh, it was my second year now switching from doing Gemara Li'ayon to Gemara Yegersa. And this idea popped into my head to do Tanya Li'egersa 'cause I felt like a lot of people learn Tanya and they learn, you know, in, in, in yeshiva eight parashat a year or six parashat a year, and it's very, very good, but they, they don't necessarily know the bigger picture. They don't know... You, everyone knows the questions of the big Emorei Chazal of time, but where are those questions answered? Do you know where it is? Do you know? And then there's a lot of, like, Memorei Chazal or certain themes which come up again and again, and I, I felt like e- even me, when I came in and I was a mispellel, do I really know everything here? So my first, you know, year I had more time at the time, and fam- and it was a big families. I had more time to invest it heavily, heavily. And I created a curriculum where we basically went through the entire Gan Parashat over the year by night seder using Shiurei Musaf Tanya. So it's like a biur, but it's not too deep. It's like, you know, but, and Shiur Musaf Tanya has a very strong focus on the flow.

13:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:40 Speaker 1 And, um, after that, after I had the idea, um, either someone showed me or I ended up seeing, there's a letter of the Rebbe where someone was complaining to the Rebbe about not understanding Tanya, and the Rebbe says, "It's no different." And obviously it seemed like it was someone coming from a different community who was very big, maybe Bochur in Torah in general, and when he came to Tanya, he was coming in expecting to be able to learn it in a similar way that he was learning Nigla. And what the Rebbe was saying is, just like when you start learning Chumash and you start with Vayikra, and there's a little alef, you don't get all stressed by the little alef. You have the question, and we move on. And if you're a big Talmid Chacham, it'd be very hard for you to reckon, like, "Well, there's a big problem here." But you move on. You realize there's, there's a benefit in moving on. So the Rebbe's arguing, regarding Tanya also, you need a poshut learner first Li'egersa once, and, um, to know the whole picture before going into iyon.

14:25 Speaker 2 It's like a tremendous hesed to learn the whole Tanya once Li'egersa before? Like before-

14:28 Speaker 1 So I can-

14:29 Speaker 2 Before going deep

14:29 Speaker 1 ... I, I might be oversimplifying it, but it's quite clear that if you want to be able to understand it, the iyon, you need to do it Li'egersa.

14:35 Speaker 2 Right.

14:35 Speaker 1 And that's the way. And you know, if you speak to Magid Shiurei Musaf Nigla, and you speak to them, they'll all tell you the idea is, like you said, with Maayan in the Toisfes, which is quoting a Gemara in Davar Da'at. You haven't even learned Davar Da'at yet.

14:43 Speaker 2 100%.

14:43 Speaker 1 Do you know what I mean?

14:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:44 Speaker 1 And so you're like, "But my fav for basing my Dav..." Like, you have to have learned the first 10 blatts, which are the, the general sefiya, and then you can... It's in a similar kind of way. I mean, and, you know, and-

14:53 Speaker 2 Yeah. It, it sounds ingenious. It sounds like a no-brainer.

14:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

14:56 Speaker 2 You have to know the whole, uh, concept. The, the, you have to know the whole background before starting to analyze one specific detail.

15:02 Speaker 1 100%.

15:03 Speaker 2 But so you managed to do the-- With this curriculum, you do the entire Gan Parashat in one year.

15:08 Speaker 1 In one year.

15:08 Speaker 2 With Gemara and Sefar.

15:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:09 Speaker 2 And this is their first exposure to Tanya?

15:11 Speaker 1 No.

15:11 Speaker 2 So they've learned-

15:12 Speaker 1 Maybe before they've learned chaviv through lamed dalet.

15:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:14 Speaker 1 And maybe lamed heh and vav. I don't know how far they get.

15:16 Speaker 2 You know, so like the classic way of learning in yeshiva-

15:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:18 Speaker 2 ... meaning of, of-

15:18 Speaker 1 The parashat which are very-

15:19 Speaker 2 Right

15:19 Speaker 1 ... easily practical.

15:20 Speaker 2 Right.

15:20 Speaker 1 And chav test is, is interesting, but, uh, to how it's practical. But, um, yeah. And so this is... Yeah. And, and what, what, what... Depends on the y- This works really best for the top third. The, the lower chevra, they get it generally, but you need to, like, it-- To work, to move that speed and get generally, you need to be have, you know, pretty, pretty, you know, ready in, in, in chassidus in a decent way.

15:40 Speaker 2 Right.

15:40 Speaker 1 But I've sat down with my first year, which was, you know, I prepared also, so my head was, like, fully, fully into it. I remember sitting down Shavuos, so it was, like, really almost the end of the year. And I sat with a few bochurim around my, around my Yom Tov table.

15:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

15:50 Speaker 1 And they started going and asking questions. "Well, is this Mayim Marim? Is that Mayim Marim? Is that?" I had to ask the question. And I said, I gave them plus or minus one perek, but they knew where things were.

15:59 Speaker 2 Hmm.

15:59 Speaker 1 They're stronger. They knew where things were.

16:00 Speaker 2 Wow.

16:00 Speaker 1 There's a big, big value.

16:01 Speaker 2 Wow. For sure.

16:01 Speaker 1 And then they go and learn Chitas every day.

16:02 Speaker 2 Right.

16:03 Speaker 1 Here's the thing. You learn Chitas every day, people don't think where we're coming from, where we're going to.

16:06 Speaker 2 Right.

16:07 Speaker 1 But when you already have the big picture once, you have the whole map. So as you're going along now, you've got an awareness of where I am, where I'm going. Bochum told me that the, the, the, the, the, the transformation when they started Yud Tes Kislev learning Tanya, right? By Yud Tes Kislev, we're already in our program already to perek Yud Ches or Chaf.

16:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:24 Speaker 1 Right? Whatever it is. And maybe Yud Ches, whatever. And, and, and so they're coming in, and it slowly catches up by the time they end the year because I think it finishes on Shavuos. But it ends up basically medium. But the point is that the, the, the, the, the, the first Chitas they do is different.

16:35 Speaker 2 Right.

16:35 Speaker 1 This isn't the ideal-

16:36 Speaker 2 And it's like a Chazarah.

16:37 Speaker 1 Uh?

16:37 Speaker 2 It's a Chazarah.

16:37 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's basically a Chazarah.

16:37 Speaker 2 'Cause they're holding Yud Ches, which is already the second track of Tanya, and now they're, like, starting a Chazarah on the first track.

16:43 Speaker 1 Exactly.

16:43 Speaker 2 Wow. Beautiful.

16:44 Speaker 1 So, so that's been something which when it works well, again, like everything, you know, they have worksheets and some people focus too much on the worksheet. It's got its chitzonios. It's got, you know, like any issue which t- But the people which you can train to do it properly, and there's always a few every year. In some years it's a bigger group of 15 or 10, 20. Some years it's a smaller group of five, six. But the people that do it fully all learn it. It's a very... I mean, for me it was transformational. I'd never done it before like that.

17:05 Speaker 2 Right.

17:05 Speaker 1 I'd learned Chitas. I'd, I'd learned Tanya, and I, and I'd learned... But, uh, w- for me it was transformational. My whole relationship with the whole, you know... And, and I came to a point when I was learning Likutei Sichos and there was, it says like, "Mevo batanya." I would like, before looking at the bottom, I'd say, "Where is that?"

17:20 Speaker 2 Tanya, right.

17:21 Speaker 1 And there's something very, very rewarding about that.

17:23 Speaker 2 Sure.

17:23 Speaker 1 And the, the confidence gives the bochur, which-

17:25 Speaker 2 Sure. And if, if you think about it in terms of, like, we know that Tanya is the Terus B'tzav Sah, the same way that you wanna have this basic exposure to Chumash, where like, where's the story of Yaakov, or where's the start of the Dibros or something like that, you wa- you wanna be able to say where in Tanya does this discuss a certain topic?

17:41 Speaker 1 Exactly.

17:41 Speaker 2 Sure.

17:41 Speaker 1 Chumash, they have the same problem. And I asked-

17:43 Speaker 2 Right

17:43 Speaker 1 ... some bochur. I said, I'm like-

17:44 Speaker 2 Right

17:44 Speaker 1 ... "Does anybody know where the second time it says, you know, it says Diborim?" Some bochurim, unfortunately, again, depending on their background.

17:50 Speaker 2 Right. Sure.

17:50 Speaker 1 You know, dealing with very... You know, our yeshiva is very special. We've got, like, the full spectrum all together, and there's something very nice about that. But we-- Some of these chaval, unfortunately. But Chumash also needs the same thing, but Chumash is massive.

18:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're, it's, it's the Tanya.

18:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:04 Speaker 2 Um, the-- What, what do you feel bochurim connect to most on a relevant, on a, on a, on a-- Which part do you see, especially when they see the bigger picture? 'Cause I agree, there's something extremely powerful in seeing the bigger picture because you know, in ter-in terms of-- not just in terms of haskala, not just in terms of knowing the information better. Also, in terms of, of avoda, of connecting to Tanya, I think that, yeah, you can only really connect to the ideas of Tanya where you know where it's taking-- when you know where it's taking you. Let's, you know, I'm thinking like, uh, if it-- let's say you're, you're in the beginning of Tanya and you're learning about and the right? And you know it very well. But if you don't know where this-- why we're talking about and if you don't know about the, the bigger picture of the Beis Din and his struggles and the guidelines of the Beis Din, then even if you know it very well on a level and you could explain in the process and the difference and all that, w-what does it mean to me, right? Let's talk about it within the framework of Tanya and the Beis Din. So I, I do believe that, that probably when you know the bigger picture, not only do you appreciate the haskala of it more, you appreciate the relevance of it more.

19:14 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

19:14 Speaker 2 Do you, do you feel that? Do you see that? Do you see that bachurim are relate-- are, are connect... Especially like you said, I, I think this might be a perfect example. You said they're learning in, in the, in Cherbis, they're learning the Havav Prakim which talk about the, you know, the negative feelings, which is straight up Avoda. And then when they see the bigger picture, do you, do you hear feedback from bachurim that like, "Wow, I, I connect to this more. I, I, I feel its relevance more"? Now, obviously on a simple level, they're a year older and they're having another chazarah, so that's a virtue of itself.

19:44 Speaker 1 Right.

19:44 Speaker 2 But maybe also by seeing the bigger picture. Have you experienced that bachurim are able to feel the relevance more?

19:49 Speaker 1 So that's a good question. So first of all, in general, you know, feed-- you don't get much feedback.

19:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, of course.

19:53 Speaker 1 Um, um, so yeah. So the, the, the, again, the, the ones which benefit most, most again, this is a thing where like even just the Chevre which I haven't got the same strength are able to just grow because they get large amount of ideas even if they're not connecting all the dots. But the Chevre which really do, I mean, there's a building blocks here. You know, the first, the first eight Prakim are Pasuk building blocks, and then we get into Perek Tes which is like the battle and the-

20:19 Speaker 2 Right.

20:19 Speaker 1 So again, it's hard for me to know whether they've given me feedback. Um, I know for me what it's done, and I have some bachurim which come in which are very, very developed and they can-- and I can see that, you know, there, there's a... You know, and they, and they talk to me a year or two later, they're coming in zal, they're coming back to me to talk about Tanya. There's obviously some kind of connection they associate, you know-

20:38 Speaker 2 Sure.

20:38 Speaker 1 They connect the dots.

20:38 Speaker 2 Hundred percent.

20:39 Speaker 1 So I don't know whether-

20:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. By the way, you've been doing, you say you've been doing this for eight, nine, eight years.

20:42 Speaker 1 It's been eight years doing the Tanya thing, yeah.

20:43 Speaker 2 So, so that's where, that's where the feedback comes in because like yeah, exactly.

20:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:46 Speaker 2 As a teacher, we all know we don't get feedback on the spot.

20:48 Speaker 1 No.

20:48 Speaker 2 But, uh, it's, it's down the line we could get the feedback.

20:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:50 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:50 Speaker 1 So I've had bachurim which told me that Chitas was transformed, um, and I have bachurim which have to-- I have a bachurim which have gone in zal, a bachurim I'm thinking of right now, who went very much Beion into Tanya, and what really equipped him was that he, you know, he's... And he comes to me, told me, "You know, and I'm very impressed." Like, like you see the Cha thing because-

21:07 Speaker 2 Right

21:07 Speaker 1 ... 'cause here's the thing, like, like, you know, Prakim they're very, very, very deeply based upon what a Beis Din is. Which is empirically based. You give them what you done. They're very, very, very deeply connected. And now I've even spoken to the other Magid Shaul which are teaching us in a Prakim. We're talking set in Nadina. I'm like, "You know, in that Perek..." And it, it's important to really have, you know, the big picture. So again, I don't know whether... You know, you've also got to remember, some of the bachurim aren't that old.

21:32 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

21:32 Speaker 1 So it's hard for me to know how much they're aware and how much they're not aware.

21:35 Speaker 2 Sure.

21:35 Speaker 1 Um-

21:36 Speaker 2 By the way, a-a-a-again, it's not a Chinuch podcast. It's not about how to teach it to, to mesivta bachurim or to others. You'd be-- The, I, I think you started saying something about that you yourself. Like it's just a, it's an ability for us. Mashpiim are... Their Chassidus is their bread and butter. Chassidus is what they're learning and busy with. It's their, it's their passion-

21:58 Speaker 1 Right

21:58 Speaker 2 ... and their excitement. It's not even about how they therefore give it over versus how they therefore live it for themselves.

22:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

22:06 Speaker 2 And when they live it for themselves, then they're able, able to give it over.

22:09 Speaker 1 Comes through.

22:10 Speaker 2 Right.

22:10 Speaker 1 That's really the hard part. It-

22:12 Speaker 2 Why? What do you mean?

22:13 Speaker 1 That demands us to sit and actually work on ourselves despite our really busy lives. Like we sort of-

22:18 Speaker 2 Sure.

22:18 Speaker 1 We're busy preparing-

22:19 Speaker 2 Right

22:19 Speaker 1 ... but are we busy really preparing?

22:21 Speaker 2 Exactly.

22:21 Speaker 1 Are we preparing ourselves as people? And-

22:23 Speaker 2 Exactly

22:24 Speaker 1 ... that's much, much more difficult.

22:25 Speaker 2 It's more difficult. It's not gonna happen if your job is anything else. Or, I mean, I'm not saying it's not gonna happen, but you're in a much better opportunity 'cause you're getting paid to prepare to learn Chas- to learn Chassidus.

22:36 Speaker 1 And if that takes away a little bit.

22:38 Speaker 2 From? Because you're getting paid?

22:40 Speaker 1 Not because I'm getting paid. In other, in other words, the, the fact that you're having to prepare a shiur for a shiur, and there's something powerful. I mean, when I, when I learn Chassidus on my own, I feel no pressure to cover any amount of material to think about how I'm gonna say anything.

22:52 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

22:53 Speaker 1 Just sit and I learn Ois Vemaimar and I pause, and I just think about it a little bit, and I just, I like, you know, like it says in-- Can't wait. The, the, I think the Frieda Kabbalah uses this language, just to slow down, to hold, to... When you're preparing, it's very hard to do that.

23:09 Speaker 2 Right.

23:09 Speaker 1 'Cause first of all, you've normally got forty-five minutes- ... or thirty minutes or twenty. If anything, something happens at home, you're very, you're very-

23:15 Speaker 2 Forty-five seconds.

23:16 Speaker 1 It's very small, very short, and you, and you're relying a lot on what you've got in talent, in should, because the reason why we know-

23:21 Speaker 2 That, that's on time.

23:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. But, but at the same time though is, yeah, there's something Kashmakah about being able to just slowly... I mean, that's, that's why we really need to learn Chassidus ourselves.

23:28 Speaker 2 Right.

23:29 Speaker 1 Very, very importantly. But going Tanya about it, I would think, and this is actually a dream in a certain way of mine. I- It would be really cool if we could... You know, there's a lot of now courses coming along on this, on that for adults. I feel like if this... I mean, you could have a whole system set up, but it would be a cool idea if you could go and make, like for adults, they would go through a system of learning Tanya Giosa, and it would be a thing where like-

23:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

23:49 Speaker 1 ... this is a project. People go and they do in their own time this or that, and this project could be circus. There should be project times, but I call it Project Tanya, which means you do Gantt Prakim and you learn and you know the flow. You do it over the year. I can't remember, one of the Rabbeim had this thing where they would actually go and learn Gantt Prakim over the year, a Perek a week. It's such a seder.

24:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:06 Speaker 1 Because-

24:06 Speaker 2 Really?

24:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

24:07 Speaker 2 I've seen this. No.

24:08 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I, I've mostly seen it inside, but I remember a certain individual who told me this fifteen years ago, and he used to do it. And he-- you could see he... Because a Perek a week-

24:17 Speaker 2 Which means exactly a year, right?

24:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's, it's, it's not crazy. It's enough time to learn a Perek and make that be your thing that week. They give half an hour a day, thank you. I mean, I'm giving bachurim two hours of Perek and then the Chazal at the end. But if you give someone half an hour a day-

24:30 Speaker 2 Right. And it's only one time in their life. If you-- the more times you do this-

24:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:33 Speaker 2 Right.

24:34 Speaker 1 I mean, I, I, I feel like, you know, maybe it's, it's, it's a... Uh, 'cause I think, you know, you know they say youth is wasted on the young, right?

24:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

24:42 Speaker 1 So they have, they have all the time, but it's... I feel like, you know, this is such a deep and powerful thing that it would be most ap-be appreciated by, you know... I, I think it's important because they need it when they go to zal, but it would be appreciated even more by, you know, by older people, which, you know. But, um-

24:57 Speaker 2 So let, let, let... So imagine you were... I mean, this is, this is great and, uh, you know, maybe, uh, a listener will be inspired to either do this for themselves or, or, or s- or, uh, kickstart this project, you know? But imagine you were pitching this. Maybe you are. Maybe you're pitching this right now. Imagine you were pitching this idea. What would be the, the... What would be the consumer's reason to want to learn Tanya in that kind of way? In other words, we're talking to someone who learns Chassidus, who does Chitas, who learned Tanya in yeshiva, maybe even goes to share Tanya here or there, you know, Beis Yehudah maybe even like, you know, which is everything not what this is. What's the, what's the, what's the quality of n- of having this, um, of having this kind of ownership over Tanya? And I'll already challenge you, and if the answer is just to have it more academically, which is beautiful itself, to have more of a, uh, of a control-- a grasp over Tanya, which doesn't need, doesn't need justification. Or is there something, I'm pushing it back to, is there something where all of a sudden you'll be able to relate to the concepts of Tanya in a more real way?

26:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean-

26:12 Speaker 2 How would you pitch that? Like-

26:14 Speaker 3 It, if you don't see the bigger picture, you said this before yourself, if you don't see the bigger picture, you don't see the context of where certain ideas are. And this is not just academic, but if you wanna internalize anything, right? You need a, you need a... There's a, there's a broad view here that the Alter Rebbe is presenting, especially also the second half of Tanya, which by the way is even less known by most people.

26:38 Speaker 2 Right.

26:38 Speaker 3 It's more difficult.

26:39 Speaker 2 Right.

26:39 Speaker 3 And it's much longer, the style clearly changes. But, um, the bigger picture, right? If you haven't-- You have to get the bigger outlook and the way how dibartoynum weaves in, and there's kavon, and there's mait, and there's av, and lots of hashom and pareneunon, and there's-- and, and parenenzan. Th- I feel like when you, when... You can, you can only really internalize something in a real way when, when, when, when, when like you, you... Th- this small idea which you want to internalize is bro- part of a broader picture. I mean, I, I, to me it's obvious that- ... an idea can only really properly be, be, be, be internalized when it-- when you are seeing it the way it was given and the bigger picture of the entire thing, you know? It's called Perek Alef, Perek Beis, Perek Gimel for a reason. It's not like, you know, a year of Maimon, which even there by the way often there's a hem-- even with not often hem there's certain... It's, it's a safer of Tanya.

27:27 Speaker 2 Right.

27:27 Speaker 3 And it's Perek Alef through Perek, um, Gimel, and there's clearly one bigger, bigger thing being given over and-

27:32 Speaker 2 Right. It's not different Maimon.

27:34 Speaker 3 No, it isn't.

27:34 Speaker 2 It's one-

27:35 Speaker 3 It's one-

27:35 Speaker 2 ...sefer-

27:35 Speaker 3 One sefer

27:36 Speaker 2 ...with fifty-three projects.

27:36 Speaker 3 Hundred percent.

27:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

27:38 Speaker 3 So I, uh, y- yeah.

27:39 Speaker 2 Give me-

27:40 Speaker 3 I think, I think bechalal, I'll say one thing, is that, is that, um, you know, you're, you're talking here really about daas, is that I think even if you're gonna do this, and you know I've done it, um, and I do it every year now with the Bacharim. But no matter how much you're going to learn and how well you're gonna learn, and you'll feel by the way more confident. That's a big thing, by the way. Push it from Nevacham. You feel more of a confidence in, in Tanya. Like it's... Sometimes when we go and do things, we kind of feel like we haven't got the big picture. You feel a bit... Having a g- bigger picture of Tanya, it gives you something confidence, which is bechalal a good thing. But, um, a- and also bechalal, in order to bechalal have any daas, you have to have a good understanding of what you're talking about. But I'm saying bechalal with all of the learning, there needs to be this, this second thing, which is that, you know, the way I understand yid- yid-- daas is that, you know, our emotion is the way how we experience the world that we live in, and that's why, you know, for Nevacham things you don't need to think anything 'cause the Nevacham experiences things in the obvious way. That's what Nevacham is. Nevacham is shor in the heart, and the heart is what's experiencing the world. That's why it's an emotion, and you don't need to be bachakmah

28:36 Speaker 3 to experience the world. The Nefesh HaChayim dwells in the, in, in, in the molach because what we need to do is we need to basically go, and we need to rise above ourselves. That's what we need to be doing. And moseich what it means is leaving our experience and going into a certain space of, of, um, of leaving what we're comfortable with, leaving our, you know, our environment and the way we're seeing the world, and rising up to some other perspective. Which is important, and that's why we Nefesh HaChayim, it's about, you know, achas Hashem, and that's really important. But what's important over here is that afterwards we need to go and bridge that back down, because you don't feel and experience a reality which is outside.

29:13 Speaker 2 Hmm.

29:13 Speaker 3 And that no matter how much we're going to learn, we're not gonna be able to go, and we're not gonna be able to f-fully internalize it. So like I would argue that no matter how much, and you can argue about the, the values of such a system, but you, you need to have step two. It might be easy to do step two when you've got the bigger picture, but you need step two.

29:26 Speaker 2 So I think, I think this is-

29:27 Speaker 3 Yeah

29:27 Speaker 2 ...actually exactly the point of what I'm trying to th- see here. So you're-- you have this idea of Tanya, right? You learn Tanya. You, you, you're-- or anything else to this, and you're experiencing it on your brain level.

29:39 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

29:39 Speaker 2 And it's very geschmack, and you're, you're getting it, and you could repeat it, and you're getting tested on it. And then you're moving on in your day, and you're moving on in your life back to your, like you said, I think it's a great way to say it, Nefesh HaChayim is your, your, your natural experiences.

29:52 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

29:52 Speaker 2 And now the question is knowing the Chassidus and having it affect your actual life, right? So, so you're saying obviously that requires personal avoda. Uh-

30:03 Speaker 3 Daas means to just really, really... And again, I think this is why maybe in our generation we struggle with this most is because we live in a f- in a, in a, in an environment which is really d- very distracted environment. And, and daas, if you look Perek Gimel is, "Yitkah machshavtebichozuk." I think that's the word it uses. Which just means to rivet your attention. Like, you know, the word yitkah, like Nosson, you know, when it says he, you know, he set up his tent. Same word, yitkah, means to have a rivet. To, to, to peg your mind into something. That that's your whole world in this moment. And, um, with me, I struggle. I mean, I, I go and I have a brain with Bacharim, and Beshatz myself, I feel really connected to what I'm saying. And then the next day I wake up, and it's a struggle. I mean, it's a really, really, really big struggle. I mean, it's a hard thing. We-- Sometimes we feel like we're living in two worlds because we feel entirely different about things at different times. And I, I, I think that ultimately that, you know, it's the Ba- if, if as the Baba Sali was going to go now and spend time putting real effort into something to, to guide people, I would think daas should be the thing which we need to be told. And I understand that might be the goal of what you're trying to do in this podcast even is daas because,

31:07 Speaker 3 you know- There's so many people, such brilliant people and brilliant communicators and talented people, and still a lot of us still feel a certain gap.

31:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. One, one of the names that I had in mind, like one of the ideas for a name for this podcast was The Das Diaries.

31:23 Speaker 3 Right.

31:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. So like... Exactly, and that's why I th-- I'm, I'm st- I'm, I'm sticking on this because when you deal with Bachram, when... A-and it doesn't-- I don't mean Bachram like that age. See, when you're, when you're teaching Chassidus to people, so it's not an idea anymore.

31:40 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

31:41 Speaker 2 You want them to buy into what you're saying.

31:43 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

31:43 Speaker 2 So it has to be real. It has to be, it has to be relevant.

31:47 Speaker 3 Right.

31:47 Speaker 2 That's, that's the word. It has to be re-- I'm gonna keep on saying relevant. It has to be relevant. Um, can you, can you give me an example of, of... Gi-give me a topic in Chassidus, in Tanya. Give me a topic in Tanya that you feel, just from your experience, like that, that you see in your students or you see by yourself, that moment of, of the Das clicking-

32:09 Speaker 3 Right

32:09 Speaker 2 ... because it was, it was explained a certain way or-

32:11 Speaker 3 See, I'm not sure if this is like the literal expression of what Das means when we talk about Das.

32:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

32:17 Speaker 3 Um, I mean, there is this thing like for breaking, what we're really doing is we're talking about this, this ideas in a way which seems very much like Das. I'm not sure if that's really Das-

32:26 Speaker 2 Okay

32:26 Speaker 3 ... in the technical term of what it is. And to me, my argument might be that the fact that doesn't feel like a, you know, there's... But still, it has an effect for sure. But, but again, th-yeah, there is a way how we can communicate i-ideas in a way which seems to be similar to Das in the fact that the ideas are relating to this world around us that we live in.

32:44 Speaker 2 Right.

32:45 Speaker 3 Um, so one thing for me, and I, I, I felt as a Bakr is that, you know, the, the You know, uh, I, I say Davening-

32:54 Speaker 2 By Davening

32:54 Speaker 3 ... because we've gone in Chafes because I feel like that's probably where it's brought out the strongest.

32:58 Speaker 2 To Davening.

32:58 Speaker 3 Basically going Davening.

32:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

32:59 Speaker 3 It's Bechal, but there's this idea where we basically tell you that, um, the good that you do and the deep connection that you have during Davening is not discounted because of the Mashal Bezalel that you have, and that it's not real. It, it's not lacking in how real it is because of the Mashal Bezalel. And again, I think if my understanding, this idea applies far out of Davening. I think Davening is maybe, you know, where we, you know, where it says, talks about, like, you're facing an Efebahamas in a very, very strong way. So you, you, you know, it's like the most intense way where we experience it. But, um, in our life, we have this thing, you know, like, you know, and, and we feel sometimes, like very, very, very connected with what we are-- we're doing at a certain time, and then, then the next moment or very shortly afterwards, we feel the opposite. And, and, and that... To be able to talk about that in real terms of like... And I remember once, I remember once, and again, you remember what had an impact on you once, and I was, you know, in Yeshiva and El Tobak was bringing with us, and it was on Shabbos, and then I was like working hard and Davening, you know. And, and, you know, we're in L.A., and the moment, you know, you walk, you're Davening, and then as I walked out into the street, you go into the dining room, and you could see

34:08 Speaker 3 something, walking, someone walk by, you know, and, and, and, and it shatters your purity. It shatters like... And again, I, I, it's very-- I don't wanna ignore this, but like on a real, like let's talk on an emotional level, like I've worked to myself, and I'm trying to really like see the world in a bigger picture. And in one moment, it's like the, the world's not like what you think it is. You know, Mashbimor said you go to breakfast, and I think that's the kind of-

34:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

34:31 Speaker 3 ... how it play. And I th-think that I personally feel like we, we really need to talk to people with like... 'Cause some people, you know, use euphemisms, you know. But I, I, you-- I feel like you, you can talk delicately about the real struggles people have-

34:41 Speaker 2 Sure

34:42 Speaker 3 ... but in more of a delicate way without like being-

34:43 Speaker 2 Sure.

34:44 Speaker 3 So like for me, it's not breakfast. I would use example, like, you know, as Peter Bach, we live in L.A. I mean, L.A. today is very hard 'cause you walk in the street, you, you, you are, um... What's the word I'm looking for?

34:54 Speaker 2 Bombarded.

34:54 Speaker 3 You're bombarded. That's what you are. And, and it's, it's the place of Hollywood. It's a place of where they're trying to grab your attention. So like you're bombarded. Like you're literally... And you're coming in, and you're

35:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

35:02 Speaker 3 ... you're standing. You've got what you've got, and you're being bombarded. So the point is, is that, is that, that, that I remember then that afternoon, and Rashbi sat down with, and he was saying, "You know, when you sit for three minutes, and you're thinking about the Ibishuf for those three minutes, that is Emes Lamita and Chayil Elmei Lamom." It says in Tanya. Something very powerful about that. And, and, and then, and then you go, and you realize that within me, I've got two parts, two entire complete parts, right? The way it says in Tanya that it's not just one me, which is noted this way and that way, and therefore, you know, if I'm being pulled towards things which aren't good, that's a liar, then I'm not properly involved. That my, my Davening wasn't right. No, it's actually a battle going on. It's two separate beings. It's like a guy who's trying to come and disturb. So when you bring these down, it's very, very practical. You know what that's able to do? That's able to give you some sanity, really. To give some sanity. If, you know, if we wouldn't be able... And again, I don't know how people without, you know, Chassids Chabad, and they might have other Osias, which is basically the same idea without using my language. But to me, that gives me sanity. You know, like I'm like, on my way here, I'm sitting on the plane, and you know, and like there's like all these distractions going around,

36:07 Speaker 3 and I'm also trying to write a Panther Rabba. And, and there's something so vulnerable about it. Like it, it, it kinda hits really, really deep. Like, who am I? What am I? And you, you... But then you're able to say for a second, I kn-- like I've got these two things, and I know what I identify with, and then there's two things, and I... And it, it, it just creates a certain being able to be able to live with peace and with calm-

36:26 Speaker 2 Mm

36:26 Speaker 3 ... and not, you know, not get so overwhelmed by the other side coming. And I, I'll give you another example, more Binon Chavera, you know. Um, and I remember my f- I remember my Bachram. That's quite honest. And again, one of like when I remember my Bachram, I like to be... I want them to get the feeling like I'm in the trenches with them. Like a-again, I'm not, I'm, I'm delicate. I'm Mashpia. I'm, I gotta do things in a, in a, in a delicate way. But like, so in Binon Chavera, I was speaking to them, you know, how sometimes I, you know, I have friends and, you know, we're close friends, and sometimes I feel jealousy of them. And, you know, if we're really, really honest, unfortunately, a lot of the politics that's going on in the world is due to jealousy. Or money. Or money, whatever it is.

37:11 Speaker 2 Yeah.

37:11 Speaker 3 But it's some form of My, my, you know, being, being threatened by something else. We're all, you know, Taklis, we're told it's more maybe natural habits, but we're all-- as humans, we just kind of wanna feel that we're meaningful, like we have purpose, and we've, we've, we've got value. And everyone's trying to find their way, and, uh, uh, and when we're, when we're doing that, and we're-- and, you know, who are we? I w-- I care about helping a Bachar, helping a Yid, coming, realizing the Shama. But then at the same time, if you're really honest, what happens is, is we go, and we find that these middas come up. And like, you know, my good friend, we both care about the same things or doing-- normally feel jealous of people doing similar things to you, and you feel jealous. A-a-and there's something about it which seems, like, so wrong and, like, wait a second, if you're really about, you know, the Hasidist that you're teaching, and you're really about the Ibishter, how could you? Uh, um, um, the model I take, and I speak to the Bachar, and I think myself is, "No, it's fine. Like, like, give it a bit of space. Like, let it be." Not in a way whereby I'm gonna run with it, not in a way that I'm taking it serious, but recognize this is another voice. Recognize there's another voice, and there's nothing wrong with that, and that's to be expected. Part of what Tanya does, you know,

38:20 Speaker 3 is, is, is it creates a, a realistic expectation. I remember once going to Rabbi Shapiro in LA, and I was, like, talking to him about how I want the Ibishter, and I was like... Uh, but still I'm like, "All these things are bombarding me." And he said, like, "Welcome to Olam Hazeh." And he was telling me this is Tanya. And I'd looked Tanya, but that's not about how he said it. Like, that, you know, what that... It's like, yeah. Like, Tanya is creating a really realistic expectation that you are going to have. Now, you take Ibishter, you're dying, you don't allow it to fester. And I was-- with me, with my friend, regarding jealousy, is I go, and we know we're really good friends, and he knows I've got Nefsha Hamis. I know he's got Nefsha Hamis. You know, we're honest. We-- It's like, come on. Be honest. You know, I, I just have certain feelings of jealousy. And when I actually even talk it out, the whole thing deflates because it grows when we like... But-- And it's like, I've got Nefsha Hamis. Like, I have a thing. Sometimes I remember like, "I have a Nefsha Hamis. You've got Nefsha Hamis. We've all got Nefsha Hamis." "And, uh, let's go and conquer the world."

39:10 Speaker 2 Right.

39:10 Speaker 3 Something about it which is just so calming. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and you know, like, I've always felt, and again, I don't know, everyone's different. Different personalities are very passionate. I've always felt like I'm very much strongly a struggler. And, and I, I, I struggled so much. Like, who am I? And you know, I'm like... But there's just some peace you can go, and you can just understand that this is just gonna be a part of our life. Some people might say it's discouraging. To me, it's encouraging. It's like-- It's just like there's something very, very powerful about not misleading people with expectations that aren't real.

39:45 Speaker 2 Okay.

39:45 Speaker 3 And you know, when we talk about like... Uh, you know, and a lot of, uh-- I remember once hearing somebody say, you know, and he was talking about other k- you know, and other kids sometimes they talk about these very high levels. You, you remember. And, and they talk, "Oh, you're learning with this forum." And it's like something about it is really inspiring because being able to be in that level is really, really good. But, but then you're, you're bombarded with the reality that's not your reality. So it ends up becoming not relevant. But once Tanya comes in, Tanya says, "Listen, I'm not cutting any corners. Kedusha and Klipa, there's no gray area."

40:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

40:11 Speaker 3 Kedusha is Klipa. Tanya is very strong demands.

40:14 Speaker 2 Right.

40:15 Speaker 3 Really.

40:16 Speaker 2 Right.

40:16 Speaker 3 You can't fool yourself.

40:17 Speaker 2 It's extreme.

40:17 Speaker 3 But on the other hand-- It's extreme. But on the other hand, it's also telling you your expectations. I'll give you expectations. So unless you become a tzadik, you want the lucky flu-- lucky few, you are going to have this side of you.

40:29 Speaker 2 Oh.

40:29 Speaker 3 Come to terms with it.

40:30 Speaker 2 Right.

40:30 Speaker 3 Allow it.

40:31 Speaker 2 Exactly.

40:31 Speaker 3 To me, this, this has saved me. And again, there's more regarding this. We can develop this a little bit more.

40:36 Speaker 2 Right.

40:37 Speaker 3 But this saves me. Just this aspect of giving Nefsha Hamis a space that is going to try to pull me away and, and, and, and don't let that make me lose my sense of identity who I am.

40:45 Speaker 2 Right. So I wanna develop exactly that, the identity of the Nefsha Hamis. Because let's say Perek Chaf Chas, right? So we're telling you that you have two Nefashas, right?

40:52 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

40:53 Speaker 2 Or let's say what you just said about, you know, a Yid could feel like, uh, what's going on? I want Delikos, and, and I-- then I have Tayves. So in a way, uh, this is a lot more basic. Um, in a way, that's the whole Vart of Tanya of it's not Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara, which you can find in Sifrei Mussar and really in Shulchan Aruch.

41:13 Speaker 3 Yeah.

41:13 Speaker 2 It's Nefesh like it's Nefsha Hamis.

41:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

41:15 Speaker 2 In other words, a lot more about your identity. So now if we say that-- So there's one track which is for sure familiar in Chassidus, especially in the Rebbe's Torah, where the identity of the Yid is his Nefesh HaKodesh.

41:26 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

41:26 Speaker 2 But we're not Tzadikim. And in the world of Tanya, the identity of the Benoni, and certainly of Rasha-

41:32 Speaker 3 Perek Chaf Chas says it clearly.

41:33 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. He, he, Adam HaMatzmoi, right? That, uh, the per- the person's identity is-

41:38 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

41:39 Speaker 2 ...the Nefsha HaHamis. So one second. So if my identity is the Nefsha HaHamis, right? Why-- W-w-what's the power that I have? In other words, why do I wanna identify as the Nefsha HaHamis? What's the-

41:52 Speaker 3 Why would I wanna identify as Nefsha HaKodesh? You're saying, well, why-

41:54 Speaker 2 No, why would I want to identify as Nefsha HaHamis?

41:56 Speaker 3 Yes.

41:56 Speaker 2 In other words, like, is it-- There is this track in Chassidus where no, don't worry because even if you have a Tayva, that's not really you. The, the, the Rebbe's, the, the high-leveraged Rambam, you know, we're telling the, the, the Yetzer who should talk for you.

42:07 Speaker 3 Right.

42:07 Speaker 2 A Yid really wants to do mitzvahs. In other words, that-- and if you wanna borrow those words, the Yid's real identity is Nefsha HaKodesh.

42:13 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

42:14 Speaker 2 And I'm not coming to the, the-- this to be the topic that's clear. I'm not. That's, that's not the discussion, unless you really wanna turn it to that share. But, uh-

42:20 Speaker 3 Right. No, no, no. Ask you. Let's talk Avodah to address that.

42:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Let's go. Forget the, forget the text or forget the, the, the nuances of the, of the s- of the, of the words. Let's talk about the concept of how a person, a regular Yid, a B- B- Benoni, right? A Halevi Benoni is trying to go through his day, and he has the identity of Nefsha HaKodesh. He knows that, that, yeah, every time he does a mitzvah, this is the, the, the

42:43 Speaker 3 ...

42:43 Speaker 2 Like you mentioned before.

42:44 Speaker 3 Yeah.

42:44 Speaker 2 And this is really who you are. And then when you counter a Tayva, like you said, to let it be, to be okay with it because you know that this is also who you are. This is your identity.

42:53 Speaker 3 Yeah.

42:53 Speaker 2 So what's the power of n-- It's true, so we're not gonna whitewash it. That's, that's not my question. Why would we say that? We're saying it because it's true. What's the inherent value of knowing that we are the Nefsha HaHamis?

43:06 Speaker 3 Can I say?

43:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

43:07 Speaker 3 So, so first, in one line I'll say is the Nefsha HaHamis being our identity is an inescapable reality.

43:13 Speaker 2 Sure.

43:14 Speaker 3 The nefesh elokis being our iden-identity is the truest reality-

43:19 Speaker 2 Mm.

43:19 Speaker 3 -that we, that we strive for. We like-- And to me, I'll quote... So, so here's another thing. So this was like, for me as a bachur, this was transformational. I was like nineteen, and I was trying to figure out who I was. I was... And there was... Uh, uh, there's more I could bring, but let me just bring one mashal of the Rebbe, which Rebbe brings different times with different emphasis. But to me, this is like m-one mashal in which it talks to me very, very deeply. There's the mashal which the Rebbe gives of, um, chassidim traveling to the Rebbe. And you probably know the mashal, but there's different emphasis. Chassidim traveling to the Rebbe, and in order for them to go to the Rebbe, what they need to do is they, they're far away. They can't walk there. So they go to the, um, wagon driver to pay him money. And then the wagon driver goes to the animal and whispers into his ear. There's different versions of this, where he says, "You know, when we get to Lubavitch, we're gonna give you a big, big stack of hay."

44:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

44:07 Speaker 3 And, um, point is, they're going to Lubavitch. In the back of the wagon, the chassidim are talking about achdus Hashem and the Rebbe, and then the wag-wagon driver's thinking about money, and the animal's thinking about hay. One way of th-saying it, and we'll speak two sides, and we'll, we'll break it down more, is even though the animal's thinking about hay, the chassidim, which are the whole reason why it's happening, are thinking about the Ibister. Flip side is the chassidim, with all the thinking about the Ibister, wouldn't be able to get there without the animal thinking about hay.

44:34 Speaker 2 Hmm. Right.

44:35 Speaker 3 So the reality we need to be come to terms with is our nefesh behamis is our most external self and for a reason. That's the end of Tanya. Second half of Tanya, Lamed Heh, Lamed Vav. Nefesh chayyim, that's the yechidat ha'toinim.

44:52 Speaker 2 Right.

44:52 Speaker 3 It's not by chance. And especially now in yechidat ha'toinim, Rebbe, like, built this up even stronger because, like, this is the final moments, and I, I feel like maybe the world's even changed that direction. Nefesh behamis becoming even more central with the whole mental health movement because we're going in that direction. We can get to them, move soon, more soon. But-

45:04 Speaker 2 Sure. Well said.

45:05 Speaker 3 -the point is, is that, um, this is our most conscious outer self, our personality, the way we feel about life, the way we live in this world, right? The way you know me and I know you as personalities, that's nefesh behamis. That's what it really is.

45:18 Speaker 2 Mm.

45:19 Speaker 3 And, and that's, uh, call that motivation. That's what's gonna make you do anything. And we need to go and find a way to get our nefesh behamis on board.

45:28 Speaker 2 So, so-

45:28 Speaker 3 'Cause nothing's gonna get there.

45:29 Speaker 2 Right.

45:30 Speaker 3 So with nefesh elokis-

45:31 Speaker 2 Nefesh elokis-

45:32 Speaker 3 -the real in-real intent behind is about the Ibister. But to actually get it, it needs to go and almost trick nefesh behamis in.

45:40 Speaker 2 Right.

45:41 Speaker 3 And it-

45:41 Speaker 2 So to clarify, we're not talking about the Yetzer Hara.

45:43 Speaker 3 No, motivation.

45:43 Speaker 2 We're talking about the favorites.

45:44 Speaker 3 Yeah, motivation.

45:44 Speaker 2 We're talking about the nefesh behamis.

45:45 Speaker 3 That's... Le-le-let me switch here, which was the-

45:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

45:47 Speaker 3 Nefesh behamis before I was talking about doing nefesh behamis, about how it's through to your Torah.

45:50 Speaker 2 Chassidim.

45:51 Speaker 3 Maybe.

45:52 Speaker 2 Right.

45:52 Speaker 3 Mashal vis a vis drink or... And Tanya, Tanya is, Tanya even, even mashal vis a vis, but for sure mashal vis a vis. Here I'm going now and switching a little bit more about-

46:00 Speaker 2 Right. Let's clarify.

46:00 Speaker 3 -to address that, you know, because the other thing is knowing your identity to just, uh, come to terms with it. But here I'm going saying not just that. To make you do everything good that you do, you need to have a proper understanding. Like, I have this thing that-- and if we go back and use this language, if I remember, I think I've seen it quoted, that you have to know your nefesh behamis.

46:19 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:19 Speaker 3 Which might mean, like, where is it gonna get you? But again, the way I understand it also is not where's it gonna pull you away, but also have to know your nefesh behamis, how to get it in.

46:28 Speaker 2 Right.

46:28 Speaker 3 And there's a certain, there's a certain... To bring out this idea stronger, there's a certain, like, steering, a Maarech Chazal, that, um, in one place it says, "Leolam yaaseh ki b'torah sh'lo lishma u'mashma sh'lo lishma." And the language, and again, I've, I heard this from Mashpia. I never... The Rebbe apparently is middayek leolam. It doesn't just say, like, "If you've got sh'lo lishma, it's okay 'cause at least you're doing the right thing." And torah sh'lo lishma says, like, nations will get to that. But it's leolam, which sounds like seek it out, look for it.

46:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

46:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

46:56 Speaker 2 Like there's a value in sh'lo lishma.

46:57 Speaker 3 Because it's gonna get you there.

46:59 Speaker 2 Right.

46:59 Speaker 3 But then when you do that, you're like, "Am I real? Am I really doing the Ibister? Am I certain myself? What's going on over here?"

47:04 Speaker 2 Right.

47:04 Speaker 3 There's another Maarech Chazal which says, "Al tiyu kavod u'meshameshes rav al naas al kavod pras." You've got on one place saying leolam, and then saying al tiyu. Now, again, I think the simple answer you might say is one's moser nefesh, yesod, but for some reason I think the Rebbe doesn't reject, reject that. And what is the vote? Because I heard this from the Rosh actually. I've never seen it said. But he says, "Al tiyu kavod" means your etzem avdus to the Ibister cannot be for any reason. Your avdus, why I'm in this world, what is my purpose, who am I here for, is for the Ibister. You can't have av- The reason why you're in this world is not for yourself. Bottom line, your etzem avdus. But then in the mechanism to-

47:34 Speaker 2 Mm

47:34 Speaker 3 ... to, to, to, to get on board and to make it happen is leolam sh'lo lishma.

47:40 Speaker 2 Right.

47:40 Speaker 3 And that's when we say torah sh'lo lishma. Torah sh'lo lishma isn't just a saying like, "Really, really, really want to do the right thing." It's a more powerful thing. It's like the, the, the, the, the, the real motivation behind the external motivation is the chassidim that want to travel to the Rebbe because they don't want chassidus, they want a Rebbe. The mechanism they'll do is they'll go, they'll use your nefesh behamis, and they'll find a way in. They'll... That's how they'll do it. That's the way in. That's why I think it's so important for us to, to be realistic. Um, especially again, if we just bring back to chinuch from them, we, we need to be able to bring people on board. And to bring people on board, we need to build them up. I've, I've felt a little bit... You know, I, when I was younger, I went to a Litvisher school for a good few years, so I saw both sides. And I, I felt, this is my hareigos, I felt in the Litvisher schools there was way too much emphasis on sh'lo lishma. And maybe in the Lubavitch, because we're like, and especially Misifters, a lot of love talk about lishma.

48:30 Speaker 2 Hmm.

48:31 Speaker 3 And that's great, and we need to talk that. That's an av. But we also need to realize that, that we're dealing with people, and we want them to be sustained, involved, and we need to motivate them. And you and I know as Machankum, we need to give a person a good word. We need to make a bachur feel like, "Oh, Rabbi, what? I know Rabbi kind of like me. They see me, my strength. They see me for who I am." Like, the people I listen to best were the people that I felt they like me, and that's why my job in chinuch is to try to make people feel like they know that I like them. I see them. I know that I like them. I see their nefesh behamis, and I kind of give little treats to their nefesh behamis.

49:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:07 Speaker 3 Not external. We're not giving candy because they're not the young. I know many young. But when they're older, build them up. Make them feel... I can say, "Oh, well, there's a bit of a yasher comes in." When we've kind of got them to some place they know enough, chassidus involved enough, through the nefesh behamis, we can slowly like... And also, the Moshe Rabbi Machsiel Mutta, that's also regarding the whole idea of leolam, right?

49:23 Speaker 2 Right.

49:24 Speaker 3 They go-- What have we? We've only got tachlis. Like, they might-- the yasher might lead them to want to go the whole sefer Likkutei Sichos in one go, and they will. I mean, let's be honest, right? Why is someone doing the whole thing? Halichot, whatever it is, yeah?

49:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

49:32 Speaker 3 Because there's some nefesh behamis calling.

49:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

49:34 Speaker 3 But the Moshe Rabbi is gonna talk to them, and, and they're gonna... It's going to. But we need a, on the one... So we need to be, be running the simultaneous thing of, on the one hand, talking Emes, Kemosi, and Shehu. And maybe by Farbrengens, that should be, again, people might argue for... When it should be which. Some people argue even by the way that, you know, the, the way the Rebbe spoke to people, you know, in a Far- the way the Rebbe spoke to Farbrengens, the way the Rebbe spoke to people one-on-one. In Igress, you can tell there's a little bit of a difference, you know. The way I feel maybe a little bit more is, is you hear a lot of stories, yechidus. The Rebbe gave a lot of room to nefesh behamis, and the Rebbe wasn't pushy on people even to what, what to do, what to do, what not to do, and never gave space.

50:12 Speaker 2 Right.

50:12 Speaker 3 'Cause I think people need to be able to choose. You need to be able to-

50:15 Speaker 2 First, first can you give an example of that? What do you mean rabbi gave... Like-

50:17 Speaker 3 I, I don't know. I, I-

50:18 Speaker 2 Okay

50:18 Speaker 3 ... I read a lot of my encounters, my stories where the rabbi-- People talk a lot how the rabbi told them exactly what he, what he wanted them to do.

50:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

50:27 Speaker 3 But it wasn't in a way whereby he took away their choice.

50:30 Speaker 2 Right.

50:31 Speaker 3 It was in a way whereby he wanted them... Now, again, that could be true with Behir, but I-- The way I feel, and again, I might be wrong, it's just Mehaish, is that also people need the Nefsha Bahamis to buy in, and they need to kind of come to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to calling themselves. I had recently a bachur who's an old talmid of mine. He's already in Yeshivah Bais Zal, and I was... He, he... I knew that he was mesupak whether to come here or to go somewhere else, and he was trying to find himself. And as I'm walking down the hallway, and I try to keep up with my old guys. I, I was speaking to him, I was like, "How are you? So you're back in Yeshivah," I tell him. He's like, "Yes, it's the right place. It's good for me." And I started telling him, I think, just in one comment I said to him, "I feel like that's not your own voice. I feel like that's, that's somebody else's voice."

51:13 Speaker 2 Mm.

51:15 Speaker 3 And three days later, he comes to me, says, "I wanna talk to you." We only got together like a month or two later, and he told me first of all that me saying that to him felt like I was seeing him. I'm not seeing him. When I say him, I mean his passion and dreams. And we ba- it basically came to a point where he realized that his decision to come to Yeshivah had largely been... This Yeshivah and continue on, had largely been due to pressure from other people. And because he's told and he knows he's bottom of the house, so you respect authority, people know better. It was in a way whereby it wasn't like he heard them, and he, like, tried to internalize what they said. And even if maybe he didn't fully feel it, but he chose it because he recognized the value. Maybe like Kabbalas Ol as in the Kabbalah part of it. Like, to choose. It felt almost like he had deferred his decision and relied on them. Like, you know, some people, unfortunately, I feel like with Mashpia maybe they go to Mashpia, and it's in a way whereby they're not working with the Mashpia to come. They're like, kind of just sometimes it's easy to just defer your decision and to like say, "Whatever you say, Rabbi." And when people do that, when bachur did, "Whatever you say, something doesn't talk to me." 'Cause like... And I was trying to really encourage him to like... I'm like... And,

52:16 Speaker 3 and he was, he was very, very unhappy in Yeshivah because he, he wasn't there really. He's not there. And I, I'm trying to help him, like, "You need to come here for your own self and to choose and to look and to open, discover Yid Harug, and, and buy in yourself." He was like, it was entirely not his own.

52:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

52:32 Speaker 3 So that's my point. I feel like there needs to be a little bit of room given. A- a- and I feel for the long term, we wanna build people up. We need to find a way of giving people, you know... And that's why, you know, when sometimes bachurim come to me and tell me, "I don't wanna learn." My immediate impulse as a teacher want-- is to shut them down. "What do you mean? You come here to waste time, do nothing." But when you actually give them a little bit of moment, "You don't wanna learn." I remember once a bachur came to me, gave me a whole speech, and I sat down. We had a bit of time. It was the last day of Yeshivah before Pesach. Came a bit of time, and he, he explained to me fully, fully why he didn't wanna learn, and I understood him. I didn't think it was the right thing for him to do, but I understood why he felt he didn't wanna learn. And it was the right time. I had quiet, at least some guy sat with me ten minutes. And at the end, I casually, I actually really get you and I understand. I said, "It'll be a pity." I feel like two hours ago, you know? "It'll be a pity not to learn." And at the end of the evening, he came up to me and said he ended up learning really, really well.

53:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

53:21 Speaker 3 Like, not everything works and like, like, you know-

53:23 Speaker 2 Yeah

53:23 Speaker 3 ... it's a nice story to have.

53:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

53:24 Speaker 3 But there was something about that where, like, when you do that, you, you... He basically... You're giving him a little bit of a voice. I, I'm, I'm showing him that I actually trust you. You c- in other words, like, you, you... Like, you can have your opinion that you don't want to, and I understand that. And if we're really honest, sometimes we also don't want to. But there's a saying, well, we can choose to do the right thing in a certain way, and that's what really Kabbalas Ol means. Kabbalas Ol means not I force him.

53:48 Speaker 2 Right.

53:48 Speaker 3 But I give him a moment to, like, be, to experience what he's experiencing, and, and, and try to encourage him to make the right choice for him to choose. But when he's chosen, even if the choice is a Kabbalas Ol choice, which is like, as far as I'm concerned, I would just much rather not. But I've empowered him, like, you are a person who can have the power to choose. I, I, I, I, I'm not just like, like Zohar kind of thing. Like, you learn the Zohar, the words are going to alive in you. I know you don't wanna learn, just listen to me. And the very fact that you're going to a Mashiah, Matzias Hamashiah, which is probably truth, but even if I force them, the Torah doesn't think.

54:17 Speaker 2 Right.

54:17 Speaker 3 But we want Bechalav Av Chalav. We wanna have, you know, him being more present. He's never having to be present. I felt giving a little bit of a, of space and allowing him to choose. And I think, and I'm talking about Chinuch being in the long term.

54:27 Speaker 2 Right.

54:27 Speaker 3 And we're trying to go into it, but it's about giving people time for them to step in and them to buy in themselves. And, and, and, and I felt sometimes that we... Again, this is Behir, but also ties back. You go into giving space Nefsha Bahamis, is we just need to give sometimes, although it's really hard as a teacher, to give a little bit of room for people to have that little bit of rebellion, a little bit of... 'Cause it, it, it... When you're doing that, you're allowing them to show up.

54:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

54:49 Speaker 3 And then you can try to guide them as they've shown up.

54:51 Speaker 2 Right.

54:52 Speaker 3 Make a Kabbalas Ol choice. Choose for the Habish Da to do because it's a mitzvah. And that talks Nefsha Bahamis also. But it also, it talks Nefsh- 'cause there's, there's some way how that when you allow people to go and to choose to do something because it's emes, it's really Nefsha Chayim 'cause like why would I do that? There's also it talks Nefsha Bahamis. You're empowering them to say, "I can really want the other way, but I can choose." I feel that to me, and this is something I've developed, especially in the more recent years, there's something very, very, very powerful about just... You know, and, and people have their personality and who they are, and if we want people to be part, we need to allow them to show up with who they are in Nefsha Bahamis.

55:25 Speaker 2 Right.

55:26 Speaker 3 And find ways to buy in Nefsha Bahamis.

55:28 Speaker 2 So let, let's, let's take that ex-

55:30 Speaker 3 Yeah

55:30 Speaker 2 ... this exact discussion, which, um, is about for a bachur or for someone else.

55:36 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

55:36 Speaker 2 Let's translate that into ourselves.

55:38 Speaker 3 Yeah.

55:39 Speaker 2 Let's talk as if we're s- the same conversation.

55:42 Speaker 3 Yeah.

55:42 Speaker 2 Um, you know, allowing the bachur to be heard.

55:45 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

55:45 Speaker 2 Allowing the bachur to be seen. Um, giving... You know, even allowing the bachur to say, "I don't wanna learn," stuff like that.

55:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

55:51 Speaker 2 Which is very powerful in, in, uh, in Chinuch. And-

55:55 Speaker 3 Beshulan.

55:55 Speaker 2 But-

55:56 Speaker 3 See, but how can it be in ourselves?

55:57 Speaker 2 Oh. So let's now translate that into our own Nefsha Bahamis, right?

56:01 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

56:02 Speaker 2 Let's talk about the Chinuch of the Nefsha Bahamis. In other words, let's use those ... expressions of Hasidus. Well, you're saying it in a Chinuch world.

56:11 Speaker 3 Yeah, but it's the same.

56:11 Speaker 2 Let's talk about it for ourselves. Yeah, I know it's the same. It sounds the same, so it's-

56:13 Speaker 3 Okay. So, so, here, here's-- So, so maybe, again, I don't wanna be dishonest 'cause the word DeCherev Bishta Yad Ayim in Tanya is very, very strong terms.

56:21 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

56:22 Speaker 3 Uh, let me just say this is how I feel, and I'm gonna, I'm saying with all due humility. I wanna, wanna be careful.

56:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's a big-

56:28 Speaker 3 But there's something I feel like, I gave the example of the jealousy there. What I did, and maybe this is what DeCherev Bishta Yad Ayim means, I don't know. What I did is, is I didn't sh- get stressed about the fact that it was there, which would be shutting myself down and, and, and not allowing, which sometimes in a certain way that feels like it makes me very Mekubatz. There was something great about being able to go and say, "It's here, but it's not me." Do you see what I'm saying? Like, it makes sense. I've got Nefesh behemah. I'm gonna feel jealous of a friend. I am trying to be a good teacher. I wanna feel like I'm a good teacher and have another friend who's, in certain ways, doing things very, really well, and I, and I actually admire it. But also, like, the, the... because of my own Nefesh behemah, ego, insecurity, whatever it is, it's delicate. But, uh, in a certain way, it's about, like, just not freaking out about it. It's just giving a moment of space. It, it's DeCherev Bishta Yad Ayim in the fact that this is not me, but it's not DeCherev Bishta Yad Ayim of shut it down, don't let it be, don't... How, how could you even think of such a thing?

57:31 Speaker 2 Right.

57:32 Speaker 3 You know? And, and, and that's a really powerful point 'cause what I'm doing there is I'm-- And what that does is that allows me to, like, to be present in this and to... Uh, uh, something about that, it feels more Berit and feels like I'm actually going to be able to, to, to actually sustain that. Like, I am actually being able to sustain my issue of jealousy w- which comes up much more by me being able to just allow it to be here, allow it to say it's not me, talk to my friend and we can laugh together. Like, it kinda makes sense, right? He get it, he gets it. We're a really good friend. He gets it. It makes total sense. Given the first place, it's cute. We've got Nefesh behemah. And, like, something about this, this Berit approach and it, and, and, and it allows my Nefesh behemah to be like-

58:12 Speaker 2 I think it's a great fact

58:12 Speaker 3 ... I feel jealous, but there's something about that that just feels to me like I'm able to be, like, much, much more showing up in my not jealousy than if I were to just to go and just to wring out, you know, just twist it out. Now, that-

58:24 Speaker 2 Right

58:24 Speaker 3 ... that's an example where I feel like just giving a, a, just a little moment, a little Chaf in the moment of like... And most of it says that DeCherev Bishta Yad Ayim-

58:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

58:32 Speaker 3 But you can al- talking in a philosophical way.

58:34 Speaker 2 Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah

58:34 Speaker 3 But in a very, you know, you know, emotional Nefesh behemah way, there's something about that which, you know, allows me to be able to like... I, I, I'm regarding a lot of things. Like, maybe a bit, but this is, like, the obvious one in my mind right now, which I like, which is the example I think of a lot and, and I mean-

58:47 Speaker 2 I think this is about being realistic, that you said before.

58:49 Speaker 3 Yeah.

58:49 Speaker 2 I think that's the Varp. Like, being realistic means that... So again, just like being realistic with, in terms of the Bachar, like you said before, like, you know, especially y- you, you, you talked about the, the, the contrast of in the Litvishe place where it's more the Shalot Lishmah, and then maybe in Lubavitch it's too Lishmah and too, um, too, what's the word? Too, um-

59:10 Speaker 3 Altruistic

59:10 Speaker 2 ... altruistic. Thank you. And, uh, and, and therefore automatically be le- less realistic.

59:15 Speaker 3 Mm.

59:15 Speaker 2 So the-- You're saying that maybe the, the realistic is the Nefesh behemah part of it.

59:20 Speaker 3 Yeah.

59:20 Speaker 2 In other words, the altruistic part is the Nefesh Elokis, and not altruistic in a, in a fluffy way and in a, a delusional way because that is who you are. That's then, like you said before, the real, uh-

59:32 Speaker 3 It's the Siddim in the wagon. The whole trip's happening 'cause of them.

59:34 Speaker 2 Exactly. Exactly. That's, that's a beautiful framing. That, uh, yeah, the whole point is that, right? And then comes the, the, the... Now, okay, so this goes to my next point, which is, I mean, this goes when what I wanna ask about, which is in this framing, the Nefesh behemah is baggage. The Nefesh behemah is what?

59:57 Speaker 3 It seems, but yeah.

59:58 Speaker 2 Okay. So that, that's what I wanna develop.

59:59 Speaker 3 Mm.

59:59 Speaker 2 Because there is what you, you said before, the second half of Tanya, the Dibrot Acharonim, and then as that's in Darshvi, right? That becomes entire focus in Darshvi. Um-

1:00:10 Speaker 3 Yeah. The volume's turned up on those parts.

1:00:11 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Right. Uh, uh, yeah, exactly. So y- you, you said before you started thinking about mental, that that's why it's like a mental health-

1:00:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. I, I, and I, I don't mind talking about, um, contemporary framing of it. I don't think we need to.

1:00:25 Speaker 2 No, but-

1:00:25 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:00:25 Speaker 2 ... but my point is just that, is that, like, I've heard people present this, and again, it might be a very, very overly simplistic. I mean, I didn't live thirty years ago or fifty years ago, I don't know. But there was definitely in the past a very, very strong emphasis on, like, soldier on, push through, and again, people went through... You couldn't. In the past, the circumstances did not allow you to be able to go and to really, you know, to like take, give, you know. Like, people just had to do it. Uh, uh, but then as we've kind of settled into this place where we've got a lot of Gashmius, you know, the, the, the whole, there's a whole shift now where, like, people and the pe- aren't-- People wanna be able to be fully, fully in, in what they're doing. When they're doing, they wanna do it wholesomely. They don't wanna just be pushing on and, and twisting themselves like, like that, right? They wanna be, be fully showing up. And, um, and again, this is... Like, I, I heard once, I think it was, it was, I think it was Rabbi Bell heard it. He was explaining how, what is the difference between the Shluchim of the Frieda Keraba. It's kind of Shluchim, isn't it? Yeah.

1:01:29 Speaker 3 What's the Shluchim, the difference between the Shluchim of the Frieda Keraba and the Shluchim of the Rebbe? So one idea was that the Shluchim of the Frieda Keraba was Pashut, Mesirut Nefesh, Mamash, people were ready to die. Um, on the other hand, though, the Shlichim nothing were like you had a mission, and then the mission was over.

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:44 Speaker 3 You could finish, you could finish your Shlichim. So it's such a concept. I mean, that's what I get out.

1:01:46 Speaker 2 Like a Chadar, like-

1:01:47 Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly.

1:01:48 Speaker 2 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:48 Speaker 3 The mission you went... With our Rebbe, it's not Mesirut Nefesh at, you know. I mean, there was a lot of Mesirut Nefesh, especially now. I'm saying, as we remember, in the past twenty years, food can get shipped almost anywhere and, you know, in many, many ways. Again-

1:02:01 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:01 Speaker 3 ... I think the Ruchnius is a good challenge of being a Shlicha because it's much harder. In many ways, the Gashmius take how-- in many ways has become a bit easier.

1:02:08 Speaker 2 Sure

1:02:08 Speaker 3 And, you know, a lot of people, shluchim, which live in small cities, it's, it's more reasonable cost of living. There's actually ways that they can-- A-a-a-and he was saying, and again, I don't know the source, but he's saying, "And you know, it seemed that the Rebbe would be happy that you'd have a nice house and be comfortable and everything you need, but your whole life is shluchus."

1:02:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:23 Speaker 3 You don't-- You have these ideas, you go there, and it's your whole life, it's everything. And that really is what a lot of the switch was, is that, and again, this idea always existed, but in early generations, it was much more like you step out, and then you step back. But if you go-- And, and, and but because you're stepping out, it could be until the end. The idea of bitachtonim now is in a way whereby it's much more total. And if you learn, again, I, I, I, Tof Shin Nun on the other base, you learn the sichos over there, and one which stands out is which is Shon Tof Shin Nun. I think it's which Shon Tof Shin Nun. Where, you know, there's a whole biur regarding simato fil astikhana sicha. But the Rebbe goes a step further how the reason why we're asking for gashmius is not because, oh, I need gash to serve Hashem, but, like, there is a kavanah-

1:03:02 Speaker 2 Ah.

1:03:03 Speaker 3 -in that. And now-- And, and, you know, let me just also expand it. Based on Tanya and j-- You know, one of the things I've seen very, very clearly is that, you know, according to other philosophies, you know, the Rambam and the Chinuch, which are very ruchnistik, and the whole goal is ruhnius. Like, we wonder why is it that the Eibishter made that people need to be involved in working majority of their day, and there's such an important need for food. So simply, it seems like, what are they? Like you said, they're baggage.

1:03:28 Speaker 2 Exactly.

1:03:28 Speaker 3 There are things out here, and it's to test your strength. And these are very true points. Now, the kesuf, whatever it is, it tests your strength, and you overpower. But you learn Tanya, and I'm telling you, especially Lamed Zion.

1:03:38 Speaker 2 Wait a second. And, and even in Tanya, in the beginning of Tanya, like the, the-

1:03:41 Speaker 3 You could.

1:03:42 Speaker 2 -lamo ashashem kocha.

1:03:43 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:03:43 Speaker 2 Right? And then, and the skafya.

1:03:45 Speaker 3 Right.

1:03:46 Speaker 2 And, and kol dechiye dechiye tzemachna.

1:03:48 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah, exactly.

1:03:48 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:03:48 Speaker 3 When you go to the end-

1:03:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:49 Speaker 3 -you go to Lamed Zion.

1:03:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:50 Speaker 3 It's such a po-- I think a lot of people miss this even. The biur is so powerful. The biur is the reason why we need to eat so much food, and we need to work so much is because we are directors of energy, and we are taking energy from the world, and we are channeling it to the Eibishter. And you know, the reason why things zisha asher, asher is because you're wasting energy. Your, your, your job is to take energy and bring everything to the Eibishter. When you're going and you're doing something which is asher, you're taking the energy like earlier in Tanya, you're bringing it down. But we are like tr-- we are like traffic controllers of energy. And the fact that we need to eat is not just humans are frail, and we need to eat. It's we want to be able to go and, you know, and when we buy, you know, take a coffee bean from Ethiop- Ethiopia, and we are drinking it, and then we're learning Torah afterwards. But, like, there's like we are actually taking energy, netzutzt, you push chayas, and we are bringing it to G-d. And if you wanna, like, you can create this, my visual metaphor that you've got this whole, you know, map of the world and this heat map of, like, all the places, and especially now with shluchim all over the world.

1:04:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:04:51 Speaker 3 We are, we are-- And part of the power of, like, Jewish people becoming so geographic is we are schlepping chayas from all over the world and bringing it in. It's not baggage. The fact that we need to-- 'cause sleep is the hardest one, which I, again, I don't know exactly. Even that there's a way, but it's a little bit more abstract for sure.

1:05:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:04 Speaker 3 But when we need to eat, and we need to go and work, and we need to go and buy, and this and that, it's not just a distraction. It's all-

1:05:11 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:05:12 Speaker 3 -this part of bringing everything to the Eibishter. And I think in our own internal world, that too, it's all this big, important mission of bringing everything to the Eibishter. And, you know, and as we come more, and you learn the sichos of the Yeftecht-- of, of these years. And the Rebbe knows the famous sicha about the Rebbe regarding Ashira. So some things you see the direction is very, very much coming, going the direction, which is bringing everything up.

1:05:33 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:05:33 Speaker 3 Becoming all in. And, um, and, and, and I think therefore in our own internal world, it's very, very clear in Tanya-

1:05:40 Speaker 2 Oh, right.

1:05:40 Speaker 3 -and I'm telling you Lamed Zion that, you know, if you understand, pashat the question, I'm gonna tell you. You know, again, I'm trying to excuse. The question is like, uh, what's Lashon legal or rik? Why is he, like, working so hard?

1:05:52 Speaker 2 Chasam.

1:05:52 Speaker 3 And the answer is chasam. And what the question is, chasam. The question is, one second, didn't we answer already? But the nachshua.

1:05:58 Speaker 2 Exactly.

1:05:59 Speaker 3 And the question, which the way it's explained, I think the Rebbe explains it, is that if indeed it was a battle, Nefesh Elokis, Nefesh HaChamas, then the way it should be is that when the Nefesh Elokis is miskaber, Nefesh HaChamas drops off, and Nefesh Elokis is running. The word there is why is it mislabesh in the Nefesh HaChamas? Why is it even when my Nefesh Elokis is motivated to do the right thing, it still works through the means of the Nefesh HaChamas? Still works through the means. And like back to our mashal, which means-- And, and when it works through the means of Nefesh HaChamas, it loses its pure sense of elation and purity. Now it's my struggle. Bizmanach. I'm like, "I wanna do the right thing for the Eibishter. I'm not gonna do it. And if I, and if I wanna actually do it, it's gonna have to have some, some of me mixed in." It's like, why? Why does the reality with mislabesh is the question. Why is it that even after I win, because the Nefesh Elokis inside Nefesh HaChamas is gonna be working through the f- through the structure of Nefesh HaChamas. Why?

1:06:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:06:48 Speaker 3 Why couldn't it just leave? Why couldn't it just-- That's the question. And what is the biur? The biur is Yefteachtainim. And, and ironically, a lot of the messages of Yefteachtainim are regarding a person's internal world. I remember Rabbi Silverberg in Chicago, uh, against in there. We were learning Tanya, and he says, "Where does it say v'zeh kol ha'adam v'saach et pi yosef?" Which one, one of the Yod Beis pesukim, V'kach now. Where it said regarding when a person in his moyach understands the Eibishter. It's in the person's internal, it's inside their body.

1:07:14 Speaker 2 Mona, yeah.

1:07:15 Speaker 3 It's a crazy concept to think that a, a, and a huge part of Yefteachtainim is that. So besides it being very, you know, like, in other words, it all kind of leads together. We have to be really practical. We are forced to be really practical. This is our reality that we have to come to terms with. A-and it's not just like, you know, in the world's like, you know, the reality is you're gonna have to man up and become a man and get married and, you know, and get a job, and you're gonna have to work hard. Like, this is just the reality, and you just have to kind of get to terms with the reality.

1:07:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:07:47 Speaker 3 It's like, no, the Eibishter runs this world. The Eibishter made everything precise. This reality that we have to get to terms with is for a reason. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a reason, and there's a reason why we have to engage in the world. And it's not just by chance, right? And this is why we need to go and talk how, you know, when, like, the people which are going to go and, you know, like, especially now, there's, like, a very big koch ba'shluchim, baruch Hashem. There's also the people which have to go, and it's very, very hard. They have to partially be in the world. I mean, in that way, be chassidish Yidden. It's a very, very challenging thing. But there's a reason why you're there, and you are, you are, you are vital. You are ex-- You, you-- In s-- In many ways, you might be, but also, but y-y-in your own world, you're bringing it across a really, really big place, and you're working, doing everything. You know, with Yerushalayim, there's a reason. It's not just like g-get to terms. And also in our own internal world, like come to terms with the reality of Nefesh HaChaim. There's a reason why. And again, this is not so much regarding the yetzer hara aspect of it.

1:08:36 Speaker 2 Right. That's a different-

1:08:36 Speaker 3 But I'm talking more now Nefesh HaChaim.

1:08:37 Speaker 2 Right, exactly. So, so, so tie that back. So to the avodah sh'el olam in-- within the person and go back to being realistic. So in other words, the same way that we're understanding this on a broader level about d-- like taking energy from the different places, that it's for an actual kavana.

1:08:53 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:08:53 Speaker 2 So how would that work? You, and you started touching on it internally. I-- What, what-- How can you spell that out? About like what is the, the... When I deal with my Nefesh HaChaim, and I'm not, um, thinking about it as baggage, I'm thinking about it as, as, as taking-

1:09:09 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:09:09 Speaker 2 As, as, uh, harvesting energy-

1:09:11 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:11 Speaker 2 -for Hashem. What would that, what would that mean in a, in a more internal level?

1:09:16 Speaker 3 So if I understand you, the, the Nefesh HaChaim, right, amongst ruchnius is the most related to physical, right? The Nefesh HaChaim is like-

1:09:26 Speaker 2 Behema.

1:09:26 Speaker 3 -in deep harmony with, with, with the body.

1:09:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:28 Speaker 3 It's the Nefesh of the body. It's the b-b-behema.

1:09:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:09:31 Speaker 3 And, um, because what we're trying to do, and the reason we came into a guf in Nefesh HaChaim is to uplift. So, so I mean, even just for a professor, the way Tana says it is Pashtem said physically, right? Any, any ma'asa is gonna have to physically happen through your body. But on a more internal and psychological level is, you know, we need to develop a kashmak. I remember I heard a kashmak of a-- from, from, um, Rabbi Levitansky, you know, in, in L.A., alav ha-shalom. At one point, he was delivering, and he was saying, "Avada, Avada, if you've got Kabbalah of Earl and you have it, it carries you through everything." He says, "But what if you're Levitansky?" You've got no shayaich with Kabbalah, so he said. He said, "Then you have to develop a kashmak."

1:10:07 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:10:08 Speaker 3 You have to develop a kashmak. And what is kashmak? It means a Nefesh HaChaim Nefesh HaChaim.

1:10:11 Speaker 2 Sure, Nefesh HaChaim. Yeah. The kashmak that we feel-

1:10:15 Speaker 3 So in the motivation too-

1:10:15 Speaker 2 -that we experience.

1:10:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. In the motivation too, we need to go and strategize. And you know what? In the reality, there's a thing, "Lo yamim adon b'makom sh'e li b'chafetz." There's a lot of strategizing. And I would say a part of knowing your Nefesh HaChaim is, and that in Sichah says you just need to learn the Talmud.

1:10:33 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:33 Speaker 3 Or even you as a teacher, of the teacher to know what works for you and motivates you. We have to come to terms with this reality which is perfect and made that way for a reason, to uplift every single part of us and every single part of others. And therefore, like the, the, the mechanism is what's gonna motivate is also not by chance because that also... In other words, just like physically we're gonna do it through our guf and Nefesh HaChaim. Also the motivation which is going to actually make us get there is also gonna be Nefesh HaChaim. And with the mashal of the Chassidim and the animal, the animal needs hay, but for a lot of Nefesh HaChaims, might not be so simple what the hay of our Nefesh HaChaim is, and we've got to go and strategize and, you know, and sit and talk, you know. And I, I would argue sometimes even that, you know, there's ways of like, you know, when dealing with like building people up, sometimes you might even need to build people up with things which are not directly inside the obvious place of kedusha. When you go and develop someone's talent in music and art, and you see the stories of the Rebbe regarding spiritual artists, right? You develop people's talents in these kind of things, and these are things that are actually good. And again, the Eibishter made them talented in art. Nefesh HaChaim is precise for a reason. Made them talented in music. If we

1:11:43 Speaker 3 just go and ignore that, and there are-- I've read in places in other communities, they will shun people for a good-- shun that. It's a distraction.

1:11:49 Speaker 2 Mm. Right.

1:11:50 Speaker 3 It's a distraction from your avoda. And we would go and say, "The Eibishter did that for a reason." Now, again, be very careful. You don't limit like that. Nefesh HaChaim is right next to the Yetzer Hara.

1:12:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:01 Speaker 3 The Yetzer Hara is the middos, and it can pull in. You gotta be very, very careful, very cautious. But we-- Like, I would say building people up means building them up where the Nefesh HaChaim is. And when, like, when I'm dealing with bachurim or with friends and people, it's all about finding the spark. And there is a spark. And the hardest thing is when you deal with bachurim which are shushah, techa, down. They don't know what their own spark is, and that's really difficult. But I want to find a spark like anything. You find something, go, "They're alive." And when-- A-a-and then you as a role model with your Nefesh HaChaim, or internally, I am all about the Eibishter, but then I'm like a musician. You, you are able to fuse them.

1:12:34 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:12:35 Speaker 3 And, um, that's really, you know, it's regarding motivation. It's regarding a person's talents, a personality. We all, tachlis, we go out and we use our personality to go to the world. And you're a bachurim, go on using your talents. I'm using my talents. We're trying to go and use our talents for, you know, what, what the, what, what... That's using Nefesh HaChaim. It's been taught by our talents. You-- And in fact, Nefesh HaChaim is this word which... That's why actually when I was thinking, I come walking in, I'm like, for me, the topic where my heart is, is Nefesh HaChaim. And people might say, "What? Nefesh HaChaim? That's a funny topic." But I actually really think that it's, it's fundamental. And for me, in my own internal world, it's been very, very fundamental because when I view in its space and I'm learning to allow me to do things in my way which works with Nefesh HaChaim. Again, I say my way, I don't mean it in a chas veshalom say. I mean to, to, to, to, to-- The Chassidim are going to the Rebbe, but I'm trying to find that right horse to pull the wagon, right? So my own internal world as a mechanch, not looking at other people's Nefesh HaChaim. It's like the horse which works for his wagon won't work for my wagon. You know, it's different moods, different things. For me personally, it's helped a lot, and I try this, you know, I, I, I try this, you know, with,

1:13:37 Speaker 3 with everyone I work with. And, um, it's just it might seem really basic, but making people feel good about who they are and about their talents, and making people feel that when they get involved in Torah, they're-- they are found there and they are alive, and that they have a space and a place within Yiddishkeit. It's not just the Nefesh HaChaim, but the Nefesh HaChaim. And that, you know, them with their talents, if you-- they can come into the sphere of shlichus, of hafot, or whatever it is, and people desperately want you. They like you because of who you are. I have a lot of bachurim in my class, and it's painful for me to say, who-- good boys, and they're gonna work their hardest to learn, and they'll maybe get a seventy on their test and feel good about that. And like, the question, is this guy in yeshiva? He's Nefesh HaChaim bachur, he's learning Torah. But is he feeling good in yeshiva? Is he feeling like he's come-- he's showed up with who he is in yeshiva? No. But we can actually go, and, and again, it's for some reason it's like in, in like really good yeshiva worlds, it's like very, very normal to do this, but not mainstream yeshivas. But we need to try to go-

1:14:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:14:38 Speaker 3 -and help everybody find their spark. And again, some of it's more obvious, a bit less obvious to be able to be present in yeshiva, to be able to show up with the whole being and say, "Ah, me, with my individuality, I have a place here, and I'm needed." You know, when you talk about everybody being needed in, in, in, in-- everybody being needed in this world, in a certain way, that talks a lot to Nefesh HaChaim. Now, clearly, Nefesh HaChaim is much harder. What does that, what does that mean? I don't know.

1:15:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:03 Speaker 3 But there probably is such an idea too. But there's also about, you know, your neshamah came down into a guf, into your guf, not somebody else's guf. Your mission, who you're here for. If we can just do this, and with everybody, people in shul we go to, or see a friend in shul, help everybody find their spark. Let everybody go to see, especially if you are someone who represents Torah, that you like them for who they are, for their talents, and you look up to them, and you respect them for their expertise, and you build them and build them up. Uh, the, it slowly, slowly we can, you know, our Nefesh Hamis, Nefesh Eloka, and we can just make them kind of create some kind of fusion and work in harmony and synergy. And that, uh, that, that's divinely determined to me. When Mashiach comes, what's the world gonna be? What's Mashiach gonna be? It's a goyla with an alef inside. This is all, you know? Right. And it's the same world, same-- and we've just got the Ibister in that, and that's just a, a brilliant and beautiful place to be. Amen. Beautiful. I, I, by the way, I can tell you're a good, uh, teacher, a good sharer. Not that you need my haskomah, because you, I think, brilliantly encapsulated everything we were talking about in the last four minutes. Mm. I was, like, very focused on what we were saying in the last few minutes, and then, like, you brought everything together

1:16:05 Speaker 3 between the, the being realistic between the two identities, between, um, making people feel-- being felt and heard, and that the Nefesh Hamis is the talents that are showing up and experiencing life in the real way, and therefore that that's what needs to be on board. That was, uh- That is- ... very geshmak, afarbrengen. This is my heart. Thank you very much. Thank you for- Good. I appreciate the opportunity ... for coming and sharing, and, uh, especially in the busy weekend, and especially our Shabbos. For sure. So I really appreciate that. My baruch. And, uh, continue that torah. We'll think to ourselves afterwards how to- Yeah ... make this be a, have a, have a, a bottom-- a difference in our bottom line- Yeah, exactly ... when we go back to our worlds. That's the das. That's the, that's the work in the trenches. Yep. Thank you.