יסודות החסידות – הרב הרצל פווזנר

00:00 Speaker 1 But what does Chassidus say about Atzilus? Oh, all of that, but Chassidus also tells us what it feels like. Chassidus also tells us that Atzilus is Ein Od Milado, a reality where there isn't anything else besides Hashem. You know when you're at a good toich hamdikeh farbrengen and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs: Conversations in Chassidus, a podcast farbrengen where we have real conversations about real Chassidus. I'm sitting here with Reb Herzl Pazner, mashpia in Morristown zal, and, uh, recently of, uh, more acclaimed fame. I think two things. First of all, the, uh, Basics of Chassidus book, which is, I think, a, a groundbreaking piece in literature for a, uh, for, for a Chabad bachur.

00:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

00:59 Speaker 1 This is, uh... And I wouldn't say replacing the hatamim, but like, uh, you know, the concept of, of giving somebody something to read. Doesn't have to be a, a, a freier or a fremder. Something that a bachur in, in yeshiva or out of yeshiva could, could read and, and appreciate Chassidus in a very practical way and understand the structure of Chassidus and actually, like, start realizing like maybe what's, what's going on and what, what he's learning about. That's the way I saw the book.

01:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

01:25 Speaker 1 Um, so I, I very much appreciated it, and I, I hear there's a lot of, uh, volumes coming out, so looking forward to that.

01:32 Speaker 2 Yes.

01:32 Speaker 1 Um, and then the second thing is, uh, the, the program of the 12 Psukim, which was recently launched, which also was, uh, kind of a no-brainer, but it took a lot of brains for someone to, to actually do it. So, uh, I'm looking forward to the development of that as by one of your, uh, workshops recently. But, um, this is not, as I tell people, this is not a chinuch podcast per se. It's a, it's a podcast about Chassidus. And I think, I think the best place to start is actually where we were, we were talking before as we were... as I was setting up, and I think, uh, let's, let's get the audience right into that conversation 'cause that was, that was great. That was a gishmak. So I was saying about that, uh, I see this pos- podcast a little bit like a farbrengen, and you said that, uh, no, it's a conversation. It's not a farbrengen. So I asked you what's the difference between a conversation and a farbrengen? So let's, let's pick up from there.

02:20 Speaker 2 Okay. So, um, yes, Baruch Hashem.

02:23 Speaker 1 Yes.

02:23 Speaker 2 It's, uh... Grateful for you coming out here. Um, so what is a conversation? What's a farbrengen? So, uh, so my hesitation around the word farbrengen is that a farbrengen in a certain sense is a sacred space. It's a place with a very, very direct focus. It's a place that's not, um, let's experiment and find out, in a certain sense. The Friediker Rebbe describes that the Chassidim who would have a specific target, hechlotah, or something that they, they knew they need to take upon themself. But in order to get themselves committed to it, they knew, let me sit down for a farbrengen, and a farbrengen was in a certain... and a farbrengen is a certain sense the way to achieve that commitment in a, in a deep and personal and committed way. So that's why a farbrengen in a certain sense is it's almost like davening. Where davening, you know the job of davening is to make me feel connected to Hashem. So here I am, now I'm gonna daven. Similarly, Chassid-- a farbrengen has a very direct target. I want to enhance my, my avodas Hashem, my connection to Hashem. I'm gonna sit down and have a farbrengen, and I know that's the goal of the farbrengen is to get there. Um, but davening and a farbrengen are just two of the modes of avoda of Chassidus. Sometimes people don't realize, but learning Chassidus is a great mode of avoda of Chassidus. In other words, right, a person will say, "Yeah, well, Chassidus you have

04:00 Speaker 2 to study, and then the avoda is the davening." Well, actually, if you think about it, one of the chiddushim of Chassidus Chabad is that we should be learning Chassidus as a way to impact our avodas Hashem, to shape our avodas Hashem. So the study of Chassidus and the processing of the Chassidus that we're learning and even just sitting and talking about it is very, very important for us to deepen our appreciation for what we're learning, and that itself is going to form our worldview and our s- our concept of, of life, of self, of, uh, our, our connection to Hashem, and all of that, that Chassidus illuminates, and that's really, really powerful and really, really special. So it's not... Calling it a conversation I don't feel is degrading in a certain sense-

04:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well-

04:43 Speaker 2 ... is, um, is actually y- more targeted to the purpose.

04:48 Speaker 1 Wow. Okay. So the... It's fascinating that, that perspective of farbrengen. I, I see it as almost mil, me matir u'meila in the sense that, like, what you described, you said from the Friediker Rebbe that, uh, that there's a goal, and now we're, we're gonna... W- we have already the goal, and now we're trying to make that goal happen, and obviously, that goal would probably be an avoda. The way I was thinking of farbrengen and why, and why I call this a farbrengen, I'm not trying to, like, prove a point here- ... but this is just... I think it's actually, it opens up a certain idea here, is I always viewed a farbrengen as- A, a, a experience of das, which means, and that's why I'm saying a little bit, m'maila l'mata, in the sense that we're starting off with an idea, something that we learned in Chassidus, and something that, you know, that we've, uh, we've been thinking about in an intellectual way. And I, I also, I'm, I'm, I teach in yeshiva. I teach bachurim, so we're learning Chassidus, and then we farbreng, right? Uh, ev- every now and then.

05:43 Speaker 2 Okay. Yes.

05:43 Speaker 1 So, so we ha-- we're, we're speaking about, let's say, actually, point one of the sugyas I teach is das. So we're learning about das, and I always use that as an example. We're, we're, we're learning about das. It's not das. We're learning about das. It's the bina, and happens to be chacham bina, and it happens to be that the topic is das.

05:58 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:58 Speaker 1 But then, and then we come-- or whatever. It could be any topic. It could be talking about the chvesos, hatsilos, whatever. And then we come to farbrengen, and we're like, "Okay, one second. Let's, let's, let's now das this. Let's, let's, let's break this down. Let's dis-"

06:09 Speaker 2 Let's process and integrate.

06:10 Speaker 1 Exactly. Let's process and integrate this con-- this intellectual concept in an emotio-- well, in what should lead to an emotional way.

06:15 Speaker 2 Sure.

06:16 Speaker 1 And of course, it's, uh, focused on avoda, but in, in my, in my, like, process of that, the avoda is at the end. We're like, that's why I use m'maila l'mata to start off with the idea, the chacham bina, and then end with the das. And in that sense, that's what, um... And, and, and I'm not saying farbrengen is this or that. May-may-maybe it's both, and, uh, the fact that you were saying, uh, mokar, you know, something from the Filipa, obviously gives that, uh, gives that importance. But then there's another, um, th-- and, and this is the w- very much what I had in mind with this podcast, with this, with this, I guess you'd wanna say now conversation, is there's, uh, we t- we talk about a lot of ideas in Chassidus. We learn about a lot of ideas in Chassidus.

06:50 Speaker 2 Learn about a lot of ideas, yeah.

06:52 Speaker 1 And I, I, I always say this, that we're not Chassid Chab, we're Chassid Chabad. You know, they're, they're, like... And, and, and das is the hardest part. I, I, I think it's in the, the Hem Shacha Vani Nasati in Etar where the Rab Shah talks about das. Maybe it's somewhere else. Rab Shah has a ispraach very clearly that a teacher cannot teach das.

07:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:10 Speaker 1 He can teach chacham bina. It's there? That's, it's in Etar? Yeah.

07:13 Speaker 2 I believe so.

07:13 Speaker 1 That, uh, you c- you can't teach das. You need to-- das needs to be on the, on the student's or whatever, the person's own, uh, experience and own, uh, process of integrating and connecting hakara, argasha, skashas, et cetera, all the ex- different expressions of das.

07:26 Speaker 2 It says, "In ani eleh bedas, in asher eleh bedas," right? Because chachma and bina, you are yet to acquire it as your own. Ani and asher are us- usually about possessions. If you have a lot of possessions, you're an asher. You have few possessions, you're an ani. So in ani eleh bedas, because when it comes to das, that's going to be the key factor. Do you own it? Do you-- have you acquired it as your own? When you understand something, you're processing an idea. If you're just processing the idea element of it, the, the intellectual element of it, you're just engaging with the idea, but the, the idea never becomes purchased by you.

08:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

08:02 Speaker 2 Never becomes acquired as yours, and das does. That, there's, uh, das is the purchase.

08:08 Speaker 1 Right.

08:08 Speaker 2 There is, is the acquisition.

08:09 Speaker 1 Right. So I, I, a lot of, a lot of conversations I have end up being with people who are mashpia in a yeshiva, and, and I, and I always think about it as, um, no, this is not a chinuch podcast. I'm not-- I don't wanna talk about, like, oh, how do you make it practical for the bachurim, et cetera, which, which deserves its own talk and deserves its own thought process. But I, uh, the reason, two things. Number one is that obviously someone who his job, literally his bread and butter, is to, is to teach Chassidus. I- if he's doing a good job at it, then, then it means that he's, that he's living with the concepts of Chassidus, marinating in them, and then being able to express them in, in meaningful ways. But I think there's another, there's another m- uh, quality that I see in talking to people who teach bachurim, 'cause we could use the concept of teaching bachurim as, like, a mashal for talking to ourselves. We wanna give over the, the concept to a bachur. We're teaching the concept of Chassidus, and we wanna, we wanna make it real for the bachurim. We wanna make it relevant for the bachurim. We wanna make the bachurim be able to apply to their lives. We wanna help them grow in their avodas Hashem. And usually, the job of mashpia is not just to teach Chassidus, but it's also to help the bachurim in... It's not in magid shiur in Chassidus, it's to

09:10 Speaker 1 help the bachurim in their, in their life and as a Chassid. So a lot of times we could-- It's very easy to, yeah, m- m'riat v'ginian u'mein t- u'mein tachalin, right? We could talk about how we, how we, uh, give over this experience for bachurim, and that's actually... And then we could tie it back and talk about how, how we could and should be doing it for ourselves as well. This is not limited to someone who's teaching other bachurim. Any Chassid who's learning Chassidus for themselves should be able to, should, should be able to, to hold themselves to, uh, to the task of, of getting that chacham bina and das. In other words, of, you know, a, a regular guy who's sitting down learning a Maimar Shabbos morning, Thursday night, whatever it is, right? There needs to be that part of the experience of, of making it real, making it relevant. And I think one of the ways is, um, is when we take topics of Chassidus, and, and I think that's also a big goal in your, in your, in your books, um, from what I understand. To take t- different topics of Chassidus, not just the general topic of Chassidus, but topics within Chassidus that are central, that are bedrock, that keep on coming up over and over and over, and really processing what they mean. And it's not the Vart. I'm not talking about... Well, first of all, obviously, there is the job of translating it into English. But then it's also...

10:18 Speaker 1 I'm, I don't, I don't mean right away of l- of applying it to mental health and psychology and all that. That's, that's a different, that's a whole different, uh, thing. I'm not talking about that. Talking about that, that what, what do these, what do these concepts mean? Why are they important in avodas Hashem? And not only why are they important in avodas Hashem, because they're also important in and of themselves. They're important in hatsilos. But, but to-- And a j-- and part of the m- mitzvah of learning Chassidus is to learn about the das okei avicha. But why are they important in Chassidus? In other words, why are these so important? So, so, uh, so this is, uh, this is a big part, I think, of, of what I would love to hear from you, is, uh, you know, let's say, let's say one of these ideas, one of these topics of, um, of, of Chassidus. And, and what's the, what's the process of breaking it down? What's the process of making it real and making it relevant?

11:05 Speaker 2 Okay. So wow, that's a lot.

11:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:07 Speaker 2 Um, but just to get started, so what is Chassidus? If you want, you can take any Maimar, and you could look at any Maimar and notice three themes within the Maimar. Um, I've called it before, you have the Kabbalah of Chassidus, you have the Chakira of Chassidus, and you have the Chassidus of Chassidus. So Kabbalah details, maps out what's going on in those . What's going on in those higher worlds? What's spirituality about? And it just gives you information. If you're just understanding the information that is told to you in the context of and so on and so forth, and yes, it's a mitzvah, you do say there's it's a-- right? It's-

11:53 Speaker 1 Today's Tanya

11:53 Speaker 2 ... right. It's, it's, it's a great and lofty mitzvah, right? But you're not, um, y- so that's Kabbalah. You're not studying Kabbalah out, out of a Kabbalistic book. You're learning it out of a-- is a-- you're, you're, you're studying it in the language of Chassidus, but essentially you're doing the same thing. You are being a mekubal. You're learning what's going on up there. The element of hakira is that there's an element of philosophy, theology, of understanding why the Abster does what he does, or how does he function, how does he work? W-w-what is the way he interacts with us in a way that's compatible with iqur emunah? So I'm learning a maimar and it talks about bracha and tefillah and how it all works, and I wanna know, well, you know, how do we influence Hashem, and how is that not astera to the fact that Hashem is already perfect, and so on and so forth. And all these questions of theology, right, is of chochmah l'kis, right, of why this works the way it works, Chassidus answers. But that's not the heart of what Chassidus is. The heart of what Chassidus is, what you call it, the Chassidus of Chassidus, is not just the raw information, not how it suddenly answers the questions, how it's compatible with iqur emunah, but it will tell me how this feels like, right? If you think in the context of losid lavie, how are we going to experience this concept? What is it gonna feel like? And once

13:20 Speaker 2 you talk about what it feels like, then even if I can't yet experience it, but I, I get into what is it going to feel like, then it has a direct impact on my current life. Then it has a direct i-impact to how am I living right now. Because I'm thinking about what is the... I, I'm thinking beyond the terminology and the, the structure of the ideas, and I'm getting to the heart of what it truly is. So just to give an, uh, s-- give one example. What is atzilus? So the Mekubal will say, "Well, atzilus is a structure of tztufitas" and so on and so forth, and y- this is the information, right? A choicher will say, "Well, this is exactly how we solve some key questions about how an infinite God deals with a finite existence." The answer is atzilus. Okay. But what does Chassidus say about atzilus? Oh, all of that, but Chassidus also tells us what it feels like. Chassidus also tells us that atzilus is ein od milado, a reality where there's-- isn't anything else besides Hashem. So while it's fascinating, potentially, to learn about the Kabbalah of it, the hakira of it, how it solves all the questions, and how it's amazing, and now I understand how close, right? Understanding and appreciating the ein od milado, the reality of atzilus in a place where existence without Hashem, right, isn't possible, and w-- s-- uh, and your whole existence is, so to say, within that makor, w-within that source, where

14:56 Speaker 2 there's nothing with-without Him, right? That is the concept that has a real impact on a person's meiseh, a person's reality and a person's life. It's like, wow, I just learnt about a reality very different where I don't feel that, and I just learnt about it, and I spent some time thinking about it. And now if I go ahead and talk about it and I process it, I will be integrating a lickusen into my life in a very real way because I kind of know what it feels like. I'm not feeling it, but I know what it feels like. I've learnt about it, so now that will have, uh, s-- that will have an impact.

15:34 Speaker 1 Wow. That's, uh, that's really eye-opening. The question is when you're learning, um, s-- because like you said before, there's, you know, Chassidus will also talk about the hakira and the, and the Kabbalah part of that topic, for sure.

15:49 Speaker 2 And, and it's not fractured. It's not, oh, okay, here is this part and here is that part. It's talking in the same flow of ideas. It's talking-- It's, it's, it's going through it all. But when we process the maimar, when we process it and when we think about it, we have to think beyond the information that was detailed in, in, in conceptual format and think, so what does that feel like?

16:12 Speaker 1 Right.

16:12 Speaker 2 What does that look like? W-what is that about? Um, so yeah.

16:17 Speaker 1 So the question is when-- because, you know, and, uh, obviously every bachur knows, like, there's the avoda mamarim and the haskala mamarim and, uh, you know, certain hem shechem that might be focused more on avoda and, and versus haskala. So when you're talking about an avoda maimar, the, the maimar really, uh, guides you through it and, and, and it will say, let's say, those exact oisis, that atzilus is etzliv hasomoch, and atzilus is a experience of Hashem, and, and, and, you know, like you said before, ein od milado, and, uh, and, and you-- and it will, it will g-- it will spoon-feed you the thoughts and the feelings that you should be trying to get to. And obviously, you need to do it by yourself. It's not gonna work if you just read the maimar, for sure. But then the question becomes when you're learning a maimar, uh, or a hem she, whatever, of haskala, and there the oisis are, are deep into the hakira and deep into the Kabbalah. Like you said-- And yes, absolutely, those things that you were talking about before, the, the, the Kabbalah of atzilus and definitely the hakira of atzilus, right? This is, this is, uh, samech mem. This is like the, the-- there will be full mamarim, pages and pages, tens of pages, just in the hakira, just in the, in the very complex and very, very abstract, completely abstract part of it. So, uh, e-everyone recognizes, I think, that there's the necessity to bring it down into

17:30 Speaker 1 the avoda Um, and the necessity to spell that out in Avodah. So the question is, how do you balance that? Because, in other words, when you're learning a Maimer of Avodah, there's no balance. It's beautiful. It's you're focusing on Avodah. When you're learning Maimer of Chakira, no one will tell you that when you're learning a Maimer of Avodah, you have to make sure to inject some Chakira. You have to make sure to, to-- that you're not losing the focus of the Chakira, right?

17:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

17:53 Speaker 1 But, but vice versa, when you're learning a Maimer of the, of the Chakira, how do you balance the... You know, let's, let's say you're learning some Achvav. You're spend- you're spending a day on, on, on a few lines maybe, maybe on a page. H- Should you be injecting the Avodah every day, every Shir, every Maimer? A-and again, I'm not only talking about as a Magid Shir to Bachar. I'm talking about even for yourself.

18:11 Speaker 2 Okay, so obviously this is a very, very, um, good question. Um, the basic answer is that when you learn Chsidus, you're like putting together a puzzle, where Chsidus is not organized by topic. It's not organized by level of depth, right? It's organized mostly by date of when the Maimer were said by the Rabbeim. That's, right?

18:37 Speaker 1 Right.

18:37 Speaker 2 And so it's organized mostly in chronological order, if not in, right, maybe by the Parshah, but it's not organized by conceptual-- It's, it's not built as a c- a curriculum of how, here's how you're gonna master it.

18:51 Speaker 1 Right.

18:52 Speaker 2 So you-- And I think we could all reflect at times when we were young and kind of realized that, oh, I was trying to push and understand, understand, understand, and I needed to realize that, no, this concept I won't understand right now, I'm going to have to learn more about it. Because right here, locally, it's not discussed. I'm gonna have to learn more about it. So just like when you're doing a jigsaw puzzle, and you have many, many, many pieces, you start laying pieces out of the pu- out, and you can't fit-- you can't know where to put in each piece right now, but you start separating and start putting things where they belong, so to say. You start sorting them. "Oh, this has a piece of cloud. It's probably in the sky. I'll put it towards the top of the puzzle." Right? And, and you're just starting to... When you start to learn Chsidus and you advance in your study of Chsidus, you're constantly putting together a puzzle of what I've learned here and the context I have around it from what I've previously learned. And in order to process Chsidus, we need to have some of that puzzle, where yes, I know more, and I-- because I've learned that, those other things, that is what allows me to really connect to what I'm learning here also. Where not that I necessarily compare and say, "Oh yeah, same shot here and there," which not necessarily is correct. There's many, many explanations. There's, there's a

20:12 Speaker 2 lot of diversity in Chsidus. But at the same time, you're gonna have a lot of, um, cohesive, um, framework, where it doesn't need to talk about what Ir Anseif looks like every single time it talks about Ir Anseif for you to know what it is, because c-- for you to-- when you're learning it, you need to be able to translate it in your own head of what it means in simple words, right? And those words you've hopefully gained in other places, and not every concept you have that, but I guess it depends how advanced you are in Chsidus. But in, in-- regardless, what should be happening eventually is that there shouldn't be a, a Maimer that's just called an Avodah Maimer. Uh, s-sorry, that just called a Hascalah Maimer.

20:57 Speaker 1 Right.

20:57 Speaker 2 In other words, no impact. It should have an impact. And, you know, there's an expression of the Friedik Rebbe that there's a fart with two noshois, that Avodah is the, is, uh, is the bechein of Chsidus. In other words, the, the, uh, the takeaway message, and the-- is, uh, or, or sorry, the, it's the bechein of the Hascalah. And the other is that it's the nekudat hatamesis of the Hascalah. That means it's not just a takeaway that you take from it, but actually this is the most essential point of it.

21:32 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Allah.

21:33 Speaker 2 In other words, what defines if I learnt an idea or not, right? If I understood it, it will resonate. And if I didn't understand it, then it won't resonate. So it's not just a question of, "Yeah, I've been this so busy with Hascalah, I couldn't figure out how to bridge the gap into Avodah." But if you've really appreciated what the Maimer is saying, you'll have the Avodah. You'll have it. It will be there. It will be very, very real to life in terms of some takeaway, if you understood the context of what we're discussing. So it could be anything. It could be if you're learning about, uh, Pnim Yesaratsan and Chitzon Yesaratsan, it, it doesn't matter how abstract the conversation is. But if that doesn't have some impact, and now you should cherish a mitzvah more because a mitzvah is Pnim Yesaratsan, then what were you learning? You were learning about Pnim Yesaratsan, but you didn't have what Pnim Yesaratsan is. Because if you would, oh, you, you, you would, you would connect it in your, in your life. You, you, you would-- In other words, you can't-- When you, you reach a point when you're learning Chsidus that your life cannot remain divorced from the Maimer. It has to be integrated to the Maimer, because otherwise you're not absorbed, you're not getting into the Maimer fully. You're, you're, you're leaving yourself out of it in Chsidus.

22:51 Speaker 1 Beautiful. So, uh, would you say that in a way, before, um, a person learns a certain topic in Hascalah, delves into a certain topic in Hascalah, they need to first be anchored in what will this always look like in Avodah? In other words, like let's, let's use that example that you said, Pnim Yesaratsan, right? If I'm gonna take a deep dive into, uh, Pnim Yesaratsan and Chitzon Yesaratsan, I wanna first have that anchor that this is a discussion about, in my life, about the, the, the way I connect to mitzvahs because I appreciate the value of mitzvah, using the example you said.

23:23 Speaker 2 Okay, so s- what oftentimes happens when you're learning Chsidus, right, in the context of a Shir or, or, right, is that the Magid Shir frames the conversation.

23:36 Speaker 1 Right.

23:37 Speaker 2 He opens up the Maimer with a Hakdamah of sorts.

23:40 Speaker 1 Right.

23:41 Speaker 2 Of here is what we're going to be learning about. And usually, you need to have already learned the Maimer in order to know that. So you're relying on his knowledge and his immersion in Chsidus, in that world of Chsidus, to be able to give you that context to first talk about it outside and almost broaden the canvas of what is the discussion of it here to know where to put it. And sometimes people kind of ask, you know, "Okay, in, in, i-in today's age, there's so many learning resources, maybe I could just learn myself. What is the value of learning in a Shir? What is the value in, in, uh, even a Bachar learning with the class, if I could go and do my own Hamshach because I'm more interested in that? What, what am I gonna gain with Hadraka in study?" And the real answer is that until you're already completely immersed in the world of Chsidus, and you have already learnt this Maimer before, you won't necessarily have the framing for the Maimer. You won't necessarily have the context for the Maimer. And you might be grappling with getting through it and seeing it, and which isn't essentially a problem if you could gain it based on Hadraka that you've gotten in other instances. But really, what you're trying to, what you're trying to teach in the time in Yeshiva is that a Bachar should not only learn the structure of the Maimer or the information of the Maimer, but actually get to

25:06 Speaker 2 the soul of the Maimer, and that way they're gonna have more, uh, bandwidth to be able to learn Chsidus even on their own and be able to get tothe heart of what's being discussed and not just stay on the periphery of learning the information and trying to grasp what's its message. So easy protashir, right? Yourself, really get into it and then- Mm. Yeah, you know. But, but maybe, maybe it sounds like that if you're doing it by yourself, then you need to start with avoid the klamar, so to speak. In other words, you need to start with, um, first understanding the, let's say, the connection to Hashem that exists within Yiddishkeit, within Torat Mizvot, davening, et cetera, any, any specific topic. And then you could, uh... And obviously there would need to be hatraka for that, but... And in the olden days, when a person wants to learn Chassidus even by themselves, not in yeshiva, there was a mashpia in town, there was the, the Chassidishe Rov or, or the official mashpia, not in yeshiva, even if pre- Mm. There's the mashpia of the town who would be able to give him guidance in how to learn Chassidus, right? That's, uh, it comes across even in a lot of letters of the Rebbe from the earlier years. Ab- ab- absolutely. Yeah. So, so did that stop? Oh, no, not at all. Okay, so And, and, and I think Baruch Hashem, we live in a generation where most people go through the yeshiva experience. So

26:20 Speaker 2 even if, uh, even if they didn't necessarily sit down and learn about it in Chassidus, in, in yeshiva, but they gained enough basic appreciation of, I think this is exactly what you're talking about, the avoid of Chassidus, that now when they sit down Shabbos morning and look at the, and learn and look at the Torah, even if it happens to be more of a, a, a scholarly co- uh, discussion- Mm. -they already have the anchor, they already have the, like, this is important for my avodas Hashem in whatever specific way. They already have the context. Exactly. They have the big picture. And you're saying the context here is the avoid. Yes. So- I'm not trying to, uh, plug the basics of Chassidus, but actually the mission of- Go ahead. The mission of the basics of Chassidus is to provide the basics, is to provide the backdrop where to put all these ideas. And what's very, very interesting is that, uh, I, I quoted in the introduction to the book, but, um, there's a letter from the Rebbe to Rabbi Zevin, where the Rebbe explains the reason behind his project of Sefer HaRe'eh, the, the famed encyclopedia that, that, uh, the Rebbe was his life project. Um, and the Rebbe explains why it's important. And the Rebbe doesn't say it's there for the research of Chassidus, right? And just to, you know, show the complexity of Chassidus or the intellectual structure of Chassidus. But the Rebbe says that Likutim exist in all areas of Torah study,

27:44 Speaker 2 right? Because ideas are often scattered in diverse places. I mean, Gemara is not either organized by topic, right? So you have Likutim starting from even technically the Poskim and then moving, right, of all sorts, right? And, and, and there's so many Likutim. And the Rebbe, in every area the Rebbe mentioned there are Likutim. And in Chassidus, when it's so important to understand it in a way that will even influence the Nefesh HaChaim, we're lacking the benefit of a Likutim. We're ve- as, of a, as, of a, uh, of, of something that's gonna bring everything together to see the whole picture. So in other words, the Rebbe said the importance of having such a work is in order for us to have the context to apply it, because we're trying to influence even the Sefer of the Nefesh HaChaim. We're trying to really understand this, and you can't do that fully when you're just, um, you know, going with one path of light, with one, o- one little beacon in one ma'amar. You need to see more of the picture. And yes, eventually you can amass that information and think about it and try to give it context and try to contextualize that. But, um, in a certain sense, to put that on paper was the mission of the basics of Chassidus project, to, to, to put things out there that, yes, if you read these chapters, if you read these pages, you'll, you'll, you read Achdas Hashem, from now on you'll have the context of

29:14 Speaker 2 Achdas Hashem, right? You'll have-- It won't say everything that possibly says in Chassidus about Achdas Hashem, but that isn't the mission. Right. The mission is to give you the framework where to put these ideas. You'll learn sixty pages about Din V'davar, it doesn't, it's not exhaustive. It can't include everything about Din V'davar. Right. But it will give you the building blocks, the structure to have the basics, so then you can move on to, um, every ma'amar and really seeing the concept and it's seeing how it comes to light, life and brings everything together. So going back to the, you said about the, the Hamoch Chassidus, the Chaker Chassidus and the Chassidus of Chassidus. So what, what it sounds like, and now using the words basics of Chassidus, it sounds like the Chassidus is the Das. In other words, the, the-- When, when you're saying the Chassidus of Chassidus, what you're saying is the way it's meaningful for you, the way it relates to your life and your avodas Hashem. Yes, but it's also the, the ultimate truth of what the Rebbeim were trying to convey. Sure. Yeah. It's not just... Right? There, there's, there's sometimes we have a takeaway from Chassidus that will maybe apply. It's a lesson from the mashal where, um, for, for... Right? In, in other words, the ma'amar just happens to reveal something about human psychology, and it's like, "Yay, I have a life tool now from the ma'amar." Right. But the ma'amar wasn't talking about that in particular. Like, I'll,

30:42 Speaker 2 I'll just, I'll just give you an, uh, an example. Um, in the Chason ma'amar, in L'Chododi, it talks about very briefly the relationship of siblings. Yeah. Ach Adam. Right? It's-- Yeah. It talks about the relationship of siblings. So most people when they learn the ma'amar don't really think about it. But if somebody would have to-- would ask me the question of, okay, what is I'm, you know, I'm trying to figure out how siblings should get along or right? Or, or, or whatever the, the question, right? And I want some context from Chassidus, right? So one of the sources would potentially be that, is giving me context about the sibling relationship. Now, that's not exactly the message of the Maamar. That's not the topic of the Maamar. And that would be wrong to say the das of the Maamar is to tell you how to, you know, uh, how to relate to your older siblings, right? And th-that, that's not what the Maamar is saying, right? It's hard to say that that is the intention. Is that a takeaway? Yes, it is a takeaway. It exists somewhere where we can apply Chassidus to so many things just from what Chassidus discussed. But, um, what Chassidus actually is saying, what Chassidus actually is saying is talking about HaShem. Th-that, that's what this discussion is. And the-- what Chassidus is doing is Chassidus is putting a yin face to face with the Aibishter. It's, it's, it's removing the barriers that we should see the Aibishter, um, directly in

32:19 Speaker 2 a certain sense in our life, that every element of life should be in the panorama of the Aibishter's presence, and here's the context of it. So, like, uh, s-- uh, that's what Chassidus is trying to accomplish. So it's going to be an yin and a vedis Hashem is actually, in a certain sense, the, the true intent. That's what Chassidus is. Right. Uh, I, I don't mind dating this conversation. I think it's tremendous chassidus. It's today's Tanya, or Chitas, the 12th of Kislev. Yeah. That, uh, you know, the mitzvot, And then you see two things from there. First of all, da atzlam yiracha, right? So I think first of all, it's interesting, it's da atzlam yiracha. It's not hoven atzlam yiracha. The-- ultimately, the mitzvah of yud-beis eshtoshos, which is the mitzvah of learning about Hashem, mitzvah of learning Chassidus, is about-- it, it, it's, it's, it goes right back down to, uh, leida, in the words of the Rambam, that, uh, you know, that we go back to understand this mitzvah. Yeah. And then the, the, the alter Rebbe spells out, um, v'ovdei avodei shalom. And he goes, So there's just da atzlam yiracha, there's this step of knowing, learning and knowing about Hashem, and then there's a step of, of v'ovdei avodei shalom to right away that, to know that it's going, it's going right back to be able to serve Hashem properly. And not just in maaseh and feelings. Fine, because of, you know, it's not just, uh, it's not just about the

33:39 Speaker 2 action, it's about the full, uh, bayan with all the, all the, all the parts of the person, including his emotions. But, um, but this is where, you know, there always have to be this balance of, of da atzlam yiracha, v'ovdei avodei shalom, of going from the, the intellectual and the abstract and, and learning about abstract, but then right away, uh, bringing it to practice. Yeah. So it's, so it's actually, it's, it's, it's more than that. Chassidus gives the perspective that da atzlam yiracha, v'ovdei avodei shalom is not two separate things. Oh. It's not like, okay, so, you know, s-so Dovid is telling Shlomo his instructions of, he, he, he, here's your life legacy, this is what you should know. And by the way, let, let me just wrap this all up and throw it in a nice, cute sentence, right? He's, he's saying, da atzlam yiracha is the way towards v'ovdei avodei shalom. You cannot have v'ovdei avodei shalom without da atzlam yiracha. But then v'ovdei avodei shalom is an actual flow from da atzlam yiracha because if you're really having the da, if you're really taking it to heart, if you're really in-- integrating it, and it's not just atzlam yiracha, the God of your father, but it's your God in a very real way. Then you're going to have the v'ovdei avodei shalom in a real applicable way coming out from it. Um, you know, daas has two meanings. It's knowledge, and it also means to feel. Like the cardinal virtues. Right? It

35:10 Speaker 2 means to feel. And feeling is not something, it's not something you can do from the outside. It's, it's, you know, it's, um, there's a, uh, there's a letter from the Frieda Rebbe, um, which says something really, really amazing, right? He says, I know Yidden are known for emunah, right? He says, And a Yid feels. Because the concept of emunah is a goy is also capable of having. To recognize that it wouldn't make sense that the world doesn't have a starting point, and that starting point is God, is something even a goy could understand. And a goy can under-- do understand that they can recognize that there's a creator. That is, that's attainable. But for a Yid, it's about feeling it. For a Yid, it doesn't start with some logical proof. He feels it before he understands because it's real, it's, it's feeling. So the, uh, the, this-- and the question is about wh-when you start splitting up daas like that, in other words, part of it is the intellectual, uh, knowing and understanding, and part of it is the feeling, th-- in other words, we're used to thinking of, like, sekhel and midos. And, you know, there's a bridge, and you, you have to bridge that gap between sekhel and midos. Um, here we're saying that daas itself, that's exactly what daas is. Daas is that, that moment, in other words, not that these, I mean, sekhel and midos are two opposite worlds, the famous, uh, And the, and we have to bridge it. The

36:57 Speaker 2 daas is a tool for that, it sounds like. Daas is the way that we're telling you, and then, and then maybe going back, that maybe that's why, maybe that's a good way to say that. Chassidus is daas. Chassidus is that, uh, tool to be able to bridge between what we're learning about and how we're applying it to our lives. Is, uh, l'chayra, if so, then that should be the whole focus. The whole focus should be on, um, on, on, on learning how to or thinking about how to apply every topic that we're learning about into, into actual avodah. Okay. So I've, I've, I said in the, uh, s- Yes. One-- So when we spoke about this podcast, I said it would be really nice to not just discuss learning Chassidus, but discuss an idea. Right. Right? So you threw out makif and pnim. Right. Right? And if you think about it, where does Chassidus Chabad put focus? Are we into makif or are we into pnim? And everybody will quote to you, "Yeah, Chabad want pnim." Right. So yes, we're, we're, we're, we're into pnim. Um, at the same time, if you study Chassidus, we kind of glorify makif. Right? It's higher, and it's even higher, and it's even higher, and it's so high, right? So what's better, mamalei kolam or resembling kolam? Right? Everybody just say, "Oh, safe, come on." Right? Mamalei, whatever. It's the lowest. Yeah, it was. It's, it's not that exciting. Come on, what's higher? , right? Okay, sure, is, is

38:32 Speaker 2 advantageous. So it seems like, on the one hand, we're always, we always looking out for an exciting and dynamic makif, while our goal is actually to focus on a concrete pnim. Hmm. Right. A- and so, and what's, so what's, what is this whole journey in makif about then? Like, so, so, so in Taka, is there any talk about makif and why is the, why is it, what's the obsession with makif in Taka? So on, on a very, on a very, very basic level, on a very, very basic level, Chassidus didn't start off with Chabad. It started off with Chassidus Klalis. And the focus of Chassidus Klalis, you could say, was a makif. It was makif. Right? In other words, until the Baal Shem Tov, people were looked at for who they were, you could say, inside on a, on a personality level. Um, there's an expression that before the Baal Shem Tov, they loved the Ben Torah because he was a Ben Torah. In other words, they loved the Jew-- Sorry, was to love the Ben Torah because he's a Ben Torah. In other words, you loved the Jew based on his virtues, based on his successes. You didn't love a Jew for who he was, right? At his core. So the Baal Shem Tov came and taught about Emunah. He taught about the pnimiyut. He spoke about the neshamah. And we oriented that we should love a Yid because he's a Yid. you love the Yisroel because he is a Yisroel. Right. Now, so

40:09 Speaker 2 you could say, well, yeah, that's true on an atzmius level. Yes, that's who he is. That's his truest self. But when you talk about it, um, it feels like you're very much shifting from pnimiyut to makif. Instead of focusing on where a Yid actually is at and where is he, is, is, uh, where is his personality, where is his, um, his virtues, you're ignoring that and you're tu-turning towards makifim. All Yidden are equal. Uh, and this obviously, this... You know, the focus of Emunah. Emunah itself is a makif, right? Yeah. And Emunah is a makif where it didn't come from you, and it's bigger than yourself. And the reason why it's so big is because it's , and Hashem is . So you want-- The neshamah is able to connect to Hashem on such a level, so it's beyond yourself. So when Chassidus Chabad came, the Alter Rebbe's big chiddush was that he's gonna take concepts which we define as makif, and he's gonna make that be our pnimiyut. He's gonna bridge the gap, not only taking sechel and bringing it into midos. He's gonna take Chabad, which is-- He's gonna take neshamah, which is higher than sechel, and put it into sechel. And then from the sechel, it's gonna trickle down, and from sechel, it's going to impact. So the ve-- In other words, is, Chabad is the vehicle with which the Alter Rebbe is going to take Chassidus, which is higher than sechel, and put it into sechel, and put it into the

41:45 Speaker 2 person, right, and integrate it into life. Mm-hmm. So what happens with Chabad want pnimiyut is not to focus on the stuff that are naturally pnimiyut, but to actually chase the things that are not naturally pnimiyut, that are bigger than us, and integrate those in a pnimiyut, right? That Emunah in Hashem should not be just Emunah, it should also be da'as. That the virtue of a neshamah as being a pintel Yid should not just be an Emunah, right, or, or, or an, an awareness, an override switch in a time of nesiras nefesh, but that should be actually the go-to of how we live our day-to-day. So it's not about choosing makif over pnimiyut, it's about integrating the makif into pnimiyut and making that be the pnimiyut. That's sh-- reshaping the story of pnimiyut. Wow. So in other words, maybe if like, same way as I said before, we're not Chassidus Chab versus Chabad, there needs to be da'as, but now it's the opposite also. We're not Chassidus de. We're not just da'as. There needs to be the chochmah to be-- No, there needs to be the reach into what's beyond and abstract in and of itself. Chochmah? And then to... Yes. Which is, is even higher than chochmah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right? I'm, I'm borrowing it from, you know, it means- Right ...what's beyond you, what's, what's- Right. It's, the Alter is-- I mean, the Baal Shem Tov and the, and the Maggid were atika and arech. The, so, so, the, the kesef. Right. Right?

43:03 Speaker 2 And the Alter Rebbe comes with Chabad. Right. And it, and it's about taking that atika and arech and making that a integrated into the mata. I mean, we know, "Hachozah maayanos pruzah." Obviously was said to the Baal Shem Tov. And actually today, everybody agrees that that letter is authentic. I mean, even historians, all Hasidic groups, everybody believes that this is an authentic message from the Baal Shem Tov to his brother-in-law. No one doubts the, uh, the validity of this message. Just to make sure we're on the same page. Yeah. This is the letter about his aliyas nishama on Rosh Hashanah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So, so- The Moshiach telling him, "Shefutzu meh chutzah." Yes. So two hundred and seventy-nine years ago, the Baal Shem Tov had this huge elevation where he took this-- Without leaving this world, he was able to go meet Moshiach, "" meet the neshamah of Moshiach, demand from Moshiach's arrival. And Moshiach tells him, "When the wellsprings of your teachings will spread outwards, then it's gonna happen." But it didn't. So while everybody believes that this is true, the only ones who carry this as a banner of purpose, as a mission to fulfill, is Chabad. Mm. And it's recognized as such, where everybody is gonna say, "Oh, yeah, Yefutz is true, it exists, and that's what Chabad is here for." Right. A-and it, it's, it's almost like what? Why? Because if you dig into what does it mean, "Yefutzu mei-nesech ha'chutza," it's not just talking that Chassidus should be transported physically

44:38 Speaker 2 from inside the shul or inside the shtiebel also to the street. It's that it should be able to belong there. It should be able to be integrated. It should be able to be channeled in a way that will become part of the chutza, that this should transform the chutza. That the chutza should now feel this to resonate. In other words, if- You're saying there that bridge of makif impimi, that bridge- That bridge. Exactly. That's the message of, "Yefutzu mei-nesech ha'chutza," that it should come into the chutza. Where is chutza? The Samach Cedek says, "Chutza is sechel." Right? Mm. From outside of emunah, outside of the wellspring, the real source that a Yid has plugged into a source of the Aibishter, right? The mayim itself is sechel. First destination. So to bring it to sechel, then you, then you're bringing it to another Yid, right? Then you're bringing it to places in your life. So that is hafatzat mayim la'chutza. And the only tool to fulfill that mission is Chabad, and that is recognized by all, and they're like, "Okay, it's Chabad's mission." Why? Because you need specific tools to be able to bridge that, and that is the revelation of the Ba'al HaTanya. That's, uh- That brings, that brings a whole new, uh, appreciation to the famous, uh, idea of the Rebbe Rashab writing with this Kislev tacha coming up, that, uh, Chabad, "Hi teretz ha-Baal Shem Tov zal," that, uh, the Chabad really is the teretz of the Baal Shem Tov and, you know,

45:55 Speaker 2 there is a lot of, uh, there's a lot of controversy about that from what I understand. And, you know, in a way that, uh, people associate that, uh, Chassidut Hagaz is maybe more Baal Shem Tov-esque in terms of the chitas and the simcha and the emunah and the, uh, makif, I guess. Um, this is, this is a very important, th-this is a very important, uh, piece of that, that teretz HaBaal Shem Tov, if we look at it as, "Lishufutzu mei-nesech ha'chutza," as a mis-- as the goal of teretz HaBaal Shem Tov, then absolutely, like you said, I think everyone could agree that, uh, that Chabad is, uh, not just, not just in a, not just in a cultural way that we're, that we're actually doing that, the Chabad houses, et cetera, but, you know, they weren't doing Chabad houses in the Mitnarder Rebbe's times, in Samach Cedek's times, but this was always the mission of, "Lishufutzu mei-nesech ha'chutza," like you said. Baal Shem Tov-- The Samach Cedek said, "Chutza is the sechel of person. There's the chutza within the person," and that always was the mission statement. It is, but also even teaching Chassidus, spreading Chassidus. Right. Teaching the ideas of Chassidus was always the mission of Chabad. Right. And if we think about the Mitnarder Rebbe's Chassidim and going to travel each, each, each town and city, and even this, that mission of teaching Chassidus and being that has always been the, the, uh, mission of Chabad as opposed to other groups. And there's

47:10 Speaker 2 like a reason why, right? Everybody recognizes that this is a, a trait of genius to be able to do that. I, I had an interesting, um, uh, experience with someone. It's, it's a little bit different, but it's the same idea, that, um, someone who is, uh, not, not a Hasid Chabad, he asked me-- We were having a conversation, and he asked me-- And he's very bakanta with Chassidut Chabad and like a very-- a lot of different types of Chassidus. And he asked me, "What's the yish-- What-- How do you teach?" Like, you know, "You're a teacher. How do you teach the shiita of the Baal Shem Tov, the soyl of the Baal Shem Tov?" So I said, "Well, there's three." I said, um, "Hashkafa practice and emunah and ahavat Yisrael." And he's like, "Oh, ahavat Yisrael." So he said, "That's the way..." He said, "Okay, nice to hear that there's three, but you, by Chabad and by us," you know, whichever crisis from, um, "By us, everyone knows that the shiita of the Baal Shem Tov, the shiita of the Baal Shem is ahavat Yisrael and loving every Yid no matter what." He said, "But fascinatingly, look at any other crisis, they don't practice that. They don't practice that in a, in a, in a day-to-day and even with the-" I, I don't argue with it. I, I would say one of the beautiful things that you find in many Chassidisher communities is a lot of ahavat Yisrael and a lot of chesed and a

48:24 Speaker 2 lot of yirah. For sure. For sure. He was, he was talking about a certain- I, I, I, I don't, uh- No, no, no, he-- A hundred percent. He was talking, he was, he was spelling out a certain idea of how they deal with their own when they're, when they're going off the derech, et cetera. Like, davka cure of crazy, so to speak. Um, whatever. I, I, I don't-- This is not the place and time to start talking about how other people do it or not, but it, it was interesting just for the-- tying it back, um, we're talking about hafatzat mayones, and I'm saying a story about, regarding ahavat Yisrael. But tzadik in Kudda, we are-- Yes, like, there's a certain, uh, vision that Chassidut Chabad had that was going all the way back to the Baal Shem Tov, um, back to our context of hafatzat mayones, where this was the whole point of what Chassidus was for. Um, I, I, I think also it's, uh, it's Hashkafa practice, Shabbos, it's has Kislev. You mentioned yichudim, makif pnimi. And, uh, I always, uh, I always wondered, and I always ask people about the, the, the famous thing in the Mitnarder Rebbe, that his wish, you'll, you'll tell me the exact lashon, his wish is that when two yungerleite meet, they should discuss yichudim. Yeah. I think there's another nusach. Uh, uh- Atik anaf. Atik anaf, okay. Yeah. But, uh, yichudim, the more-- I think the more common version is yichudim. Yeah. And I always used

49:37 Speaker 2 to like think about it and ask people like, "Yichudim or yichudim?" Which one? And, and obviously not just as a technical thing, as a, as a, as a idea. What's yichudim? Yichudim means way beyond yourself. Nothing-- It's, it's all from Hashem's perspective. Chutza means the way it's all from the, from the world's perspective. So in a little bit of a deeper question, what was the Mitnarder Rebbe's wish? Mm. Is his wish that we should go out of ourselves? And, and we know the Mitnarder Rebbe, w-was talking Chassidus for what? Eighteen hours, sixteen hours? Mm-hmm. You know, the Mitnarder Rebbe lived a shtickel outerworldly in, in that sense. The Mitnarder Rebbe, we know it, cut, cut his finger and Chass-- and, and Chassidus pours out. Rebbe lived, you could say, in that Yehudi law element. At the same time, the Mitler Rebbe is a Rebbe. That means that he has a, uh, his feet on the ground, so to speak. His ability to connect to the Chassid and the Rebbe chose the story of the Mitler Rebbe, you know, with his, with the Chassid's, um, affairs making a physical effect on the Re-- on the Mitler Rebbe. The Mitler Rebbe is a Rebbe. That means he had to have a connection, and he had to be of this world, uh, to connect to the Chassidim. So, so what, what is the Mitler Rebbe's wish for us? Is it the Yehudi law? Is it the ability to escape the confines of our limited perspective or Yehudi law

50:47 Speaker 2 of, of, uh, of having it here? And obviously, the answer is both, but how? What? What's the s-

50:54 Speaker 3 So that's exactly the question of Makif and Primium.

50:57 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

50:57 Speaker 3 Um, but just on this note of the story of the, of the Mitler Rebbe, we could hear the story and be like, "Oh, well, that's intense. That's deep. That's interesting that he thought so," but, like, I'm not living that necessarily. I'm not-- that's not my life, and-

51:14 Speaker 2 Which part? Of talking with Chassidus?

51:15 Speaker 3 Of, yeah, I meet my friend and the conversation is Yehudi law, Yehudi

51:18 Speaker 2 It's, it's, uh, it's that exact bridge of Yehudi law and Yehudi Tata, that, uh, it's like almost self-re-- self-referential that, uh-

55:45 Speaker 3 But the mid-- so Chabad Malprimius doesn't say focus only on Yehudi Tata.

55:51 Speaker 2 Right.

55:52 Speaker 3 Right? In a very, very big way, yes, engage with the Yehudi law. Engage with the Yehudi law, and that Yehudi law should also make a practical difference Right? The things that are lofty, the things that are beyond, the things that are bigger, right? In other words, to look at a child and to not see the child as just, um, you know, a young human being, but to see the child as really, really

56:14 Speaker 2 Right.

57:04 Speaker 3 In a beautiful way.

57:31 Speaker 2 That is your more interactive .

58:29 Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. In a beautiful way.

58:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

58:31 Speaker 3 That I'm not-- as the Rebbe always told kids, "I'm not-- is, the commander in chief doesn't sit in the palace and wait for you to do the mission alone on the field. He comes with you to assist you in doing your mission." So if you have a mission, Hashem is here with you. So the first thing you notice when you walk into the room is being with Hashem. What's the second thing? Oh, there's the crowd. Get up on stage and say, say what you need to say.

58:54 Speaker 2 Mm.

58:54 Speaker 3 So why would I stutter?

58:57 Speaker 2 Okay.

58:57 Speaker 3 Right?

58:57 Speaker 2 What are you nervous about?

58:57 Speaker 3 What am I nervous about? It doesn't distract me from the problem, it solves the problem,

1:00:27 Speaker 2 And obviously not to take away from the actual learning of the Chassidus itself, but in other words, that beyond just the learning, in any experience, it's about the, the ta- going down to the nekuda, like you said, the nekuda, subtext of what it's all about. And it's all about, uh, uh, I would say, like, fulfilling Hashem's will. Fulfilling Hashem's will right now means for me to learn. Fulfilling Hashem's will could mean right now for me to daven, to have a

1:01:28 Speaker 3 Yes. I mean, there's always going to be a-- The difference is when if you just have emunah, if you just have emunah, there's always going to be a gap where you don't necessarily know if it's gonna impact the ma'ase. You don't know if it's gonna become real to life.

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:43 Speaker 3 Right? And then when you-- because emunah could stay the makif.

1:01:47 Speaker 2 Makif.

1:01:47 Speaker 3 Right? And when you're taking that makif and bringing it into pimiyus, you're integrating it. Then you can be-- you're not only, you're not only knowing what to do, right? Yes, Hashem has a will, but you're integrating Hashem That this becomes the way you function, the way you work, right? So when you're, when you're studying a meimor and it's talking about arech, right, that's actually a very, very personal conversation because what is arech? Arech is Hashem's ratzon, and it's the orientation towards Hashem's ratzon. So the more I understand about arech and the technicality, so to say, of arech, and the place of arech and the memudsaas it serves between, between matzol and atzolim, that's actually a very, very personal conversation because it's orienting my whole life towards doing what Hashem wants of me, right? So that's very powerful. That's very personal.

1:02:35 Speaker 2 Okay. L'chaim. Thank you for, uh, taking the time. I appreciate it. And I think this was a, um, just to, to summarize and try to crystallize a little bit, um, the, the understanding of the, I mean, I'll, I'll use the name of your book, the basics of Chassidus, understanding that the core message of Chassidus is the Chassidus part of Chassidus. In other words, that beyond every conver-- or not beyond, within every conversation of Chakira and Kabbalah, it's the-

1:03:01 Speaker 3 I, I, I, yeah, I, I hesitate calling it Chakira and Kabbalah. Of course, it's Chassidus.

1:03:04 Speaker 2 Chassidus. Of course, yeah, yeah.

1:03:06 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:03:06 Speaker 2 Da'at. Da'at Kol HaChassidus.

1:03:08 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:03:08 Speaker 2 That within every conversation of Da'at Kol HaChassidus is the, the, the absolute moment of, of truth. What it's all about is you serving Hashem. It's a person serving Hashem. Taking that message, taking that makif, taking that, uh, emunah, taking that idea, and figuring out how it means of pimias, how it's, uh, yechudat haha, how it's relevant in a person's life. Not, uh, and, and, and e- under the, all the same umbrella. We don't have to be original. We don't have to be creative, and, uh, you know, sorry, we didn't say this. I'm, I'm fitting in words here, but in other words, all going down to the same nekuda, the same ikar of serving Hashem. Although da'at zolke avicha, v'avdei v'lechol. You're learning about lofty yechudi la makif concepts, and right away, part and parcel of that is bringing it down into chinuchimius, v'avdei v'lechol, to, to bring it down into, sort of yechudat haha, chaf tzadi yud lamed nun, um, into the, into what, what it means for you to do right now to serve Hashem or to feel right now to serve Hashem.

1:04:04 Speaker 3 Yeah. So the thought that comes to mind hearing you summarize it and pack it up that way is that if you're learning Chassidus and you're just learning a godly truth, you're learning something that is true, but you don't realize that it's real, right? There's a huge gap, right?

1:04:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:04:19 Speaker 3 Right? There's a huge, huge gap. And as we, as we're approaching Yom Terus Kisliv and, uh, aleinu l'choir levavenu b'yim, so we need to awaken our hearts on this day.

1:04:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:04:27 Speaker 3 Pinas cheifetz b'datz and pnimit. That's the, as, right, with, with, with, with, with, with the truest want and desire, right? With, with, with our whole hearts. Sheyorn achi senav v'arpinus sherosay yesbach. That we should be ignited. That our, our, our neshamas should be illuminated by, by this truth. That it shouldn't just be a truth. It should be real.

1:04:44 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:04:45 Speaker 3 And that's really the conversation, right?

1:04:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:04:47 Speaker 3 Is, is, uh, is to, to tie it back, is that any time you're learning Chassidus, am I just studying a subject or is it real? Because once it's real, it's gonna have an impact.

1:04:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:04:57 Speaker 3 You do not disregard what's real.

1:04:59 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:04:59 Speaker 3 Oftentimes, we disregard what's true, but when something is real, you can't nod it off. "Yeah, yeah." You know, people say, "Yeah, true, true." Right? It's real, real. You know, you, you don't nod it off. You do something about it. You live it. You breathe it, right? And you come back for more, right?

1:05:14 Speaker 2 Beautiful.

1:05:15 Speaker 3 Thank you.

1:05:16 Speaker 2 Okay. L'chaim. May it be that, uh, all chaf tzadi yud lamed nun should lead to, uh, Mashiach now.

1:05:21 Speaker 3 Amen. Amen. Make it real.

1:05:23 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:05:23 Speaker 3 Make it real.

1:05:23 Speaker 2 All right.

1:05:24 Speaker 3 Thank you.