כניסה לחובות

00:02 Speaker 1 This is Igress, and you wouldn't know it because I want to start with a Sicha today. And, uh, by that I mean, what we're going to do right now, what we're going to do today is we're going to explore what the Rebbe thinks about going into debt, at least to the best of our abilities. Uh, what the Rebbe thinks about taking out loans, whether it be for mitzvah opportunities, for giving Tzedakah, for building schools and institutions, or even for, uh, for business purposes. What it, uh, whether there's a-- whether it's considered a good idea to take out a loan, a bad idea, a good idea to be in debt or a bad idea. Is it optimism, or is it misplaced optimism? That's the discussion today, and the, uh, way that we got into this was not using Igress. We actually got into this, uh, we very, very infrequently have dialogue between the different shiurim. But, uh, in the, in the Eim HaKov Shiur, we looked at a Sicha from the Rebbe where he essentially tells everybody to go into debt and tell their friends to go into debt and, uh, makes it sound like quite a bit of fun, as a matter of fact. And, uh, from that Sicha, we decided to see if we could look through Igress and try to get a shitah on when the Rebbe suggests taking out loans and when not. I, uh, I suspect this one will go a little bit longer than usual, so I hope you'll stick

00:59 Speaker 1 around. Uh, but I'll be here anyway because I'm talking. So the Sicha that we're looking at, the Sicha that's on the screen right now, it is-- Let me get the volume down for you. It is in Terias Menachem. It is in volume three, and it is on page two twenty-nine. It's an early Sicha. It's from Yud Beis Tammuz to Tuv Shin Yud Aleph. And, uh, this is the Sicha that started the entire conversation. The Rebbe says, . When it came to the needs of the general public, when it came to taking care of the world at large, this was the way of the Frieda Kireba. The Frieda Kireba, testified about himself that he was always in debt, that he was always in debt. And since he was always trying to increase, uh, since he was always trying to increase the amount that he was going to spend without thinking about how much he had actually raised. So he was always, uh, he was always oper-operating at a deficit. And because of this, uh, I'm just reading quickly. He said he never defaulted on his debts. Because as soon as he would, uh, he would take out a whole bunch of loans, he would get a whole bunch of money in, and, uh, then he wouldn't end up defaulting. So the Frieda Kireba was always at risk of defaulting, and then last minute would find a way to pay it, only to find that he then, as we'll see in a second, need to spend even

02:13 Speaker 1 more to help other institutions. It's kinda like plugging holes in a sinking ship in Soviet Russia and also in America in the early years there. Therefore, the Rebbe promises everybody who's involved in and Shlichus. I want you to note those words there because this is very specific. Anybody involved in the needs of the general public and in Shlichus and in spreading, uh, spreading Yiddishkeit. That if they follow in his path, what will happen if somebody follows in the Frieda Kireba's path, in the Rebbe's path? They will also have this happen to them. And what does that mean? They will always be in debt. Because they will always be spending more than they're bringing in, but along with that, they will never just, they will never, they will never default on their loans. Because, uh, if when, when they spend more than they're bringing in, they're going to then bring in even more as a bracha because they took that risk. And then, and then they're going to have even more they need to spend. It's gonna go on like that forever. So he says, anybody who follows in the Rebbe's path is involved in Shlichus and the needs of the general public, it's gonna work like this. You're gonna take out loans that you cannot afford. At the last minute, you're going to find money that is going to be able to pay it off, and then you're going to have to take out even more loans for new initiatives. So you're always going to

03:19 Speaker 1 be operating at a deficit, but you're never gonna go under. This is the promise of Shlichus. Anybody else excited? They'll go on this way, increasing all the time. Until eventually Moshiach comes, and you can give over all of your debts to the Rebbe himself. And the Rebbe's job will be to handle all of your debts. So the Re-- so the Rebbe here is saying that at the end of the day, who is in charge of all the debts that you incur when doing the Rebbe's work? And the answer is, the Rebbe is really responsible for them, so you can lay it at his feet. And the Rebbe adds, "Don't have mercy on the Rebbe. Don't say the Rebbe can't handle my debts, or I don't want him to have to handle so many debts for me." "And don't end up spending less on these important initiatives because you wanna make sure that there is a lower amount that is owed." It would be better if you brought the Rebbe a, uh, a very hefty receipt of all of your-- of all the things you owe because of all the hard work you've been doing. Because the most important thing is doing what the Rebbe wants us to do, and if that means incurring a whole bunch of debt, that's great. And if that debt falls at the feet of the Rebbe, also wonderful. And then the Rebbe finishes off by saying, "My kavana here is not just to tell other people to, uh, like I'm

04:33 Speaker 1 doing right now, to tell other people to go into debt to do mitzvahs. Also, you should make sure that you also are doing this. Make sure that both you, you're doing it and telling other people to do it." So tell her, "Go into debt. Tell everybody, 'Go into debt.'" But start with yourself. Then you'll be able to impact other people. And then as through two people, God will be honored. The higher worlds will be honored through the actions of these two people. So this is the Sicha that started it all. This does seem like a very gung-ho approach to going into debt. I'm here to tell you that it's not true across the board. We definitely have some hesitance from the Rebbe when it comes into, when it comes to going into debt. We're gonna look, uh, use a mixture of Hebrew and English letters today. Some of these letters are in English because they were originally written in English. So this letter on the screen was originally written in English. And here you just see a little bit of hesitance about debt. Taking this letter from the twenty-second day of Cheshvan of fifty-seven thirty-five, and the Rebbe writes, "I received your letter with some delay," and the parts that's bold is the part we need. The Rebbe writes, "I was particularly gratified to read in your letter that a beginning has been made in regard to the suggestion which we discussed, namely, to obtain interest-free loans from persons in order to pay off debts

05:34 Speaker 1 of so and so and eliminate the high interest rate." So here with the-- what had been suggested is that somebody had taken out a whole lot of loans, they weren't able to pay back, and the interest rate was killing them. And so what they decided to do instead was they went to an interest-free loan group, one of these gemachs, and they borrowed from the gemach in order to pay off the, uh, the high interest loans. So we see the Rebbe dealing with loans in sort of a, uh, a dashnistic way with, uh, with dastaften. If you can find ways to eliminate high interest rates, definitely do it. That doesn't mean that he's saying not to take out the loans, but I think we're seeing a little more hesitance in this letter than maybe we saw in our Sicha. Another thing to note is this letter is from the year fifty-seven elevens. This is right around the same time. This is in Tuv Shin Yud Aleph, uh- Let me see. This letter is from Thomas. This is only a few months before the Sefer that we just read. Somebody wrote to the Rebbe about a shul, uh, and the needs of the synagogue, the needs of that shul they were raising money for. And the Rebbe wrote back in English, and he said, "It appears to me that in such a situation, my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, would have said that in the interim, the members should allot the money, and at the first opportunity, a

06:29 Speaker 1 drive, an appeal, or the like should be made to raise the money to cover the deficit and create a special fund to ensure that it will not be necessary to take out loans." So if there are other opport-- if there are other possibilities, we can do a fundraiser or some way to avoid taking out loans. The Rebbe, at least in one case here, advises a shul that if they can find any other way besides taking out loans, that would be preferable. So we do see some reticence around taking loans in general, but perhaps some caution. There is one place, uh, before I get into that one place, let me show you this one, too. One more thing I want to show you. This is in Igris. This is in-- this is letter Aleph-Reish-Aleph. It's from the year Taf Shin Yud Aleph. And there's a whole bunch of points to this letter, but we're just going to go to point He in the letter, which is on the second page. You'll follow this-- find this in volume four of Igris. In point He says that, uh, since right now, uh, since right now there are a whole bunch of expenses, uh, and I think you should start small. And here the Rebbe says, We take him since they, they want to buy a certain building. And he says that buying this building that you wanna buy, this real building right now for a Torah, for a Torah project, for something very important. It was, um, it

07:32 Speaker 1 was a mesit of some kind. Um, I think it was going to be a, I think it was gonna be a, one of the ten chittims. So it's for building a yeshiva, and they wanted to buy a really big building. And the Rebbe says to them, "Since buying this building right now would require you to raise a whole lot of money right now to pay off all sorts of debts, it doesn't make sense to do that right now. Don't, so don't do it right now." Could be that in a-- it's very likely the Rebbe says that in the future, the financial situation is going to get a little bit better and the, uh, the entire economic environment's gonna work better for you. So the Rebbe is advising people who want to build a school to hold on a second, don't build the school, don't take out loans, don't, uh, let, let's not go crazy right now. It just doesn't make sense. So it's kind of hard to, uh, and this is in the same year as the Sicha. It is kind of hard to, uh, to compare that with the Sicha here, where the Rebbe is saying, uh, "Go into debt like crazy, and the Rebbe is going to cover you," and over here him saying, "But let's be smart about this." So there, there, there is some room, ish, there's room lefagfek. There's room to go back and forth on this issue. There is one place where you will find the Rebbe very consistently.

08:29 Speaker 1 I'm pulling two letters here, but I found it in a, I found it in a ton of places. I mean, I found this again and again and again. There is one place where the Rebbe never wants people to take out loans, and it is to visit him. Whenever he finds out that anybody has taken out a loan to visit him, he's not happy. When he-- when people say that they want to visit the Rebbe from a foreign country, he will usually attach a Tanai saying, "Only on condition that you don't have to go into debt to come here." People wanna take out loans to visit the Rebbe, the Rebbe is not interested at all. It's almost always a Tanai for coming to see him, that it not be, that not be involved, that, that taking out loans not be involved. Uh, I have this one here from Bav Tishrei. This is the Sicha where the Rebbe says, Certainly, it should be clear to everybody that no one should enter into debt in order to travel here. Even if you are a light without vessels kind of person, you're a little bit chaotic in the way that you serve Hashem. Even if you're one of these people who, uh, who feels that they can just, you know, do anything, and God will cover them, which is fine. Nonetheless, I don't think your yetzer hara can handle it. It's going to bother you during davening, specifically on Yom Kippur because they wanna come for Tishrei. It's gonna

09:30 Speaker 1 get in the way of your Simchas Yom Tov, your sukkahs which is called the Your yetzer hara is gonna keep on reminding you that you're in debt, and you're not gonna be able to enjoy Tishrei. So as a, uh, as a Tanai, as a condition for coming to the Rebbe on Tishrei, says, "I don't want you to incur debt," because even if you are somebody who can normally rely on God to, uh, to cover them when they incur debt, because they're a Eretz LeCheilem kind of person, they throw caution to the wind. I'm certain you're not gonna have a good Tishrei if you're worried about the debts you've incurred getting here. Uh, this is very consistent. There's, um, there's one over here, too. I also have a letter. This is from, um... Let's see if I can-- Where did I put it? Here we go. Nisilechan. Yeah. This one also says, Certainly, you're not allowed to go into debt. Certainly, when it comes to great debts that you're not sure you're gonna be able to repay, you absolutely cannot come here if coming here will incur serious debts. So we do have-- that's the end of our caution. From here, we're gonna throw caution to the wind. I'm gonna show you all the times the Rebbe says to take out debts. But I did wanna show you some, some words of caution. We see, uh, we saw in these English letters, we saw the Rebbe explaining to people that it'd be good to minimize the

10:37 Speaker 1 interest that they're paying on loans. We saw the Rebbe saying that if a shul has another way of raising money besides going into debt, that would be ideal. We, uh, we saw the Rebbe telling a yeshiva that this was just not the right time to go into debt and that it would be better not to go into debt and instead wait for better opportunities. And we saw two letters of, of many that say that if you're going to travel to the Rebbe, absolutely don't incur debt to travel to the Rebbe. And, uh, we're putting that, pitting that against a Sicha where the Rebbe essentially says that anybody involved in Yinon Erklal and in Shlichas and in doing good things in general should be able to put their debts at the feet of the Rebbe and not worry. Now, I told you that, uh, that to travel to the Rebbe, you're not allowed to take out a loan. But look at this. This letter is very interesting. To travel other places, sometimes you are. This is a letter that is, uh, Beis Taf Samech Vav. It's from the year Taf Shin Yud Daled. It's in, uh, it's originally a Yiddish letter. I pulled it in Lashon HaKodesh because, you know, me reading Yiddish is never fun for anybody. Uh, and in this letter, Beis Taf Samech Vav, the Rebbe says, "I received your letter from, from Madrishin, and ." Apparently, their child had-- they've had trouble. I don't know if the child was gonna get married,

11:43 Speaker 1 or they didn't know if the kid was gonna get married. But finally, they've, they've managed to erase-- to arrange a wedding for their child, and you've been waiting for it for many years, and you're writing to me whether it is appropriate for you to, uh, to go travel to the wedding. Apparently, it was very far away, would have been difficult to travel. And the Rebbe says, God will give you the money that it costs to get there. Don't worry about it. And if you don't travel to this wedding, if you don't travel, then that money won't arrive in any event. That is, that either you'll have the money to do it, or you won't have the money to do it, but either way, you're not saving money by not going. In other words, in other words, I want you to travel on God's bill. Uh, . This is not connected at all to the other debts that you have. Because participating in your children's wedding is an incredible So here the Rebbe is telling them that, uh, that even though they have significant debts and the financial difficulties will be substantial, that they should, uh, that they should take that financial risk, perhaps even go into debt, although he doesn't say that specifically, but he talks about the other debts that they have in order to travel, in order to be involved in a mitzvah. I, I think that if we look carefully at what's shaping up here, with one possible exception, uh, when it

13:00 Speaker 1 comes to, when it comes to , when it comes to , when it comes to special mitzvahs, the Rebbe is going to tell people that they absolutely should go into debt in order to make sure those things happen. But when it comes to, uh, when it comes to di-- when it comes to things that are , the Rebbe is not going to be as interested in them going to debt. Another major cloud we're gonna get, and I think this is probably the biggest one, I'm just saying it as we're developing the , is that if there are other options on the table, the Rebbe doesn't usually want people to go into debt. When this says that we cheerfully go into debt, that is we cheerfully go into debt when there are no other options. But when there are other options, then, uh, and, and we can still get the de-- the job done without incurring debt, the Rebbe seems to want us to not incur debt unless absolutely, absolutely necessary. There's a business here writing to the Rebbe. This is a bit of an exception to the rule that I was just saying about how it's usually in that he advises debt. Where somebody wrote to the Rebbe saying that in order for their business to succeed, she would need to take out some loans. This letter is and it's actually printed in . You will find it in volume ten of Igeres. And the Rebbe writes to a woman, . Probably like Tuesday of

14:02 Speaker 1 , I guess. Yeah, . You could, uh... She's gonna-- She wants to move her store to a more central location, a better location for her shop. She'll go into debt to do it, but she thinks she's gonna bring in more business, so should she go into debt to move her shop to a more ideal location? The Rebbe says, it's my opinion, that nonetheless, it's still a good idea to go into debt to get a better position for your shop. Because this counts as expanding the of parnasah. Wouldn't have expected that. That, you know, we're supposed to make a to have your own . We put in an effort toward parnasah, and the Rebbe says for a business person, making the business decision that I need to take out a debt in order to get more, uh, in order to, um, increase the, uh, the visibility of my product or the location of my store in order to make that better, that's considered expanding the of parnasah. And this fulfills the verse, "Widen your mouth and then I will answer you." So part of you making a for, uh, for parnasah is you incurring debt to move your store to a better location. But then the Rebbe says, "I also hope that you will expand the other parnasah, which are of course Torah and mitzvahs," and he tells her, "Hiddan mitzvah is particularly important." This letter is from the year . The label is and, uh, it's in volume of Igeres. And here the Rebbe says

15:22 Speaker 1 that the people should consider refinancing, or I guess that's really probably the best way to put it, uh, incurring more debt in order to, uh, in order to make their living space more, uh, more enjoyable. Uh, that's the best way to put it. Here, read this. They're thinking of selling their apartment right now, to move into a smaller apartment. So they're writing to the Rebbe saying, "We can't afford the big house we're in right now. We wanna move into a smaller one." Says, "First of all, uh, you're telling me that, that, uh, you're gonna take a loss if you, if you lose this, if you sell this house right now. So first of all, you're gonna take a loss. Second of all, the money that you gain from selling this house isn't going to bring in enough to cover your current debts." "And furthermore, this is most important, you've been living in this house the way it is right now for a long time, and moving to a smaller apartment, it's going to cause it's gonna upset everybody." As say, there are three things that expand the mind of a person, and one of them is having a nice house. So the Rebbe raises a whole bunch of concerns. First of all, you're gonna take a loss if you sell the house. Second of all, you're not gonna be able to cover your debts even with the money that you get from selling the house. And furthermore, if you move into a smaller house, it

16:33 Speaker 1 is going to, uh, it's going to, uh, bother your mind. It's not gonna allow you to expand your mind in your study of Torah. Therefore, the Rebbe's advice is . "I would like you to find a way to, I think, refinance. Take the loan, make it longer, and, uh and make the, make it a longer term loan so that you will have lower monthly payments." Says, "Therefore, by that bit by bit, you'll be able to leave the difficulties you're having on the outside, and meanwhile, you will still have your house inside. You'll be able to expand your mind accordingly." So here the Rebbe is not really suggesting somebody go into debt, but that somebody rearrange the terms of their loan and put themselves in more debt. That is that they're in debt, I don't know, for ten years, and the Rebbe is telling them, "Switch it over to a thirty-year, be in debt for thirty years, but you'll make the payments smaller." And so we see that the Rebbe is not really shying away from debt here so much as telling people, giving people good advice on how to deal with it. Specifically to our point, I wanna show you a bunch of letters in English on this topic, at least three. Yeah. Uh, where the Rebbe really encourages people to go into debt specifically for mitzvahs in which speaks very much to the first . This is a letter that was originally written in English. It's from seventeen Teves of fifty-seven eleven. Once again,

17:42 Speaker 1 another-- A lot of these are letters. So the Rebbe writes, "Greetings and blessings. On the basis of the directive of my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, we immediately began surveying the situation in North Africa." I'm cutting a lot of pieces out of this letter. But he says, "It's obvious that the work was disrupted to a great degree because of lack of money. They were working on North Africa, on the Yidden there, and they weren't able to do it because they didn't have enough money. The heart is pained to an even greater degree when one contemplates that with only a few additional dollars, so much more could be achieved. We could do much more if we had more money. For example, the education of one child for a month in yeshiva costs between eight and nine dollars and one to one and a half dollars in the Talmud Torah. This includes the wages for the teacher, the rental of a facility, the giving of a meal once or twice a day." Can you imagine back then you used to be able to educate a child for nine dollars a day? In, uh, in any event, a month, excuse me, nine dollars a month. Uh, that was, that was tuition once. So the Rebbe says, "We don't have the money, though." So then the Rebbe says, "Without paying attention to the lack of money and calling to mind the directive of my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, we took out various loans." What do we-- what, what directive? Almost

18:37 Speaker 1 certainly the directive that he's mentioning here, that it is, uh, that it's okay to go into debt for Ein Yaanah Klal and for Shlichas. So we took out various loans. As is known, we'd already established a teachers' institute. There he goes on and on. So the Rebbe says that we, uh, followed the Friediker Rebbe's advice in North Africa and took out loans because we were not able to cover the needs of the moment without it. This is a letter from fifty-seven twenty, that would be nineteen sixty, the fifth of Shevat in nineteen sixty-- Oh, the February third, nineteen sixty. They put the dates in English. That's nice of them. "Greeting and blessing. I received your letter on January twenty-fifth, and you wrote the paragraph in which you mentioned about your latest business transactions. It's not very clear to me." So the Rebbe says, "I have no idea what you're talking about with your business. You, you told me about your numbers and something doesn't make sense. At any rate, may God guide you in the way that's best for you, so that your Parnassa will be ample and truly affluent. You and your family enjoy it in good health and on happy things, which of course includes matters of Torah and Mitzvot and Tzedakah above all." I love the English translations of these things. I mean, this was ori-originally in English, but Maskirus writes Mitzvot instead of Mitzvahs. It's fun. With regard to the bank loan, here's the bold part. With regard to the bank

19:34 Speaker 1 loan, it is a pity that you did not request a larger one. You took out a loan, I want you to request a larger loan. And as we have talked about here, for inasmuch as Tzedakah is a partner in a substantial proportion, you, you figure out the English, the good offices of the Ba'al Tzedakahs, the Almighty, are at work here. It's only really possible to understand what this English-- It's a weird phrasing in English, but what he says in the next letter, which is to the same person about the same topic, unpacks it. So let's look at the next letter, then you'll understand. "Shalom u'bracha, I'm acknowledging your letter from February seventh. You write about being pressed for funds to get the material out of customs, et cetera. As I wrote to you in my previous letter, it is a pity that you did not request a larger loan from the bank, but it's no use crying over the past, and the Almighty will surely present some other channels to help you out of the difficulty. At any rate, I hope that from now on you will realize more fully and confidently that God is your partner in the business by virtue of the Tzedakah stake in it, and of course, the larger share of the Tzedakah, the larger the share of the partnership. So you can go boldly ahead on a broader front." So what the Rebbe is telling this person is that since they're involved in some sort of Tzedakah initiative, and since

20:30 Speaker 1 Tzedakah is part of what they're doing, Hashem is part of what they're doing. When, when you're doing something for Kedusha, when you're doing something for Ein Yaanah Klal, when you're doing something for the needs of the moment, whether it's in North Africa or the Tzedakah that's being discussed in this letter, the question is really not whether you should go into debt, but how much of a-- how big a loan you can get. The Rebbe says, "I'd like you to go to the bank and ask for even more money when it comes to Ein Yaanah Klal, when it comes to Shlichas, when it comes to Mitzvahs." So what we're seeing so far, we're gonna end on a couple of Sichas that I have over here in the corner, but really what we're seeing across Igris, I think, is that first of all, if there's another option on the table besides going into debt, the Rebbe is almost always going to suggest it. The Rebbe doesn't think debt is a good first choice for people, even if they're involved in Kedusha, even if they're involved in Ein Yaanah Klal. We certainly saw that with the shul that was interested in, uh, taking out loans. The Rebbe said, "I think you can raise the money." There's certainly a, an understanding of the fact that debt, especially with interest, can be very damaging. We should only use it when absolutely necessary. At the same time, you do see a certain kind of what we would call in secular culture,

21:22 Speaker 1 reckless abandon. That is, we certainly see a lot Tchila Ariva way of doing things where the, uh, the Rebbe's saying that if there-- if the needs of the moment call for more money and he can't get it any other way, absolutely take out loans, don't worry about it at all and the Friediker Rebbe has got you covered, and this is particularly not just when it comes to Ein Yaanah Klal, Shlichas, and Kedusha, but even when it comes to things like, uh, visiting your children to, uh, to, to, to, to, to go to their wedding, which is a mitzvah, but not something that's for the general public. Or for going into debt to move your business to a better location, which the Rebbe calls making a kli for Parnassa. Or refinancing in order to make sure that your house is big enough for you to have an expansiveness of thought. So we see that the Rebbe is not shying away from debt, he's just using it kind of as a, a, uh, a secondary, um, a secondary possibility after all of the possibilities have been exhausted. There are two other Sichas you should be aware of. This one is also in Tam Shin Yud Alef, and this one also talks about how the Rebbe was, uh, the Friediker Rebbe was always in debt, but sort of explains it in Ruchnius. It says here, "Am alee el hishiner hagilas haya kam legeli skashas al-Rebbe. We said earlier that if you wanna know how to be a Mekusher,

22:20 Speaker 1 how to, how to have hiskashas to connect to a Rebbe, one of the ways to do it is hishiner hagilus, is changing from what's regular. That is, uh, that is taking whatever you normally do and doing things a little bit differently. The Rebbe says we're very close right now to the Yahrtzeit, Yahr Shevat, the first Yahrtzeit of the Friediker Rebbe. "Tshinna as is aliyah g'deleh v'yesad atzalah d'Rebbe. This will create an incredible aliyah by him, and in order for us to have hiskashas to him, we're gonna have to step up our game." What does that look like specifically? The Rebbe often said about himself that he was always in debt and, uh, l'cheila haray zeh tarted et hasasid, and that he also never defaulted on his debt. And this apparently is a tarted et hasasid. These are things that contradict each other. "Keim she'ach pam leefashut hasidag al-achatz kam ad ken tza'ar plem ish ishalom v'chavis." Since he never defaulted, clearly he paid off his debts, so why was he always in debt? And the answer is that by the Rebbe, the seder was always that he paid off of his debts and then sor-shortly afterwards, he ended up with more debts because he was working so hard, as we spoke about in the prior Sicha. What does that have to do with us? In the prior Sicha, the Rebbe said by us, that means we also have to incur debt. Here, the Fri- the Rebbe says, "You can incur debt in Ruchnius as well.

23:18 Speaker 1 B'neguel ein yanena, when it comes to us. Keim she'ach Rebbe ach pam leefashut hasidag v'chasim ishalom." Since the Friediker Rebbe never defaulted. "Tzrich leida shekol habrachas v'tachas shel Rebbe achaveh shel akach halatzmei." Certainly, all the brachos and the promises of the Rebbe, which are the obligations that he took onto himself, v'vadi is kam impel, certainly the Rebbe is going to fulfill every bracha that he gave somebody because he never remained in debt. So since the Friediker Rebbe always paid off his debts, he certainly isn't going to be somebody who promised you something and now that he's Nista'alek won't be able to fulfill it anymore. "Kol elei she'Rebbe b'archas hem b'nechem hem tzeneh r'vicha." Everybody who got brachos from the Friediker Rebbe in any part of their lives can still expect to get those brachos because the Friediker Rebbe pays his debts. "Aval, yeish seras asiyyas keilim," but you gotta make vessels for that. What does that look like? "Hashpa'ah shel Rebbe yesh hem aval tzrichim la'as is keilim k'neil kabalas hashpa'ah." How do you make that kli? "Ha-kli, ha-kli l'kabalas hashpa'ah shel Rebbehu." If you want to get that hashpa'ah from the Rebbe, the kli is, "shiner hagilus," changing your regular way of doing things. "V'haide is azechin l'kabalas b'rachas m'shel Rebbe hem tza'ar m'nechem hem tzeneh r'vicha." So when you change your agilus, when you put yourself out of-- when you step outside of your comfort zone in Yiddishkeit, you create a kli for the Friediker Rebbe to pay back his spiritual debts to

24:19 Speaker 1 everybody and to the entire world, which he incurred by making promises about brachos that perhaps at that point had not yet been fulfilled. Last thing I wanna show you. This is a Sicha from much later. This is a Sicha from Taf Shin Mem Gimel. It's in volume three. They haven't republished these yet, so it's in the Toras Menachem, uh, hisfa'aduyus of Taf Shin Mem Gimel. And here, the Rebbe tells the story again. He says that, uh, the Friediker Rebbe was always involved in tzarchei tzibbur and the needs of the congregation. "V'nezaveda, was never mugdelis v'mutsumtemis." He never limited the way that he reached out. "L'fi erech kamas eksaf v'shayol and b'zoman." He never based his work on what kind of cash he had available. "El atamod hayah shelah b'chavis." He was always, he was always, uh, he was always buried in debt. "V'lo yifach ad m'chavis," and he was never afraid of the debt that he was in. "V'kash ya'apar es hachavis hakenimin," as soon as he would pay off his old debts, "lakach chavis chadash," he would take out new debts. "K'nesh yuchal la'archiv es ha'pulos d'afatzes hateva v'ya'abedus," so that he could expand his efforts in spreading Torah and Yiddishkeit. "V'lei kein ha'seitem," this is not like those who err and say, "She'lei li yes b'menuchas nefesh v'menuchas guf.

25:16 Speaker 1 . This is not like people say that, uh, you can't spend more than what you have because you need to focus on your and your personal comfort. Therefore, our Rebbe tells us a person needs to live to first of all jump over all barriers. You will only have true Menuchas Nefesh when you are fulfilling the Avoda and the Shlichus, when you're doing your job. As goes the teaching of our nasi, when you're involved in spreading Torah, spreading Yiddishkeit and spreading the wellsprings of Hasidus. You cannot ful-- you cannot say I fulfilled my obligation by dealing with what is readily available. You gotta take on debts. Now here he puts-- Th-th-that last line is supposed to be, um, also in spiritual sense, that you don't just use the capabilities you have, but you also take out, to take out loans and reach beyond yourself. But there's also the understanding here that the way the Frieda Rebbe operated is not like those who err and say that when it comes to a good operation, if there's needs of the moment, if a shul needs something, if a, if a cheder needs something, if a Shlichus, if a Chabad house needs something, if anything involving has a need, there is a Seforim out there to say, "Look, being relaxed and being at peace with yourself means not going into debt and only spending what you have." And the Rebbe says, "Don't agree at all." That's a not like those who make that mistake. Rather, act in a way

26:39 Speaker 1 of . So what we get from everything here, I know we've summed this up already kind of once, but let's do like the one big overview, and then we can talk a little bit, is that if there are other opport-- if there are other ways to, to, uh, to meet our goals, I don't think debt is the Rebbe's first choice. However, it is definitely in the tool belt. And as far as the Rebbe's, uh, enthusiasm really for going into debt for the purposes of Yiddishkeit and for the purposes of and the needs of the moment, uh, I think that the Rebbe is, um, is without a doubt, uh, effusive about it, about the, about the importance and the opportunity in going into debt for the right reasons. As for anything that's not and the needs and spiritual needs of the moment, I think we gotta probably say it's a case-by-case basis. We do have some letters where the Rebbe encourages people to take out loans for their business and to take out loans for their homes and things like that, but I'm not sure we can say a general shita about when the Rebbe says to go into debt and when not when it comes to a person's personal needs. But I am comfortable at this point with all the information in front of us saying, because I didn't find an exception to it, that when the entire Klal needs something, when there's a need of Shlichus, when there's a need of, uh-- when there's

27:38 Speaker 1 a public need for a greater spreading of Yiddishkeit that going into debt, if there are no other ways of getting the money, is not just something we do, but something that we do quite cheerfully with complete trust that our debt is on the Rebbe's, uh, on the Rebbe's ledger, and that he will help us pay it back. Thank you all very much.

27:58 Speaker 2 I like that interpretation of the reckless endangerment, was it?

28:05 Speaker 1 I didn't mean it, I promise.

28:07 Speaker 2 I think took it to that degree.

28:11 Speaker 3 Shlomo couldn't have answered the Rebbe, actually. Shlomo once came in, and the Rebbe saw the budget for the cheder in LA, and the Rebbe expressed shock on how large the budge-the budget was compared to how many students there were. So the point is, I, I think you could find a few things. When it comes to business or investment, debt per se is not bad if it's an investment. That's clear. When it comes to a spending money on a project, not wasting money, meaning the, the, the recklessness is, I think, the wrong term because the Rebbe seemingly was very against the waste or recklessness or lack of oversight on budgeting. But for valuable spending, debt shouldn't hold back a from growing in . The question is if this relates back to personal people to borrow money to let's say get stuck at this part of . I don't know if that would apply because that wasn't addressed here. These are all addressing . Now, it could be the same answer, but these are all addressing that you shouldn't stop growing your with proper spending, even if it will put your into debt.