תחרות בתחום החינוך

00:00 Speaker 1 This is Yigras, and we are looking at a letter today from about fifty years ago. It is from Beis Kislev of Tav Shin Lamed Dalet. It's a short letter with a big story behind it. We're not actually going to do much of the big story. We're going to use it as a launching point into a broader discussion. What we're gonna talk about today is Hasagos Gvul in Chinuch specifically. That is, when is one institut-- when is one, uh, when is one school not allowed to open up next to another school? When should one school hesitate before opening up next to another school? Do we ever say that teachers shouldn't teach because they might offend other teachers who are nearby? I kept this very limited, the Rebbe writes about Hasagos Gvul in businesses, encroachment when it comes to businesses and when it comes to jobs. We are not gonna talk about that at all today. We're just going to talk about Hasagos Gvul as it exists in institutions. And as a launching point for that, we're looking at a letter from fifty years ago where the Rebbe addresses exactly this point. Uh, below the line is where all the interesting stuff is. Let's go down here. This is a letter that was written to, uh, to Rabbi Shapiro of the Yeshivat Gedola of Miami Beach, which has its own fascinating story. I'd love to do it sometime, the beginnings of the yeshiva in Miami Beach. The Rebbe sent shluchim there, sort of set up a yeshiva.

00:58 Speaker 1 Co-- about a year later, i think sent, uh, Rabbi Shapiro down, Label Shapiro down. He was a chozer of the Rebbe, a brilliant person. Um, is a brilliant person, and, uh, who has a wonderful Zichronos series that you can listen to on, uh, podcasts and on WhatsApp. It's fantastic, his Zichronos. So, uh, he was sent down there to be the Rosh Yeshiva. And there's some correspondence, not as much as you would hope, but some correspondence that we have published between the yeshiva and the Rebbe. This is one of the only ones that is well-publicized. They actually put this out in one of their kovetzim one year before it made it into Yigras, and this is from the year Tav Shin Lamed Dalet. They wrote to the Rebbe. Let's read the question. They asked, b'mikhtavah, they asked, “Ach, a member Anash dibriti,” says Rabbi Shapiro. "A member of Anash spoke with me," which, by the way, is the, is the, is the beginning of all trouble in the world. "A member of Anash was talking to me." We know there's a problem. "Kam apamim," over and over again. "In Brooklyn." Uh-oh. The worst, uh, the trifecta. A guy from Anash keeps talking to me, and he's from Brooklyn. “Sh'roitz sh'benei aviv limud b'yeshiva kan.” He wants his son to come learn in our yeshiva. He lives in Brooklyn. He wants to send his kid to Miami Beach to learn in the new yeshiva in Miami. “Lehibadel shliach k'movana.” He's now-- doesn't want to send him to

01:55 Speaker 1 be a shliach. He wants to send him to be a student. “Ve'retzeh ladei damah ashiva.” I wanna know, what should i answer him? "Hainu, uh, mah hu hapolisi?" What should the policy be, “negueyleh yeshiva dekan,” regarding our yeshiva here, “im lekabel talmidim me-Anash,” from Brooklyn, “vekedemah?” So he's asking the Rebbe, "Should we accept students from other places, or are we only here to accept students from Miami?" And in, in, i-inherently, he's also asking, "Should we be in competition with the other Temichei Tmimim? Should we be vying for students, or should we only be focusing on our, on our immediate area?" And the Rebbe writes up here, “Ein inyanim klal l'lochem be-Temichei Tmimim ve'dal.” Quick answer, direct answer. There is no such inyan that there should be arguments, fights between Temichei Tmimim, and it should be, uh, and that should be enough for the discerning to understand. What the Rebbe means by this, i'm almost certain, is you are not to recruit students from other Temichei Tmimim. This is not a competition. You don't fight with other schools for students. You're in Miami. You recruit students from Miami. If there's a student in Brooklyn, you should be going to Temichei Tmimim in Brooklyn. We don't, uh, we don't allow arguments like this. Now, it is worthwhile to know that in a yechidus afterwards, achei kak, amer l'kav hakedushas, admer b'yechidus, the Rebbe later told Rabbi Shapiro in yechidus that if the yeshiva in Brooklyn asks him to accept a certain student into the yeshiva in Miami,

03:00 Speaker 1 of course accept him. We're talking about you poaching. Don't go poaching from other Temichei Tmimim was the Rebbe's message. There's a second message in here that we'll read, even though it's not exactly on our topic. Uh, he asked the Rebbe if some of his students can leave every now and then to go do mivtzim. Uh, he wasn't sure they were allowed to do that in Miami. Obviously, it had been done in Crown Heights for a while, but i guess he wanted explicit permission. The Rebbe doesn't really understand that, though the Rebbe says, “Harim befor som.” It's already very well-known. “Sheb Temichei Tmimim dekan,” that in our Temichei Tmimim, “eisen kana.” We send students out for mivtzim all the time. “Elav sh'tzaryach lihyes kabalas hashelus me-hanhalah.” But it has to be with permission from the hanhalah. It isn't just students say, "I didn't come to Seuda this morning. I felt like putting tefillin on people." It's gotta be in a mesulded way. It's gotta-- you gotta ask the hanhalah first. “V'lo adas atzmai vekedab v'kod-- v'kod alei chad ve'chad.” It's not each person making their own decisions how they're gonna do it, but as long as it's organized, obviously we do it here, do it there, “vekalah havin,” and that's easy to understand. So of course, what we're going to focus on today is this first entry, which is that Temichei Tmimim are not allowed to fight. We're not allowed to have a-- we don't wanna have Hasagos Gvul of any kind. We don't wanna have

03:52 Speaker 1 encroachment. I'm gonna keep using the term Hasagos Gvul, but i know some people are less comfortable with the phrase, so i'm gonna translate it one last time before i switch permanently. That's encroaching on someone else's property or someone else's domain, uh, someone else's area. So you could say that somebody's, uh, being, um, that there's Hasagos Gvul between two schools when a new school opens up next to an original school. Now, i do wanna point out that according to Rambam, there's no such thing. So we have a Rambam in front of us. This is in Hilchos Talmud Torah, the second chapter, the seventh halacha, and the Rambam says down here, “V'cheim lamad tinakes sh'ba chaveiro pasach beis, la-- bayis lamad tinakes b'tzedei.” If there's a melamed and a new melamed moves into town and he opens up his own cheder right next door, “kedai sh'yavei tinakes acheirem lei,” so that he'll bring other students into his school, “ay kedai sh'yavei mitinakes shel zeh etz lo zeh,” or maybe because he even wants to poach the students. If a competition opens up next door, if you have a cheder in one, in one building, another cheder opens up next door, and even if his intent is to poach the students, “eni achalim chas biyadei,” you're not allowed to stop him. “Al pi halacha,” this is not Hasagos Gvul. “She'na mar,” because it says in the pasuk, “Hashem chafeitz mahantsid piyad b'Torah v'yadir.” God wants to make the Torah great and glorious. Adding more Talmud Torahs, adding more

04:53 Speaker 1 places of Torah study is never Hasagos Gvul. So we should know that we're always dealing right now in midas hachasidis. Al pi halacha, there is no such inyan as Hasagos Gvul between two educational institutions. A yeshiva can open up right next to the yeshiva intentionally hoping to poach all of its students, and Hashem says, “Yad b'Torah v'yadir.” So halachically, we're never dealing with an issue here. We're dealing more with political issues, with, uh, midas hachasidis, with feelings in the area, but certainly not with the actual dinim of Hasagos Gvul. Let's look at a couple other letters where the Rebbe addresses meisdos chinuch that are having Hasagos Gvul issues. This letter is Labeled Yud Beis Taf Pei. It was on Pesach Sheni of Tav Shin Lamed Ches. And the Rebbe here is writing about, it's a really interesting backstory. He's writing to, uh, Zvi Hirsch Heidrich, who was at the time interested in helping Lubavitch purchase the Jewish Community Center as part of Eileh Terah, and I believe that was ultimately successful. So there was a Jewish center, which I assume was like a JCC, at six sixty-seven Eastern Parkway, and the Federation wanted to-- they wanted to hand it over to the Federation, and Lubavitch was working to try to find a way to buy this building, I believe, uh, instead of the Federation getting their hands on it, so it could go to us and be used for Eileh Terah. So, uh, the, so Rebbe Heidrich's writing to the Rebbe about his, uh, about

05:58 Speaker 1 his, uh, efforts in this, whether he should be working hard to make this happen. And the Rebbe writes to him, "Bimeshmeshu ihu atzmi shekach latzmi lasig bezev apeil." If you or somebody else is willing to take on this job of making sure we get this building, actually, befin mesuder, in an organized way, nuch a derech v'teva. It'd be great if we could get the building. "Ve kamuvin befin shleitia taina sa sagas gvul tem hechimim keitz bezeh." As long as no one's gonna make the taina of a sagas gvul, uh, against Tem Hechimim. I believe against Tem Hechimim bekeitz bezeh. Az kedd al atzmi. Later on, by the way, this did end up working out, and we have another letter down here. The Rebbe writes, "Toda es ha'emet, ap saras teves." Thank you very much for the good news. Kedai li shaddal. Definitely keep on making the effort. I'm glad to hear this is gonna happen. Sh'lo bishmi. But don't let people know it's about me. Now, we have two key words here. We have sh'lo bishmi, the Rebbe doesn't want his name on this. And second of all, look at this phrase up here. Tiah taina sa sagas gvul. The claim of sagas gvul. We don't want the local community to hate us. We don't want it to look like the Rebbe is trying to take things over. But if we're talking about the halachas of a sagas gvul, obviously that's not shaiach. We're taking a building and using it for Torah study. Whether we're

06:54 Speaker 1 encroaching on somebody else's property doesn't really matter halachically. But we are concerned, the Rebbe is concerned about the taina of a sagas gvul, about the claim of potential a sagas gvul between us and other educational institutions or other Jewish institutions. And so he doesn't want it to look like we're encroaching, even though halachically we're not. The word taina is important there. However, don't forget our letter. It looks like the Rebbe says, "Ein inyanim klali lacham et Tem Hechimim," doesn't say a sagas gvul. We just don't want fights. So again, we're seeing this idea now in two letters that we don't see literal hasagas gvul, actual encroachment when it comes to two educational institutions. But the Rebbe doesn't like when Tem Hechimim fight, and he also doesn't like when it looks like we're fighting with other people. It should look good. It shouldn't look like we're encroaching. But as for hasagas gvul itself, we're really not seeing much mention of it. We have here a letter. This letter is labeled Yud Beis Kuf Mem Ches. It is from Sivan of Tav Shin Lamed Zayin. And, uh, this is written to-- It's an answer to a minahal of Beis Din Chabad in the city, and there's a s-- there's a, a shliach in another city that's near it, and he wants to open up a school right next to the original school. Two shluchim wanna open schools up next to each other, and they're in a fight. And the Rebbe says, "Harei yesh linam kan aba firat

07:55 Speaker 1 bezdin merkazit Chabad Yerushalayim tivedes v-v'tsikanin." The Rebbe doesn't dismiss it, nor does he say it's asur. The Rebbe says, "Take it to a bezdin." So we have here the Rebbe at least addressing the concern as something serious. Maybe the two schools shouldn't be next to each other and telling them that since it's not local and it's in Yerushalayim, I expect you to send it to bezdin. So we have here a slightly different approach from what we've seen so far. This isn't the Rebbe necessarily shying away from the argument or saying, "Don't make a fight." He's saying, "Go to bezdin," which might be his way of saying, "Don't make a fight." I don't know. This letter that we have here is, uh, we're only gonna read the first part of it. The second part I would love to do as an independent shiur. This is a letter to Peretz Muchkin, where the Rebbe explains at length his policy on alcohol. There's, uh, multiple pages about the Rebbe's policy on alcohol, and we're just not gonna be able to get into it because the top of it is what we need for right now. So this letter is Aleph Tav Tav Kuf Chaf Zayin. It's from the year Tav Shin Yud Gimmel. It's written to Peretz, uh, to Peretz Muchkin in Montreal. And he writes the following, "Venam kibalti mechtah mechaf Tes Chesvan." I was very happy to receive your letter from the twenty-ninth day of Chesvan. "Veha'akedem, veha'akedem." And the thing that came before it, I

08:52 Speaker 1 believe. "Ve'eneisi likrobei al derech halimudim hasherim." I was very happy to read about all of the things that you've been teaching. "Shehuchva visvadus beis hamuchsar." It sounds like Peretz, uh, Peretz Muchkin had set up, uh, had set up shiurim maybe. He was giving shiur, and he was giving farbrengens, and he was very involved in sort of a-- kind of the thing we do around here, you know, where there's a lot of, lot of sort of pickup shiurim in people's houses and shuls. He'd been doing this, and the Rebbe was very happy to hear about it. "Uvetach lemeisi leha'yudah." It certainly is, um, it certainly is unnecessary, uh, e-extra for me to point out. "Kimu van hu atzmi," sh-- because it's self-understood. "Shevivadi ambezeh inyum sh'al sagas gvul." You should know that you don't have to worry about hasagas gvul at all when it comes to you establishing shiurim in your town or giving farbrengens in your town. There's no such thing as hasagas gvul between local shiurim, between farbrengens. "Upulas nifulas ruch shel acheirim." You don't have to worry about other people getting upset about it. "Yeda'ah maspika v'dil kolech hanmiyetanu." Every single one of us has enough work to do. "Mivlit di goyim parnasasashal chaveir beruchniyus." We're not gonna get in the way of another person's ruchniyusdik parnasah. Gashmiyusdik parnasah maybe we worry about. When it comes to ruchniyusdik parnasah, there's enough room for outreach, for teaching, for farbrengens for everybody. There's no such thing as a farbrengen that's masig gvul. There's no such

09:53 Speaker 1 thing as a local shiur that's masig gvul. And as we saw in Rambam, this happens to be a din in halacha, that there's no such thing as Torah that's masig gvul. But here the Rebbe puts it in more specific terms, also terms that are a little more shaiach to us, especially in a town in, in our area. We're in Rockland County. You know, there's a, there's a million shiurim everywhere all the time, and every-everybody has a farbrengen all the time. There's always sort of a discussion, or at least an undertone of, is this getting in the way of that? Is there a sagas gvul here? Can you really start this at the same time as that? Should two things be running at the same time? The Rebbe says we don't worry about such things. There's enough parnasah ruchnis- parnasah ruchnis for everybody. When it comes to those sorts of things, there is no such thing as hasagas gvul. And then he goes on to talk about mashgiach, which again, I would love to read this letter a different time, but not for today. Another letter over here. It's our second to last letter. It's short-ish. Its letter is labeled, uh, Daled Chaf. It's from Yud Aleph Teves of Tav Shin Tes Zayin. And the Rebbe writes to N sheh abones Chabad Be'er Tsadekes. And we're gonna go down to the second paragraph. "Mashgiach ches edes yisud gan marava." It sounds like they wanted to establish a kindergarten, a gan, in the West. I think, The

10:54 Speaker 1 Rebbe says, "Although in general, it would be a good thing." Generally speaking, opening kindergartens are great. "But I do want you to be worried about Hasagos Kvool with another gan that is Haredi that is found nearby to it." So the Chabad writes to the Rebbe saying, "We wanna open up our own kindergarten." And the Rebbe says back, "I don't know, there's another Haredi gan right next door. I'm not sure that's not a problem of Hasagos Kvool." Now, the Rebbe says, Even though as we learned in Rambam, in din, in Halakha, there's no such thing as Hasagos Kvool when it comes to Chinuch. So you don't have a Halakhic problem here. You're gonna cause problems. You're gonna cause political issues. There's a, there's a possibility of creating fights. And so the issue here isn't so much the Halakhic Hasagos Kvool. I'm worried you're gonna make-- you're gonna create ill will with a Haredi, uh, gan that's right next door. Certainly, you can first clarify before opening this gan whether there's any basis for this concern. And then based on your investigation as to whether anybody's gonna get upset about this, then you can decide excuse me, then you can decide whether to open it or not. So again, here we're seeing, I think, a strong recurring theme that the Rebbe is not telling anybody that al pi halakha, they can't open an educational institution next to an existing one, but he is frequently telling people, "Be careful of the politics, be careful of local feelings. We

12:08 Speaker 1 don't wanna upset anybody. We-- There is enough parsono-- parnasa ruchnis for everybody. There's enough room for everybody, but that doesn't mean that we have to fight with everybody." And this is a, this is a tightrope walk 'cause on one hand, we have in this letter the Rebbe very clearly saying, "It's not a problem at all. Open up all these. Open up your chadarim. Teach everywhere. Give Habad brangins everywhere. There's enough parnasa and ruchnis for everybody. There's enough work to be done for all of us." At the same time, the Rebbe is telling us that's true, but that doesn't mean that your competition feels that way. And since your competition might not feel that way, make sure to take their feelings into account 'cause this isn't always worth a fight. You don't always have to open up next door and start a fight. In this last letter that we're gonna look at together, the Rebbe explains the basis for a lot of the things we've been talking about, and I think gives a beautiful message near the end about why people worry about Hasagos Kvool so much and where they see Yetzer Hara comes from because as I think we know, anybody who's been in this field at all knows that there is an enormous Yetzer Hara. When it comes to, uh, when it comes to, uh, other people trying to run good things near you, your first urge is to say, "Well, get out of my way. This is my territory. This is my-- This

13:03 Speaker 1 is the time that my share is scheduled. How can you have another one on top of it?" This is a big Yetzer Hara, and the Rebbe describes in this last letter why that Yetzer Hara exists. So we have this letter, it's dalet tuf tuf ayin dalet. It's from the year taf shin yud zayin, and he writes to Ezriel Chaiken. Okay. And he writes the following, I was very happy to hear about the increase in the number of students. You know, this is the Rebbe we're talking about here. He's happy to hear that you've enrolled a lot of students, but it's not enough. I definitely will work to have more. Uh, more students and also of greater quality. Apparently, this was a school that was, uh, maybe there were two institutions or whatever, but he's serving both boys and girls, so the Rebbe wants more boys, more girls. "I want more students, better students." The Rebbe is happy with what he sees, but he wants more. Uh, they had been, they had been opening a, um... Where was this? This was in, uh, I think they say the location down here somewhere.

14:01 Speaker 2 Chaiken is Cleveland, no?

14:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Maybe. What's that? What's that Agadea thing? I don't know. Okay. Wherever this is, they were opening a Beis Rivkah, uh, for girls for the entire day. They wanted to make a full day Beis Rivkah. It's understood that this is urgent. We need to open this Beis Rivkah. Even though initially there could be problems, it might start off difficult. But I do want you to set things up in a way that doesn't cause machlokes. Now, here the Rebbe is not saying, "Don't open the school." He's saying, "Don't be a, don't be bullish. Don't, don't, don't be a, don't be a..." What am I looking for? Don't be a bull in a china shop. You don't have to walk in and upset everybody. There's a way to do this. I want you to set this up in a way that doesn't cause fights. Certainly, there are ways to calm down those who are concerned about Hasagos Kvool and wanna destroy your mosod. Especially since you tell me that the Rav supports the establishment of this mosod, there certainly are creative ways, political ways, intelligent ways to have a discussion, to pitch this in a way that's not gonna cause a fight. So the Rebbe is saying, "I'm not gonna let their concerns about Hasagos Kvool get in our way, but I am telling you, don't make arguments and find a way to do this in a way that creates peace and doesn't feel like we're coming in and blasting everybody else away." It says in the

15:20 Speaker 1 pasuk that the beginning will be in pain, and as the Baal Shem Tov explains after that, there'll be great rewards afterwards when the beginning starts painfully. Very great rewards. And it is known that there's a sicha from the Friediker Rebbe. When a person shines a flashlight in the street in the dark of night, a lot of people surround that light Now, that last sentence is a, is, is, is a beautiful comment on this entire discussion. Why, why do people worry about Hasagos Kvool? Why is everybody, uh, running in and starting to build new things? There, there, there's this-- There's an expression like this in English, which is, uh, flattery is the... What is it? Flattery is the, uh... No, um, mimicry is the highest form of flattery. How does it go? Something like that.

16:01 Speaker 2 It's, it's, um, not mimicry. It's a different word they use.

16:05 Speaker 1 Different word than mimicry. Yeah.

16:05 Speaker 2 Like, uh, when you copy someone, when you, uh-

16:07 Speaker 1 When you copy someone, it's a form of flattery. I-- The, the, the expression escapes my mind, but this is very much what the Friediker Rebbe is saying, is that when somebody-- You, you move into a town and you shine a light, everybody's gonna gather around, and that means that also other people are gonna come in and start shining their own lights, and you have to accept the fact that when you're spreading a lot of light, that's going to invite competition, and that's good because the reason why that competition is showing up is because you've given them a little bit of light in a dark place. Now they wanna come and add their own thing to it too. So-

16:31 Speaker 2 I think it's imitation. I think it's imitation is the-

16:33 Speaker 1 Imitation is the highest form of flattery? Maybe.

16:35 Speaker 2 Imitation. Yeah.

16:35 Speaker 1 Maybe imitation is the highest form of flattery. So, uh, something to tell people maybe as a strategy to help people stop getting so upset about potential Hasagos Kools is to remind them that the reason why there are so many opportunities now in their area is because they took the trouble to shine a flashlight in the dark. When people shine a flashlight in a dark street, people are going to come. And so this isn't an inyan of chasagas gul so much as it i- uh, so much as a compliment that, uh, that because you've shown th- because you shined the light so effectively, now you have competition, and that competition, as we saw in a previous letter, isn't really competition 'cause when it comes to ruchnius, there's enough work for everybody to do. Remember, we're not talking about businesses right now. We're not talking about jobs. We're strictly talking about chasagas gul and encroachment and competition in teaching Torah, and in this regard, we can always fall back on the Rambam who tells us there's no such thing and of course the Rebbe himself who says that when it comes to ruchnius, there's enough parnasas ruchnius for everybody. Uh, that's what we have right now. Uh, quick review of all of our letters. In our original letter we said that there's not an inyan for temchei timim to fight with each other, and temchei timim should not be poaching from one another. We mentioned that Rambam says there's no such inyan as actual halachik chasagas gul

17:36 Speaker 1 when it comes to chinuch, but certainly there is the idea that we don't wanna create bad feelings, so maybe that's why the Rebbe doesn't want poaching between tem-temchei timim or fights between temchei timim. We had a letter over here, uh, from the year Tuv Shin Lamed Ches where the Rebbe had said to buy a building from the federation or out from under the hands of the federation, get a, get the, get a hold of this building but only in a way that people won't blame us of chasagas gul because perceptions do matter. We had a letter here from the year Tuv Shin Lamed Zayin where the Rebbe had said that if there really is an argument about chasagas gul and chinuch, they should go to a Beth Din. We had a letter from Tuv Shin Yud Gimel where the Rebbe had said to somebody who was starting to give shiurim and farbrengens all around town and people were complaining that he was maaseh guv, uh, not to worry about that at all. Obviously, don't worry about . There certainly is, uh, there is parnasah. There's work to do and ruchnius for everybody, and nobody's gonna take anything from anybody else in that particular regard. We had a letter from Tuv Shin Tes Zayin where the Rebbe says that when it comes to opening a kindergarten next to another Haredi kindergarten, a Chabad kindergarten next to another Haredi school, that even though there is no inyan of chasagas gul, perceptions do matter and there's a way

18:38 Speaker 1 to do this strategically, and before opening it you should make sure you're not gonna upset anybody. And the final letter we saw was a letter to somebody trying to open a Beis Rivkah who was getting some pushback from people who said that it was a chasagas gul issue, and the Rebbe saying, "It's not. We're gonna open it, obviously, but you don't have to do it in a ridiculous way. You can do it in a way that makes people feel good about it and perhaps introduce them to this idea that when you shine a flashlight in a dark area, it makes people gather around and that you're just one of the people gathering around because somebody before you was kind enough to shine the flashlight." Okay. That's it.

19:05 Speaker 3 Rebbe, I wanted to just say I posted on, on, on the chat, but it looks like this, this Rav Israel, um, Heiken was from a place called Agadir, Morocco. There's there.

19:16 Speaker 1 That was the word I couldn't pronounce, Agadir.

19:18 Speaker 3 There's an article, there's an article, so it looks like there w- th- there must have been a Jewish community there. There's a cemetery there.

19:22 Speaker 1 Oh, look at that. S- that last letter about opening the Beis Rivkah's, uh, is, uh, is an issue, is a situation in Morocco. Okay? Thanks.

19:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, I, I wanted to add a few questions or a few comments. Uh, first of all, very interesting to see, I think it's in the letter to Kitrick, that the Rebbe's mentioning over there a concept of chasagas gul, ta'anas chasagas gul with temchei timim when Kitrick is doing something for Ohel Torah and supposedly Ohel Torah was founded be- on the Rebbe's instructions. To found, to, to found a mosad that, uh, it doesn't teach English and is different than temchei timim, the Rebbe basically fou- founds Ohel Torah and then when he goes to buy a building, said, "Oh, by the way, make sure there's no ta'ana of chasagas gul." So I just find it interesting, like, when the whole mosad is a chasagas gul creation, if you wanna look at it, of a ta'ana of chasagas gul, and underneath it all, I would also think maybe there's... It's strange for me for, to think this way, I don't know, maybe I'm completely out of line of thinking who was in charge of temchei timim, right? His brother-in-law, the Rashag, was in charge of temchei timim. So maybe there's a sensitivity there also between Ohel Torah and temchei timim, and that maybe also comes in the shlo bishmi part. Like, you know, like, I don't wanna, it's, it's too close, too close to home, this whole thing. I don't know. Maybe it's too, too, uh, bust up a dummy for some people, but I don't know.

20:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe.

20:36 Speaker 2 Whatever. Thought, thought number one. Um, the other question I had, the other things I had, I thought about was the difference between chasagas gul and ta'anas chasagas gul, right? Um, you know, there's, you see that there's a difference, right? In some places the Rebbe says it shouldn't be done, and with a ta'ana of chasagas gul you pointed out that sometimes the Rebbe says that somebody might complain about it, and sometimes the Rebbe says clearly that do it, don't do it in a way that there is chasagas gul like this. So that might be on, on the... Maybe like, for example, the one with, um, the shiurim, for example, with, um, with, uh, with, um, with, um, the Persmackin in Montreal, the shiurim that he's giving. So i- the question is, uh, is in chasagas gul. Why is it bevadai? He's not saying there's not even, it's anything there's no, nothing, couldn't even be a ta'ana. I would only think of it because nobody here is doing this for a business, right? When somebody's giving a shiur in a house, for sure there's no question of chasagas gul. When is there maybe a ta'ana or maybe some kind of a chasagas gul? When somebody's doing a business. I have a business, a school of business, and you're opening up a business, a school of business over here. So yeah, there could be a ta'ana, there could be a question of chasagas gul. You're taking away my business. You know, when it's shiurim in the house, what's

21:44 Speaker 2 chasagas gul? If someone perceives chasagas gul with a shiur in the house, then you're right, going back to what you said before about the big yetzer hara that a person has because they're so concerned that, oy voy voy, someone's taking away Torah, someone's giving Torah, that only I can give Torah. If somebody else gives Torah, then I don't know what it is. I think it's more related to ego, but not related to any... So there is bevadai chasagas gul 'cause it's not, nobody's making money off of this. So I just, you know, thought about the difference between the ta'anas chasagas gul and, uh, and not ta'anas chasagas gul being whether it's a business or not or, you know, or, or whether it's also the other point was whether it's a Lubavitch mosad or not. 'Cause temchei T- Ohel Torah is Lubavitch mosad, Ohel Torah temchei timim. When it comes to the Beis Rivkah or the other one, the Rebbe's saying, like, that there's a, there's another Gan Haredi. It's not another Lubavitch mosad. There's a Gan Haredi. It's another frum school, not a Lubavitch school, so there there might be a greater ta'ana. You know, chasagas gul. Here they're, they're saying there's gonna be a, there's gonna be a clear distinction, 'cause you're not dealing with fellow Chabadniks who's gonna have maybe a ta'ana of chasagas gul. They're gonna openly declare a chasagas gul 'cause you're Lubavitch, I'm not. You're on a whole different pathway. I don't know. These are my thoughts. A lot to

22:52 Speaker 2 say on this little topic, but thank you for listening.