האם אנו זקוקים למדינה כדי לשרוד?

00:00 Speaker 1 Okay, this is Igress. We are looking at a letter from exactly fifty years ago, kind of. That is, the letter's date is Yud Aleph Kislev, and it is not Yud Aleph Kislev. But if you look down here, it says that the Rebbe says, " Yud-- Gimmel Kislev." So the author had written the letter on Gimmel Kislev. So this is about fifty years ago, almost exactly fifty years ago, the letter was written or responded to, and it's a very interesting, very long letter. We're only gonna look at one letter today. It's about five pages long, I believe. But, uh, it's not difficult to get through. It's just the Rebbe has four or five ideas in this letter that are main shitas that he has in so many other letters, where he expresses really how the Rebbe views certain issues. And it's also written to a fairly interesting person. It's written to, uh, Mordechai Zipori. Um, any, any, uh, any real maven- mavinim in, uh, Israeli politics know Mordechai Zipori? You'd have to really know. He died in twenty seventeen. He was in the Likud Party, and for many years he was the, uh, the Minister of Communications. But before that he was in the Irgun. He got captured by the British. He was sent to Africa. He was, uh, in an African prison. He dug tunnels to escape the African prison, although I don't think he actually escaped the prison because they let him free and let him return in nineteen forty-eight. He joined the military,

01:03 Speaker 1 rose through the ranks and became a Tet Aloof, which honestly, I have no idea. The, the Internet tells me it might be a brigadier general. It might be like the lowest level of general. It might be something right below general. I don't know exactly, but he became a very high-ranked, uh, military officer in the Israeli army and then later on, uh, entered politics. He entered in Likud as, I think, the Deputy Minister of Defense and then went on to be the Minister of Communications. So pretty important guy in Israeli politics and in his-- and in the founding of Israel. He fought for Israel before nineteen forty-eight. He went to prison for it. And, uh, and he later on continued to fight for the freedom and safety of Israel for many years. Uh, the reason why he wrote to the Rebbe is because the Rebbe kind of started it. Right after the Yom Kippur War, the Rebbe sent out shluchim, uh, and not just shluchim. He asked any of the guests who were visiting for Yom Tov when they went back to Eretz Israel and anybody who had a chance to go to Eretz Israel. He told, he told many Lubavitch Hasidim, uh, many of his followers even who weren't Lubavitch Hasidim, he said, "I want you visiting the army bases. I want you talking to the soldiers and, uh, and making them feel good about what they've done. I want you to spread my messages to them." So the Rebbe sent a lot of shluchim

02:00 Speaker 1 to the army bases, and after he sent to the army bases, a lot of the leaders of these army bases wrote letters to the Rebbe saying, "Thank you." Uh, we have a lot of them in this volume of Igress, and a lot of them are short. The Rebbe will write back saying something like, "Thank you for your letter, and I'm glad that you appreciated our visit." In this case, the person who wrote back to the Rebbe, who was already a brigadier general near the top of the Israeli army at the time, wrote back to the Rebbe and he asked him a question. The question doesn't actually show up in our letter until the second page. Let me just scroll down and show it to you. We should know the question going in, I think. Maybe it's on the third page. There we go. Down here in Gimmel is the time the Rebbe quotes his question. Here is his question. He wrote about the mahusae ruchnius shalamenu. He wrote a real general question to the Rebbe. He says, "I wanna know what is the spiritual, uh, what is the spiritual foundation? What is the mahus? What is the spiritual identity of our people? Ketzeh diyukimeh vegeraleh. What keeps our people going? What will, uh, what will determine our people's lot? What will determine what happens to our people? Umah chayevim meriyus man higav lases bazen. What should the teachers of the Jewish people and those who are leaders of the Jewish people be doing with that

03:02 Speaker 1 information?" So this is what he asked the Rebbe. He asked the Rebbe a big general question. What is a Jew? What is Judaism? What keeps Jews alive? What keeps Judaism alive? What is the central part of all this? And as a leader among the Jewish people, what is my role? And the Rebbe writes him a very long answer. And in this letter we have, uh, we have so many segas. So without any more, uh, introduction, let's jump into the letter to Mordechai Zipori. The Rebbe writes, "Shalom Ubraham. Kibat metam mechtavam yem gimel Kislev." I wr-- got your letter from the third day of Kislev. Thank you very much for the nice things that you wrote, that you, uh, that you appreciated, uh, that you appreciate my letters and the things that were sent to you. "Uvelashoneh," in your, in your words, the thing that you liked is "Tchushateva ladas." It's really good to know "ki kiyamishutus g-- shutus gero ve'achrayus ad adis ben bnei amenu basher heim sham." He said it's really nice to hear that we have a certain, uh, achrayus ad adis, is a, is a mutual responsibility. The, the, he likes the idea that the Jewish people are all one, that there's a partnership between the Jews in America and the Jews in Israel, and the partnership between the Rebbe and the soldiers. He liked hearing from the people who visited the base and from the letters that they'd received at the base, uh, that the Jewish people are all one and

04:01 Speaker 1 that we're all in this together. So he appreciated that. And by the way, modern Israeli soldiers also appreciate that. This isn't new. We appreciate the solidarity. The Rebbe writes back, starts off, "You're wrong about solidarity." "Tigbasi shider lesh teras achas is mesiva ei baze." You should know that Chasidus adds something to what you said. "Chai safa mahutis," and it's an important addition. "Asher kol aminu basher heim sham. Lo rak shutvim gam heim binyanehem." We're not just partners according to Chasidus in the things that we do. "Sheshutus peru shnei anashim nifradim mishtafim beynynecha." Meaning that it's not just two people who are completely separate have decided to become one over a certain issue, that we all decided we cared about the State of Israel, we all decided we care, care about the land of Israel, and even though we're separate people, we're all uniting over the safety of Israel. It's not what's happening. "Ki im b'lashon Rashabinu Hazaken miyasod toras chasidus Chabad," in the words of the Alter Rebbe who established Chasidus Chabad, "Heim keima achsh leima." The Jewish people are one body. "Shkul misafkum yachad liyes lachadim keachad." We are all completely one, joined together to be one actually. We're completely one. So we're not partners, we're one body. "Ein sheimei baruch hem achas." We are all limbs of one form. "Vav shi eish felukim meihim." Even though it's true we're different kinds of limbs. "Atzta atzta min atza. Atza el atza." We can be really different. "Lashon atza v'rasheihem ad sheim imecha." Some of

05:07 Speaker 1 us are the heads and some of us are the water drawers. "Tzadik beichusom vekamus gam shneim." We have qualitative and quantitative differences. "Aval kulam mashlim ze et ze," but we all complete each other. "Ach sh'dach ga'al yedei heyusum la'achadim keachad." Become-- and when we are completely one, "kol echad echav nasah evar mguf achad." We are all part of one body, limbs of one body. "Leshon bin Hazaken ein shleimus derech b'liti raglayim." And we can't be complete without each other. As the Alter Rebbe says, "There's no real shleimus to the head if it doesn't have the help of the feet." So the Rebbe starts off by saying, "I, I, I, I received your letter saying that you appreciate that we're all in this together as partners, but you should know we're not partners, we're completely one. There's an absolute oneness between the Jewish people. We're not just getting together over a solid issue." And, uh, this is, I think, very noteworthy, especially in the time that we're in right now, when three hundred thousand, I think was the estimate, two hundred and fifty thousand, three hundred thousand Jews got together to rally over Israel. That really wasn't what was happening according to the Rebbe. The Rebbe would say that they weren't rallying over something and joining together. They're already one. They found a reason to all meet in one place at one time, but the Jewish people are one whether or not they have a common cause. We're intrinsically one. And so the Rebbe says it's

06:04 Speaker 1 stronger than the fact that we found something to rally around. It's that we're one from the beginning. And that's why when other people rally around, I think things generally get violent and things generally fall apart because other people are rallying around a dover. We're not rallying around a dover. We're simply showing the fact that we really are one, and that's a different kind of rally. In any event, "B'negel asher lasabaism mechtaveh," regarding the questions that you put in your letter- The Rebbe opens up by saying, starts up by saying, "I don't like a lot of your questions." "I'm sorry," says the Rebbe. I wanna start off, uh, give an introduction with a central point. In the lone language, it's well known that God did not create anything in this world for no purpose. This certainly applies to a person. That the final line, the, the bottom line of that idea, therefore, a person's job, their principal job, is to ask questions and find answers about things that pertain to their in this world. People have a lot of theoretical questions that have nothing to do with them, and the Rebbe starts off by saying, "Your theoretical questions that have nothing to do with your job in this world aren't necessarily worth asking." And, uh, that is a really interesting point. You don't see that in a lot of places, you know, especially, especially in my field, uh, lately, where I'm, I'm going around talking to college students and to, and to young people who have

07:17 Speaker 1 some very theoretical questions. A lot of them really don't pertain to their lives. They bother them, but that's the The ask questions that aren't pertinent. The ask questions that are pertinent. So the Rebbe says, "Let's start off by saying your questions that you don't need to get the job done don't really need to be answered." What is your job in this world? Simple. It is to spread good. If you wanna know what that sounds like in a slightly different way, what does it mean to spread good? That is to emphasize the soul over the body. That's to emphasize spirituality over physicality. That's a Jew's job, and this is one sentence. Anybody ever asks you the meaning of life, you have in one sentence from the Rebbe the meaning of life. That is to spread good, which is defined as soul over body and . And of course, the most important thing is what you actually do. Get stuff done. As we see, uh, as we see explicitly. It's true that it's, uh, the the actions that you do should be based on a clear thought, on clear ideas, but at the same time, the most important thing is what you actually do. So this is a person's job in this world, is to spread good, to emphasize spirituality, and to get stuff done. And Hashem wants that this should all be a choice, that we should choose to do the right thing, and it should be with our not by force. And God gave us

08:31 Speaker 1 all the possibilities, all the abilities, capabilities to have this As God says in the Torah, "I placed before you life," and, uh, and He doesn't say life, but life and good and death and evil. And He goes on to say not just a guarantee, but also a request. It's a guarantee that you will choose life, but also a plea from God that you will choose life, as you'll see in, I guess. Okay. From this point, what are the questions that you're asking that are most urgent that I actually need to answer? They're going to be the ones that are applicable to action. And only in free time, after you've finished all the other important stuff, you can only think about the stuff that isn't pertinent to your life once you've, once you have free time. And we know what the Rebbe means when he says, "Once you have free time." The Rebbe does not give us free time. So the big questions that you have about, uh, life and the universe and everything that don't pertain to your role and to your, to your, uh, your, uh, place in the world and they just don't matter all that much. And you can think about them when you have free time, which you're never going to have. I-I'm adding that, but it's true, which you're never going to have. So a lot of these big theoretical questions that bother people, they do need to take a step back and ask themselves, "Is my asking the question?"

09:50 Speaker 1 How can you tell the difference? If the question pertains to my job in this world, then my asking the question. If my question pertains to general interest, then it's my asking the question. Curiosity, we always celebrate curiosity in theory, but in practice, we're reading a letter from the Rebbe, and the Rebbe's telling us curiosity sometimes is worthwhile. Curiosity is worthwhile when it could lead to . If it can't lead to get your curiosity out of the way. So based on that idea, the Rebbe says, "I'm going to address only your questions that matter." And therefore, we don't know what questions he asked that didn't matter. We only know the ones that the Rebbe decided to answer. I looked around a lot. There are no other records of this letter besides the one we have. It's been printed in his and also in, uh, um, but they're just direct prints. We don't have a lot of information on what, uh, on he, on what he might have written. Okay. Uh, so now we're gonna shift to something a little bit different in what the Rebbe did, so let's just review. The first thing the Rebbe told him, which is the is that we are not partners. We are not-- We don't share a mutual responsibility. The Jewish people are not united over a cause. We are not united over a cause. We are intrinsically one, and we're not united over anything. We're one before we have any cause to be united over. The second thing is

10:50 Speaker 1 questions are great, but only when they have to do with getting the job done. Don't forget what your job is. It is to spread good and emphasize . Now the Rebbe goes on to a different topic as he begins to answer the questions. Certainly in your field as well, in the army. You know how to solve things that you're not sure about. The way that you normally solve problems is you think about the fact whether there was whether there was in the past something just like this. When you're trying to solve a new problem, you look for precedent. Did we, did we encounter this problem before, and was it solved in that way before? That's how we do everything, he says, in the military, and he's gonna say in a second in Refuah. The way that we figure out whether something's going to work is by looking at what has worked in the past. We look at how we solved the problem back then. And then we have an analysis of how well it worked. This is something that in science we call efficacy. That is, if we look at, if we look at a drug and we see how well it worked over time, is it a, is it an effective drug? And if it's effective, we ask how effective is it? This applies to anything really. This has to do with the strategies of war and peace. This has to do with healing the soul and also healing the body. This is the

11:58 Speaker 1 way that we do things. We test methods, and we ask ourselves, "How well did this method work historically?" We base all of the things that we're doing on an investigation of what happened previously, and on the tests that were had previously. As is said, there's no wise person like someone who has been through stuff. And the, uh, litmus test, the main litmus test in all of these investigations, what do we look at mainly? Outcomes. We really wanna know the outcome. We asked, did this strategy work in a certain situation? Did this drug work in a certain patient trial? Did it only partially work? Or did it not work at all? This is how we analyze evidence. And only as an assistant, only as a side point do we try to figure out the mechanism. This is true in drug trials, by the way. If we find a drug and w- and it, and it works, and, uh, we test it again and again under multiple settings, we get to, you know, phase one, two, and three trials, and it works and works and works, we're going to approve the drug. As a side point, we're going to try to figure out the mechanism. But even if we can't figure out the mechanism, we're still gonna approve the drug once we see that it's safe and, uh, sa-safe and effective. Uh, safe and effective is the main, is the main bar, and that's what the Rebbe saying here, is that, uh, whether it, um only in

13:16 Speaker 1 a way of, uh, as a side point, as a help. We try we try to figure out why it worked or didn't work, and that's sort of a side point. Even if for whatever reason we don't ever figure out the reason why it works. Or we find a reason and it just doesn't make sense and we don't like it. That doesn't really make a difference for what we'll do in the future. Nonetheless, we are going to use a strategy that works even if we don't know the reason why it works, and we're going to use a medicine that works even if we're not comfortable with the reason why it works. Especially when it has succeeded again and again, over and over again in different situations. So the more we do the trial, the more times we run the trial, the better it works. This, by the way, could be in a science textbook. This is exactly how scientists see evidence. So this is, uh, this is brilliant and exactly how we, how we decide whether something, something's going to work. So repeated trials, a focus on efficacy and interest in the mechanism, but not necessarily is that active. The main thing we're looking for is does it work? So precedent and efficacy are king, even if we don't get why things work, especially if they work repeatedly. Now let's use this approach, says the Rebbe, to answer your question. This is a i-- this is an approach that is accepted in all fields. In every

14:30 Speaker 1 discipline. Ask a Yid, ask a goy, ask anybody, "Is this the way that we analyze data?" This is the way that we analyze data. Everybody agrees. Therefore, we can also use it to answer your questions, because this is the way that we answer all questions. Now, what were your questions? You wanna know what is the, what is the ? What is the spiritual essence of our people? What makes our people last? What makes our people survive and, and have a, and have a future? And what should the Jewish people who are in charge be doing? And if we have that question, we're asking what makes the Jew tick? What keeps the Jewish people alive? We should use the same scientific method that we use to decide whether a drug works or whether a milit-military strategy works. Let's look at history. And now the Rebbe takes us on a journey through history in far more detail than he usually does in a letter. I, I blocked my clock here. I hope we have time. It's just the Rebbe goes in so much more detail than he usually does, and he also uses beautiful . The Rebbe says, Let's bring out the book of our memories. Let's bring out our history and take a look at what happened in the past. Uh, when it comes to our-- when it comes to the past of our people as individuals and also as a nation itself, uh, the, there's been constant changes. There really isn't a constant when it

15:46 Speaker 1 comes to how we survive best, whether we're having a good time in a good time in when it comes to ourselves, when it comes to our environment. There was a period of time where we did very well in . We had a Beis Hamikdash, and it was standing on its hill and r- and it was in, in we were doing very well as well. We had a period of time where internationally things were going well. We had a period of incredible prosperity under Shlomo HaMelech. All of the kings of the land, they asked to see Shlomo HaMelech, and, uh, the Rebbe says this is what's called a good international relations. This is good international relations at the time, and, um, that-- So the Jewish people survived under great great um, and great international relations. Also we also survived in Galus, in the terrible darknesses. We survived the destruction of the first and second Beis Hamikdash. Does anybody know that word? I had to look it up. It means the, it means the Crusades. Uh, the Inquisition, excuse me. It means the Inquisition. Inquisition is 'cause you're inquiring into something. I didn't know. Anyway, the days of the Inquisition. The Holocaust. We survived. We didn't-- We died, but we also survived. The Jewish people also persist under terrible circumstances, so clearly you can't say that a, a good is what makes the Jewish people live. You can't say a good is what makes the Jewish people live. You can't say a, uh, you can't really say

17:05 Speaker 1 that a, that, that, that, that a good international relations is what keeps people around. Which, by the way, is what ninety percent of Jews seem to think at the moment, is that making friends with the nations is the only thing that keeps us around. Says the Rebbe, "Sometimes we survive with-- while, while being good friends with the nations, and sometimes we survive while being at terrible odds with the nations." These are not things that, uh, that are tried and true methods of us surviving. Excuse me. So they're clearly not the thing keeping us alive. There is only one consistent way that we have done well repeatedly. There's only one thing that's kept us alive, and everything else we've at some times done without. That is practical mitzvahs. That's the only thing that's kept us going. Keeping them. Keeping them according to the Torah of Hashem and according to the that we got from our forefathers. Everything else. Now, look at what he says in parentheses here, especially slowly. Take a look at what he says in parentheses here. This is what I was talking to you about before the shiur started. All other everything else, including statehood, including the land that you live in, including the language that you speak, the culture, all the other things that are seen to be essential to Judaism at some times we did not have them, and we still survived. Sometimes we had them and sometimes we didn't have them at all, and we still survived. That show-- that

18:31 Speaker 1 demonstrates that they are not necessary for the fundamental existence of our people. as a nation, as a group, or as individuals. We survive as a nation without a land. We survive as a nation without a language. We survive as a nation without a culture. These things are not fundamental to what it is to be a Jew, uh, or what it is to keep a Jew alive Because if they were, then the moment we didn't have them, they would disappear, and that's not what we've seen historically. Historically, we've lived without these things. The only thing we've never lived without is mitzvahs, and now he's going to prove that. Huh? If we page through the history of the Jewish people, I can't clear my throat today. Every single group, every single sect, every single idea that decided to leave Mitzvas Misayas and not take, not, not take practical mitzvahs as seriously, either they got , either they got lost among the nations, and we don't know about them anymore, they're just not ours anymore. They became Goyim, and we don't know where they are. Or they came back to doing Torah mitzvahs, and they folded back into the Jewish people. But there are only two possible outcomes for people who abandon mitzvahs, and none of them are that they continue to survive. When a Jew stops doing mitzvahs, either they are lost among the Goyim or they start doing mitzvahs again. But that is not-- The only thing we've ever done that's not sustainable is life without

19:50 Speaker 1 mitzvahs. Life without a land, we've done. It's sustainable. Life without a language, we've done. It's sustainable. Life without everything else we've done, it's sustainable. The only thing that has never sur-- that we've never survived without even a sect of us is mitzvahs. The Rebbe says this goes all the way back to Har Sinai. Forty days after Har Sinai, there were people who decided not to do mitzvahs. They built an EglaZav. And later on, even under the time that we were in time, when we were living under each person under their vine and under their, under their tree, there were people worshiping the Baal. There were Tzadokim, there were Baisusim, there were all sorts of sects that didn't wanna keep mitzvahs, and where are they nowadays? Uh, they don't survive anymore. The maskana is simple, is that those people, these ideas, they don't exist anymore. Somebody, uh, has their thing on and should, uh-- Let me just get that. Yeah. The maskana is very simple. If you wanna know what keeps us around as a nation or as a group or as an individual, it is entirely dependent on keeping , on keeping practical mitzvahs. That's what keeps us around and nothing else. Says the Rebbe, "The job of anybody who has influence over other people, the job of the leaders, the job of the rabbis and the teachers, is to strengthen that," and that specifically. Gonna read outside a little here so we can go a little faster. Uh, since we said earlier that we're

21:22 Speaker 1 all one body, if you do strengthen this in one corner, this strengthens the entire Jewish body because we are not just partners, we're all completely one. So the job of leaders is to strengthen mitzvahs specifically, not necessarily to strengthen those side points 'cause the side points are not what's keeping us alive. The Rebbe says, as I said earlier, says the Rebbe. We're gonna summarize this paragraph too. Uh, when it comes to something that works, when we do find a tried and tested and true drug or a tried, trusted, and tested and true, uh, military strategy, it doesn't matter if we don't understand exactly why it works. It doesn't matter if I can't put that in my sefer and I don't get why mitzvahs are the main thing that has kept us going. What matters is that it's the only thing that has proven efficacy. The only thing with proven efficacy, uh, in keeping the Jewish people together and alive is Torah and mitzvahs. And specifically applies to keeping the Jewish people alive where they are. That is . If you wanna know what will keep the Jewish people alive, the holy people in their holy land, it is not going to be a na-- it's not going to be nationalism, and it's not going to be language, and it's not going to be culture. What's going to keep you alive in your land, uh, especially you alive in your land, but Jews alive everywhere, is the thing that's kept us alive forever, which is observance

22:27 Speaker 1 of mitzvahs. The only thing that really helps is keeping mitzvahs. "I could expand upon this more," says the Rebbe, "but I'm sure you understand me, and I'm sure and I hope that you do, and it should be God's will, you should understand the spirit of what I'm writing, so you understand the meaning of my words," 'cause I guess there's more than one way to read this letter. "I hope you'll understand that I'm writing to you in the spirit of mutual responsibility of every single Jew and, uh, every single one of us," the Rebbe says, "It should be-- everybody should act in line of what's going on with Hanukkah, which is coming up soon, which is now Hanukkah." That every single day we increase in light with . So a, a very quick estimate of the top points here, and then with whatever time we have left, we can talk a little bit about them. The Rebbe starts off by saying that we are not shufpan at all. We're not partners of the Jewish people. We are completely one, and that's different than people who are separate uniting over a cause. We're all completely one intrinsically. The Rebbe then said that we only really need to ask questions about jobs that need to get done, and the job that a Jew needs to get done is spreading good in the world, and that, uh, by definition is and . The Rebbe then says, "When I'm answering your question about what makes the Jewish people tick and

23:30 Speaker 1 what keeps us around, the only real way to analyze that is to ask what has worked in the past and how well it has worked." We look at precedent, and we look at efficacy. And even if we don't understand why things work, if something repeatedly works over and over again, that becomes the, uh, that becomes the main thing that keeps that thing going. So the Rebbe says, "Let's look at the Jewish people." We've had times where we have, uh, where we've been-- where we've had all sorts of different, uh, situations that we've had or not had. We've had the land, not had the land, had the language, not had the language, had, uh, wealth, not had wealth. These things are clearly not our kium because we survived without them. If we wanna find our kium, the thing that keeps us around, we have to ask ourselves what it is that we never survived without. Uh, what factor is there that if we remove it, the Jewish people simply cease? And the Rebbe says that's mitzvahs, and he brings two proofs that it's mitzvahs. Proof number one is we always had mitzvahs, and we didn't always have those other things. And proof number two is that any sect of Jews that dropped mitzvahs, they suddenly disappeared, showing that this is a-- this actually-- it's amazing. It's an amazing scientific trial because it's the only factor we can find among the Jewish people that we never survived without it, and when you remove it, we never survive

24:26 Speaker 1 the moment that you remove it. It's very interesting because this is, uh, this is clearly the key. So the Rebbe says, "Therefore, what is it our job of the Jewish leaders to strengthen? Clearly, the thing that keeps us around, which is mitzvahs." I mentioned as an aside when this year started, uh, but although it's not on-- gonna be on the recording, I mentioned it sort of in our, in our pre-shared ramble, that, uh, that if you ever wanted to s-- if you ever wanted proof of, uh, of the Rebbe's non-Zionist but Zionist position, I think this is the letter you would pull it from. Uh, one of the key ideas of Zionism is that one of the main factors that makes Jews survive, the Jewish survival is dependent on Jewish nationhood, on Jews existing in a state. And that, uh, and that having a state, uh, regardless of the state of that state, as long as there is a Jewish state, that is one of the things that will ensure Jewish survival. Uh, the Rebbe is saying in this letter that's kind of ridiculous. It's kind of ridiculous to say that the Jewi-- that the Jews will only survive if they have a state. The Jews have survived without a state, and, uh, the evidence suggests that a state is not what keeps us around. What keeps us around is keeping mitzvahs. Now, it's great to have a state, and you don't see any anti-Zionism in this letter. You don't really see anti-Zionism from the

25:23 Speaker 1 Rebbe anywhere. But to be very gung-ho about the idea that what makes a Jew a Jew and what makes a Jew survive is a piece of land, is something that I think the Rebbe knocks in a lot of different places, and in n- no place more than in, than in this letter, where the Rebbe says that if we're really analyzing what has kept the Jews around, it has never been a culture, it's not even been a nationalism, it's not been a language. It's been simple observance of Torah and mitzvahs. Okay, that's it.

25:45 Speaker 2 I have a meeting I have to run to, but I just wanna, just wanna make one comment, uh, before I exit. And is it possible to split this between spiritual and physical survival? I know you're probably not gonna agree with that or like that concept, but you're talking about the only thing that's kept the Jews alive has been Torah and mitzvahs. Go tell that to six million people, right? So, so talk about all the people that are murdered because they were Jews who kept a lot of Torah and a lot of mitzvahs, and yet they were slaughtered. Now, is it because other people didn't, or are we say-- are we talking about spiritual survival or physical survival? So when you're talking about physical survival, there may be a place to say that for physical survival, you need a state. For physical survival, you need an army. For physical survival, you need a language and a culture and whatever. Spiritual, you have nothing and the state of Israel is worth nothing if you don't have Torah and mitzvahs, I agree.

26:26 Speaker 1 I know you have to run. I have two possible answers to that. One of them is that the Rebbe says, uh, also b'tor yachid. So he says that the survival of the Jewish people as a nation, as a klutzah, and also as a yachid, as the individual, is intend-- is, uh, is, is determined upon nothing but Torah and mitzvahs. So I think that if he says individual, you've got to assume that's the life of the individual. The other thing is, while I will say, yeah, definitely, we did not survive the Holocaust, six million people died in it, we also have had periods of time where we didn't have the, we didn't have the land of Israel, and we were surviving better than we are now, if we're talking pure goshmis. We had the, uh, we had, we had periods of time, especially in Arab countries back when they used to like us. There was a golden age in Spain. Um, I think fewer, I think fewer Jews died during the Spanish Golden Age than they are right now in modern Israel. So the litmus test can't really be whether we're being killed by our enemies. I think the litmus te- litmus test needs to be, are we surviving? And, uh, the only common thread, probably mitzvahs. Probably mitzvahs.