How Do I Toivel a Keurig?

00:00 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Halacha Podcast, Lemaan Yishmeu, with Harav Yosef Yeshaya Brown, Maharad da Asra and a member of the Crown Heights-based din. This podcast is brought to you by the Ask the Rav platform in partnership with Lemaan Yilmedu, the premier institute for practical Halacha learning.

00:20 Speaker 2 So here comes a very interesting question that I got from a Rav in Eretz Yisrael. Uh, this Rav wrote to me that he heard from someone that in his experience he saw a lot of people that made big events when someone in the family turned seventy or eighty and they had the whole entire extended family there, and then unfortunately a lot of negative things happened. He was also told that this is something you should be careful about. The Gemara says that if somebody managed to obtain a bunch of property that was left by an individual who passed away without any inheritors, usually a convert doesn't have inheritors, and he got this rich wealth, this abundance of wealth, and he wants to keep all this stuff, he doesn't want to lose his money, the right thing to do is to buy a Sefer Torah. Rashi says it's a very strange thing. People talk about it, that a person got so much money without any effort. Therefore, it doesn't last. And therefore, if he buys a Sefer Torah, it's a mitzvah that will make it last. So the argument was when people talk it's not a good thing, things don't last. To do something which could cause a ayin hara, a negative eye, like making such a big birthday party, making a big event when someone was cured after he was sick, make a big seudah, big bash, is not a smart thing. And the question he asked me was, "Is this something you need to be

01:42 Speaker 2 concerned about or not?" And my response to him was, it's important to make a big event, a public event to thank Hashem, the-- as long as the most, most primary purpose will be l'shabeach, l'hodes or l'halel, to praise Hashem. There's really no problem whatsoever of ayin hara. Al tiftach pecha veshon. One shouldn't open their mouth in such a negative way. We have a general rule by-- with a lot of things. It's questionable if it applies to ayin hara, but it's another discussion. Mandale kapitle kadinan. If someone is not worried, then Hashem is-- If you're not particular, Hashem won't be particular with you either. And the reason why it is not really a concern, the idea of a seudah, a meal of thanksgiving to Hashem, is indeed the purpose is to publicize the miracles of Hashem. We have a Korban in the Torah, a special Korban called Korban Todah, and the purpose of this Korban is a Korban of thanksgiving. Its ultimate goal is to publicize the miracle. The mefarshim say, the Sefer HaNoah, Abarbanel, a lot of them say that they would actually-- The, uh, sh-- The, the mitzvah of the Korban is to bring with forty challahs, and the reason you bring forty different challahs is in order to invite your relatives and friends, 'cause you can't finish so much. You have to finish it all in such a short time, leyum v'laila, day and night. So you invite your friends, make a big party. You'll thank Hashem and praise Hashem publicly. Like it

03:08 Speaker 2 says in Tehillim, "Lecha ezbach zevach todah v'shem Hashem ekra." Sacrifice, zevach todah, sacrifice of thanksgiving. I'll do this negdo no lehkol ha'am. I'll do this in front of the entire nation. I'm publicizing Hashem's miracle. Avraham Avinu made a big party to publicize the miracle that he had with Yitzchak. Vayaas Avraham mishteh gadol. The reason why there's no concern of ayin hara, it could be because with a Korban Todah it's not something which is supernatural. It is a great miracle from Hashem. It doesn't go outside of nature. Ayin hara does apply even in regular things, but there's less of a concern on ayin hara with something which is not an abnormal, unusual kind of nes. And if you're doing it to publicize Hashem, you don't have to worry about it. Besides for the fact, since the purpose is hoda'ah, it's a-- thanking Hashem, it's a mitzvah. Shomer mitzvot le'eit haveirah. You have nothing to worry when you're doing a mitzvah. The nes itself is supposed to happen secretly. You're not supposed-- When-- A person wants to do a nes to a person at the time of the miracle, if you make a lot of noise, the miracle might not happen. Or publicize the miracle per se without the thanks to Hashem is also a problem. But when you're talking about publicizing the miracle for thanksgiving to Hashem, there's nothing wrong with that. The sa-- In the Gemara, we have an amora called Rabbi Avu who was, was concerned in the Gema-- He's actually the one that

04:34 Speaker 2 talks about, in the Gemara, about ayin hara, and he himself made a party, a meal of thanksgiving when Absholom was cured. And you can't tell me that Korban Todah is different. Korban Todah is a mitzvah in the Torah. The mitzvah in the Torah is to bring the Korban. There's no mitzvah to make a meal. That's not part of the mitzvah. It's just a practical thing. In order to finish those forty challahs, most likely you're going to make a meal all and bring all your friends. It says in the mefarshim that this is a reason, but it's not part of the mitzvah. In Tehillim and also says, "Yitbchu zivchei sodah," sacrifice, the thanksgiving sacrifice. "Ve'sappru mai seberini," you will relate Hashem's miracles. Talking about a meal when someone turns seventy, Poskim actually talk about the importance of making such a meal when a person is seventy. They even discuss the possibility of making Shehecheyanu. Any meal of thanksgiving is brought in Poskim and, and, and in Chazal. We have a pasuk that says, "Sichu bechol uflosef," talk about Hashem's wonders. "Hodi'u be'am ha'li losef," relate these things publicly. And not only general things that are miracles that Hashem does, personal miracles Hashem does to me. "Od Hashem oed befi uvesoch rabim ahalelenu." I praise Him in public. "Zok de'evenezer." I want the entire rab, the multitudes of people should know about this. Another pasuk, "L'maan asapna kol tilasecha beshanah ve'asiyan okilu yeshuechasecha." If you look in the Radak, the Radak says there, "When I'm safe from

05:56 Speaker 2 my enemies, asapna, I'm gonna relate this publicly." Bo-- Another pasuk, "Bo yushivun asapna kol yir'a lekir mashua asu lanafshi." I'm gonna relate to all God-fearing people what Hashem did to me. Vayishma Shavas ivayaneini Hashem, listen to my praise, misarti tzedek bekol rov, and I spoke about this publicly. Lo hichaleti chaz kanamicha, I didn't hold this back from a large crowd. Zog d'nedak, I'm in a large crowd to say all the great kindness that Hashem did to me. So many pesukim we have like that. The actual pesukim that talk about karbon toyah talk about benching g'mol, and it says in the pesukim of benching g'mol, v'reimu bekal ham, you thank Hashem in public, which is the whole idea of g'mol. But it's not only because of the mitzvah of benching g'mol when something unless happens. It's-- there's the mitzvah, but there's also the general concept behind the mitzvah, the rationale of the mitzvah. Ei mikre et nipshud is a simple meaning of the pasuk, to thank Hashem. The Gemara that was mentioned before, that if somebody obtained a lot of property, you should do a mitzvah. You see from there, on the contrary, that when you do a mitzvah, you don't have to worry if ayin hara. So if you're making a sudas mitzvah, any meal that a person doesn't do just for friendship and happiness, but to praise Hashem, to publicize a mitzvah, publicize a miracle, that's called a sudas mitzvah. We have a chazal, a special meal that people would make when they had

07:15 Speaker 2 a baby, when the baby was born, for the pidion haben, a kiddush for a girl. There's-- nobody's ever worried about ayin hara. Sfarim talk all about a special yom tov they made in different places. They made a yom tov because a miracle happened, and to publicize the miracle, they would even call it a Purim. Um, a Purim of this particular town. It's a Purim for a community. It's a Purim for a private person. I know some people are worried about ayin hara. I don't know what, where, what, where, what-- I can't understand their reason. On the contrary, when you're making a suda, the suda takes away the ayin hara. It's actually brought in Yeshua's Yaakov that when the Chazal tells whenever Hashem does a miracle himself, and he has to ded-deduct some of his merits in order to do the miracle. But if everybody knows about the miracle, the merits are not deducted because he gets extra merit because it was a kiddush Shem Shomayim. So when you're making a suda sayida, you're publicizing the miracle, you're actually gaining, not losing. And if a person makes a suda when he's seventy years old, it's a special thing. If he talks divrei Torah, he talks to kindness, Hashem, it's a beautiful thing. There's nothing wrong with it. We find that, that Rav Yosef, when he was sixty, he made a special meal, a Yom Tov with Rabbonon. If a person is doing Hashem Shomayim, I can't see anything wr-wrong with it. Some people didn't wanna make

08:28 Speaker 2 a meal when they turned a certain age because they're worried that people should know their age. Okay, that's a whole different story. The Rebbe, our Rebbe, that's the most important thing. That's a Meiser Rav. We saw an, uh, an action of the Rebbe in public. The Rebbe made special public events when he turned sixty and seventy. Besides for all of that, today's day and age, turning seventy is not something so unusual you have to worry about ayin hara, so there's really nothing wrong with that. I wanna move on to another question which we get a lot of times, and that's specifically about toiveling electric dishes, and within electric dishes, specifically about electric utensils, about a Keurig machine. So lately, there's a lot of electric keilim. It's very prevalent. Poskim maintain that it all have to be toiveled, and they have to be immersed in a mikvah. Now, a lot of these electric utensils, if you read the label, it says if you immerse it in water, it will get ruined. That doesn't mean you don't have a mitzvah to fill this keilim. Usually, we recommend to people, I tell people usually I don't have insurance as a rabbi to make sure that their dishes won't be ruined, but I could tell them that if-- from my experience, if you dry it very, very well, you leave it to air dry for a couple of days, leave it out in the sun, some people put rice in it, it will function normally, and that's what I've

09:41 Speaker 2 done to all my electric utensils. Now, some of these things, this will actually get ruined in water, or the water can't reach all parts of the appliance. So what do you do then? Some suggest there's a mitzvah to toivel keilim, and if you can't do it, then there's no such mitzvah. You're, you're being held back from doing the mitzvah. That is not the mainstream opinion. We don't follow that opinion. If you can't do the mitzvah, then just don't use this dish. Others suggest just take the keili, give it as a gift to a non-Jew, and then borrow from him. So the halacha of immersing dishes is a, a dish that belonged to a non-Jew and now belongs to a Jew, and it went over a transferred ownership. If it's still in the possession of the non-Jew, you're just borrowing it from him. There's no halacha to-- you need to toivel it. So what we could do, we could give it as a gift to a goy, and then we could borrow it from him. So we could sit in-- We c-- It's as if we're using his dish, and it's exempt from immersing. But this is a very short-term solution. Because let's talk practically speaking. You're borrowing it. This is a long-term borrowing, which is going on forever. It's actually gonna stay in the Jew's possession, and therefore it really would need tevila. What can be otherwise done? We-- If we have a Jew who's an omen, a professional, he knows how to take the

10:57 Speaker 2 appliance and take it apart and put it back together. Once he takes it apart and puts, puts it back together, we consider this is a utensil made by a Jew, and therefore it doesn't need to be toiveled. Now, this is something only if an omen, a professional does this. Something that could be done by an amateur, that doesn't qualify, that doesn't exempt the item from tevila. So that's j-- a general statement about our urns and all our electric dishes. And now we'll move on to the Keurig machine, which is a coffee maker, which is a much more serious issue. And now there it's impossible to toivel. The water will never enter the area which needs to be toiveled. What are our choices? So we-- There are-- Let, let's give it a bit of background here. There's a lot of different reasons why electric keilim-- arguments why electric keilim might not have to be toiveled. Some pe-people wanna say it's mechubal lekarkei. It's connected to the ground. It's made to be used with the ground as you connect it to the wall. There's no other way to use it. The Poskim talk about mechubal lekarkei, pots that you connect to the oven, but the pots could be used independently. Here, you cannot use it without connecting it to the wall. On the other hand, you're not mamash connecting it. You're just connecting a wire. The wire is not mamash connected. It's just stuck into, into an outlet. So these arguments for and against. Some want to

12:18 Speaker 2 say that when-- Not that because it's mechubal hakarka, which is a very weak argument. Even mechubal hakarka attached to the ground will need to be toveled. Some want to say, "No, when you-- every time you stick in the plug into the wall, it's considered made by a Jew. The dish was done, made by a non-Jew, and then I finished it off, I plugged it in." And therefore, some actually suggest in general, if somebody even does toveled such dishes, they should do without a beracha. The other argument we mentioned that if it's gonna get ruined, maybe it doesn't need to be toveled to begin with. It's not a halakhic analogy used without toveling. It's a mitzvah to tevel. Because it's a mitzvah, you're not allowed to use without doing the mitzvah. But a mitzvah that you can't do, there's also a mitzvah. That's another argument, another weak argument. Some say that the, the metal inside is what we call a beis hastora, but it's a hidden area. It's a beluah. It might not need water to get there. Another argument is the water is not made for drinking. It's only after you mix it with coffee. These are all weak arguments. It's not brought to the table, so it's not a kli soda. It's not a regular keli used for the meal. My grandfather was lenient with electric dishes that are plugged in, provided they're alway-- they're never moved around. They always stay in one place. So these are all different sfatas that are brought around.

13:35 Speaker 2 There's, there's, um, the Ragad Shaver has a very interesting approach, and he says dishes that they sell in the store do not have to be toveled. They were never in the hands of the goy. They were not made for eating. They were made for business. And therefore, now that I bought it from a non-Jew, I bought a dish which is n-a non-eating dish. It's a business dish. It's not the mainstream position, but the Ragad Shaver did argue that. It fits with the Rebbe's sicha. The Rebbe's, uh, argues that the main reason why we have to toveled dishes that were by a non-Jew because they're potentially usable for non-kosher. Well, if they were not made as a-- They were made for business. They were not made to be used altogether. Today's day and age especially, it's highly unlikely in the store they're gonna be using that dish. But the Ragad Shaver in the end was stringent about it because this was a dish that was by the goy is being used as a merchandise, but it's made for a Jew to eat. But if it was made for the, for the common population, which is non-Jew, it's just another reason for leniency. So we'll have to rely on all these various leniency. It's a bit hard to rely on them because Tevilas Keilim is a deraysa, and these are not mainstream. These are all m-mostly rejected positions. So then we say that mitzvah is deraysa, but not using it is only derabanan. These are all a

14:54 Speaker 2 bunch of different arguments that are being used. But that-- all that we don't really rely on, and we tell people they should toveled their electric dishes. When it comes to the Keurig machine, it's much more lenient. Number one, it's not mamash a keli. It's a pump. It's not a real keli. Number two, it's not like any other electric dish. It will definitely get ruined as a digital display will get ruined. Number three, and that's probably the most important thing, it is impossible to toveled it, not because it will get ruined. That's one thing. It'll get ruined. Okay, that's your problem. The water can't even get it. It's impossible for the water to get there. If the water can get it, could be never had the obligation of toveling to begin with. So in such a case, it's much easy to rely on the heter of giving it as a present to a non-Jew and then borrowing it from him. Somebody wants to be machmir and have Keurig machines, he's welcome to be machmir. But the accepted position is in such a case, we can rely on the heter of giving it as a gift to a non-Jew. I want second, but it's going to be staying in my hand. Asad lo shako biyad izrol. It's just borrowing. It's a fake borrowing. It's a loan. It's staying by me. So the emes is that even this argument, the Taz, who brings up this argument, says that you should not rely on such a solution of giving

16:05 Speaker 2 as a gift to non-Jew only short-term, and for long-term, you should toveled, but do not make a beracha. In other words, this is clearly a chidush that you need to toveled it if you borrow it from a non-Jew because it's staying by you long-term. And the-- Interesting, the Taz writes, "When you toveled, toveled another keli with it. Like this, you'll be able to make a beracha." The Alter Rebbe doesn't even mention this idea, maybe because Alter Rebbe wasn't so concerned to begin with who says it needs to be toveled. Furthermore, the Taz says the reason why you should toveled this dish that you borrowed from a non-Jew because you could toveled it. That clearly implies that if you can't, you don't really need to toveled. And that explains very well why the Poskim bring that in very large dishes, which is very hard to toveled, they would rely on giving it as a gift to a non-Jew and then borrow it. Why did they rely on this leniency when after all it's staying by the Jew? Not because they couldn't toveled, it was very hard for them, it was large. Because when you ca-- The whole issur, the whole halakha that if it's staying by the Jew, you have to toveled it, the Taz only wrote when you could toveled it. So with the Keurig machine, there's much more reason to be lenient.

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17:38 Speaker 2 I wanna move on to a different question altogether, which is a very, very interesting topic, and that is as follows. There's a Halakha in Shulchan Aruch in Siman lei Sadiq Beis, which is not very well known, that Shabbos afternoon was a time when three great tzadikim passed away, Yosef HaTzadik, Moshe Rabbeinu, and David HaMelech. And because of that, there's certain minhagim that we do Shabbos afternoon to commemorate. It's a form of mourning for these great tzadikim. The prayer of Tzidkasscha, Tzidkasscha Tzedek, that we say Shabbos afternoon is similar to the idea of Tzidkat Din. Tzidkat Din is, is the prayer that we say to justify Hashem in His judgment In-- when someone passes away. So we say similarly with prayer of Tzedakah, three Shabbos afternoon to commemorate the morning for these three great tsaddikim. I-I have a vague recollection, and I didn't do the gematria right now, the Rebbe's father, , said that the gematria of the word Mincha three times is the same gematria as Yosef, Moshe, and David, the three tsaddikim that passed away Shabbos Mincha time. Again, I didn't work out the gematria right now, so I might be off, but be that as it may. So we have a lot of halachas about this time of mourning. And one of the halachas that's mentioned that we-- the Beit HaMidrash is batul. There's no formal learning taking place Shabbos afternoon. People learn privately, but no public formal learning. The hakham that gives a drashah does not give a drashah Shabbos afternoon between

19:22 Speaker 2 Mincha and Ma'ariv. That's not the time to give lectures because a hakham shames when a scholar passes away, Beit Midrash batul, they don't have formal classes in the Beit HaMidrash. One of the reasons for the minhag of Pirkei Avot stemmed from this idea. Pirkei Avot is a Shabbos afternoon minhag. We do it only Pesach Shaul, Sukkot, but in other ishurim they talk about doing it throughout the year because there was no normal learning schedule. So instead of learning, they do Pirkei Avot. So this halacha brought out that a lot of people can learn be-chavrusa, they can learn at home, but no formal Beit Midrash classes. So someone was asking, so practically speaking, he wants to make a shiur in shul after Mincha Shabbos until Ma'ariv time. Is that okay or not? It seems like from the posekim this would be a problem. So the answer is-- Well, I'll do like we normally do. Do a short answer, and then we'll say the long answer. The short answer is it's only an issue when it's close to evening, number one. So it's not all Shabbos afternoon. If it starts later than that time close to evening, or if you begin earlier, you're allowed to continue even later. If it's casual learning with a few people, it's not a formal kviyus Beit HaMidrash, a fixed class, it's also not an issue. In a place where this custom doesn't exist or there's a genuine need to make such a shiur 'cause people will otherwise waste their time, that's

20:42 Speaker 2 the practice in the community, then it would be perfectly fine. So first of all, about the timing of this minhag, the posekim say it's , close to when it gets dark. The Ketzot Hashulchan seems, seems to imply no, that the timing is closer to shkiya, not closer to nightfall. 'Cause he talks about shuls where they have a chassidus, ma'amar chassidus at Shalosh Seudahs time, and he says normally the ma'amar starts after shkiya, after sunset. So he seems to imply that after sunset is no longer a problem. It's-- he talks earlier over there about the fact that once Shabbos is over, even if, even if for us it's still Shabbos, it's not a problem. And then he mentions that the Shalosh Seudahs, the ma'amar is done after shkiya, it's not a problem. It seems like he's trying to imply that after shkiya it's no longer a problem. I, I-- My-- The challenge that I have with this is that if you look in the Rishonim, they clearly address the idea that they would have a Mincha on Shabbos afternoon early, and between prayers, between Mincha and Ma'ariv, the place went silent. There was no formal classes, and they speak about an early Minchas. I don't know how to resolve that. We-- when we say Tzedakah, which is also commemorating the passing of these three tsaddikim, we say anytime we'd have a Mincha, even if it's an early Mincha, we still say Tzedakah. There's also a minhag not to say Good Shabbos Shabbos afternoon. People say that

22:06 Speaker 2 someone was once by the Rebbe, and the Rebbe didn't wanna say Good Shabbos to him. It was Shabbos afternoon. He also didn't wanna not say Good Shabbos, it's not polite. And they say that the Rebbe said, "Good Shabbos Shabbos is also ein. We don't say Good Shabbos, but you should have one." So sort of covering both bases, not saying the, the formal wish of Good Shabbos. Greeting is sort of diminished at this time, but also not, not greeting him, which wouldn't be polite. So the not saying Good Shabbos, people pretty much throughout the day, they don't say Good Shabbos. Some people only when it's closer to sunset, some people only if they'd have a Mincha already. But either way, that's what the Ketzot Hashulchan writes about the timing of this minhag. The, the fact that it is-- the Ketzot Hashulchan mentions the idea of saying chassidus. Now, chassidus to begin with, I don't know why that's such an issue. If you could say Pirkei Avot, you could learn chassidus too. It's in . It's not regular formal megillah classes. Haggadah is not a problem you see clearly from the Rishonim was never an issue. Ma'aseh merkavah, which chassidus is all about, the Zohar says you're supposed to talk about ma'aseh merkavah this time Shabbos afternoon. In Sefardim they talk about how great tsaddiq would say Torah, that their Torah is almost like a tefillah. They're davening for Klal Yisrael. They're bringing down Klal Yisrael, and the Torahs of the great tsaddiq were not to begin

23:22 Speaker 2 with never an issue. Also, the Ketzot Hashulchan talks about a ma'amar during Shalosh Seudahs, so if it's in the middle of a meal, a lot of posekim are lenient anyhow. I mentioned earlier, if you start the shiur early, it wouldn't be an issue, a-and the evidence for that is from the Rash in Mesach vs. Acham. The Rash brings a shit that you shouldn't have Shalosh Seudahs this time too. You should do Shalosh Seudahs before Mincha, not after Mincha. It seems like the issue is always after Mincha. But he says if you start an earlier Shalosh Seudahs during the day, it's never a problem. Again, he's not telling us exactly what time this is, but if you start an earlier Shalosh Seudahs, you're allowed to continue until later. So if with the minhag of Shalosh Seudahs that some people wouldn't have after Mincha, if you start it earlier, it's not a problem. Certainly, with the minhag of not learning a biblitata minhag, if you start early, it wouldn't be a problem. It's only a minhag, it's not an isur. Posekim give a lot of different leniencies. And regardless, the Mishnah Berurah writes, and the Ketzot Hashulchan quotes this Mishnah Berurah, and the Rebbe in a letter quotes this Mishnah Berurah, that bizmanenu, nowadays we shouldn't stop people because unfortunately we know what goes on. People sit in the shul, they talk sikhar about Torah, and they waste their time. Let them hear inspiring thoughts. They shouldn't come to, to biblitata. The reason the Rebbe quotes this

24:34 Speaker 2 Mishnah Berurah is just telling the context. The Rebbe w-wrote that he's surprised that someone's speaking mussar Shabbos afternoon. It's not the right time for mussar. And this the Mishnah Berurah says let them hear mussar because they're wasting their time anyhow. That's why the Rebbe quotes this Mishnah Berurah. And I'll just add one final thought on this subject. It is a t'shuvah sefer called Edit Zvi of the Kazhyler Rebbe. The Kazhyler Rebbe's t'shuvah sefarim are very interesting because they incorporate a lot of Chassidish arguments together with halacha mixed together. He writes that the tsaddiqim that said Torah was not an issue, and the reason it's not an issue, he says, 'cause nowadays this whole issue is never an issue. These tsaddiqim that passed away, passed away in a time when people would passing in a way of mourning. Nowadays, these-- all these times have been transformed into positive and happy times. The day of a passing by a Tzadik is a Yom Hilula, Yom Simcha. So nowadays, there was never-- it's never an issue about not learning during those times. So and that's another argument put forth, a pretty unconventional argument. Another interesting shailah that I received. A sad story, but it has an interesting Halachic aspect to it. Someone made a mistake in the nine days, Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon, but it has bearing for the whole year discretion. And he thought you're not allowed to drink wine in the nine days. So what did he do? He came to Havdalah, and he made Havdalah without

25:55 Speaker 2 wine. That's what he did. The next day, he told his friend about this, and his friend said, "What?" So the que-- obviously, if you didn't make Havdalah Motza'ei Shabbos, you make it on Sunday. So he should make Havdalah on Sunday. Again, a Rav argued, "No, you shouldn't make Havdalah," 'cause his argument was, Bedieved, after the fact, he didn't use a cup of wine. He made Havdalah just saying the words, he was Yotzer. Is that correct or not? The answer is no, it is not correct. He has to make Havdalah again. The argument of this Rav was based on a Mishnah Berurah, and we'll talk about why this is not a, a correct Psak. The Mishnah Berurah talks about a person who doesn't have a cup, and he says that some people suggest that you should say Havdalah without wine if you don't have any, any, any, any Kos Yayin. And then the Mishnah Berurah says this should not be relied on. So he said, "This should not be relied," it means LeChatchilah, you shouldn't go and make Havdalah without a cup of wine. That's the expression, Ein L'horeh Zeken, so Bedieved, you're still Yotzer. No, but that's not correct. The question was of the Mishnah Berurah, should he LeChatchilah go make Havdalah without a Kos? And the answer was no, don't do that. But certainly if-- even if you would do it, you still would have to make Havdalah again later when you get a Kos, 'cause there's a Chiyuv to make Havdalah on a

27:13 Speaker 2 Kos of wine. Even Bedieved, it's very clear, even the Mishnah Berurah's position in other places, you need to have a cup of wine. You can't have Havdalah without wine. And he tells you, you shouldn't even-- even if you're not gonna have wine, don't even say the Havdalah without wine LeChatchilah. But he's not saying that Bedieved you're Yotzer. He never said that. You need to, you need to have a cup of wine, and you need to drink the cup of wine, and without drinking it, it doesn't work either. What's the argument that you should be able to make Havdalah without a cup of wine? Why do we even have to discuss it? 'Cause there's a Maram, a T'shuvias Maram. The Maram Rotenberg writes, brings from Rabbeinu Simcha, that if someone doesn't have wine, he doesn't have beer, he doesn't have anything to drink for Havdalah, he brings an opinion, you should do it without a Kos of wine. Chacham Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said to make a cup of wine, but if you don't have, it's like benching. You're supposed to bench on a Kos. If you don't have a Kos, you do it without a Kos. A lot of Poskim disagree with the Maram very strongly. The Rama already brings this Maram, and he asks a question on him. The Poskim write the Shitah of the Maram Yechidui, is individual opinions against all the Poskim. We do find a Kaf HaChaim that talks about someone that by mistake made Havdalah, he thought it was wine, and

28:22 Speaker 2 he tasted it, he thought it was vinegar. And he said that the Chida said, "Take a new cup of wine and do Havdalah again." He says, "No, I'm not convinced that's correct since there are opinions that you don't need wine, even though we don't follow those opinions. But after the fact, who says he should do it again? It might be Bracha L'vatalah." But on this Kaf HaChaim, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach writes, he says, "How could you rely on this? Havdalah is com-- Gemara learns from Kiddush. With Kiddush, when the wine spilled out, you make again Kiddush. So obviously, the same thing would be my Havdalah." The Chida definitely f-- said that, that even if you found out it was vinegar, you gotta do it again. So we should follow the position of the Chida. And if you come to think of it, I don't think the Maram Rotenberg even meant that you Yotzer Havdalah without a cup of wine. He said you should make Havdalah with a Bracha. But even according to him, later, if you're gonna get a cup of wine, you're gonna make Havdalah again. Cup of wine is part of the mitzvah of Havdalah. He was arguing there's also a mitzvah without a cup of wine, but not that if you did it, you shouldn't go and do it again. We similarly find there was a Posek called the Mari Molcho, and he said if somebody doesn't have on Shabbos wine, bread, make Kiddush without wine. Obviously, you're gonna get a cup

29:31 Speaker 2 of wine, you're gonna make Kiddush again. That's obvious 'cause there's also a thing as being Yotzer Kiddush without bread. He was arguing there's two parts to the mitzvah. We see that in the words of the Rama. The Rama says a mitzvah, L'kadesh Yom HaShabbes B'divarim, make Kiddush with words, and he gives the Nusach of Kiddush. And after the Rama gives the whole Nusach of Kiddush, he says, "U'medivri De'osaif L'kadesh Al Yayin." He has a full-fledged Bracha of Kiddush, and he adds, the rabbi said you should do it with wine. There's one Halacha to make the-- say Kiddush, another Halacha to say it in wine. If you can't do one, at least do the other one. But if you could do both, after you did one, follow up and do the other one, and the same thing would apply with Havdalah. Even though the Maram compares it to benching, now, he says that you could bench-- you're supposed to bench with a Kos. If you don't have a Kos, you'll bench without a Kos. Now, if somebody benches without a Kos, are they gonna bench again when they get a Kos? The answer is yes. The Maram is following the position which is the Halacha, that Birchas Hamazon To'un L'kos, that you need to have a Kos for benching. Clearly, the Maram is following that position. You can't bench without a Kos. He says, but still, if you don't have one, you'll do it without a Kos. So if you follow that position that you need

30:35 Speaker 2 to have a Kos, indeed, you are not Yotzer without a Kos, and when you're gonna get a Kos, you'll have to do it again. We see that clearly in the Rishonim that say you're not Yotzer benching if you didn't have a Kos. So let's talk about those Rishonim. You're not Yotzer benching without a Kos, so you shouldn't bench? There's a mitzvah in the Torah to bench. No. They mean to say when you get a Kos, you gotta follow up and do it again. So this person who made Havdalah without a Kos has to go and do Havdalah again. I just wanna finish with one final interesting thought Not, not, not a halacha, but a, a thought. And we had this in a Rambam a while ago, where the, the Rambam talks about a group of people who each went and brought a sheep for Korban Pesach. And I'll tell you one of the, the thought that I wanna take from this. Somehow it got mixed together, and nobody-- they don't know which sheep belongs to which person. And you have a problem, every person has to eat davka from his Korban Pesach. So, uh, ideal would be, if these five people have the Korban Pesach mixed together, each person takes another sheep and says, "If this sheep is mine, then this new sheep won't be a Korban Pesach. The new sheep that I'm taking will be a Korban Shlam, a different type of Korban. If the original sheep is not mine, then the new sheep

31:43 Speaker 2 will be Korban Pesach." So everybody has either way a Korban Pesach, everything will be fine, why can't we do that? Says the Gemara, you can't do that because Korban Pesach and Shlam have different rules, and if you don't know if this animal that you're holding, you take another one and have it for a Shlamim or a Korban Pesach, it should be for either one. A Shlamim Kor-- one, you put your hands in it, one you don't put your hands in it. How, how you sprinkle the blood, all very, very different. So Toises asks a question, he says, "We're worrying about smicha and how to put the blood. There's a much bigger problem. If a guy is not gonna bring a Korban Pesach," he says, "not having a Korban Pesach is, is a question of karas, a very serious crime. So why are we worrying about these smaller problems when we're trying to save someone from karas? So if you didn't put the blood on the right places, it's still ka- all kosher." And Toises says there's a big difference between one person and the whole group. We're talking about here where everybody-- most people did the obligation of prayer, everything was fine. Everybody had a Korban Pesach. It's one person that we have a doubt what, what's the story with his Korban Pesach. Says Toises, "We don't solve a problem of one person by creating a new problem for the majority. We wanna help someone that he should have a Korban Pesach. We don't wanna

32:54 Speaker 2 mess him up." Well, it's, it's a very important thing. I'll read the words of Toises. Sh-so, " Tov sheyitche safek karas bashen al taisa" I rather that a person should violate an issur of karas, but he's not doing it, and he's just not bringing a Korban, "ma sheyaaser ruban sh'lo kehergen ki klaru maaser Pesach." Most people didn't bring a Korban Pesach in this case, and what we're gonna do is we're gonna have most people do the wrong thing and bring a Korban the wrong way. That Toises is not-- says we're not happy with that. The principle is we don't create a definite halachic problem for many people in order to resolve a doubt for one person. And that comes up a lot of times in halacha questions. We wanna save people, but what we're doing is we're, we're putting down the standards for the majority of the people, and that's a problem. Like a Rav once told me that they are hatav for hefsev baruba, if there's a substantial loss. There's a tatev for shas atkak when you're desperate. There's a tatev for toydet gadol, a great need. There's a tatev for kavod Shabbos v'Yom Tov, for Shabbosi-- for a mitzvah, for orchin, for guests. But we don't take shas atkak, hefsev baruba, kavod Shabbos v'Yom Tov, toydet orchin, toydet gadol, toydet mitzvah, make that into a mainstream, regular position. When it comes to asking a goy to do a melacha on Shabbos, so if it's something which is only a shlush, only rabbinically done

34:16 Speaker 2 in certain cases, great loss, great need, we can ask a goy to do what we call a shlush d'shlush b'makom mitzvah, b'makom hefsev, et cetera. But Al Trevo says you can't set up a system like that. You can't go before Shabbos rely on that. We can't have everybody doing something which is probably not ideal because you wanna save one person from doing something which is safek karas. So we have to think about how we, um, inter-- when it comes to halacha, that's just something, a lesson that I took from that Toises.

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