Ep. 103 // "Living On A Verse" w/ Rabbi Gershon Avtzon

00:00 Speaker 1 The Rebbe is expecting us right now to live in a very, very uncomfortable situation. That is, there's gimel tams and the Helen Vesters, Mesemestemlem, right? The oil is real. At the same time, I fully believe as Mahabana Lebi de Ke Rebbe, like in a, in a very, very literal sense.

00:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

00:25 Speaker 1 Why? Because as I state, the Torah says, and the Nasi says that in every generation, we have a Rebbe that's Hini Oimed Ben Avaya Ben Eicha. And the Rebbe writes a famous sikhas that that Nasi is with us in Agash Mistakaway. How that works and how that coincides, right, is a very, very troubling thing to the fact that Gemara asks, how could you have Yaakov Le Meis, Chibichti, Chantu Chantaia, right?

00:54 Speaker 2 Right.

00:55 Speaker 1 And the Gemara answers Mikroni Deutch, that as I state in Pasak.

01:03 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-six. My name is Benzi Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. Good evening from Cincinnati. Your Kiddush, we can call your Kiddush at this point. There's, uh-

01:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:27 Speaker 2 So, so many Meisus here. I got a s-- I got a brief tour of the, of the Meisus, uh, many of which are, uh, the, are the payers of the hard work of my cousin, who is sitting across the table from me, Rabbi Gershon Afson, the founder and Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Lubavitch Cincinnati, which you said you've been doing for twenty-one years at this point.

01:50 Speaker 1 Twenty-first year.

01:50 Speaker 2 Twenty-first year. So twenty years, and this is the twenty-first year. Ach, ach. Do, do you know-- This is my favorite vort. I don't know how many times I've chazed it over here. Um, a lot of it will be chazed in the Australia episodes, I believe. But so not negia, we chazed every episode. The, the Fidik Rebbe, the first Sonchas Teira that he was in America, Tov Shen Alef, right? So one of the things he said was that the Chassidim, the Tamidim of the Bashem Tiv, the first name that they had was, the way they called themselves was Ahovim and Yedidim. You know that? Ahovim and Yedidim. And for twenty-one years, that's what they called themselves. Ach. Ach, ach, ach tove, ach tove. I don't know if he says ach tove, but ach shana, uh, they called themselves Ahovim and Yedidim. The Mesnagdim called them Chassidim, and for some reason, that's what the name that stuck, which is very interesting to me. He doesn't explain why they let that slide. But to me, it's just very negia, and I may well get back to this in the conversation, that the foundation of, of... And in that same, in that same fabringen, he brings us, he brings, uh, the famous line, it could be it's quoted on IM game, that, uh, that halavai we would kiss his, we, we would kiss his yevetere the way Bashem Tiv kissed the-

03:05 Speaker 1 Kissed by calling cheder.

03:06 Speaker 2 That's the IM game, right? So he brings it in that sikha as well, in that fabringen as well. So the foundation of Chassidim starts with Bashem Tiv is Avei Zisro. And, and Avei Zisro not in some... There's also madregas of Avei Zisro, ruchniyus negia. But at a simple level, Avei Zisro is Parashat-

03:24 Speaker 1 Li Vavainayid.

03:25 Speaker 2 Li Vavainayid, and even simpler than that, brotherhood, right? Like, like Parashat caring and, and friend, friendliness, friendship. Um, you know, it's interesting. I don't know if you, if you paid attention to this. You know, we share a grandfather, to those who are listening, uh, Rabbi Meir Afson, and he had a memoir, Erez Bafeila.

03:46 Speaker 1 I have it here in the house.

03:47 Speaker 2 Oh, good. Good. I'm looking for the copy that I used to have. Um, Levi Afson, South Africa, if he's listening, he's going to have to fargin us talking about the memoir right now. He's, uh, deal with it. Anyway, uh, and one of the things that's very interesting there was he writes Zakarin from, uh, the m- the, the last Bashem Tiv in Leningrad, when they knew that the Fidika was being shipped out.

04:14 Speaker 1 Kulam Ahovim.

04:16 Speaker 2 Uh, so I don't remember that line, but I-- the line that stuck with me was that the Fidika Rebbe said, "I wanna call you brothers." But Heyoi said, "I never had a brother, so I don't know what brother-- I don't know what it means to call someone a brother," which is bchal, an interesting thing for some-- for, for him to say. Like, it's a very, like, honest, like, I, I can't describe something I'd never had. But so I'll call you Yedidim. And bchal, the Fidika Rebbe called a lot of people in his letters Yedidim and so on. But, uh, to me, that's just, it's friendship. It starts with friendship. You don't wanna start adding layers of, of love and then, then, like, you know, all kinds of things. But anyway, so ach, ach shana.

04:57 Speaker 1 If I'm not mistaken, you're talking about Ahovim and Yedidim. I think in that memoirs, he also says a story about the last Tishrei. You know, the Fidika Rebbe, they were very careful that his health and how many people were in a room, et cetera. So when he came to Fabreg, they only let a certain amount of people in. But the bachur knew that after this, it may not be, so they all, uh-

05:21 Speaker 2 Yeah

05:22 Speaker 1 ...packed into the room.

05:23 Speaker 2 Bring the mic a little bit closer.

05:25 Speaker 1 So when the Fidika Rebbe came, he sees a packed room, and he asked the one in charge of like, "What's going on over here?" He made a motion with his hand. So he said, "Kulam Ahovim."

05:38 Speaker 2 Right.

05:38 Speaker 1 So the Fidika Rebbe asked, "Kulam Brurim?" Like, were they all had permission? They all... Says, "Kulam Giblenim." They all pushed their way. He says, "Ah, Kulam Kedoshim." Okay.

05:46 Speaker 2 Right. Very nice. Well, Kulam Brurim, they were worried about people that were not, uh-

05:51 Speaker 1 I don't think it was just about who were not Chassidim, but more like not everyone had the shuls to come in.

05:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, uh, they, they didn't think they would see him again.

05:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

06:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. So before we begin the official interview, um, this is something that I've been looking forward to for a long time. I wasn't sure when I'd make it to Cincinnati, but here we are. Uh, but before we begin, uh, I'd like to ask everyone who will enjoy this podcast to like and subscribe on the various platforms. Like I began saying, if I can travel to Cincinnati or wherever it is, I can stay up at night in between whatever I'm filming and doing over here, you can like and subscribe and press, and press the button on your screen. If it helps us a little bit, then it does help us. And if you're even more great, you could consider supporting the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. Be greatly appreciated. Rabbi Gershon, thank you very much for making the time. It was very nice to see the maisis that you built, and, uh, there's no question that there is layers of sweat and tears in these maisis that I can't even begin to fathom. And, uh, but it's obvious, So to you, and thank you for making the time.

07:10 Speaker 1 My pleasure.

07:11 Speaker 2 Um, like, like, like we've mentioned a couple times already, we, we ha- we share a last name, and all offsons, I believe in the world, certainly in Lubavitch are cousins. There's a lot of us, but there's only one family. There's one grandfather, one survivor. Um, so we're cousins. Um, but we grew up in very different circumstances, both, uh, geographically as well as just circumstantially and socially and Lubavitchly as well. And, um, so I think, you know, instead of a podcast where we talk about the kind of inside jokes of cousins, which I don't believe we have so many, maybe we do a few, but I think, uh, more apropos for this podcast would be to talk about your unique experience that I am not familiar with. Um, so why don't you talk a little bit about growing up in Crown Heights, what those years were like. Um, I guess to take us back to where it started, what was going on in your memories? What, what kind of Cr- what kind of Crown Heights did you grow up in?

08:19 Speaker 1 Okay. So just, uh, to make sure everyone knows that I was born So we're talking about nineteen eighty-one when was just founded. So the memes were just about to take off. had just begun the Rebbe's revolution of creating an army of children.

08:38 Speaker 2 What do you mean by memes? The-

08:39 Speaker 1 Uh-

08:40 Speaker 2 What do you mean by the memes ?

08:41 Speaker 1 The memes is a a s- a tremendous in the amount of Torah, the that's gonna end up happening every week, and the the amount of that went on, and the of the memes, and obviously, you know, dollar starting, et cetera. There's gonna be a whole new, you know, expansion of Lubavitch in the memes. And one of the biggest revolutions of that was the children, the emphasis of children-

09:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:09 Speaker 1 The army that was being created in Now, I have a theory on this. Again, it's a not a That in the Rebbe was looking ahead and saw that he needs special soldiers that are gonna be ready in thirteen years in to be ready to stand at the forefront. And they say a story that there was one of the kings, they made a play about yeshiva called Kadetsky Corpus.

09:36 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's a story from, uh, fr-- They used to play it in those tapes that the, the, but the Rebbe's maisis, what they call it.

09:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. But they, the yeshiva made it one of their generation seven.

09:46 Speaker 2 Oh, they made a play out of that story?

09:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. But the idea was that, you know, there was a, a Rav, and he gave a heter to one person, and when the Lubavitcher asked that for a heter, he said, "No." And he said, "Why not?" He said, "You're Kadetsky Corpus." He's like, "What is that?" And it seemed like the Tsar w- at a certain point, there were soldiers, and he said, "I'm gonna create a breed that's . Like, from when they're young, young, young, we're gonna train them to be different, and they're gonna be my elite soldiers totally devoted to me. They're gonna be ready to go."

10:15 Speaker 2 They were terrible people, but yes.

10:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:17 Speaker 2 They're the worst, the worst of the worst.

10:19 Speaker 1 I'm not talking about what they actually did.

10:21 Speaker 2 Right.

10:21 Speaker 1 I'm talking about the, the concept.

10:23 Speaker 2 Yeah.

10:23 Speaker 1 And he said that the they are the Kadetsky Corp. They're the highest grade, the-

10:28 Speaker 2 Right

10:28 Speaker 1 ... you know, where you would come from. You know, the you know, the-- this is the, the real, real chevra-

10:34 Speaker 2 Yeah

10:34 Speaker 1 ... that are ready to go on fire and And to me, I, I look at, you know, the Rebbe really looking ahead, is gonna be... He needs to create an army that he literally raised from when the second they were born. They were born into the Rebbe's army, and maybe we could talk about that a little later in the podcast.

10:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

10:51 Speaker 1 But I was born in Crown Heights. Um, so really, really in the, in the thick of our whole life in Crown Heights growing up, of course, it's not what you talk about growing up on Like, I know, like, I always knew I had an uncle in Hong Kong, not that I really met him really too, if too often. Hanukkah Live I met him in seven seventy. That was my-

11:17 Speaker 2 That's funny.

11:17 Speaker 1 That's when I met my uncle, and would say, "Oh, my uncle, my uncle." Like, that was my pride. I had an uncle, and I didn't know who he was, but, you know, the-

11:23 Speaker 2 Well, to be fair, there's fifteen of them.

11:25 Speaker 1 Right. But I'm just saying, like, the uncle in Hong Kong was really in Hong Kong. It wasn't-

11:29 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah

11:29 Speaker 1 ... it wasn't, uh-

11:30 Speaker 2 And familiar. Hong Kong was very far away.

11:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:32 Speaker 2 Still is, but then it was even further, yeah.

11:34 Speaker 1 No, no social media. There's no interaction, no cellphones. Like, there was really no connection.

11:38 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

11:39 Speaker 1 So, but I was always proud when the, you know, the Hanukkah Live. But just give you an idea, we grew up with Hanukkah Live.

11:45 Speaker 2 Right.

11:46 Speaker 1 Um, not just that, but, you know, literally every Shabbat-

11:50 Speaker 2 Hanukkah Live, you're already ten years old.

11:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. Growing up in the men's-

12:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

12:43 Speaker 1 ... we, all the Fabregians, my father was very machpid that we came, and we had a seat behind the Rebbe if you-- behind the Rebbe were the skanim. Now-

12:53 Speaker 2 That's where your father sat, or so the kids sat?

12:55 Speaker 1 My fa- No, there were kids sitting on the floor.

12:56 Speaker 2 Right.

12:57 Speaker 1 And my father, we're now they have, like, the library. We're now going into the women's section. There was a very, very, very big... I mean, everyone knows this. There was, like, this very, very big air conditioner that was, like, blowing. The Rebbe wanted it cold, so they had that thing.

13:12 Speaker 2 The Rebbe wanted it cold?

13:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. Sitting in there, you wanted it cold for the Rebbe.

13:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's interesting. Somebody told me, somebody told me on the podcast. Who was it? I think Rabbi, I think Rabbi Cousin told me that the first thing that struck him when he walked into Yechid the first time was how cold it was in the Rebbe's room. Anyway.

13:28 Speaker 1 So the, the skanim sat, and there was, like, a little cubicle. Like, there was a space open. My father stood there. Dr. Rosen stood there.

13:35 Speaker 2 In front of the air conditioner.

13:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:37 Speaker 2 So they wouldn't-- they would be frozen at the end.

13:38 Speaker 1 Probably. We had special Fabregian sweaters. So there were six kids-

13:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

13:43 Speaker 1 ... that sat on a bench. The back bench, which actually we... was against the back wall. We would stand up. We would be right in front of the ezras nashim, just, uh-

13:51 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

13:51 Speaker 1 ... the other kids were sitting on the floor. We were six kids 'cause Rabbi Fitzi Lipszyc, alav ha-shalom, who was the mashpia in Morristown to Faris.

13:57 Speaker 2 Right.

13:58 Speaker 1 He had three boys, and he was the one that gave out the l'chaims to that section of seven seventy, like-

14:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

14:03 Speaker 1 ... between the sichas. So he had three boys: Yehuda, Mendy, Matty. And then we were three boys: Gershon, Mendel, Moshe. So there were six boys always by the back bench.

14:15 Speaker 2 You have younger brothers too. I guess at this time you had three.

14:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:17 Speaker 2 It's-

14:17 Speaker 1 Talking about in this cheder.

14:19 Speaker 2 Right.

14:20 Speaker 1 So we literally had Fabregian sweaters, freezing sweaters- ... that we would come, matching sweaters, and we would come to every Shabbos Fabregian. We didn't grow up davening in seven seventy because the Rebbe wanted that the local shuls should not be closed down. So on Crown Street where my parents lived, there was a shul still. I don't know if it still exists. There was a suss, it's a shtiebel.

14:40 Speaker 2 The basement one, uh, near Kingston?

14:42 Speaker 1 No, it was, uh, off Kingston. It was, like, the first house after the building.

14:47 Speaker 2 Yeah, between Kingston and Albany, right?

14:48 Speaker 1 Between Kingston and Albany.

14:49 Speaker 2 Like a, like a walk-in on from the floor, no?

14:51 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Not on the left side. It was a house. It was a shtiebel-

14:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

14:55 Speaker 1 ... house. Uncle Yena davened there as well.

14:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

14:58 Speaker 1 And that's where we davened Shabbos. But right after the little kiddush there, we would all go every Shabbos to Fabregian. Um, in the-- and when I was younger, we would come, not Mamish at the begin-- My father would leave right away. We would come a little bit into the Fabregian. From the other side, my mother is a Gitlin. My bubbe, z"l, my bubbe Gitlin, most people know her from the dollar line. She's one of the ladies that Mrs. Sternberg worked together. They shlepped the ladies from the dollar line.

15:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

15:27 Speaker 1 So, you know how she got that position is a beautiful story of its own. But the idea was she was always by the Rebbe every dollar. So anytime there would be a sicha dollar, she would shlep us there as well. But she would come to every Fabregian. She would drop us off. She would go to the ezras nashim. We would-- My father was already in seven seventy. We would go to the men's section, go for the side. Then we had to get to my father. We'd crawl under the benches. Today, I wonder, like, we'd let kids crawl. I don't know if they would fall down when you think of these stories. But we literally would crawl under the benches till we would pop out-

16:01 Speaker 2 Right

16:01 Speaker 1 ... where all the kids were sitting. Then we would get our seats-

16:03 Speaker 2 You should put the, yeah

16:04 Speaker 1 ... we'd get our seats behind the Rebbe.

16:07 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

16:07 Speaker 1 Um, as kids, we didn't really listen to the sichas. Our highlight was the nigunim. You know, by the sichas, we would sit down.

16:15 Speaker 2 You weren't bored?

16:18 Speaker 1 It wasn't about bored. It was just a fact of life. It was just what we did. Like, we just went to Rebbe's Fabregian.

16:22 Speaker 2 But what the kids occupy themselves, the sichas were long. Some of them were long.

16:26 Speaker 1 Sichas were long. We, we were sitting. We would, uh-

16:29 Speaker 2 Talk to each other? You play kugelhack? Like, what-

16:31 Speaker 1 Mainly, we would just sit there, hear a little bit. Now, you also have to understand, we wait for the nigun. In the later years especially, you think they would start speaking about Moshe. Vayitvoie, you knew that the, you know, it was time for the nigun.

16:42 Speaker 2 The pitcher's coming up.

16:43 Speaker 1 But all of a sudden, if you-- in the later years, it was vayitvoie, then next part of the sicha. There's-

16:48 Speaker 2 Right

16:48 Speaker 1 ... it didn't finish. It was like seven vayitvoeis.

16:50 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

16:51 Speaker 1 But we'd go, like, up and down.

16:52 Speaker 2 So you liked the nigunim.

16:54 Speaker 1 We loved the nigunim, and it was a highlight for us. If the Rebbe stood up, that was like, ah.

16:59 Speaker 2 I love the nigunim.

17:00 Speaker 1 That was like if we-- if the Rebbe stood up by that Fabregian, it's a good Fabregian.

17:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

17:04 Speaker 1 The Rebbe would always say l'chaim to the kids. It was like always Shabbos. But it wasn't like, "Oh, what did we do?" It was just that was what we did. Like, it wasn't like a Torah tractate thing. We, we went to the Rebbe's Fabregian.

17:14 Speaker 2 Right.

17:14 Speaker 1 It wasn't a... I remember as a k- also the sichas because my bubbe was on the dollar line. So every time the Rebbe spoke, there was a sicha. There was a, I mean, dollars. We were in seven seventy. My bubbe would always tell me, "Gershon, one day I hope you'll be a choizer." That was like her, that you'll be able to-

17:28 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

17:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. "One day I hope you'll be a choizer." She would ask, "Have you heard anything?" We'd go home. "Can you tell anything from the sicha?" That's, you know, one day-

17:35 Speaker 2 That's interesting. She wanted to be a choizer.

17:37 Speaker 1 One day you'll be a choizer. That was her tfilu.

17:41 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

17:41 Speaker 1 You know, someone that can give you Rebbe's toirah, you know, the choizeh. But by us it was a, a davar achi pashet.

17:48 Speaker 2 I mean, that was always, that was always a very prestigious position. I mean-

17:53 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't think she was looking at it as the gadlus chavas-

17:55 Speaker 2 No, the, the ability, the ability to do it

17:57 Speaker 1 ... to be able to give over the Rebbe's words. Now, my father-

18:00 Speaker 2 No, I've never... Like, there she was like, "You'd be a shliach." But it's funny, like, that was still a thing for her.

18:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. She didn't grow up in Lubavitch.

18:08 Speaker 2 I get it. I get it.

18:10 Speaker 1 Um, I remember between the sichas, there were a few people that stood next to my father that they didn't really know the Yiddish, so my father would translate-

18:18 Speaker 2 Like Baal Teshuvas?

18:20 Speaker 1 My father would translate the sichas betwe- by the-

18:23 Speaker 2 Right

18:23 Speaker 1 ... nigun. Um, then we would have a the Rebbe. But again, you have to understand, it was just so natural. Seven seventy was a natural place.

18:31 Speaker 2 How did your father... I know we're jumping around here a little bit, but how did your father, uh... You said he translated the sichas. Did he start having difficulty translating the sichas in the later years when the sichas were-- they, the style changed, especially the last years?

18:43 Speaker 1 I don't know. Again, I don't know if it was like a chazarah of, you know, it's probably in the code that we spoke about.

18:49 Speaker 2 Yeah, but they partially, they partially got hard to understand, didn't they?

18:52 Speaker 1 I've never asked him that.

18:54 Speaker 2 You, you don't know?

18:55 Speaker 1 I don't know. Um, I just remember it happening. Just in the code of the, of the sicha.

19:00 Speaker 2 Right.

19:00 Speaker 1 Again, howev-however long the nigun was. And again, we also-- A lot of people say they sat by the fabrengen. They couldn't hear if they were further away. This was mamash two rows-

19:10 Speaker 2 You're saying, you're saying the later years?

19:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, this is two rows behind.

19:12 Speaker 2 So you could always hear?

19:13 Speaker 1 You could always hear. So that wasn't the-

19:15 Speaker 2 All right

19:16 Speaker 1 ... issue. Um, and growing up in Crown Heights, just the Rebbe was . It wasn't like you didn't have to be taught about Rebbe, obviously. This was just our life, and it wasn't in a very way. It wasn't like a Chabad way.

19:33 Speaker 2 Right.

19:33 Speaker 1 We were regular kids. We went to Ocean Parkway Lubavitch Yeshiva. It was-

19:37 Speaker 2 Which was normal or not normal back then?

19:39 Speaker 1 It was very normal.

19:40 Speaker 2 So what was... Like, what, who deci- Like, what, what determined if a kid went to-

19:44 Speaker 1 Went to Alter Rebbe Ocean Parkway?

19:45 Speaker 2 Right.

19:45 Speaker 1 Again, Crown Street didn't exist when I was a kid.

19:47 Speaker 2 Right. Th- Well, Ocean Parkway is originally Bedford-Indy, right?

19:51 Speaker 1 Correct.

19:51 Speaker 2 Which was under the Rashag.

19:52 Speaker 1 Correct.

19:53 Speaker 2 That's the original yeshiva.

19:55 Speaker 1 Right. So my father-

19:56 Speaker 2 Right? Isn't that what happened?

19:57 Speaker 1 Correct.

19:57 Speaker 2 Bedford-Indy had a fire or something, so they moved to Ocean Parkway.

19:59 Speaker 1 Correct.

20:00 Speaker 2 And, and after that, Alter Rebbe was, for many years, the, the small yeshiva that started. Right. So, so what, what determined that someone would go there or not? It was just a preference of the parents?

20:10 Speaker 1 Preference of the parents. Um, for example, my mother, for I don't know if it was before she was married or right after, she was also one of the Re- Rashag secretaries. So she-

20:19 Speaker 2 Oh, that makes sense

20:20 Speaker 1 ... Yeah. My father also was very close at the time with Rabbi Moshe Baginski, who was our principal.

20:25 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.

20:26 Speaker 1 So there was a sort of a connection there. And a lot of, I mean, a lot of our class, we had two classes, you know, two classes per grade.

20:36 Speaker 2 Right.

20:37 Speaker 1 That full Lubavitch kids went to Ocean Parkway.

20:40 Speaker 2 But you said it, you said it together, the fact that it wasn't like, uh, the Rebbe wasn't some, like, f-fabrengen for you. It was a fact of life, and you connect that to Lubavitch Ocean Parkway.

20:51 Speaker 1 What I'm saying is, to a certain extent, I would say the Alter Rebbe had always-

20:56 Speaker 2 Was born to it

20:56 Speaker 1 ... had a fabregnen.

20:58 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:58 Speaker 1 Our Uncle Sholom, for example-

21:00 Speaker 2 Yes

21:01 Speaker 1 ... who was my teacher in Kehillas Yaakov-

21:02 Speaker 2 In Ocean Parkway

21:03 Speaker 1 ... seventh grade, Ocean Parkway. Um, wh- how did he get started with all his books, Day to Recall, Day to Remember?

21:09 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

21:09 Speaker 1 All these history of Lubavitch and Rebbe, and where was that passion? He was teaching Lubavitcher kids, and I remember he would go around the classes asking us, "Do we know what this was, what that was?"

21:20 Speaker 2 And you didn't.

21:21 Speaker 1 Most of us didn't know. Dates for sure, years, who was married to who, what date, birth certificates-

21:25 Speaker 2 Is it negia to know these things? N- Today, you think it's negia to know these things?

21:28 Speaker 1 I think of course.

21:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

21:29 Speaker 1 Because it really, really gives you an identity, a culture, a environment.

21:33 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

21:33 Speaker 1 But when... Now, I'm not saying it was good that we didn't. Um, the first of all, the fact is that we really didn't.

21:39 Speaker 2 Right.

21:39 Speaker 1 And hence, he would come out with these small booklets for each yom tov-

21:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

21:42 Speaker 1 ... that became a book, Day to Recall, Day to Remember, which ended up becoming a full volume of each Rebbe. But it wasn't something that, uh, was intensely... But the Rebbe, uh, he also had a just-- I know we jumped. He had a beautiful minig, Uncle Sholom. And you know, I s- I look back, and I say, "That was quite a..." They would give-- In the later years, they would give out kontrasim. Most people took the kontrasim, put it on the shelf.

22:09 Speaker 2 Right.

22:10 Speaker 1 What do you do with the kontras? A memory of the Rebbe, ma- whatever it was.

22:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. A memento. Yeah.

22:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. We have, look on the shelf over there. There's, uh, all the kontrasim straight ahead.

22:18 Speaker 2 Right. All right.

22:18 Speaker 1 But he would make sure that the next day, if the Rebbe gave out a kontras, you have to bring it to yeshiva, and he would learn. At least one day, you learned a chelek of the kontras.

22:28 Speaker 2 Uh, put it to use.

22:29 Speaker 1 One time that you actually Rebbe gave out a kontras. So, uh-

22:32 Speaker 2 Put it to use

22:32 Speaker 1 ... use it. But the idea was that, you know, it wasn't that we learned so many sichas, and we chanech gornem. I mean, the Rebbe's kapitel nigun was always a big hit by the kids.

22:44 Speaker 2 Right.

22:45 Speaker 1 But even in camps, you know, it wasn't a, "I was in New York. days in ." You know, they were-- It wasn't as sichas intense as what it-

22:56 Speaker 2 So what's changed? What's changed in your mind?

22:58 Speaker 1 In how things changed?

23:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. How do you def-- I mean, I, I understand what you're saying, that it's, that it was less... What would be the word? It was less, uh, intentional in a way than things just were kind of going, as opposed to today, like, lo- I- identity was more, like you said, a fact of life and less, like, intentional, like a kavana. It was just who you were.

23:20 Speaker 1 Exactly.

23:20 Speaker 2 And, and what's changed?

23:22 Speaker 1 Well, that... What changed, I mean, the obvious change is a Rebbe that has to be taught.

23:29 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

23:30 Speaker 1 Just forget about the sicha of what, when, and how. We'll talk maybe more about that.

23:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, I understand.

23:35 Speaker 1 But everyone agrees that it's a Rebbe that has to be taught, explained, lived, and directed. The moment you're becoming-- The moment that shifts, so all of a sudden, a Rebbe that's taught from the sichas. I'll give you a, a, I'm-

23:51 Speaker 2 But, but-

23:52 Speaker 1 I'll explain to you what I mean.

23:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:54 Speaker 1 Um, I grew up in Crown Heights.

23:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

23:57 Speaker 1 I, I don't know if I was by the groundbreaking of seven seventy, but we definitely remember the groundbreaking of seven seventy when the Rebbe broke ground. Like, you know, we saw. We saw the, the trying to expand seven seventy. This was something-

24:10 Speaker 2 Right

24:10 Speaker 1 ... we grew up with every single day.

24:12 Speaker 2 Right.

24:13 Speaker 1 But I only learned the first time in five seven nine wow. It wasn't like something that, oh, you have to-- If you wanna know about seven seventy, the importance of seven seventy, and so now we're gonna have a kontras.

24:27 Speaker 2 Well, that's 'cause you also got older. How old are you in wow? You're ten years old.

24:31 Speaker 1 Today, they're teaching to-

24:33 Speaker 2 To 10-year-olds

24:33 Speaker 1 ... 10-year-olds.

24:34 Speaker 2 I see what you're saying.

24:35 Speaker 1 The idea is, okay, kids, you see a shul. You wanna know the importance of it? Let's learn a sicha explaining-

24:41 Speaker 2 I see

24:41 Speaker 1 ...

24:43 Speaker 2 As many of you know, I recently traveled to Australia to spend six days exclusively recording for the Homesick for Lubavitch podcast. I went in with high expectations. I felt that there were stories interesting and important enough that deserved a trip across the Pacific Ocean. But what I came away with far exceeded even my wildest dreams. For these 20 interviews were more than just 20 separate stories. Rather, they came together to tell a much larger story, a much more powerful story, one that I believe changed my life, and I also believe will change the lives of thousands of people around the world. For this is a story about love, the love that the Rebbe had for chassidim across the ocean, the love that they had to him, the love that they had for each other, and the love that overflowed from these relationships to thousands and then tens of thousands of fellow Yidden in Australia who became part of the thriving and growing community that is Lubavitch of Australia today. If you would like to take part in this historic project, either by dedicating one of the episodes in memory or in honor of a loved one, or by advertising your company in one or multiple episodes, please reach out to me at bentzi@uvlumedia.com, bentzi@uvlumedia.com. I invite you to take part in this project, and I look forward to sharing this wonderful story, what I call The Miracle of Lubavitch in Australia, with all of you in the weeks to come. And now, back to the

26:12 Speaker 2 show. But one second. You said before, "Kol ha'olam haba me'ahavah," that today the Rebbe has to be taught. Can I, can I-- can we, can we challenge that? Maybe, maybe-- I, I'm not arguing with you that kol ha'olam haba me'ahavah. It's, it's obvious that everyone agrees, but let's play devil's advocate.

26:29 Speaker 3 Sure.

26:30 Speaker 2 Is it so pashut that it has to change like that? I mean, obviously, uh, Gmar Hakaras happens, and however people are going to deal with it or, or make sense of it in their own way, uh, I think something has changed. F- something very, very big and drastic has changed. And so what you're saying is, is that everybody felt that now we have to-- we can't, we can't, um... It, it's not s- it's not a fact of life anymore. It's not, it's not, uh, what do they say in Hebrew? Movan me-ahavah. It's not just there. We can't take it for granted. We have to teach it. Is that what you're saying?

27:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. No, the Rebbe is here.

27:09 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying.

27:10 Speaker 3 But-

27:10 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. Why, why, why can't-- why-- uh, uh, a kid that didn't grow up in Crown Heights back then, was he taught the Rebbe? Like, was he-- A kid who didn't grow up in Crown Heights, was he, was he more similar to how you were growing up in Crown Heights back then, or is he more similar to the kids growing up today? Like the kids in London, for example, or wherever, did they learn Beis HaBonim-- Beis HaBonim or Beis HaBonim HaBavah at ten years old?

27:35 Speaker 3 I don't-

27:36 Speaker 2 They didn't.

27:36 Speaker 3 I don't think so, but I do think they had less of a hiskashrus. I think they were missing. When I speak to k-kids my age or a little older, they say their Lubavitch identity was much more shvach than a kid in Crown Heights. There's no question.

27:48 Speaker 2 But my, my question is, we, we, we take as a, we take as a, as a, as a, as a f- we take as a, as a first principle, we take as a, as a-- What do I say it in Hebrew? Whatever it is. The, the, the, we take- Do we take it, we take as a, as a, as a, as a davar pashut, as a building block that, uh, as an axiom, as a rule that, that because of Gmar Hakaras, therefore now the Rebbe has to be taught, which in a way means the Rebbe becomes inevitably an abstraction. The second you have to t- the second you have to teach someone about something that otherwise comes, it's, it's not as natural as it was before. That's just the definition of what it means to be taught something. Does it have to be that way? Meaning you, you are losing something by doing it that way. I'll give you an example. It-- What, wh-why is it impossible to imagine that the Rebbe, that the Rebbe-- If the Rebbe is here, whatever that means, I'll get to it in a minute. If the Rebbe's here in your life, let's say. If the Rebbe, if, if the Rebbe's teachings and presence is apparent in your life, why can't you assume that your kids will pick that up the way they used to?

29:01 Speaker 3 Okay. Well, so let me, let me ask-

29:02 Speaker 2 I'm, I'm, I'm asking as the devil's advocate. I'm not-

29:04 Speaker 3 No, and I, and I'll explain that to you. Um, I'm glad that the conversation is, you know, different. I thought that you'd be asking me about the Rebbe being here b'pashtus, and I'd be, uh- You'd be challenging that. I would have to explain why, uh, you know, how it's here, and I'm not explaining why you have to teach the Rebbe. But-

29:22 Speaker 2 Li-life, life, life takes mysterious turns.

29:24 Speaker 3 Absolutely. But the idea, the way-- Let me explain this to you, the way I see it. Um, and I'll start from the flip side. It obviously puts more responsibility today on the parents and on the mechunim. I'm gonna go and come back to the main point. Meaning, I don't believe, and again, I, I had very good mechunim, wonderful mechunim, and I don't wanna speak about anyone particular, but I know that we had very-- some, some teachers or mechunim which were not the way, you know, would, would not be up to the standard of mechunim of today, and parenting was different. You don't-- You didn't hear kids my age reject chasidus, reject the Rebbe, reject the derech of Chabad because of a teacher, because of a certain unhug of the teacher or the parent. Today, the kids see in us, we represent the Rebbe in a much stronger way, 'cause we had the Rebbe, we saw the Rebbe. So just because the teacher was not perfect, and the teacher was not up to the standard that we thought was good, it was almost irrelevant. That wasn't our, you know, that wasn't our focus. That wasn't what made us who we were because of the way the teacher acted. I mean, I will tell you a true story. I literally had a teacher that hung my classmate out the window of the Lubavitch Yeshiva third, fourth floor. Like, not a joke. By his feet.

30:49 Speaker 2 Okay, but that's just, just today's behavior.

30:52 Speaker 3 Okay, but I'm just saying. And you don't hear like the kid went off to that-- Didn't happen.

30:56 Speaker 2 Okay, but that, that's, that's '90s. That's '90s meshugas.

30:59 Speaker 3 Right. But my point is that we didn't view the teachers, we didn't view the parents as much as the representation of what's- Ideal and right as much as it is today. So just whoever's listening to this, the parents in Machanech today, however you feel about this conversation, at the end of the day, you have to step up, and we, we all have to represent... We're representing Emes much more than when I was growing up. Now, getting back to your question.

31:26 Speaker 2 Just one second. So, so why is that? That's because the, the world was, was more contained, meaning like you, your, your, your world was so simple and, and basically guarded or bordered by, by your own community that the fact that someone acts outrageously like you described, you're not living constantly with a shaila, "Should I stay in or out?" So you... When he acts this way, it's the, the next, the next far isn't to leave.

31:58 Speaker 3 But then is that-

31:58 Speaker 2 Is that what you're saying?

31:59 Speaker 3 I'm saying no, 'cause we also saw the re- the rebbe was the-

32:01 Speaker 2 Oh, so that's a different thing

32:02 Speaker 3 ... the guiding post.

32:04 Speaker 2 Is that what it was?

32:05 Speaker 3 I think so.

32:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. 'Cause... Okay.

32:09 Speaker 3 Y- yeah, we definitely were more sheltered, but I think also for us, we were t- You know, when we used to wanted to see perfection, we were all looking, you know, the Mizrach mount.

32:19 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

32:19 Speaker 3 This is what we saw. This is what we aspired. This was our... You know, we saw this every day.

32:23 Speaker 2 Look, I wasn't there. I'm not... I can't argue, blah, blah, blah. I just-

32:27 Speaker 3 And at the same time, at the same time, a lot of parents my age and older, again, not younger as much as... In a way, it's a little easier, and I'll- we'll get to that. Um, what we take for granted, we can't assume our kids take for granted. When you are-- When you see something or you appreciate something and it was just ‹, "Well, zoy iz this," that doesn't go over to the kids. Like, you go, "Well, zoy iz this." Like-

32:56 Speaker 2 Right

32:56 Speaker 3 ... that's because of your experience.

32:57 Speaker 2 Well, that's every generation.

32:58 Speaker 3 Yeah, but in a way, today you have parents that were born after Gimel Tammuz, and their kids are born after Gimel Tammuz.

33:07 Speaker 2 I'm essentially, I'm essentially that.

33:08 Speaker 3 Right.

33:08 Speaker 2 Not, not, not, not technically.

33:09 Speaker 3 And however they dealt with it, there's not a barrier. Like, there's not a lack of understanding naturally of what their kid is going through.

33:19 Speaker 2 Right.

33:20 Speaker 3 They've dealt with the exact same thing.

33:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

33:22 Speaker 3 Um, my parents, our parents growing up to the generation before was a world of a difference. My father says a story that, you know, when he was a kid, once he was walking and he fell and he got hurt. He was crying, and he was telling his father or zayde that he's in pain, and it was almost like, "That's pain?" Like-

33:42 Speaker 2 Yeah

33:42 Speaker 3 ... can't even relate to that's pain.

33:44 Speaker 2 Right, right.

33:44 Speaker 3 Like welcome to the world of pain.

33:46 Speaker 2 Correct.

33:46 Speaker 3 Not that he was being insensitive, not that it was in any way lack of empathy to the child.

33:51 Speaker 2 Right.

33:51 Speaker 3 But, you know, the-

33:53 Speaker 2 I, I hundred percent agree. I hundred percent. I mean, I a hundred percent understand what you're... My, my, my bubbe Shemtov, who is a very sensitive... Anybody that knows her, she's a very sensitive woman. She won't like that I'm even saying that in public. But she's a very... I would say it's gonna get to the story. Uh, we were once speaking about like how did they, how did they deal with the kids, the babies who were hungry during the war? She's like, "What do you mean? Like they didn't, like they didn't cry. Like there was no, there was no time. There was, there was no one to handle them crying, so they didn't cry. Like we just didn't cry." Like-

34:26 Speaker 3 It just was.

34:27 Speaker 2 No, like there's no, like it's the kids even understood like there's no point. There's no food and everyone's hungry. There's like, it just... The- we c- there's no space to deal with that and just, just kind of got shut down. And, and so yeah, they lived like... You're making a, you're making a very important point, one that I, I, I feel that a lot of people miss. People will assume, and I want you to continue after, but I wanna ‹ your point, that people assume that, that, uh, our generation to our parents' generation is a big gap. And our parents understood their parents though, and it's almost the opposite.

35:02 Speaker 3 For sure.

35:03 Speaker 2 The parent... Like, like I understand Gimel Tammuz is a big deal and everything, but our parents' generation to their parents' generation was literally two different worlds on every single level.

35:13 Speaker 3 On every level. We don't know what it means. My... I mean, I spoke to my father recently. He says, "You don't know what it means, Gershon." I go, "I go to a chuppah, and there's sets of grandparents." He says, "At my chuppah," you know-

35:23 Speaker 2 Yeah

35:24 Speaker 3 ... "no grandparents." Like he never knew a bubbe and a zayde.

35:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. My, my father was very striking that when he ex- described yechidas to me, it was on the podcast. The first time I heard it from him this way. You walk into yechidas, he's like, "I didn't have any grandparents. Everybody was like a zayde to me." It was bar mitzvah yechidas. Like a zayde figure. I never thought of it that way.

35:45 Speaker 3 They didn't have grandparents.

35:46 Speaker 2 Yeah.

35:47 Speaker 3 Just-

35:47 Speaker 2 Crazy

35:48 Speaker 3 ... crazy. And, uh, forget about the traumas that their parents went through and everything that-

35:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

35:53 Speaker 3 ... went along with that. But, um, and therefore today it's, it is so important and kids are much more knowledgeable of the culture and the dates, and I think it's good. You know, sometimes we get too intense, but that's a, a separate thing, but the, the- they're building their own identity, and they're building it from the bottom up and not from the top down. Now-

36:17 Speaker 2 But aren't you worried that it's getting too intellectualized? That's what I'm trying to get to. Like you, you... When you make these things like in- intentional that, that we have to teach Reb, we have to teach Lubavitch like, like we, we, we end up getting caught up in our mind. Like there's the, there's the, there's the learning that happens on the field. Like, like, like the, the chinuch that people used to... Girl used to get in the kitchen. The kashrus that was taught in the kitchen as opposed to kashrus that's taught in the classroom, right? There's a rebbe that's taught in your living room or you said at a farbrengen, but not even at the farbrengen. In the classroom where, where, where the bu- where the kids don't even know half the things, but the teachers bring a ‹ ›. And then there's a rebbe that's taught with like a shir kava in, in, you know-

37:01 Speaker 3 In sashas

37:02 Speaker 2 ... in sashas, right? There are such things today like mitzvot sashas and things like that. And don't you feel that it runs a risk that, that you basically take something that's supposed to be a way of life- And turn it into like a topic.

37:16 Speaker 3 Yes, but I see in the Mesivta Bochurim especially. You know, we come-- a lot of Bochurim come to us, Shiur Aleph. They're coming from online school, they're coming from day schools, they're coming from all different places, right? We're in Cincinnati, Ohio. We don't have a feeder, feder. So kids are coming from Crown Heights, kids are coming from online school, kids are coming from day schools, kids are coming from, you know, other Chadorim, different places. And they're really-- as we really do believe that we have to educate them, like this idea that there's a Nassi, and what, what the real role of a Rebbe is, and how it's negeia to your life, and they have to develop a Kesher. And kids, they don't just like to hear it, they like to see the sources. Today, they wanna see, like they-- there's a lot of-- they hear a lot of things. It's very, very, very grounding for them and very, very safe for them when they see sources. "Okay, this is what the Rebbe said. This is real. This is not some words being spoken." 'Cause they hear that, a lot of different ideas.

38:22 Speaker 2 But wouldn't it be more powerful... I, I, I don't know-

38:25 Speaker 3 And then I s-

38:25 Speaker 2 But wouldn't it be more powerful to see it in the people life?

38:28 Speaker 3 Oh, then obviously we're really cement is I hope when they see by the Chavrei in Holon, by the older Bochurim, and when they get into the Yeshiva mode, it's less-

38:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

38:39 Speaker 3 ... about the, the, the quote, even though today's generation, today's generation is because of this situation. You know, you hear a lot of dinging about Pshat in this quote and that quote. It's a very, very quotable Rebbe's-- It's very locked into quotes. And in a certain way, in a certain way, you know, it's, it's gonna be that way. We have it by the original, the story of Yaakov Le'ma'ase, right? How do you know? Mikra and Midrash, right? It's-- It all boils down to a quote from a posek.

39:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

39:14 Speaker 3 So understanding the quotes is also important when you're trying to deal with that, you know, idea. But at the same time, you can't take for granted, and this gives a foundation, just like everything else. The idea is that it... We'll get into it. I don't mean the podcast. You get into the Yeshiva, you get into the way of life, and all the-- you get the Maimon, whatever the Darkei Hasidus and the Limud Hasidus and the Aver of Temimit, which you know in Temimit, the Rebbe Zev Friedman Alav HaShalom, Rosh Yeshiva and Al HaTorah, he would always stress on Tes V'Eilu that everyone says if you learn Temimit, you're a Talmid. He says, "If you actually open up the Yom Yom," it says, "Halomed B'seicha U'mesnaheg Berucha-"

39:55 Speaker 2 Right.

39:55 Speaker 3 "... you're a Talmid." There's a Ruach of Temimit.

39:57 Speaker 2 Right.

39:58 Speaker 3 There's a, there's a atmosphere, there's a culture, there's a mindset of Temimit, and you hope that the boys will get into that and it'll become part of them. But today it has to be start with education.

40:10 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Hmm. Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company that I have run for close to ten years. Today, Yuvala Media works with organizations all around the country, bringing their stories to life in a way that is both meaningful and memorable. Whether it's a video for a milestone dinner, an online fundraiser, or a building campaign, we begin each project with the same question: What does your audience need to know about you to feel more connected to your cause? Once we answer that question, we tailor-make a video that best addresses this need. Over the years, we have built a reputation for top-of-the-line visuals while also being responsive and reliable. As one of our clients put it, "A combination of technical excellence and real heart." If you are looking to make a video for an upcoming dinner, fundraiser, or building campaign, please reach out to us to schedule a fifteen-minute phone call to see if we can make something beautiful together. Email us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the show. L- let's, let's ac- let's accept this as a, as a-- Let's accept this for now, the idea that, that today... What you're saying, how I understand it, is identity today comes after-- It's edu-education first, identity second, whereas in your days growing up, it was identity first and education second.

41:35 Speaker 3 No, obviously, if mamesh Hasidus your home and there's a-

41:39 Speaker 2 You're saying as a rule, though. You're saying as a rule.

41:40 Speaker 3 Yeah.

41:40 Speaker 2 You're saying as a rule. As a rule, identity fir-- it used to be identity first. I'm a Lubavitcher. I don't even know what, what Tarichim or whatever. It's not negeia. I'm a Lubavitcher. I go to Farbrengen. I don't even, I don't even know what the Sichas are, but I'm at the Farbrengen. I say L'Chaim once a week, whatever it is. I'm a Lubavitcher, right? Id-- Education second. My teacher's good, he's bad, it's nish-- He's, he's hanging me out the window hanging me out the window. Al tesheh der. Today, it's education first, identity second. So w- w- w- like did that-- Let, let's accept that that's, that that's a fact. That, that changes everything. That, that change-- that changes everything. It, it, it changes... Uh, and not even a matter of good for-- for good or for bad. That is, that is a, that is a very risky proposition, I think. No? I mean, it, it, it's putting a lot of, a lot of pressure to get it right.

42:35 Speaker 3 Well, that's part of the Hir'eh et Dibrot Hayach.

42:37 Speaker 2 That's what, that's what you think it means?

42:39 Speaker 3 It, it, it has to be your own. Tal Heves Olamim Eleh. It's gonna... There's no question that the-

42:44 Speaker 2 No, but I mean the Chinuch, the-

42:45 Speaker 3 Even the Chinuch, it's, it's, it's a Chinuch that's built and has to be mo- The dis-- the, the connection and the decision that dos is very rabin, it's gonna be from the inside out.

42:59 Speaker 2 No, but... Fair. But w- what I'm pointing is not the mamak l'maalah kind of thing. What I'm pointing is that, that you basically have... I'll give you an example, a- and I think you will, you'll disagree with me, but that's the point. I was thinking about it, I was talking about it to some people the other-- a few weeks ago. Today, for example, you have always been in Lubavitch for, you know, uh, Tishrei, people go to the Rebbe, right? And, uh, Simchat Torah, people, people certainly would go to the... A lot of people that didn't go Tish-- the rest of Tishrei came for Simchat Torah.

43:31 Speaker 3 Of course.

43:32 Speaker 2 They bring their kids, right? And to this day, a lot of bachurim will go. I was in Australia right after Yom Tov. There were a whole bunch of boys coming back. They had been the whole Tishrei in, in seven- 70 young boys. And I'm not even saying what's, uh, what, what that means spiritually. I'm not-- Let's not even go there for now. They go, they go to 770. They spend Tishrei there. They spend another year there, another... And, and ultimately, the Tishrei that they get is from 770, from the milieu of 770, and hopefully it's good things. Let's assume it's good things. Like they're not-- That's what-- They're going there for the right reasons. But there's a seven s- there's the Simchat Torah that you get, that you could get, at least I got also from the home. My father happened to be a shliach, so I got f- he was doing Simchat Torah in the Beis Chabad. But that is a much more... I don't have to-- Nobody had to teach me what this means. My father didn't never taught me that this, that you're going to 770 means XYZ. The same way that before Gimel Tammuz also, I think people understood it. In Simchat Torah, they, they understood exactly what was going on. They didn't have to understand into it. They didn't have to be taught what it meant. They, they experienced it. They experienced it directly. It's... Right? The, uh, the-- There are some things that you experience on your own directly.

44:52 Speaker 2 It's, it's, it's immediate. Nobody has to-- Nobody can teach you what it is or explain to you what it is 'cause you-- I'm experiencing it. You're not gonna tell me what's going on. I'm g- I know what's going on. That's how I experienced Simchat Torah growing up at home. The few years that I was in 770 or when I was by the IO, whatever, I had to interpret what was going on, right? I had to, "This is what it means." "Al pi zeh, you've won this." And so what's happening is that for a lot of bachurim, their Simchat Torah ex- their Simchat Torah, what it, what it means to celebrate Simchat Torah today is something that's based on interpretation, not based on experience. See what I'm saying? Like I-- If we say, if we take this, this, this, this equation of identity or reality first, education's second how it used to be, versus education first, which is in a way i-idea first or symbolism first, and then reality. Do you, do you, do you, do you, do you start with reality or do you start with ideas? You could say the same thing about Tishrei or Simchat Torah. Are you getting Simchat Torah as an idea or are you getting it as a lived experience? And today, a lot of people are getting it as a l- as an idea. They go to 770 and they're taught in yeshiva, "This is how you're supposed to experience it." The, the... There's a lot of... I'm not

46:10 Speaker 2 even t- I'm not even asking if it's right or wrong, but that's a fundamental shift in how we perceive and experience reality, is it not?

46:19 Speaker 3 It could be.

46:20 Speaker 2 Am I making sense?

46:21 Speaker 3 I hear what you're saying. I can tell you again, now everyone has different approaches about this too. For example, by us in yeshiva, in the Sifta, we actually keep the bachurim two years in yeshiva Rosh Hashanah, that they should have an temimit experience Rosh Hashanah.

46:41 Speaker 2 Right.

46:42 Speaker 3 And then they go Shiur Gimel, and then there's zoiche begaro from each year. Shiur Gimel goes to 770 for Rosh Hashanah.

46:48 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

46:48 Speaker 3 It's... You know, some people say throw them in from when they're thirteen, you know, fourteen. I say a lot of these kids never experienced Rosh Hashanah. They were in a Chabad house. They were in the middle of nowhere. They never experienced Rosh Hashanah to take it to the next level of 770 Rosh Hashanah.

47:04 Speaker 2 Would you have sent them to yesh-- Would you have sent them to Shiur Alef before Gimel Tammuz?

47:09 Speaker 3 It's... People ask me that question.

47:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

47:11 Speaker 3 They say, "You probably would've."

47:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

47:13 Speaker 3 And the answer is probably yes.

47:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, there'd been a lot of pressure.

47:18 Speaker 3 There would definitely be a lot of pressure, and there still is some pressure.

47:20 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

47:21 Speaker 3 At the same time, I'm aware, and again, I'm a full, you know, 770 heart, you know, through and through. I'm still aware that in order to zich falirin in 770, you have to have what's a zich falirin, right? If it's not like... You have to know what Rosh Hashanah is. There's Rosh Hashanah. And yemo, when you get to 770 and everything that's gonna be going on, because mezat nisht der Rebbe and mitoshem any moment we will. And of course, you're in the holy 770, Beis Benush of Bavel. That's where the mokem hamikdash guf ei delasi, all the very, very important things that it is. At the same time, without that foundation, without that foundation, when you get there, you don't lose yourself into 770, many of them just lose themselves.

48:16 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

48:18 Speaker 3 And I have bachurim years later, unfortunately, it's twenty-one years, you know, in that way, um, they tell me, you know, "At the time we were screaming and yelling that 'Why don't we go in Shiur Alef?' And now that we went in Shiur Gimel, we appreciate that we had... We knew Rosh Hashanah was the idea, for example, that there's Mishmaris for Tehillim."

48:37 Speaker 2 Right.

48:37 Speaker 3 "There's Meftir Sohem."

48:38 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

48:39 Speaker 3 "There's, there's Nigunim. There's a whole Nusach Hateshuvah the way Chabad..." "Whatever the-"

48:43 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

48:44 Speaker 3 "-Nusach Hateshuvah is."

48:45 Speaker 2 Right.

48:46 Speaker 3 Um, you know, a lot of kids are shluchim. I had a conversation, I heard two years ago, like there was one bachur, he was trying to figure out what this machzor is like. "Why is it so big?" Like what-- "Usually just we blow shofar and then we read a little bit, like why is this machzor so big?"

49:00 Speaker 2 Ah. I had never done a full davening.

49:02 Speaker 3 You never had a full davening?

49:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Uh.

49:05 Speaker 3 Again, I'm not a very Sifrishe family, shlichas.

49:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

49:08 Speaker 3 But the idea is that-

49:11 Speaker 2 No, but Mishmaris for me was like, was completely... I had no idea. Like if what? Two to three in the morning?

49:19 Speaker 3 Yeah.

49:19 Speaker 2 You show up saying Tehillim, like, "What's this about?"

49:21 Speaker 3 And if it's a shofar-

49:22 Speaker 2 Yeah

49:22 Speaker 3 ... like in an organized fashion. Like just the way Rosh Hashanah is in Temimit.

49:27 Speaker 2 Right.

49:27 Speaker 3 A very earnest Rosh Hashanah.

49:28 Speaker 2 No, no talking.

49:29 Speaker 3 Never. Everyone on there, you know, on the-

49:31 Speaker 2 I mean, in the field less talking.

49:32 Speaker 3 Yeah. Very earnest way and Tehillim and all these things that go along with it. Yemo, and today as magates of the 770. Now, at the same time, theee, there are times when you throw, you know, you throw the kid in and you throw the kid in the water. And if someone's gonna say that their opinion is, you know, f- doesn't matter the earliest age we bring them, you throw at thirteen without an organized thing. Again, everyone is with their shita.

49:58 Speaker 2 Right.

49:59 Speaker 3 I found that this has been the most-

50:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

50:02 Speaker 3 ... you know.

50:02 Speaker 2 Right. So, okay, so, so y-y-you're not fully on that side of, of, of ideas. There has to be a grounded experience, right? There-- Y-you can't just teach Rosh Hashanah as an idea. You have to experience it on some level.

50:16 Speaker 3 Correct.

50:18 Speaker 2 Hmm. All right, so let's get back to your story. So you, you, you're, you're growing up in, you're growing up in Crown Heights. You're growing up in Crown Heights in Fabregan. When, when do you... I mean, I, I think it's a, I think, uh, I, I think it would be almost like, uh, um, uh, it would be, it would be, uh... What would be- what's the word? It'd be repetitive to some extent to, to, to point out that the years at the late mem and the nons, things changed and, and I was talking about Mashiach. I don't know if there's something that you wanna add that, that, to that. I mean-

50:52 Speaker 3 Yeah

50:52 Speaker 2 ... this is a diver... D- this is, uh, this is famous, but if there's something you wanna add.

50:56 Speaker 3 I do wanna add to that, and mainly because we share the same last name, but obviously you're growing up in Hong Kong.

51:03 Speaker 2 Oh, no, I'm much younger than you. I was-

51:05 Speaker 3 I'm, uh, no, I'm not saying... I'm pushing next to Zaide, you, our own grandfather.

51:09 Speaker 2 Right.

51:11 Speaker 3 Um, and therefore, what I'm about to say is not so much about the Sichas, about more Zaide Aftson and the Chinuch that we got in the house, and I heard from him growing up, again-

51:20 Speaker 2 At the time

51:21 Speaker 3 ... at the time. Again, you have to understand, he was in Detroit from Tosh Mgu Gimel, I think, to Tosh Mem Daled or He.

51:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

51:27 Speaker 3 And then when Bubby got sick and they came to Crown Heights, they lived on Eastern Parkway.

51:31 Speaker 2 Right.

51:31 Speaker 3 Mamish right next to 770.

51:32 Speaker 2 A ba- on the, a basement there, right?

51:34 Speaker 3 No, first floor.

51:35 Speaker 2 First floor.

51:35 Speaker 3 First floor. And I remember-

51:36 Speaker 2 I remember it very vaguely

51:37 Speaker 3 ... we would go every Shabbos after Fabregan and go visit Bubby. Now, that, that wa- that was where all the uncles went. You had kugel or something in the-

51:43 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah

51:43 Speaker 3 ... in the house. It was literally right next door.

51:45 Speaker 2 How long did she live there for? She passed away very quickly.

51:48 Speaker 3 But Zaide lived there.

51:49 Speaker 2 But you said that you'd go visit Bubby.

51:50 Speaker 3 No, I'm saying Bubby and Zaide when, when she was alive.

51:52 Speaker 2 How long did she li- how long did she live there?

51:54 Speaker 3 Oh, not long.

51:55 Speaker 2 Not long.

51:56 Speaker 3 Not long.

51:57 Speaker 2 Right.

51:58 Speaker 3 Um, but Zaide lived there for a couple years after that.

52:01 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

52:01 Speaker 3 And therefore, you know, that's where we went, you know-

52:03 Speaker 2 Right

52:03 Speaker 3 ... afterwards. Um, but Zaide, you're talking about Mashiach-

52:09 Speaker 2 Why did it take them so long to come back from Detroit? Do you, do you know?

52:11 Speaker 3 No, it didn't let.

52:12 Speaker 2 Didn't let.

52:12 Speaker 3 Let, let's, let's backtrack a second.

52:12 Speaker 2 If you can. Yeah, yeah.

52:12 Speaker 3 So-

52:12 Speaker 2 I'd love to hear

52:12 Speaker 3 ... um, I... There's a letter in the Igros, in the early years. I forget which Kraz because I didn't, like, prepare for this, but there's, it's a letter in the Igros-

52:12 Speaker 2 That's all right. It's forgiven. No

52:12 Speaker 3 ... where, where someone, um, was, like, speaking about he's in Detroit, and Rebbe says, "Go Fabregan with the local Anash there." Like, "There's a few Anash. Why don't you go Fabregan with them?" That's like the gist, like, "Why are you all alone? Go, go Fabregan with the local Anash." I said, "Local Anash?" Like, which local Anash are we talking? So I asked my father. I said, "Ta, which local Anash was Rebbe referring to?"

52:12 Speaker 2 In Detroit.

52:12 Speaker 3 In Detroit. That Rebbe's telling this person, I don't think there was a name there in the letter-

52:12 Speaker 2 Right

52:12 Speaker 3 ... but, like, "Go Fabregan with the local Anash." So he told me something fascinating. He said that the Hasidim were in France, you know. After the war, they came out-

52:12 Speaker 2 Sure

52:12 Speaker 3 ... and they were in the DP camps. They came all out on false passports. Our grandfather came out with the name Gastalter.

52:12 Speaker 2 Sure.

52:12 Speaker 3 Right? So my father, as far I'm still Yosel Gastalter.

52:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

52:12 Speaker 3 I still, you know, it's Why did it take them so long to come back from Detroit? Do you, do you know?

52:12 Speaker 2 No, it didn't let.

52:12 Speaker 3 Didn't let. Let, let's, let's backtrack a second.

52:15 Speaker 2 If I can. Yeah, yeah.

52:16 Speaker 3 So-

52:16 Speaker 2 I'd love to hear

52:16 Speaker 3 ... um, I... There's a letter in the Igros, in the early years. I forget which Kraz 'cause I didn't, like, prepare for this, but there's, it's a letter in the Igros-

52:26 Speaker 2 That's all right. It's forgiven. No

52:27 Speaker 3 ... where, where someone, um, was, like, speaking about he's in Detroit, and Rebbe says, "Go Fabregan with the local Anash there." Like, "There's a few Anash. Why don't you go Fabregan with them?" That's like the gist, like, "Why are you all alone? Go, go Fabregan with the local Anash." I said, "Local Anash?" Like, which local Anash are we talking? So I asked my father. I said, "Ta, which local Anash was Rebbe referring to?"

52:52 Speaker 2 In Detroit.

52:52 Speaker 3 In Detroit. That Rebbe's telling this person, I don't think there was a name there in the letter-

52:56 Speaker 2 Right

52:56 Speaker 3 ... but, like, "Go Fabregan with the local Anash." So he told me something fascinating. He said that the Hasidim were in France, you know. After the war, they came out-

53:05 Speaker 2 Sure

53:05 Speaker 3 ... and they were in the DP camps. They came all out on false passports. Our grandfather came out with the name Gastalter.

53:11 Speaker 2 Sure.

53:11 Speaker 3 Right? So my father, as far I'm still Yosel Gastalter.

53:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

53:15 Speaker 3 I still, you know, it's Bachurim swarm. And the joint didn't want them to go to the big cities. You know? They spread them out.

53:26 Speaker 2 Right.

53:26 Speaker 3 Now, most of them, when they got to these small cities, their idea was they, they checked into the small cities, but all with the Kavana.

53:33 Speaker 2 That's a way to get into the States, but eventually-

53:35 Speaker 3 They're all gonna go to New York. Like if you... I read, like, the "Queen of C- Cleveland," the book that the, that the, the Kasins, they had no intention of being in Cleveland.

53:43 Speaker 2 Right.

53:44 Speaker 3 They g- Rebbe ended up telling them, "Oh, there, you'll do better there, and you'll make fitziados."

53:48 Speaker 2 Right.

53:48 Speaker 3 And that's how they ended up there.

53:50 Speaker 2 Right.

53:50 Speaker 3 The Aftsons ended up in Detroit also with the joint.

53:53 Speaker 2 Right.

53:54 Speaker 3 But then t- with a bunch of other Hasidim. But the other Hasidim were so BePashtus that it was just a stopover. Either they didn't ask or they, I don't think they asked, and they just moved to New York.

54:05 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

54:06 Speaker 3 Zaide, before he moved anywhere, he asked. So at the end of the day, he was, like, the only one that stuck there.

54:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

54:13 Speaker 3 'Cause Rebbe told him one day, "Hashem brought you there-

54:16 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

54:16 Speaker 3 ... so you have to stay."

54:17 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

54:17 Speaker 3 And he had no money. He was very poor.

54:20 Speaker 2 Right.

54:20 Speaker 3 You know, he would save up. He was, Mamish save up, uh, his whole year, a little bit from his salary, and he had a large family, to be able to go once a year to the Rebbe. That was, like, his whole, uh, what he lived for.

54:30 Speaker 2 Right.

54:31 Speaker 3 But anyways, what, what, when I was growing up already, like, I remember, I, I think I remember Detroit, you know. It's like one of these memories you wonder if you think, if you remember, or you-

54:38 Speaker 2 Oh, you went to visit Detroit

54:40 Speaker 3 ... when I was a little, Mamish a little kid-

54:41 Speaker 2 Right

54:41 Speaker 3 ... a Pesach or this. Like, in my head, I think I remember.

54:44 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

54:45 Speaker 3 But I, I'm not sure if it's real or just like, uh-

54:47 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah

54:47 Speaker 3 ... I think I remember. But Zaide growing up, he was very much part of our life.

54:52 Speaker 2 He'd come into New York.

54:53 Speaker 3 No, I'm saying he... But no, I was already kid that was at Hadassah.

54:55 Speaker 2 You're talking about once he moved already.

54:57 Speaker 3 He was already in New York.

54:58 Speaker 2 Right.

54:59 Speaker 3 Our Mamaleh was-

54:59 Speaker 2 So they, so they got her shus once she was ill.

55:01 Speaker 3 Yeah.

55:02 Speaker 2 She came for treatment.

55:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. She passed away, and he stayed in New York. Um, at that point, I don't know if they a- I don't know exactly what happened, but I think it was just she had to-

55:11 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, uh

55:11 Speaker 3 ... they probably asked also, but I think that she had to be there. But regardless, I say that Lubavitch caught up a little bit with Zaide. Zaide Aftson was on the Mashiach train from the very, very beginning. He would always write to the Rebbe about, with the title Mashiach.

55:33 Speaker 2 Really?

55:33 Speaker 3 He would always be telling people in Detroit that the Rebbe's Mashiach.

55:37 Speaker 2 Where do you get this from, in your mind? Well, no, where did he... It was like-

55:40 Speaker 3 So-

55:40 Speaker 2 ... I assume that he grew up with, the Friediker Rebbe?

55:42 Speaker 3 So I asked him once.

55:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Okay, good.

55:45 Speaker 3 Where'd you get it?

55:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

55:46 Speaker 3 Like, why is it so BePashtus? Like, where'd, where'd you get it? And then I asked him, then I heard from my cousins that this was something that he would always say. This was one of his classic stories. He would say, "I was there when the Friediker Rebbe appointed the Rebbe as Melach HaMashiach." That was his line.

56:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

56:03 Speaker 3 I said, "What are you talking about?"

56:04 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

56:05 Speaker 3 What's the... Where were you that... So he says the famous story There was Itche the Masmid, was one time sitting, and his zayde was by the farbrengen. And he was once sitting with the, by the farbrengen of the Friediker Rebbe. And he told the-- he took a lot of mashke, and he told the Friediker Rebbe, "Ich vil dir zogn a maise." And the Friediker Rebbe said, "No, not now." Then the Rebbe came into the farbrengen. It was a little bit later, I guess he came late. And they told him, "Yetz kens du zogn dem maise. Yetz kens du zogn dem maise." At that point, he already had sobered up a little bit, and he wasn't gonna talk in front of the Rebbe, so he didn't, he didn't say the story. After the Friediker Rebbe left, all the Hasidim wanted to know what was the story that you wanted to tell the Friediker Rebbe. So he said that there was a Kabbalah by Hasidim that in the times of the Maggid, the Talmidim Maggid had a-- knew that the Moshiach is gonna come either from the oldest Talmid of the Maggid or the youngest Talmid of the Maggid, which was the Chernobyler and the Al- the Alter Rebbe. So the Alter Rebbe made a shidduch. His granddaughter, the daughter of the Mitteler Rebbe, married the grandson of Reb Nachum of Chernobyl, who's known as Yaakov Yisroel of Cherkas. What happens is, the m- they have children, right? And from that shidduch of the Cherkasser, there's three

57:47 Speaker 3 times that they get married. So the first shidduch is the Mitteler Rebbe's daughter. Then the-- then when they have a child, they married the... Ends up being the Rebbe Rashab marries also an einikel of Rav. I think he marries, uh, a gr- a son of the Tsamachas Debek, whose son-- whose daughter married the Rebbe Rashab.

58:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

58:18 Speaker 3 So three times this family comes together, and who's the one product from all these three marriages? Is the Friediker Rebbe. So he wants to tell him, he was gonna tell the Friediker Rebbe, "You are the one that all the Hasidim were waiting for. You're gonna be Moshiach." So when he-- Zayde said when the Friediker Rebbe said, "Wait till the Rebbe to come in to hear the story," by him it was already sold that the Friediker Rebbe was nominating the Rebbe as Moshiach.

58:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

58:46 Speaker 3 'Cause why did he say wait for him?

58:49 Speaker 2 All right.

58:50 Speaker 3 That was-- He would say this story, and this was what he lived with.

58:54 Speaker 2 Hmm.

58:55 Speaker 3 And we know the story of Moshe Dubinsky. Moshe Dubinsky came to Detroit, and there were other people, a mash-- Hasidim in Detroit, that were not so fond about this Hasid going around telling people that the Rebbe's Moshiach. And, uh, he came back, and he gave over, and the message was, "Please tell him to be quiet." And the Rebbe told Moshe Dubinsky that

59:22 Speaker 2 Right.

59:22 Speaker 3 So this is before the whole, you know, Nun, all the Nuns. So I say that Lubavitch, so to speak, caught up-

59:31 Speaker 2 This year marks seventy-five years since Yud Shvat and the first Basse Legani. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World Is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlamedia, inspired by Basse Legani, the first mimar, the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basse Legani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Basse Legani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production: the films, original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show. There's gotta be more than that story. I mean, I, I, I'm not-

1:00:41 Speaker 3 Nah, nah

1:00:42 Speaker 2 ... I've heard that story, too. I, I think I've heard it from others also.

1:00:46 Speaker 3 No, but the-

1:00:47 Speaker 2 But, but, but he-- there's no way that the reason he was into it is 'cause some story where there's an interpretation.

1:00:52 Speaker 3 No, no, but I'm saying Hasidim always.

1:00:54 Speaker 2 Okay, that's what I'm getting into.

1:00:55 Speaker 3 Yeah, Hasidim always did, but I'm saying, and this passion-

1:00:58 Speaker 2 Hasidim always did what?

1:00:59 Speaker 3 Hasidim always believed that their Rebbe was Moshiach.

1:01:02 Speaker 2 Lubavitch Hasidim or Hasidim in general?

1:01:04 Speaker 3 The Lubavitch Hasidim for sure, and in general, it's in the Rebbe sense-

1:01:07 Speaker 2 The Chernobyl Hasidim also?

1:01:09 Speaker 3 There, there, there are Mekotels and other Seforim where they try to show that their Rebbes are Moshiach, yeah.

1:01:14 Speaker 2 So what's behind that?

1:01:16 Speaker 3 What's behind it is very poshet, and I explain this to people. But I wanna start by, by, by saying a story. The ch-- I think it's gonna help for whatever the rest of our podcast goes. Um, and your-- the audience might enjoy.

1:01:29 Speaker 2 The audience for, the audience f-for all that you should worry about is me.

1:01:32 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I hope you enjoy.

1:01:34 Speaker 2 The rest of the audience can, can do the, can, can fast-forward. They can turn it off. It's all good.

1:01:38 Speaker 3 So I'll tell you a story that happened to one of my alumni.

1:01:41 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:01:43 Speaker 3 One of my alumni was once by a Shliach that lived near Monroe.

1:01:51 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:01:51 Speaker 3 Where the Satmar is. And he was there for Purim, right? Local Shliach. The Shliach told him, "Maybe go to Monroe," 'cause they give out a lot of money in tzedakah. "So maybe collect money for the Beis Chabad." This is a night when Everyone's in a good mood.

1:02:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:07 Speaker 3 So this bocher shows up to a house of a big Gvir, and the Gvir Gvir Tish, and everyone's coming in, and I get gelt, and he's standing in line Happens to be on the line is either a son or a aidam of the Gwir. It's a family event, right? Everyone is there for the night. He's waiting on line, and this guy is standing on the side, hitman on schmooze. So he-- the guy starts telling him, "You know, in the Kehila, we have this problem, we have this problem, this problem, this problem." He's going through the issues. 'Cause I think the bocher must have told him, "It's so nice here. It's so beautiful. Like, it looks so sweet." "Yeah, you're coming on Purim. You know, it's like when everyone's the shick here-

1:02:47 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:47 Speaker 3 ... and everyone's saying l'chaim." Yeah, of course, it's a beautiful story.

1:02:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:50 Speaker 3 But you should know that the community has problems. So this bocher is a pretty mystical bocher, and he says, "Wait, you're three blocks away from the Rebbe." Like, again, this is a bocher growing up, thinking, well, Tammuz, like, the idea like you gotta should go.

1:03:05 Speaker 2 You have a... You have your Rebbe. You, you guys, you guys have what to do.

1:03:08 Speaker 3 You know what I'm saying? Why don't you go to your Rebbe-

1:03:10 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:10 Speaker 3 ... who lives down the block-

1:03:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:11 Speaker 3 ... and discuss with him the problems?

1:03:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:15 Speaker 3 Like, so the guy tells him, "Du faisht sheys nisht. The Rebbe is part of the problem." "The Rebbe is part of the problem."

1:03:25 Speaker 2 It's funny.

1:03:26 Speaker 3 It's a true story. I'm not gonna... I, I don't want to the Hashem, no, she says, "Guys, no, I'm thousands, one satmer." I'm trying to bring out a point. You know, I was not here to put down other either.

1:03:35 Speaker 2 No, it's, it's, it's, it's-

1:03:36 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:03:36 Speaker 2 ... it's, it's, it's part of, it's part of h- it's part of their history. Yeah.

1:03:39 Speaker 3 The idea is that it's very important when we're gonna talk about anything to do with Mashiach and all this, believing in Mashiach. I tell people all the time that the Rebbe is part of the problem. That we all-- If you open up the sifris, like, you're gonna see things that most people, you know, the Rebbe is a, an-

1:03:57 Speaker 2 I understand

1:03:58 Speaker 3 ... an, an integral part of the problem. And what do I mean by that? Tazria Metzora, the Torah portion on Alef is a very famous farbrengen. That's where the Rebbe spoke for the first time about the importance of learning about Mashiach.

1:04:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:13 Speaker 3 After Chaf Kasvim, people, two talks, what's your Ken? What am I supposed to do with this?

1:04:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:17 Speaker 3 Finally, the Rebbe gave, like, a clear directive, something new that wasn't done before. Like, just do more Torah and mitzvahs. Like, there has to be a new... And the Rebbe introduced Limud Gulum Mashiach.

1:04:26 Speaker 2 Oh, it's an amazing thing-

1:04:27 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:04:27 Speaker 2 ... when you think about it. Like, like, literally, it's, like, you look at even just the Sefer that Rabbi Galitsky puts out.

1:04:33 Speaker 3 Moshiach Be'alochei.

1:04:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's, it's three, at least three-

1:04:36 Speaker 3 Three volumes

1:04:37 Speaker 2 ... it's three volumes. And, like, nobody else, nobody else studies these topics. And it's all based on, on, on, on Sefarim that-

1:04:44 Speaker 3 Sefarim, sure

1:04:45 Speaker 2 ... on Sefarim that everyone else has at home. But the, the foc-- like, putting it into, like, a, a theme, it, it's, it's like, it's unreal. It's, it's magical almost.

1:04:55 Speaker 3 I say it's even more if you're going that way. I say the biggest revolution, which I don't think gets a lot of credit, is the Yaakov Mashiach Hagulah ala Torah.

1:05:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:05:06 Speaker 3 Um, I'll explain what, why I'm saying this. Like, people, it, it... They can't stop printing. I think people stop buying it at a certain point. But to me, it's the biggest treasure because I remember when the first one came out, just I remember when Bereishit came out, and I thought that was Chumash Bereishit. I was so impressed. There's so much Mashiach on Chumash Bereishit. Then I found out-

1:05:27 Speaker 2 It's Parshat Bereishit

1:05:28 Speaker 3 ... Parshat Bereishit. I remember when... Now it's read. Then there was first printed-

1:05:31 Speaker 2 Oh, it's Mashiach. It's Rebbe's-

1:05:33 Speaker 3 No. The Rebbe says, it's a footnote in, in Acharei Mot Kiddushin Torah portion Alef. In one of the footnotes, the, the Ramam writes that don't go against Mashiach, 'cause if you're gonna speak, if you're gonna be koifer in Mashiach, you're going against so much of what the Torah speaks about and the Neviim, 'cause kol ha-sefarim melei midover zer. All the Sifrei Neviim-

1:05:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:05:58 Speaker 3 ... Torah is filled with nevuos of Mashiach. So if you deny Mashiach, you're denying Yashaya. The simple fact is all the nevuos, Yashaya, like, all these things, how could you deny Mashiach? In the footnote, the Rebbe says, "I wanna give a deeper beer." It doesn't just mean kol ha-sefarim melei, that there's a lot. It says if you look deeper, on every passuk, you'll find the beer of Mashiach connected with that passuk.

1:06:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:06:24 Speaker 3 Now, everyone just said, "Yeah, sure." Like-

1:06:28 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:28 Speaker 3 ... and he went, Rabbi Dubov, and again, I'm not every passuk, but he found, like, every Parshah, like, so much Mashiach on the Parshah. Now, people say it's a cute vort, but I think it's more than just a vort. If you look at Torah as the blueprint of the world, yistaku be-rais u'boreh ama.

1:06:48 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:49 Speaker 3 So what's in the blueprint's in the world.

1:06:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:53 Speaker 3 If sixty percent of the blueprint is Mashiach, so then sixty percent of the world is inherently Mashiach. If kol ha-sefarim means literally every passuk in Tanakh is Mashiach, means Mashiach the essence of everything in the world. It's not just a chat and a vort. It redefines the world. In the Rebbe's world, it's a Mashiach world. Why? 'Cause the Rebbe sees Mashiach in every passuk. Like, it starts from the blueprint.

1:07:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:07:18 Speaker 3 And Rabbi Dubov gave us the gift to be able to see that blueprint. Like, I really, uh, like, it's tremendous gift, Yaakov Mashiach Hagulah. But anyways, getting back to the farbrengen, Tazria Metzora. What is not in the Mugra Gezicha was an event that took place there. That was the first time publicly that Reb Dovin Action gave a battle, a maskir to the Rebbe, to announce in front of all the Hasidim that the Rebbe's Mashiach. That was, like, official announcement. You know, people give Malava Malkis and for this. He was giving a battle to be able to announce in front of the whole seven seventy that the Rebbe's Mashiach. Now, the Gabai, the maskirus, told him before Shabbos that he's not gonna be able to, uh... You can't just do that. And he told him, "You-- I'm giving it to the Rebbe. If he doesn't want, so then he, uh, he won't let me come up."

1:08:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:12 Speaker 3 But the Rebbe allowed it, and then before he came up, the Rebbe said something by the farbrengen. And it's in the Mugra Gezicha, in the Oros, you could see it. The Rebbe says, "I wanna teach a Gemara." The Gemara says in Sanhedrin that there's four names of Moshiach, Menachem, Sheleiah, Yah, Chananya, which Reb Leivik, Rebbe's father says is the Rosh Yeteivis Moshiach, Menachem, Sheleiah, Yah, Chananya. The four names that the Gemara says is actually the Rosh Yeteivis of the word Moshiach. And the Gemara, Rebbe asks, "Where did we come up with these names? Where did we come up with these names?"

1:08:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:44 Speaker 3 The Rebbe says, "If you look in the Gemara, the Gemara says, "The names, the Hasidim of Sheleiah, the resembling Sheleiah Amri, Sheleiah Shmuel. The resembling Yah." Each of the Hasidim of that Rebbe were promoting their Rebbe as Moshiach, and the Rebbe said, and this is a . It's not like some uman. We as Hasidim do the same thing about, for our Rebbes. We always try to promote and to find sukka that show that the names of our Rebbe fit with the names of Moshiach.

1:09:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:09:14 Speaker 3 So this is clear. Now you're asking why. So in other words, I wanted to preface this, that this is not some hergish. This is clear from the Rebbe. This is-- Rebbe says this is a way Hasidim should act.

1:09:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:09:28 Speaker 3 Now why? Why?

1:09:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:31 Speaker 3 And the answer is that I think that we must remember something like in all the confusion, we've forgotten one very, very basic principle, and that is Moshiach is the most perfect person that will ever be. He's the shlemus min ha'adam. He's so shlemus, he's so amazing, he's so perfect-

1:09:52 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:52 Speaker 3 ... that the Rambam, which most people are unaware, everyone knows that one of the 13 principles of faith is you can't deny Moshiach, right? But if you actually open up the Rambam, Rambam says, "Not just that you can't deny Moshiach, you can't deny the perfection of Moshiach." A lot of people will say Moshiach can't be as perfect as Chazal say he is. Better than Avraham, better than other . Like, it's very hard for us to wrap our brains that there's somebody that's greater than the others. You know what I mean? Like, he's gonna be the perfect, most shlemostik and tzadik that ever lived.

1:10:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:29 Speaker 3 A Hasid is obsessed with his Rebbe.

1:10:33 Speaker 2 Every Hasid are Lubavitchers.

1:10:34 Speaker 3 Every Hasid should be.

1:10:36 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:10:37 Speaker 3 Every Hasid really should be.

1:10:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:40 Speaker 3 We think our Rebbe is infallible, right?

1:10:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:43 Speaker 3 Every . Again, we know that, but I'm saying... And even the way the outside world looks at Hasidim, that they're obsessed with their Rebbe. They think he's so perfect.

1:10:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:54 Speaker 3 Now, if me and you were sitting together and saying, "Well, what's the best compliment we can give our Rebbe? What, what is the most perfect-- What's the, what, what, what is the most perfect being in the world that ever will exist?" Moshiach. So we want, we're looking, in our minds, our Rebbe must be that Moshiach.

1:11:12 Speaker 2 Right. Okay, fine. But so let's say this has been going on in the, you know, Hasidim, Lubavitch or otherwise for generations, but it never, it never became such a focal point as it did in the last years, or those years.

1:11:29 Speaker 3 Oh, there's no que- no question.

1:11:31 Speaker 2 Like, but the Hasidim never, the Hasidim never, it never... Like you're talking about Zaydi Hafetz being into it. I mean, I suppose there were Hasidim who felt that way about other Rebbeim earlier, the Frierdiker Rebbe, whatever, Rebbe Rashab, but it, it, there's no history of that becoming some kind of social movement. Like you have stories of Hasidim saying this or that. It is very little in the line of somebody getting obsessed with the Frierdiker Rebbe being Moshiach or the Rebbe Rashab being Moshiach.

1:11:58 Speaker 3 Correct. Until, until the Rebbe did it.

1:12:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, but Zaydi Hafetz was before.

1:12:03 Speaker 3 Right. But I'm saying, so there were Hasidim that were a little outliers.

1:12:08 Speaker 2 So where was that coming from? That's what I'm asking. Where do you think that was coming from? Do you think that was because of the war? Like-

1:12:12 Speaker 3 Well, it could be the mesirat nefesh, what kept them going.

1:12:15 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:12:15 Speaker 3 You know?

1:12:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:12:16 Speaker 3 They were, they, they, they saddened... You know, the Zaydi writes, you're talking about Oros V'Hayah, "I'm a Hasid of him. I have a son, Meir."

1:12:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:12:24 Speaker 3 You know? Zaydi Hafetz in, you know, we know the story. At Erev Yom Kippur, he was the middle of some Siberian, I don't know where, you know, in the geshikht.

1:12:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:33 Speaker 3 Exactly which city, I forget. And he went to the mikveh, and he got sick.

1:12:38 Speaker 2 From the cold.

1:12:39 Speaker 3 Yeah. Like he was mamash, you know, this close to, to-

1:12:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:12:43 Speaker 3 And they brought him, like, not kosher food. Like, he wouldn't eat it. And a certain point, the doctor told him like, "What are you so stubborn about?"

1:12:54 Speaker 2 What's the point? Yeah.

1:12:55 Speaker 3 "Du bist az a kleyn a Yid." Like, like, you know. He said, "Ich bin a kleyn a Yid, a chabad grese Rebbe."

1:13:03 Speaker 2 That's, that's a word. That's a word. Hmm.

1:13:06 Speaker 3 And he said this in his delirium, that it was repeated later by the doctor when he was told.

1:13:11 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow.

1:13:11 Speaker 3 Like in his semi-conscious state-

1:13:15 Speaker 2 Wow

1:13:15 Speaker 3 ... "Ich bin a kleyn a Yid, a chabad grese Rebbe."

1:13:17 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:13:19 Speaker 3 They lived with the-- They believed in the Rebbe. And so I guess this part of it was that they're, they're, you know, they're connected to something that's-

1:13:28 Speaker 2 Right

1:13:28 Speaker 3 ... shlemus min ha'adam.

1:13:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, people don't like to go, go here, and, and I'm not trying to force this up into my balbatisha or whatever you wanna call it-

1:13:39 Speaker 3 Oh, happy to go

1:13:40 Speaker 2 ... thought, thought experiments, but to me it's, it's, it's clear, just at least from what we see publicly, and I think pub- what we see publicly is also for a reason. The, the, the Rebbe was clearly respectful of his father-in-law from the beginning, Zoshya. But the dedication, the, the Ibergengkeit for sure went to another level publicly after he came to America, after the war. Like the, the invol-- Pushka getting involved, and the Frierdiker Rebbe was asking for years to come work with him, and, and he, uh, they, they... There was a distance there. I don't know, um, I don't know between themselves personally, but Pushka geographically, Rebbe kept private for all the years, kept to himself. After the war, the, the Ibergengkeit is a whole another level. And so I wonder if like something about that era of like the war... I saw something else in the Frierdiker Rebbe's biography, uh, by Eli Ezri, that the Frierdiker Rebbe before the war was already planning coming to America. Um, I, I think, who was he talking to? Sol Jacobson. He said that, "I'm coming in six months. Get ready for me. Get, get, get things ready. I'm coming in six months," before the war broke out in Poland. And he said at the time that, "I've done my work, like, for the world, and now it's time to focus inward-"

1:15:00 Speaker 3 Inside

1:15:00 Speaker 2 "... with the Lubavitch."

1:15:02 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:15:02 Speaker 2 Which is amazing, because after what happened in Poland, then he was-- The, the, the nes of coming out-

1:15:08 Speaker 3 It changed

1:15:09 Speaker 2 ... it changed. Now, uh, that wa- we're not doing any more inward. It's, it's the world, it's the velt. And, and in fact, after the world war, all the other... many of the other leaders focused inward, and the Frierdiker Rebbe was, "I'm sending my chassidim out. I'm, I'm di- in a way diluting my, my core." And so something happened in my sense. I mean, again, this is a very Baal Beshtish read on things, but if we're trying to understand, like, how this happened, like, it seems like after the, like, the war pushed it, it made everything very urgent. Like, there's no, there's no, there's no time for private premiz-- you know, like keeping to ourselves. The Rebbe threw himself into it in a way that just wasn't ver- wasn't there before. I, if I make you uncomfortable, no need.

1:15:53 Speaker 3 No, I like, I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't really... I mean, I hear what you're saying. I don't accept the premise of the war in Baal Beshtishkeit as much as, you know, the way the Frierdiker Rebbe describes the, the shlichus. The, the Frierdiker Rebbe bachlal and the Rebbe, there are many aggadahs of the Rebbe that any time people wrote, like, the Rebbe-- that the Frierdiker was forced out of Russia and escaped to Amer- the Rebbe, like, always took it out. The Rebbe was never pushed out and escaped. Like, this whole idea that things happened shloik yertsaynen. The Rebbe was moiche bachlal toikef.

1:16:24 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:25 Speaker 3 The Frierdiker Rebbe coming to America, this was the last frontier. The Rebbe himself said this, a fascinating sicha, and it's all on video. That's what peop-- when I tell this to people, like, "No, it doesn't exist." I say, "Go watch the video. It's like a gem video. It's not like that."

1:16:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:37 Speaker 3 The Rebbe says, "People say that my obsession, like being obsessed with Moshiach, um, you know, I can't get involved because that wasn't the chinuch that I got," people say. Rebbe says, "I didn't either get that chinuch. I didn't see it by my father."

1:16:52 Speaker 2 The Rebbe said this right at Farbrengen?

1:16:53 Speaker 3 The Rebbe said it by a sicha. Uh-

1:16:55 Speaker 2 So Farbrengen or one of the weekday, like-

1:16:57 Speaker 3 No, it was a weekday sicha

1:16:57 Speaker 2 ... like after Ma'ariv?

1:16:59 Speaker 3 I think it w- I think it was, uh, yeah, Mamtesa, if I'm not mistaken.

1:17:03 Speaker 2 Like after Ma'ariv?

1:17:04 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:17:04 Speaker 2 Not a whole Farbrengen?

1:17:05 Speaker 3 No, not a whole Farbrengen. And then the Rebbe says this: "And it wasn't by me that way until I came to America."

1:17:12 Speaker 2 Okay. So this is... I'm not, uh-

1:17:13 Speaker 3 But I'm saying it mitzvah the-

1:17:16 Speaker 2 You're saying it mitzvah something Rebbe said-

1:17:17 Speaker 3 Mitzvah the chassidika that attacked in the shlichus-

1:17:20 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:17:20 Speaker 3 ... that this is it.

1:17:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:17:23 Speaker 3 But no, it obviously parallels also the-

1:17:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:17:27 Speaker 3 ... what you were saying. But I'm saying I look at it more of the, mitzvah the-

1:17:30 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:17:31 Speaker 3 ... this is the shlichus, and we know the Frierdiker Rebbe told somebody, I don't know who, I don't remember who, that he's hesitant to come 'cause he knows the work that the Frierdiker Rebbe has for him-

1:17:39 Speaker 2 Right

1:17:39 Speaker 3 ... when he comes. But this is it.

1:17:42 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:42 Speaker 3 But the lesson the Rebbe says, "Until I came to America, even by me, until I came to America," this is like a sicha-

1:17:48 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:17:48 Speaker 3 ... like public.

1:17:49 Speaker 2 Something for sure changed. If you wanna, uh, people could decide how they wanna approach it, I understand there's different sensitivities or different sensibilities, but I, I think it's, it's, it's almost silly to me to, to make believe like it was the same the whole time. I think whether you, whether you explain it, the piruche is, they're slavim in whatever, in these madregas or whatever, or, or you understand them more Baal Beshtish way, something's for sure changed. Like, like there was a, there was a new era that happened that includes the Frierdiker Rebbe, that includes the Rebbe, that includes the chassidim around them. Something changed. And anyway, I just, I think, like, it's an interesting part of the context you're talking about. But I wanna... If I, if I could retur- if I could slip you back to less the w- the, the Mekubaris and the i- like, the way it's written in the Sfarad and in your experience, what changes for you as a boy growing up in Crown Heights? How do you interpret at the time, not looking back through the, the prism of Hagah, you know, layers of a sicha and then Tazria Metzorah, how are you understanding the change that's happening in those years? Like, what, what's going on? You, you, you start talking about Zeidy for that reason. What are you seeing go on in those years?

1:19:10 Speaker 3 Yeah. So growing up, the moment we were part of the Rebbe's army, Tzivas Hashem, yeah, that the Rebbe was our Nasi and a Melech, this was always part of the, the chinuch. Melech HaMoshiach, like in such a re-- It was told to us, you know, the Rebbe's Moshiach. I remember Zusha, Zusha Zabludovsky from Montreal. He says that he remembers he came from Antwerp to Breslov, like one time, one of the shluchim, three o'clock in the morning after Farbrengen, you know, he's told him secretly, "By the way, you should know that Beis Moshiach is Gematria seven-seven. That's the way we feel." And all of a sudden, he said when the Kuntzer Beis HaRabbeinu HaShabago comes out, and it's in the artist, there was Laharsh Beis Moshiach is seven-seven. He was like, "The secret that the Breslov basement is now public." But we didn't have... By us it was already... The moment you're part of Tzivas Hashem, you know, we were in the Rebbe's army and the Rebbe's king, the Rebbe was a rally. Like, you know, the Rebbe was already our monarch. You know? The Rebbe was literally the parade. The Malchus was already apparent and, you know, then all of a sudden it turned into, you know, This became part of our, you know, culture, became part of our-

1:20:33 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:33 Speaker 3 ... life. The Psukim, you know, just even that facing the Rebbe and forget about Melech HaMoshiach.

1:20:39 Speaker 2 After Psukim, you're saying?

1:20:40 Speaker 3 Yeah. It was already a, a step forward in that, like, sort of soldier commitment-

1:20:45 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:45 Speaker 3 ... to our king. Um, you know, I-

1:20:48 Speaker 2 How did that start? Do you know how that started? Yeah.

1:20:51 Speaker 3 The way I heard it, it's a fascinating story. If you open up, if you open up the Sefer Bnei Yisashchar, I think it was written by Rabbi Sakla Kovsky from New Jersey.

1:21:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. Rabbi Benayisral, yeah.

1:21:04 Speaker 3 Benayisral You see pictures of the Rebbe going to Camp Emunah.

1:21:08 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:21:09 Speaker 3 In the pictures, you're going to see a big sign. They're talking about Tav Shin Chaf, Yechia Melech.

1:21:15 Speaker 2 That's in Parkville.

1:21:17 Speaker 3 It's in Emunah.

1:21:18 Speaker 2 Yeah?

1:21:19 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:21:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:21:22 Speaker 3 What's the, what's the history of the way I heard it? That Rabbi Lab- Labi Simpson, he was a-- Label Simpson was a jeweler in Borough Park. His wife was from a Satmar family, and she worked in Camp Emunah. And when she heard that the Rebbe, a Rebbe is coming to camp by the, by the it was a, it was a- Like, it seems like she, she was like put up this Yechia Melech, like this idea of-

1:21:54 Speaker 2 That's hilarious

1:21:54 Speaker 3 ... when JJ Hecht, when the Sukkot started, JJ Hecht wanted to give a berakhah to the Rebbe.

1:21:59 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:22:00 Speaker 3 And he went back to the, the, the, the, the what's it called? The Emunah signs of Yechia Dinaini, Yechia Melech. Like, he went back to that. This is what I heard. I don't know if that's true.

1:22:10 Speaker 2 Yechia Dinainu comes from the of all places.

1:22:14 Speaker 3 I don't know this for a fact. I just-

1:22:15 Speaker 2 That's so-- That, that would be so funny

1:22:17 Speaker 3 ... I just remember that when she passed away, that-

1:22:22 Speaker 2 Are you married to a Simpson?

1:22:23 Speaker 3 Married to a Simpson. So, and als- so they, they said this, and the, the picture is there, like in the .

1:22:29 Speaker 2 That's hilarious.

1:22:30 Speaker 3 I don't know this. I'm not saying this with any responsibility.

1:22:32 Speaker 2 I know, but it, but it's funny. If it's true, it's not as funny. Oh, it's this thing.

1:22:37 Speaker 3 In other words, he's saying the Sukkot, JJ wanted to, uh...

1:22:41 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, but the funny thing is that it comes from the, the s- uh, the-

1:22:44 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:22:44 Speaker 2 ... she says she's Satmar.

1:22:46 Speaker 3 She came from a Satmar family.

1:22:47 Speaker 2 That's funny.

1:22:48 Speaker 3 Yeah. But again, I don't know if this is, uh, valid. But regardless, it was only natural. It was only natural that-

1:22:56 Speaker 2 Did you feel that something was going on, though?

1:22:58 Speaker 3 I don't remember feeling-

1:22:59 Speaker 2 You're talking about, like, a history of, like, how-- But like in, in the moment, do you feel like, like something is happening? Like, like, like, like, uh, like, like the, the world is changing in a way? Like there's something...

1:23:12 Speaker 3 I didn't, uh-

1:23:13 Speaker 2 No

1:23:13 Speaker 3 ... we didn't feel that. The biggest change was Chavzah in other.

1:23:16 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:23:16 Speaker 3 More, more than any, uh-

1:23:18 Speaker 2 Mamash.

1:23:19 Speaker 3 Of course.

1:23:19 Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, but I'm saying now from base, you didn't feel... You, how you said you're ten years old. I guess you're younger.

1:23:26 Speaker 3 I mean, we felt that the . Yeah, but I remember going to saw New York . I was there. The teams were Nissim, Floys, right? That was the-- The Rebbe was speaking about then the Russian... What was the breakout, the color war or, or bag war? I saw New York .

1:23:41 Speaker 2 That's the iron curtain fell?

1:23:42 Speaker 3 That the Russian kids were coming for ca- to camp. They just came out of Russia, and you had to leave on your bed, a pair of tzitzit, your night tzitzit 'cause these kids don't have tzitzit. Everyone has to come to the shul to sleep 'cause they're taking over our bunks.

1:23:53 Speaker 2 Wow. Did you know-- Yeah, I heard-- Talk about camp breakouts. Someone told me that they-- that there was one year, and this is a, a crazy story on so many levels. I don't wanna say who told this to me 'cause, uh, it's not ni- whatever. I don't think he'd appreciate it. But he told me, I think he was in Parkville, or maybe it was Montreal, I don't know. But basically, the breakout was, I think to the effect that the, the, the kids were basically told that something's about to happen seven seventy that indicates Mashiach's coming.

1:24:25 Speaker 3 I don't remember.

1:24:26 Speaker 2 Yeah. And they basically... They had all the ki- all the kids got worked up into a tizzy. They, like something, something strange is happening seven seventy. Mashiach's about to come. Color war. It just shows like y- on one hand, it was like so, uh, so in the, in the soup or so in the, like, the water at the time, but it was also, it seems like it wasn't fully understood what that, like, what it meant. The fact you could turn it into a color war breakout. It was just like this weird... It seems like a very strange time.

1:24:54 Speaker 3 Again, you're also dealing with teenage bocher.

1:24:56 Speaker 2 Right. That's my point. That's my point. On one hand they're, they're assimilating a, a crazy idea, but they're also completely, like, normalizing it and, like, turning it into just another, another day.

1:25:06 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. Like you also have to understand that camp was just camp.

1:25:10 Speaker 2 Right. Right. That's, that's my point. Yeah. Mashiach just became part of life.

1:25:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:25:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:17 Speaker 3 It wasn't, uh-

1:25:20 Speaker 2 But isn't, isn't that, isn't that inevitably how... Like, isn't that the biggest, in a way, problem or, or challenge in understanding that however the trans-- whenever the transition, transition to Mashiach happens, is that how do you break out of the world making everything normal and breaking everything down into the routine? Isn't that the, isn't that the fundamental challenge? How do you get from point A to point B when what's in between these two points has to be a complete rupture?

1:25:51 Speaker 3 Yes and no, because I heard this good word from Rishon Daris. He said that it says that, the Rambam writes that it's not gonna be a shinin when Haggi Shaloylam, when Mashiach comes.

1:26:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:01 Speaker 3 What, what bigger shinin is there than Mashiach? But the change is gonna happen within the world that we're gonna think that this is part... Like, the fact that AI, you know, that, that like this, the world is where the people live lo- these ideas that were so Mashiach, they can only in the world of Mashiach is like standard today.

1:26:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:26:26 Speaker 3 Like, the, the world, the life when we grew up in , think about Mashiach of no one's gonna have to work, and the people, like you have these slaves or they're doing your work, right? Today, okay, give me a report. You have a, a ChatGPT, an AI making your tests for you, making your, uh, research for you.

1:26:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:46 Speaker 3 I mean, today the only value, say, anyone that learns today is wasting their time. To write a sefer, uh, J- uh, they write it better for you. The only value of learning today is . That the on- only thing the computer can't do for you.

1:26:58 Speaker 2 Yeah. It was in last week's Tanya, no? That, like, that the, that very interesting that they'll ever write are connected to . Right? 'Cause to be mechadesh and tera, it's by... It's, it's, it's a, it's a part of berurim. And you can only... Y-it's a, it's a fight between tov and ra, which you can only do because you have both of them inside of you.

1:27:22 Speaker 3 You're being megaleh.

1:27:23 Speaker 2 AI doesn't have this struggle.

1:27:24 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:27:24 Speaker 2 Right? So but, but, but you, you're, you're, you're, you are, you are... You said something very interesting. You said that until Chavsei Noach, the Moshiach was basically an idea. We're going back to the original framing of this conversation. That Mos- That there, there's idea, and then there's reality. Moshiach is an idea. Chavsei Noach was a reality.

1:27:46 Speaker 3 Chavsei Noach was a... You know, I remember Chavsei Noach. If I, if I remember correctly-

1:27:54 Speaker 2 You're 12 years old. No, 11.

1:27:56 Speaker 3 Eleven years old. Um, we would... Just to give you back to Crown Heights, the way it was, my parents' house was always, uh... My father was, is a very dedicated chassid.

1:28:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:28:09 Speaker 3 Just an example, like, I grew up, I'm the oldest son. I grew up with 10 older brothers 'cause when the Persian kids came out of Iran, like, 10 landed in my house. Like-

1:28:17 Speaker 2 Right

1:28:17 Speaker 3 ... my father was always very dedicated. He was a businessman, but I always thought he was a shliach because he was only telling me about the nefzoyim that he did and the Rambam that he was learning. Like, th-was it.

1:28:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:27 Speaker 3 So we were the block, house on the block that had the hookup of the sicha. When the sign would go up that the Rebbe's saying a sicha, most people didn't run to 77. They walk around to 77.

1:28:37 Speaker 2 Ah. So I didn't know that.

1:28:38 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:28:38 Speaker 2 Every, every block had a house-

1:28:39 Speaker 3 I don't know every block, but m-you had a place. Not everyone had a hookup. We are... A lot of people, our neighbors would come and sit on the couch.

1:28:46 Speaker 2 You, you hear the audio.

1:28:47 Speaker 3 We had the, the telephone with a, a special line.

1:28:49 Speaker 2 Right. You didn't see anything.

1:28:51 Speaker 3 No.

1:28:51 Speaker 2 You heard it.

1:28:51 Speaker 3 You heard it. And you had access to this line.

1:28:54 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:28:55 Speaker 3 And the line would say, "Oh, the Rebbe's in the house by the oil." Yeah.

1:28:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:59 Speaker 3 We knew the Rebbe went to the oil, and the Rebbe wasn't coming home. Like, it just, it was like getting later and-

1:29:03 Speaker 2 You're talking about Chavsei Noach there

1:29:04 Speaker 3 ... Chavsei Noach. If I remember correctly, this I pretty much think is true, but I, I should really confirm, but I think we got a call from Uncle Gershon in Meritz Yisroel.

1:29:14 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:29:14 Speaker 3 He heard something. Is it true? Like, we were just... We ca- We just kept it going. The Rebbe's by the oil. They would not, not You know, that was-

1:29:22 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:22 Speaker 3 ... the update. And all of us, we got like-

1:29:24 Speaker 2 That guy probably didn't know what was going on.

1:29:26 Speaker 3 I'm not blaming him. I'm not saying-

1:29:27 Speaker 2 No. Yeah

1:29:28 Speaker 3 ... I think we got a call from Meritz Yisroel.

1:29:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:29:31 Speaker 3 But Chavsei Noach was like every... Life was like there was nothing the same. Like, your regular Shabbos, like, our first Shabbos as a kid was after Chavsei Noach.

1:29:43 Speaker 2 What was that like?

1:29:45 Speaker 3 It was just very strange. Like, Shabbos, you were in some 74 hours. Again, at the beginning always was... Give you an example. Just the bungalow colony.

1:29:53 Speaker 2 Like, your father was crying by that meal? What was going on there? Do you remember?

1:29:55 Speaker 3 The first Shabbos, I don't remember, but my father was every day is the tefillin in the morning, minyan tefillin.

1:29:59 Speaker 2 No, but the, but the, but, but, but what, what, the Shabbaton that you remember, it was, like, at some point it, you would sing Nigunim or it was m- it was-

1:30:06 Speaker 3 It was pretty somber.

1:30:07 Speaker 2 Somber.

1:30:08 Speaker 3 Pretty somber. It wasn't normal.

1:30:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:11 Speaker 3 Just I remember the fact that the men were in the bungalow colony for Shabbos.

1:30:17 Speaker 2 Ah.

1:30:18 Speaker 3 It was a strange... I grew up, my parents have a bungalow in Swan Lake.

1:30:22 Speaker 2 Your f- your mother would go by herself.

1:30:23 Speaker 3 By herself. Like, wasn't, she wasn't the only one. This was, like, standard.

1:30:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:27 Speaker 3 What was different about our family, my father was such a shpitz Chabad, he would drive up Friday to bring us into Crown Heights to come back Motzei Shabbos.

1:30:37 Speaker 2 He would drive to pick up the kids and leave your mother there.

1:30:40 Speaker 3 The boys.

1:30:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:42 Speaker 3 The boys should be by the farbrengen.

1:30:44 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. I didn't know he was so crazy.

1:30:46 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

1:30:46 Speaker 2 I mean, I knew he was crazy then.

1:30:48 Speaker 3 I heard... I mean, I was in camp already.

1:30:50 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:30:50 Speaker 3 But my brothers, I heard that the counselors, guys, so New York Park slope knew that there was a ride 20 minutes away, that if you wanted to get, like, sneak out, then there was a ride to Crown Heights. There was, if you made it to Swan Lake at this time, you know, you can, uh-

1:31:04 Speaker 2 Could also be that he partially hated the bungalows. He probably hated the bungalows too.

1:31:07 Speaker 3 But no, this was-

1:31:08 Speaker 2 I understand that wasn't the reason