Ep. 101 // "The Two Worlds" w/ Rabbi Betzalel Marinovsky

00:00 Speaker 1 And as they were fleeing, the, the, the zeide had one, uh, thing on his mind. That this kid, which is my father, to prepare him for the bar mitzvah. And he told him, "Your name is Chaim. Uh, there is no other language," he told him, Russian or whatever, "that Chaim comes as a plural. Life is singular. Only in Hebrew the concept of life comes in a plural text."

00:34 Speaker 2 Hmm. Interesting.

00:36 Speaker 1 Because he, he told him, "The name is Chaim,

00:50 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-six. My name is Benji Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. Good evening to all of you from Houston, Texas. I'm sitting here with Rabbi Batzalel Marnosky, a shliach here for over forty years.

01:16 Speaker 1 Yes.

01:16 Speaker 2 And we will find out a lot more about your story and where you come from in the following, uh, few minutes. But, uh, before we begin, uh, all those who like and s- like this podcast, please like and subscribe to the podcast on the various platforms. It does help with the algorithm and getting it out there. And for those who really like the podcast, please support the podcast at hclpodcast.com/donate. Rabbi Marnosky, thank you very much for doing this. Thank you for making the time. Why don't we begin, uh, with your story from where it begins? I'm told it begins in Russia.

01:52 Speaker 1 I could say that. On my father's side, my father was born in Kremenchuk.

01:57 Speaker 2 Kremenchuk.

01:58 Speaker 1 That's Ukraine today. And he was born to a family of Arabonische family. Sein tate, sein zeide were the Rabbonim in Kremenchuk. Kremenchuk was a city known for, uh, they had always two Rabbonim. They had a, a so-called a Chabadub, a Lubavitcheruv, and a Chernobyler, because that region of Ukraine, all the Tversky dynasty, like the Rachmistriv here, and the Holostapiler, and the Tolner, were all the Tversky dynasty in that region. Um, the world turned upside down with the revolution, they shot the tsar, and life, Jewish life or general life as we knew it, everything turned upside down. But this family, it's hard for me to describe how did they manage to survive, but they decided that we're not gonna change. And-

03:04 Speaker 2 The Marnosky family?

03:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, the Marnosky, and the alter rebbe was named Tarashansky. And he decided-

03:12 Speaker 2 And they were Lubavitcher Hasidim?

03:14 Speaker 1 I said a combination of both.

03:16 Speaker 2 Oh, I thought the city had-

03:17 Speaker 1 Lubavitch and Chernobyl together.

03:19 Speaker 2 The city and them, or they, just the family?

03:21 Speaker 1 That family-

03:22 Speaker 2 That family

03:22 Speaker 1 ... decided that no matter what happens, we are not gonna change.

03:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:28 Speaker 1 Meaning the, my zeide never shaved his beard. My, my zeide never went to work anywhere. When I say my zeide, I mean Shmaaya.

03:39 Speaker 2 Your zeide Shmaaya.

03:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, he did not have like a job like everybody else, because then it comes in complications with Shabbos, with everything else. Um, and he, my father's grandfather was the rebbe in Kremenchuk. His name was Reb Moshe Tarashansky. Uh, my father was born in summer of nineteen twenty-eight, so his bar mitzvah would have been summer of forty-one.

04:05 Speaker 2 Right.

04:05 Speaker 1 Forty-one is when the German ar- army invaded Ukraine.

04:11 Speaker 2 Right, and they had to run away.

04:12 Speaker 1 And they chose to, uh, flee town. Actually, they had no knowledge of what's really happening.

04:23 Speaker 2 Right.

04:24 Speaker 1 Some people in the city actually welcomed the German army.

04:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:28 Speaker 1 They thought, "We'll get rid of Stalin-

04:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

04:30 Speaker 1 ... and the German annoyance with people, with culture, with et cetera." Or other people thought that the German, the Russian army is the most powerful army in the world. Their only source of information was the formal Russian media, and they said, "We are winning in all battles." So the Russian army, they're gonna move them out of town one, two, three. So, but the zeide said, it's a sophiak pikua nefesh, so let's get out of town. I don't understand how they actually did it, but the last minute they escaped with only, as we say, one carry-on piec- piece of luggage.

05:09 Speaker 2 Right.

05:10 Speaker 1 He left a lot of seforim behind and a lot of ksavim.

05:14 Speaker 2 This is the zeide that was a rav?

05:16 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. And they left everything. And as they were fleeing, he, the, the, the zeide had one, uh, thing on his mind. That this kid, which is my father, to prepare him for the bar mitzvah.

05:32 Speaker 2 He had only one child?

05:34 Speaker 1 No, I'm saying he-

05:35 Speaker 2 Oh, that was on his mind. Yeah

05:36 Speaker 1 ... that was on his mind, in spite of the fact that here are flying bullets, we are fleeing the German army. We are homeless, we are stateless, we are penniless, we are hungry. We don't have a place. We don't know where we're gonna sleep next night.

05:51 Speaker 2 Right.

05:52 Speaker 1 But he is focused on teaching the child for his bar mitzvah.

05:57 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:57 Speaker 1 My father's name was Chaim.

06:00 Speaker 2 Oh, uh, uh, he was learning with him? What do you mean by his focus?

06:03 Speaker 1 That was his concentration.

06:05 Speaker 2 So you heard this from your father?

06:06 Speaker 1 Yes.

06:07 Speaker 2 That's what your father felt-

06:07 Speaker 1 Yes

06:08 Speaker 2 ...as a boy?

06:08 Speaker 1 Yes.

06:09 Speaker 2 That bar mitzvah is still going on?

06:11 Speaker 1 Yes. Bar mitzvah doesn't mean a party. There's no way to make it-

06:15 Speaker 2 No, I understand

06:15 Speaker 1 ...make a party. Bar mitzvah means your commitment and dedication to Yiddishkeit.

06:20 Speaker 2 Right.

06:20 Speaker 1 And he told him, "Your name is Chaim." Uh, there is no other language, he told him, Russian or whatever, that Chaim comes as a plural. Life is singular. Only in Hebrew the concept of life comes in a plural text.

06:42 Speaker 2 Hmm. Interesting.

06:44 Speaker 1 Because he, he told him, "Your name is Chaim, 'dot zwee Yuden', 'in loshn rabin'" in plural, and, "'vel mir hobn di velt un yene velt.'"

06:54 Speaker 2 Hmm.

06:54 Speaker 1 At that time we did not know about the Friediker Rebbe's interrogation.

06:58 Speaker 2 I was gonna say-

06:59 Speaker 1 You know that, you know that today.

07:00 Speaker 2 I was gonna say that-

07:01 Speaker 1 But at the time he did not know that.

07:03 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

07:04 Speaker 1 My father only found out about it 20 years later.

07:07 Speaker 2 As many of you know, I recently traveled to Australia to spend six days exclusively recording for the Homesick for Lubavitch podcast. I went in with high expectations. I felt that there were stories interesting and important enough that deserved a trip across the Pacific Ocean. But what I came away with far exceeded even my wildest dreams, for these 20 interviews were more than just 20 separate stories. Rather, they came together to tell a much larger story, a much more powerful story, one that I believe changed my life and I also believe will change the lives of thousands of people around the world, for this is a story about love, the love that the Rebbe had for Chassidim across the ocean, the love that they had to him, the love that they had for each other, and the love that overflowed from these relationships to thousands and then tens of thousands of fellow Yidden in Australia who became part of the thriving and growing community that is Lubavitch of Australia today. If you would like to take part in this historic project, either by dedicating one of the episodes in memory or in honor of a loved one, or by advertising your company in one or multiple episodes, please reach out to me at bentzi@uvlumedia.com, bentzi@uvlumedia.com. I invite you to take part in this project, and I look forward to sharing this wonderful story, what I call the miracle of Lubavitch in Australia, with all of you in the weeks to come. And now, back to the

08:36 Speaker 2 show. You said earlier that your grandfather was a mix of Lubavitch and, and Chernobyler.

08:42 Speaker 1 Chernobyler, right.

08:43 Speaker 2 Right? Uh, what, what did that mean? What did that look like? He, he was someone who wrote to the Rebbeim, he kept the Minhagim. What, what did that, what did that look like?

08:51 Speaker 1 Um, from the very early on, the Alter Rebbe fled Napoleon. I'm gonna start from that.

09:01 Speaker 2 Sure.

09:01 Speaker 1 And then the Mitteler Rebbe, there was a thought they should settle in Kremenchuk.

09:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

09:08 Speaker 1 And the Mitteler Rebbe spent time in Kremenchuk.

09:10 Speaker 2 Before Lubavitch?

09:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. Finally, he settled in Lubavitch, but before that he was in Kremenchuk for a few months.

09:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:18 Speaker 1 And the first Rav in Kremenchuk was Rabariki Kremenchuker. He was, I think, the son of the Rebbetzin Freide.

09:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:27 Speaker 1 So there was always a strong connection-

09:30 Speaker 2 Hmm

09:31 Speaker 1 ...a strong influence both on the Rabbonim of Kremenchuk. There was Rabbonim Tomarkin. There was the Rabbonim of Kremenchuk. Great Rabbonim were both Chabad Rabbonim and the so-called the Polisher Rabbonim.

09:44 Speaker 2 So there was one Chabad Rav and one Polisher Rav.

09:46 Speaker 1 Right. And the Polisher Rav was my great-grandfather. But they, there was mutual respect, and one influence, the Chernobyler was influenced a lot by Chabad. They say that, uh, my alter zeide davened to Sahari. Now, the Gurary family comes from Kremenchuk.

10:07 Speaker 2 Right.

10:07 Speaker 1 They had a tobacco factory there, and, and there was a close connection. There was obviously letters and corresponding and messengers back and forth. So the whole concept of Chabad and Lubavitch was not new to them, was not foreign to them.

10:24 Speaker 2 What does it mean that he was a Lubavi- a Lubavitcher Hasid? What does it-- what did that mean back then? I'm not questioning if he was a Hasid. I'm trying to understand what you mean by that.

10:32 Speaker 1 I, I was not there, but I, I, what I heard from my father and from other people, that they complement each other, if that's the right way to describe it, and they inspired each other and respected each other.

10:49 Speaker 2 Right.

10:50 Speaker 1 And there is also intermarriage of Rabbi Yanky ιςravitcher Hasid was ιςversky. Reb Nachum Chernobyler, the Mitteler Rebbe became mechutanim. There was a strong connection and a mutual respect between them.

11:04 Speaker 2 Uh, so they all basically consider themselves Chassidim of both?

11:08 Speaker 1 Kind of.

11:09 Speaker 2 It wasn't like we, we are doing some Chernobyl Minhagim and some Lubavitch Minhagim. We, we are-

11:15 Speaker 1 In a way, yes

11:16 Speaker 2 ...our, our thing is both.

11:17 Speaker 1 Yes. In a way, yes, yes.

11:19 Speaker 2 Interesting. No, because a, you know, a lot of times today people make the Lubavitch is this, and you're, you're saying it's-

11:26 Speaker 1 At that time it was, uh-

11:27 Speaker 2 Another, another version

11:29 Speaker 1 ...uh, to exclude. Breslov was always excluded.

11:35 Speaker 2 That was the only one that was excluded?

11:38 Speaker 1 Breslov was also a Ukrainian Chassidis.

11:40 Speaker 2 Right.

11:41 Speaker 1 And I'm sorry to say that, but that's what I heard from my father, that nobody liked them, nobody joined forces with them, and nobody cooperated with them. It is only after the communists and those Breslovers who wanted to remain hidden had no choice but join the Chabad underground- Establishment.

12:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Well, the, the, the, the, the split with Breslov goes back a long ways.

12:07 Speaker 1 Of course. So I'm saying the other Hasidim-

12:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

12:11 Speaker 1 ... while Chabad and Chernobyl were friendly and cooperating, and also with the Ruzhiner, uh, dynasty-

12:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

12:20 Speaker 1 ... was also a Ukrainian dynasty, and but, uh, with the Breslover, we stood aside.

12:29 Speaker 2 Hmm.

12:30 Speaker 1 The, the, the Breslover was no-- were not welcomed into that circle.

12:33 Speaker 2 Interesting.

12:34 Speaker 1 Until after, I'm saying till after World War II, until communism took over.

12:39 Speaker 2 Everything changed.

12:40 Speaker 1 Right.

12:40 Speaker 2 So you were saying-- So go back to... We're going back to the story.

12:43 Speaker 1 I'm saying to-- My father grew up in a environment-

12:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

12:47 Speaker 1 ... that in spite that whatever happens around them, but very strong, not just Jewish identity, like we hear from other Russian Jews, but mamash push it, he, he davened, and he learned, and only about learning and Torah and continuing. Like, you know the saying, America is nisht anders. They, they said, "Nisht anders. We're not gonna change from whatever we knew it."

13:17 Speaker 2 Right.

13:18 Speaker 1 And-

13:20 Speaker 2 But it's also interesting that it's not like, you know, the famous stories in Lubavitch are that the Friediker Rebbe called in the Minyan of Hasidim and they-

13:27 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no

13:27 Speaker 2 ... this just happened-

13:28 Speaker 1 Not, yes

13:28 Speaker 2 ... this happened on his own.

13:29 Speaker 1 Right.

13:30 Speaker 2 Your zeide on his own decided-

13:31 Speaker 1 Right

13:31 Speaker 2 ... this is what I'm doing.

13:32 Speaker 1 Right. But obviously he needed support-

13:36 Speaker 2 Sure

13:37 Speaker 1 ... from, uh, others.

13:38 Speaker 2 Sure.

13:40 Speaker 1 You need support from the system now. My father had a older brother.

13:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:46 Speaker 1 And I did not know about it, and my father did not know about it even then, but when Shalom Ber Levin published the book, Tell This Chabad, the Russia Sevetit.

13:59 Speaker 2 Right.

14:00 Speaker 1 So he found over there a letter that the Friediker Rebbe was already, if I could use the term, I hope, and nobody's gonna get upset. The Friediker Rebbe was technically expelled from Russia.

14:13 Speaker 2 Right.

14:14 Speaker 1 In, in nineteen twenty-seven.

14:16 Speaker 2 What's wrong with that term?

14:18 Speaker 1 Because we sp-- we are celebrating Yud Beis Tammuz that he is a hero survived, but technically-

14:27 Speaker 2 Yes

14:27 Speaker 1 ... they get rid of him.

14:29 Speaker 2 Yes, correct.

14:30 Speaker 1 Uh, but we are celebrating because by being outside, he was able to assist people on the inside.

14:37 Speaker 2 I see.

14:38 Speaker 1 Now, one of the economics, uh, Stalin's policies, that he was always short on foreign currency.

14:48 Speaker 2 Right.

14:49 Speaker 1 So-

14:50 Speaker 2 Because the go-- the governments didn't wanna do business with him.

14:53 Speaker 1 Right. So one way that he, he figured out to bring in foreign currency, he made like, uh, anybody from outside of Russia could make a deposit. Like today there is something called Western Union or some other form like that.

15:09 Speaker 2 Right.

15:09 Speaker 1 You could make a deposit-

15:11 Speaker 2 Right

15:11 Speaker 1 ... in a fund, and your relatives in Russia will receive it inside Russia.

15:17 Speaker 2 In rubles.

15:18 Speaker 1 Not, not in cash. You could go to the grocery-

15:20 Speaker 2 Ah

15:20 Speaker 1 ... and buy a loaf of bread.

15:22 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

15:22 Speaker 1 Okay?

15:24 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

15:25 Speaker 1 So there is a long list in the Toldos Chabad Russia Seveti how much the Friediker Rebbe supported all the chadorim.

15:33 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:34 Speaker 1 So the melamed-

15:35 Speaker 2 So the Soviets accepted money from the Friediker Rebbe? They knew it was coming from him?

15:39 Speaker 1 I don't know if they knew under what name was the deposit made-

15:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

15:43 Speaker 1 ... and they knew where it was going. They needed currency, and people from outside put in deposit, and the people on the inside got it.

15:52 Speaker 2 Right.

15:53 Speaker 1 So there is a list over there. There was a melamed, Benjamin Maroz. He, uh... My father told me when he saw it, he was surprised that he would actually put in names.

16:08 Speaker 2 Oh, into the deposits?

16:09 Speaker 1 No, into the letter. He wrote a letter to the Friediker Rebbe.

16:13 Speaker 2 Benjamin Maroz?

16:14 Speaker 1 Yes. He, who was the melamed.

16:15 Speaker 2 I see.

16:16 Speaker 1 He writes a letter to the Friediker Rebbe. He could not address the Friediker Rebbe directly.

16:20 Speaker 2 Right.

16:20 Speaker 1 So the letter is to his friend, Chaim Lieberman.

16:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. In, in America. Well-

16:25 Speaker 1 No. It was, was still in Riga

16:26 Speaker 2 ... still in Riga, yeah.

16:27 Speaker 1 Still. He writes a letter to Chaim Lieberman, says, "Thank you very much for your support." Chaim Lieberman sent him then two dollars a month.

16:36 Speaker 2 Right. And those, and those-

16:37 Speaker 1 And those two dollars saved my life.

16:40 Speaker 2 Saved your life?

16:41 Speaker 1 His-

16:42 Speaker 2 Oh. Oh, oh

16:42 Speaker 1 ... the melamed.

16:42 Speaker 2 Ah, I see, I see.

16:43 Speaker 1 And he writes the melamed that I'm teaching two kids, uh, for a bar mitzvah. This is, this my father's older brother. Think it was nineteen, uh... Father was born in twenty-eight. His brother was born in twenty-four. His older brother was born in twenty-four, and he writes to, to, to Chaim Lieberman to report the Friediker Rebbe that this boy has or this meimer-

17:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

17:11 Speaker 1 ... the Marinovsky boy has a Shai Gessarie.

17:14 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. This is your uncle.

17:15 Speaker 1 Yes. Yisroel Yankov. Just to tell you, in vos mir hot geliebt, in vos mir hot gelegen.

17:21 Speaker 2 Wow. But this story is before the other story you told me.

17:24 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

17:24 Speaker 2 This is before the war.

17:25 Speaker 1 Yes, it-

17:25 Speaker 2 You're just giving me a... Okay.

17:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm, I'm just saying the environment in the home. You wanted to know how the Friediker Rebbe influenced, how the Friediker Rebbe helped the relationship between Chabad. Friediker Rebbe is outside of Russia. He's already in Riga. He's sending two dollars a month to a melamed in Kremenchug. He's teaching kids for a bar mitzvah. He learns with Marinovsky boy, a Shai Gessarie-

17:48 Speaker 2 Shai

17:49 Speaker 1 ... with the other one, he learns a Meimer, and this is how they kept Yiddishkeit alive.

17:53 Speaker 2 This is how they kept Yiddishkeit alive.

17:55 Speaker 1 Uh, and this is kids who, who continued just like it was before the revolution.

18:02 Speaker 2 Right.

18:03 Speaker 1 Then my father's family arrived in Samarkand.

18:07 Speaker 2 So, uh, when they ran-- when they escaped-

18:09 Speaker 1 When they ran-

18:09 Speaker 2 ... the Nazis.

18:10 Speaker 1 I'm making it sound so, so-

18:11 Speaker 2 No, it wasn't so simple

18:12 Speaker 1 It wasn't so simple. Even today-

18:14 Speaker 2 They, they probably didn't even know where Samarkand was before.

18:17 Speaker 1 They knew because, uh, they had a friend named Simcha Gorodetsky.

18:22 Speaker 2 Uh-uh.

18:22 Speaker 1 And Simcha Gorodetsky knew-- was in Samarkand before, and they knew. But I make it sound like you take a direct, uh, train. No.

18:30 Speaker 2 Right. No.

18:30 Speaker 1 And even today, I hear from my friends and family members in the Ukraine of today, from Russia and Ukraine, to take a train from one city to another city, it's twenty-three hours, and it's not so simple.

18:44 Speaker 2 From Kremenchuk to, to Samarkand.

18:46 Speaker 1 So from Kremenchuk to Samarkand took them weeks and weeks.

18:48 Speaker 2 Yeah, Kremenchuk's all the way in Ukraine-

18:50 Speaker 1 Right

18:50 Speaker 2 ... and Samarkand is in, in-

18:51 Speaker 1 Uzbekistan

18:52 Speaker 2 ... Uzbekistan.

18:52 Speaker 1 Right, right.

18:52 Speaker 2 It's in the south.

18:53 Speaker 1 Right. So they took-- The, the train took many, many weeks.

18:57 Speaker 2 Right.

18:58 Speaker 1 They left, uh, Samarkand in the summer. They arrived in... They left Kremenchuk in the summer. They arrived Samarkand in the fall.

19:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

19:07 Speaker 1 They left with their summer clothes, uh, by, by then the winter came around. My great-grandfather, Moshe Tarashevsky, passed away in Saratov. He could not continue the journey all the way to Samarkand. He was already eighty-four years old.

19:23 Speaker 2 He passed away on the train?

19:24 Speaker 1 Uh, no, in-

19:25 Speaker 2 One of the stops

19:26 Speaker 1 ... in Saratov.

19:27 Speaker 2 It's one of the stops.

19:28 Speaker 1 Yes. But my father's family arrived in Kremi-- in Samarkand. Samarkand was already, in nineteen forty-two, was already a enclave of all the Hasidim, all the Gedolei HaHasidim that you know.

19:41 Speaker 2 Right.

19:41 Speaker 1 Any name that you know was in Samarkand in those years between forty two and forty six.

19:48 Speaker 2 Right.

19:48 Speaker 1 So Samarkand was like Lubavitch, Lubavitch.

19:52 Speaker 2 The Golden Ayin of Samarkand.

19:53 Speaker 1 The Golden Ayin. It was-

19:54 Speaker 2 No food.

19:55 Speaker 1 There was no-- There was nothing what to eat, so I asked him, "How did you survive?" So he says there was one Bukhara family who would come in once a week, throw him a few lepishkes, a few pitas once a week, bring them a pot of soup. Not much like this.

20:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, they had no food. But they, but they, they... A lot of people have very warm memories from back then.

20:14 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. So the old Hasidishkeit and the Yiddishkeit is in the, in, in the warm. And this lasted until, uh, the, the end of the war.

20:25 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:26 Speaker 1 Then came the story of, of nineteen forty-six, that we-- everybody tried to escape t-t-to Lviv.

20:33 Speaker 2 Right.

20:33 Speaker 1 As, as everybody knows the history.

20:35 Speaker 2 Well, for one second. For those who don't know it or, it, it... How do you, how do you know the story? Just to make sure that we have the right history.

20:43 Speaker 1 Uh, how do I know it? From personal, uh, you know-

20:46 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying how do you re-- how do you-

20:48 Speaker 1 Okay. So after the war, the war was over, there was many r- Polish refugees who ended up being on the Russian side.

20:59 Speaker 2 'Cause they were running away from the Nazis.

21:01 Speaker 1 Right. So at some point, Stalin said anybody who wants to accept Russian citizens is welcome. We're gonna grant you, out of our generosity, we're gonna grant you Russian citizenship.

21:15 Speaker 2 Right.

21:15 Speaker 1 Of course, majority did not wanna take it.

21:18 Speaker 2 Yeah.

21:18 Speaker 1 Because they thought as soon as the war is over, we'll be able to go back home. All those who refused to take, Stalin send them to Siberia.

21:27 Speaker 2 Hm.

21:28 Speaker 1 And technically, they survived the war because they were far away from the battlefield.

21:34 Speaker 2 Yeah. I know, I had somebody on the podcast.

21:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:37 Speaker 2 You know Yitzchak Neibesh?

21:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes.

21:39 Speaker 2 He has a grandson-

21:39 Speaker 1 From Lubavitch. Right.

21:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. So he, he survived because-

21:43 Speaker 1 Because they sent-

21:43 Speaker 2 ... his family was sent to Siberia by the Na-

21:45 Speaker 1 Exactly

21:45 Speaker 2 ... by the Nazis.

21:45 Speaker 1 Yes. So that's, uh, that's, uh, uh, similar. But after the war, uh, Stalin said any Polish citizen who would like to go back to Poland, uh, would be allowed to. And it was a window of opportunity, a very narrow window, and that's when the Lubavitcher Hasidim saw his opportunity. Although most of them were not Russian, actual real Russian citizens, they decided it's a window of opportunity. We're gonna organize. They had to forge passports, borrow passports from people who are deceased, bribe many officials, and the whole story and operation till they... Three trains, I think. It's, I, I, I lately saw a number close to a thousand-

22:39 Speaker 2 Lubavitchers

22:39 Speaker 1 ... people. May- maybe like, uh, three hundred families managed to escape.

22:43 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I, I... From both sides.

22:45 Speaker 1 Your family is right.

22:46 Speaker 2 Both sides.

22:46 Speaker 1 Right. Your, your grandparents were on that-

22:49 Speaker 2 For the first Shemtov, absent-

22:51 Speaker 1 Right. Right. They were all on the sa- sa- same side. So-

22:53 Speaker 2 So why wasn't your family on the trains?

22:56 Speaker 1 Uh, okay. That's a good question. I'll, I'll tell you both sides of the family. Uh, on my father's side, uh, M- M- Moshe, they ran from Kremenchuk. One of the things he took with him is a chalitza shoe. You'll be surprised. People take with them-

23:14 Speaker 2 You said that they're of-

23:15 Speaker 1 Yeshua. He took with him a chalitza shoe, he take.

23:18 Speaker 2 This is your father's father?

23:19 Speaker 1 Yes.

23:20 Speaker 2 A chalitza shoe.

23:21 Speaker 1 Right.

23:21 Speaker 2 Most people don't even know what that... I mean, people have heard of it in the Gemara.

23:24 Speaker 1 Now, he was in Gemara, but he understood that, uh, during the war there'll be a goodness, and he was Masada Gittin in Samarkand.

23:32 Speaker 2 Wow.

23:33 Speaker 1 In Samarkand, he was Masada Gittin and Chalitzas, and he dealt with those issues.

23:39 Speaker 2 So he knew that there might be a Hechi Timsuh-

23:41 Speaker 1 Right

23:41 Speaker 2 ... of a, of a chalitza.

23:42 Speaker 1 Right. So, and he took it with him, and he ins-- while he was in Samarkand, uh, he was still busy. There is a Get, and there is a Yentel. He was still busy with the Askonos until finally one night, they already had their suitcases packed, and he says, "We're going to Lviv." They got a telegram from a Jew named Berel Gorevich.

24:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

24:08 Speaker 1 Uh, which he says, "Babu Shkaza Balela." I re-- I, I hear this so many times. And he says, "G- grandma got sick, and she asked na to come visit her."

24:19 Speaker 2 Hm.

24:20 Speaker 1 They understood what it means. So-

24:23 Speaker 2 What does it mean?

24:24 Speaker 1 That means do not travel to Lviv.

24:27 Speaker 2 Why? It was Babushka that he-- It's something to-

24:30 Speaker 1 No, no, no.

24:30 Speaker 2 It was just a code, a general code.

24:31 Speaker 1 It's a code which was implied that they did not know if the train got stopped-

24:36 Speaker 2 Right

24:36 Speaker 1 ... if they got arrested, if the-

24:39 Speaker 2 I see

24:39 Speaker 1 ... if the operation ceased.

24:41 Speaker 2 Oh, basically, your grandfather waited too long.

24:43 Speaker 1 Right.

24:43 Speaker 2 He waited too long with, with helping-

24:45 Speaker 1 You asked me why didn't he go.

24:46 Speaker 2 Right.

24:47 Speaker 1 By, by, by the time he was ready to go to Lviv-

24:50 Speaker 2 Right

24:50 Speaker 1 ... he got a message.

24:52 Speaker 2 I see. I see. So he would've waited too long.

24:54 Speaker 1 Right. A few weeks or whatever.

24:57 Speaker 2 Right, right.

24:57 Speaker 1 And that narrow window-

25:00 Speaker 2 Had closed

25:00 Speaker 1 ... had closed.

25:01 Speaker 2 And if he went, he'd be arrested and sent to God knows where.

25:04 Speaker 1 Right. Right. So and actually, the KGB came to their home in Samarkand to check anybody who was with their suitcases by the door, so to speak, ready to travel to Lviv, was arrested.

25:17 Speaker 2 Wow.

25:18 Speaker 1 They says, "Where are you going? Where are you going?" Uh, and, uh, et cetera. Now, just to say about this Berel Gurevich, this Berel Gurevich was a Jew that he put... He has three boys.

25:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

25:31 Speaker 1 One was named Dovid Gurevich, I don't know, later on became the head shliach to Tashkent in Uzbekistan.

25:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

25:38 Speaker 1 And he had a son, Mulik Gurevich, and a son Rav Gurevich.

25:41 Speaker 2 Mulik Gurevich is in... No, no, not the one in Australia.

25:44 Speaker 1 No, no, no, not this one. Eh, from Far Chabad.

25:46 Speaker 2 Right.

25:47 Speaker 1 Gurevich . So there was three, three sons. Those three sons, he s- he, he put them on the train.

25:55 Speaker 2 He put them on the train when people were still going?

25:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, when people were able to leave, but he could not make it.

26:00 Speaker 2 Why?

26:02 Speaker 1 Because of, of the papers or whatever.

26:04 Speaker 2 Uh.

26:04 Speaker 1 And he said, "Worse comes to worse, maybe they'll escape, and they'll survive."

26:11 Speaker 2 Wow.

26:12 Speaker 1 When you're running from a fire, that was the attitude.

26:15 Speaker 2 Sure.

26:15 Speaker 1 When you're running from a fire, so you don't think. He says, "Maybe I'll put my kids on the train."

26:24 Speaker 2 Right.

26:25 Speaker 1 But later on, they were stopped, and they were arrested.

26:30 Speaker 2 The boys?

26:31 Speaker 1 The, the three kids. They were all underage.

26:33 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

26:33 Speaker 1 So they would've been sent to a orphanage. So he said, "I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna claim them." They told him that's practically suicide because they're gonna-

26:48 Speaker 2 You're gonna-

26:48 Speaker 1 ... arrest you

26:48 Speaker 2 ... for doing, for sending them off.

26:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, what, what story are you gonna say? I mean-

26:54 Speaker 2 How did they end up on the train?

26:55 Speaker 1 Right. How did they end up there?

26:56 Speaker 2 Right.

26:56 Speaker 1 And what's their real name? What's their real identity? Anyway, so he says, "I'm go- willing to take the risk. If they're gonna send them to a orphanage, they become-

27:06 Speaker 2 How old were these kids at the time?

27:07 Speaker 1 Underage.

27:09 Speaker 2 S- so young-

27:09 Speaker 1 Kids

27:10 Speaker 2 ... young enough that-

27:10 Speaker 1 Yes

27:11 Speaker 2 ... who knows?

27:11 Speaker 1 Young enough that the, the, that the state will take custody of them.

27:15 Speaker 2 And you don't know what's gonna happen to them.

27:17 Speaker 1 I know what's gonna happen. They'll be, uh raised by the state in their education system.

27:24 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying-

27:24 Speaker 1 Right

27:24 Speaker 2 ... they're, they're young enough that they can be imp-

27:26 Speaker 1 Sure

27:26 Speaker 2 ... that, that they can-

27:27 Speaker 1 Influenced.

27:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

27:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he went ahead, and he, he claimed the kids. He says, "That's my children, and I'm responsible for them, and I wanna have them to my custody back," and whatever story. So, so he, he was sent for seven years to Siberia.

27:43 Speaker 2 For asking for his kids.

27:45 Speaker 1 For the story that he sent them illegally on the train.

27:48 Speaker 2 And what happened to the kids? They go- they went home?

27:50 Speaker 1 The kids went home-

27:51 Speaker 2 And he-

27:52 Speaker 1 ... to be with their mother

27:52 Speaker 2 ... and he was arrested.

27:53 Speaker 1 So he saved his kids, and he went to Siberia.

27:55 Speaker 2 Wow.

27:56 Speaker 1 Later on, I know that my uncle, Yisroel, that I told you before, he used to send him every Pesach glucose shots because Pesach is eight days that he did not eat bread.

28:12 Speaker 2 Right.

28:13 Speaker 1 We, we're talking about and-

28:16 Speaker 2 Which, which was only food they had.

28:18 Speaker 1 Right. So how do you survive? Because he injected himself with glucose, sugar.

28:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, which is what diabetics have when they need to survive.

28:27 Speaker 1 Right. So that gave him to survive the week of Pesach-

28:31 Speaker 2 Wow

28:31 Speaker 1 ... shooting this out.

28:32 Speaker 2 Wow.

28:33 Speaker 1 Usually, when you send to a prisoner, uh, medication, they did allow it.

28:41 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:42 Speaker 1 They checked every mail. They checked every package. Every parcel was inspected.

28:46 Speaker 2 And of course, you couldn't send matzah to Siberia.

28:49 Speaker 1 But when you, when, uh, medication, they did pass.

28:53 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:53 Speaker 1 So he would inject himself with those-

28:56 Speaker 2 Hmm

28:56 Speaker 1 ... uh glucose shots, and that's how he survived the week of, of Pesach. Anyway, Baruch Hashem, he managed to survive. He came to Far Chabad, and Berel Gurevich.

29:08 Speaker 2 Wow. And you, and you knew him. We're gonna get to that.

29:10 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. Yes, I grew up with him and his kids, and, and his grandkids are my age.

29:17 Speaker 2 Wow. Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company that I have run for close to 10 years. Today, Yuvala Media works with organizations all around the country, bringing their stories to life in a way that is both meaningful and memorable. Whether it's a video for a milestone dinner, an online fundraiser, or a building campaign, we begin each project with the same question: "What does your audience need to know about you to feel more connected to your cause?" Once we answer that question, we tailor-make a video that best addresses this need. Over the years, we have built a reputation for top-of-the-line visuals while also being responsive and reliable. As one of our clients put it, "A combination of technical excellence and real heart." If you are looking to make a video for an upcoming dinner, fundraiser, or building campaign, please reach out to us to schedule a 15-minute phone call to see if we can make something beautiful together. Email us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the show.

30:19 Speaker 1 You asked me if I know about... So my father's family missed the opportunity.

30:24 Speaker 2 Right.

30:24 Speaker 1 Then Samarkand could no longer stay there, so they moved to Tashkent.

30:30 Speaker 2 And your mother's family?

30:31 Speaker 1 My mother's family, my mother's maiden name is Rubashkin.

30:35 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

30:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:36 Speaker 2 The, the, the, the, the known Lubavitch Rubashkin family?

30:39 Speaker 1 Getzel is my zeide's first cousin.

30:42 Speaker 2 Okay.

30:42 Speaker 1 Sholom Rubashkin was his father, and my zeide's father was Leib. They lived in Leningrad in the winter of '42.

30:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

30:50 Speaker 1 As you know, the city of Leningrad was besieged, blockade. They call it the blokade.

30:55 Speaker 2 Sure.

30:56 Speaker 1 So, uh, women and children were allowed to leave- But ex-explain what that blockade was. It was very bad. Uh- How many people would have- The blockade meant very simply, I cannot explain Stalin's strategic plans. He, he did not go on Moscow, but he went on the second city, Leningrad. Leningrad is surrounded geographically with water, and there's only one narrow passage, and once you cut off the supply, population inside were starving- Right ... and he was bombing from the air. Stalin? Yeah. Stalin or Hitler? Hitler, Hitler. Hitler was going after- Yeah. Hitler was the, the German air- uh, aircraft- Right ... was bombing from the air. Right. And the population inside starved. Starved. Starved. Thousands- But- ... and thousands of people died in- Just from hunger? Yeah, just from hunger, uh, lack of food, lack of medication. Um- I think, I think my, I think my grandmother Karasik's- Yes ... uh, Afton's parents passed away there. Yes. A lot of Lubavitchers went there. Yes, yes, yes, because a lot of Lubavitchers- Escaped there ... escaped to the big city- Right ... uh, because in this, in these small cities they could not survive anymore- There's no food ... with communism. Right. So they were into the big cities. Right. But once in Leningrad, thousands of people perished there. Right. Le-Lazarer Foss was- Yes ... was at, was a raven Leningrad. Yeah. So my, my mother was born in Leningrad. Uh-huh. Her, her father was from the Rubashkin family. His father was a merchant at the time

32:28 Speaker 1 of the czar, that's why he had the permit to live in Leningrad. Right. They came from Nevel, but he came to, to Leningrad. Uh-huh. Now, even though that, uh- Oh, a side question. If you go from Lening- from Nevel to Leningrad, are you still Galeter or no? Everybody left, left Nevel. Stop joking. You couldn't still be there. Um, my grandmother, my mother's mother was a daughter of Shloime Raskin, from the Raskin family. But she escaped with the children to her father, which lived then in the city called Gorky. It's called Nizhny Novgorod. Right. So she escaped with the little children, but he stayed behind because his, he did not wanna abandon his elderly parents. This is your grandfather? Right. Right. But they all, uh- They all passed. perished that- Wow ... that winter '42. But my grandmother with the kids escaped. So your mother grew up an orphan? Yes. A-a-and that is like she is a sister, my grandmother is a sister to the Raskin lane, Dobe Raskin lane was her older sister, and Mrs. Wishetsky. The youngest baby sister was Lube Azarchi. Mm-hmm. And there was, uh, three more brothers, Leibe, Shaul, and Shalom Ber. These are, these are your mother's uncles? This is all my mother's cousins. Oh, cousins or unc- oh, cousins. Yeah. Uncles, the uncles and the cousins. Right. Wow. So- So why didn't they escape some- Some of them managed to escape, some of them- From Leningrad? From Leningrad? No. I'm talking, I'm talking about they escaped Leningrad. Women and

34:14 Speaker 1 children escaped from Leningrad. Right. The men, some men stayed behind. Right. So the men perished. Right. The women escaped. Right. They went to Tashkent also? No, they, they went to Gorky. Gorky, you said that. Because the father was there in Gorky. Then came the issue of '46, they escaped. Right. So we, we know always that, uh, our aunt, uh, Mrs. Hashe Wishetsky, she missed the train. She came a few minutes late. And she... Whatever, the car was supposed to pick up everybody and the ca-- and to issue everybody's their papers, and there was going back and forth with all this, uh, just in a matter of, of minutes, she literally missed the train by a few minutes. Now, my mother's sister, I'm gonna tell you another episode. Uh, we, shlomim who grew up in America, you could probably re-relate to it from personal experience. I had my own children. I'm not gonna revisit it. Had to send kids away from home at a young age. Yeah. I grew up in Hong Kong- Yes ... so it's like- You know what I'm talking about. I mean, I sent Sharma and Ari at a young age, seventh grade or eighth grade- Right ... different schools. But the ad-advantages or disadvantages of that we'll not discuss now. Um, there was many in my own family, because some of them are orphans, some of them intentionally, some of them because they thought they're escaping. Like Mendel Futterfas. Right. Sent his wife and kids on the train, and he stayed

35:53 Speaker 1 behind. Right. Not by choice, because he thought, "I'm gonna take the next train." Right. Um, so some of my mother's... My mother had a brother which was sent with his aunts and uncles, and they, um, managed to escape, and they came to Eretz Israel. But he grew up in Eretz Israel technically an orphan. Right. That's right. Even though he had an uncle. Right. But it's not the same. No. Shalom Ber Wishetsky, if you know him, he was sent with his uncle, Meir Zarchi, but, uh, he grew up in seven seventy as a, technically as a orphan. Right. And then it affects your shidduchim, it affects your kids, and, and et cetera. So the, my mother's older sister, Luba, was standing with one foot on the train steps and with one foot on the ground and begging the conductor to hold off the train. For her mother. For her aunt. For her aunt. For her aunt to arrive, Mrs. Wishetsky to arrive. And he says, "Ma'am, the train has gotta go. I cannot wait any longer." She tried to give him her watch or whatever. He says, "What am I gonna do with the watch after they cut off my head?" He says, "If this train doesn't leave now, it's gonna crush- crash with another train."

37:14 Speaker 2 Right.

37:15 Speaker 1 So, uh, the train's gotta go. So she got off the train. She did not wanna go with her other aunts.

37:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

37:21 Speaker 1 And everybody told her, "Come up, come up," all the, the cousins and the aunts and uncles and-

37:26 Speaker 2 Your mother, your mother's sister?

37:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. And they told her, "Come, come, come. See, it's your once in a lifetime opportunity. Who knows if there is chance whenever." She says, "No, I'm not leaving without my mother. I'm not leaving without my aunt." She got off the train.

37:39 Speaker 2 Where was her mother?

37:41 Speaker 1 Her mother was, at that time, probably with her f- with her father in Gorky.

37:47 Speaker 2 Ah, so you're saying that her aunt was like her mother at the time?

37:49 Speaker 1 Right. Uh, for the purpose of the trains, we m- mixed and matched families.

37:55 Speaker 2 Right. I see.

37:55 Speaker 1 You go with this, and this is your aunt, this is your uncle, because of the papers production.

38:01 Speaker 2 I see.

38:01 Speaker 1 So we mixed and matched families.

38:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So she got off, and your mother also got off?

38:07 Speaker 1 My, my mother was never there on that day.

38:10 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

38:10 Speaker 1 She was with her, with her mother in Gorky.

38:14 Speaker 2 In Gorky.

38:16 Speaker 1 So this is the '46, '47. Some made it. My father moved to Tashkent.

38:21 Speaker 2 So your mother never even got to trying to get out?

38:24 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Until many years later.

38:27 Speaker 2 Later.

38:28 Speaker 1 Then-

38:30 Speaker 2 So, uh, when did you enter the picture?

38:33 Speaker 1 Much later.

38:34 Speaker 2 Much later.

38:34 Speaker 1 That's okay. Now, so this is-- W- we're talking about '46, '47.

38:39 Speaker 2 Right.

38:40 Speaker 1 Then, um, Mesher Wishetsky, who was-- he came out from jail. He was in, uh, in Lviv, or he was in Czernowitz at the time. He was in Czernowitz, and he did a shidduch with Simcha Goretsky.

39:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

39:00 Speaker 1 And then the wedding was in Tashkent. And during that time, he saw my father. So he came back, and he made the shidduch between m- my parents. My mother was, at that time, at the Wishetsky house.

39:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So life was going on somehow in the Soviet Union?

39:20 Speaker 1 Somehow. Now, now I'm talking about already the '50s. It's a different-- the war is over, w- the flowers started to bloom and, and blossom. People went to work. People went to school. Life became, uh, so-called normal.

39:33 Speaker 2 But the Soviets were harder after the war, no?

39:35 Speaker 1 Yes. Uh-

39:36 Speaker 2 'Cause they weren't, they weren't busy with the war anymore.

39:38 Speaker 1 Right. Right. But, uh, in some way, life restored.

39:43 Speaker 2 There's food. There's food.

39:44 Speaker 1 There's food. There, there was food. Gashmiyus, there was... Okay. There was, there was bread in the grocery stores, and Yiddishkeit was, uh, the-- took a different format then.

39:57 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

39:57 Speaker 1 And that's why my parents got married in '57-

40:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

40:00 Speaker 1 ...in Tashkent.

40:01 Speaker 2 In Tashkent.

40:02 Speaker 1 And I was born in '59 in Tashkent.

40:04 Speaker 2 In Tashkent.

40:05 Speaker 1 Yes.

40:06 Speaker 2 You remember Tashkent?

40:07 Speaker 1 Yes, because we left, uh, the '66.

40:11 Speaker 2 Hmm.

40:12 Speaker 1 And in '66 was a big earthquake. But before the earthquake, my father tried always to escape, and every year he applied-

40:21 Speaker 2 Right

40:21 Speaker 1 ...to leave Tashkent. Now, but he was always denied, as the system was. Now, in Tashkent at that time was a big group of Chabad Hasidim.

40:32 Speaker 2 Right.

40:33 Speaker 1 A big-- I'm talking already after the war. I'm talking the, in the-- I'm talking about the '60s already. There was a strong-

40:41 Speaker 2 Right

40:41 Speaker 1 ...a very strong, uh, Chabad community. To the point, for example, there was a factory at a printing shop or whatever it was called, the... Now every business was government-owned.

40:59 Speaker 2 Right.

40:59 Speaker 1 And, and to be unemployed is illegal.

41:03 Speaker 2 Right.

41:04 Speaker 1 So one, uh, nachalnik was Uzbek, and his assistant was named Mendel Gorelik, which recently, if you know, uh, he was involved in restoring Kehl Blavik's matzeva.

41:21 Speaker 2 This Mendel Gorelik?

41:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. Which he was, uh, also like he was a artist. He had a chushin. He forged many passports-

41:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

41:31 Speaker 1 ...and many Polish documents in 1946.

41:34 Speaker 2 A clever man.

41:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he was the menehel, so to speak, and he arranged with the Uzbek that every Shabbos, all those Jews who come, they all huge sign in for them as if they're all here present. They sitting all day in the so-called the break room, learning Tikun L'eilu for brains.

41:58 Speaker 2 Mamash.

41:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. But the factory, the lights are on, and the equipment is supposedly working. But this is a luxury that only Tashkent had.

42:08 Speaker 2 They're sitting and learning Tikun L'eilu in the factory.

42:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. On Shabbos, on Shabbos morning.

42:12 Speaker 2 Mamash.

42:12 Speaker 1 They came to our house. It was a minyan. That I remember.

42:15 Speaker 2 Before work?

42:17 Speaker 1 Early morning was a minyan. Mendel Gorelik was the balkore. And I remember it was a minyan in our house every Shabbos morning. Then they went to work, but they did not touch anything.

42:28 Speaker 2 Right. They went to-

42:29 Speaker 1 The Uzbek-

42:30 Speaker 2 Right

42:30 Speaker 1 ...said, "I want you there present in case there is an inspection, in case somebody comes to visit." Now, I'm talking about life in Tashkent. I-- We had a shoychet-

42:39 Speaker 2 And they were far-- they were farbrengen there?

42:41 Speaker 1 Yes.

42:42 Speaker 2 With mashke and with dals?

42:43 Speaker 1 I don't know if it was mashke, but whatever.

42:44 Speaker 2 With laguen and whatever.

42:47 Speaker 1 Uh, but they did not-- T- technically, they didn't work.

42:51 Speaker 2 Hmm.

42:51 Speaker 1 But they had to be registered because-

42:53 Speaker 2 I understand

42:55 Speaker 1 ...um, in our house, that I remember, we had a shoychet. The-- My, my mother went to the market, bought a live chicken. Uh, some people went to the shoychet's house. To our house, the shoychet came to us, because mesade was niruv. So his name was David Gesinsky. He came to the house, he shechted the chicken, we cleaned them in the house, then we kashered it. I still remember that process.

43:24 Speaker 2 How about that?

43:25 Speaker 1 Um, and, and I had a melamed who would come to my house every day, teach me Alef-Bet, Ivrit, Chumash, or whatever it was.

43:34 Speaker 2 Just you or there was a group of kids?

43:36 Speaker 1 No, no, just me. I was told that he's my-- If somebody asks who is this old man, "He's my grandfather's friend, he's coming to visit him." Whatever. So-- But we had a enclave of frum Yidden which kept up and davened, and learned, and continued Yiddishkeit.

43:56 Speaker 2 Did you sense that the Hasidim there were freilekh? Were, were they-- They were living in very difficult times, but was there-- were they all depressed? Was there a freilekhkeit?

44:06 Speaker 1 I have no-- Could be I was a child, and I didn't, uh, uh, realize that hardship, but I d-- I, I don't remember that. On the contrary, there was always a lot of action, and there was a lot of, uh, things were happening. There was simchas, there was functioning, there was bris and bar mitzvahs. My father was a mohel-

44:30 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

44:30 Speaker 1 ...throughout all those years, and every bris was, uh, an experience, and every bris is-- My grandmother was afraid if he-- waiting. Her, her heart was pounding until he came back.

44:42 Speaker 2 Right.

44:42 Speaker 1 But, uh, for example, there's a classic story. Somebody came to him and says, "Knock on the door," and you see, when somebody comes, there was no telephone. People come knocking on the door to invite you to come to a bris, and you don't know if it's a KGB person, it's a setup, it's a trap.

44:59 Speaker 2 Right.

45:00 Speaker 1 So finally, I told him, "I want you to come January first at six AM." He says, "Why do you want this date?" It's relevant how old the baby was. He says, "Because that date, I'm sure that all my neighbors will be asleep. They party all night, so nobody will notice you coming in and coming out. January first, I want you to come six AM to my house."

45:23 Speaker 2 To do the bris.

45:23 Speaker 1 To do the bris, yes. So we came a few weeks before and said ...

45:28 Speaker 2 Right.

45:28 Speaker 1 Or like, things like that. Life was and then-

45:32 Speaker 2 But you remember as a child, you remember-- A child can remember if, if-

45:35 Speaker 1 Yes

45:36 Speaker 2 ...parents are, are, are, are depressed or happy.

45:39 Speaker 1 There was-- I would not use the, the word depressed. There was the, the hardship of, of life because our house was not just a private house. It was a shul. It was a house of fabrangens. It was always action there.

45:56 Speaker 2 Right.

45:56 Speaker 1 Then one time, as I, as I, as I mentioned, the Gurevich family, I went to, uh, the Gurevich house, and my friend Chaim Gurevich lifted the carpet in his parents' bedroom, and he showed me their steps going down to a mikveh.

46:13 Speaker 2 Mamash?

46:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. So this is how we lived in Tashkent. We had, on one hand, we had everything. I remember that we used to get two Yisroegim in Tashkent, one a collaborator. Binyamin Gadetsky would send to his brother Simcha, collaborator Yisroeg, and my zeide would get one Israeli one.

46:34 Speaker 2 They would send it from outside Russia?

46:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

46:36 Speaker 2 And the Soviets let it in?

46:37 Speaker 1 Uh, we had to send three or four. One was probably they said, "You got a package. If you get a note, you have to come to the post office to pick it up." You know how it goes. And when you go to the post office to pick up the package, you know what's gonna happen. They're gonna ask you, "Who is this? What is this? Where is it from?" So sometimes they waited, Hashem iruham, till after Yom Tov. They know the exact date, and only then they deliver the package.

47:04 Speaker 2 Mamash?

47:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. Sometimes they would slice it to make sure there's nothing inside or whatever. But usually we got three or four sources, and we would get in one Yisroeg.

47:15 Speaker 2 Huh.

47:15 Speaker 1 And I remember that hundreds of people would come to our house on Succos morning. They would walk two hours, three hours in each direction to bench Lo Soseh on the first day.

47:25 Speaker 2 Were people getting arrested? You know, the famous stories of all Hasidim being sent to Siberia. Was that happening in Tashkent?

47:31 Speaker 1 Not so much.

47:32 Speaker 2 It was more calm?

47:33 Speaker 1 In the fifties and the sixties, the thirties and the fifties, I'm talking, uh, the sixties. If I could say it like this, once Stalin died-

47:44 Speaker 2 Right

47:44 Speaker 1 ...in fifty-three-

47:45 Speaker 2 Right

47:46 Speaker 1 ...things calmed down a lot.

47:48 Speaker 2 It happened-

47:48 Speaker 1 There was no more big arrests. There was no more of this until the chaos of the seventies of the refuseniks. But in the sixties, until they, until they started making trouble, so to speak, the refuseniks-

48:01 Speaker 2 The politics

48:02 Speaker 1 ...with the situation, the politics. But in the sixties was, relatively speaking, a quiet time.

48:07 Speaker 2 Basically, if you, if you followed the-

48:09 Speaker 1 You lay low. You lay low. You, you, you keep quiet. You don't cause trouble, you'll be okay.

48:15 Speaker 2 We'll leave you alone.

48:16 Speaker 1 Yes.

48:17 Speaker 2 And we won't let you leave.

48:18 Speaker 1 Right. They won't let you leave. But, but if you lay low and don't cause too much trouble, they could continue. And that's what Tashkent was.

48:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:27 Speaker 1 My zeide still kept his beard always. My zeide still, uh, uh, s-

48:32 Speaker 2 But your father was still trying to get out the whole time.

48:34 Speaker 1 Yes. Until finally, summer sixty-six was a big earthquake.

48:40 Speaker 2 An actual earthquake?

48:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes, like a real physical-

48:42 Speaker 2 Ah.

48:43 Speaker 1 The ground was shaking, I remember.

48:45 Speaker 2 You remember?

48:45 Speaker 1 Yes. I was sitting on the bed, and it was shaking, trembling.

48:50 Speaker 2 Huh.

48:51 Speaker 1 And in the chaos, the files were not computerized. There was paper files.

48:57 Speaker 2 Right.

48:57 Speaker 1 So during that time, if, uh, the government is trying to provide housing for the citizens, and somebody says, "I want to leave," they said, "Go."

49:07 Speaker 2 They were happy for you to leave.

49:08 Speaker 1 Yes. In the chaos, first of all, they probably lost the files that we were recently applied and denied. And just now, if somebody says, "I have a place to go. I want to go someplace," they said, "Go."

49:22 Speaker 2 So where did you go? Where did you go?

49:24 Speaker 1 Oh, so the system was as big as the country Russia was then, the only international airport in Moscow.

49:32 Speaker 2 In Moscow?

49:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. So we had to go to Moscow. In our times, it was before the Sixth Day War, so there was still a Israeli embassy there.

49:40 Speaker 2 Right.

49:41 Speaker 1 So we had to go to the Israeli embassy and get papers from them, like the, the visa to travel to Israel.

49:47 Speaker 2 Right. Just for people that don't know, in the beginning-

49:50 Speaker 1 We had a Russian passport.

49:51 Speaker 2 No, but in the beginning of, of the Israeli state-

49:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, for me

49:54 Speaker 2 ...the Sov- the Soviet Union was supporting it.

49:56 Speaker 1 Recognize, right.

49:57 Speaker 2 Supporting it.

49:57 Speaker 1 They recognized Israel.

49:58 Speaker 2 Partially because Israel itself was a relatively socialist country, right?

50:02 Speaker 1 Right, right. They supported Israel. They voted in the UN to, for Israel.

50:05 Speaker 2 It w-- Not, not, not because Stalin liked Jews-

50:08 Speaker 1 No

50:09 Speaker 2 ...obviously. For politics.

50:11 Speaker 1 Maybe he thought, uh, it's a socialist or whatever.

50:13 Speaker 2 Right. And it was, it was in the '67 war when America and Russia basically-

50:18 Speaker 1 Yes

50:18 Speaker 2 ... took sides on both sides.

50:19 Speaker 1 Because they, the Russia supplied Egypt to the MiGs.

50:23 Speaker 2 Right.

50:23 Speaker 1 And Israel destroyed all the MiGs, so things changed.

50:26 Speaker 2 Right.

50:27 Speaker 1 But so we arrived in Israel before the Six Day War. To make it short, we-- my grandparents were already old and frail, and they were-

50:38 Speaker 2 This is, this is your grandfather who's a rav?

50:40 Speaker 1 Yes. He was afraid to fly.

50:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Yeah.

50:44 Speaker 1 Today you don't understand. He never in his life was on an airplane.

50:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

50:47 Speaker 1 So he, he asked if he could go by train. We said okay. So we took a train from Moscow to Vienna. Vienna was then the hub where the Sochnut would meet you.

50:59 Speaker 2 This year marks seventy-five years since Yud Shvat and the first Bas Selegani. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World Is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlam Media, inspired by Bas Selegani, the first mimar, the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Bas Selegani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by String Quartet to bring the beauty of Bas Selegani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad Houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the film's original arrangements for String Quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the String Quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now back to the show. What was it like for you to leave Russia? Did you realize as a child what kind of big deal it was?

52:10 Speaker 1 I remember the journey, but I didn't appreciate what it means leaving Russia. We, we, we got through from... It's a three-day journey from Tashkent to Moscow.

52:21 Speaker 2 Right.

52:22 Speaker 1 To my mother, it was very stressful because she has four babies. She needs to feed them four days on a train.

52:28 Speaker 2 Right.

52:29 Speaker 1 She doesn't have access to her own kitchen, and and she can't buy from the canteen on the train.

52:34 Speaker 2 Right, right.

52:34 Speaker 1 But we came to Moscow, and from Moscow we took a train to Vienna.

52:38 Speaker 2 Right.

52:38 Speaker 1 And you, and you cut through Poland and Czechoslovakia. That's it. You've got Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and then you arrive in, uh, in Austria.

52:46 Speaker 2 Right.

52:46 Speaker 1 In Austria, we already we were met by the Sochnut.

52:50 Speaker 2 Right.

52:51 Speaker 1 The Sochnut told us at that time, that's what it was, there is a plane going to Israel once a week.

52:57 Speaker 2 But your grandfather still didn't want to fly.

52:59 Speaker 1 Right. But this one... So he says, "We have another option. You could take a train to Venezia, Italy."

53:06 Speaker 2 Right.

53:06 Speaker 1 I remember through the Alps, from Moscow to Venezia. To me, it was fun. And Venezia, we take a boat, and you'll be in Haifa in a week.

53:14 Speaker 2 In the Mediterranean, right?

53:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, which is about the same time as, or city. So we landed on a boat in Haifa.

53:23 Speaker 2 Wow. That's how you got to Eretz Israel.

53:25 Speaker 1 In sixty-six, yeah. And w- my father was very proud of the fact that straight from the port he went to Farhabad.

53:32 Speaker 2 And not?

53:33 Speaker 1 What?

53:33 Speaker 2 And not-

53:34 Speaker 1 And not some other hoba, other Sochnut, Ma'on, Olim or whatever, Malon or whatever. Instead, I wanna go to Farhabad.

53:41 Speaker 2 What's that? What's what the, what's that-

53:43 Speaker 1 He knew about Farhabad.

53:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

53:44 Speaker 1 My mother had a brother there, but he knew Farhabad is the-

53:49 Speaker 2 It's Lubavitchers.

53:50 Speaker 1 Yes. Uh, in Farhabad we didn't get... There was no housing.

53:54 Speaker 2 Oh.

53:54 Speaker 1 It was half of the Farhabad was abandoned Arab homes who fled in nineteen forty-eight.

54:01 Speaker 2 That's what Farhabad was.

54:02 Speaker 1 Yes. Farhabad was named Safriyat, was an Arab village who the Arabs fled-

54:10 Speaker 2 Right

54:10 Speaker 1 ... in nineteen forty-eight with the establishment of the state, and we occupied their homes.

54:16 Speaker 2 So that's where you lived?

54:17 Speaker 1 Yes, in the first, uh, year or two. And our cheder was also in such a rooms.

54:25 Speaker 2 Farhabad is also mostly farms, no? Farms.

54:29 Speaker 1 Yes. But I'm saying all the homes, and nobody had fancy cars and nobody had fancy homes in the times. It was, uh-

54:35 Speaker 2 Farha-- Israel was a very poor country

54:37 Speaker 1 Even our school was-- there was no school building.

54:41 Speaker 2 Right.

54:41 Speaker 1 It was scattered different homes.

54:45 Speaker 2 Right.

54:45 Speaker 1 But the environment was a warm, sincere environment. Later on, already in a year or two, we got... In the... Some of those old homes still did not have indoor plumbings.

54:57 Speaker 2 Was it hard for your father at all, like, once he escapes Russia, to settle down in Eretz Israel?

55:03 Speaker 1 Yes. Uh, uh, financially it was because he didn't have a job. He didn't have a parnasa. I mean, it was-

55:11 Speaker 2 He had a better parnasa in Russia than in Eretz Israel?

55:15 Speaker 1 Yes.

55:16 Speaker 2 Really?

55:16 Speaker 1 Because in Russia you get a check, you get this, you get the housing. Here-

55:22 Speaker 2 He was figured out in Russia

55:23 Speaker 1 ... here he needed to start everything from scratch.

55:26 Speaker 2 What about, like, emotionally? Like, he, he has a community in Russia that he grew up with and now he's in-

55:33 Speaker 1 He was, uh... He even took a physical labor job, uh, manual physical labor job in a coffee factory or whatever.

55:41 Speaker 2 In Eretz Israel?

55:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, it lasted-- It didn't last long because I think one day he was on a break, he was reading a, a newspaper, and the boss called him over. He made fun of him. He said, "There's no pictures here. Why are you holding this paper?" He thought of him as a newly arrival Russian immigrant. Probably doesn't speak Hebrew, doesn't know anything. So he took this physical manual la-labor job. And my father, in his humbleness and humility, a "chacham," you think everybody else is a scholar, you know?

56:16 Speaker 2 Right.

56:17 Speaker 1 So he says, "I don't understand. I read this." He says, "What? You know how to read? Come to my office." He opened him the, the newspaper, says, "Tell me what it says there." He had to teach him. He had to explain to him what it says there. He says, "You're fired." He says, "Why?" "Because you're overqualified. You are a scholarly man." He says, "When did you learn?" He says, "What do you mean? Every Jew is a educated Jew," in my father's mind.

56:40 Speaker 2 In your father's mind from Russia.

56:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. He says, "What? A, a Jew is a, a Jew is a educated person. Every Jew is chacham," you know, in his, uh, his mind.

56:51 Speaker 2 So he came out of Russia. In, in many ways, uh, he-- it was hard to find a place in Eretz Yisrael.

56:58 Speaker 1 Uh, financially, yes.

57:01 Speaker 2 But also more than. It seems more than financially. It's just-

57:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. He became, he became a then he became a soifer. I could, uh, I could say the first-

57:11 Speaker 2 I'm sorry. I've also heard from people that, that some people that came out of Russia missed... In Russia, there was this, uh, sense of togetherness because you all, you all-

57:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, but-

57:20 Speaker 2 -fight.

57:20 Speaker 1 Kfar Chabad was a warm environment.

57:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

57:23 Speaker 1 Kfar Chabad was a Hassidish environment, and most of them were Russian immigrants that some of them he knew or of them or before them. It was a different environment.

57:34 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

57:35 Speaker 1 Uh, I know the first time my father went to New York was Tisha b'Av, the Rebbe invited him. The Rebbe paid for the ticket.

57:47 Speaker 2 Paid for the ticket?

57:47 Speaker 1 Yes, for all the no- all the new arrivals who came that year, who came Tisha b'Av.

57:56 Speaker 2 Everybody came out the same way?

57:57 Speaker 1 Not everybody. There was a group.

57:58 Speaker 2 No, but that, but that group came out all because of the earthquake?

58:02 Speaker 1 Not necessarily. Some of them, but there was a few, a few people. It was trickles. But there was maybe ten, 20 families who arrived at that time.

58:11 Speaker 2 And the Rebbe paid for everyone to come?

58:13 Speaker 1 Yes.

58:13 Speaker 2 The whole family?

58:15 Speaker 1 No, only males from age 20 and up.

58:18 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

58:19 Speaker 1 Only... That I remember. Males only from 20 and up.

58:23 Speaker 2 They were-- He paid for-- The Rebbe paid for them to come for Tisha b'Av?

58:26 Speaker 1 Yes.

58:27 Speaker 2 So your father?

58:28 Speaker 1 Yes. So he went. We all stayed behind. And, and my father then-

58:34 Speaker 2 What was your concept of, of the Rebbe i-in Russia? I mean, you were there-

58:39 Speaker 1 In, in Russia, I didn't have... I, I mean, we heard. I-- first of all, I was very young.

58:42 Speaker 2 No, but how did Chassid-- How did Chassidim speak about him?

58:44 Speaker 1 I was very young. I was very young. I was up to seven years old when we left. And, and the older ones spoke about it, but at w-- I, uh, I'm not qualified to discuss this. You have to speak to somebody who was older, like maybe Chaim Schwer.

59:02 Speaker 2 Chaim, Chaim Geravich's Schwer?

59:04 Speaker 1 No, Chaim Lazaro Schwer, Shlemme's older brother.

59:06 Speaker 2 Oh.

59:06 Speaker 1 Like somebody older who's, uh, s, s-

59:09 Speaker 2 He was with you in Tashkent also?

59:10 Speaker 1 Yes, ba, but he's a few years older. He was already a teenager.

59:14 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

59:15 Speaker 1 I mean, I was then seven years old.

59:18 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

59:19 Speaker 1 I could tell you about Kfar Chabad. Uh, one of my teachers was a Jew named Berky Chain, which was a Tzi'r.

59:28 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. The, the casket-

59:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So-

59:31 Speaker 2 He, he was your teacher in Tashkent?

59:33 Speaker 1 No, in Kfar Chabad.

59:34 Speaker 2 In Kfar Chabad.

59:34 Speaker 1 I'm talking already Kfar Chabad in the '60s. And had a few other, uh, teachers, Velvel, Castleman, and they were Hassidish Aiden, very warm, and they-- Uh, I don't know if it has any, uh, anybody cares today. We said every day after davening, we said two Keplit Loch Tevil. We said the 3rd Rebbe's Keplitl and the Rebbe's Keplitl. It was like in the past and in the summers. Like the Rebbe was then in the, in his 60s.

1:00:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:06 Speaker 1 And 3rd Rebbe was 80, 90, whatever.

1:00:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:10 Speaker 1 So we said every day after davening those two Keplit Loch Tevil.

1:00:12 Speaker 2 Well, because these Chassidim, they were Chassidim of the third Rebbe, yeah?

1:00:15 Speaker 1 Right, right. Later on, we dropped it, but he was a chassid of 3rd Rebbe.

1:00:20 Speaker 2 Berky Chain.

1:00:20 Speaker 1 Right. I could tell you something about him that, uh, uh, I had my bar mitzvah in Lamas Base.

1:00:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:30 Speaker 1 And at that time, no bar mitzvah boys would put on Rebbe Noam's.

1:00:36 Speaker 2 Oh, you're, you're my father's age.

1:00:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. But he would put on for person film then already.

1:00:42 Speaker 2 Berky Chain?

1:00:42 Speaker 1 Yes. And he started encouraging us, we should ask the Rebbe to put on Rebbe Noam's. And it was a chidush, it was, uh, something rare. But we did and, uh, and the Rebbe told us to start putting on film.

1:00:58 Speaker 2 Rebbe Noam's?

1:00:58 Speaker 1 Yes. So we were then only like thirteen years old, between thirteen and fourteen, and we started to, uh, to put on Rebbe Noam's because we asked the Rebbe. The Rebbe said, "Go ahead."

1:01:11 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:01:12 Speaker 1 That was... But Kfar Chabad at the time was the Yeshivah already had bochurim who came back from Kvutze.

1:01:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:22 Speaker 1 So they brought Rebbe, they brought 770, they brought Rebbe pictures. They already-- Uh, we had our so-called madrichim. We had Yeshivah Sered, Yeshivah Shabbos. It was already older bochurim from Yeshivah Kfar Chabad who had been to 770 for a year.

1:01:38 Speaker 2 Right. But your father also went to 770.

1:01:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he's, uh... It's a different. I'm saying th- the bochurim who spent a year, it's, uh-

1:01:47 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:47 Speaker 1 ... it's different.

1:01:49 Speaker 2 In what way?

1:01:50 Speaker 1 Uh, because they would inspire us w-with Rebbe and create, uh, a desire, create like a yearning, c-create a... And I think the revolution happened in, in Eretz Yisrael. Shlem Chaim Kessler was the mashpia. In Chabad In Chaba-- Lud-Lud had moved to Chabad at this point Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a branch. Then, then the main center was in Chabad, and Lud was the for the younger bachurim. Uh-huh. Uh, he was always-- Which t-t-today, later were discovered that the Rebbe encouraged him that to hold back. Which means anybody who wants to go to the Rebbe says you have to prepare, you have to learn so many Meimadim, you have to do a Beis Tefilah, you have to do all this. And that was the Shlomo Chaim style. Right. Ready. Right. And so he basically, he held back. Bachurim from going to- Right ... to seven seventy. Right. Then Shlomo Chaim passed away in like . Right. I remember that. It was on a Friday. And, and after that, Mendel Futerfas came to Chabad. Right. And Mendel Futerfas changed and revolutionized every farbrengen, everybody I saw, I was then a Bar Mitzvah boy. Every farbrengen that I attended to, everybody he spoke to, "Fortzum Rebbe. Fortzum Rebbe." That's all what I heard for a whole day. Interesting. And he, he in essence changed the whole outlook. And, and if, if before that was only Yechidim went, I'm not even talking about the, the actual cost and taking off time from work or whatever, but, uh, uh,

1:03:45 Speaker 1 the whole concept of Fortzum Rebbe is for eltere Hasid. It was . It was for like. And Mendel Futerfas started saying everybody should go to the Rebbe. And then came Tishrei Lamed He. Tishrei Lamed He was Hakhel. Mm-hmm. And that year, Mendel Futerfas says, It was unheard of in the history of Lubavitch. The Rebbe Rashab never saw woman. Really? Woman, woman in Lubavitch never saw the Rebbe Rashab. There was no in Lubavitch. Right. Woman in Lubavitch, I heard from Lubavitch residents who only saw the Rebbe when he passed by in the coach to the train when he came back from out of town. That's when the woman in Lubavitch saw the Rebbe Rashab. Right. They never saw him. I mean, the Hasid-- even the Hasidim didn't see him too often. Right. And, and then, and for Rebbe there was no formal Yechidus for woman. I think there was once in, in, in- Exceptions ... in, in regards to the- Yeah, yeah, yeah, address. But saying on a regular basis- Right ... was only male. Sure, sure, sure. And here, Tishrei Lamed He, is a Hakhel. Hakhel is a . And who took kids to the Rebbe? It was like in the history of Lubavitch for two hundred years, that was unheard of. Right. And Tishrei Lamed He, people started going to the Rebbe. Families, girls, mothers- Hmm ... families as a whole. So that changed the whole thing. And once somebody come back, they... And now, Yu Chvat Tov Shin Lamed, we had our first

1:05:31 Speaker 1 sidur. It was the hookup, the telephone hookup. Tov Shin Lamed He. Lamed. Lamed. Yu Chvat Tov Shin Lamed. So you're eleven years old? Yeah, I was the same Sefarader. Right. The, the Moshiach Sefarader. So you're in school? At three AM. Right. Woke up at three AM. I'm thinking now you're a Yeshivah bachur. No, I was a kid, but- You're a kid, yeah ... still, but eleven years old. But, uh, the buildup and the anticipation for that first time you could hear the Rebbe's voice live on the loudspeaker. Right. That was very exciting. I mean, there was such a tension in the air. Everybody woke up that, uh, three AM. This is before Mendel also. Yes, yes. But I'm saying- So you're go- you're going back in time. Yes. But that, that was the first hookup. But since Mendel came to Chabad- What was that sidur like? What was that? Do you remember it? Uh, don't ask me to chazer the sicha, but just the experience that you could hear the Rebbe's voice, you could hear the Nigunim. And there was- Oh, how do you, you say it was the first time you heard the Rebbe's voice. Right. You never got tapes before? Yeah, but this was live. I see. This was live. Audio, video was a rare thing, you know. Right. People didn't have tape recorders. Right. It's also the fact that it's live is a different experience. Yeah. The fact that it was live. And since then, it was big farbrengens were broadcasted. But

1:06:56 Speaker 1 it's just audio, right? You didn't get video. Yes, yes. Yes, it was only audio. But still, you know, it's-- But you could hear, you could relate to, you could hear a concept, a heard. Ca-can you describe what, what, what, what were people doing at these live sidurim? They, they were sitting, they were sitting- Yeah ... uh, in a room? Yes. Just everybody at a table? Yes. No, uh, it was in the Yeshivah in Chabad, and everybody just or sitting or standing, and it was like loudspeakers in the room. There was no screen because it's just loudspeakers. And when they sang Nigun farbrengen- Yes. So you- You were singing together? Yes, yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. There was a few times that you could have reverse saying Chaim. Not for us kids, but there were some older students. There were some times that there was some res-- Uh, uh, because it was a telephone arrangement, so you could talk in, and you could send a message to Chaim Baruch and tell him that somebody wants to say something to the Rebbe. Somebody wants to say- And the Rebbe would hear it? Yes. How would he hear it? Because- There's a speaker on his microphone? No. Chaim Baruch sent a message to the Rebbe that- Ah. Uh-huh ... he sent somebody to say that this person from- Chabad ... Chabad wants to say something. Mm. Hmm. And, and then, uh, summer Lamed He- Which is, uh, August twenty, nineteen seventy-five, I landed in New York.

1:08:20 Speaker 2 You landed in New York.

1:08:21 Speaker 1 Since then, I never left.

1:08:23 Speaker 2 Well, you're in Texas now.

1:08:24 Speaker 1 Okay, that's true. I already, uh, out, out. But since then, I came to seven seventy.

1:08:30 Speaker 2 So you're sixteen years old about.

1:08:31 Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah.

1:08:33 Speaker 2 You, you had enough with Herzlia.

1:08:34 Speaker 1 Yes. And it's not because of Herzlia. Nothing against Herzlia. Just I wanted... Y-you build up anxiety, you build up anticipation, you build up, uh, the desire. It's like I want, I want, I want, I want, uh, until I finally came to New York.

1:08:53 Speaker 2 You wanted what?

1:08:55 Speaker 1 I wanted to be near the Rebbe. I wanted to hear the Rebbe, to see the Rebbe. First of all, it was to see and just, just to be in his presence.

1:09:06 Speaker 2 Why? W-were-- You're saying because of the Bochurim that were coming back from Kotzur?

1:09:09 Speaker 1 That's how it started, but then once-- There, there was the build-up for it. Obviously, there was the, the build-up. In yeshiva, it was-- I was two years in Lubavitch yeshiva. But-

1:09:20 Speaker 2 But your mashpiye-- mashpiye telling you to, to, that this is the right thing to do? Like, where you-- where is this coming from?

1:09:26 Speaker 1 No, no.

1:09:26 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying.

1:09:27 Speaker 1 This is, this is not coming from-

1:09:28 Speaker 2 Your father also not.

1:09:29 Speaker 1 It's not coming from unholy, it's not coming from yeshiva. It's coming from, uh, from Bochurim or some elder Bochurim who came back.

1:09:38 Speaker 2 Your father also not as encouraging.

1:09:39 Speaker 1 No, he's a, he's a normal person. It wouldn't have dawned on him to send a kid alone.

1:09:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:09:47 Speaker 2 No, your father also went and came back. He didn't-

1:09:49 Speaker 1 Right. That's, that's, uh, normal people. I mean, I had to-- I needed his signature to sign on the passport.

1:09:57 Speaker 2 And? What did you-- Did you forge it?

1:10:00 Speaker 1 No, but I'm saying-

1:10:01 Speaker 2 You convinced him.

1:10:02 Speaker 1 I, I got, I got his, uh, "" about, uh, about Korach.

1:10:07 Speaker 2 He wasn't, he wasn't thrilled with the idea.

1:10:09 Speaker 1 He didn't, he didn't think it's gonna actually happen maybe, or, or probably in back of his mind, he maybe thought that after Tishrei, I'll come back home.

1:10:19 Speaker 2 Right. And that, and that didn't happen.

1:10:21 Speaker 1 That didn't happen.

1:10:22 Speaker 2 You had a good time over there.

1:10:23 Speaker 1 He gave me two letters in my pocket. One letter was to Mehul Tetelbaum, which he knew from some account.

1:10:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:10:32 Speaker 1 And it... I told him, "I don't know if I'll go to Holotek or I'll go to, uh, to Morristown and this." So he gave me one, one letter to Mehul Tetelbaum that through service, maybe Mehul Tetelbaum should take me in.

1:10:46 Speaker 2 That's kind of close to the Rebbe.

1:10:47 Speaker 1 And, and a second letter was to Shmulik Keber.

1:10:51 Speaker 2 It was Rosh Yeshiva in Morristown.

1:10:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, Rosh Yeshiva Morristown. And because he knew his father, my father knew Shmulik Keber's father. Shmulik Keber's father was a shochet in Romania.

1:11:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:11:03 Speaker 1 And my father helped him with meal or whatever, so he knew of him. And-

1:11:08 Speaker 2 Where did you end up going?

1:11:09 Speaker 1 I end up going to Morristown.

1:11:11 Speaker 2 Oh, so you were there with my father?

1:11:13 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.

1:11:13 Speaker 2 You know my father from back then.

1:11:14 Speaker 1 Sure, I know.

1:11:14 Speaker 2 My father was only there for a year.

1:11:16 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:11:16 Speaker 2 How long were you there for?

1:11:16 Speaker 1 Yes, I was there seventy-six. You know we have a WhatsApp group called Morristown seventy-six.

1:11:21 Speaker 2 My father's on it?

1:11:22 Speaker 1 I don't... I don't know. There's, there's a group of Morristown seventy-six-

1:11:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:11:27 Speaker 1 Seventy-seven, which was actually two solid good years that we sat and learned.

1:11:32 Speaker 2 Uh.

1:11:33 Speaker 1 Shmulik Keber was-

1:11:33 Speaker 2 I'll ask my father if he's on it. We'll have a tale as from the podcast.

1:11:36 Speaker 1 Okay. Shmulik Keber was, uh... Then I did not realize that our age gap is as, is so narrow, and he's a little bit older than me.

1:11:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:48 Speaker 1 But

1:11:48 Speaker 2 My father liked him very much.

1:11:50 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. We all loved him.

1:11:51 Speaker 2 You loved him.

1:11:52 Speaker 1 He learned. Very energetic.

1:11:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:56 Speaker 1 He could not fall asleep in his chair.

1:11:57 Speaker 2 That's what I heard.

1:11:58 Speaker 1 He, he, he, he, he was full of life, full of energy, and he gave us a chayas and a gishmek in learning. And Meir Chazlivel was a, a giant of a person in, in

1:12:11 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:12:12 Speaker 1 And, and-

1:12:13 Speaker 2 I met, I met-

1:12:13 Speaker 1 And I had, and I had two, two very good years.

1:12:16 Speaker 2 I met some other people that, that were there. There was a Kosovsky there, right?

1:12:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, Noah. Yes.

1:12:20 Speaker 2 Kosovsky.

1:12:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:12:22 Speaker 2 And I was in his office in a... He lives in Springfield.

1:12:24 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:12:25 Speaker 2 In his office, he has a picture of him in Morristown-

1:12:28 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:12:28 Speaker 2 And next to Mishael Motche Rabashkin.

1:12:30 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:12:31 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:12:32 Speaker 1 So Motche is slightly younger than me, but he's-

1:12:34 Speaker 2 But I guess they were there together.

1:12:35 Speaker 1 Yes. Right. It was a very good year-

1:12:38 Speaker 2 Is it-

1:12:38 Speaker 1 Learning in Morristown.

1:12:39 Speaker 2 Is it true that Meir Chazlivel bring with the Bochurim was only with grape juice or some wine?

1:12:44 Speaker 1 No, he drank mashke.

1:12:45 Speaker 2 With the Bochurim also?

1:12:47 Speaker 1 Definitely. He took mashke and he gave the Bochurim, uh, it was not Borisov mashke.

1:12:52 Speaker 2 It was not Borisov.

1:12:53 Speaker 1 We drank a lot those years. I remember. Uh, when, when I came to a liquor store in the town, there was those gallon bottles, and he pro-- they probably thought that we have five hundred people there, and we mix it with another thousand. We probably dilute it in a punch or something. So-

1:13:14 Speaker 2 They wouldn't think that we-

1:13:16 Speaker 1 Consume it in a week.

1:13:17 Speaker 2 Is it true that the Russians in Russia drink a lot?

1:13:21 Speaker 1 Yes, of course.

1:13:22 Speaker 2 Where, where did Chassidim drink more, in Russia or in America?

1:13:28 Speaker 1 There was no Farbeisen in Russia. In any case, not enough Farbeisen, so you could consume more.

1:13:33 Speaker 2 So the, the Chassidim were drinking more in America than they were in Russia?

1:13:36 Speaker 1 I think so because it is more accessible, it's more available.

1:13:40 Speaker 2 So the whole time we're blaming it on Russia.

1:13:41 Speaker 1 No, no. Because here it's more accessible, more available-

1:13:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:13:45 Speaker 1 More affordable.