Ep. 97 // "One Student At A Time" w/ Rabbi Uri Perlman

00:00 Speaker 1 How many stories are there from the Rebbe to Han Halas about they're not supposed to treat Bachram that way, or they need to be more accommodating to those who are different or help them with expression and outlet or sports? Or how many times did that happen? How many times did the opposite happen? Like, "Get that guy out of here. He failed." Zero. Like zero. If we wanna be genuine, we have to be genuine. What are our values? Effort, participation, sincerity, trying, and then finding your path, direction, your outlet, the way you work, what, what's successful. Like it's, it's the authentic look to effort effort.

00:45 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-six. My name is Benzi Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. Good morning to you from Canandus?

01:07 Speaker 1 Canandus.

01:08 Speaker 2 Canandus, Pennsylvania, with Rabbi Uri Perlman, founder and director of Yeshivas Beis Menachem, otherwise and famously known as the Wilkes Yeshiva. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

01:23 Speaker 1 Yes, sir.

01:23 Speaker 2 And thank you Mendy? Mendy Payer for, uh, arranging this and making sure that I actually show up.

01:32 Speaker 1 Thanks for finding us.

01:33 Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, before, before we begin, let me just ask everyone who enjoys this podcast to like and subscribe on the various platforms, and those who really like the podcast to support the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. My voice is schwach today. All right, Rabbi Perlman, we were just-- We'll get to your story 'cause that's what we do on this podcast. But sometimes I like to start a little bit from the side as we were beginning to talk before-

02:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

02:06 Speaker 2 ... the, before the mics were rolling about the last time, and the only time I had ever encountered you in person. I was at a, um, a regional Kinus in Philadelphia in my, uh, previous job as a shliach, previous lifetime as a shliach, and I was there as one of the participants, and you were there, I suppose, as another-

02:30 Speaker 1 Shliach

02:30 Speaker 2 ... shliach in the Greater Philadelphia or Pennsylvania. That's-

02:33 Speaker 1 That's me

02:33 Speaker 2 ... No, that's a whole multi-state-

02:36 Speaker 1 Regional

02:36 Speaker 2 ... ish Kinus, so you certainly were close enough to be part of that. And, um, we didn't speak there, but I had this impression of what you said. And this goes back probably eight years or something.

02:49 Speaker 1 More than that.

02:50 Speaker 2 More, more. Ten years.

02:51 Speaker 1 Probably about ten.

02:52 Speaker 2 Ten years, yeah. Where, um, the c-conversation must have been about what was going on in yeshivas or what's going on with the younger generation, and you got up and basically told everyone that they had their heads- ... they had their heads where, where the sun doesn't shine.

03:10 Speaker 1 I don't remember, but it sounds like me.

03:13 Speaker 2 And, and I remember thinking, like, "This man is very, very frustrated about something. Nobody-- N- He, he sees something that nobody believes." And at the time, I don't think I knew what you were talking about or believed what you were saying either. If, if I remember correctly, you were saying that the younger generation, you know, this idea of Wilkes being this, at, at the time, this outlier yeshiva for the few problematic kids, and it just being, uh, you know, like, uh, an, like a, an outlier problem was completely mistaken.

03:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:48 Speaker 2 And you, you, you're not reading at all the generation that, you know, that, that's growing up, and you're taking them for granted, essentially. And yeah, I remember being one of many who kinda like, "What's this guy on about? What's this guy on about?" Um, yeah, so, you know, I, I remember, I remember that, that episode, and I confirmed it with you before we began. So, uh, you know, the, that-- A lot has changed since then for me. Um, a lot of people who, people who listen to this podcast know that, um, there's been multiple conversations about this topic, uh, s-some of them with one of the people who worked there for many years.

04:30 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

04:31 Speaker 2 Uh, Rabbi Mendel Zerkind, who's a good friend of mine today. Um, and, uh, and also, I think the world has changed. I think the, I think the-- I think if you got up and said that speech today, I, I think there would be less cynicism or less wonder about what this man is talking about. I think everybody understands what it-- or more people understand today what-

04:56 Speaker 1 What's the point of saying it when it's obvious?

04:58 Speaker 2 No, I'm, I'm not saying you should've waited, but I'm saying I think the world has changed, and I, and I think, I think, I think you were onto something well before everyone else or many other people were paying attention. So I, I think it's worth getting to your story and starting from your story and trying to understand how you got here and, and the, and the lessons that you've learned along the way. So let's begin from the beginning of your story. Where does the story of, uh, Uri Perlman begin?

05:24 Speaker 1 Um, grew up on shlichus in Kingston, Pennsylvania. Um, fa- small town shlichus, and, uh, father a teacher in a local day school and run the mikvah for the community and speak in the shul. My mother, you know, partner in all that. And, uh, very-

05:43 Speaker 2 So you grew up in Wilkes or Kingston? You said Kingston.

05:45 Speaker 1 Kingston is Wilkes-Barre. It's a-

05:46 Speaker 2 Kingston, Wilkes is the same thing

05:47 Speaker 1 ... two sides of a small river.

05:48 Speaker 2 Right.

05:50 Speaker 1 And, and going to a day school, a mixed day school. Um, the world was different. Lubavitch was different. Uh, there weren't that many yeshivas to go to. Um, I was more of a homeboy, a small town boy. Wasn't-- I wasn't gonna go away from home at, uh, ten years old, whatever. And, um, growing up as a teenager in that environment and, you know, occasionally a Frum friend, but no Lubavitchers around and whatever, um, had my struggles as a teenager, and went to LA, actually. You mentioned LA before. I went to LA for high school.

06:29 Speaker 2 Well, one sec. What do you mean by struggles? If I could open that up a little bit.

06:32 Speaker 1 Confusion about, like, what it means to be a Lubavitcher, a Hasid. Um, like, what, what does any-- what does God want from us? Um.

06:43 Speaker 2 You were, you were still in the school at the, at the time? There was a full-

06:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm talking about as a seventh, eighth grader. I'm talking about as thinking twelve, thirteen to fourteen year old.

06:50 Speaker 2 There was a full functioning day school here?

06:53 Speaker 1 In Kingston.

06:54 Speaker 2 There was a full... To this day there's a school?

06:57 Speaker 1 Well, that's a, that's a whole evolution.

07:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:01 Speaker 1 It fell apart. Yeshiva Bais Menachem came in.

07:05 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:05 Speaker 1 I brought families and-

07:07 Speaker 2 But by that time, that wasn't what was going on

07:09 Speaker 1 ... the school was still there. My wife worked in the school. My kids-

07:11 Speaker 2 Oh, when you were a kid?

07:12 Speaker 1 No, when I got married.

07:14 Speaker 2 Right.

07:14 Speaker 1 After I started Bais Menachem.

07:16 Speaker 2 Right.

07:17 Speaker 1 My wife's, my staff's wives taught in that same school.

07:21 Speaker 2 Oh, that same school.

07:22 Speaker 1 In that same school.

07:23 Speaker 2 But-

07:23 Speaker 1 But as it fell apart, we opened a cheder.

07:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:27 Speaker 1 In my house, in my basement for our families, and then other people came to town and-

07:31 Speaker 2 Right

07:32 Speaker 1 ... Kingston grew. Um.

07:33 Speaker 2 Yeah. I don't know the whole story of Kingston. I'm talking about when you were a kid. The school that you went to, that wasn't a Chabad school.

07:39 Speaker 1 No. Torah Meshorer.

07:40 Speaker 2 Torah Meshorer School.

07:41 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

07:42 Speaker 2 That-- So that school went through all, all the way through eighth grade.

07:46 Speaker 1 Eighth grade. Yeah.

07:47 Speaker 2 And, and these were-- You said there were, there weren't too many Frum kids.

07:50 Speaker 1 No.

07:51 Speaker 2 So Torah Meshorer was, was, was, was, was supporting a school for the kids of Kingston at the time.

07:57 Speaker 1 Yes.

07:58 Speaker 2 Right.

07:58 Speaker 1 And my father was the token Lubavitcher.

08:02 Speaker 2 But that's not why he was here. He wasn't there-

08:03 Speaker 1 Oh, that's why he was there.

08:04 Speaker 2 He came to Kingston for the school?

08:06 Speaker 1 Yes. He got a ra-- He had been in Wilmington, Delaware-

08:09 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

08:09 Speaker 1 ... as a shliach, also teaching in a school. Again, you have to go back forty, forty-five, fifty years. Shlichus didn't l- not the same-

08:16 Speaker 2 Very different.

08:17 Speaker 1 Yeah, not the same landscape at all. And he got a ra from the rabbi to go as a shliach to Chinuch. A shliach to teach in a day school, first in Richmond, Virginia, and then, then Wilmington, Delaware, and then Kingston.

08:28 Speaker 2 No, there were a lot of people like this.

08:29 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

08:29 Speaker 2 I had Shlomo Yaffe on the podcast. His father was in Maine in a similar-

08:32 Speaker 1 It's a whole generation. It's a whole-

08:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:34 Speaker 1 Right. Uh, but they're low-- They're under the radar. It's like they didn't have meistes, and they didn't have big s- big influence. They just taught kids, you know.

08:46 Speaker 2 So Torah Meshorer was looking for a teacher, and he was the only person ready to go, is that basically it?

08:50 Speaker 1 No, no.

08:51 Speaker 2 No.

08:51 Speaker 1 The- he-- But they took him despite being a Lubavitcher. S- whatever, he-- God arranged it. They, they found him favor-- a favorable impression.

09:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

09:00 Speaker 1 The principal at the time was a very sincere Frum Yid. And he liked, he liked that there'd be, like, a bearded Yid, that there'd be, like, a Hasid. He wanted it. And, like, my father went and taught in the conservative day school as well after getting ‹hairah› from whatever. Asked the rabbi, rabbi sent him to Dvorkin, or Dvorkin, Dvorkin sent him to Moshe Feinstein. In the end, he was told, "Yes, do it," with certain ‹tnaiim› which he stuck to to the end about under what conditions he can teach in the, in the day school. In the he-- in the conservative Torah Meshorer.

09:34 Speaker 2 Yes.

09:34 Speaker 1 So my father... And that's how he had his influence. And then, you know, from that, he would do things. You know, people over for the Shabbos meal and speaking in shul, filling in for the rabbi, who oftentimes small towns don't have a rabbi, so he was the de facto rabbi, um, for years at a time sometimes.

09:51 Speaker 2 Right.

09:52 Speaker 1 Um, so that's what I grew up in. Um, so it wasn't this strong identity of a Chabad house. It was like we're just a family in town on low-key shlichus. And there's a, there's a-- it's a tough balance. It's a very tough balance.

10:07 Speaker 2 No, I was about to ask you that. You know, uh, when you grow up with a-- in a Chabad house, there's a narrative.

10:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:13 Speaker 2 You know, we're here to change a city.

10:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:15 Speaker 2 And, you know, some shlichus kids love it, some shlichus kids hate it, whatever, but there's a narrative.

10:20 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

10:20 Speaker 2 In this case, like, the narrative is like you couldn't get a job teaching in Crown Heights. It just made it-

10:25 Speaker 1 No, he wanted to go on shlichus.

10:26 Speaker 2 No, but for you as a kid, like-

10:28 Speaker 1 No, I didn't think that. I hated Crown Heights.

10:30 Speaker 2 You hated Crown Heights.

10:31 Speaker 1 I didn't want to be in New York at all.

10:32 Speaker 2 Oh, so you liked the country?

10:33 Speaker 1 I told you I'm noise sensitive. I hate noise. I hate smell.

10:36 Speaker 2 I, I don't know. I thought maybe, maybe it could be that was when you got older.

10:39 Speaker 1 No, no. First of all, Kingston's not the country. Kingston's a small city.

10:42 Speaker 2 Right.

10:42 Speaker 1 House, house, house, house, house.

10:44 Speaker 2 Right.

10:44 Speaker 1 You know, it's just small. Um, so lacking the amenities.

10:48 Speaker 2 Right.

10:49 Speaker 1 But it's a city.

10:50 Speaker 2 But that part of it you liked.

10:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I liked growing up in small town-

10:54 Speaker 2 Right

10:54 Speaker 1 ... USA.

10:55 Speaker 2 Right. You were not-- You did not feel, "I wish I could grow up in Crown Heights."

10:58 Speaker 1 Not at all.

10:58 Speaker 2 We're, we're talking when?

11:00 Speaker 1 Uh.

11:00 Speaker 2 This is when the-

11:01 Speaker 1 When these eleven, twelve years old.

11:03 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. What years are these?

11:04 Speaker 1 Oh. Um, '98, '88, '89, '90, '91.

11:11 Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah. So you, so you-- a-and so you're, you, you're a teenager, um, struggling with questions.

11:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:19 Speaker 2 This takes a form of, like, a religious kind of, uh-

11:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, it definitely went there too.

11:24 Speaker 2 Yeah.

11:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Uh, 'cause for us, that is your identity.

11:27 Speaker 2 Right.

11:28 Speaker 1 So if you're questioning your identity and, and who am I and what's expected from me and why, it's gonna cross through everything. So I went on my own journey, or whatever you wanna call it, but, uh, I struggled with Yiddishkeit and with being a, a Yid, a Hasid, a Frum Jew, um, probably from about the age of fourteen, fifteen until eighteen, seventeen, eighteen.

11:49 Speaker 2 So this is before you went to yeshiva you were struggling.

11:51 Speaker 1 Through yeshiva. In yeshiva.

11:52 Speaker 2 In, in yeshiva.

11:53 Speaker 1 It didn't get better in yeshiva. It got worse in yeshiva.

11:55 Speaker 2 Uh, 'cause I want-- 'cause, so you went to LA, you said, right?

11:57 Speaker 1 Went to LA for three years. High school.

12:00 Speaker 2 How much of-- Like, when you come to LA, how much of the disconnect is a religious disconnect, and how much of it is a cultural disconnect? You know, coming from a small town to probably a much more brash, um, you know...

12:12 Speaker 1 Um, it was mostly religious.

12:14 Speaker 2 It was religious.

12:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Mostly religious. Yeah. I didn't struggle much with fitting in or being liked or friends or sports or... I was good at all that. I, I had friends. I, I can, I could get by.

12:30 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

12:31 Speaker 1 Um, I just... I, I guess ultimately it was a person who was questioning from a, like, a young age of, like, who am I and what am I and what am I here for, and what are we all here for? And I thought everybody lives like that. Really it was only much later in life that I discovered that that's not how everyone thinks or, or lives, and it's actually... You know, like sometimes when you share what's obvious to you, it would be like, "What's, what's up with this guy?"

12:57 Speaker 2 Right. You're saying so that, that pattern started early.

12:59 Speaker 1 That pattern started early.

13:00 Speaker 2 You were-

13:00 Speaker 1 I'm comfortable with it, yeah.

13:02 Speaker 2 You spoke your mind-

13:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:03 Speaker 2 ... and you-

13:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:04 Speaker 2 Sitting here in front of the backdrop where I recorded the intro to this podcast, it's hard to believe that we are now just a few weeks away, the milestone of recording and publishing 100 episodes of the Homesick for Lubavitch podcast. Looking back at the past three years, the journey has been far more than I imagined when I started. I've met so many interesting people. I've spent so many hours discussing their ideas and their perspectives. Their ideas have changed me, have changed how I think, have changed how I live, have changed how I feel, have changed how I interact with others, and I know that many of you that listen regularly who have reached out to me and shared how it's... what it means to you feel the same. This podcast was started here in this studio as a small idea, has turned into something that thousands of people look forward to each week. It brings ideas to the table. It brings perspectives to the table that are then shared and multiplied in conversations between thousands of people around the world, whether it's at shul, at a Shabbos table, on a WhatsApp chat, that has opened and encouraged conversations that have been closed and shut off for too long, and has shown that those conversations can be had in a respectful and patient and productive way. As I look for what comes after the 100 episodes, my feeling is that what comes next has to be more intentional, has to be bigger, has to be bolder.

14:34 Speaker 2 There are a number of projects that we have in the works that will take the podcast to a new level, will open up new kinds of content that are aligned with the vision of the original podcast. In the next few weeks, we'll be launching the 100 for 100 campaign, which will raise $100,000 to make those initiatives possible. Thanks to a few generous friends of the podcast, we're already 20% of the way there. I look forward to sharing with you updates about the campaign, as well as the initiatives that will follow. The impact and reach of Homesick for Lubavitch is just beginning. Mazel tov. So you, you were going to your... You were in the mesivta in LA?

15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:11 Speaker 2 And you were asking these kind of questions-

15:12 Speaker 1 I wouldn't call it mesivta. I would call it high school.

15:14 Speaker 2 Right. Fair enough.

15:16 Speaker 1 And it was more high school then than now.

15:17 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

15:18 Speaker 1 Very much high school.

15:19 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I mean, to this day, they still have, uh, two tracks, I think. They have, uh...

15:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:26 Speaker 2 So you, you, um, you were, you were voicing your questions to the faculty?

15:32 Speaker 1 No, shluchim.

15:34 Speaker 2 To the older bachur shluchim?

15:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:36 Speaker 2 And this is-- I know it sounds trivial to like, um, to pin it to a year, but I think it's important in the Chabad thinking. This is, this is the late '80s, early '90s-

15:47 Speaker 1 Early '90s

15:47 Speaker 2 ... you said. Right. So before the Rebbe's stroke.

15:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:50 Speaker 2 Lubavitch is supposedly flying high on Mashiach.

15:55 Speaker 1 Yes.

15:55 Speaker 2 Uh, you know, I, I have my, I have my suspicions about that narrative.

16:00 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

16:00 Speaker 2 Uh, you know, your story is just one more data point.

16:05 Speaker 1 I'm a, a... What's the word? I'm like, I'm like a prototype of , of the, of that era.

16:12 Speaker 2 You're a prototype of the-

16:13 Speaker 1 Not a prototype. What... I, I-

16:15 Speaker 2 The s-

16:15 Speaker 1 ... don't know the word.

16:16 Speaker 2 It sounds more like you're the opposite of a, of a prototype.

16:19 Speaker 1 No. I'm, I'm the ca- I'm a case study of the, the bad and the good.

16:23 Speaker 2 Oh, no, but my point is that, like, uh, people talk about-

16:25 Speaker 1 The pre and the post

16:26 Speaker 2 ... people talk about that era as if everyone was just living, like we're different u- we're different people.

16:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:34 Speaker 2 Like we didn't have doubts. We, we, you know-

16:37 Speaker 1 Far from it.

16:37 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right.

16:39 Speaker 1 I'm talking shluchim of ours. I'm talking the bachur themselves. I'm talking like... I don't wanna get too graphic, but far, far from that, that depiction.

16:50 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

16:53 Speaker 1 And that was in the era where we were constantly getting brought to zal in middle of the, at whatever time, the time difference, um, in middle of this seder or that seder or that whatever, for hookups, for farbrengens, and there was farbrengen a lot.

17:06 Speaker 2 Um, after mincha maariv.

17:07 Speaker 1 After mincha maariv, yeah.

17:08 Speaker 2 Right. The, uh, more like sichas than like-

17:10 Speaker 1 Yeah

17:10 Speaker 2 ... normal farbrengens.

17:11 Speaker 1 And we were flying in for Yitzvat.

17:13 Speaker 2 Right.

17:13 Speaker 1 And there were girls and, and like the whole yeshiva would go and there's-

17:17 Speaker 2 And there's, there's this, there's this, for sure, a sense, at least fr-from a narrative standpoint, that, you know, we're m- we're taking off, Mashiach's coming.

17:25 Speaker 1 100%.

17:26 Speaker 2 And you feel completely-

17:28 Speaker 1 No, not completely. Um, just partly yes, and partly like-

17:33 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

17:33 Speaker 1 ... a lot of this is not speaking to me or working.

17:37 Speaker 2 Which part isn't working to you?

17:39 Speaker 1 So that's a little tricky to figure out, you know, 30 years later or whatever, um, this is all going on in the mind of a 14, 15, 16-year-old.

17:46 Speaker 2 Sure.

17:46 Speaker 1 Um, with hormones raging and with, uh, s- discovering a mind of their own and independence, but that part. So you're-

17:54 Speaker 2 No, but your problem is... You described your problem as Lubavitch. Your problem is-

17:58 Speaker 1 The, the pro-

17:58 Speaker 2 Like I'd rather... Some people say, "I wanted to be mon Orthodox," so, you know.

18:01 Speaker 1 No, that... No, I was all or nothing kind of guy.

18:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Okay.

18:04 Speaker 1 My problem was the things that resonated with me as real as like what Chabad is about, the things the Rebbe's speaking about, it's not what I was seeing being lived and how people were being treated, and I, I didn't see the love of Lubavitch I saw control, I saw systems, I saw oppression, I saw making sure people don't express themselves. I s- I mean, and I could give you some, like, I don't, I don't know if I should, uh, 'cause I'm not trying to depict anybody or, or out anybody, but, like, sincere wanting more and better and authentic was met with, "How dare you question the way we do things?"

18:45 Speaker 2 I mean, give me an example. Just don't say a name.

18:46 Speaker 1 I was a 15-year-old, and really at a crossroads internally between, like, do I go spend my time with the cool kids? We were getting drunk every Friday night at, um, you know, at 15. I was hanging out with the older guys.

19:00 Speaker 2 In a chasidishe kiruv habrion setting?

19:02 Speaker 1 No. No. We were-

19:02 Speaker 2 Or, or Melrose?

19:04 Speaker 1 No. In yeshiva, in a side room, just getting drunk.

19:07 Speaker 2 Okay. For the sake of getting drunk?

19:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, I'm 15, I'm with 18, 19, 20-year-olds, like, and, and I was kind of mature and kind of in- intelligent enough to, to talk with them, so they included... They allowed me into their circle.

19:21 Speaker 2 In general, disenchanted gives you a extra few years, right?

19:25 Speaker 1 I think so.

19:25 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:26 Speaker 1 Yes.

19:26 Speaker 2 It makes you feel, it makes you seem older if you're disenchanted-

19:28 Speaker 1 I, I-

19:28 Speaker 2 ... with the world.

19:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I was, I had a certain depth to me even as a kid. Like, I-

19:32 Speaker 2 It go- it goes both ways.

19:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, and, and like I... It was at a crossroads where I was like I was ready to go all in and just, like, learn all day, drop out of English, and, like, change my clothes and, like, buy in all the way. "Okay, let's... I'm gonna do this." I went to go speak with hanhala, and they-

19:49 Speaker 2 Oh, wait. Because you were drinking or you were ready to drop out?

19:52 Speaker 1 No, I'm saying I was at a stage where that's what I was up to.

19:54 Speaker 2 And you were ready to drop it.

19:55 Speaker 1 And I was ready to drop it all and just go all in on the holy stuff.

20:00 Speaker 2 Right.

20:00 Speaker 1 And I attempted to do that in a way that would work. Like you described that there's two tracks in LA in Mesivta, in the high school.

20:07 Speaker 2 Right.

20:07 Speaker 1 And in my days, I don't know how it is when you were there, but in my days there was the high school track, which was the more relaxed, modern, not so serious people, and then there was the, what do they call it? Um, what, what did they call it in your days? The second track.

20:22 Speaker 2 Um-

20:23 Speaker 1 Like, the guys who learned all day

20:24 Speaker 2 ... I was in talmid chacham in the

20:25 Speaker 1 Okay. So the guys who learned Torah all day, and it was the, like, the more intense, serious guys, but they weren't any, doing any serious learning. They were still being treated like a bunch of high school kids in a classroom with a boring teacher teaching something no one wanted to learn, and wasn't necessarily going anywhere. So I, like, I made a suggestion to the hanhala, a, a request, a suggestion, a plea. Like, "I wanna go learn all day. But can I learn with shluchim or, like, can I learn? I wanna learn all day, not trade in the nonsense secular studies," which was a joke. I used to sit in the back of class on the floor and read a book because I had learnt that stuff in seventh grade. Literally, I used to get straight As having learnt that stuff in seventh grade. And, like, it was an, it was understood between me and the teachers, like, "I'm not gonna disturb your class and I'm gonna ace everything. Just don't bother me. Let me sit in the corner and I'll read my books." And they, we had this understanding with each other. The principal loved me 'cause when the, the achievement tests would come out, I was like top 2% in the country. Like, I was good. Like, and I didn't disturb anybody. I just wanna do my thing. So I, I made the suggestion, like, "Let me learn, like, real. I wanna learn." And, like, I got shut down and threatened to get, get

21:35 Speaker 1 kicked out, and like, "Don't question the way we do things. You make your own deal." Like, I'm like, "Okay." So, so that sent me, like, further off. "Okay, I, I..." I just, like, doubled down and, "Okay, this isn't for me and I'll just go. I'll go have fun."

21:48 Speaker 2 Right.

21:49 Speaker 1 'Cause there's no... I wasn't even ha- I wasn't even having fun. It was just like, "I'll go numb myself," or, "I'll just go distract myself 'cause there's nothing here." They don't even want you to succeed and grow. They want you to just not rock the boat.

22:01 Speaker 2 Right.

22:01 Speaker 1 So that's, that's my, that's my high school experience.

22:06 Speaker 2 Right. So how far, how far did, did, how far did it go in terms of pushing you out? I mean, is this all in your head?

22:13 Speaker 1 No.

22:13 Speaker 2 Are you, are you beginning to say, "Okay, like, I'm not interested in it," like, uh, dropping out of yeshiva?

22:18 Speaker 1 Yes. So after three years, I survi- I s- I consider it I survived, and most of my class at the time survived those three years. And then I just left and was out of yeshiva. I went to, uh, Boston, which didn't really have a yeshiva. Boston at the time had a day school for local kids that were not Lubavitch, and it had a small branch of high school attached to that with like a day was like, you know, 9:30 to 4:00 PM, and there was a dorm and a building for shluchim.

22:49 Speaker 2 Right.

22:49 Speaker 1 There were like 14 or 16 shluchim. I had some characters of shluchim. YY Jacobson was one of my shluchim.

22:54 Speaker 2 I just interviewed someone, Mendy Katz.

22:56 Speaker 1 He was not one of my shluchim.

22:57 Speaker 2 He probably had been there.

22:58 Speaker 1 Moishy Pinson was one of my shluchim.

22:59 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

22:59 Speaker 1 Shachna Gottlieb was one of my shluchim. Um, Mendy Mutschkin. I don't know who, who you know, but-

23:04 Speaker 2 I, I, I know of most of them, yeah.

23:06 Speaker 1 I had some fun times with the shluchim. Shimon Freilich was one of my shluchim.

23:10 Speaker 2 Oh, he, he taught me in Hong Kong.

23:12 Speaker 1 Right? Okay.

23:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, he was my teacher in Hong Kong.

23:13 Speaker 1 I, I, I'm connecting now.

23:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:15 Speaker 1 Um, so that's where I also, like... So I just went there 'cause there was nothing going on there, and it was the kind of place where, like, I just needed to get away from this LA experience.

23:27 Speaker 2 There's anybody else your age there?

23:28 Speaker 1 One friend of mine came and joined me.

23:30 Speaker 2 So you were like the junior sh- shluchim?

23:34 Speaker 1 No, we weren't junior shluchim at all. We were kids who had, didn't belong there. There was nothing there for us, and I lasted all of three months or so.

23:40 Speaker 2 It's basically your parents desperate for a place for you, so they found this arrangement.

23:44 Speaker 1 They... I found it and they went along with it.

23:47 Speaker 2 Right.

23:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:47 Speaker 2 Basically, they, they... Yeah. I mean, this is a story that, uh, sadly many people are familiar with, where basically the typical options run out, and then it's like, okay, is there a place I can just kind of-

24:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

24:01 Speaker 2 ... uh, uh, dump is, is too negative a word, but more like-

24:06 Speaker 1 Be left alone

24:06 Speaker 2 ... where can I hou- where can I house my child in a, in a yeshiva setting?

24:10 Speaker 1 And I was just looking for somewhere to be left alone and, and not persecuted anymore.

24:14 Speaker 2 Well, like, why not go to college?

24:16 Speaker 1 First of all, I was young. And second of all, I wasn't looking for... Like, I wasn't ambitious. I was, I was looking for something real.

24:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:26 Speaker 1 So in Boston, I actually connected very much with a lot of these shluchim, and I used to learn for... 'Cause my marm, I got introduced to Sefer Hamaamar Yiddish.

24:34 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:34 Speaker 1 And at night I was going out and having a good time.

24:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:37 Speaker 1 And we got up to trouble. But I was looking, I was hanging out with the shluchim from Brengens and Chavez. Like, I was looking for something real, and it was, it was not deep beneath the surface. It was very much out in the open. I would get up and learn chasidus with them. I wanted something, and I got a little taste of some of it with some of these shluchim in Boston, but I didn't last because it was, it was, it was ridiculous.

25:00 Speaker 2 Too much chaos. But l- let me, let me, let me play devil's advocate for a moment. I think it's important for the sake of this conversation.

25:05 Speaker 1 Go ahead.

25:06 Speaker 2 You know, this, this ki- this language is not unfamiliar to me and probably to most people listening. You know, this idea of someone saying, "I'm looking for something real, and I don't find it in the system. I don't find it in the yeshiva." Right?

25:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:24 Speaker 2 The, you know, the, the devil's... The, the... Playing, playing devil's advocate-

25:29 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

25:29 Speaker 2 ... with that, you could say, you know, it's easy to say that what you want is real.

25:34 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

25:35 Speaker 2 Right? And, like, you know, every troublemaker, and I, and I use that as a pejorative just for the sake of the argument.

25:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:42 Speaker 2 You know, every single person says, "Yeah, I, I'm, I'm looking for real stuff. That's why I'm into this, you know, but I'm not into that." You know? And you end up in this, like, very subjective world where it's, it's, it's utter chaos, right? Because you're basically letting teenagers decide. They, they basically now decide the rules because it's all about authenticity, and this is real to me, and I get to decide at my ripe old age of 16 or 17 what is real and who's real and... Right? And, you know, like, it's similar to saying, like, you know, kids say, um, you know, let's say you're raising children, and they're like, "I'm only gonna eat what I, what I like." Right? "And, and, you know, what I find tasty is, is candy and steak," maybe. We'll, we'll be... Those two things.

26:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:32 Speaker 2 You know what I mean? And, like, as a parent, you're like, "Oh, I, I have to go along with it." No, that'd be crazy. That'd be, that'd be madness. It just wouldn't work. You know, so how do you, like... Like, looking back at your story, uh, like, how do you defend this idea? Do you defend this idea of, like, "I'm just looking for something real"? Like, who gets to decide what's real? Well, like you, you said before, you know, you're a teenager with raging hormones or whatever. You know, a lot of people say, "Yeah, chasidus to me is real." Really? The, the Torah's real, but then you're not living up to it. You know? Like, you, you love the ideas, but then you don't wanna live the life that it implies you should live. How real is it to you? So how... Like, how do you defend the idea of real, the subjective realness that you're talking about?

27:18 Speaker 1 So it's a good question. I think there's a few different ways to answer it, but I, I think I'd start with this. There are layers here. So there's... You know, we have sets, different sets of values. We have values imposed by systems, so be a good student, get a grade like this. I had a conversation with somebody at a chinuch conference two weeks ago about you don't define students by the grades they get, and I was like, "What?" Like, that's how it stills work. It's still working that way? Like, so some... The values, this is values apparently. Values are grades. Now, you could take issue with that and you could say like, "Ah, you're being too floaty, too abstract. What do you mean grades don't matter?" No, I mean, I think from Torah sources, from chasidus sources, from the Rebbe's interactions and guidance to han shallos. No, grades are not what matters. What matters is involvement, participation, effort, and s- sincerity, being there. You could say value is toeing the line, the party line, and doing everything you're told to do, so that becomes called kabbalah so. Okay, except the sources don't say that, and the Rebbe never says that. What, what does it say? What it says is accept upon yourself kabbalas ol, not hatalas ol, not hatmanas ol, not simas ol.

28:49 Speaker 2 Right.

28:49 Speaker 1 Like, so, so now we're talking about definitions of real things, and so if we wanna have this conversation, then we have to have the full conversation. Values are determined by sources of wisdom and sources of truth, by chasidus, by Torah, by shulchan aruch, by the Rebbe, not by me or by you. So let's, let's really get down to it. Let's look, let's open up the Rebbe's letters. Let's open up the Maamar. Let's open up the sifrus. Let's look at the guidance that was given, and let's find out what matters. So how many stories are there from the Rebbe to han shallos about they're not supposed to treat bachurim that way, or they need to be more accommodating to those who are different or help them with expression and outlet or sports or how many times did that happen? How many times did the opposite happen? Like, "Get that guy out of here, he failed." Zero. Like zero. So, so now we're talking culture.

29:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

29:39 Speaker 1 So what's the value here?

29:41 Speaker 2 Right.

29:41 Speaker 1 So if we wanna get real about this, again, using that word, I know I, I understand we overuse it, and it's too whatever. But if we wanna be genuine, we have to be genuine. What are our values? Effort, participation, sincerity, trying, and then finding your path, direction, your outlet, the way you work, what, what's successful. Like, it's, it's the authentic look to echad, echad. Everybody as an individual, and that's clearly the Rebbe's, like, MO-

30:18 Speaker 2 Right

30:18 Speaker 1 ... every individual, except when it comes to yeshivas or communities, then we throw that completely out the window, and now you have no individuality, and you have no personality, and you're not meant to, and our goal is to shut that down in the name of... You know what that sounds like, right?

30:37 Speaker 2 Yeah.

30:37 Speaker 1 Communism.

30:38 Speaker 2 Look, so, you know, so, I, I mean, look, uh, my guess is I probably agree with you more than disagree, but I, I think it's too easy. It would be too convenient to b- to, to, um, to attack the other side as just being a bunch of Stalinist, you know, tot-totalitarians.

30:57 Speaker 1 I'm not.

30:57 Speaker 2 There, there are people like that, and they're power trippers or whatever. But, uh, I mean, let's talk more in an idealized-

31:03 Speaker 1 I'm not

31:03 Speaker 2 ... idealized sit- like idealized state.

31:06 Speaker 1 I, I, I wanna s-

31:06 Speaker 2 Is there, is there no, is there no point of having- ... storm?

31:10 Speaker 1 Of course there is.

31:11 Speaker 2 Right.

31:11 Speaker 1 Of course there is. This is not about that. This is about what, what trumps what. What is the higher priority?

31:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

31:20 Speaker 1 Seder is a high priority, and you should come and visit while we operate. Seder, like, we throw water in guys' faces to get them out of bed in the morning.

31:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

31:29 Speaker 1 Why? Because you need to get up, and you need to be in Seder, and you need to have a life, and you need to be productive. But we don't force them learn this and get this grade on it. We give them choices, like whatever. And I'm not saying everyone should do that, and I, I, I need to make this disclaimer. I'm answering a point, and sometimes to make a point you have to say it in the extreme for the distinction. I defend yeshivas all the time to the guys and to their parents when they have timeliness. Like, they don't know. You don't know how hard it is to run, and you don't know how to manage 50 or 100, 200 people, and here's what happens. It... I defend it, like, all of the time. My main point to our guys is be self-accountable and become your own human being.

32:11 Speaker 2 Right.

32:11 Speaker 1 But I'm... We're, we're having a discussion here about, like, what's the real issue? The real issue is what are our values?

32:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

32:18 Speaker 1 And that, that has to be put on the table as many times as it has to be said. What, what do we really stand for? What does Brit Milah mean? What does Kabbalah Zohar mean? What does Avodah Zara mean? What does Limud HaTanakh mean? What does Shluchus mean? What does Hasidus mean?

32:31 Speaker 2 Right.

32:32 Speaker 1 And so I'm not saying let everyone call the shots. I'm not saying anarchy, and I don't think that I should've been given free rein to do, to do whatever I wanted as a 15 or 16 or 17-year-old. What I'm saying is, how do you treat the person who is looking outside the box? So there's a way you say yes or no. There's a way you handle. So like, if I had been spoken to, I respected the rules. I, I was someone who... I came to Seder. I woke up every day.

33:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

33:02 Speaker 1 I learned. I got good grades on all my tests until I reached a certain point of disenfranchisement, disenfranchised that we used to have competitions in my class about who could get the lowest grade on the Gemara test.

33:13 Speaker 2 And you were good at that, too?

33:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. But that was, like, when we got angry.

33:18 Speaker 2 I see.

33:18 Speaker 1 That was when we were 17 and, like, fed up with three years of being like, "No one cares about us. No one cares about whether we're even doing this. All they care about how it looks."

33:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, so, uh, no, absolutely. I agree, I agree with that, and it makes a lot of sense.

33:34 Speaker 1 So I wanna have all the real discussions.

33:36 Speaker 2 Right.

33:37 Speaker 1 And I think there's no reason that that has to be a Wilkes thing. Everyone have the real discussions, and like I said, I've said this at Kinus, and, and sometimes they hate the way I say it, sometimes they appreciate the way I say it. Don't change the rules, make everyone wear a white shirt. Just here's the deal. Don't make the white shirt something it's not. The white shirt is a uniform, and it keeps things simple.

34:00 Speaker 2 Right.

34:00 Speaker 1 Do not make it Shulchan Aruch or holy. Don't make it Hasidus and Rebbe, a-and don't make a blue shirt a problem.

34:08 Speaker 2 Right.

34:08 Speaker 1 Like, just, just say it what it is, and don't overplay it, don't underplay it. So that's what I mean when I say genuine, when I say real.

34:17 Speaker 2 Right.

34:17 Speaker 1 So let's speak Kabbalah Zohar. We speak about Kabbalah Zohar here more than in any other yeshiva.

34:22 Speaker 2 Really?

34:22 Speaker 1 I've been told that by other hanshallahs.

34:25 Speaker 2 Interesting.

34:25 Speaker 1 And our guys have more Kabbalah Zohar, but they know what it is.

34:29 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

34:30 Speaker 1 They make choices. So what, what do people say about Wilkes guys? They, they're holding wherever they're holding.

34:36 Speaker 2 Kabbalah Zohar is not a rule, it's a choice, is what you're saying.

34:38 Speaker 1 Yes.

34:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:39 Speaker 1 The... guy, our guys are holding at all sorts of levels, top to bottom, but whatever they have is theirs.

34:45 Speaker 2 Right.

34:45 Speaker 1 It's genuine. That's what people... That's, that's, that's what we're known for.

34:50 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, the obvious corollary in the girls' world, I know you also, you start, you started a girls' high school.

34:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:55 Speaker 2 Um, is, is Tznius. Sa-same problem.

34:58 Speaker 1 Correct.

34:59 Speaker 2 Right? Like, y-you, you can say there are standards for our school because we don't wanna have police, we don't wanna have to police exactly what you're, you know, the, the varieties and all the gray areas.

35:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:10 Speaker 2 But then to say that this is also Shulchan Aruch when the kids see their very frum parents not doing that.

35:18 Speaker 1 So that's a different issue 'cause there you have a real crossover where halakha and where's cultural-

35:23 Speaker 2 Right

35:23 Speaker 1 ... and cutting corners. And I gotta tell you, from our experience, my experience with the girls school, the girls are so turned off with the Tznius issue-

35:33 Speaker 2 Big time

35:34 Speaker 1 ... that you can't even have the conversation with them about what's real about it and what's not. Like, and, and this is, I'm speaking from recent-

35:40 Speaker 2 The baby's out with the bathwater

35:42 Speaker 1 ... it's like with guys, we can win them over.

35:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

35:45 Speaker 1 It just takes some time. They see, like, "Okay, it was being misrepresented until now. Now I get it." And so now many times guys, most of our guys have beards. But we don't make them. They just... There's nothing to fight, there's nothing to resist. There's, like, okay, people I look up to have beards, and the value-

36:01 Speaker 2 It's actually easier to have one than to

36:03 Speaker 1 It's easier to have one unless the guy's trying to make a statement or he's still angry.

36:09 Speaker 2 Right, right.

36:09 Speaker 1 Most of our guys, most of our guys go to mikvah.

36:12 Speaker 2 Right.

36:12 Speaker 1 But it's not because someone made them. It's because we, like, we presented, like, what this thing is.

36:17 Speaker 2 Right.

36:18 Speaker 1 And, like, if you present it, like, here's my main point to the broader yeshiva

36:23 Speaker 2 It sounds like you're a Chabad house. You're operating like a Chabad house, essentially.

36:26 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you. That's all we're doing.

36:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:28 Speaker 1 That's all we're doing. Let's present Judaism.

36:30 Speaker 2 Right.

36:30 Speaker 1 And let's not dismiss everybody who isn't already sold and hooked on it, because the reason they're not sold and hooked on it could be personal, their issue. Even if it is, so what? We have all kinds of weirdos and interesting people who come into our Chabad houses, and we have a lot of patience for them. So how about our own troubled people? But the reason why most of our guys and girls are not hooked and interested and inspired is because things were not presented right. So we have to be better at that, and we have to be better at living it and representing it. So that's my message, and there's a lot you have to get through to get there, and it ticks some people off on the way, so be it.

37:10 Speaker 2 Right.

37:10 Speaker 1 But I think every yeshiva should be a Chabad house in attitude. And not just an attitude, the way a yeshiva should run should be with the type of dedication shluchim, they take care of their community members top to bottom. And this is the way it was in Lubavitch.

37:26 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

37:28 Speaker 1 From, from the, the mashpia to the way it was in Chabad in the original, from back in the, like, mamish, the Rebber Shabbos days.

37:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

37:35 Speaker 1 The mashpia, they lived with the bocher. Th-they-- their lives were the bocher top to bottom. It wasn't just learning, it wasn't just teaching, it was life cycle.

37:45 Speaker 2 Right.

37:46 Speaker 1 And, like, so what, what am I most proud of our yeshiva? Like, how many guys want us to come to their weddings a-and give us a berakhah under the chuppah. And, like, we're such a part of their lives. I had three married guys with their families this Shabbos, and next, this coming week I'm gonna have another four, five, six. Like, people come to visit, they come spend Yom Tov with us. Like, this is their family. This is their community.

38:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:10 Speaker 1 And, uh, there's no reason... You don't have to be Wilks to do, to do that. You have to have the attitude of, "Yes, my main focus, unlike a Chabad house shliach, my main focus is on education, certain teaching of certain subjects to a certain demographic." Whereas a Chabad house, it's everything for everybody, depends what's needed. But you have to... In a, in a Chabad house, you also have to focus a l- mostly on teaching Torah.

38:35 Speaker 2 What do you think is really holding back yeshivas from doing that? Or-

38:38 Speaker 1 It's, it's an attitude. It's an attitude of, like, there's a difference between Chabad house and yeshiva, and yeshiva's about... I, I, I -

38:46 Speaker 2 No, but you're saying, but you're saying the tradition of yeshivas was also this way.

38:49 Speaker 1 So here's my theory. What happens is yeshivas started becoming these, um, societal measuring pieces where, like, we now there's all this judgment in society. Where, where do you rank? And, uh, the parents, are they gonna support you or do they like you? Are they gonna send their next kid to you? You have to live up to certain appearances, standards, and people got shallow.

39:13 Speaker 2 You're saying the yeshivas are scared of what's gonna happen if they're real?

39:17 Speaker 1 Yes. I, I know this from personal conversation with many, Hanan. Yes.

39:22 Speaker 2 So-

39:22 Speaker 1 They, they would do more for students if they weren't afraid that they'll trigger seven-

39:29 Speaker 2 Right

39:29 Speaker 1 ... influential parents and, and a, a, a domino effect. Yes.

39:33 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company that I have run for close to ten years. Today, Yuvala Media works with organizations all around the country, bringing their stories to life in a way that is both meaningful and memorable. Whether it's a video for a milestone dinner, an online fundraiser, or a building campaign, we begin each project with the same question: "What does your audience need to know about you to feel more connected to your cause?" Once we answer that question, we tailor-make a video that best addresses this need. Over the years, we have built a reputation for top-of-the-line visuals while also being responsive and reliable. As one of our clients put it, "A combination of technical excellence and real heart." If you are looking to make a video for an upcoming dinner, fundraiser, or building campaign, please reach out to us to schedule a fifteen-minute phone call to see if we can make something beautiful together. Email us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the show. No, in a way, it's a more, it's a more sympathetic def... It's almost a defense of the yeshivas-

40:39 Speaker 1 Yes

40:39 Speaker 2 ... in a way.

40:40 Speaker 1 I do de- I do defend them.

40:41 Speaker 2 Well, no, I'm saying it, it's not like it's not that they don't care.

40:43 Speaker 1 They do care.

40:44 Speaker 2 They're, they're too scared to care.

40:45 Speaker 1 They do care.

40:46 Speaker 2 They're too scared to care.

40:47 Speaker 1 Yes. To be in this business, so, so to speak, business, any, any business-

40:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, you make a lot of money in this business.

40:51 Speaker 1 Where you make so much money and you have so f- like, so much support and-

40:55 Speaker 2 Right

40:55 Speaker 1 ... respect.

40:56 Speaker 2 Right.

40:56 Speaker 1 There's no glamour in it. There's no money in it.

40:59 Speaker 2 It has a shalom us.

41:00 Speaker 1 It... Basically.

41:01 Speaker 2 Yeah.

41:01 Speaker 1 So the only reason you do it is 'cause you really believe you could teach and make a difference-

41:05 Speaker 2 Right

41:06 Speaker 1 ... and, and influence a generation. The problem is that people are going into it a little too, um, z- like blinders, narrow focus of like, "Ah, the only way I can make a difference is I teach Gemara well. I farbreng well. I teach Hasidism specifically this. I'm really good at teaching my mamash. That's the problem. You could be good at that, and you sh- you should know your mile list, and that should be your main focus, and that probably going to be where your bread and butter is. But if you're gonna forget about the person you're talking to and the fact that they have needs outside your class and needs outside the mimra or the Gemara that you're teaching, so y-y-you lost the plot.

41:48 Speaker 2 I know we, we, we didn't quite-- we didn't get to this in a linear way, but y-y-you, you eventually started your yeshiva. Uh, like, did that start as like, "I'm gonna open up a yeshiva," or was that, was that organic? Like, what were you doing before you opened up the yeshiva? And I-

42:02 Speaker 1 So picking up the story from before. So after I left Boston, I ended up leaving Boston, ended up in Kfar HaBaitar for a few years of just drifting.

42:10 Speaker 2 As a bocher.

42:11 Speaker 1 As a bocher. As a, as a seventeen-year-old. And then the next year, I made a life decision and went to Melbourne to yeshiva, Yeshivat Oz VeHadar. And then I sort of was cut off from all of my old associations, and I, I was in an environment where they just let you be a person.

42:30 Speaker 2 Really?

42:31 Speaker 1 Yes.

42:31 Speaker 2 That was your experience in Melbourne?

42:32 Speaker 1 Yes.

42:33 Speaker 2 'Cause the yeshiva there is a, is a, is a, is a stickler for rules.

42:36 Speaker 1 But I think... Yes. And like, like I said to you before, I had never had a problem with rules.

42:39 Speaker 2 Oh.

42:39 Speaker 1 I had a problem with the authenticity and what's it being presented as.

42:43 Speaker 2 I've never heard of anybody critique his authenticity.

42:46 Speaker 1 Exactly.

42:47 Speaker 2 Right.

42:47 Speaker 1 And so I loved Rabbi Cohen.

42:49 Speaker 2 Interesting.

42:50 Speaker 1 I, I have no problem with him. And I'm not-

42:52 Speaker 2 I mean, 'cause pe- 'cause people that don't know-

42:53 Speaker 1 He is the biggest-

42:54 Speaker 2 People that don't know who, what we're talking about, we're talking about a very British man.

42:57 Speaker 1 Very British.

42:58 Speaker 2 I, I very much want to have on the podcast.

42:59 Speaker 1 You could run your life by his movements. Y- he is a clock.

43:03 Speaker 2 Uh, let me tell you a story.

43:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:04 Speaker 2 And I say this with his-- a-about him. Usually, I don't talk of it because I think it's a, I think it's a good story. We lived in Australia for a few years.

43:13 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

43:13 Speaker 2 Um, in the summers, my, my pa- my parents would take us for a few months for us to have chinuch, um, um, i-in the school, in the, in the yeshiva college there.

43:24 Speaker 1 I went back as a Shliach

43:26 Speaker 2 You were there when we were there?

43:27 Speaker 1 I don't remember you from then.

43:28 Speaker 2 No.

43:29 Speaker 1 All right.

43:29 Speaker 2 I don't think... Yeah. So, um, this was '95 to '99, 2000. Anyway, um, so one of the summer... One of the years that we were there, we lived, we lived right... We lived in an apartment right by a, um, across a cr- uh, what's it called? Where there's a streetlight where you could-

43:51 Speaker 1 Mm

43:51 Speaker 2 ... cross, uh, I think it was Balclava-

43:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

43:54 Speaker 2 ... uh, Balclava.

43:55 Speaker 1 Okay.

43:56 Speaker 2 You, you know what I'm talking about.

43:57 Speaker 1 I remember.

43:57 Speaker 2 By Yeshiva College. Like Balclava and Alexandria or something.

43:59 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

43:59 Speaker 2 There was a streetlight there, and Rabbi Cohen would cross at that streetlight every morning.

44:05 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

44:06 Speaker 2 And one time my father came to the streetlight. He was going to shacharis or something, and he finds Rabbi Cohen there at the streetlight, and he's very, very anxious, very, very irritated. Uh, and my father asked Rabbi Cohen what's wrong. And Rabbi Cohen says, "I come to this streetlight every morning, and it's usually a thirty-second wait, and today it's an extra ten seconds."

44:27 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:27 Speaker 2 So-

44:28 Speaker 1 I believe it fully.

44:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:30 Speaker 1 I spent a year-

44:30 Speaker 2 I say that's the kind, that's the kind of man he is

44:32 Speaker 1 ... very principled and but wise.

44:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

44:36 Speaker 1 And he gave, for me, and this worked for a lot of guys, maybe it's different now, he's older and, and whatever, but he's m- m- more in the background, in other words.

44:46 Speaker 2 Right.

44:48 Speaker 1 He gave the space so that I started actually learning. Like, no one's interfering. Like, he didn't harass me because I would go out and play pool and put on a T-shirt after Seder.

44:59 Speaker 2 Right. 'Cause by Seder you were learning.

45:01 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. And I would come... Like, I was there. I was, like, good. I was good. And but that's how I'd been in previous yeshivas, but in previous yeshivas they didn't care how you were doing.

45:10 Speaker 2 They harassed you about how you looked outside.

45:12 Speaker 1 Yes.

45:13 Speaker 2 Mm.

45:13 Speaker 1 And here it's like, "Oh, here's a person. Okay. Sedarable. Farbreng about." Like, your... What's going on inside we farbreng about, and that's why we have shluchim, and that's why we have an ovir. And-

45:25 Speaker 2 And you also have to build trust for that

45:26 Speaker 1 ... yeah, but, but that ha... I never became personally close with Rabbi Cohen or any hanhala there.

45:31 Speaker 2 Right.

45:32 Speaker 1 I got connected with some shluchim there, but mainly what happened was I started like, "Okay, so now I'm cut off from all my old associations, and now I'm in a place which actually values values." I started learning, like, all in, learning, davening, and, like, I transformed in that year.

45:47 Speaker 2 What made you choose Australia? It was just a whim?

45:49 Speaker 1 No. It was because of that, that promise of that.

45:53 Speaker 2 You said, "Let me give it one last go."

45:54 Speaker 1 The promise of that distance and start over and the-

45:58 Speaker 2 But why? Like, why?

45:59 Speaker 1 'Cause I want... Again, I wanted-

46:01 Speaker 2 Ah, you wanted

46:01 Speaker 1 ... the real thing. I, I, I know a lot of people might say that, and maybe they mean it, I don't know, but I wanted the real thing and I was looking for it.

46:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:10 Speaker 1 I was really looking for it. I wasn't looking for anything else. I had friends getting into business and scamming, and I... Like-

46:17 Speaker 2 So what year was this?

46:18 Speaker 1 This was '95.

46:19 Speaker 2 So right after the Gulatalent.

46:20 Speaker 1 This was '95. Yeah.

46:22 Speaker 2 So in general, there wa- it, it was... there was a break in many ways. The whole Lubavitch was dealing with a break-

46:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:28 Speaker 2 ... from the past.

46:29 Speaker 1 In a, in many ways. That's why I say I'm sort of a case study of the-

46:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

46:31 Speaker 1 ... pre and the post.

46:33 Speaker 2 So you-

46:33 Speaker 1 But for me-

46:33 Speaker 2 ... you wanted to take a break from it as well.

46:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

46:36 Speaker 2 Just start over.

46:36 Speaker 1 But for me, it began after.

46:39 Speaker 2 Right.

46:39 Speaker 1 For me, it began after.

46:41 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, it kinda makes sense.

46:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

46:43 Speaker 2 You, you have to make a... There's a choice. There's a fork in the road.

46:46 Speaker 1 Yes. So I... For me, it was I had to own it.

46:49 Speaker 2 Right.

46:49 Speaker 1 And so I l- I, I say without, without having discussed this with Rabbi Cohen, but he is probably the single biggest influence in how I run this yeshiva here.

46:59 Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't think anybody would have ever guessed that.

47:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. I... The guys choose which classes they go to. Now, there it was pretty much like that, it was more like what level are you at-

47:09 Speaker 2 Right

47:09 Speaker 1 ... but it's not grades, it's not age.

47:11 Speaker 2 Right.

47:11 Speaker 1 And we don't bother guys about what they wear. And Seder is the most important thing, and being a mensch.

47:20 Speaker 2 All right. You said Seder is the most important thing?

47:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:22 Speaker 2 You said it wa- before you s-

47:24 Speaker 1 Seder? Seder, I told you, we'll, we'll throw guys out of bed, like...

47:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

47:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, Seder's important.

47:29 Speaker 2 Seder's important.

47:30 Speaker 1 Seder's very important. But what do you do if a guy doesn't? So that's, again, what's your attitude? Is this a person who has failed you and your system?

47:38 Speaker 2 I see.

47:39 Speaker 1 That's what-

47:39 Speaker 2 You say, you say Seder's the most important thing for the yeshiva.

47:41 Speaker 1 F-for the

47:41 Speaker 2 Bachur

47:42 Speaker 1 ... for the bachur.

47:42 Speaker 2 Each bachur.

47:43 Speaker 1 Having an ordered, organized-

47:44 Speaker 2 I see what you mean

47:45 Speaker 1 ... driven life.

47:46 Speaker 2 I see.

47:47 Speaker 1 A place, uh... You need a place w- to fill. You need space to fill. That's Seder. Seder creates that space.

47:53 Speaker 2 Right. If you're in bed sleeping-

47:55 Speaker 1 Nothing happens

47:55 Speaker 2 ... nothing happens

47:56 Speaker 1 ... nothing good.

47:56 Speaker 2 Nothing good. Right.

47:58 Speaker 1 So, like, we have values, and we push those values, and our guys walk out of here knowing, whether they're holding or they're not holding, what you do when someone disappoints you or fails you. So is that a betrayal or is that, "Okay, I have to work harder"-

48:12 Speaker 2 Mm

48:12 Speaker 1 ... or, like, "I'm not getting through"? So that's the difference of Chabad's attitude or...

48:16 Speaker 2 I see.

48:17 Speaker 1 It's... Do you get what I'm saying? Am I painting the picture?

48:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, but I think it's more n... Uh, it's, it's, it's more complex than, than-

48:24 Speaker 1 It's very complex

48:24 Speaker 2 ... it's more complex than, than, than it's usually presented. Because on one hand, the f- the earlier part of the conversation, you were saying that yeshiva, other yeshivas place too much of an emphasis on-

48:36 Speaker 1 Only

48:37 Speaker 2 ... right. Right. So that, that's, that's the key.

48:39 Speaker 1 I was responding to something you said.

48:40 Speaker 2 So, so that's the key here.

48:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

48:41 Speaker 2 I'm just... Uh, I think I understand it, but I just wanna make sure.

48:44 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

48:44 Speaker 2 At the beginning, you know, you, you were pushing back, so you're, y- you were talking about how yeshivas make too much of an emphasis on Seder and, you know, ev- everything working and, and, and everybody conforming to-

48:58 Speaker 1 That's the word

48:59 Speaker 2 ... right?

48:59 Speaker 1 Their Seder.

49:00 Speaker 2 Right. But, but then, but then now you're saying Seder is the most important thing. So the key is not whether or not Seder is important or not. The key is why is it important?

49:10 Speaker 1 Yes.

49:11 Speaker 2 Why is it important?

49:12 Speaker 1 Is it my Seder-

49:12 Speaker 2 Is it important-

49:12 Speaker 1 ... or your Seder?

49:13 Speaker 2 Is it important for the yeshiva to look like a yeshiva is supposed to look in our own imagination?

49:18 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

49:19 Speaker 2 Or is it important because you're not going to succeed as a human being, as an, as a, as a Yid if you're live a life of chaos?

49:27 Speaker 1 Correct. Now, that's a starting point. We also teach a higher idea of Seder, which is you have to accept that there's bigger than you and become part of something bigger, but that's more advanced.

49:37 Speaker 2 Right. But the, the key distinction is not pro-Seder or anti-Seder.

49:41 Speaker 1 No.

49:41 Speaker 2 The key distinction is not order versus chaos. The key distinction is, is, is there order so that we can sleep better at night, or is there order so that you can be a better person?

49:52 Speaker 1 So you have a reason to get up in the morning.

49:53 Speaker 2 Right.

49:54 Speaker 1 Yes.

49:54 Speaker 2 Right.

49:55 Speaker 1 That's the difference.

49:56 Speaker 2 Right.

49:57 Speaker 1 Now, if you go through every point of contention or where people are not being successful, and, and this is why w- we spoke earlier, this, this, this idea resonates better, or it's accepted more widely these days because reality, experience, numbers are proving out this point that if we don't make it theirs, if Yiddishkeit's not theirs, if Seder's not theirs, if Hasidus is not theirs, it's not. It's just not gonna be.

50:29 Speaker 2 Right.

50:29 Speaker 1 And you could make the case that, uh, there's numbers on this now. There's, there's somebody who actually is putting together numbers, like serious person. Uh-

50:36 Speaker 2 Like a sociological study?

50:38 Speaker 1 No, no, no. He's Lubavitcher.

50:39 Speaker 2 Of Lubavitch.

50:40 Speaker 1 But he's studying yeshivas. He knows how many bochurim come in and how many make it through to the end.

50:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

50:46 Speaker 1 And the numbers are a third don't make it through. And-

50:48 Speaker 2 Really?

50:49 Speaker 1 Yes. This is studied for the last eight years.

50:51 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. I'm not-

50:52 Speaker 1 Not shocking.

50:53 Speaker 2 Yeah. No.

50:53 Speaker 1 Not shocking, but-

50:53 Speaker 2 No

50:54 Speaker 1 ... but sad. But sad.

50:55 Speaker 2 No. Yeah, I mean... Yeah.

50:57 Speaker 1 And then-

50:57 Speaker 2 Also, also kind of expected

50:58 Speaker 1 And of the two-thirds that-

50:59 Speaker 2 Expected given what I-

51:01 Speaker 1 Of the two-thirds that are making it through, you talk to anybody in any yeshiva-

51:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. Surviving sure-

51:06 Speaker 1 Not even half of those are really in.

51:09 Speaker 2 Right. They're surviving.

51:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. So what do we lo... So we're losing two-thirds either b- in heart or in actuality.

51:16 Speaker 2 Right.

51:16 Speaker 1 And we're gonna call that successful because we, Lubavitch is big and we have a lot of numbers, so we can still fill yeshivas. So I, that's-

51:22 Speaker 2 I, I, I hate when f- I hate when people use the, "Oh, we're, we're thriving 'cause yeshivas are..." It's like, it's like, what are you... This is by a lot... Like, if there's no war and there's no catastrophe, which thank God there isn't, and you let people procreate, the community's gonna grow.

51:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:34 Speaker 2 Like I, I don't understand this argument.

51:36 Speaker 1 It's like the opposite of a war of attrition. It's like-

51:38 Speaker 2 Yeah. I don't under-

51:38 Speaker 1 We won by numbers.

51:39 Speaker 2 I don't understand this argument at all. Like, there's more yeshivas and there's more people. Yeah, what do you think was gonna happen?

51:44 Speaker 1 Right. So this is what I stand on my soapbox and speak about.

51:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

51:48 Speaker 1 And this is why people might like it or hate it, but this is what I'll keep talking about until I get through.

51:53 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

51:55 Speaker 1 That we're missing, we're losing people, and even if we're keeping their numbers, we're not keeping their souls. They're not walking through inspired, and it's not their Yiddishkeit. And then watch, watch what happens three years after yeshiva, sometimes three months after yeshiva.

52:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, there's, there's-

52:10 Speaker 1 What happens when they leave yeshiva for summer in the two months in between yeshiva and yeshiva? Watch, watch what happens. So then what are we doing wrong? We need to figure out what we're doing wrong. Stop blaming society and smartphones and... Like, yeah, those things are all challenges we have to figure out and deal with.

52:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, the smartphone thing is... I don't know. Uh, it's a c- to me, it seems like a, like a, like massive cope. Like, uh, like the boy... Like the, like the youngsters like to say, it's, it's, it's cope. Like, uh, the reason why everything's bad is 'cause of smartphone and not because of choices that you're making and, you know, um, like you were talking earlier-

52:46 Speaker 1 So do you know what our rule about smartphones is?

52:48 Speaker 2 I know.

52:48 Speaker 1 The guys can have them, but we have... They have to give them in, and they get them once a week, sometimes more if they have a reason.

52:53 Speaker 2 Right.

52:54 Speaker 1 For a couple hours. Like, that's it. Like, no phones. We want-

52:57 Speaker 2 Right

52:58 Speaker 1 ... be present, be in life, live. Run around, play sports, build, fix. Like, we don't only learn all day. You have other options, but you have to live.

53:07 Speaker 2 Right. Which would be a good thing for all of us adults also-

53:11 Speaker 1 Yes

53:11 Speaker 2 ... re- regarding our smartphones. Um, no, I mean, there's, there's so many th... There's so many things I, I, you know, I, I... There's so many ways to frame what you're talking about, but I just wanted to point out one thing that I thought about while you were talking about making yeshiva yours. Uh, uh, meaning not, not yours as in Chabad-

53:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

53:28 Speaker 2 ... but making yeshiva theirs. Let's talk about the bochurim. Ma- making it theirs, making Yiddishkeit theirs. And always this, like, critique of, like, you know, well, Ten Chatzos is all about Seder and all about, you know, like, standards and so on. The... When you think about it, the old Ten Chatzos, bochur were begging to come in.

53:47 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

53:48 Speaker 2 They were there 'cause they wanted to be there.

53:49 Speaker 1 Yes.

53:50 Speaker 2 Right? The m- most of them were turned away, actually.

53:53 Speaker 1 Yes.

53:53 Speaker 2 So the ones that were there were there because they wanted to be there. So in a way, things were reversed because the rebbe eventually said yeshivas have to accept everyone, and we wanna include even bochurim who are, you know, quote-unquote, "struggling." I don't know if you use that term. So yeshivas did become more, like, open to, to, to, to the klal, and therefore it became, like, a norm. But the, but the pro- the problem with that can become where because it's a norm, it's not because they wanna be there, it's because they have to-

54:25 Speaker 1 It's default

54:25 Speaker 2 ... they have to be there.

54:26 Speaker 1 Now it's default.

54:26 Speaker 2 And that, you know, you, you have to be there, right? But the whole premise, like you're talking about Kabbalah soil. Kabbalah soil doesn't work. The, the Kabbalah soil is not about owning an animal, right? Where you, where you own someone and, and you, you d- like a dog and you have them on a leash. Kabbalah soil is all about... It's not even about being sold as a slave, even if we use that somewhat of a, of an analogy. It's more someone who gives himself over to an other.

54:52 Speaker 1 Yes.

54:53 Speaker 2 Right? And, and, and, and, and, and, and accepts upon himself the ownership of somebody else for... And understandably has to be very, very high reasons and big reasons to give up your own identity in that way, right?

55:09 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

55:09 Speaker 2 To, to become an eved to somebody else willingly, there has to be a crazy reason for that. And we just take it as, like, for granted. Of course you have Kabbalah soil, right? Like, as an adult already where I'm not in yeshiva, I, I had a more easy time in yeshiva, to be honest. Although some of the things that you speak about I can relate to. You know, you could be a good bochur learning, doing great, acing tests, everything. Then you go tell the rosh yeshiva you wanna learn a different hemsha. Oh my God. It's like, "I don't wanna sit here. You, you, you've been sitting on the same three pages for a month. I, I don't wanna... I, I got other things to do. I wanna learn some chumash." I don't know. Maybe 'cause I'm full of myself. But, like, you, you got another... Like, they, they can't tolerate any kind of-

55:55 Speaker 1 Personality

55:55 Speaker 2 ... uh, personality.

55:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

55:57 Speaker 2 Right? But, but, you know, they, they, like- This, this, this, this thing that yeshi- yeshivas, m- making, making yeshivas, making yeshivas yours and making a, making, making Kabbalah soil yours is, is such an intense idea, such an intense idea. And we, and we take-- we just treat it as if it's, as if it's, as if it's totally expected.

56:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. A button you push.

56:30 Speaker 2 No, but not even a button you push. Like, this is just normal. This is just, this is just, this is just to be expected of a, of a, of a young man, of a young man who's, who, who m- maybe doesn't wanna be here, has never been explained in a good way why, why he should be here, has never bought into it, and then we just tell them, "Kabbalah soil, this is how it is." And if we say it enough times, then it's gonna get through.

56:57 Speaker 1 It's inner force.

56:58 Speaker 2 Yeah. But, you know, I, I'm saying like-

57:00 Speaker 1 But I wanna speak to your point if I, if I can interrupt.

57:02 Speaker 2 Sure. Of course.

57:02 Speaker 1 So, like, the point you made about in the original Tammuz, people came in, Bacharim came in wanting, banging the doors down to get in, and the goal of Hanhalah was to take them to the next level.

57:14 Speaker 2 Right.

57:15 Speaker 1 These days, everybody should come, and our goal is to get them in, heart and soul.

57:22 Speaker 2 Right.

57:22 Speaker 1 Make in. That's the generational difference, but you need to acknowledge that difference. We can't prete- we can't pretend it's not that way. So we... Our job has shifted, but we're still... It's the same Ner Israel, the same point. Tammuz is to create lamplighters.

57:38 Speaker 2 Right.

57:38 Speaker 1 People who bring light to the world. It used to be people wanted to do that, and they're like, "Show me. Teach me." Nowadays, most people come in and they're like, "What are you talking about, light up the world? Lamp? Like, I don't even know who I am, what I'm doing in this world. Like, what do you want from my life? Let me go make money. Let me sleep. Let me, let me have fun. Let me party."

57:57 Speaker 2 Right.

57:58 Speaker 1 Even, or, "Let me just learn and the eight design, finish, get through it, survive it." Our job is to do the same exact thing. It's to inspire them to become light, light torchbearers in the world, but first, we have to get them to buy into this whole thing. That's the difference. It's the same objective, but we're starting with a different population. We're starting with a different demographic.

58:23 Speaker 2 Right.

58:23 Speaker 1 That's just the reality today, so we have to adjust to that reality-

58:28 Speaker 2 Right

58:28 Speaker 1 ... and speak a different language. And I have to say, yeshivas have been adjusting.

58:34 Speaker 2 Mm.

58:35 Speaker 1 Just not enough. Just not compre... not comprehensive enough and not fully enough. Not quick enough for my taste. Uh, I'm an impatient person. I know, but people are being lost in the process, but they're doing it. I know this firsthand in the visual stories and relationships, and I know this from numbers.

58:54 Speaker 2 Right.

58:55 Speaker 1 So I, I, I give a lot of credit, but it has to shift away from, "I'm a good teacher of," or, "I have an ability to teach guys a certain direction in Limud." It has to shift to like, "I have to win people over to everything, and I have to make them want this and want this with a certain sense of urgency, frustration."

59:17 Speaker 2 Right.

59:17 Speaker 1 So we spoke in the beginning off record about frustration. Yeah, that is the key. If we can't convey a sense of urgency, a sense of there's something missing, a sense of my life needs more, then we haven't really conveyed anything.

59:33 Speaker 2 Right.

59:33 Speaker 1 All we've done is we've taught traditions. What does that sound like?

59:37 Speaker 2 Secular Judaism.

59:39 Speaker 1 That's, that's American Judaism.

59:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

59:41 Speaker 1 We've taught traditions. Very, I mean, very nice. It's better than not teaching traditions. We're not trying to teach con... traditions. We're not trying to teach there is such a concept. We're trying to teach you are this or you want this, and you're gonna have to go get it.

59:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

59:56 Speaker 1 Entrepreneurial Judaism. The, the, the Rebbe's answer to all this is precede it, the, the disease, shlichus. Shlichus is not just go be a shliach, and this is another big mistake. Yeshivas try to pump out shlichim. No. You try to pump out shlichus mentality. What's shlichus mentality? Outgoing, confident, I don't wanna say aggressive, but, like, ambitious. I wanna bring something, and it's mine, and I wanna share it with you, as opposed to, like-

1:00:30 Speaker 2 Passive

1:00:30 Speaker 1 ... passive.

1:00:31 Speaker 2 Surviving.

1:00:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. That, that today, to, to get this transition-

1:00:35 Speaker 2 No, it's very lame.

1:00:36 Speaker 1 The transition from not interested to it's mine requires shlichus mentality.

1:00:44 Speaker 2 Mm. Ownership.

1:00:45 Speaker 1 Ownership.

1:00:46 Speaker 2 Ownership.

1:00:47 Speaker 1 And then, then you'll take your tefillin with you when you go to the store. That's so you're a shliach. You're not a shliach. What's the difference?

1:00:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:00:52 Speaker 1 It's yours, and you mean it so much, it's so real to you, and you have a passion for it, you wouldn't withhold it from your brother, from your cousin, from your... the Jew you meet on the street.

1:01:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean-

1:01:03 Speaker 1 It's natural, organic shlichus.

1:01:07 Speaker 2 This year marks seventy-five years since Yud Shvat and the first Basse LeGani. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlah Media, inspired by Basse LeGani, the first Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basse LeGani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by String Quartet to bring the beauty of Basse LeGani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the film's original arrangements for String Quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the String Quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show. So much of this also this, I think this, this, this mistaken romantic- romantization of old Tenchiet women where because there were these massive figures and special figures-

1:02:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:02:28 Speaker 2 ... like the Oydem of Lubavitch and these, these, these, these stories and, I, I mean, I, I was inspired by them as a, as a, I, I still am.

1:02:35 Speaker 1 As we should be.

1:02:35 Speaker 2 I still am.

1:02:36 Speaker 1 As we should. Yeah.

1:02:37 Speaker 2 I still am. But, but, like, we therefore paint a picture that this is how teenagers were back then. And it's like, no, most of them were becoming communists, actually. Right? Like, most of them were way more antagonistic to it.

1:02:51 Speaker 1 They had to be won over.

1:02:52 Speaker 2 Right. No, there were a few that were, you know, either won over or were the, you know, very unique figures.

1:02:57 Speaker 1 My great-grandfather was one of these figures. He was a, a Hasid named Shillem, Rav Shillem Caratan.

1:03:03 Speaker 2 No kidding.

1:03:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:04 Speaker 2 The famous Shillem?

1:03:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, the famous Shillem.

1:03:05 Speaker 2 The, the-

1:03:05 Speaker 1 And how did he come to-

1:03:06 Speaker 2 He was Mashpia in, in, in, in Lubavitch, right?

1:03:08 Speaker 1 Yes, but how did he come into Lubavitch?

1:03:10 Speaker 2 How did he come to Lubavitch?

1:03:11 Speaker 1 From gymnasium. From the high school.

1:03:14 Speaker 2 Oh, from gymnasium?

1:03:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:16 Speaker 1 And he came into Lubavitch with the shorts on and the uniform of the school and a knapsack, and he was rejected.

1:03:22 Speaker 2 He came straight to the Yeshivah Lubavitch from a gymnasium?

1:03:25 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:03:26 Speaker 2 What brought him there?

1:03:26 Speaker 1 His family had Lubavitch roots, but his parents had passed away. He was living with a sister who was more on the modern side of-

1:03:32 Speaker 2 And you're saying that Lubavitchers back then, some of them were modern? Okay.

1:03:37 Speaker 1 There's no stories. You're not allowed so to mention these stories, but the stories of Lubavitcher who's hugging his girlfriend will dive him in the street.

1:03:45 Speaker 2 Well, I don't, I don't know the story.

1:03:46 Speaker 1 Okay. Fine, because they don't tell these stories.

1:03:47 Speaker 2 No, but I... No, I, I-

1:03:48 Speaker 1 This is a, this is a name. This is a Hasid with a name.

1:03:51 Speaker 2 Because I don't... Wait, a, a Sh- a Hasid in, in Russia?

1:03:53 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like a well-known Hasid.

1:03:55 Speaker 2 After he became a Hasid or be- before he became a Hasid?

1:03:57 Speaker 1 He was becoming a Hasid. He was becoming.

1:04:00 Speaker 2 He was on his own journey, and she was diving him in on the street.

1:04:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:05 Speaker 2 Hugging his girlfriend.

1:04:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, she was his cover to, to be... To, because to hug your girlfriend was allowed. To dive in Mincha was not allowed. So...

1:04:13 Speaker 2 Oh, during the communist?

1:04:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:04:15 Speaker 2 Uh, okay.

1:04:16 Speaker 1 I'm not talking about the author of his time, so whatever. But, but that's not where we're at.

1:04:19 Speaker 2 No, but it's more... No, it's more that-

1:04:20 Speaker 1 But it was my point-

1:04:20 Speaker 2 ... the story, Shillem was a grandson of a Lubavitcher's, a family that had relaxed a little bit. Like this is, this is-

1:04:28 Speaker 1 Some. Some. Depends which sister.

1:04:30 Speaker 2 Yeah, but this is history.

1:04:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:04:31 Speaker 2 The ebb and flow of, of-

1:04:32 Speaker 1 Right

1:04:32 Speaker 2 ... people going in and out, and...

1:04:34 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.

1:04:35 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:04:35 Speaker 1 But what, but what won him over, he, he cried his way in to, to be accepted to then put him. The Rebbetzin overheard him crying.

1:04:43 Speaker 2 But why did he want it?

1:04:44 Speaker 1 He wanted the truth.

1:04:46 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:04:47 Speaker 1 And then you saw it in the way he lives.

1:04:48 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:49 Speaker 1 He wanted the truth. He just wanted to serve God. He just wanted to know what's real.

1:04:54 Speaker 2 Right. Shillem was a famous Choizer, right?

1:04:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:04:56 Speaker 2 He would, he would, he would-

1:04:58 Speaker 1 A Choizer Mashpia, yeah.

1:04:59 Speaker 2 He would take a con- He... Yeah. I, I heard a great story from, I think, I think Moshe Farkash or Moshe Farkash Mashpia in Argentina. I think it was from him. I wish I had a be- better memory for these things. But, um, that some reason this story brought out Shillem to me more, that the Rosh Hashana after he passed away, his wife was at home and very, very depressed. And they thought it was because, you know, she lost her husband. And of course, that was part of it, but she said that when he was here, you felt Rosh Hashana.

1:05:37 Speaker 1 Someone just told me a similar story about him. Like, she says, "Hus-" these... The, the man of the house walked in, her relative, and wished his wife a Shanah Tovah. She's like, "What? My husband, my husband, he came home, he was so caught up in the Mimarim and in Yom Terum and in Rosh Hashana, nothing existed." He's like, "I don't feel like it's Rosh Hashana anymore."

1:06:01 Speaker 2 So maybe it was this... Maybe-

1:06:02 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:06:02 Speaker 2 ... maybe it's the same story.

1:06:03 Speaker 1 So Nahum Kaplan told me this story two weeks ago.

1:06:05 Speaker 2 Okay. So the story, the story has truth-

1:06:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:06:06 Speaker 2 ... if we're hearing it from two sides.

1:06:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:09 Speaker 2 You know, that, that it... To somehow the... 'Cause that, that shows on, on, on, on, under, under... In a way, that shows on the, on, on, on the, on the realness of a person.

1:06:19 Speaker 1 Yes. And I, my point of bringing him up was not his credentials.

1:06:23 Speaker 2 I understand.

1:06:23 Speaker 1 It was about how did he come in.

1:06:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:25 Speaker 1 How did he come in?

1:06:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:27 Speaker 1 Like, and so, like, let's bring people in, and what wins them over? Hasidim, so teach it.

1:06:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean-

1:06:33 Speaker 1 Instead of memorize it, instead of quotas, instead of... I'm not saying get rid of, l- but let's focus on what matters, and let's pr- let's... First we have to know what matters ourselves.

1:06:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:44 Speaker 1 Focus internally, and then let's present that.

1:06:46 Speaker 2 So I, so I, I... Yeah, the, the reason, the reason I brought up, the reason I brought up the, the difference between then and now is that I... You, you mentioned how people today are just kinda find themselves in Yeshivah and you have to bring them in. I think in many ways, people see as today we're starting from a weaker place. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think a lot of g- a lot of guys are, are open to it, but you have to c- you still have to convince them. You're not fighting the same antagonism necessarily as you were or the same headwind as a hundred years ago.

1:07:17 Speaker 1 I guess I would state it a little differently 'cause I think about this a lot. It's just like everything the Rebbe says about w- you know, as Galut goes on, experience tells us it's worse. Torah tells us it's about to get... It's, it's great. It's like it's both a Yeridah and Aliyah at the same time. With people, the way that it looks is like this. People are just much more straight to the point.

1:07:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:07:36 Speaker 1 So they're not going through the whole philosophy. They're not caught up on it. They're not, they're not being won over. They wanna know Taakles. Why isn't this working? Or what's... What works about this? You know, there's a... It's, it's most... It's like Atzmus versus Pnimius or Chitanus.

1:07:49 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:07:50 Speaker 1 It's like people, we're living Atzmus lives. And I'm not saying each of us individually. I'm saying we're living in a generation where what matters is if this is real, this is gonna work. And people today, they're like, "Yeah, I'll, I'll do everything," but is this working?

1:08:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:07 Speaker 1 And like, "Show me. Show me how this works. Speak to me." So it's not like convince me out of anything, but convince me in.

1:08:16 Speaker 2 Right. And, and to-

1:08:17 Speaker 1 Light me up

1:08:17 Speaker 2 ... right. And to put that into words that are less Hebrew.

1:08:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:08:23 Speaker 2 Um, no, 'cause Mendel Zirkind spoke about atsmus at, at length.

1:08:26 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay

1:08:27 Speaker 2 And I-i-it makes a lot of sense to me, but it's not just 'cause it could sound like, oh, we're living in a different spiritual era of atsmus, and that sounds kind of, you know, in the sky.

1:08:37 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:08:37 Speaker 2 I, I think, I, I think another way of framing it to, to that point is that today people have choices, right? So when you have choices, then it... Like, the reason I wanna choose this is because it works. I, I have options. I don't have to do this.

1:08:53 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:08:54 Speaker 2 Right? So you can't-

1:08:55 Speaker 1 Including from good options?

1:08:57 Speaker 2 Right. Or-

1:08:58 Speaker 1 That don't take much out of me?

1:09:00 Speaker 2 Or whatever. I could... There's so many, like-

1:09:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:09:02 Speaker 2 ... like statistically, I was talking to somebody, like, you know, every- But he's like, "Why are, why are people not staying frum?" And I'm like, "You have, you have to understand, being frum is one option out of a thousand." It's... Like, people see it as a binary. It's not a binary. Like, "Ki atom yimat mikol ha'am," like, your way is this sl- this tiny sliver of reality, and kids grow up in a world where they see a million options now.

1:09:25 Speaker 1 And today they see.

1:09:26 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, uh, you, and you could argue, and I could agree with you that a lot of those options are, are not really options, they're fake. But, but you have... Even if you really believe that, it took you, it took you s- it took you a while to get there, and you're expecting somebody, you know, a kid to, to, to, to be there who-

1:09:42 Speaker 1 Because you are.

1:09:43 Speaker 2 Yeah. 'Cause you think you are. Right? Or maybe 'cause you are. But it took... The same way it took you time, it'll take them time. And, and, and, you know, people have options. And if you have options, if a kid has options, and you tell him, "You do this because it's the right thing to do," it's not gonna work. It's not gonna stick. I-i-like, the reason I'm gonna do it is because it works, right? Not because-

1:10:05 Speaker 1 And w-and, and just to clarify for the, for the listeners, w-work, when you say works, what I mean-

1:10:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:10:10 Speaker 1 ... is, like, really works inside, outside. It works in that-

1:10:15 Speaker 2 It all works

1:10:15 Speaker 1 ... yes. It-it's, it's, it's really something you can live with and live by. I don't just mean works as in it makes me money, or works as in it's popular. When I say works, I mean it's like this is a way to live. This is authentic. This is genuine. This is something I admire. This is something I see... When I see it in other people, I'm like, "Yes, sign me up for that. How do I get there?" That's what I mean by works. Not something that I can do and I can successfully maneuver, or I can excel at and perfect and, and r-rise in the ranks. That's not something that works. That's something I can master. That's something that I can put in my pocket. That's something that I can make a living off of. Uh, that's not satisfying. That's not what people are looking for today. In a sense, as shallow as people are, people are more real today in the sense that they, they don't wa- If it's not, if you're not offering the real deal, you're not offering me anything.

1:11:10 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. Sha-sha-shallow, shallow and deep is also in the eyes of the beholder.

1:11:16 Speaker 1 True.

1:11:16 Speaker 2 You know, I mean, there, there's ways of being cynical either way.

1:11:19 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:11:20 Speaker 2 You know, a lot of times people, you know, "You're a shallow guy." Yeah, but the deep guy is, is, is off in the deep end, you know, basically in his fantasy land.

1:11:28 Speaker 1 Caught, caught up in himself.

1:11:29 Speaker 2 Caught up in his fantasy land. You know, very good that you can philosophize about everything, but-

1:11:32 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:11:32 Speaker 2 ... usually the people to be worried about are the people who make everything complicated and overly deep, you know?

1:11:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:11:39 Speaker 2 Like, everything has to be... It's, it's not that, you know, uh, what are you hiding exactly? What are, what are you, what are you avoiding with all this-

1:11:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. Avoiding movements.

1:11:47 Speaker 2 Yeah. What are you-

1:11:48 Speaker 1 Crisis by analysis.

1:11:49 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. You know, what, what, what, what, what strikes me from your story, you know, tell me if I'm right or wrong. I, we, we didn't have a chance to go through your whole, your whole story. Maybe we'll get to it. What strikes to me is that, is that, first of all, of course, you're, you're drawing from your own personal experience, right? Um, but it seems to me also that if you... It doesn't sound like at some point you said, "You know what? I, I found the truth, and now I'm gonna find my space in Hanukkah." You know, "I'm gonna go-"

1:12:19 Speaker 1 No.

1:12:20 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

1:12:21 Speaker 1 No.

1:12:21 Speaker 2 Okay. That... So it was a good guess.

1:12:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.