Ep. 87 // "99 Years of Lubavitch" w/ Mrs. Hadassah Carlebach

00:00 Speaker 1 When they were in our house, uh, s- uh, interrogating my father, my, my brother was a young child in a crib. He was two, three years old, and he was sitting-- a-and he was shaking his crib and dance-- and dancing and singing all the time, the same th- same thing over and over and over again. And they want to know, what is he singing? My father wasn't going to tell him. He was singing

00:37 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-six. My name is Benjie Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Alrighty, we are here in Crown Heights with Mrs. Kalbach, Mrs. Hadassah Kalbach. Thank you very much for agreeing to do the podcast. Thank you to your grandchildren who have helped me arrange this podcast. I look forward very much to having this conversation with you. To all those listening to the podcast who liked-- who like HFL, please like and subscribe on the various platforms.

01:17 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

01:18 Speaker 2 And to, and to those who really like the podcast-

01:20 Speaker 1 Yeah

01:20 Speaker 2 ... please, please support the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate.

01:26 Speaker 1 Yes.

01:26 Speaker 2 Mrs. Kalbach, let us begin from the beginning of your story.

01:30 Speaker 1 Okay. Where would you like me to start?

01:34 Speaker 2 I'd like you to start-

01:35 Speaker 1 Before I was born. I w-

01:39 Speaker 2 That's for Porter, maybe.

01:40 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

01:40 Speaker 2 But, uh, let's start, let's start from your memories back in Russia.

01:45 Speaker 1 From my memories.

01:45 Speaker 2 I mean, maybe de- maybe describe first your family, who your parents were, where they fit into the history of Lubavitch in general.

01:54 Speaker 1 Well, well, my father is a, uh, a second cousin of the Friediker Rebbe.

02:02 Speaker 2 What was his name?

02:05 Speaker 1 Schneur Zalman Schneerson. And, um, he was born in, uh, Russia. I think it's Gomel. And, uh, and, and, and, uh, and they, and they lived, uh, uh, when they were... When they were-- when they got married, they lived in Poltava for a while. That's where the yeshiva was, the Lubavitch yeshiva at that time. And it would, would've been about in nineteen twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three, around that time. And, um, I think even later. I think they got married probably later because I was born in nineteen twenty-seven, and they were married at that time six-- they were married already six years. They had no children the first six years. So, so, okay, so they must have got married in nineteen twenty-three. Um, it was a very hard time. That time, there were just had a lot of-- quite a lot of pogroms in Ukraine. My father was, um, uh, when he left the yeshiva, he was working for the Friediker Rebbe. And he had all kind, different positions in the, in those days. But mostly, he was into communication between Hasidim and transferring money from... that came in illegally. Well, some of the... When it was needed because that was the time of the co-communists where the yeshivas went underground. The, uh, uh, all the, all the yeshivas were, were closed, and the, the, the mc- the makbos were destroyed, were closed. And so, uh, uh, it was a very dangerous time for, for Frum again because the religion was not permitted. They, they had that famous

04:43 Speaker 1 saying that the re-religion is the opium for the masses. And, um, and unfortunately, a lot of our young people, even from Frum house, joined the ranks of the communists. And, and then there was even a special section in the government that took... of, of Jewish people, Jewish section to persecute Frum Jews called the Yevsektsia. And, and, and, uh, if they would see a couple of Yiden standing on the street and talk, speaking, that was already a plot against the government. You know, it, it was so dangerous to meet. And so they had small yeshivas that w-- in every city, the Friediker Rebbe insisted that it should continue, there should be learning. And so there was a lot of mesira shnafish from our Hasidim.

05:56 Speaker 2 Do you remember that time? Do you remember those years in Russia at all as a young girl?

06:01 Speaker 1 I remember that when I was told, but, uh That the story can, and, and I'll come to it in a second, what I remember. And so, like, my father was, uh, was, um, the person that this, that was, uh, distributed the funds. They had to pay the teachers, distributed funds. So he traveled from place to place, and, and it was very dangerous. So a lot of times, he took me along-

06:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

06:40 Speaker 1 ... so that it should look that he's going on vacation with a kid.

06:46 Speaker 2 Right.

06:47 Speaker 1 And since it sh- wouldn't be so sus- suspicious that he's traveling.

06:53 Speaker 2 Right.

06:54 Speaker 1 So I remember being a l- a lot on trains on th-- in those days. That's where I was coming to.

07:05 Speaker 2 Do you remember fear at all? Do you remember it being a scary time?

07:10 Speaker 1 I, I did, I did know. I, I did know. I didn't understand at all yet that it was scary. Uh, but, uh, there, there was at, at one, one time, it was a little, a little, a little, uh, later. That was already when the Frederika River left for Riga. Uh, it must have been a, uh... It, it was in a, in a city called Malakhovka. And I remember that, uh, one day my father said to me that, "Tonight we're gonna sleep on the porch." Uh, but I said to him, "But it, but it's cold. It's winter. What do you mean we're gonna sleep on the porch?" And know, he says, "You know, on the table, we're gonna put blankets. We're gonna look at the stars. It's gonna be a lot, a lot of fun." And so we slept, but I, we realized later that he had blocked the door, so that in case an inspection comes to see, to look for, uh, we always, uh, uh, they were always sort of hiding, going from place to place, uh, hi- uh, th- that they would have a chance to use the back door and escaped while, while he's, uh, while he's, the front door is blocked, yeah.

08:38 Speaker 2 So you slept outside in the cold to block the front door?

08:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:43 Speaker 2 Huh.

08:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

08:44 Speaker 2 And you slept outside with him also?

08:46 Speaker 1 Huh?

08:46 Speaker 2 You slept outside with him?

08:47 Speaker 1 Oh, I, I had a lot of fun.

08:49 Speaker 2 You had a lot of fun?

08:50 Speaker 1 I, I had a lot of fun. I was very, very close with my father, so, because I was born after, after the mar-- like I said, six, after they were married six years. My brother was bo- born only five years after me, so during those five years, we developed, we bonded very much, my father and myself. He treated me a, almost like, like a boy.

09:17 Speaker 2 Almost like a boy.

09:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, I, I, I didn't, uh, I, I could not play with the dolls. Dolls, first of all, a doll was a pestle, and if somebody gave me a doll, the n- the nose was cut off immediately. So I didn't wanna look at the doll anymore, and I begged people, "Please, no dolls." But he gave me an Erector Set. It's like for building pulleys, bolts and pulleys, uh, screws, and he would help me construct things.

09:51 Speaker 2 Uh.

09:51 Speaker 1 A- and n- a- and the next thing, I got a, a, a big, an, a huge encyclopedia. I was only five years old, and I got a hundred and twenty volumes of, of en- encyclopedia. I, it was, it, that's a g- where, where I learned Russian to read from that.

10:11 Speaker 2 You learned Russian from... Where did you go to school?

10:14 Speaker 1 It didn't, uh, uh, it was no question of a school, al- although we were su- supposed to go to, uh, he send me to school, but he had, he worked it out. She was, uh, the wife of a, some high official, uh, government official, and she'd come to the house. The only problem is that I was a, I was born, I was a lefty. I was born a lefty, and she d- she did not allow it. In those days, that was a, uh, uh, that was a, a gum, you know, uh-

10:55 Speaker 2 In the school.

10:56 Speaker 1 Huh?

10:57 Speaker 2 In the school.

10:58 Speaker 1 No, not at home. She'd come at home.

11:00 Speaker 2 Ah, ah.

11:01 Speaker 1 She'd come at home to teach me.

11:02 Speaker 2 Right.

11:03 Speaker 1 But, but I couldn't learn with her because she would hold my left hand down.

11:08 Speaker 2 Right.

11:08 Speaker 1 And didn't, and somehow she, my, she tied my brains that way. Not only my arm, but my brains. On the other hand, I had a, I had a Melamed, and, uh, he was v- very kind and very understanding, and I learned very well with him. And so, um, uh, he, one day he realized that when it come to Parashat HaAzinu and, and, and, and the measurements of the table, I didn't know what he was talking about. He had to explain to me, and then, uh, and then he showed me how to do additions and subtraction and multiplication I, I, I don't remember the division, but all that was in one day, and I learned, and l- and I learned it with him, but I couldn't learn with her, with her.

12:16 Speaker 2 How about that? Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening ten years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Boniolum, Torah Mesora, and Atzalathan, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. What was it like, what, what was it, what was it like growing up as a cousin of the Friediker Rebbe? Was that, did that make a difference in the way that people saw you? Did they make the government more sc-- more suspicious of you?

13:25 Speaker 1 My, oh, my, my, that's the reason we had to leave Russia because of the name of, uh, y- Just hav-having the same name as the Friediker Rebbe because he, when he, when he was left, he was... That's right after that he was released, where he was almost condemned to, to the, uh, to the... And, and he was released-

13:55 Speaker 2 Right

13:55 Speaker 1 ... and he left, and my father re-re-- the Chidim remained and they carried on. But there is a, th-th-there's amongst Chidim, there's no yiches, it's just a Rebbe. The, the, the is, is, is just the opposite. They kinda expect more from them, whatever.

14:17 Speaker 2 Really?

14:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:18 Speaker 2 You, so-

14:19 Speaker 1 Yeah

14:19 Speaker 2 ... were there, were there many Schneersons at the time in Russia?

14:22 Speaker 1 Well, I remember, um, uh, Shmuel, what's his name? It was an uncle, um, of the Rebbe. I mean, that, that was, that was, uh, there. There was, uh, what is the name of Schneerson.

14:41 Speaker 2 How are you related to the Rebbe's family? How close are you? What's your relation to, to Reb Leivic?

14:48 Speaker 1 I, to the Rebbe now, to the Rebbe now, uh, it's, uh, uh, it's, uh, Levi Yitzchak, the Rebbe's father and my father were cousins.

15:04 Speaker 2 Cousins?

15:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:06 Speaker 2 They know each other?

15:07 Speaker 1 Hmm?

15:07 Speaker 2 They know each other?

15:09 Speaker 1 Oh, of course.

15:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

15:13 Speaker 1 Very well.

15:14 Speaker 2 Yeah.

15:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:20 Speaker 2 What-- Do, do you remember, do you remember the Friediker Rebbe? Did you ever have a chance to meet the Friediker Rebbe?

15:26 Speaker 1 Well, I met the Friediker, uh, Rebbe later when I was... Wh-what I remember, I-- he met me when I was born. I, I was born with his berakhah.

15:39 Speaker 2 Oh, 'cause your parents were waiting for a child.

15:41 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. And I was born just six months before he left to Russia. So I know they took me to say goodbye on you after .

15:55 Speaker 2 Uh, y-y-your parents went to say goodbye to the Friediker Rebbe?

15:58 Speaker 1 In Leningrad. They went Leningrad.

15:59 Speaker 2 Leningrad.

16:00 Speaker 1 They were... That year, they, they came to be in Leningrad because the Friediker Rebbe was in Leningrad.

16:07 Speaker 2 Right.

16:07 Speaker 1 But, um, the Friediker Rebbe was, uh, he was officially in Leningrad, but we had no permission to stay in Leningrad. You, y-you know, that, that was only the, the Yidden that were there for many years were grandfathered in, the sixteen thousand. N-nobody else had, had to stay in the pale.

16:30 Speaker 2 Right.

16:32 Speaker 1 So we were there illegally.

16:34 Speaker 2 Right.

16:35 Speaker 1 That caused a lot of problems because my mother had, when she had to deliver me, she-- they didn't accept her in a, in, in, in a hospital because she had, did not have a legal residence there.

16:51 Speaker 2 So what did she do?

16:53 Speaker 1 Sh-she, she finally, they, they bribed a doctor to do it, uh, but the doctor couldn't do it in his office because it's illegal, so he did it in, uh, in outside-

17:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

17:07 Speaker 1 ... in a, in some sort of a, I don't know, a stable, a garage or, or whatever.

17:15 Speaker 2 Wow.

17:16 Speaker 1 But he could not give me a birth certificate either because he did something illegally. So I was, I was not, I, I, I had, I had no papers for over a year.

17:28 Speaker 2 You did not exist for a year.

17:30 Speaker 1 And then... And I was born in winter outside in Yutzfat.

17:35 Speaker 2 Yutzfat?

17:35 Speaker 1 Yutzfat.

17:36 Speaker 2 Yutzfat is your birthday?

17:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:38 Speaker 2 Oh, wow. Wow.

17:39 Speaker 1 I was born outside. And a year later, when my uncle, my aunt was married to Yuda Ever.

17:49 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

17:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:50 Speaker 2 Your aunt, your, your father's sister?

17:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:53 Speaker 2 Okay.

17:54 Speaker 1 And they had just gotten married, and they lived in, they lived in Nevel, in Russia. So my father went there. I was a year old, and she just delivered a baby with a midwife Her son, Avramela, and, uh, they bribed the midwife to give, to give us a, a, a birth certificate for me that I was born there.

18:24 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

18:24 Speaker 1 So I legally, I am born a year later. Different date. The same month and different date a year later.

18:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

18:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:36 Speaker 2 Did you, did you ever switch the papers back?

18:38 Speaker 1 Eh, what?

18:39 Speaker 2 You ever switch the papers back, or you kept it that way?

18:42 Speaker 1 I kept it. I never bo-bothered to, uh, changing it. I lost... I didn't know you could change it. I, I was very naive, and I lost a year of Social Security, you know, because of that.

18:55 Speaker 2 But now you're a year younger.

18:56 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

18:56 Speaker 2 Now you're a year younger, so-

18:57 Speaker 1 I am a year younger on the pa- on the papers.

19:00 Speaker 2 It's better.

19:03 Speaker 1 Uh.

19:03 Speaker 2 Uh, do you have... Do you remember, do you remember, do you remember, um, Neville? Do you remember the people in Neville?

19:09 Speaker 1 I... No, I was a year there.

19:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

19:11 Speaker 1 After that, they left. They, they left. They continued their traveling until they settled in Malachowka for a while.

19:21 Speaker 2 Malachowka was also, like, near Tashkent, in that area, or-

19:25 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Malachowka was near Moscow.

19:28 Speaker 2 Near Moscow.

19:29 Speaker 1 A lot of Hasidim live, lived, lived there. It's a, a real, uh, Hasidic enclave.

19:37 Speaker 2 This is before the war, before World War II?

19:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, uh, there were-

19:44 Speaker 2 You must remember the war quite well.

19:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, but this time, this Malachowka was, uh, except that we, we were always, uh, under suspicion, but somehow it wasn't. We had a little bit of a respite there, and there were always for brangen in our house with Has- with Hasidim. They used to, uh... There was a hill, and I remember as a kid seeing the, uh, come... them-- they were coming down the hill and, uh, on, uh, on some ... and they already had a some-- a little bit of maska, so they were not w-walking down the hill. They were-

20:23 Speaker 2 Rolling

20:23 Speaker 1 ... doing a cool down the hill .

20:25 Speaker 2 Rolling down the hill.

20:26 Speaker 1 Down the hill to, to, into our house. It's, uh-

20:29 Speaker 2 Really? That-

20:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:31 Speaker 2 That, that's-

20:31 Speaker 1 That I remember a-as a kid very vive-vividly. And, uh, and, uh, and, and also, uh, Zalman Mateshe was also at that time in Malachowka. And then from there we m- we moved to Moscow, and there the interrogations also were very, very, very frequent. Uh, and they were, uh, they were-- he was apprehended but never really arre- my father was apprehended but not arrested, not overnight. But, uh, one episode that I remember when they were in our house, uh, swear-- interrogating my father, my, my brother was a young child in a, in a crib. He was two, three years old, and he was sitting, and, and he was shaking the crib and dance, and dancing and singing all the time the same ni- same nigun over and over and over again. And it bothered the p- the, uh, the, the GPU, because the, uh, people who inter-interrogated, and they want to know what is he singing. My father wasn't going to tell him he was singing you know?

22:01 Speaker 2 And, and he did this on his own?

22:02 Speaker 1 Huh?

22:03 Speaker 2 And your brother did this on his own?

22:04 Speaker 1 All the time, over and over again.

22:06 Speaker 2 Was that a nigun that the Hasidim used to sing all the time?

22:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, yeah. A lot.

22:10 Speaker 2 Huh.

22:11 Speaker 1 That I remember, and, uh, uh, Al Hasalah I remember very well. They were singing that time. I remember the Hakafes Neguna well from those days.

22:24 Speaker 2 What was the, what was the sense, if you remember, especially as you were getting older in Russia, what was the sense, what was the sense of, uh, like, did people believe they would ever get out? Did your father believe he would get out? Did you-- did everyone-- did people feel the communists would fall? What was the hope for the future? Was there a hope for the future?

22:43 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, the Freidiker promised that they're gonna fall one day. We didn't know when that day is gonna be. But, um, no. But, but I remember, uh, uh, many years later and n- all the time, I remember how, how warm the Hasidim were, how close they were to each other.

23:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

23:10 Speaker 1 How caring for each other, you know? It's, it's very, there was a very strong Ahavat Yisrael between, between Hasidim. They all had a serus nefesh, lived of, you know, sparingly, everybody, you know, but, uh, is... And there was no difference in, in status very much. We were, we were all in, in the same boat, same thing.

23:49 Speaker 2 Right. But as a girl, did you ever wonder, like, what's gonna... where is this all going to lead? Like, are we going to live here for... Are we gonna... Is this gonna be my life the rest of my life? What was, what was-

24:00 Speaker 1 I, I didn't... I wasn't philosophical- ... in those days. Later on in France and during, uh, during the Hitler, yes, but, um-

24:11 Speaker 2 When, when did you move to France?

24:13 Speaker 1 Well, we left Russia in 1935.

24:16 Speaker 2 '35? Before the war.

24:20 Speaker 1 Before the war.

24:21 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. So you were in Europe before the war, and then the war breaks out.

24:26 Speaker 1 Uh, no, the... before-- 1935, but it's way before the war. Couple of years before-

24:31 Speaker 2 Right

24:31 Speaker 1 ... four years before the war.

24:33 Speaker 2 Right.

24:33 Speaker 1 And, and, but, uh-

24:35 Speaker 2 How, how many Hasidim were able to leave then? Not so many, right?

24:37 Speaker 1 Very few. We, we were helped by the Joint because my father, because of the underground work that he was doing, he was connected with Dr. Rosen, who was, uh-

24:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

24:51 Speaker 1 ... a, a very close, uh, isn't it? He was a secular Jew, but very close to Ha- to the Freidiker Rebbe Chabad.

25:00 Speaker 2 Right.

25:00 Speaker 1 Helped a lot. So, um, he, he helped get... And the only place that we could leave Russia to is, like, is, uh, in a-- I think it was a, a promise that w- maybe we'll, we'll come back, but, but meanwhile we have to go to Kever Rovos in Eretz Yisrael, so we left for Eretz Yisrael.

25:27 Speaker 2 That was the thing that you told the government?

25:32 Speaker 1 I think we used the word Kever Rovos, that we go to Kever Rovos.

25:36 Speaker 2 That's what you told the government?

25:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:37 Speaker 2 After this-

25:38 Speaker 1 That means it's, uh, visiting graves. Yeah.

25:40 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Paying respects.

25:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, sure.

25:45 Speaker 2 But you never intended to come back, of course.

25:49 Speaker 1 No, not really. But, but in Eretz Yisrael, my father didn't find it very, very, um, uh, pl- uh, uh, interesting for him to stay. Uh, at that time there, the, the, uh... It was very, very socialistic. It was the kibbutz ar- area, you know? They were very socialistic. They were more-- They were communistic more than even... They called themselves socialist, but basically they acted like communists, and they-- And the w- the, the ironic things, it's, it's, it's unbelievable, is that they felt that Russia is great, that the Jews in Russia are having, are having a hard time. Somehow they... The private letters that came from Russia, they ignored, but only the publicity that emanated to, from Russia, that they believed that the Jews, it's the best place for them-

27:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

27:07 Speaker 1 To be a Russian. And to my father, this was very painful. Well, he still, uh, kept writing to, to, uh, to, uh, uh, politicians, I think the mayor from, uh, uh, Tel Aviv, his name Dizengoff, and, uh, and begged him to do something for the Jews in Russia, you know, uh, to help them and, and explain to them the situation, how many are, are about to, to be, uh, um, uh, to be, uh, condemned to death or, or condemned to exile to some Siberia or, or place. And so he left, uh, he left, uh, uh, is it, uh, Palestine, it was Palestine those days, uh, after sixteen days, and he went to France, and we joined him later, a year later.

28:22 Speaker 2 In France?

28:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

28:24 Speaker 2 You and your brother and your mother-

28:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:27 Speaker 2 Joined him in France. And this was, this was a few years before the Second World War.

28:31 Speaker 1 That was in thirty-six. We joined him in thirty-six.

28:35 Speaker 2 All right.

28:35 Speaker 1 It was three years before.

28:37 Speaker 2 Uh, do you remember... Did, did you ever bump into the, to the Rebbe over there?

28:42 Speaker 1 No, that's where I... That's where, where the Frierdiker Rebbe farbrengen in, in, in our house.

28:49 Speaker 2 The Frierdiker farbrengen in France?

28:50 Speaker 1 In France, in our house. He was that time for a cure in a place called Ville d'Avray for a rest and a cure there. And, uh, intermittently, he was in Pari- in Paris, so he was, he was in our house.

29:08 Speaker 2 There were a lot of Hasidim there?

29:09 Speaker 1 Huh?

29:10 Speaker 2 There were a lot of Hasidim?

29:11 Speaker 1 There were Hasid- There were a lot of Hasid- Hasidim. Our house is a kind of larger houses. The, the... Not so many Lubavitcher Hasidim. There were other Hasidim that came, but, uh, not... There weren't too many Lubavitcher Hasidim in Paris in those days.

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30:44 Speaker 1 Yes, he came to my house. I remember when my father was sick, he came to make a kallah. I mean-

30:52 Speaker 2 How did you know him as the, the Rebbe's son-in-law?

30:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, we had great derech eretz for him. The, the house was clean, spotless, from head to toe. And, uh- Everything, you know.

31:09 Speaker 2 So he came to do bikur cholim by your father?

31:12 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

31:12 Speaker 2 Do you remember what it was like for... What, what... Do you remember him walking into your house?

31:17 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. I got... And, and I don't remember. He was with my father in his room alone.

31:24 Speaker 2 Right. And the rebbetzin came with him also?

31:28 Speaker 1 No, she didn't come. Rebbetzin Nechama Dina came when the rebbe was in Paris, when... In the, in the, in the... I came home because I w- was very puzzled. She was hard of hearing already.

31:43 Speaker 2 Rebbetzin Nechama Dina?

31:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. And but she wanted to hear. She cared very much about what, you know, to hear about our, what we're doing and our situation, everything. S- Um, and the way she communicated, she had a, a hearing aid, but it isn't like hearing aid these days, the modern hearing aid, a little thing. It was a horn, a trumpet-

32:12 Speaker 2 Right

32:12 Speaker 1 ... that she held about... It was two foot, foot long.

32:16 Speaker 2 Right.

32:16 Speaker 1 And she held it t-up to her ear, and she, she s- and she, uh, she cared, she spoke. Uh, uh...

32:26 Speaker 2 What was it like to have the rebbe and his wife come to your house?

32:30 Speaker 1 Huh?

32:31 Speaker 2 What was it like to have the rebbe and the rebbetzin come into your house?

32:33 Speaker 1 The rebbetzin didn't come. Rebbetzin Moshe didn't come to the house.

32:36 Speaker 2 Rebbetzin Nechama Dina didn't come to your house?

32:38 Speaker 1 Rebbetzin Nechama Dina came. I mean-

32:40 Speaker 2 And so what was it like for the Friediker rebbe and Rebbetzin Nechama Dina to come to your house?

32:43 Speaker 1 Oh, the Friediker rebbe was came as a brang. That was-

32:47 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. He came as... He didn't come on his own.

32:50 Speaker 1 Well, it's, it's like, was different, but, uh, it was so, yeah, Nechama Dina was, uh, uh, very, very special.

33:00 Speaker 2 Can you remember the, the... Can you remember the Friediker rebbe shabbes brangen in your house? Do you remember?

33:05 Speaker 1 No.

33:05 Speaker 2 Were you listening into it?

33:07 Speaker 1 No, I was not. I d- I didn't, I don't, don't re- I don't remember.

33:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

33:19 Speaker 1 I can't beswhat at that time, nine, ten, nine, ten years old, nine years old.

33:23 Speaker 2 I understand.

33:25 Speaker 1 Ten.

33:25 Speaker 2 So what... So, so your family's in Paris, um, in the years before the war.

33:31 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

33:31 Speaker 2 Uh, did, did you realize that something very bad was going on in Germany, or that was hard to believe?

33:39 Speaker 1 I, I personally knew, uh, didn't know. Uh, uh, my, uh, uh, but of course, the fact that there were so many refugees already in France in those years, there were the, uh, from Poland and from... Some of the refugees were Polish hidden that lived in Germany-

34:02 Speaker 2 Right

34:02 Speaker 1 ... that had to escape. So they were... France was very kind and let in a, a lot of, uh, refu- a lot of people, y-you know. It didn't, was not strict on, on giving visas. It w- And so I was more involved with, with what's happening socially. Uh, the, my father al- uh, right away opened up, uh, canteens, uh, for, for people that they needed to help. There were a lot of, a lot of people had no money, no jobs. They had... They didn't know the language and so. And, and, and a Talmud Torah, and I joined, uh, and there was a Talmud Torah in our house there in Paris. Our house is, it was the famous house, a ridgeur. That was our apartment. That's where we lived, where the rebbe later came, uh, to, with his, uh, to pick up his mother. That was our, our apartment.

35:13 Speaker 2 You had the house through the war? From before the war and after the war?

35:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:18 Speaker 2 Where were you during the war?

35:20 Speaker 1 Uh, during the war, we were hi- uh, uh, we were traveling, hiding children all through France.

35:29 Speaker 2 And where did your parents-

35:30 Speaker 1 Hmm?

35:30 Speaker 2 Where did your parents go during the war?

35:32 Speaker 1 With my parents. Yeah.

35:33 Speaker 2 Your parents were hiding in these houses with you?

35:35 Speaker 1 Well, uh, w- my, my, my father opened up children home. That's all through the war. He hi- he had pe- he hid people.

35:45 Speaker 2 He hid people. He hid Yiddish children during the war.

35:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

35:50 Speaker 2 Where? In France?

35:51 Speaker 1 In France.

35:52 Speaker 2 How did he not get caught?

35:55 Speaker 1 Somehow he walked between raindrops.

35:59 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So your famil- your family survived through the war intact?

36:04 Speaker 1 Well, he, we took care of other... He had a chance to leave. He didn't wanna leave his people.

36:09 Speaker 2 Right.

36:10 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

36:10 Speaker 2 And these weren't only Lubavitcher children.

36:12 Speaker 1 Hmm?

36:12 Speaker 2 These were not only-

36:13 Speaker 1 No, no Lubavitcher children

36:14 Speaker 2 ... no Lubavitcher.

36:15 Speaker 1 There were no Lubavitcher.

36:16 Speaker 2 Just Jewish children.

36:17 Speaker 1 There was a single Lubavitcher in... It's, it was, he was a Chason Greenberg.

36:23 Speaker 2 Mm.

36:24 Speaker 1 At that time. The same Paris, there was no Lubavitcher. There were other Polishes to them.

36:30 Speaker 2 So your father had no fear, basically. Your father was a fearless man.

36:33 Speaker 1 He's a, uh, he's a very fearless man.

36:37 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow. So you, you, you, you were in f- uh, Paris before the war. You was... You run around the countryside during the war, and then you come back to Paris after the war.

36:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:49 Speaker 2 And that's, and that apartment is where the famous picture of the, of the rebbe with his-

36:53 Speaker 1 Yeah

36:53 Speaker 2 ... with his mother.

36:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:56 Speaker 2 Do you remember that? Do you remember that meeting?

36:57 Speaker 1 No, I was here.

36:58 Speaker 2 Oh, you were here. You missed it.

37:00 Speaker 1 I was here with my father.

37:02 Speaker 2 Oh, your father wasn't even there.

37:03 Speaker 1 My father wasn't even there.

37:05 Speaker 2 How about that?

37:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, but my-- but he slept in the same room where Rebbetzin Chana with my mother.

37:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. And they're upstate by your... They're also?

37:14 Speaker 1 No, they're upstate in a hotel.

37:16 Speaker 2 In a hotel.

37:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

37:18 Speaker 2 Huh.

37:19 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:20 Speaker 2 So you don't remember that. You were here. What were you doing here? Your father was already moving here?

37:25 Speaker 1 Uh, no. My father... It's, it's, it's a long story. My father, uh, came to raise money. He had incurred a lot of debts saving all the pe- the people-

37:39 Speaker 2 Right

37:40 Speaker 1 ... that he saved, and the children, and, uh, he came to raise money here.

37:47 Speaker 2 Right.

37:48 Speaker 1 And w- and we were a dismal failure. I came with him to help.

37:53 Speaker 2 And it didn't work?

37:55 Speaker 1 No, because people don't give on the past. They only give on projects for the future, you know.

38:01 Speaker 2 That's right.

38:02 Speaker 1 Nobody gives you for the, for what you did for the past.

38:05 Speaker 2 Right.

38:07 Speaker 1 And eventually, uh, he repaid everybody because it, he-- we had beautiful furniture in our... When we lived in Paris before the war, and the Germans took it. Actually, it must have been German furniture, and they took it back to Germany to... They re- they really appreciated that, our furniture. To the, uh, empty the whole, the whole h- the whole house. And so we got the reparations. We got paid for those, for the furniture.

38:45 Speaker 2 And so you used that money to pay back your debts. How about that? How about that? So eventually, your family moved to America?

38:55 Speaker 1 And eventually, yeah, when, uh, and, uh, I, I met my husband here, I mean, uh, so that was... That's why it was not a total loss coming here with my father. I, I, I gained a lot.

39:11 Speaker 2 Oh, you met your husband on that trip?

39:12 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, coming... Uh, here, while I was here, yeah. And then my mother came for the, for the wedding.

39:20 Speaker 2 And then your parents stayed here? They moved here after?

39:23 Speaker 1 They stayed for a while, but he, my father went back to work, uh, to, uh, to do, you know, he left, he, he left a yeshiva there. He left a, a girls' home. He did, he did, he, he, uh, he made, he, after the war.

39:39 Speaker 2 What year are you moving to the United States?

39:43 Speaker 1 Uh, I came here in nineteen forty-seven. I got married nineteen forty-nine.

39:50 Speaker 2 Nineteen forty-nine.

39:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:53 Speaker 2 What was it... Was... In those days, would a couple go into the Friediker Rebbe for your kiddush? Was that, was that something that happened before the-

40:00 Speaker 1 Oh, I'm sure.

40:02 Speaker 2 What was that like?

40:12 Speaker 1 I don't... You know, I'm a terrible person with kiddush. I mean, I have such awe that I totally lose it, and I don't even hear everything that is said. You know, I, I... It's just the Friediker Rebbe to me looked almost like a malach.

40:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

40:35 Speaker 1 But, uh, uh, I, uh... Hmm. Uh, it's in... You know, I wa- I was sick the, the, the, uh, the, the, the before my wedding. I mean, we, uh, we got married in Shoshana Purim, but, uh, uh, bef- uh, the... My father, uh, wrote to the Friediker Rebbe that, that I'm not, uh, that I'm s- that I'm sick. So the Friediker Rebbe answered that when the balka'ra, when he reads the megillah, when he says, "V'hu ha'me'on es hadassa," he should s- he should do it w- with a kol ram, with a, with a loud voice.

41:34 Speaker 2 'Cause your name is Hadassa.

41:38 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:39 Speaker 2 Did it help?

41:40 Speaker 1 Yes.

41:41 Speaker 2 You felt better?

41:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. I ho... I was so hoarse at my wedding, nobody could hear me, but, uh.

41:47 Speaker 2 It's okay.

41:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:48 Speaker 2 You're dancing anyway.

41:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:52 Speaker 2 And where, where was your husband from? Was he from here?

41:55 Speaker 1 No, my husband is from a real Yekke family, anti-Lubavitch. Not so much anti-Lubavitch, but they wanted his, him, and his twin brother to, um, go to Litvish yeshivas, so they had this vikoach with the Friediker Rebbe, uh, about, uh, uh, uh, about, uh, my husband at- attending Lubavitch yeshiva. My husband was originally... They put him in Lakewood, but he escaped, and he went to Lubavitch.

42:33 Speaker 2 This is your, this is your... His, his parents want-

42:36 Speaker 1 His parents. Yeah.

42:38 Speaker 2 And why did he wanna go to Lubavitch? What was drawing him to Lubavitch?

42:42 Speaker 1 He met the Friediker Rebbe when he was a teenager, I think, in, in Europe.

42:47 Speaker 2 In Europe?

42:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. And one... And the, the, the Lubavitcher Rebbe used to go, like all other rabbeim in those days, and, uh, lots of people used to go to take the waters as a cure.

43:07 Speaker 2 Right.

43:10 Speaker 1 And my husband's father, my father-in-law He had, he was a, a, a Rolf, a, a, a real German kind, uh, uh, type of Rolf, but he had... And he, uh, and, and he did a lot for literature, uh, r-r-rabbonim ra-- that came, th-th-that, that needed help in any way. S-somehow he was... But he had great derech eretz for, for Hasidish re-rabbis also. So he take, he took the boys to meet the, the, the rabbeim that came f-for, to take the boys to the cure, so he, he took, they brought him to the Fri-the Friediker Rebbe.

44:02 Speaker 2 And if, and your, and your husband was very impressed?

44:04 Speaker 1 I, I... Love at first sight on both s- mutual.

44:09 Speaker 2 Him and his brother?

44:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, mutual with the Rebbe.

44:12 Speaker 2 His brother was Shlomo, right?

44:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:16 Speaker 2 And so th-they moved to America after, before the war?

44:19 Speaker 1 Hmm?

44:19 Speaker 2 They came to America when?

44:20 Speaker 1 They came in, they came in 1940.

44:23 Speaker 2 Right before the-

44:25 Speaker 1 This was this, the war started. They were first in England for a year and, uh, for a while, and then they came here.

44:31 Speaker 2 Right. And when the Friediker Rebbe came here, they, they, they-

44:35 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:35 Speaker 2 ... they reconnected.

44:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:39 Speaker 2 And you met your, you met your husband here.

44:41 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

44:41 Speaker 2 So you, you decided right away that you would live here together on-once you got married?

44:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:46 Speaker 2 Y-you lived here after you got married?

44:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:49 Speaker 2 Yeah. You're not going back to France or anything?

44:51 Speaker 1 No. No, no, no.

44:57 Speaker 2 Uh, do, do you remember the first... I'm sure you remember the, the transition from the Friediker Rebbe to the, to the Rebbe after him?

45:07 Speaker 1 You know, I didn't live in Brooklyn at that time.

45:09 Speaker 2 Where did you live?

45:14 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, uh, first, uh, uh... The first, uh, the... No, when the, when the, when, uh, when the Friediker Rebbe went to heaven, I still lived in Brooklyn, but then we moved, we moved, we moved to New Jersey. Okay. But, uh, I just had my, my first baby, and then my second baby after. I wasn't, uh, in New Jersey especially, I wasn't too involved in what was happening here. It was a diff- it was a different time, you know? We, we, in the beginning, we didn't have a car. Uh, the phone, we had a... If I tell it to somebody, no, they can't even believe that the, our phone was like with somebody else. We shared a phone.

46:19 Speaker 2 Right. Sure.

46:20 Speaker 1 Huh?

46:21 Speaker 2 Sure. I've read about it, yeah.

46:22 Speaker 1 You heard about it?

46:23 Speaker 2 Of course. Yeah.

46:25 Speaker 1 It's the weirdest thing, you know? We, we're talking to someone, they pick up the phone, tell us to get off. They need the, they, they need the line.

46:35 Speaker 2 Right.

46:38 Speaker 1 Just whatever, whatever. So I, I didn't know very much what was, uh... My, my husband was very involved though, and I didn't even see un-until later. We found a letter where he's writing. He's writing about, uh, about, uh, that he was at farbrengen, the year in between, before the Friediker Rebbe took on, uh, before the, uh, before the Rebbe took on. And he writes about the Friediker Rebbe, and he finishes with the Rebbe that he attended his farbrengen. And, uh, so first he write how s- how s- how, how, how sad he is, how, about, uh, you know, he can't, how painful, how everybody is. And, and then he writes about the Fri- about the Rebbe, about his farbrengen, and he ends with, "And he's still... And he's going to surpass the Friediker Rebbe."

47:57 Speaker 2 That's what your husband wrote?

47:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:59 Speaker 2 To who? Just-

48:01 Speaker 1 To his friend, I think to Rabbi Rifkind's son in St. Louis.

48:10 Speaker 2 Hmm.

48:14 Speaker 1 What's his name? I have problem with names. All of a s- It will come back in a few minutes a-afterward.

48:21 Speaker 2 Wow. S- this, this is what your husband, this is what your husband noticed-

48:29 Speaker 1 Uh

48:29 Speaker 2 ... in, in the year bef- in the year between, the hiatus.

48:32 Speaker 1 He was a, he was a good judge.

48:34 Speaker 2 He's a good judge.

48:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh-huh.

48:37 Speaker 2 He's a good judge.

48:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

48:41 Speaker 2 When, when, when, when did you start paying attention to the change that was happening in Crown Heights, or...?

48:47 Speaker 1 Well, my, my kids become big Hasidim, I mean, you know, and, uh, and, uh, but we, we, but was, was... We were, uh, uh, we were rushing to farbrengen from New Jersey. We, we didn't have a car, but some... There was a Hasid that lives in New Jersey who, who, uh, Motzei Shabbos, he did not keep the Rabbinic times, times. He, he, the minute he saw three stars, he would pick us up, and we ru- and rush to farbrengen here, we were in here.

49:29 Speaker 2 And you would go as well?

49:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. We were, yeah.

49:34 Speaker 2 Did, w- did something strike you that something was different now than it had been in the past?

49:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, it was very, very different.

49:41 Speaker 2 In what way?

49:41 Speaker 1 The style somehow was, it was a different st- a different style. The, the, the Friediker Rebbe did not speak so much at length. You know, he was more cryptic, so was, uh, sh-shorter, like, uh... And the, the Rebbe spoke quite long. The farbrengens were very, very long. It takes a while to, to get used to listen for so, for so long.

50:24 Speaker 2 Did you see a difference in, in, in also the vision of, of where things were going?

50:33 Speaker 1 No, not so much. Not so much. I'm reading now the book, Undaunted.

50:41 Speaker 2 Yes, by Rabbi Eli Ezrie.

50:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, Eli Ezrie. And I'm just at a chapter of, of the Friediker Rebbe, how he started the yeshivas here, you know. And I, I knew it, but I... The details, but it's, it, it, it's, it's beyond. He st- tells Rabbi Jaco- Jacobs on the day he arrived that the next day there has to be a yeshiva.

51:12 Speaker 2 Right.

51:12 Speaker 1 Open a yeshiva the next day.

51:14 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

51:19 Speaker 1 Eh.

51:24 Speaker 2 But, but there was still, there was a, there was a, a push for, for shluchis and for-

51:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, a push for sh- it was, it, it began the, the, um...

51:37 Speaker 2 Did you notice a change at that point?

51:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

51:52 Speaker 2 What was your, what was your husband's relationship with his brother, Shloime?

52:06 Speaker 1 As k- as kids, they were very close. But later, later on, my husband had g- had great love and derech Eretz for his brother. He was only a year, uh, uh, excuse me, he was only an hour or two older than my husband.

52:31 Speaker 2 Right.

52:31 Speaker 1 But, but, but he didn't... He was always... He, he said, "But he doesn't understand him."

52:39 Speaker 2 Your fa- your husband said that y- he doesn't understand-

52:41 Speaker 1 He doesn't understand his brother

52:42 Speaker 2 ... his older brother.

52:43 Speaker 1 He doesn't understand the brother.

52:49 Speaker 2 Because of, because of the way things worked out in the end, or in general?

52:57 Speaker 1 I guess in general. You know, my husband begged his brother to leave Lakewood, you know, when he left. Actually, it's so dramatic, dramatic in a way. It's after, after some... It's a hug that he was going back to Lakewood. His parents insisted, you know, "You gotta go back to Lakewood." So the two brothers are sitting on a bus, and they're traveling from Manhattan through Holland Tunnel to New Jersey, you know.

53:44 Speaker 2 Right.

53:45 Speaker 1 There is the rule that a, uh, a bus before enters a tunnel has to open a door for some reason. I don't know why. They, they open the, they have to open the door. My husband knew that. They would go, going back and forth many times already. So he turned ahead to his brother, he says, "When the door opens, I am going out. Please come with me." He said, "The door opened," my husband w- went out, and, and that's-

54:21 Speaker 2 And his brother went to Lakewood.

54:23 Speaker 1 His brother went back to Lakewood.

54:25 Speaker 2 But, but, but Shloime eventually came to learn in, in, in 770, no?

54:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. He never learned in 770.

54:35 Speaker 2 Never learned? But he was involved. He be- he, he was by the Rebbe's farbrengens a bunch of times.

54:39 Speaker 1 He came to farbrengen sometimes, sometimes, sometimes.

54:44 Speaker 2 But he was, he was always in and out at the same time.

54:48 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah, but he didn't go to yeshiva. My, my husband had to, had problems. There were also in, in the yeshiva, there was pressure. Uh, my, my in-laws put pressure on some gevirim not to give money to Lubavitch Yeshiva, uh, because, uh, they c- they, we, uh, until they get rid of, they get to kick my husband out. It's a lot of pressure. They really, they, they, they really, they really pers- persecuted my husband.

55:25 Speaker 2 What was his name?

55:26 Speaker 1 Hmm?

55:26 Speaker 2 What was your husband's name?

55:28 Speaker 1 Elio Chaim.

55:29 Speaker 2 Elio Chaim. Elio Chaim Krauch.

55:31 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. I called him Eli Chaim.

55:36 Speaker 2 Eli Chaim. And, and the reason he stuck it through was simply because, uh, he met the Friediker Rebbe back in Germany.

55:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

55:50 Speaker 2 Hmm. What a story.

55:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:03 Speaker 2 So what, what, what, what ended up happening to your father when he went back to France? He just stayed in France till he passed away?

56:10 Speaker 1 No, he came back. He came here. My father, my father was a, he's a visionary. He's a visionary. It... I can't believe what, uh, what's going on now. Uh, my, my, my children, uh, I have a daughter in Israel, and when she tells me how she, she, she sleeps in the safe room, in the safe room all the time, and, and during the day, day, she's in the, in and out of... My father wrote to... When there was the Cold War in, with, with Russia, my father wrote to politicians here that we need shelters to create... We need shelters.

56:58 Speaker 2 In Israel?

56:59 Speaker 1 No, for here.

57:00 Speaker 2 For here.

57:00 Speaker 1 That was the talk. That was the atomic-

57:03 Speaker 2 Right, nuclear bomb. Right

57:04 Speaker 1 ... they were, they were worried about the atomic, uh, atomic-

57:07 Speaker 2 Right

57:07 Speaker 1 ... ammunition. And now I see in the news that they're already worried that the, some drones can reach California. Uh, from Iranian drones. I can't, can't believe that we would need shel-shelters here. Mm-mm. But he, uh, this is... But he, uh, he saw here that there, there was a, a need for parnasah for Young Aishite, and he opened up a school, electronics, where half, half a day, more than half a day was Y-Yeshiva learning, Yeshiva, and the other half a day, electro- uh, electronic. And so-

58:01 Speaker 2 Here in, here in America, he opened up the school.

58:04 Speaker 1 Here in America. You know, a few places in Brooklyn he had. I remember...

58:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

58:12 Speaker 1 I remember the first computer was the Univac. It, it was larger than my refrigerator.

58:21 Speaker 2 Sure.

58:22 Speaker 1 It was the... And-

58:24 Speaker 2 What, what animated your father? What, what inspired him to do all these different things?

58:30 Speaker 1 He, he, he... When there was a need, when he saw a need, he kind of... And he always anticipated. That's what saved us during the, the war, that he realized there'll be a need of... That we have to move, that whatever. And it's same thing later on. He... We always laughed. My father s- was a heavy smoker. My mother complained that there are ashes all o-all o-on his, uh, clothes all the time. And she kind of, uh, annoyed. It was, he was annoyed that she come all the time. She's have to clean up the, the, you know, the ashes and the-

59:16 Speaker 2 Right

59:17 Speaker 1 ... on the blacks her took, it shows the white, the ashes.

59:20 Speaker 2 Right.

59:22 Speaker 1 So he, uh, he designed a contraption to c-to catch the ashes from the cigarettes. And it's, and it's, and it's, um, what do you call it? Uh, it's patented.

59:36 Speaker 2 It's patented.

59:36 Speaker 1 It was a patent then. Yes. You know, when, uh, uh, things like that, you know.

59:44 Speaker 2 So a very, a very creative mind.

59:46 Speaker 1 A creative mind. And he, he was... A-also there was a, a lot of learning. He was, uh, writing, learning, and so on. He, he's, he's a great writer. He's, uh, poe-poetic, uh, very int-interesting, uh, letters, whatever he wrote also. He's, uh... My daughter is finishing a book, or finished now the book on him.

1:00:14 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

1:00:15 Speaker 1 And all the story about in France, uh, and, uh, how from place to place, and later on here, um, how he saved so many, so many people.

1:00:26 Speaker 2 Did, did, uh... Once you, once your f-parents, once your father moved here, your mother also moved here?

1:00:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:33 Speaker 2 Once your parents moved here, and you were here, did, did, did you have any interaction with the rebbetzin?

1:00:40 Speaker 1 With here? Of course. Uh-

1:00:43 Speaker 2 Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka.

1:00:44 Speaker 1 Of course. All three rebbetzins.

1:00:47 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Rebbetzin Sterna Sara.

1:00:50 Speaker 1 Uh, huh?

1:00:50 Speaker 2 Rebbetzin St- Well, oh, well who's the three? Rebbetzin Chana.

1:00:53 Speaker 1 Rebbetzin Chana, Rebbetzin Chamadina-

1:00:56 Speaker 2 Rebbetzin Chamadina

1:00:56 Speaker 1 ... Rebbetzin Mushka.

1:00:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:58 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:01:00 Speaker 2 And, uh-

1:01:00 Speaker 1 And their sis- M-Rebbetzin... I have to say that I had a very good relationship with Rebbetzin Mushka's sis- uh, sister, Rebbetzin Mushka's sister, Chana.

1:01:11 Speaker 2 Chana. You had one. You had a relationship with her too. Was that very difficult to see the whole story that happened and they-

1:01:18 Speaker 1 Very painful. So painful. So painful. 'Cause Rebbetzin Chana, I used to, I used to go, uh, uh, a lo-a lot to her. She would, she would tell me s- tell stories and, uh, about Rebbetzin Rivka yet, and so on.

1:01:45 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:01:47 Speaker 1 She, she's a good, was a good storyteller, and I loved to listen to her. But one day she told me, "Go to my sister," she said. "Go to, go to my sister. You really belong to her."

1:02:03 Speaker 2 Uh, this was after the story? This was a-

1:02:06 Speaker 1 Before the, the Sfarim.

1:02:08 Speaker 2 Before the Sfarim? So there's already some kind of rift. There's a little bit of distance already before?

1:02:15 Speaker 1 No.

1:02:15 Speaker 2 No.

1:02:16 Speaker 1 They were very close.

1:02:17 Speaker 2 They were close.

1:02:18 Speaker 1 Very close.

1:02:19 Speaker 2 So what does it mean that you belong to her?

1:02:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, I belong to her.

1:02:23 Speaker 2 To, to Haymusha?

1:02:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:25 Speaker 2 What does that mean?

1:02:27 Speaker 1 It-- That means that probably that, uh, i-it's good for Haym-- for, for both of us to... That's what she said. She wanted me... Or maybe at that time, there weren't, you know, Rebzem Muskat did not have so many visitors.

1:02:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:02:51 Speaker 1 It's not that people didn't wanna come, it's, uh, it's that there was a certain-

1:02:58 Speaker 2 She was very private, wasn't she?

1:02:59 Speaker 1 Very, very private. But not, not to me. So Hannah said, "Go to her," you know.

1:03:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:07 Speaker 1 Go, so.

1:03:09 Speaker 2 So you went to visit, you, you went to visit Rebzem quite a bit?

1:03:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:13 Speaker 2 And what was that like?

1:03:15 Speaker 1 It was nice. Before I was married, I e-even ate supper there with the rabbi and the Rebzem. I mean, they invited me.

1:03:24 Speaker 2 Well, this is before he was rabbi, right?

1:03:26 Speaker 1 That's before he was rabbi.

1:03:28 Speaker 2 So you ate in there, uh, they lived in the apartment then on New York Avenue?

1:03:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:32 Speaker 2 You ate in-

1:03:32 Speaker 1 Corner of President Street.

1:03:34 Speaker 2 What was that like? Who served dinner?

1:03:39 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:03:40 Speaker 2 Who served the food?

1:03:42 Speaker 1 The Rebzem.

1:03:43 Speaker 2 The Rebzem served the food.

1:03:44 Speaker 1 Sure.

1:03:45 Speaker 2 And the rabbi spoke to you, spoke during the meal?

1:03:47 Speaker 1 He spoke, he asked me a few question, but I was, like, sitting like a mouse. I was so...

1:03:53 Speaker 2 You ate? Did you eat?

1:03:55 Speaker 1 Barely. I pick-- I didn't... I wasn't much of a eater that, anyway, these days

1:04:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I tease my children. I tell them I know what the rabbi liked to eat.

1:04:11 Speaker 2 What's that? What did he like to eat?

1:04:13 Speaker 1 I'm not telling.

1:04:13 Speaker 2 You're not telling, eh?

1:04:14 Speaker 1 I'm not telling because gonna be a run on it. And then what are the other stores gonna do?

1:04:23 Speaker 2 Right. But was there, was there, uh, you know, what's it called, um...

1:04:28 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:04:29 Speaker 2 You know, when people, when people meet, they just have conversation, light conversation. Was there that kind of light conversation at the table?

1:04:40 Speaker 1 Very little.

1:04:41 Speaker 2 Very little.

1:04:42 Speaker 1 Very little.

1:04:44 Speaker 2 Just polite and respectful.

1:04:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:04:48 Speaker 2 You ever would go to their house after, after the, after, after he became rabbi, would you go to their house on President Street?

1:04:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, I would. I went.

1:04:58 Speaker 2 Did you ever, did you ever see the rabbi there?

1:05:01 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:05:04 Speaker 2 What was that like?

1:05:06 Speaker 1 The same. For me, it was the same as before, you know. I-

1:05:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, the same. And then the Rebzem Hannah lived with them for a while.

1:05:16 Speaker 2 And you would go visit her as well.

1:05:18 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:05:18 Speaker 2 You would go visit her as well.

1:05:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, but yeah, no, uh, I, I visit her when she was with them, and then she lived separately. Uh, then she moved.

1:05:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:28 Speaker 1 I visit with-

1:05:30 Speaker 2 What would you speak to Rebzem Hannah about?

1:05:32 Speaker 1 Uh, she would speak a lot about Russia, but we did more singing than speaking.

1:05:43 Speaker 2 You would sit and sing with Rebzem Hannah?

1:05:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:05:45 Speaker 2 You sit and-

1:05:46 Speaker 1 We liked Nigunim both of us, yeah.

1:05:48 Speaker 2 So you would sing together.

1:05:49 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:05:50 Speaker 2 Just the two of you at home.

1:05:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:05:52 Speaker 2 For how long?

1:05:54 Speaker 1 Uh, until the rabbi used to come to visit, and then I would scram.

1:06:02 Speaker 2 So you came, you came just to keep her company, basically.

1:06:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:06:06 Speaker 2 And you sing Nigunim.

1:06:07 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:06:08 Speaker 2 This was she was already-

1:06:09 Speaker 1 And then, but at one point when I lived in New Jersey, it wasn't so... You know, that's before I had a car. Then we had a car, I came more, more often. But in the early times, I, I didn't have a car so much. I didn't have a car-

1:06:26 Speaker 2 So, so, so these visits that you're talking about were before you went to New Jersey?

1:06:30 Speaker 1 This was af-- Uh, uh, uh, that's when we were in New Jersey, but, but there was a time before the car and after the

1:06:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:06:39 Speaker 1 After, after with the car. So be-before the car, it was mostly on the phone with, with... I, I didn't s-see her that often, just-

1:06:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:49 Speaker 1 But, uh, but for a while, if I didn't call her, then she used to call me the «Arov Yamtim Tikraiva».

1:06:59 Speaker 2 She would call you that?

1:07:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, because I was called Arov Yamtim. She say, "You say good Yam?" I say, "Good Yam" to her.

1:07:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:06 Speaker 1 She would laugh, and Arov Yamtim Tikraiva.

1:07:09 Speaker 2 And then, then when you had a car, you would come and see-

1:07:11 Speaker 1 I went quite, quite often.

1:07:13 Speaker 2 And you'd sing Nigunim with her.

1:07:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:15 Speaker 2 This is be-- She was older, she was, she was, it was because she was older?

1:07:19 Speaker 1 I think she older, uh, older, older.

1:07:20 Speaker 2 So you were just, you were just, uh, keeping her company.

1:07:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:25 Speaker 2 Mm. So she was too tired to speak.

1:07:27 Speaker 1 Hmm?

1:07:27 Speaker 2 She was too tired to speak.

1:07:29 Speaker 1 No, no, she, she, she spoke.

1:07:33 Speaker 2 Which Nigun did she like? Do you remember?

1:07:35 Speaker 1 Eh?

1:07:35 Speaker 2 Which Nigun did she like?

1:07:37 Speaker 1 Oh, I can't... I know we sang quite a few. I mean-

1:07:40 Speaker 2 Quite a few.

1:07:41 Speaker 1 Some we had a little look a day, some the, on, you know-

1:07:45 Speaker 2 How to sing it.

1:07:46 Speaker 1 How, how the Nigun goes.

1:07:52 Speaker 2 That's, uh-

1:07:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, because my father, he left Russia and, and life continued there, but more Nigunim they knew, what he didn't... When he came to Paris, he, he, he paid this chazen, this chazen that was there, uh, Greenberg, to teach him-

1:08:13 Speaker 2 To know Nigunim.

1:08:14 Speaker 1 More Nigunim

1:08:15 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:08:16 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. He had no money for food, but he paid him for the, the, the gun.

1:08:22 Speaker 2 How about that?

1:08:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:08:24 Speaker 2 Well, it paid off. You, you ended up singing with the, with, with the rebbe, so after that.

1:08:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well-

1:08:29 Speaker 2 And with the, with rebbe and Chaya Mushka, what would you, what would you do to spend the time?

1:08:36 Speaker 1 Uh, that was, uh, politics.

1:08:42 Speaker 2 You spoke politics?

1:08:43 Speaker 1 Also. I, I was, I was very liberal. I, uh, uh, she'd laugh at that a little bit.

1:08:53 Speaker 2 At the... You were a feminist, I suppose.

1:08:55 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:08:55 Speaker 2 By f- by liberal, you mean feminist. You were a feminist.

1:08:58 Speaker 1 No, not so much a feminist, but, um, mostly more accepting of the, uh, the, uh, a-about the, uh... What's the word? The, uh, the, the, the distribution of the people that live in the neighborhoods, the different kind of people.

1:09:31 Speaker 2 Uh.

1:09:32 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:09:33 Speaker 2 And she thought that was... She, she, sh-she-

1:09:36 Speaker 1 She was more realistic.

1:09:38 Speaker 2 More realistic?

1:09:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. More realistic.

1:09:42 Speaker 2 So you're talking about the politics in Crown Heights at the time?

1:09:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh-huh. Also. I know because, uh, New Jersey was a little different, and Crown Heights it was quieter and...

1:09:57 Speaker 2 Do you think it was hard for her to be so... To, to be, to, to be in the role that she was in? Did you get the sense that it was hard for her?

1:10:06 Speaker 1 I, I think it was hard for the rebbe and for her.

1:10:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:11 Speaker 1 In a sense, a sense. She was very hard for her.

1:10:16 Speaker 2 Right. But it seems, it seems like, from the outside, it seems like the-

1:10:18 Speaker 1 You know-

1:10:19 Speaker 2 It seems like the rebbe, once he decided to do it-

1:10:22 Speaker 1 I, I sympathize with her so much because after I was so involved with my father during the, the, during the war years, I, I also wanted privacy. I wanted a private life and nothing to do with, with the, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with pe- with people at all, at all hours of the day and night and so on.

1:10:53 Speaker 2 Right. So you felt that she wanted that too?

1:10:56 Speaker 1 She wa-- I felt, I felt that she wanted it. It's, you know, growing up in a, a, a... There, there's no demarcation. There's no... Sometimes between day and night in a s- in a, in a rebbe's house and, um-

1:11:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:14 Speaker 1 What... Yeah.

1:11:20 Speaker 2 So why do you think, why do you think she went along with it?

1:11:24 Speaker 1 Because, because she's a mensch. When a mensch is, when it's needed, when the time change, you roll... You go with it. You do what has to be done.

1:11:39 Speaker 2 Right. But she still, she still stayed very, very private, right?

1:11:48 Speaker 1 Still very, very private, but, uh, but she encouraged the rebbe, and she, you know, was right be-behind him. I mean, what his-

1:11:58 Speaker 2 Do you think she was, do you think she was proud of the rebbe?

1:12:00 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:12:00 Speaker 2 Do you think she was proud of what the rebbe was doing? Is that, is that something you would, you would-

1:12:05 Speaker 1 I, I wouldn't say... I would say happy b- at, at this point, but I don't know the word proud. Mm, I, I, I, I think that's... She was, uh, she, she knew his, his ability. He-- She knew his capabilities. She knew, you know... You wouldn't, y-you wouldn't, uh... Y-y... I'm thinking when you say the word proud, in term of showing to others how proud I am of...

1:12:45 Speaker 2 No, I don't mean it that way.

1:12:46 Speaker 1 No.

1:12:46 Speaker 2 I mean, sometimes, you know, a spouse knows what, what the other person is, is doing or what it's taking from them to do it.

1:12:54 Speaker 1 Yes. I'm sure that way she was proud. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:12:58 Speaker 2 She ever spoke to you about what the rebbe was doing, the ...</b The shlichas? Did she ever speak to you about that?

1:13:05 Speaker 1 No. Not really. Not really.

1:13:17 Speaker 2 Hmm. Did the re-- Did Rebbetzin Chana ever speak to you about it?

1:13:28 Speaker 1 About the rebbe?

1:13:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:13:29 Speaker 1 No. No, but she showed me, she showed me the siddur of the Baal Shem Tov that I have.

1:13:43 Speaker 2 Uh, it was in her house?

1:13:46 Speaker 1 It, it was on, on a table. Which table was it? Where was it? I think it... I think it was in her house. Yeah. Yeah. Of the rebbe's and, of the rebbe's and Chaim Dedina's house downstairs. I don't... Yeah.

1:14:23 Speaker 2 So when, when, when, uh, when, when the story of the Sfarim happened-

1:14:29 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:14:29 Speaker 2 -how, how did you make sense of it as someone who knew all the different players?

1:14:37 Speaker 1 I, I, uh, I... Uh, I thought it, it should have been a way of buying him off, but I understand it's right. But I, I didn't know that it's right to buy him off.

1:15:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:07 Speaker 1 To give money.

1:15:09 Speaker 2 How did you make sense of the fallout?

1:15:11 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:15:12 Speaker 2 How did you make sense of the fallout? The, the,

1:15:16 Speaker 1 It didn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't.

1:15:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:07 Speaker 1 History that is ve- sometimes very painful. Yeah.

1:16:54 Speaker 2 So when history is very painful, what, what in your mind is the, is the motivation to, to, uh... What is the motivation in the people that you encountered, your family, uh, the, the, the Beis HaRav, the people, the Rebbe, the Rebbetzin that you encounter, what do you feel is the... What is the inspiration that pushes them to move forward despite the difficulties? How would you sum it up? What inspires you to move forward?

1:17:27 Speaker 1 Reading about about people with mesirus nefesh. It's not about, about your dollar damage, you know. It's, it's, yeah. We're, we're very... We're given this, this world. The Rebbe created lo avdo et haaretz shomra. I, I, I will sound like I'm one of the, uh, ecologists when I say that. It doesn't mean just the soil of the, of the lo shomra. It m- it, it, it means to... The avdot is to improve it. To improve. So we have to, we have to improve the yiddishkeit. We have to improve all the time. We have... There is more to be done. There's always more.

1:18:58 Speaker 2 And you feel that today?

1:19:00 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:19:00 Speaker 2 You feel that today?

1:19:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's very hard for parents when the-- sometimes when the children go on shlichus far, far a- far away, and that we hardly see them. Uh, although it's much better communication now than in the old da- than in the old days. At least it-- people fly. They come all over. They, they, they see each other. But when you read about the Chasam Sofer, years ago, that their children left-- the Rebbe sent them all over, all over the world and, and such mesirus nefesh. And yes, there's still, still more to be done.

1:19:50 Speaker 2 That's a, that's a, that's a wonderful note to, to, to end off this interview.

1:19:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:56 Speaker 2 Thank you very much for, for your time.

1:19:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:59 Speaker 2 The Rebbe should bless you with, with many years of gesundheit.

1:20:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:03 Speaker 2 Nachas.

1:20:04 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe should help us right now and help us yishar al, alei yiden.

1:20:12 Speaker 2 Amen. Amen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

1:20:14 Speaker 1 You're welcome.

1:20:17 Speaker 2 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Zorn Arada Bachar, and is used with their permission.