Ep. 64 // "Learning To Think" w/ Rabbi Tzvi Freeman

00:00 Speaker 1 Turns out that so much of what we thought was intelligence is really artificial intelligence.

00:07 Speaker 2 Wow.

00:07 Speaker 1 Mimicry. Easy thing to go through yeshiva and just learn to mimic.

00:12 Speaker 2 Right.

00:12 Speaker 1 And you can become a mashpia in Lubavitch just So at which point do you s- do you stop mimicking and start actually thinking? You have to think. As soon as you're able to say, "I don't understand this. This doesn't make sense to me. I don't have an answer to this," so then that's evidence that you're really thinking.

00:38 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Yafson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Righty, we are here with Rabbi Tzvi Freeman in Sandy Springs, Georgia.

01:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:02 Speaker 2 Thank you very much.

01:03 Speaker 1 You got the right place.

01:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I did. Thank you very much for, uh, for agreeing to do this.

01:08 Speaker 1 Fantastic.

01:09 Speaker 2 A pleasure meeting you, it seems like for the second time at least.

01:12 Speaker 1 At least. At least, yeah.

01:14 Speaker 2 All right. Uh, it, it, it, it turns out that you're certainly more memorable than I am

01:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:20 Speaker 2 'Cause I remember something you said, and you don't remember a thing that I said. Pro-- Truth is, I probably did not say anything interesting. That's the truth. That's probably... That's-

01:30 Speaker 1 No, no rhyme. No rhyme.

01:32 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Fair. But I, I think that's probably what happened. Um, so anyway, uh, we were talking of the thing that I do remember you telling me, and this is a f- quite a few years ago, was that, uh, when you were, I think at Morristown, that you, you were, you were at that point very interested in, you said Taoism or?

01:53 Speaker 1 Before I came.

01:54 Speaker 2 Right, before you came.

01:55 Speaker 1 What, what I was talking about i-is what influences my way of writing.

02:00 Speaker 2 Right.

02:01 Speaker 1 And, uh, so before meeting up with Chassidus, there were many things that fascinated me. But as far as literature goes, uh, there was a, a recent translation of, uh, Laozi, the Tao Te Ching and so on. And the way it was translated was using the, the language of the N- New England transcendentalists. So you know who those are, like, um, uh, who knew New England transcen- transcendentalists. Names are, are flying away from me right now. But in the n- nineteenth century, there were certain authors, Walt, uh, Whitman, um, there was the psychologist, uh, uh, William James. There was, um... Anyways, they, they were, um, found ways of writing spirituality, and they were-- they had a very distinct style.

03:07 Speaker 2 Okay.

03:07 Speaker 1 So somebody translated Laozi, which is Taoism, basically, which are these little sort of like haiku, but it-- when we're talking about Southeast Asia, not Japan, and translated n- using that type of, uh, uh, of language. So it's very cryptic. You can't really understand what's, what's going on over here. You're supposed to try to figure it out. Um, but the language was a kind of English that sort of supported that. And I was very-- It, it, it, it really sung with me. So the way that I ended up writing the books that I best, I'm best known for is, uh, Bringing Heaven Down to Earth and what goes now out as The Daily Dose-

03:47 Speaker 2 Right

03:47 Speaker 1 ... i-is, is in that style. I figure I'll do Chassidus. Chassidus just came out naturally in that way. But that, that... I was just talking about the influence-

03:56 Speaker 2 Right

03:56 Speaker 1 ... from a, from a literary standpoint, that's all.

03:59 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah, and, and, and it goes without saying that it's not like you can... Even if you wanted to, you can't just, uh, transfer what they were saying into Chassidus without learning Chassidus and going on a whole journey. You have to ingest the Chassidus before you can even put it out in that style, even if you're copy and pasting the style, right? It's not like you can just, um, you can't just, you can't, you can't superimpose it on top of Chassidus without a understanding of Chassidus.

04:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So, so what a lot of authors are doing are they're-- I think we've only recently discovered what is it that we were doing all along. Uh, we have these LLMs, these large language models.

04:40 Speaker 2 Right.

04:41 Speaker 1 So that turns out that that's what most, most of the time we were doing most of the time with Chassidus.

04:45 Speaker 2 Right.

04:46 Speaker 1 We were just mimicking like they, like these machines do. We were just mimicking. But to really, to really transport it from one world to another, you have to, like you're saying, you have to, to go dive into the well and go deep, deep down into the bottom, and then you come up with some real water, and then you find the packaging for it. You'll find the right packaging for it. But most of, most of the stuff is just, "Oh, we translate this like this, we translate that like that," and, and you, you don't get anything. You're getting the, the, the surf- the very surface that way.

05:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I, I guess we could... We-we'll come back to your story, um, in a bit, but I think we already jumped in the deep end, so let's swim in it a little bit.

05:30 Speaker 1 I like deep ends.

05:31 Speaker 2 You like deep ends.

05:31 Speaker 1 So we'll go swimming, go straight for the deep end, yeah.

05:33 Speaker 2 God, God bless you. Man, man after my own heart. So certainly when it comes to conversations like-

05:39 Speaker 1 Play around. Don't get your feet wet when you can get your head wet.

05:41 Speaker 2 You're gonna get, you're gonna be cold anyway. You might as well have fun.

05:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:45 Speaker 2 Um, yeah, so anyway. Yeah, so we're not talking about deep end of a mikvah. We're talking about the deep end of a pool.

05:50 Speaker 1 No, no, it's just deep ends, deep ends in general.

05:52 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably best not to cannonball into the mikvah, uh, but, um-

05:57 Speaker 1 It's been done, especially Teferes guys in Morristown. They did that sort of thing, yeah.

06:01 Speaker 2 I am sure.

06:01 Speaker 1 We threw, we threw them in when I was there. I know.

06:03 Speaker 2 I'm sure. That's funny. Yeah. Uh, yeah, cannonballing in the mikvah, that could be, that could be- That could be like a band or something.

06:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

06:12 Speaker 2 Um, but-

06:12 Speaker 1 With your rubber ducky

06:13 Speaker 2 ... with your rubber ducky. No, but it's something that like, uh, has come up re- on a recurring basis, um, is how do we translate Bittle into English? I've seen people discuss it online. I think it's come up on the podcast a bunch of times.

06:29 Speaker 1 Self-transcendence.

06:30 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Well, the... One second. Usually it's self-nullification.

06:33 Speaker 1 Nah.

06:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's like what does it... No, but, but even if you don't agree with this, like what does that even mean?

06:37 Speaker 1 Abnegation. They use abnegation.

06:39 Speaker 2 Abnegation. It's like would you-

06:40 Speaker 1 What's the other one? Effulgence, permeate.

06:42 Speaker 2 Right.

06:42 Speaker 1 There's a couple of them, the words that you'll only hear from your Chabad rabbi.

06:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

06:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

06:46 Speaker 2 Yes. Self, self-nullification. And like, first of all, I don't know what those words even mean. And, and like what strikes me is not so much like a game of like what is the word, what, what I feel is like even in Hebrew, the word Bittle doesn't mean anything.

06:59 Speaker 1 Mm.

06:59 Speaker 2 The word Bittle means, it could mean Bittle Bashishim, like, like a physical ki- like a, uh, an, an irrelevance that comes by, by, by quantity. It can mean all kinds of things. The reason that people have this idea of Bittle in their mind is 'cause they've learned a lot of Hasidis and, and the, the idea of Bittle, the word of Bittle is associated with these large ideas and these compli- complex ideas. So when you say Bittle, it, it c- it connects to all of that, right? It associates with those ideas, and then we try to transfer it to English without the context, and then the one person says this, and one person says that. I, I do remember, although I haven't read it for years, I'll be honest with you, your, your preface to, uh, uh, Bringing Heaven Down to Earth.

07:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:44 Speaker 2 Which was for many, for, for a long time, maybe still is my, my father's favorite book. He was telling everyone about it when it came out. I remember you open up a beautiful idea of the window, of the tzadik.

07:54 Speaker 1 That's the second book. That, that's, that's, uh-

07:55 Speaker 2 Oh, that's the second book?

07:56 Speaker 1 That's... was, um, "Be Here," um, uh, "Be Here"-

08:01 Speaker 2 "Be Above, Stay Within"?

08:02 Speaker 1 "... Be Above, Stay Within," yeah.

08:04 Speaker 2 Okay.

08:04 Speaker 1 Stay With... Whichever way it was.

08:06 Speaker 2 But it was your book.

08:07 Speaker 1 It was my book. Yeah, that's- that's the introduction, yeah.

08:09 Speaker 2 So, so you have the beautiful idea of the window and, and how the window... So I think that's, you're talking about-

08:14 Speaker 1 Mm

08:14 Speaker 2 ... about the transparency, or you said self-transcendence, you said, you said transparency.

08:18 Speaker 1 Self-transcendence. Well, self-transcendence, yeah. I think, I think what you're talking about is, again, uh, i- in Chabad, you're supposed to learn how to think.

08:26 Speaker 2 Right.

08:27 Speaker 1 It's not so much you're learning material-

08:29 Speaker 2 Right

08:29 Speaker 1 ... you learn how to think.

08:31 Speaker 2 Right.

08:32 Speaker 1 I remember Abba Paltiel told me that to be a real kafer, a real Epicurus, you have to learn Hasidus Chabad, because Hasidus Chabad teaches you how to question everything, how to rip everything, all the assumptions, rip them all to pieces and just ruthlessly.

08:50 Speaker 2 Right.

08:51 Speaker 1 A- a- a- and so if you haven't done that, you can't really be a real Epicurus. You know?

08:56 Speaker 2 Right.

08:56 Speaker 1 You can also be a real maimon. You, you can, but you can't be a real maimon unless you know how to rip the walls down.

09:02 Speaker 2 Right.

09:03 Speaker 1 So it's a way of thinking. But the trap is I don't wanna learn how to think. I, I just wanna learn how to, if I'm given this word, I know it connects to this word and that word, and that word connects to this word, and now I connect all the words, and you can ask me a question. I'll just connect the thing to a bunch of other words, and you walk away thinking, "Well, he said so many words. He must have answered my question," right?

09:26 Speaker 2 Drow- drown them in words, baby. Drown them in words.

09:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, but what you're supposed to do, what you're supposed to do is you, you, you take a hatch and you open up the guy's brain-

09:36 Speaker 2 Right

09:36 Speaker 1 ... and show him that there's a whole world out there that he didn't know, and now he goes a-away realizing that his question was so small compared to the real big questions.

09:46 Speaker 2 Right.

09:46 Speaker 1 Now, now you're getting somewhere.

09:47 Speaker 2 Right.

09:48 Speaker 1 Now, that, that's what Hasidus is supposed to do. It's supposed to bring you to ask the real big questions.

09:54 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. Uh, so, so th- this idea of words is a, is a f... and translation is a fascinating, a fascinating thing because even if you like, even if you look in like the Sefer HaMakdashim, right? Like the, the, the different strands of Jewish thought, the Rambam calls Lashon Hakodesh, it's, uh, he says the reason it's called Lashon Hakodesh is because the word, there are, there are no, um, profane words-

10:19 Speaker 1 Yeah

10:19 Speaker 2 ... in, in, in the holy tongue, right?

10:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:21 Speaker 2 And there's certain ideas that, you know, are, are beneath the language, and the language leaves them out. Um, I think he's referring to sexuality there and so on.

10:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:31 Speaker 2 You know, but then you look at the Ramban in the Hakdama, and the Ramban of, of course, uh, adopted, at least in his writings even, a more mystical-

10:39 Speaker 1 The Hakdama to Sefer Bereishit?

10:40 Speaker 2 Yes. He has a more, he has a more mystical kind of strand-

10:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

10:43 Speaker 2 ... uh, strand to him, and he talks about Lashon Hakodesh being 'cause of the letters.

10:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:47 Speaker 2 Right?

10:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:48 Speaker 2 And, and then the Mekubalim, right, there was a clear idea that like the words are not really what, not what Lashon Hakodesh is about. It's about the Tzarufim, right? The words are only the surface level. There is, there are the Tzarufim, which, which, which, which it's about the letters and the letters that are, that are jumbled around. So what, what, what, what I'm, what, what I'm saying is, is that, you know, we, we, we want this kind of easy, like you were saying, this, um, you know, these words that, that provide us these, these, like, support, support, um, th- that provide us with these supports.

11:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:24 Speaker 2 Like, okay, I know that word. I'm familiar with that word.

11:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:26 Speaker 2 So now I know what you're talking about. That's what language is in general, right? Language in general is I say table, you know what I mean. I say this, you know what I mean, but it's all, it's all, it's all ideas that are, that are, that are being pointed to with words.

11:38 Speaker 1 So, so about the, with the Rambam.

11:39 Speaker 2 Yeah.

11:40 Speaker 1 So Rambam a couple times, and it's something that The Alter Rebbe takes from it. In the Moreh Nevuchim, Rambam criticizes the, the, uh, philosophers of the Kalam, the Arabic philosophers. When he doesn't like some idea, he says, "This is not intelligence. It's not Sechel." What is it? It's, Kapach translates it as You're just comparing one thing to another.

12:08 Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

12:08 Speaker 1 But you're not... It's not understanding something. You're saying it gives the example, you see a horse, and you see a bird. So what if I take the wings of the bird and put it on a horse? I got a flying horse.

12:18 Speaker 2 Right.

12:18 Speaker 1 So it's not, that's not intelligence.

12:20 Speaker 2 Right.

12:20 Speaker 1 It's not intelligence. Uh, it's just you're taking things that you know and putting them together.

12:24 Speaker 2 Right.

12:25 Speaker 1 Which we would say today, that's what a large language model does. That's our current AI. That's what it does. It's not intelligence.

12:32 Speaker 2 Right.

12:33 Speaker 1 What is... He says, "What is intelligence?" Is intelligence is, is you ask, "What is a horse?"

12:37 Speaker 2 What is a horse, right.

12:38 Speaker 1 What really is it?

12:39 Speaker 2 Right.

12:39 Speaker 1 You're sort of like imagining what would it be like to be a horse.

12:43 Speaker 2 Right.

12:43 Speaker 1 What is a bird? And then once I understand this is a bird, this is a horse, I c- they can't go together.

12:47 Speaker 2 Right.

12:48 Speaker 1 I, I just understand this because I can't be both, you know? Uh, you're, you're understanding it through the Rambam means being that. You're getting the ma hu, what is it?

12:57 Speaker 2 Right.

12:57 Speaker 1 It's very Aristotelian, really.

12:59 Speaker 2 Yes.

12:59 Speaker 1 What is it? But, but so... And the Alter Rebbe really goes with that a lot. Um, that understanding means ma hu, what is it? But that's a tortuous question. You have to keep on asking. I'll tell you a story. I came to, uh, to Morristown. Okay, I'm learning in Teperis, and there were some things I liked, some things I really didn't like. I didn't like the stuff that tells me that I'm bad and full of klipah and all that. I like the stuff that's like up there and really blows your mind type of stuff. Okay, you get hooked on that. We're gonna-- But anyways, so, um, we had a shiur in Shaar Yichud V'Emunah. That's just an amazing book, wow. This is like blow your mind type of book like-

13:39 Speaker 2 Who's, who's giving you the shiur?

13:41 Speaker 1 Um, they brought out Papertail.

13:43 Speaker 2 Okay.

13:44 Speaker 1 He came, came 'cause he's good friends with Avraham Lipsker, the Rosh Yeshiva so... So he came and he gave us a shiur. And he gave a good shiur, a sort of following. But, you know, I, I'd read many books even i-in, as a teenager, philosophy, ideas, and so on. And this, this is like totally, wow, this is so many of the questions of the, of what was going on in, in seventeenth century, eighteenth century Europe, uh, and, and the ideas even that, that you'll find in the Far East and so on. The- they're all like very, very crisp, like great, straight to the point and just flip everything over. It's amazing. And, and it's such sekhel. It's such sekhel. So what bothered me was, just a minute, this doesn't make sense. It-- What doesn't make sense? If this makes so much sense, it's all sekhel, why doesn't everybody know this?

14:42 Speaker 2 Right.

14:42 Speaker 1 And Abba Putil wasn't around to ask him the que- ask the questions. What... It's bugging me. So somebody said to me, "Why don't you ask Rav Melach?" Rav Melach? You know, the guy with all the hair coming out in all directions, you know. And, uh, the beady eyes rolling around, different, you know. I'm gonna go over to him and... Yeah, go over to him. He's, he's friendly, you know, he likes you.

15:05 Speaker 2 Very friendly.

15:06 Speaker 1 He speaks English. Yeah, he speaks English. Yeah, he speaks, speaks, uh, he's British, you know. He speaks English. Okay. It's a question I gotta... So I found him in the hallway. I accosted him in the hallway. I can't come over to him, and I said, "I got this question." So he smiles and he looks... So okay, so I tell him my question. He has a big smile, and he says, "Let me ask you." He says, "If you have a, uh, a small question, and you ask me this, uh, question, and, and I, in return for the small question, my answer gives you a much, much bigger, much, much bigger question. Which would you rather have, the small question or the big question?" I said, "I guess I'd rather have the small question." So he's, he's smiling. He says, "Okay. So the question is, the question is, if there is only God and everything comes from God, how could I exist?" It's a small question. The big answer is, you don't really exist. Now, which one would you rather have? That's why they don't... That's why they don't want this. Okay. It doesn't mean you don't exist. It means you... In a certain, like in the real, real place, you know, in the yes, at the yeshamiti, it's not, this is not called existence, okay?

16:31 Speaker 2 Chassidus is deeply destabilizing.

16:33 Speaker 1 It did, yeah. So you, you can't handle that.

16:35 Speaker 2 Right.

16:35 Speaker 1 You can't handle that. It's like the, the way the Rebbe explains the mashal of the, the pikeach ana nasik malka. I'll take the kids.

16:43 Speaker 2 Right.

16:43 Speaker 1 The way I imagine that is that let's say you're on a beach city, you know, Atlantic City or some-something like that. Um, and, uh, they tell you the, the, the president and all his entourage is coming to town, right? So who are you gonna take? They, they need a ho- they need a host for each one, each of these guys. So, you know, I'll take the minister of commerce. I need commerce. I got a hotel. I pick the minister of, of transport. What, I need highways here. You know where you're gonna take the president. Why? 'Cause you take the president.

17:18 Speaker 2 It's too much.

17:19 Speaker 1 It's not your house anymore.

17:20 Speaker 2 Right.

17:21 Speaker 1 The, the reporters are all wrecking your front lawn. You can't even sleep in your own bed. You're probably sleeping in the garage. At the table, who's sitting at the head? You're just gonna sit at the head of... It's not your house anymore. The min- the minister of transport, it's your house. The president, it's not your house anymore. Okay? So, so that's the point there. That's bitul. You were asking about bitul before. So I don't care who I'm gonna have. Uh, not this president, maybe another president, but but anyways, uh, so that, that, that's bitul. Anyways, the, the idea of what I'm saying is that there's a type of sekhel. That's the point. There's intellect. And what you're learning with Chassidus is how to really think. It, it, it's, it's a revelation to me now because now we really understand thinking because we see what's artificial thinking.

18:15 Speaker 2 Spring is here, which means that in two months, many communities will be looking for a way to mark Gimmel Tammuz, the Rebbe's yahrtzeit. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World Is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlah Media, inspired by Basili Ganni, the first mimer the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basili Ganni is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Basili Ganni to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the film's original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show. Ha-has that really changed the way you think about your own writing looking back? You feel like you have to revisit what you thought writing was or what you think writing is?

19:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

19:34 Speaker 2 Really? Is it causing, like, a kind of crisis? Or like-

19:38 Speaker 1 Crisis is good.

19:39 Speaker 2 Yes. It's causing a crisis-

19:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

19:41 Speaker 2 ... in, like, w-- in, in, in, in how you estimate your own work up to this point.

19:45 Speaker 1 I mean, a lot of things we do because it turns out that so much of what we thought was intelligence is really artificial intelligence.

19:54 Speaker 2 Wow.

19:54 Speaker 1 Mimicry.

19:55 Speaker 2 Wow.

19:55 Speaker 1 That's the thing that human beings are best at, mimicry.

19:59 Speaker 2 Right. Like monkeys.

20:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. So most of what you learn in, in, uh, especially as an undergrad student in university, you learn in mimicry.

20:07 Speaker 2 Right.

20:08 Speaker 1 And it's easy thing to go through yeshiva and just learn to mimic.

20:12 Speaker 2 Right.

20:13 Speaker 1 And you can become a mashpia in Lubavitch just So at which point do you z- do you stop mimicking and start actually thinking?

20:22 Speaker 2 Uh.

20:22 Speaker 1 And I have to think, "Am I mimicking or am I thinking? Which one am I doing over here?"

20:27 Speaker 2 Right.

20:28 Speaker 1 How do I know?

20:29 Speaker 2 So how do you know?

20:31 Speaker 1 I don't know. Yeah. I've gotta figure this out. Gotta figure this out.

20:36 Speaker 2 You think, you think that's why people are so scared by AI?

20:39 Speaker 1 You know what, you know, you know how you can tell?

20:40 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:41 Speaker 1 There's, there's, there's only two words in English language that AI has not figured out and cannot figure out. Yes and no.

20:50 Speaker 2 Really?

20:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. But so, so therefore, it won't say, "I don't know." So it's when you-- you're, you're trying-

21:00 Speaker 2 No. Yes and no with a K?

21:01 Speaker 1 No, no. N-O.

21:02 Speaker 2 Yes and N-O.

21:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, because you can't know those words from context. Everything... Its learning model is only through context.

21:09 Speaker 2 I see.

21:09 Speaker 1 There's no context to tell you in most, in, in many cases at least, whether no-- what no-- what's the difference between those two words.

21:17 Speaker 2 Right.

21:17 Speaker 1 Contextually, they could be exactly the same thing. So therefore-

21:21 Speaker 2 You're saying 'cause it represents your d-- your, your, your choice, your will?

21:24 Speaker 1 It's not a thing.

21:26 Speaker 2 I see.

21:27 Speaker 1 No one, no one in a sense, yes and sense could... has exactly the same place.

21:31 Speaker 2 Right.

21:32 Speaker 1 Doesn't change it just, just switches everything around, but you can't know that from context.

21:36 Speaker 2 I see.

21:37 Speaker 1 So but, but, but the point is, as soon as you're able to say, "I don't understand this. This doesn't make sense to me. I don't have an answer to this," so then that's evidence that you're really thinking.

21:52 Speaker 2 Interesting.

21:52 Speaker 1 As long as if you, you have the c- the answer, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're not thinking. You don't know that you're thinking.

21:59 Speaker 2 So, so you're saying that when you, uh, it... What I'm understanding is if you learn, if you're learning a mimer and you're swimming through it, you're not understanding a thing.

22:09 Speaker 1 Oh, for sure. For sure. No. I, I heard this-

22:10 Speaker 2 You're not, you're not understanding a thing.

22:12 Speaker 1 I heard this from Leibel Kaplan, uh, so Rosh Yeshiva now in Montreal. He was, he was a Rosh Yeshiva in Seattle.

22:17 Speaker 2 Oh, you were in Seattle?

22:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, in Seattle for two years in Shlichut Seattle, so. So he, he told me, he says, "If you, if you learn the Sugya in, in the Gemara, and you learn it well, y-you got it down, it's all glottic. You can say it over perfectly. You must have gotten something wrong." For sure you got something wrong 'cause it-it's impossible. It's impossible. Das Bereshit v'din de das Neviah. This is God's mind, you know? But I think with any intellect that's true. As soon as you say, "I got this idea down. I got it down pat. I can explain everything with certainty," you're messed up, you know? That's... You're not thinking. You're not thinking 'cause there's always something that's, it's not fitting over here.

23:01 Speaker 2 Right.

23:01 Speaker 1 That, that's what, what reality is about. That's what the real thinking is all about. So this certainty that we get out of AI, that's, that's the best proof that it's, it's not real thinking.

23:13 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

23:14 Speaker 1 Uh.

23:15 Speaker 2 So, so, so, so, so then w- how do you understand learning? Because the, the question then becomes is if you're, if you're learning in order to understand, what you're, what you're, what you're pointing at is in a way that you only begin to understand by not understanding.

23:30 Speaker 1 So it's a beautiful line from the Ramak in, in Sefer HaMoniim. He says that if somebody is learning to gain knowledge, better he weren't born.

23:42 Speaker 2 Uh.

23:43 Speaker 1 That's not what learning is about.

23:45 Speaker 2 The knowledge is here anyway.

23:45 Speaker 1 He's talking about learning Torah.

23:47 Speaker 2 Right.

23:47 Speaker 1 Any, any sort of learning.

23:49 Speaker 2 No, but the knowledge is here. What do we gain by you just kn- getting it for yourself anyhow?

23:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, so you, so you, you just got another... Uh, uh, learning means r- um, anything that you learn, you have to rewire your entire brain.

24:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

24:03 Speaker 1 Um, which should be catastrophic, you know, rewiring your brain. But we have ways of doing it slowly, slowly, and be... It's called like hypocrisy, inconsistency, but, but that's necessary for survival 'cause you can't every time you learn something change absolutely everything that was there.

24:18 Speaker 2 Right.

24:18 Speaker 1 So you do it slowly, right? So we're inconsistent, fine. But it means that, wow, according to that, everything I thought before and the way I thought about it was upside down, you know? I gotta rearrange everything. Now, that, that's the way... When we came out of Rebbe Yitzchak Elchonon, that was the feeling, that, that it just turned everything upside down for me. I have to rethink everything. He just sm- m-m-- He just smashed all my idols, right? He, he d- he destroyed the whole thing. I gotta build everything back up again. Uh, uh, uh, I'm in recovery mode now. So that, that, that was the idea. So that's a real good year. When you're, when you're really learning means everything changes from this point on.

25:04 Speaker 2 How, how, how do you, how do you... And that, that, that does sound exciting. There's no question about it. And, and anyone who learns probably has that kind of memory or feel- uh, r- knows what that feeling is like to explode ideas, and you, you feel in a way your brain light up, right?

25:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:22 Speaker 2 Where it's like, boom, some- something just happened here. And it is very... It's exciting. It's, it's fun. Um-

25:29 Speaker 1 Oh, I'll give you a good example where you see it not working.

25:32 Speaker 2 Right. That's what I was gonna ask you.

25:33 Speaker 1 'Cause I know where I was. That's where I-

25:34 Speaker 2 How, how, how does it not-

25:35 Speaker 1 I can tell you

25:35 Speaker 2 ... become destructive?

25:36 Speaker 1 Right. Right. But, but I can tell... You know, people want to avoid this. They want to avoid having to restructure everything, so they get, "Wow, that's a big wow," but now immediately trying to fit it into everything that they know, and instead of readjusting everything-

25:52 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

25:52 Speaker 1 ... that they knew before, instead squeeze it in so it's, it's going to fit.

25:57 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

25:57 Speaker 1 When it doesn't fit, you're spinnin'- putting a, a square peg in a round hole or the other way around. So when people come to me and say, "I just read this self-help book, you know, this psycho- mo- psychology book, and it's mamish what Hasidus is saying."

26:10 Speaker 2 You don't like that?

26:12 Speaker 1 What are you doing?

26:13 Speaker 2 Okay, you're my friend now.

26:16 Speaker 1 What are you doing? You're saying-

26:17 Speaker 2 It's just the same as-

26:19 Speaker 1 It can't be.

26:20 Speaker 2 Yes.

26:21 Speaker 1 It can't be.

26:22 Speaker 2 Yes. Amen.

26:22 Speaker 1 It's like the perennialist who say, "All religions are saying the same thing."

26:26 Speaker 2 Yes.

26:26 Speaker 1 Pe- uh, what are we talking about?

26:27 Speaker 2 How is that possible?

26:29 Speaker 1 No two people are saying the same thing.

26:30 Speaker 2 Yes.

26:31 Speaker 1 "Mikol melam da'iskalti," every person who, even if they tell you the same thing, is saying something different.

26:36 Speaker 2 Right.

26:36 Speaker 1 Look at, look at the diversity instead of trying to make every... It's so easy. Everybody's saying the same thing.

26:42 Speaker 2 Yes.

26:43 Speaker 1 It's all the same thing. We've got a soul. We've gotta be spiritual. Love. No, no, look for the, the differences, not the sameness. That's what makes life exciting. What's exciting about another person is not that he's the same as me, he's different than me. That's what's interesting. You don't, you don't get married to somebody who's the same as you. What a boring life. You want somebody who does things completely differently. You know, i- if you leave the toilet seat down, she leaves it up. You know, that's something that's gonna be different.

27:11 Speaker 2 Oh, wait. Is that a thing? When you leave the toilet seat up?

27:14 Speaker 1 Or the toilet paper is round this way, around that-

27:15 Speaker 2 No, there's gotta be a menu that you leave the toilet seat up, in most cases.

27:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, stereotypes, whatever.

27:20 Speaker 2 All right.

27:21 Speaker 1 But anyways, you want some-

27:22 Speaker 2 You're a re- you're a real renegade is what you're saying.

27:26 Speaker 1 Anyways, you, you want... Ein De'ah saying Shabbos is beautiful.

27:29 Speaker 2 Right.

27:29 Speaker 1 Right?

27:29 Speaker 2 Yes.

27:30 Speaker 1 And you want, you wanna embrace that, but as soon as you say, "This is saying the same as..." No.

27:35 Speaker 2 Yes.

27:36 Speaker 1 Saying something different.

27:37 Speaker 2 Amen. Amen.

27:38 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

27:38 Speaker 2 Amen, brother. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying that that comes from the... That's almost like there's this moment of explosion, there's this moment of, of insight, what you call, chassidus calls chachmah perhaps, and instead of kind of following that light in, if, v- this, instead of being blinded by that light and following it to its, to its conclusion, you try to like s- put the genie back in the bottle and, and re-rearrange things to make yourself feel comfortable, almost like a fright.

28:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, M- Moshe is there in the, in the Midbar of Midian, and he sees this bush, right?

28:15 Speaker 2 Right.

28:16 Speaker 1 Fire, but it's burning, but it's not burning. How many people do you think passed by that bush before Moshe Rabbeinu?

28:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

28:22 Speaker 1 And they saw bushes burning.

28:23 Speaker 2 That's my, my grandfather's favorite question.

28:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So, so, but, but I could imagine that, that they come by the bush and-

28:29 Speaker 2 Yeah

28:29 Speaker 1 ... interesting. "Well, I guess I'll come back later when we'll be burned." Or, or may take a selfie, you know.

28:34 Speaker 2 Right.

28:35 Speaker 1 The tour guide comes with a bus, everybody comes out, takes pictures, gets back and, and leaves. A- and they say, "Okay, so there must be some trick, you know. There's something going on over there." Moshe Rabbeinu says, "I gotta f- this doesn't make sense."

28:47 Speaker 2 Right.

28:47 Speaker 1 "I gotta fig- you know, I gotta go and see," and it's still not making sense to me.

28:52 Speaker 2 Right.

28:52 Speaker 1 Oh, that, that, that, that's a real s- but people are afraid of that.

28:55 Speaker 2 Wow. So you're saying, I keep on saying you're saying, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, it's just a, a-

29:01 Speaker 1 It's a paraphrase.

29:02 Speaker 2 It's, it's a, it's a figure of speech that I need to, I need to, I need to improve. But the point that you made, that you're making here is that, that Moshe Rabbeinu's, like a first, first step into leadership was an acknowledgement that he didn't understand.

29:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, embracing a paradox. A- and there is a paradox over here. There is something I'm not able to solve. At least in my mind, it's a paradox. Maybe in some higher reality, it works. But for me, this is totally paradoxical, and I can handle that. I'm, I'm going to... I'm, I'm amazed by it. I'll try to figure it out, but the fact that I haven't been able to resolve it doesn't mean it, it's not the reality.

29:46 Speaker 2 But how, but how... The, the, the question I have, I'm not disagreeing at all with what you're saying.

29:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

29:52 Speaker 2 And, and I think it's, it's obvious to anybody that learns chassidus that paradox is, if there's one word that f- that, that fits chassidus as, as much as no... W- no word can, can describe chassidus, but this is the word if I had to choose one.

30:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

30:06 Speaker 2 How do... H- how... To me, the, the, the problem with paradox or the paradox of paradox to, to-

30:11 Speaker 1 Mm

30:11 Speaker 2 ... to be overly cute, is that when you become, when you become comfortable with paradox or when paradox becomes the norm, it loses its, it, it loses its, its, its grip. It loses its power, right? Like, like how do, how do you... How does chassidus stay a paradox?

30:29 Speaker 1 Com- comfort, comfort is death.

30:31 Speaker 2 Yes.

30:32 Speaker 1 The most comfortable position for any ligam- living organism is to be dead.

30:38 Speaker 2 Yes.

30:39 Speaker 1 Life means that there's a dynamo, there's two opposite poles that are struggling one against the other. That's life.

30:45 Speaker 2 Right.

30:46 Speaker 1 That's how you, you, you create an engine, how you get anything to move. You create, uh, a, a, uh, y- you disturb the equilibrium.

30:54 Speaker 2 Right.

30:55 Speaker 1 As soon as you reach equilibrium, it's gone, right? Like when we talk about marriage, that's what's beautiful about, about a marriage. It never reaches equilibrium. Never. It can't. So this is not like two pieces that fit together perfectly. They never, never fit together perfectly. You're really destroying all the idols today. Yes. So- So Basherte isn't like, uh, two hearts beating as one? That's not what you mean. Oh, man. How dull, how boring. How boring. I just... F-flashback, I, I re- I was in sixth grade, sixth grade, and I had this friend, I don't know what he-- He must've become a gangster or something. His name was Barry Marsh, I remember. And Barry Marsh is telling me, "You know, they're talking about the Aquarian Age and all this, this is the Aquarian Age." The, the, the... I don't know, it was some play on Broadway called Hair and the Aquarian Age, and it was a big deal. All the top pop singers were singing about the Aquarian Age. He says, "You know, if the Aquarian Age, everything's gonna be peaceful. Like, it's gonna be peace." Like, he says, "If there's no motorbike bombing down your road in the middle of the night, it's gonna be boring." Hmm. Yeah. It, it just stuck with me. I, I, I never-- Ha-haven't met him in, in, in, in many, many years, but- Do, do you think he, do you think he's actually a criminal, or do you think he's like a boring suburban dad? P-probably the latter. By now,

32:21 Speaker 1 maybe. Statistically, he's probably- Maybe he gave up on his dream. That's for sure, a boring boomer. He got the motorbike. It wasn't so cool. But- Yeah ... O-okay, but that life is the, uh, the struggle to take over your own life, right? It's much easier to just be the debris floating on the waves, you know, but, but just wherever the waves take you, you know. But to be alive means to make your own life, to decide where you wanna go, and to force in equilibrium over and over again, to destabilize everything at every point. Right. Not look for comfort. Comfort is like, you know, the life you go to school, you get your degree, you get the job. At sixty-five, you retire, you go fishing, and die. Uh, w-what was that all about, you know? Right. Uh, or the, "My parents did this to me, my p-teachers did this to me, so therefore I'm a victim and I can't accomplish anything, and so then it's not my fault," right? You go up to the Beis Din Shalom Malach, and they ask, "It wasn't my fault, my parents..." You know, so all for. Life means you take charge, you disturb everything, you make trouble, you, you, you, you, you, uh, destabilize things, and stuff happens. And, and maybe it'll be good. Right. You know, it's risky, but it could be good. That's, that's real life. L'shanah tovah mitov. Yeah, yeah. Right? L'shanah tovah mitov is, so this came to literally take on the very thing that

33:52 Speaker 1 w- supposedly is nature itself. Yeah. And not just the midas hatovim, but the actual nature of the middes, which that's who I am. Yeah. Now change that, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if it's, if in that how the Rabbi Shabtai told his son, told the Free Rabbi, told him that, uh, a person who's born with good middes and a good sekhol, he has a disadvantage over the person who's born with real pro- with real problems, you know. Why? Because nobody's ever gonna tell him, "Fix up your act." Right. Right. Nobody's ever gonna tell you, "You're making a mess over here. You really are, are not a nice person," maybe. It's not gonna happen. So you'll never go to the doctor. You know, uh, you'll never go to see and, and plead with this rabbi, "Tell me, tell me how am I gonna fix this?" You're never gonna cry about it. The guy who's messed up, okay, maybe he'll continue being messed up, but he's got at least a better chance that he's gonna fix something up, and he'll probably never become as nice a guy as the guy who was born a nice guy, but he'll be able to say, "I accomplished this. I did this. Okay, so I'm still a shaigitz, but I'm less of a shaigitz than before. And why? 'Cause I did it. I did it." So that, that's what's valuable is, is, is when you, when you change, and it's changing means destabilizing things. You're, you're reminding me of a story. Maybe

35:17 Speaker 1 you remember who it was with. Um, I think it was a quite famous story. There was a Hasid on his deathbed who said his whole life bas-- it could be summed up as a fight with the Yetzer Hara. The, he, he, he lands a blow on the Yetzer Hara- Mm-hmm ... or the Nesher Hamaz, I don't know what he called it. Mm-hmm. And then the Yetzer Hara lands a blow back on him. Mm-hmm. And they're in a, they're in a sparring match landing a blow. Mm-hmm. He's like, "My only wish is I land the last blow." It, it, it's a vort, right? They, the, the... You're like it- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, the f- like the, the f- like the goal isn't even to win. The goal is just to be fighting to the end. At least you're fighting. At least you're fighting. Right. No, 'cause once you win, you're dead. So you, you have to fight all the way to the end. Y-yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so Woody Allen said that he found the, uh, he found the perfect strategy for dealing with his Yetzer Hara. Uh-huh. He says, "Perfect strategy, just complete surrender." He'll say, "Marry my stepdaughter." No, no, no. We're not going there. So... Okay. Uh, uh, all, all I care really is this is my life. Uh, and I, you have to question over and over again, are you living your life or is it somebody... Is it your environment running your life? Which one? Are you your own agent?

36:43 Speaker 1 Do you have any agency here, or are you just being that large language model that's just a, a product of external circumstances, and that's it? So that, that's over and over again. So that the hascal of Hasidim and the avoda of Hasidim. Hascal of Hasidim means just breaking through down walls and questioning everything. And the way of a Hasidist is breaking down your own w- own walls, breaking down what they call the comfort zone nowadays. Even though, of course, it's not the same thing 'cause nothing ever is the same thing. But break- breaking down the, the teva means your comfort, your comfort zone.

37:21 Speaker 2 See, comfort zone is not encompassing enough like teva.

37:24 Speaker 1 There's gotta be something wrong.

37:28 Speaker 2 Uh, look, com- com- comfort zone is way too comfortable, that's for sure.

37:35 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, okay. Just, just breaking out of whatever y- whatever feels comfortable. Whatever you are, which is your teva, your regulus, and so on, that's what that chapter's about.

37:42 Speaker 2 What's, what's, what's your, what's your position on this idea called pain?

37:45 Speaker 1 Pain? Yeah, pain is good, yeah.

37:47 Speaker 2 No. Pain is good.

37:50 Speaker 1 I know I'm alive, it's just pain, yeah.

37:50 Speaker 2 No, that everyone, everyone is in pain, and therefore-

37:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, good

37:54 Speaker 2 ... no, I was just, I'm just playing.

37:55 Speaker 1 No, no, that drives people to, to do something. I mean, it could drive some people. Most p- a lot of people, it just drives them to wallow in the pain, but-

38:02 Speaker 2 Right

38:02 Speaker 1 ... but I, I had a traumatic childhood, uh, thank God.

38:06 Speaker 2 Thank God.

38:06 Speaker 1 Baruch Hashem, yeah. Um, and, uh, a lot of struggles left from that, but, but I'm sure that it, it's still driving me in ways that I wouldn't have. I w- wouldn't be, things I wouldn't be able to experience today if-

38:20 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening ten years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story, as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonialo, Torah Mesora, and Athalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. Okay, so, so, so let, let, let, let, let me, let me open this up a little bit because I think, uh, people listening to this, I mean, by now already they're, they're used to this podcast not exactly toeing the line on the mental health speak or the therapeutic mindset speak that's-

39:30 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

39:30 Speaker 2 ... pervasive today. But I wanna open it up 'cause I don't wanna be frivolous about it, right? A lot of people will say, "Okay, good for you. You look back at your traumatic childhood or whatever." Whatever you mean by traumatic childhood, something that, a childhood that was, that had its problems. You look back at it with a sentence of, uh, you, uh, you have a, I don't know if the word's positive, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but you said Baruch Hashem.

39:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

39:54 Speaker 2 Right? And they're, "Good for you," but there are many kids and many adults who are suffering from their troubled childhood, and they're suffering doubly by the fact that people tell them, "Buck up and just deal with it," right? And so that has led to this kind of, I would say, reversal of that thinking or, or swinging to the other side, where every school has its, uh, a, a team of ment- mental health experts, and just this kind of insistence that you have to take care of it. You can't just, you can't just embrace it as part of the journey. And I, I feel like besides going to, like, the question of who's right and who's wrong, I think if you go deeper than that, especially in context of this conversation, it's, it's a question of can... Is this idea of constant, like, destruction and rebirth and constant fighting and, like, sparring with, with, with, with your own demons, is that sustainable at scale? Like, you could have an individual, an individual does it. You could have a person who does it in individual moments, but is that sustainable on a communal level at scale?

41:02 Speaker 1 Okay, at first, I don't have a lot of answers over here. There are a lot of things that I don't, that I, that I, uh, I don't know, but then just make it easier so we can, uh, there, we can actually come up with something. First of all, there's a fallacy of scale, which means that just because something's true at one point on the scale and not true in another point of the scale doesn't mean that it's not true. It's true in this place.

41:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

41:25 Speaker 1 So, uh, for, for certain times of trau-- uh, people who've been through trauma, you can't apply the same things that are gonna work for other people at, at, at a, at a lesser point. So there are extreme cases, outliers, uh, uh, that, that, you know, it's just... W- so don't deal with that because that's not gonna solve problems for most of the people.

41:48 Speaker 2 Right.

41:49 Speaker 1 Right. Um, but what I can say, I wouldn't have said even a few years ago, I had a traumatic childhood, Baruch Hashem.

41:59 Speaker 2 Hmm.

42:01 Speaker 1 Um, but by this point, I think I can with some degree of honesty. A- a- and the way I look at it is similar to what the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya, that by a person who has real averos and does real teshuvah, this

42:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:24 Speaker 1 had a traumatic kayyut. Okay? So it's a . So besides looking at it as meaning, like, real sins, you can say also the trauma that a person's gone through, the pain that a person's gone through, um, can also become... He can turn them around. But you have to do something for that to happen. You have to, uh, to do something dramatic for that to happen, and it has to come from you. And it, and it's something that takes time. That's the difference with this type of teshuvah. This is a teshuvah that takes time and takes, uh, real pro- proactive work and takes something very deep inside the person. It's not, "Oh, don't, don't, don't think about it. Don't..." You can't not think about it.

43:14 Speaker 2 Hmm.

43:14 Speaker 1 It's driving you. But- When you do think about it, you gotta come head on and, and we'll be ready to, to do something about it. So, uh, the people that, that, that, uh, I, that I had to forgive.

43:33 Speaker 2 Mm.

43:34 Speaker 1 It's very hard to forgive, uh, someone, uh, my own father who ran away when I was a little kid. And, uh, I had to forgive him. That was not easy.

43:45 Speaker 2 Is he alive or just in your mind?

43:46 Speaker 1 No, he's not alive anymore.

43:47 Speaker 2 You have to forgive him in your, in your heart.

43:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, uh, I knew what he's, what he'd done-

43:54 Speaker 2 Right

43:54 Speaker 1 ... was not nice .

43:56 Speaker 2 No.

43:58 Speaker 1 Uh-

43:59 Speaker 2 And you, and you carried that till recently, is what you're saying?

44:01 Speaker 1 Fairly recently. Fairly recently.

44:04 Speaker 2 Hmm. Hmm.

44:05 Speaker 1 A teacher-- I had a teacher in, in fourth grade who was, uh, really tortured, torture. Um, 'cause I was the ADD kid who was spacing out and so on. She couldn't handle that, you know? And, uh, nightmares from that till, till I was say fifty years old, the nightmares. Until my wife told me, "You have to forgive her 'cause the, the nightmares are getting worse and worse."

44:31 Speaker 2 You had actual nightmares?

44:32 Speaker 1 Nightmares. I'm back in fourth grade again.

44:34 Speaker 2 You wake up middle of the night?

44:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:35 Speaker 2 Wow.

44:36 Speaker 1 And over and over again.

44:37 Speaker 2 Wow.

44:37 Speaker 1 I'm back in fourth grade.

44:39 Speaker 2 Wow.

44:39 Speaker 1 And my wife says to me, "Well, you have to forgive Mrs. McDonald." I sat on the edge of the bed, and I said, "Mrs. McDonald, I don't know where you are now, right now, like in which ma- which mother of Gehenna." But, uh, I understand, you know? I guess-

44:59 Speaker 2 Looking, look- looking down.

45:02 Speaker 1 You know, maybe, uh, probably s- you really wanted to be a college t- professor, and you ended up teaching fourth grade, and it was frustrating for you. And you had this kid that was, like, not towing the line and-

45:14 Speaker 2 Right

45:14 Speaker 1 ... okay, spacing out. You couldn't handle it. Okay. Why should I carry Mrs. McDonald? She's not running my life, okay? So I tell her, "I forgive you." I just had to say the words out loud. I didn't really have to feel it with all my heart. I just had to say the words out loud, and the nightmares were gone.

45:32 Speaker 2 So was this... So, so to tie-

45:34 Speaker 1 And the same thing with my father, which, which took, which took more years.

45:36 Speaker 2 Took more years.

45:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:38 Speaker 2 So to tie it back, was this, was this like, uh, you came to this recognition p- purely by age? I doubt that it's, I doubt that it's just a matter of time 'cause there are people that hold on this forever.

45:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:47 Speaker 2 But was it by age? Was it, was it by, by, like, therapy and kind of-

45:53 Speaker 1 It wasn't any therapy. It w- it w- as-

45:55 Speaker 2 Or was it-

45:55 Speaker 1 It was just at that point in life, I was ready. My wife had to tell me, "This is what you have to do." If she'd have told me ten years earlier, I wouldn't have been able to.

46:02 Speaker 2 That's what I'm asking, what changed? You, 'cause you, you work... It seems like you're connecting this to your, the way, the Hasidic mindset of, of, of constant, uh, not m- destruction and reinvention and que- Is that-- Is there a connection there?

46:18 Speaker 1 I don't know. I, I, I think that I was more confident in myself by that point, and the sense that forgiving was really, in many ways, a sense of taking charge.

46:28 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:29 Speaker 1 That I'm no longer the victim. I'm the benevolent one here who is forgiving, forgiving you. That, that turns the table around. It's no longer you doing this to me, but I am forgiving you. I think that was a very, very important part of it. And for that, I had to have a certain degree of, of self-confidence. And that's... I mean, a lot... Look, a lot of, a lot-

46:50 Speaker 2 But what I'm asking, is it a mental self-confidence? Is it a spiritual self-confidence that you're talking about?

46:55 Speaker 1 I don't know the difference.

46:57 Speaker 2 Fair. No, 'cause in the context of the conver- it came up in conversation about, about, about, um, is this something that can be scaled? It c- can, can it, can it de... The, the, or can this a- the approach of being able to say, "Thank God for the struggles of my life."

47:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, so, so, so there's gonna be some, uh, uh, people who were, you know, uh, really terribly sexually abused as children over and, you know, who know, I'm not gonna tell them.

47:26 Speaker 2 Right.

47:26 Speaker 1 You know? I'm telling what worked in, in, in my situation, which was, which was traumatic enough that I'm having nightmares in, in my fifties, you know?

47:35 Speaker 2 Right.

47:36 Speaker 1 Um, so it, it, it did have an effect. And, uh, and, and I was able to. And I, a- and it was that sense, I, I felt strong enough. I'm coming from a position of enough strength that I can forgive. But when we're weak and we think everybody's out to get us, and everybody else is ruining my life and I'm a victim, so then, then you... How? That's... I don't know that you could do that or even that it would work. I don't know. That's, that's the first thing I heard from, from, uh-

48:03 Speaker 2 But you're fitting it into this Z- Zidenis Naslak Azachias framework.

48:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. You're turning it around. I heard from Christian Schuster when he told me, you know, members of Fabrangan in Montreal, when, um, who was it who came to Mo- uh, Maraza? Was, uh, Moshe Maraza that came to Montreal.

48:21 Speaker 2 Who lived there?

48:22 Speaker 1 Who lived there. He came there from Russia.

48:23 Speaker 2 Zalman Maraza?

48:24 Speaker 1 Zalman, Zalman Maraza. Zalman Maraza was there.

48:26 Speaker 2 Yeah.

48:27 Speaker 1 And a certain Mishpacha who liked to do this was laying into a bachur. A young bachur, maybe a 50 bachur, laying into him, like they, they, they do, or at least used to do. And Zalman Maraza, Maraza stands up and says-

48:42 Speaker 2 He wasn't a Mishpacha, by the way.

48:43 Speaker 1 He wasn't. He's just come there recently from Russia. Says, "This is not the way we did in Russia."

48:48 Speaker 2 Really?

48:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. "Not the way. A young bachur is like a, a, a tree. You fatten it up, you make it bigger, you know, like a cow. You make it fatter, and when the tree is big enough, then you chop it."

49:02 Speaker 2 Beautiful.

49:03 Speaker 1 First you have to build him up.

49:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's good.

49:04 Speaker 1 First you have to build him up.

49:05 Speaker 2 That's good. That's good.

49:06 Speaker 1 So this, this, this, this something-

49:08 Speaker 2 That's good

49:08 Speaker 1 ... there's, such truth to it. The only way you can have dettol is from a position of strength.

49:15 Speaker 2 That's good. That's good.

49:16 Speaker 1 The only way you have went into Paris, Avram, uh, uh, Rab- Rabbi Lipsker-

49:24 Speaker 2 You're saying that-

49:26 Speaker 1 You can't be .

49:28 Speaker 2 A twig.

49:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's nothing, nothing there to be . Oh, it's a beautiful thing. I only found this thing. There's a memoir from the Alta Rabbi about the . So I know three different versions of the memoir. There's from the Mittal Rabbi saying it, the Rabbi Rishab, I think it's nine base, and the Rabbi says it over in the end of, uh, . So the Mittal Rabbi is talking about, you know, you can have a, a great Nishama within a fantastic Edelguf. Disaster. It's just gonna burn up-

50:03 Speaker 2 Right

50:03 Speaker 1 ... like a, a big fire in a, in a, in a, in a little wick. It's just gonna burn up.

50:07 Speaker 2 Right.

50:08 Speaker 1 You have a great Nishama and put in a Gruba Guf. Uh, that's Nimrod. You know, also c- disaster.

50:14 Speaker 2 Right.

50:14 Speaker 1 A grubah lo- niderek a neshamah in a grubaguf is the worst.

50:20 Speaker 2 Right. It's not-

50:20 Speaker 1 No, it's not. What, what hope is there?

50:22 Speaker 2 Right.

50:22 Speaker 1 You just have to break the guf so it can burn.

50:25 Speaker 2 Right.

50:26 Speaker 1 Or you can have a niderek a neshamah in an Edelguf. It's perfect. You can make tachles of birah. You can have a real birah over there 'cause the fire's not gonna just burn everything out. Just find what's good and burn out what's good and the, and the wick holds it very good. So the Mitteler Rebbe says over this maamer, and says, in the end, "Midorenu ikvis to meshiachah za grubaguf with a niderek a neshamah have to break the guf."

50:52 Speaker 2 Huh.

50:53 Speaker 1 Rebbe Shav says over the maamer, and as far as I recall, doesn't say what the, what the neshamahs are today. The Rebbe says over the maamer, this, and says, "Mikvis to the Meshiachah is a niderek a neshamah with an Edelguf."

51:11 Speaker 2 An Edelguf.

51:13 Speaker 1 And talks about the Avodah of seeing Elokus in a shlacha pratis, and a physical, in a very physical way, you know. Was different. It was different today. Just something happened to us. Uh, maybe, maybe it was the, the traumas of the mid-20th century. Something happened to, to us today that we're different, and it's taken a long time in Lubavitch to realize that this is not Russia anymore . Or, or maybe, maybe we started doing crazy things in America that we didn't even do in Russia, and I don't know.

51:49 Speaker 2 In the name of Russia, right?

51:51 Speaker 1 Yeah, in the name of Russia.

51:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:53 Speaker 1 They took the trauma to Stockholm Syndrome and they applied it to their kids.

51:57 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:57 Speaker 1 Who knows? It's hard, but b- for sure, for sure we're different and, and the etze is not the change, but to go back to the real taamtas of the Amas, find what it's really about and apply that instead of just the mimicry, mimicking.

52:15 Speaker 2 Hmm.

52:16 Speaker 1 Mimicking what you imagine to have been a Hasidish Yefu Breigan in Russia.

52:21 Speaker 2 Don't do that. Uh, that's, that's another very interesting idea of the mimicry, where it's like you're, you're mimicking ideas, you're mimicking culture.

52:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:32 Speaker 2 But, but where, where, where does that, where, where does that leave us? I mean, d- uh, does it not frighten you at all? Because what you're pointing at is, like a lot of people are scared of AI, that AI's gonna take their jobs, which, you know, a lot of jobs are, are gonna be bec- are gonna become, uh, extra. But what you're pointing at is almost the reverse, which is the scaring of AI is gonna, it's gonna force us to become original, and God knows where that's gonna take us.

53:01 Speaker 1 To be, to become human.

53:03 Speaker 2 Right. And which is ver- the opposite of most people are like, "AI's gonna make us transhuman, like we're gonna forget what it means to be human." And you're like, "We're... It, it may force us to become even more human, and in a way that's even more scary because where does that lead us?"

53:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. The, uh, the, the human being is the radical element in the universe.

53:21 Speaker 2 Right.

53:22 Speaker 1 And, uh, maybe we haven't been enough of that yet, and we'll discover that we're not being what we really are, is that radical element.

53:32 Speaker 2 So tieph that up in, in, in like, in the Hasidic context, because one of the scariest things, I mean, this is, this is more a, a thesis of mine, but I think it's quite evident that one of like the, a, a subcurrent of fear in, in Lubavitch-

53:46 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

53:46 Speaker 2 ... uh, culture, if you wanna call it that, is change is a, is first of all, it's an unknown. Where's it gonna take us? And because there's no, uh, alive rebbe at the helm who's like telling us this, that, like in, you know, like the way it used to be, where they would say, "This is what you do today, this is what you do tomorrow." If we change, are we kind of depart- departing from, from that? So change is not good.

54:15 Speaker 1 So, so a basic thesis in my mind, uh, it... It can never be certain, but this is something I, I, I feel a lot of certainty of, is that Torah, uh, Yurish Kai, is about change.

54:32 Speaker 2 Mm.

54:33 Speaker 1 It's a force of change in the world. Just as the human being is, is this force of instability, the radical element of the ro- those ra- the, the radical element of humanity is the Jew.

54:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

54:45 Speaker 1 And within, within Torah Judaism, the radical element of radical element is Chabad. It's just that real change, real change is not when you're flying in the air. Real change is when you, you have a structure beneath you. You know where you have been.

55:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

55:05 Speaker 1 And you're building on where you have been. Because if you're not building on something, you're going in circles, like most of philosophy does. Most of philosophy is just s- coming back in circles, like the Bedouins in the Sahara Desert. They're going around in circles, but it, the, the, the topography looks different because the wind has shifted the sand dunes, you know? So, so people think they're making pro... So much of the, so many things today are not progress. Be- why, and why are they not, they, they're called progress. They're not progressive. Why not? Because people don't know the past. They don't know what they're building. It's not accumulative. Progress change is only true change when it's accumulative. So Jews have a way of cra- creating accumulative progress. Halakha is a form, is a form of accumulative progress.

55:58 Speaker 2 Right.

55:59 Speaker 1 And, and, and, and the way we learn Hasidus, we Uh, the Rabbeim made what the Alter Rebbe presented us into a system where you can accumulatively progress, and that's real change. That's where there's real change in the world. So the Orthodox world in general, uh, balks at this, "Oh, we don't want change."

56:19 Speaker 2 Right.

56:19 Speaker 1 "Change is danger. No."

56:20 Speaker 2 Right.

56:20 Speaker 1 That was the whole reaction to the whole Mashiach things back in the '80s, the Orthodox world. That's-- What, what was so scary about Mashiach? It's change.

56:29 Speaker 2 Right.

56:30 Speaker 1 I mean, aside from you touting your Rebbe as Mashiach and not our... Yeah. But besides the, the ego thing behind it, was just change is, is so scary. These are people who they like being frum because they don't like change.

56:42 Speaker 2 Right.

56:43 Speaker 1 That's-- It's the frum personality.

56:45 Speaker 2 Right.

56:45 Speaker 1 Just teva, right? But Chabad is about to change teva. You go to the malamei hateva.

56:50 Speaker 2 Right.

56:51 Speaker 1 So, so we want change, but the, the change is real change. So we have so many things today that people tout as change that nothing to, nothing to do with progress at all. It's just efficiency, bureaucracy, and they call it change. But what we're, what, what, what we are doing in Chabad and Lubavitch is creating real change in the world, which is, has a lot to do with instability as well. So it's there. So we have to embrace that and know how to do it properly.

57:18 Speaker 2 But do we mean as to, as to the world's instability or creates instability?

57:22 Speaker 1 It create... In order to... Whenever there's change, there's going to be instability. You can't have it, have one without the other. But you do it in a way where you know that this is real change and it's real progress, and you're really going places.

57:33 Speaker 2 So the Rabbeim, you, you said the Rabbeim built a system, which, which I love that f- I love that framing. The Rabbeim built a system, and, and by definition, a system, I think, I think it's by definition, is it's not, it's not a canon. It's not like a closed book. The whole point of a system is that it allows for... It, it, it's a framework that, that then allows for growth, right? If, if, if you have it, if it's, if it's, if it's just-

57:57 Speaker 1 It's not a closed system.

57:59 Speaker 2 Right.

57:59 Speaker 1 It's an open system.

58:00 Speaker 2 Right.

58:01 Speaker 1 But it's a system where you can work within it and know that you are actually creating change here and not repeating the same thing, and you're building upon, uh, upon accumulated wisdom. Why do you have to reject wisdom of the past in order to progress? That doesn't make sense. Pro-progress means you're accumulating more wisdom.

58:21 Speaker 2 But this is a radical thought, I think, for, for, for Lubavitch thinking, because for, for, for decades, for generations, for, for centuries, the system was open in the sense that Rabbeim could, could advance it.

58:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, don't, don't take a look. In Tanya, the Alter Rebbe says right away, "Mipnisas HaMitzriim, Mipnei Seferim," right? So everything says, "L'kutei Ma'amim," just collecting and so on. So it, it sounds like it's saying, "I'm just gonna repeat, you know, what-"

58:47 Speaker 2 Right.

58:48 Speaker 1 Every, every, every time there's a Ma'amar Chazal or a posek brought, it's a radical new meaning to it.

58:54 Speaker 2 Right.

58:56 Speaker 1 This is not the way we understood it before, and then the Alter Rebbe, but the Alter Rebbe is showing you that, no, no, that's what he really meant. If that's what he really meant, how come nobody knew that's what... It's a totally different meaning. Yeah, but it, it, that's the true meaning. So that, that, that's a way of showing that the progress is accumulative. I'm making something new and very radical, but it's still got its roots. Radical means that you ripped it up from its roots. No. This type of radical means I'm going down to the real roots and showing you what it's really about, and you end up with something completely new.

59:29 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

59:30 Speaker 1 And that, that's true change. You know, so people get the idea that true change means rejecting the, the ancients were fools. Who was that? Um, Thomas, uh, Francis Bacon, "The ancients were fools," right? That's not progress.

59:45 Speaker 2 Right. It's also silly.

59:47 Speaker 1 Yes. You, you build on that, but you go back and say, "But what did they really mean?"

59:52 Speaker 2 Right.

59:53 Speaker 1 And, and what was their perspective on it? A-a-and, and you find deeper and deeper wisdom. It's something like an organism has to adapt to a new environment and basically looks in its DNA, and where do I have a way of dealing with this newness in my DNA? That's, that's, that's what we do. That's-

1:00:14 Speaker 2 Well, but what does Lubavitch accumulate in the past 30 years? How does Lubavi- Uh, like what are you suggesting Lubavitch has accumulated after Gimel Tammuz? Like what is there to add to this magnificent work of the seven Rabbeim? How, how do we add to that? How do we... Like and can we-- are we allowed to change that?

1:00:35 Speaker 1 W-what I remember of seven seventy, um, in the-- I w-- came in Lamed He, and, uh, so the, the, the late, the ha- second half of the Lameds and the Mems, is that the Hasidim were, were children. The Rebbe had to tell us everything. And with a busha, there's, there's no Seder, and the Rebbe's telling people to make a Seder over here. Uh, so and the, the Rebbe's taina was like those, those, those words. Even when they scream at Masa, it's only because I told them to. So I, I think that, and this is the way Rebbe Yoel explained things after Gimel Tammuz, and, and I, I feel it, it rings true, is that the tachlis is that we have to do it on our own. It has to come from us. We have to grow up, basically. And I think we've been very s-successful at that. Not completely. There's still people who are saying, you know, "HaRebbe havtiach, HaRebbe yakayem." The Rebbe was mavtiach that we will be makayem. No. So there's, there's that growing up, taking ownership, that we should take ownership of it.

1:01:59 Speaker 2 What does ownership mean? I'm trying to drill down on that. Ownership means... I mean, I, I, I'm guessing what you're gonna say. It's definitely doesn't mean mimicry of like just go, uh- Going through the motions and saying what Rebbe told us to say and saying the Sikha over again and again. Or, or, or is that what it means? It wasn't-

1:02:18 Speaker 1 For, for me personally, ownership means, um, w- uh, what resonates the most for me in Lubavitch is, is Hasidus and the, the v- vision of the Baal Shem Tov, the Shefutzu Menasseh Chachutza. And it bothers me that in my mind that hasn't happened. Everybody keeps on telling me, "Oh, no, it's all..." And I don't see the Chafetz Haim's paths connect to the avenue or even there. So to me, so therefore I have to take Sefer HaTanya and make it, uh, make it accessible. I have to take the Maimon and make them accessible, and that doesn't mean translating the words. That means making accessible. And, uh, I, I, I have to understand, I have to go deep into it and, but I have to also take the risk that I'll get it wrong.

1:03:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:03:11 Speaker 1 Because if I don't take any risks, I'm not playing any game.

1:03:15 Speaker 2 There's no ownership. There's no ownership without risk. Period. Period.

1:03:19 Speaker 1 Right. If you're playing it safe, you have not taken ownership.

1:03:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:22 Speaker 1 So, okay, so I'll burn for a few pa- uh, lines that I put in there or whatever, but, but I-I'll get something done.

1:03:29 Speaker 2 You're actually worried about burning? You're not worried about burning.

1:03:32 Speaker 1 I might, might hurt. Uh, no.

1:03:33 Speaker 2 No, you're worried about burning for doing that?

1:03:35 Speaker 1 No.

1:03:35 Speaker 2 You think like that, you think you're actually gonna be punished for making a mistake?

1:03:38 Speaker 1 Actually, they'll find much bigger things than that.

1:03:41 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

1:03:42 Speaker 1 There's much, much bigger things. In the Behemas, the, this is how the Tzemach Tzedek explains, uh, what, what's the answer in Tanya? Is this the answer gets lost, You say the, the K word, the, you know the K word, the Kabbalah soul.

1:07:59 Speaker 2 I haven't said that word for a long time, but yeah.

1:08:03 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't think there's any, any, uh, term that's been so abused-

1:08:09 Speaker 2 Well, it's a good way of getting Bohm in, in line

1:08:11 Speaker 1 In line, yes. You're running an institution, and, uh, you need everybody to be in line. It'd be so much easier, so much more efficient, as everybody is doing the same thing.

1:08:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, if it could turn them into sheep, like that-

1:08:23 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like-

1:08:23 Speaker 2 Like that movie in Pinocchio

1:08:24 Speaker 1 So you tell them, "Look, it says in Hasidus you have to do what I say."

1:08:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:29 Speaker 1 Um, there is no why, you know. It says the principle with, uh, you come into his, his, his office, sent into his office, and he says, "Look at the alphabet up there. What's missing?" A, B, C, D... X, Z. "Y." There is no why. Okay, so that becomes Kabbalah soul and Malchus Shamayim, and you just degraded the whole Hasidus, that that's Kabbal-- what Kabbalah soul is. Yeah, I mean, look, a, a, a kid has to know to respect his father, you know. And, and the Talmud has to know to respect the Mishbir. It bugs me to no end wh- that in Lubavitch you don't stand up when the Rosh Yeshiva comes in. I think it's a navela. Um-

1:09:18 Speaker 2 Be-because why? 'Cause, 'cause-

1:09:19 Speaker 1 And you didn't call them by their first name and those things

1:09:21 Speaker 2 'Cause it doesn't seem-

1:09:21 Speaker 1 It doesn't make any sense to me. I think it comes from communist Russia, comrade type of thing.

1:09:26 Speaker 2 Really?

1:09:26 Speaker 1 That's what I think, yeah. But, uh, but-

1:09:29 Speaker 2 Interesting

1:09:29 Speaker 1 ... but, uh, that's my theory, okay.

1:09:31 Speaker 2 No, no, fair.

1:09:32 Speaker 1 But, but, uh, I don't think that Kabbalah soul means be a robot and just do as I say. I don't think that's Kabbalah soul. Kabbalah soul means you have a job to do.

1:09:45 Speaker 2 Are you allowed to have, are you allowed to have a question on what the Rebbe says? Like, it, it, this is going back to... I'm not just trying to trap you, but in the conversation you're talking about, like, you only begin to understand when you're not mimicking, when you have a question. Are you allowed to question what the Rebbe says? And say, like, this-

1:10:03 Speaker 1 The que- question in English sense has two different meanings.

1:10:06 Speaker 2 You're allowed to say, "This doesn't make sense to me."

1:10:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course, you have to say that.

1:10:10 Speaker 2 But like-

1:10:10 Speaker 1 You're not learning until you say it just doesn't make sense to me.

1:10:13 Speaker 2 The-- or like the-- what, what's being said here doesn't feel right to me.

1:10:16 Speaker 1 Yes, that's it.

1:10:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:52 Speaker 1 That, that's it. So, so if the Rebbe says something, and, uh, Lamashol, okay, I'm coming from a, from a secular education background, and the Rebbe says the-- when it says the world is five thousand seven hundred and eighty-five years old, it, it means literally that. Okay, that's-- i-immediately I'm supposed to say, "Okay, that's it. I understand." I don't understand. I have to go about learning and, and understanding. I have to... It has to, it has to make sense to me. Am I going to say, "Well, obviously, uh, that's not correct"? No, I'm not gonna say not, not correct. It just means I don't understand.

1:11:31 Speaker 2 How, how you-- how do you live, though? I mean, I-- that's a, that's a bit extreme way to put it, but how do you manage tho- those kind of questions with the devoutness of, of being a Hasid? Doesn't, doesn't-

1:11:45 Speaker 1 You have some-- You have the humility to say, "So I don't understand. There are a lot of things I don't understand."

1:11:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:53 Speaker 1 I heard it several times, the Rebbe, such a bit to it.

1:11:58 Speaker 2 The Rebbe himself.

1:12:00 Speaker 1 Himself. So it's another thing I don't understand.

1:12:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:05 Speaker 1 Okay. You, you have to be able to live with understanding that there are things you don't understand.

1:12:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:10 Speaker 1 That's, that's

1:12:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:13 Speaker 1 Only a, only a, a pinhead has to-- everything has to make sense.

1:12:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:12:18 Speaker 1 No, there are things in the world I don't understand. I see a, a, a, a, a Seven Forty-Seven flying in the air with two hundred people in it, and it's flying in the air. You tell me I understand it? Still doesn't make any sense to me. It's in the air. What's it doing up there? That makes no sense. But it's happening. Okay.

1:12:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:35 Speaker 1 It's happening. So a, a lot of things like that, I don't understand. Do I understand how I put a little seed in the ground and it comes up in big trees over there? And they tell me, "What's the tree made of?" You know what trees are made of? You ever, you ever look into this? What is a tree made of? When you plant a seed in the ground and it, uh, seedling, and you get a big, big tree out of it, is there less earth over there? What's the tree made of?

1:12:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:57 Speaker 1 You know what it's made of? It's made out of the carbon dioxide in the air-

1:13:02 Speaker 2 Hmm

1:13:02 Speaker 1 ... which is something like point zero two percent of the air or something like that.

1:13:06 Speaker 2 Well, the so-

1:13:07 Speaker 1 It's made out of thin air.

1:13:08 Speaker 2 The soil swallows up the air?

1:13:09 Speaker 1 No, no. The tree is photosynthesizing carbon out of the air, and that's becoming a tree. Now, I'm looking at this tree-

1:13:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, but what, what's the-

1:13:16 Speaker 1 I think it's made of carbon in the air. It makes no sense to me. That's ridiculous.

1:13:21 Speaker 2 How does it start? How does it start?

1:13:24 Speaker 1 I'm telling you, the whole thing from beginning to end is, is like totally... And anything in the world-

1:13:28 Speaker 2 So

1:13:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:13:31 Speaker 2 It's legit. Science doesn't have s- Science doesn't have a better explanation, is what you're saying.

1:13:36 Speaker 1 There's all sorts of things that have no, like... The, the scientists, you know, the mimicry, uh, uh, of, of the academic world, like-

1:13:44 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:13:44 Speaker 1 ... everything we-- we're explaining everything. What's... And when you ta-- start taking it apart, you didn't explain a thing. You just described what's going on. But what's going on? That doesn't make sense.

1:13:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:55 Speaker 1 How can it be? You know, uh, uh, one cell becomes an entire human being. And you're gonna tell me this makes sense.

1:14:02 Speaker 2 Well-

1:14:03 Speaker 1 And it's thinking and has its own agency, and it is doing, it has a will, and it, and its consciousness and... You didn't explain anything. You're describing all sorts of things. You're not explaining. So, so, now, and so how-- applies over here. So the Rebbe said something, and, uh, and he belie-believes it. And look, he's smarter than me. I c- I can't ar-argue with that. He's smarter than me. So I don't understand. That means he's wrong, 'cause I don't understand means he's wrong? I'll figure it out. So I remember, you know, there were questions I had.

1:14:36 Speaker 2 How do you know he's smarter? How do you know that-

1:14:37 Speaker 1 Questions I had for forty years. Forty years. Q-- A-and, and then after forty years or more, let's just say forty years, oh, I found the answer to it. Or things that I thought were right, this, this is what's true, and then fifty years long-- later you find out I was totally wrong.

1:14:57 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:14:58 Speaker 1 You believe it for fifty years, thought this is the way it is, and you find that somebody points out to you, "I got it wrong." I was so certain. I said, "We change our minds all the time."

1:15:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:08 Speaker 1 "So why can't I be wrong?" Is there something terrible about that, uh-

1:15:13 Speaker 2 No

1:15:13 Speaker 1 ... I understood it wrong, you know?

1:15:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh, Rabbi Shol Friedman, and I usually said we shouldn't use his first name, but, uh, what can I do? Uh

1:15:21 Speaker 1 No, your first name is awesome, you said Rabbi, you know.

1:15:23 Speaker 2 Rabbi Shol Friedman.

1:15:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:24 Speaker 2 Um, yeah, special Jew.

1:15:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:26 Speaker 2 Um, so he, he used to hazard over the story very, very often with a line from the Hasid of Isser Hummler, who said about the Rebbe, "He's simply kluger for me. He's just smart- ... he's smarter than me." Like, that's enough of a reason. And, and, like, uh, his point was always like, sometimes we jump to, like, the, the, the spiritual halakhite and, like, this and the miracles. It's like you don't even need that. Like, the, the... But, but to me, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Achilles heel of that argument is that that can itself be mimicked, where, like, every single bucker without even thinking about it just says, "Oh, of course Rebbe's smarter than me." And it's like, I think you have to, you have to kind of test that also, right? 'Cause if, if you're just as... If you're just accepting Rebbe's smarter than you, yeah, I mean, chances are he is, right? Chances are he is, but I feel like if you just accept that without, without, like, without basically, um, proving it to yourself-

1:16:30 Speaker 1 It is very hard to do with the Rebbe.

1:16:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:16:33 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, personally, the first time I saw was, uh, the Mirker Shtotchim came to my hometown, and they've got this book, and there's pictures of the Rebbe, and I just saw a picture of the Rebbe, and that was it for me.

1:16:48 Speaker 2 This is before you came to Lubavitch?

1:16:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, and my, I remember my father says to me, "What are you... You're an anarchist. You're a radical. You, you don't accept anybody. You laugh at everybody. Well, how come all of a sudden you're, you're..." I said, "He's different. He's different."

1:17:02 Speaker 2 How old are you?

1:17:03 Speaker 1 Uh, I guess I was 18.

1:17:07 Speaker 2 Okay, so you're already, you're already pretty formed in your anarchist thinking.

1:17:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. From, from 15 years old, uh, already. So but this is different. This is different. So but then, um, Baruch Ha... Like Baruch Hashem again. So they had, uh, people in our town who'd just cool me off, you know. "Don't become a fanatic. Don't become this," you know. Orthodox Jews.

1:17:36 Speaker 2 Where did you grow up?

1:17:37 Speaker 1 Vancouver, British Columbia. And so by the time I came to, to Seven Seventy, I was, I was cooled off. But still, you can't help but fall in love with the Rebbe. It's very hard not to. A-a-and, um-

1:17:52 Speaker 2 But you don't, you don't think, you don't think, especially today, when you're not having... You don't think that people really need to ask themselves. I don't know, maybe some people listening to this are like, "Oh, you see absence off his mind. Of course Rebbe's smarter than..." I just feel that of, that of course, even if it's true, it, it kind of undercuts your entire argument. Like, we cannot question everything besides this one thing. We cannot question God and everything about God and everything about faith and everything about the purpose of the world and everything, but the one thing that we cannot question is Rebbe's brilliance. I've, I've-

1:18:25 Speaker 1 Okay. You have a chazakah, emunah.

1:18:28 Speaker 2 But you wouldn't say that about God, would you?

1:18:33 Speaker 1 I-I-I... You know, it's a, it's a different type of relationship. Uh, uh, the relationship a, a Jew has with God or a Jew has with a tzadik. Like a friend of mine was a philosopher, uh, professor of philosophy. A-and he said, "A Jew, when a Jew questions, it's like somebody who's been married for, for, for 80 years to the same woman and now questioning, 'Why did I marry, ever marry this lady?' You know? It's a different kind of question at this point. You're married. The grandchildren are there, you know. You're married."

1:19:12 Speaker 2 You don't-

1:19:13 Speaker 1 This is, this is. You're, you're in. You know, when, when a Jew questions Torah, when a Jew questions God, it's like the biggest Jewish atheist has really more emunah, more connection than, than the goy who's a mammon because he's married. He's, he's in this. He can't get... You know about the story that, that this family move into a, into a upscale neighborhood, send their kids to a good private school, happens to be Roman Catholic, but it's the best school academically. Gets to December, the kid's coming home, and he's singing all these Christmas carols, right? And the father can't take it, can't take it. Fin- can't take it. Finally says to the kid, "Listen, kid, stop singing those carols. You have to know we're Jews." "There's only one God, and we don't believe in him."

1:20:07 Speaker 2 It, it reminds me of a great story in Hong Kong with my... That my father would tell us. There was this, there was this kid that came from Israel. They had a lot of Israelis that moved to Hong Kong. And the kid's bris name in Israel, they s-

1:20:20 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:20:20 Speaker 2 ... you know, they give a traditional name was Moshe.

1:20:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:22 Speaker 2 But his parents gave a modern Hebrew name.

1:20:25 Speaker 1 Moran. Yeah, whatever.

1:20:25 Speaker 2 Moran.

1:20:26 Speaker 1 Moran.

1:20:27 Speaker 2 Moran.

1:20:27 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:20:28 Speaker 2 He comes to Hong Kong.

1:20:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:30 Speaker 2 And the teacher introduces him to a bunch of Western English-speaking kids. "Hey, students, we have a new student. Na- his name is Moran." And the kids are, "Moron?" You know, you can imagine. "No, no, no, no, my name is Moshe over here." Yes. No, but, but, but-

1:20:47 Speaker 1 That's okay. Take it seriously. Take it seriously.

1:20:49 Speaker 2 But you don't-

1:20:49 Speaker 1 What's the connection to the... You'd have-

1:20:50 Speaker 2 But you don't feel that a Lubavitcher needs to ask about that connection, too?

1:20:55 Speaker 1 Okay, so okay. I, I, I, I'm learning the Rebbe's maamar. Uh, the first time I learned with, uh, Rafael Minkowitz came to Vancouver, and he learned with me Rebbe's sichos. And I remember looking up at him and saying, "I thought you guys are not allowed to ask questions like these."

1:21:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:14 Speaker 1 Uh, but, uh, and it just swept me away. The, the sechel of the whole thing was so beautiful. It just swept me away. Uh, the mamarim I've been learning for years and years, going over the same mamarim over and over again. I, I, I can't approach this kind of sechel. I see this is real sechel. This is like... I, I read, you know, I got my library here, lots of academic works and everything. There's no sechel like this. This is the real sechel. You know, my father-in-law, the Shalal-

1:21:45 Speaker 2 But one second, but you, but you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're coming from a place where you chose this.

1:21:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:21:50 Speaker 2 So, so there, there was a choice made.

1:21:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:21:53 Speaker 2 If, if you were born into it-

1:21:54 Speaker 1 No, actually not. No. Uh, at first, initially it wasn't a choice. Initially, initially, uh, I just felt swept in. I-

1:22:05 Speaker 2 But did you-

1:22:06 Speaker 1 I had to, at a certain point, like I said, had to, at a certain point, step back and say-

1:22:10 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Yeah

1:22:10 Speaker 1 ... "Why? Why? Why?"

1:22:11 Speaker 2 Okay. So that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. I, I feel like, just, just, just drawing on what you've been talking about here, is that the mi- the, the, the anti-mimicry screed, which resonates with me deeply-

1:22:24 Speaker 1 Mm

1:22:25 Speaker 2 ... it feels like you just have to, it has to extend all the way. And it feels like that sometimes people will be like, "Okay, we question everything, but the one thing you can't question is that the Rebbe has all the answers."

1:22:36 Speaker 1 N- I wouldn't see, even put it that way. I don't see it as the Rebbe has all the answers. Uh, uh, uh, a- a- and in general, I don't think you can look at it that way. You have to find the answers that work for you.

1:22:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:22:50 Speaker 1 E- even if you're going to read, here's the question, here's the answer, maybe it's not your answer.

1:22:56 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:22:57 Speaker 1 It's not gonna work for you. I think, uh, uh, Manus, Manus Friedman, he had this idea that he's gonna write a book where they'll get together different mishpachim, they're gonna make a book of here's the questions, here's the answers. It's not gonna work.

1:23:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:11 Speaker 1 As I remember, the Rebbe nixed the idea.

1:23:13 Speaker 2 Oh, he had this idea back in the day.

1:23:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't work.

1:23:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:17 Speaker 1 The answer's only a good answer when you found that answer.

1:23:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:21 Speaker 1 A- a- and, uh, so here's the place to dig. Here's your yesodis, here's firm, firm pegs in the ground for you to work with, because you're going to start with some assumptions, and you won't even know what your assumptions are.

1:23:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:36 Speaker 1 And that's, that's the, our biggest, our biggest, um, stumbling block when trying to think, is we don't realize what assumptions we're making. So here are some good foundations within Tanya, uh, uh, within the Rebbe's sichas, some good foundations to start with. Yeah, a lot of them you have to question also and see, but you've got some ground to start on over here for your thinking. You can't think out of thin air. You won't think out of thin air.

1:24:06 Speaker 2 So it's a foundation. Eretz Chemed, I think, uh, sichas talks about, right? That like the reason why only a Yid can do a mitzvah is because they are fertile soil for the mitzvah.

1:24:15 Speaker 1 So here the idea is-

1:24:16 Speaker 2 The same thing as the Torah

1:24:17 Speaker 1 ... you're infertile soil-

1:24:18 Speaker 2 The Torah soil

1:24:18 Speaker 1 ... for, for, for thinking.

1:24:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:20 Speaker 1 For thinking. I see it with a lot of ideas. You read a, uh, a book, you know, uh, the per- the, the, he's a, a philosopher, a thinker, a psychologist, whatever, whatever, and he's coming to these conclusions. You say, "But what are his assumptions?" He himself doesn't realize that he's making these assumptions.

1:24:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:40 Speaker 1 And he just considers this is scientific. Why is it scientific? It's an assumption. There's no empirical evidence for it.

1:24:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:46 Speaker 1 This happens over and over again. We fool ourselves-

1:24:48 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:24:49 Speaker 1 ... so easily with this. So, but we're going to have assumptions.

1:24:52 Speaker 2 The, the physical I was just learning on Maimon, he was talking about the difference... He, he, it was, it was, it was like, to me, it struck me, wow, this is a really provocative statement, but it's exactly what you're saying. He says the difference between the sechel of Torah and the sechel of everything else is that the sechel of Torah is sechel al kiyn sechel atzmi. It starts from itself.

1:25:13 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:25:13 Speaker 2 Whereas everything else, sechel al nikneh. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's based on something else, and you, like you're saying, it c- it's based on something that you can't even-

1:25:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:25:22 Speaker 2 ... you can't even account for.

1:25:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Sechel al nikneh. There's also comes in animals, sechel al nikneh, which is probably the same as mimicry.

1:25:32 Speaker 2 Oh, that's interesting.

1:25:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:25:33 Speaker 2 It's a mimicry thing.

1:25:34 Speaker 1 Nikneh. Yeah. So, uh, s- um, the, the... Can you question, can you say, "Well, maybe there was a mistake over here. Maybe he got it wrong. Um, m- uh, maybe Chazal made a mistake." You know, the Rebbe's approach, the Rebbe's father's approach is that if this is what Klal Yisrael have accepted, so it's Torah.

1:26:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:02 Speaker 1 This is what we're working with. What is truth? I mean, how do you define what's true and what's not true to begin with? I'm getting like beyond my pay grade. What is truth, you know?

1:26:15 Speaker 2 No, you write quite a bit about this, frankly. It seems like this is precisely your pay grade. I mean, I hope they pay you for what, for your writing.

1:26:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. What is truth? Truth is what works.

1:26:26 Speaker 2 Right. That, uh, that's a-

1:26:27 Speaker 1 For me.

1:26:29 Speaker 2 That's a... Well, it, there's something profound about that, right? Where like, if it's not true, it's gonna collapse at some point.

1:26:35 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:26:35 Speaker 2 Right? It's just, it's gonna fail.

1:26:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:26:37 Speaker 2 Right? Like they say about the Soviet Union, like eventually the buildings just started tumbling down. Like the lies literally and physically collapsed.

1:26:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. Emet, eretz tzmach.

1:26:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:47 Speaker 1 It means w- the real test ground for truth is in real life, is it working? But if it doesn't have a... If, if nobody else ever came up with, uh, with such an idea, you're gonna have to really question. There no f- no fertile ground for this idea, and you're gonna try it out and sell it, you know? I don't know. I don't think that's, that's a way to go. You wanna find something that is No, you, you'll have no starting point. You're shoveling in the air. But you can, you can ask if this understanding that's been presented to me, have I understood this understanding? Or did the people who taught it to me, did they understand? C- uh, I have to go deeper and understand it deeper. And sometimes you come up to the opposite of, of what everybody thought it was. Maybe that's the idea that all the That ultimately- Mm ... you, there has to be a starting point that it's not mimicry and it's from me. So to, to, to wrap it up. Yeah. Unless you wanted to finish a thought here. Um, I think it, it's s- it, it's would be silly to go about thinking, making conclusions saying, "But I'm going to ignore what everybody thought before me." Uh, it's just silly. Yes. And when you're talking about here's an Mm. The fact that Jews are here today shows, hey, we're onto something, you know? So if you're on the spaceship and it's been traveling for three and a

1:28:57 Speaker 1 half thousand years, and you're way out there in space, and they say, "You know what? I think the engine's built all wrong." So you, you're gonna have to have a lot of very, very good proof before you can start changing that- Yeah ... 'cause it got you this far. Yes, yes. So, and it did, and it's not just we're here. We've changed the world 'cause the, the, the good values in the world today, uh, come from the Jews. We really had a, a, a huge impact on the world in a very good way, a positive way. So there must be something good over here. I, I, I'm not gonna go down into the belly of the ship and start- Tinkering ... uh, mixing it up with. Tinkering. But what I can do is try to figure out why does it work? Right. What's going on over here? Uh, that, that's, that's... A- and how can we get it to work even better? Yeah. It, you, it's probably not a good idea to drill holes at the bottom of the ship just for the sake of- Trying that out ... yeah, like, like experimentation. Yeah. W- w- in the '70s, um, we were experimenting with education. Everybody wanted to try experiments. Right. They did radical things with education. Let's say everywhere, everything was done wrong until now. We're gonna do it, uh, all upside down. And it was stupid. It was totally messed up. Yeah. Totally messed up. Um, a- and a lot of things w-

1:30:20 Speaker 1 today, all of a sudden, a man and a woman is the same thing. What? Yeah, that's progress. So that's not progress. That's just the way the machines want us to be. The machines like us... It's too, too much complication if there's two different genders over here. Let's make them one gender. Everything will be half as, half as, as complicated, you know? Right. That's not called progress. We think it's progress. It's drilling holes in the bottom of the ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so let, let, let's wrap it up. Yeah. We started off with the question of bitul, and you said it's self-transcendence. I don't think I gave you a chance to explain that. No, I didn't explain a thing about that, huh. Do you wanna explain it? I wrote about it. There's an article on what- There we go ... what is bitul, so you can just read that. Uh. Okay. Uh. But, but in the context of this, in the context of this conversation, you talked about how the goal is to break down assumptions, uh, to, to, to basically completely annihilate mimicry, right? Or, or to, or to challe- Put it in place at least ... put a place or challenge, confront mimicry. Yeah. D- doesn't that have something to do with your notion of self-transcendence? I, um, I have to think about that. Yeah. I have to think about that. Does it take bitul to have real sechel? Well, the reason Mm-hmm ... follow Beis Hillel and not Beis Shammai is 'cause

1:31:38 Speaker 1 the, the bitul. So real sechel, real chochmah, chochmah is bitul. So you have to transcend yourself. And real sechel, real sechel is the transcendence of self. And learning, learning means to transcend yourself. Learning means I didn't know this before. Everything that I had, that I had assumed was without this knowledge, and now I change everything. And that, that, um, not just proclivity, but, but capacity for change comes from a place of bitul. So chochmah is bitul. So learning is bitul. Intelligence is bitul. And to be human means to have that, that bitul and grow. Radical change. So, so yeah, it's all one package. That's nice. It's elegant. Radical change is a good way to wrap this up. Thank you very much for doing this. Thanks. It's been a lot of fun. This has been a thrill. Yes. Thank you. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bahar, and is used with their permission.