Ep. 53 // "Writing the Messy Divine" w/ Poet Yehoshua November

00:00 Speaker 1 You have the high-minded Hasidic idea, or you have Elokus, and it's transcendent and spiritual. But what does it look like in your messy experi- human experience? And that, a-a-and that way, I think sometimes poetry could be a documentation, a recording of the diy y'mitav tonim. Poetry does speak about personal things or does speak about potentially embarrassing things. Um, that's true. But my feeling is, is that that's the taklin sh'ein taklin lamav ti'meina. That is the ultimate low, those embarrassing or difficult moments, and to persevere through them, um, is the, is to make the diy y'mitav tonim. You know, th-there's been times where some people said, "Why don't you work on translation to the Friediker Basuchas?" And, and and I asked my mashpia, and they said, "No, you have to go much farther down."

01:00 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Yafson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Alrighty. We are here, we are here on this wonderful winter afternoon in Teaneck, New Jersey, with an all-time acquaintance and friend and, uh, in many ways, a mentor. Um, do... Rabbi? How do you go by? Just-

01:36 Speaker 1 Yeshua

01:36 Speaker 2 ... just plain Yeshua, Yeshua November, who is, uh, who is a, is well known as a poet, uh, a published poet. S- has, uh, released, I think now three collections of, of poetry. And, um, you know, uh, I'm not gonna say that I'm a big-time connoisseur of poetry, but, uh, I've read, I've, I've read quite a bit, I would s- I would say, at least relative to most Yeshiva boys, I think. Uh, definitely, you know, especially the k- the more kind of modern, free-flowing poetry, and it's, it's really ni- it was really nice when, when I first came across your poetry to see someone who was, um, you know, really using literature to the best of their ability and in a very beautiful and heartfelt, touching way, but talking about things that meant something to me personally. Like, I could see myself in a lot of them. You know, maybe, maybe not in the tattoo in the mikvah, but, you know, other... Many of them, you know, many of them were like, "Oh, I could, I could see myself in that." And, you know, very often, very often I, I, I, I personally don't find that, you know, poetry written by... I think there was one that you recommended to me, Adam Zagajewski, a wonderful Polish poet. Um, you know, wonderful poetry, but most of it has nothing to do, you know, in a personal way with, with my life. Anyway, so, um, thank you very much for, for coming on the, on the pod.

03:10 Speaker 2 Um, a few, few, uh, quite a few listeners have actually asked me to have you on, and so I'm glad that we could make it work. Uh-

03:16 Speaker 1 Thank you. It's a pleasure.

03:17 Speaker 2 So before we go further, just wanna ask everyone, um, I've always, I always, always forget to do this, so we may as well start at this point, 50-some p- ep-episodes in. But if you're listening or watching on YouTube or Spotify, please subscribe, and, uh, you know, pl- or please follow. And if, if you're up to it or you've been thinking about it, please, uh, go to the website hflpodcast.com/donate to help support this podcast. All right. Why don't, why don't we begin with, with, uh, a little bit of background, who you are and, uh, where, where do you come from, sir?

03:57 Speaker 1 Where do I come from? That's a, it's a long and winding path. Um, well, I was born in Miami Beach, Florida, which I think contributed to my fashion sense. Um, but, uh-

04:10 Speaker 2 The sweaters?

04:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I'm just joking. But, uh, um, uh, my family moved around a lot. Um, I was born in Miami Beach. My father was in residency there. Uh, and then soon after, we moved to Richmond, Virginia, Kansas City, Scranton, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, and it was only later after I was married actually that my father joined the military.

04:35 Speaker 2 Yeah, so why did you move around so long?

04:37 Speaker 1 Well, well, so my father, uh, was an OBGYN, and so part of the time he was in residency, medical school, and then really he, he was looking for, him and my mother were looking for the ideal kind of Jewish community, Jewish education. He grew up in, in Brooklyn, um, pretty traditionally. Uh, my mother a little bit less so in, in Pittsburgh she grew up. So they got married right after college, and they kind of were on a journey, and, uh, they were never, I guess, completely satisfied whe-wherever we were, uh, especially e-educationally. So we were kind of moving around from place to place. Um, and then, um, and I, I myself, uh, I would say, uh, went to various different kinds of, uh, educational institutions.

05:26 Speaker 2 Right.

05:26 Speaker 1 So, for example, uh, you know, when we were in Scranton, that was a kind of like a, a Lakewood satellite community.

05:32 Speaker 2 Sure.

05:33 Speaker 1 And that was to the Scranton Hebrew Day School, and then we moved to Minnesota. It was more of a kind of like co-ed school, Jewish school, Torah Academy. And then-

05:42 Speaker 2 So you were really moving each community just in search of a school.

05:46 Speaker 1 School and jobs for, for my father. Um, and then we moved to Pittsburgh. I went to a, a school called Hillel, like a kind of modern Orthodox school. And then I went for one year, I didn't quite make it the whole year, to Chabad Chaim Yeshiva in Rochester.

05:59 Speaker 2 Okay.

06:00 Speaker 1 Then from there, I came back and went to public school the last, like, two and a half years. Then I went to Yeshivat HaKotel. It was like a modern Orthodox, uh, yeshiva in Israel. Then I went to, uh, Binghamton University, uh, where, um, I became close with the Slonims.

06:16 Speaker 2 Sure.

06:16 Speaker 1 The mashgiachim there. Uh, and I met my wife there, um-

06:21 Speaker 2 In Binghamton?

06:22 Speaker 1 In Binghamton. We-- Actually, the first Shabbos, the Chabad house, we sat next to each other, across from each other. Um, and, uh, then we got married right after college, and I, uh, we moved back to Pittsburgh, and I pursued an MFA in creative writing, Master of Fine Arts in Poetry graduate school, and my wife was in graduate school for social work. Um, and at that time, um, we tried to go, when we moved to Pittsburgh, to kind of like the regular Orthodox shuls, but it just didn't speak to us or resonate very much, I guess, coming from the Chabad house in Binghamton. Uh, so we started to go to the Chabad shul in, in Pittsburgh, and that was probably my first serious encounter with like learning Chassidus.

07:11 Speaker 2 Oh, not Binghamton?

07:13 Speaker 1 Binghamton a little bit, but not, not so, not so intensely there. Uh, although I was, you know, very close with the Slonims. Um, every Shabbos, every, you know, morning we'd go to shul there.

07:24 Speaker 2 Right.

07:25 Speaker 1 Um, but really learning Chassidus, I would say, more in Pittsburgh. And simultaneously, I was, uh, in graduate school, um, which were two very different worlds.

07:36 Speaker 2 Oh, very interesting.

07:36 Speaker 1 Um, and in... When I was an undergrad in Binghamton, I studied under several professors who were very encouraging and warm and supportive, and some of them even came to our wedding, right? They traveled down from Binghamton to Brooklyn to go to our wed- to our wedding, my wife and I's wedding. Um, and then graduate school was f- felt like a kind of different atmosphere. It was a little bit more competitive. It was smaller, uh, and I really kind of encountered more of the literary life, like people going to bars all the time, all my, my classmates and, um, living with the literary culture, uh, a-and-

08:18 Speaker 2 A lot of cigarettes.

08:18 Speaker 1 A lot of... Yeah. A-and I didn't... And I was just gotten married. Um, I didn't feel quite at home, uh, in the, in that environment. Um, although I had some really, uh, great teachers. One of my teachers is, uh, one of the most famous contemporary American poets. Her name is Toni Hoagland, passed away recently. Um, but I had certain negative encounters. There were some conflicts about Israel. Professors were kind of anti-Israel. Um, one professor asked us to write a poem, an anti-Israel poem. And, and I, and I kind of got in a disagreement with him, um, and he kicked me out of his office, and it's just a very small program, so it was kind of uncomfortable. But a-at the same time, uh, as I was having those experiences of writing poetry and not quite fitting in in graduate school, I, I encountered Chassidus, um, and I became more and more engrossed in it, in the, in the stories and in learning Chassidus. I remember actually that we had like a small little-

09:19 Speaker 2 What did it mean for you to... Sorry.

09:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, go ahead.

09:22 Speaker 2 What did it mean for you to, to like encounter Chassidus? Like, 'cause it, 'cause it sounds like you had a bit of a yeshiva background.

09:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:30 Speaker 2 You had learned Gemara before.

09:31 Speaker 1 Right. Right. So-

09:32 Speaker 2 So you were starting off with like, like, like Chassidus essays online, like English interpretations, or you were straight at the text? Like what did that look like?

09:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, there were shiurim, and Pittsburgh is, is a pretty relatively large Chabad community.

09:45 Speaker 2 Right.

09:46 Speaker 1 So there were shiurim. I was learning with people. Rabbi Roth... My wife and I learned Tanya with Rabbi Rothman. Um, I learned with Rabbi Deren on Shabbos morning. Um, there were a lot of shiurim and, and I was doing like mashgiach work, and I was hanging out a lot with Rabbi Itkin, who passed away, alav hashalom.

10:04 Speaker 2 Sure.

10:04 Speaker 1 And he was really, uh, a great person to spend time with, just to be in his, uh, to, to be in his company was kind of a, uh, a-

10:12 Speaker 2 Character

10:12 Speaker 1 ... an education in, in, in what it means to be a Chassid itself.

10:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

10:15 Speaker 1 Um, but, but I, I, I, I remember distinctly, um, we had like a small basement apartment in Pittsburgh, and I was learning Tanya, uh, probably like a translation or something like that, and I just remember distinctly learning this idea that, um, that, uh, that Hashem, that the creation comes about through Hashem's, uh, speech, His constant speech, uh, recreating the world, Uh, and I remember hearing that concept and thinking that there's, that there's a devar Avot, there's the, the divine speech is invested in each item in creation. And I kind of remember like looking around and feeling a little bit dizzy because it was just so disorienting to me. It was so foreign, uh, relative to what I had ever learned before. I, I, I always thought of, um, there being, uh, you know, God, a transcendent, distant God, and then there's the physical world with its own solid, independent mass.

11:19 Speaker 2 Right.

11:20 Speaker 1 And the two really are, are not interconnected in any kind of meaningful way, uh, and definitely not one.

11:27 Speaker 2 Right.

11:27 Speaker 1 So, so I remember learning that concept and just feeling very... L-literally actually feeling kind of dizzy, like the, like the apartment was spinning a little bit. Um, a-and I, I wouldn't consider myself a mystical person, but I, I remember having that sensation. Um, I, I think that the Judaism-

11:43 Speaker 2 Who, who were you learning it with? By yourself?

11:45 Speaker 1 I was just learning by myself. Um, I think that the, the Judaism that I had known up until that point was largely Judaism that seemed almost like a video game to me. Like, where there's the idea that you, you know, do as many mitzvahs as you can, learn as much Torah, then you get, you get, you get a great seat in heaven. It almost sound like a video game, like you get extra lives, and you, and you-

12:07 Speaker 2 Right

12:07 Speaker 1 ... you amass points. Um, and if you're good at playing the video game, then there'll be this kind of, um- Delayed gratification, reward.

12:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

12:17 Speaker 1 Um, s-so that really kind of made Judaism for me, um... I, I think I've always believed, you know, I believed in the Torah from Sinai, Revit Havrash, Learn the Gemara, but, but it didn't really speak to me as a, uh, as a human being who I am as I am, and I think that's probably why I got so interested in literature, because literature was always telling the human story-

12:40 Speaker 2 Right

12:40 Speaker 1 ... and speaking about relationships, and Halakha was just kind of technical and lacking in human touch. So I, I think that literature, for me, filled the, the void that I felt, um, from learning just merely Gemara or, or Halakha or even Musar. So I, I, I think I-- that's what drew me to literature. Um, and, and, and I started, you know, writing poetry, and because I was supported by my professors, I s-

13:12 Speaker 2 And you were drawn to poetry also?

13:14 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, uh, lit-- well, I read a lot of novels, but I also was writing poetry. Poetry seemed to me to be very compelling because, uh, in... you're able to compress in such a small space, um, so much information. It, it... and so much of a life can fit onto-

13:33 Speaker 2 Right

13:33 Speaker 1 ... uh, into s-a few small lines.

13:35 Speaker 2 Right.

13:35 Speaker 1 So that, that was very, um, magnetic to me. I, I, I also, you know, like most teenagers, I probably felt a little bit, um, alienated, um, and w-desiring connection to other people, and I always felt like y-a poem is a great way to sh-show some... a great way to share yourself with somebody else. You could share a poem with them, and they would have a, you know, a pretty good sense of who you are just through a poem.

14:04 Speaker 2 Right.

14:05 Speaker 1 Um, c-po-poetry has that kind of poignancy, and it's, it's so much is compressed in that small space. So that, that, I s-part of what drew me to, to poetry. I felt there was some kind of authenticity to poetry and some kind of a poignancy that's unparalleled in other art forms. Um, and yeah, that's really what's... I, I, I think that a lot of people feel that poetry fills a spiritual void for them, especially people who are, uh, agnostic or, um-

14:32 Speaker 2 Right

14:32 Speaker 1 ... consider themselves non-believers. They do get a, a very deep sense of humanity and inspiration from, from reading poetry, which, like, affirms the value of kindness or affirms that there's meaning in the ordinary passing moment.

14:46 Speaker 2 Hmm. Right. So you said, you said something interesting before, that Gemara and Halakha was, was, was l-- made you feel like you needed to fill a void with literature. Right? So you have, like, the more, I guess, um, uh, you, you, you have, you have literature, and then o-on the other side, you have, uh, well, you know, w-well, let's call non-literature or something that's more, uh, what, what would you say? More, uh, factual, more logical as opposed to-

15:18 Speaker 1 More, yeah, technical.

15:20 Speaker 2 More technical. Where do you put Chassidus? Is Chassidus literature in your mind?

15:25 Speaker 1 Well...

15:28 Speaker 2 Uh, where did you put it?

15:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I, I think I, I remember, um, first studying, um, the Chabad Sichos and thinking it was very profound. Um, mmm, y-almost similar in certain senses, at the time I thought this because that's what I was probably studying, l-looking at literary criticism, like, uh, um, professors who are, um, critiquing literature, not in terms of its value, but what is the underlying meaning.

15:58 Speaker 2 Right.

15:59 Speaker 1 What, what is the symbolism? What are the themes that run through a work? Uh, and I remember, like, learning a S-Sichos and seeing how the rebbe's weaving together from different, you know, from Pshat, Remez, Drash, so d-different, different realms of Torah and thinking how it, it surpasses the literary criticism.

16:20 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:20 Speaker 1 But, but it, but, you know, at least at that moment, thinking there's is some kind of similarity, this, this very deep and rich analysis. Um, now I, I would say I would say that, you know, Chassidus is, is the, the fifth Darga, the fifth level, you know, and it corresponds to the Yechida Sheb'Nefesh, and it's something really just another plane of reality.

16:47 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:47 Speaker 1 It's, it's the essence. It's, it comes from God's essence, it, and it, and it is the essence, and it awakens the Yechida. So, I mean, once, once you learn that that's how it's classified and defined in, in Chassidic literature, it's hard to, to sit, to compare it, and of course, you, uh, you know, once you define yourself as a Chassid or you're trying to live as a Chassid, it's hard, it's, it's, it seems inappropriate to compare it to literary criticism, but to the, the Rebbe Sichos. But, um, I, I do remember that, feeling that parallel. Um...

17:22 Speaker 2 Uh, my question, I guess, is-

17:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:23 Speaker 2 My g- question is d-does, does Chassidus fill that void of, that literature was filling?

17:30 Speaker 1 It, it, it was an interesting story once. Um, I mentioned the, the poet Tony Hoagland. Um, I... he once asked me, uh, to bring him to shul.

17:40 Speaker 2 Was he Jewish?

17:41 Speaker 1 No, he was not a Jewish person. He was f- uh, really probably agnostic at best. Um, he was really kind of... h-his, his writing is very ironic. He does a lot of, like, cultural criticism. Uh, he's a brill-- he was a brilliant poet, and he was, wrote about poet-poetry very brilliantly and, and observantly. Uh, but he asked me, for some reason, he wanted to come to shul. So it was Friday night. I brought him to shul and Kabbalat Shabbats, and it was the Chabad shul. Uh, and then we were walking home, and for some reason, I asked him, "Could you ever imagine not writing poetry?" Could you ever imagine if you s- just stop writing poetry? Uh, a-and interestingly, he said to me, he's like, "Well, if I had the imagination of the men who I saw tonight in that room in the, in the shul, then maybe I could stop writing poetry."

18:32 Speaker 2 Really?

18:32 Speaker 1 Which was a s-shocking-

18:33 Speaker 2 Huh

18:33 Speaker 1 ... thing that he said. And he me- he didn't mean imagining that they're imagining there's a God. He, he, he meant that they have some kind of, um, spirituality to them. They're experiencing something that's unseen. I think that's what he meant. Uh, and, and if he had that, then maybe he wouldn't feel a need to write poetry.

18:50 Speaker 2 So he was moved by what he saw?

18:51 Speaker 1 He was moved by what he saw. Um, and, uh, and other times he had criticism about it.

18:57 Speaker 2 Oh.

18:57 Speaker 1 But, but, but, but, so-

19:00 Speaker 2 Sounds like one of us.

19:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, um, I, I, I think learning Chassidus i-it ha-has ma- has many p- many purposes, you know? Uh, there's a, uh, the sikha, the, the Rebbe quotes the Frieda Rebbe about how, you know, you, you could learn sikha, you could, learning, uh, Chassidus is like going to the coal mine-

19:22 Speaker 2 Right

19:22 Speaker 1 ... and getting out the coals, and it's also like going deep sea diving for pearls.

19:25 Speaker 2 Right.

19:26 Speaker 1 And the idea of the coal mine is that y-you need coal. It's a staple of life, to provide warmth, uh, and light. So I think Chassidus, on the one hand, just helps the Jew get through, get through life, uh, in, in an idealistic fashion, and, and k- puts them above the maze into just a necessity.

19:44 Speaker 2 Right.

19:44 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, on the one hand. And then the pearls in that sikha, the Rebbe said, is like more like somebody who's learning a lot of Chassidus, like it's a luxury. It's like an indulgence. But right before Mashiach when the, when, uh, Jewish people are chassan, then they have to wear pearls to the, to the chassan. So they have to learn a lot of Chassidus. They have to be, like, swallowed in Chassidus, just like the, the pearls are in the ocean, and the ocean is c- the water's covering the whole expanse. Um, so I think Chassidus is, on the one hand, necessary just to get through your day, uh, as a, as a idealistic, committed Jew. Um, and then on the other hand, uh, I think it provides this overarching perspective of, of what the world is and wh- and what God is, um, and i-is, is deeply meaningful. I, so-

20:37 Speaker 2 Uh, my, my-

20:37 Speaker 1 Would I, would I need to write poetry?

20:39 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:39 Speaker 1 Could I stop writing poetry? Um, probably not. I probably would want to write poetry, but, but what a lot of times what ends up happening is that I could be moved by an idea in Chassidus, and then want to express it in poetry m-more like organically, not like that I want to teach somebody a lesson.

21:02 Speaker 2 This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is A Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvla Media. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basay Degani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is A Garden is a meditation on hope and holding on to a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad house and community. Share the message and vision of Basay Degani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. So why is that? That's what I'm trying to get at. I'm not trying to, uh-

21:50 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:50 Speaker 2 ... I, I di- I'm not trying to, to, to push you into a corner.

21:54 Speaker 1 No, it's okay.

21:55 Speaker 2 Like, is, is... No, but I'm not trying.

21:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:58 Speaker 2 Not 'cause I'm, not like-

21:59 Speaker 1 Why do... You're asking me why do I write poetry?

22:01 Speaker 2 No.

22:01 Speaker 1 Why is it, why is it, why is there a need to write poetry?

22:03 Speaker 2 No, not, not, not precisely. I'm not, I'm not trying to say is Chassidus literature.

22:08 Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

22:09 Speaker 2 I, I accept Chassidus is bigger than literature. I'm not trying to-

22:12 Speaker 1 Right

22:12 Speaker 2 ... I'm, but does it fill that void of literature? Which, uh, like, in a way, like you're saying, if I, if, if, like you were saying earlier-

22:21 Speaker 1 Yeah

22:21 Speaker 2 ... because you were learning Gemara Halakha, you felt that you needed literature to fill up-

22:26 Speaker 1 Right

22:26 Speaker 2 ... the more personal, alienated part of yourself. If you had been learning Chassidus, or today you are learning Chassidus, do you still feel, without literature, alienated, uh, lonely, um, in need of this kind of tool, this powerful tool that you've described as, in your case, poetry-

22:44 Speaker 1 Poetry

22:44 Speaker 2 ... to connect?

22:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, I don't actually really read very much literature anymore.

22:51 Speaker 2 Okay.

22:52 Speaker 1 Uh, not, I'm not sure if it's a ch- conscious choice. I just don't have that much time. I'm reading my students'-

22:57 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah

22:58 Speaker 1 ... uh, papers.

22:58 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:58 Speaker 1 Grading my students' essays-

22:59 Speaker 2 Right

22:59 Speaker 1 ... and poems itself.

23:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:01 Speaker 1 And then trying to learn, teach Chassidus. Um, and then-

23:04 Speaker 2 Oh, you teach, you teach Chassidus as, as-

23:06 Speaker 1 I mean-

23:07 Speaker 2 ... as part of your job?

23:08 Speaker 1 Not as part of my job. I, I teach, um, like a sikha shiur Sunday night-

23:12 Speaker 2 Okay

23:12 Speaker 1 ... in my home.

23:13 Speaker 2 Right.

23:13 Speaker 1 In, in the morning before davening at the Chabad House, I teach, uh, Chassidus. Um, so in the Shabbos morning, uh, this is the Chaba- at the Chabad House, but, um, and so I just don't really have that much time to, to read novels or, or-

23:31 Speaker 2 For sure. Sure.

23:32 Speaker 1 I, I, I'm not, um, I wouldn't say I'm against that. I mean, it's, I'm a, I'm a professor of, of writing, creative writing. So I really can't go on record saying I'm against that.

23:43 Speaker 2 Why do I po- Why do you po... But, but you s- you, you write... Fair. Fair. But you, you, you, you write poetry.

23:50 Speaker 1 So, so writing is dif- is a little bit different than reading also, I think. Um, but I, I, I would say that-

23:57 Speaker 2 In a way

23:58 Speaker 1 ... I, I-

23:58 Speaker 2 In a way, it's just, it's hyper-reading.

23:59 Speaker 1 Right.

23:59 Speaker 2 You have to read what you write, what you've read, I don't know, 100 times.

24:02 Speaker 1 I, I would say when I have more time, then I'm, I would say I, I enjoy learning Chassidus, but, but I do feel that I, I, I need to write.

24:11 Speaker 2 Why?

24:11 Speaker 1 And I think a lot of po- a lot of poets will tell you that, that it's not really a choice.

24:16 Speaker 2 Mm.

24:17 Speaker 1 Uh, writing is not really a choice. Um, when I feel, uh, overwhelmed by life or when I feel, um, uh, joyously overwhelmed by life-

24:28 Speaker 2 Right

24:28 Speaker 1 ... then it kind of just, um, it gushes out. I actually find it hard to write poetry.

24:33 Speaker 2 Really?

24:34 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. I don't, I'm not a very disciplined person. I don't have, like, set times where I write, write poetry. I have to really push myself to do it, b- or, or life will overwhelm me enough, and I'll just kind of be moved to write.

24:46 Speaker 2 Feel a need.

24:47 Speaker 1 But, but I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm not a good example of a disciplined artist. Um, again, I think I'm, a lot of times I'm very busy teaching and doing other things. Um, but I do feel an obligation to write poetry. I do feel, uh, for myself personally, that, that I should be writing poetry, and that I, that it's healthy to write poetry. Um, and then I guess I, I, at a certain point, I felt like-

25:14 Speaker 2 Butwhy?

25:15 Speaker 1 This is

25:16 Speaker 2 But why is the question.

25:18 Speaker 1 Why? Yeah.

25:18 Speaker 2 But, but, but, but, but-

25:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. No, that's a fair question.

25:20 Speaker 2 Let, let me, let, let me, let me just... Let me open up the question first.

25:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

25:23 Speaker 2 Just let me, let me just-

25:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:23 Speaker 2 ... let me just set it up for you.

25:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

25:26 Speaker 2 You know, because a lot of times, uh, especially in Chabad conversation, uh, a lot of times in Chabad conversation, um, there, there's this kind of accepted dichotomy of, you know, the Lubavitcher, you know, as you said, p- the, the kind of native Lubavitcher, let's say, and then there's the Baltlava or the person who became Lubavitcher later on in life. And one of those, one of the, one of the s- one of the characteristics of that split is that, yes, the, the person who came from whichever background, yeah, he needs literature because that was his background. That was his pr- his, his job, his, his upbringing, whatever. But the native Lubavitcher, he's got no need for that, for that whatever, you know? Um, and, and, and, and, and so I'm not e- I'm not even saying right or wrong here. I'm not trying to say one side is-

26:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

26:23 Speaker 2 ... right or wrong, but a lot of times it becomes like a conversation. "Well, the reason he writes poetry, the reason, you know, the reason he's got-"

26:29 Speaker 1 I see what you're saying.

26:30 Speaker 2 It's because that's how he was brought up, but it's not-

26:32 Speaker 1 I remember actually when I was in yeshiva, one, one of the rabbis said, "Oh, maybe you have like you, maybe you have some kind of psychological need to do it." Al-almost implying there's something psychologically wrong with you-

26:43 Speaker 2 Yes

26:43 Speaker 1 ... and you have to do it.

26:45 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes. Yes.

26:45 Speaker 1 But, but-

26:45 Speaker 2 Every, by the way, every, every rabbi in yeshiva, I've, I've come to believe, is a wannabe Freud.

26:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. But, but the interesting thing is, I remember being in a Chassidishe one ti- one time, and, uh, it, it was Rabbi Devinsky's shiur, and, and-

27:02 Speaker 2 This is in Kfar Chabad

27:02 Speaker 1 ... straight, straight... In Kfar Chabad. Strangely, he said, "Okay, close the sefer, and write down what the maamer means to you."

27:09 Speaker 2 Right.

27:10 Speaker 1 Which was a strange moment to, to me, 'cause he j- it just doesn't happen that often. But, but in a way, I think that's what, what poetry is doing, for me at least. Poetry is juxtaposing the words of the maamer with the actual life that I'm living.

27:25 Speaker 2 Right.

27:25 Speaker 1 And, and, and a lot of times there's a big gap between the two because Chassidus is, is, has a very high bar.

27:33 Speaker 2 Mm.

27:33 Speaker 1 All Torah has a very high bar.

27:35 Speaker 2 Right.

27:35 Speaker 1 You, you're reading about exceptional personalities, and especially if you learn Chassidus, people without a yetzer hara. So it's a very, very high bar. You're learning about tzadikim, rebbeim, um, and then you, there's you and your actual life.

27:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

27:50 Speaker 1 And, and then there's such a gap between those two things. Even if the Torah or the Chassidus is trying to speak to an ordinary person, I, I think no matter what, you come away thinking that this is a very high bar.

28:03 Speaker 2 Yes.

28:04 Speaker 1 Um, and I think the rebbeim are trying to speak to us as we are, but we, but still it's a text, so it feels, it feels for some reason like a very high bar. And Chassidus has very high expectations, uh, uh, of people.

28:16 Speaker 2 Yes. I think there's also limitations. I think it's fair to say that there's limitations. There are certain things that a rebbe can say in a maamer, and there are certain things he cannot say in a maamer.

28:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:24 Speaker 2 Right?

28:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:25 Speaker 2 A maamer, uh, like things have parameters, right? There are cer-

28:28 Speaker 1 Right

28:28 Speaker 2 ... and you see it, you see, you see it very much in the, in the Rebbe's Torah where things that he said in the ma- se- things that he wrote, for example, in the Igress or s- he said in Yuchidus are not ever quoted in a maamer.

28:38 Speaker 1 Right, they're not gonna be in a maamer, you see.

28:39 Speaker 2 He never said in a maamer.

28:40 Speaker 1 Right.

28:41 Speaker 2 The, like there are, th-there are parameters here, right?

28:43 Speaker 1 Right. So I think poetry for me is the space to negotiate the distance-

28:48 Speaker 2 Right

28:49 Speaker 1 ... and to bridge the gap. And I think that that's very important, actually meaningful. I actually think that everybody would do well to write poetry.

28:56 Speaker 2 Yes.

28:57 Speaker 1 Um, just because it would be a way to process their lives and, and, and think, uh, think a little bit more about their lives.

29:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

29:05 Speaker 1 And it, it's a kind of a concrete medium to do so. Um, and I, and I think, uh, that that would be very helpful. It would help people internalize what they're learning. Um, and so th-that's for, for me is what's happening in poem. But I, I, I... and in a certain way, I feel that I, I must have some kind of ability to do this-

29:27 Speaker 2 Right

29:27 Speaker 1 ... because I've had some degree of success, thank God-

29:30 Speaker 2 Right

29:31 Speaker 1 ... at it. So, so in that way, I kind of feel like it's a responsibility. But on the other hand, even if-

29:36 Speaker 2 But taking responsibility to whom?

29:38 Speaker 1 To, I guess to, as part of my tafkid, as part of my purpose-

29:43 Speaker 2 Okay

29:43 Speaker 1 ... in this world. If I, you know, have that ability, that, that I should, it's my responsibility to use it.

29:50 Speaker 2 Right.

29:50 Speaker 1 Like I'd definitely feel guilty if I'm not, if I don't write another book or I'm not writing poetry at all, if I gave it up, I would feel like I was, I was not doing God justice. Like, um, I was not, was not fulfilling my tafkid. I, I would feel that.

30:03 Speaker 2 Right.

30:04 Speaker 1 But the irony is, or, or the thing of, thing is though, you can't, when you sit down to write a poem, say, "I want to write a poem and share to share Chassidus."

30:14 Speaker 2 Right.

30:14 Speaker 1 Because a poem cannot be a lecture.

30:17 Speaker 2 Right.

30:17 Speaker 1 Um, for, for various reasons, I think. Um, one reason is that, uh, uh, what a poem is often is a, is an attempt to convey an experience.

30:28 Speaker 2 Mm.

30:29 Speaker 1 Um, there's a famous, uh, poem, it's called an Ars Poetica poem. Ars Poetica poem is a poem that lays out a poetic philosophy. So there's a famous Ars Poetica poem by the poet named Archibald MacLeish, written in 1927. And at the end of the last couple of the last two lines of the poem say, um, "A poem should not mean but be. A poem should not mean but be."

30:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

30:51 Speaker 1 Wh-which means to say, if you're having a meaning experience, it means you're trying to convey a message.

30:55 Speaker 2 Right.

30:56 Speaker 1 You have a point. You have a lesson you want to transmit. That's a meaning experience. A being experience means that you just allow the reader to share the experience that you had. And that's why oftentimes in a poem, uh, or one of the, the fundamental rules of writing is show, don't tell.

31:16 Speaker 2 Mm.

31:17 Speaker 1 That's what creates the being versus meaning experience. Show don't tell. Show means use images, but don't make a value assessment, a judgment assessment, and don't try to transmit a l- a lesson. It's really a difference between riy and shemiya in a lot of ways.

31:32 Speaker 2 Yes. Is it, is it-

31:33 Speaker 1 In Chochmah and Binah, it, it, it, it's, it, it, it, it harks back to that. Um, but-

31:38 Speaker 2 So that, that's a fascinating line because it, it, it runs in many ways in such... It, to me, it's, it's almost the, the difference between a good story and a, and a, and a lesson, right?

31:50 Speaker 1 Right.

31:50 Speaker 2 And-

31:50 Speaker 1 Right. Stories are so valuable because they're ac- an actual experience in the world.

31:55 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And-

31:56 Speaker 1 And they speak to us more directly-

31:58 Speaker 2 And so, so, so-

31:59 Speaker 1 ... in a way

31:59 Speaker 2 ... in, in many ways, we, we value the, the, the lesson over the story. Like, and, and, and there's reason. Like, we could steelman that, where, like, like so much of learning Torah is transmitting meaning, you know, the, the, the, the transmit- the transmission of sechel from the raft of the tamit from one person to another, sharing meaning, sharing ideas, right? But, but then there's this idea of mesorah, that a story has everything, right?

32:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

32:26 Speaker 2 A story has, a story has, has like what you described, being, where a person just feels like they're in that space of the person in the story, and life becomes that much richer.

32:39 Speaker 1 Right. And, and to do that, you have to use images-

32:42 Speaker 2 Right

32:42 Speaker 1 ... as opposed to abstractions.

32:45 Speaker 2 Mm.

32:45 Speaker 1 Um, you know, that's the lived experiences versus the theoretical. Um, but, but in the poems, I'm often will try to take a, an idea from Chassidus and then match it up with something that's going on in life. Uh, and, and, and I think the, the thing about that is, is I think that that is actually what a diyut haTochonym means. Because I think that the diyut haTochonym means how did this apply in your personal life, uh, in your daily experiences. Um-

33:19 Speaker 2 Right

33:20 Speaker 1 ... you have the high-minded Chassidic idea, or you have a lokus, and it's transcendent and spiritual, but what does it look like in your messy experien- human experience? And that, in, in that way, I think sometimes poetry could be a documentation, a recording of the diyut haTochonym as it plays out in the individual's life. Um, so- sometimes people say-

33:46 Speaker 2 Music, music to my ears.

33:48 Speaker 1 So sometimes, we were speaking about this a little earlier, sometimes people will s- say and ask me, you know, "Your poetry does speak about personal things or does speak about potentially embarrassing things." Um, that's true, but my feeling is, is that that's the Tochnit Shenitaχtan Lamatbi Mena. That is the ultimate low, those embarrassing or difficult moments, and to persevere through them, um, is the, is to make the diyut haTochonym. Um, that's precisely what it's, you know, what it's about. So I sometimes feel like poetry, because it's about life, is a good f- is a good medium for kind of capturing what a diyut haTochonym looks like in, in, in, in the actual world, in the actual experience of a, of human being.

34:39 Speaker 2 Yes.

34:40 Speaker 1 Whereas Chassidus, um, is telling us how and what to do and what, what the map is, what, you know, what the, what's the, you know, what's the instruction book and what the world is really made of, what's the spiritual biology, but then it's up to us to kind of go and apply that in, in our lives. And every... And it's gonna look differently for each person by design, a- and to kind of record what it's, what it's like to go through life trying to be a Frum Jew or a, a human being, um, applying these ideas and failing often, um, and, and, and, and s- feeling that there's sometimes a gap between the two, but persevering is in fact, is, is, is the stuff of diyut haTochonym.

35:24 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Are you ever worried, 'cause I know in a lot of your poems, and I, we wanna get to some of them soon, but I, I know that in some of your poems that I've read, you, you speak about not just, uh, embarrassing things like, let's say, a tattoo or whatever, but like, like doubts and, and like places of, of, you know, uncertainty, religious uncertainty, and so on. Are you ever worried, and maybe even less in those cases, but more in cases where you're trying to explain an idea in Chassidus, and maybe you connect it to a relationship, uh, maybe with your wife or whatever, or maybe not, but you're taking an idea and trying to put it in your own words. Are you ever worried, "Maybe I'm getting this wrong"?

36:04 Speaker 1 Um, no, because I think a, a poem is not a contract of truth. A poem isn't, is... There's not an expectation that a poem is, is going to approximate truth.

36:15 Speaker 2 Huh.

36:15 Speaker 1 Um, that's kind of it goes with the territory. It's, it's my attempt to render an experience. Um, I could try to take a concept in Chassidus as I understand it and try to explore how I see it playing out in my personal experience, but I, I, I don't see myself as an authority, so I'm kind of free from that, uh, from, from that expectation, I, I think. Um, yeah, I mean, that's part of what's good about being able to be creative and, and, and to use and to do creative writing. You don't have that kind of... No one is, no one is, uh, expecting, uh, absolute truth, and no one expecting you to necessarily be an expert i-i-in what you're writing.

36:55 Speaker 2 But so, so let me, let, let me tighten that question a little bit. You know, if, if, if you're a Chassid, right? You're, you're, you're, you're, you're a Lubavitcher Chassid, you're, you're, you're portraying Chassidus. Are you not worried that someone is going to come and say, "Yehoshua, you- "You are being, you are-" Putting things in the mouths of s- of the rebbeim that never happened. You are attributing to Chassidus your own f-fantasies or you don't care?

37:22 Speaker 1 Um, I do care. I do care. I'm a sensitive person, and I think if somebody actually said that to me, uh, uh, it would, it would... I would take a while to recover. Um, and I have a family, and I'm, you know, I have a fa- children who are, you know, learning in Chabad yeshivas and, and so on and so forth. Um, so I, I, I think there's a, you know, there's a delicate balance. I, I don't really worry that much about being accurate in terms of, uh... 'Cause I'm, nobody's looking at my, I don't think people are looking at my poetry as a maimer, you know. I, I was actually, d- I did this event in, uh, in the Five Towns on, on Motzei Shabbos, and, and somebody asked me, "Do you see your poetry as Torah?"

38:06 Speaker 2 Huh.

38:07 Speaker 1 A-a-a-and, uh, and they said, um, "You know, because I do, I would never take it into the bathroom."

38:13 Speaker 2 Interesting.

38:14 Speaker 1 I said, "That's the nicest thing anybody ever said to me." But, but-

38:18 Speaker 2 That's right

38:18 Speaker 1 ... b-but, but-

38:20 Speaker 2 That's very interesting

38:20 Speaker 1 ... I, I, I don't think of it like that. I, I guess I think that I'm borrowing from Chassidus, and then I'm trying to, um, again, like I've been saying, trying to l-explore how, uh, it, it might play out in a particular human being's life.

38:34 Speaker 2 Huh.

38:35 Speaker 1 So I, I, I don't feel that I, um, that I am beholden to-

38:41 Speaker 2 Right

38:41 Speaker 1 ... um, a-a-as a Chassidic guide. I don't, I don't see myself as that. Um, I'm happy that when my Chassidus could help with the fatta sama yanas, I, I'm happy about that. And, and I even maybe see that as a part of my responsibility-

38:56 Speaker 2 Hmm

38:56 Speaker 1 ... as a Lubavitcher, but like I said before, y-you can never write a poem with that in mind. It, it's interesting. I, I, um... A very formative experience for me, uh, in terms of choosing what to do with my life, once I was already in Tiferes and I, and I had to kind of choose did I wanna be get smicha and go into chinuch or shlichus or become a professor in, in my poetry.

39:20 Speaker 2 So this was after the creative writing degree?

39:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, after I got my degree, I went to Tiferes for two years.

39:25 Speaker 2 So you had already invested-

39:26 Speaker 1 I, I, I got an MFA in c- uh, gra-graduate degree in creative writing. That doesn't necessarily get you anywhere because-

39:32 Speaker 2 No, but it-

39:33 Speaker 1 But, but-

39:33 Speaker 2 It doesn't, uh-

39:33 Speaker 1 Yeah

39:34 Speaker 2 ... it's a lot of time-

39:35 Speaker 1 I had some experience

39:35 Speaker 2 ... and, and expense incurred

39:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. A-a-and, and then, and then I went to Tiferes and learned in kollel at Tiferes for two years. And then I had to, after that, I had to decide what I wanna do. And, um, um, I actually, at that point, interestingly, my father had just joined the army, and he was in basic training in Texas, and he was supposed to go to Italy. He was gonna be stationed to do, to kind of be an OBGYN for American soldiers in a, a b-base in Italy. And he, uh, so he was stationed in, in Texas, and he was going to, about to go overseas with my mother. And so for Pesach, we went to, to San Antonio, to, um, Rabbi Bloch Chabad House-

40:16 Speaker 2 Sure

40:17 Speaker 1 ... um, to stay there for Pesach, and Professor Bloch was there. Um-

40:21 Speaker 2 Uh, sure

40:22 Speaker 1 ... a-a-and I met him, and we talked a lot. Um, and he told me a story, a really fascinating story, uh, about how he grew up in Tennessee, and he wasn't frum, but he met Ray Posner, and that he was supposed to go for a PhD in Harvard in philosophy, and he, um, but Ray Posner said, "That's fine, but why don't you go to 770 for the summer before?" And this is like i- like the 1950s.

40:50 Speaker 2 Right.

40:50 Speaker 1 Uh, and, and he did go for a summer. And at first, he said he, he was, he got there, and it was so, um, off-putting because there was basically, it was a small room, and everybody was smoking, and there was two fans, one on either side of the room. You know, one, you know, the smoke would be blown to one side, and then in the other fan blow the other smoke to the other side. A-and the bathroom was filthy. So he said he ca- he called his mother, and he said, "I gotta get out of here." And he said his mother, who wasn't frum at the time, saved him 'cause she said, "You know, you came all this way, and you're gonna let this ruin it. Why don't you just give it a, a fair shake? Give it a fair chance." So he stayed, and he ended up really, um, taking to it and immersing it in learning Chassidus and Gemara. And then it came time to go to Harvard. He was, I think he was studying Greek philosophy. And he said when he got there, he, he told me, you know, he, he just felt so out of place and truly alienated, and he was doing poorly, and, uh, eventually decided, "I'm gonna just check out and go back to 770." And he, and he did. Um, and of course, his friends would, uh, welcomed him and embraced him, that this is obviously a good choice when it comes to studying Chassidus or Greek

41:59 Speaker 1 philosophy. It's the obvious choice. Uh, and, and the Rosh Yeshiva told him to say, but they taught... But he said then, he said, "Just go to get the Rebbe's hasgacha. Go to..." So he went to the, to the, to the Rebbe's office, and he told the Rebbe that he's, "I'm, I'm leaving Harvard. I want, I wanna stop studying philosophy. I want to join the yeshiva." And he said the Rebbe looked at him and said, "Uh, I think you better think about your career and go back to Harvard." So that was, like, a very interesting story for me to hear right when I was kind of trying to choose w-what I should do.

42:32 Speaker 2 Hmm.

42:32 Speaker 1 And it was, you know, kind of academia or do something in, in the Jewish world. Um, and he also said to me, uh, I think this is relevant to what I was saying earlier. He said that one time he went, uh, for dollars, and the Rebbe said, he, he told the Rebbe, "I really enjoy learning Chassidus." And he said the Rebbe shook his head. And he said, "But I do actually, uh, like philosophy too." And he said the Rebbe also shook his head to that, which was a very, uh, fascinating story. Um, so, uh, you know, it, it, that, that I felt like is a interesting thing for me to hear at a crossroad to my life. And I felt that, that, that was a, a, a informative Uh, and helpful. And, and I had some mashpiyim that said, you know, "Stay within the world of limud Torahs. You could go into chinuch, and you'll go b'chol achayel." Um, and then, but then others said, well, um, Dr. Breslaven said to me, he said that, uh, there are certain people that, that, that, um, if you're a professor, um, you'll meet people and influence people that, that no rabbi would ever meet or ex- or influence. Um, and they also quoted the, the end of, uh, Perkei Avot talking about Rabban and Rabban, that they were able to use secular wisdom, uh, to earn a parnasah and also to... You could do it to, if you know how to use it to serve Hashem. Um,

43:55 Speaker 1 so it, so that was helpful to me. And, and, and, and actually, everything kind of came full circle then because that presented to me a Yiddishkeit that wasn't small and defensive and just waiting for the next life. It was kind of saying Yiddishkeit is broad enough that you could actually be a poet or be a professor, uh, and still be a Hasid.

44:16 Speaker 2 Right.

44:16 Speaker 1 S- s-

44:17 Speaker 2 Right, but push comes to shove- ... push comes to shove, you, you can't... Like, no, I understand these stories, but like-

44:22 Speaker 1 Right. Or, or the re- the re- the reason why I, I wanted to tell you the story about, uh, Professor Bloch was because you can't write a poem, you can't write a poem if you don't like poetry. You can't write a poem because you want to use it solely as a vehicle for hafatzat Hashem. You have to like poetry.

44:39 Speaker 2 Right.

44:40 Speaker 1 And you, you have to have something to say about life from an authentic place in yourself if it's going to resonate with somebody else. You, you can't be-

44:48 Speaker 2 Right

44:48 Speaker 1 ... using it as a, as a vehicle to lecture.

44:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:52 Speaker 1 So, so I, I, I do like poetry. Uh, a- and when I write a poem, even if I am sharing an idea in Chassidus, I'm not sharing it in such a way that I want people to know this, they should know this information. I, I'm sharing it, this is a, something that I love, and it's precious to me, and it moves me in my life. I sometimes struggle to, to, to practice it or to fully u-utilize it, and this is what it looks like in my life.

45:21 Speaker 2 Right.

45:21 Speaker 1 But you cannot, you cannot... Uh, so I think when the rabbi said, you know, shook his head when he said, "I like philosophy also," for me that meant, you know, y- in my life, you, you have to like poetry. You, you can't just use it as a, as a vehicle.

45:36 Speaker 2 Right. Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonialum, Torah Umesora, and Atzlathan, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. Yes, that, that, that is such a interesting, um, point for me. Maybe I'm reading a little bit too much into it, but, you know, there's, there's sometimes this idea that, you know, hafatzat Hashem is, like, you know, is the, is the end that we're gunning for, and then we use all these other tools as means towards the end. We're like, you know, like, "Let's, let's, let's use poetry to get to the poetry community. Let's use acad- academia to get to the academic community. Let's use film. I do film. Let's do, let's use film to get to these people." And at the end of the day, anybody that's in these spaces, especially someone like

47:06 Speaker 2 yourself who has spent so many years learning it under people who have spent their lives doing it, you have to respect the medium.

47:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:13 Speaker 2 If you, if you disrespect the medium, it will disrespect you back. It's just how it works, right?

47:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:18 Speaker 2 You cannot just use it for your e- you know, for your own ends. You have to respect it. And, you know, I'm not trying to get now into, like, some kind of tussle with people who... Like, you know, just on its own, it's a fascinating idea where, like, on one hand, like, 'cause you're describing, to me at least, these kind of two, in a way, opposing ideas. On one hand, the overarching idea is ... you back. It's just how it works, right?

47:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:40 Speaker 2 You cannot just use it for your e- you know, for your own ends. You have to respect it. And, you know, I'm not trying to get now into, like, some kind of tussle with people who... Like, you know, just on its own, it's a fascinating idea where, like, on one hand, like, 'cause you're describing, to me at least, these kind of two, in a way, opposing ideas. On one hand, the overarching idea is

48:09 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah. No, I agree with that. It reminds me of the, the sikha about, uh, Chavivina, what do you call it? The mirrors were the, were the most precious-

50:01 Speaker 2 Oh, yes

50:01 Speaker 1 ... thing to Hashem.

50:02 Speaker 2 The mar- You're talking about the mares?

50:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:04 Speaker 2 The mares that serve us. Yeah.

50:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:05 Speaker 2 It was just, it was just in Torah by Hanukkah.

50:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. It, it, it was just in Torah of Hanukkah. And, you know, what's, what's really interesting is that the Rashi there, as Moshe Rabbeinu said, "I, I don't, I don't want it."

50:17 Speaker 1 Right.

50:18 Speaker 2 "I don't want it." That's from the Medrashim, I, I think. But I don't, I don't... It, it doesn't belong here. I don't think it belongs here, right? Like, like they're, they're... And, you know, now, now that, now that we're having this conversation, I'm thinking, talking, we, you know, we were talking earlier about the parameters of the meimer. Moshe Rabbeinu, he, he was Moshe Rabbeinu, right? Like, you know, we're not smarter than Moshe Rabbeinu.

50:44 Speaker 1 Right.

50:44 Speaker 2 So why didn't he see in it-

50:46 Speaker 1 Right

50:47 Speaker 2 ... what makes so much sense to us?

50:49 Speaker 1 Yes, but

50:50 Speaker 2 Right. Right. 'Cause Moshe Rabbeinu in, in, in his parameters, Moshe Rabbeinu in his parameters, maybe there was no place for the maris of service in the Mishkan, right? Maybe M- maybe Moshe Rabbeinu is Ari Yasher, and what he, he sees, he sees through everything, and he sees, and he, you know, he doesn't wanna dwell on, on what those mirrors reflect and what they, the memories that they bring up. And he can see past it, and so... But, but that's Moshe Rabbeinu, right? That's the meimer. But, but, but, but, you know, I think there are parameters here.

51:23 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I-

51:24 Speaker 2 You know, it's too much

51:24 Speaker 1 ... no, I, I agree with you, but it, it makes me think also about Asei Lecha Rav.

51:32 Speaker 2 Right.

51:32 Speaker 1 Like, I, I know that I'm, you know, I'm pushing the envelope a little bit.

51:37 Speaker 2 Right.

51:37 Speaker 1 And, and there's a fine line. Um, in fact, my second book was very personal-

51:45 Speaker 2 Right

51:45 Speaker 1 ... about my family. And I, I, I think it's important to say that I, I didn't really have a choice to write the poems or not. Uh, I feel like a poem chooses me more than I choose the poem. I'm not in control of... You know, I would like... I'm not the kind of poet or writer who goes, "I would like to write about this topic," and sit down and write about it. I, I don't... That's not how that I write. I write more by what I'm moved by.

52:10 Speaker 2 Right.

52:10 Speaker 1 And often, so if there's something emotional happening in, uh, in my life, in my family, for, that, uh, I'll write about that, and that's the only way I could write from an authentic place. Um, and, and I think it's often the only way the poem's gonna be successful in, to some degree, uh, some kinds of poems at least. Um, so then it became a question. I had all these poems about my family, um, and it became a question as to whether that's appropriate to publish that material. Um, so I think for a Hasid in, in, in those kind of situations, it's important to have a kabbalah beah.

52:48 Speaker 2 Right.

52:48 Speaker 1 Asei Lecha Rav. You, you, yeah, you're a human being and you're, you know, you're flawed and imperfect, um, and you go through these experiences and you respond like a human being. Uh, and, and, and in my case, I wrote these poems. Um, and then, and then, then I think as a Hasid you have to s- uh, uh, ask a mentor, "Is it appropriate to publish this?" Um, and that's what I did. And my mentor said, y- y- y- y- um, "The, the one who has to make that choice is your wife." And again, it's not like I could have written other poems that I had, and I just could have put a different book out. That doesn't work that way for me. I could only write these poems, and there weren't that many of them. And if I was gonna publish a book, that it would have to be those poems or, or no book. So a- a- and that would be hard, it would be hard to put, have no book, but I, I accepted it, that, that maybe that's the right thing. A- a- and, and my wife is very, a wonderful person, um, very supportive, s- said that I should publish them. And, and then, and then I went forward and published them.

53:54 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:55 Speaker 1 A- a- and one of the th- the thinking was, is that these are poems about hardships, um, and difficult times, but maybe they could help somebody who's going through those same experiences.

54:09 Speaker 2 Yes.

54:09 Speaker 1 And if so, maybe then it's worth it. Um, and, and then, you know, retroactively I could say maybe if it does he- help people, and it's a poem about going through difficult times and persevering, then maybe that is a, a documentation of a, of a diyuk b'tachonim experience. And, um, I, I, I would say also that my lifestyle itself is a commentary. So I could write about a poem about having a difficulty in life or maybe even having a difficulty with faith, but, but my lifestyle itself is a commentary ultimately ho- I hope that, that I was able to surmount that.

54:50 Speaker 2 Right.

54:50 Speaker 1 Even if the poem doesn't say that I did.

54:52 Speaker 2 Right.

54:53 Speaker 1 Um.

54:53 Speaker 2 But that, that, that's a, but that's the whole point. That's the whole point.

54:58 Speaker 1 So, so-

54:58 Speaker 2 That, that's the whole point.

54:59 Speaker 1 Right.

54:59 Speaker 2 That, that, that's, that's a space that literature fills.

55:01 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

55:02 Speaker 2 It's literally-

55:02 Speaker 1 Literature has to be human and it has to take risks, otherwise it's gonna fall flat. Um-

55:06 Speaker 2 Otherwise it's a fairy tale

55:07 Speaker 1 ... but, but, but in my mind, and maybe I'm wrong, in my mind, um, that is g- you know, bishvili nivra ha-helem. The go-- You have the helem. It's, God designed it specifically for you.

55:20 Speaker 2 Right.

55:21 Speaker 1 Y- y- you know, you're going through it. Okay, p- people don't ha-- And nobody should necessarily air any dirty, personal dirty laundry.

55:27 Speaker 2 Sure.

55:27 Speaker 1 There's this, you have to have discretion. And I think that's where it becomes a point where you, you, you, there's a gray area, and, and that's why Asei Lecha Rav. A- a- and when you're not sure, you're not objective, a- ask somebody who you trust to get a second opinion.

55:43 Speaker 2 Right.

55:44 Speaker 1 And I, I feel if I asked a mashpia and they told me to do it, then I was do, do, doing what the Rebbe would wanted.

55:51 Speaker 2 Right. Uh, yeah.

55:54 Speaker 1 I mean, if I, if I, if I asked a mashpia and they said, "Don't do this," and I said, "No, my career, I have to," then I think that that would not be what the Rebbe wanted. Uh, so, so in the end, I th- you know, th-that's all a person can do. A person is a human being. Uh, they're subjective, and flawed, and vulnerable. I think that's why it's so, it is important to have a mashpia, you know, a

56:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

56:19 Speaker 1 Um, so I, I, I don't f- I remember, uh, you know, when, uh, in Tefillis, Rabbi Wagser said, "If that's what, if your mashpia tells you something, it's like it's, that's God saying it." Now, of course, 'cause you can have different mashpias, or you don't like your mashpias, switch to a different one. But, but there, there is a, you know, it's the Pirkei Avos.

56:39 Speaker 2 Right.

56:39 Speaker 1 It's, it's Torah. So, uh, and, and many times in my life, uh, I, I, I feel like sometimes I'm in unique situations.

56:49 Speaker 2 Does your mashpia understand poetry?

56:52 Speaker 1 Uh.

56:52 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to figure out who it is, but-

56:54 Speaker 1 Um, uh, the person that I asked this question, yes, I, I think so. For sure.

57:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:00 Speaker 1 For sure. And you know, there, there's been times where some people said, "Why don't you work on translation to the Filipker Pesichas?" And, and I asked my mashpia, and they said, "No, you have to go much farther down. You have to go down- "... really talk to the top." And that's not, you know. So, and I like that advice. I think that's a-

57:21 Speaker 2 I like, I like it too

57:22 Speaker 1 ... it's a good advice. Um, it's a good advice. Um, so yeah. I, I, I think you're not alone. That's a thing to, to know. You, you're not alone, and you're not just making these decisions like you're on an island.

57:36 Speaker 2 Right.

57:37 Speaker 1 You know? The Rebbe set up a system for us, and it's, it's crystal clear. Uh, a-a-and you have to find a person who you, who you, who will understand where you're coming from. I think I'm in a l- a lot of times I'm in unique, uh, waters-

57:54 Speaker 2 Right

57:54 Speaker 1 ... because I'm in this, uh, situation, the po- the poetry world, and as a professor, and things like that. You have to find somebody who you feel has, has a broad enough perspective to see the bigger picture.

58:06 Speaker 2 Right.

58:06 Speaker 1 But I think the, the, that so many times in my life, I said, "Well, thank God I have a mashpia that, that I could ask."

58:14 Speaker 2 Right.

58:14 Speaker 1 You know, I'm not, I'm not alone.

58:15 Speaker 2 Right.

58:16 Speaker 1 A-a-and that's one of the, you know, really beautiful things that the Rebbe set up, I think.

58:20 Speaker 2 Mm. I mean, it's so, it's so interesting how you're, you know, this theme of you're not alone, that's the idea. Uh, you, you, you explained that's one of the reasons you feel you write poetry is so peop- or you publish certain poems is so that other people shouldn't feel alone. But like you're saying, it makes sense in a way that you cannot make people feel not alone if you feel alone yourself, right? And so the way you don't feel alone-

58:46 Speaker 1 Right

58:46 Speaker 2 ... is, is by having this sense of connection and this sense of, uh, guidance. It's, it's, it's very interesting how, you know, a, a lot of times, and I'm not discounting it completely, but a lot of times the mashpia is seen as this kind of Kabbalah soil. You know, like, "We need s- I need someone who tells me, gives me orders." And you're al- you're also framing it as a, as a s- as a s- as a kind of connection or the, you know, the opposite of isolation, the opposite of alienation. And-

59:14 Speaker 1 Well, 'cause your safek is so-

59:16 Speaker 2 Correct. I agree with it

59:17 Speaker 1 ... it's so painful.

59:18 Speaker 2 I agree with it. No, I agree with it. Uh, you know, that, that, that, that there, there's no lonelier place than being in doubt, right? 'Cause, 'cause y-y- it's on you to figure that one out. It's your doubt, and you're, you're kind of in that corner yourself. And, and having that person to guide you is, is immense, is, is, is immensely helpful. I, I just wanted to, before we get to your poems, uh, yeah, I just, I, I, I, I've been ha- uh, this has been sitting on my head the whole time, the story of, th- your conversation keeps reminding me of the story of Re-Reb Hillel Paritcher, I'm sure you know. Uh, I think it's Reb Hillel Paritcher, who he, he heard, he, I think he was a Hasidim, I think, through Reb Aim. But I've, so I don't know which rebbe this was with. But he heard a maimer, and then there was later a k- he heard a maimer from the rebbe, and then he had his own, uh, chazzan of the maimer. And there was a, I don't know if it was with him and the rebbe or one of the rebbe's so- I think it was with the rebbe. Like, it, th- that's not how I said the maimer. He said, "But yeah, but that's how I heard it." This is, you know, my version of the maimer may not be the way you said it, but it's the way I heard it, and that, that's also real, right? And,

1:00:28 Speaker 2 and you, when you said that story of, of, of the ter- the person doesn't take your book into the bathroom- ... that's what I, it reminded me of that, where, like, it may not be what the m- what's said in the maimer, but that's how you heard it, and that in itself is a, is a kind of terror, right? Like, there is, there is that... It's, it's a very interesting kind of space because there i- at the end of the day, the maimer is the maimer, right? The, we're not trying to kind of mel-

1:00:54 Speaker 1 Right

1:00:54 Speaker 2 ... you know, dilute it and, you know, the, this is the Oisher Rav, when your chazzan maimer is supposed to say it the way it was said, you know, the, the, there was a lot of dedication paid to getting it right.

1:01:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, it reminds me of the idea that y-y-you know, you have the Mishkan the way that it's told to Moshe, and it's-

1:01:10 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:10 Speaker 1 ... commanded, and, you know, some of it tzilas. And then you have the Mishkan the way that the construction workers are making it.

1:01:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:16 Speaker 1 Right? And, and it's not, it's not transcendent and spiritual. It's a little messy.

1:01:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:20 Speaker 1 Right? But that's the ultimate tafkid.

1:01:22 Speaker 2 That is the Mishkan.

1:01:23 Speaker 1 That's the tafkid.

1:01:24 Speaker 2 That is the Mishkan.

1:01:24 Speaker 1 Right.

1:01:24 Speaker 2 And it's just as holy. It's just as-

1:01:26 Speaker 1 It's more. That's the tafkid.

1:01:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:27 Speaker 1 The other Mishkan-

1:01:28 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So it's just, it's just a really interesting, it's, you know, it, like, and then people want, "But where's the source for this? Where's the source for this idea that you have?" It's like, no, that's the whole point. There isn't one. There isn't one. I may be wrong.

1:01:45 Speaker 1 Right.

1:01:45 Speaker 2 I may be wrong. I, I, I actually like, I, you know, I was thinking about it by, by, by, by Yitiskisa for bringing this year. And I was like, you know, maybe it's because everybody has a smartphone in their pocket, or maybe just 'cause I'm jaded personally, and I'm kind of annoyed just hearing the same thing again and again. But it's like, I, I don't need to hear from you something that I could Google or I c- or I could have read. I, it was, tell me something Like the way I, if I-

1:02:11 Speaker 1 Go through your own human idiosyncratic experience

1:02:13 Speaker 2 ... tell me something on your heart.

1:02:14 Speaker 1 Right

1:02:14 Speaker 2 And the way I put it, tell me something on your heart, tell me something that might get you in trouble.

1:02:19 Speaker 1 Right. Earlier I was gonna say, actually, if I had to s- find a parallel between poetry and an aspect of Hasidic life, m- for me, it's sometimes I feel that the space that I can inhabit in writing a poem is similar to a space of a farbrengen.

1:02:36 Speaker 2 Like the, the-

1:02:37 Speaker 1 It's a space of truth, of truth telling-

1:02:39 Speaker 2 Right, right

1:02:39 Speaker 1 ... of honesty.

1:02:40 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:40 Speaker 1 For me, at least. It could mean something different for, for, for many different people.

1:02:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:44 Speaker 1 You know, there's many different poets writing many different kinds of poetry, but I, I do feel that it's like inhabiting a similar space of, of authenticity in, in, in truth. When a poem is working-

1:02:55 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:56 Speaker 1 ... when a poem is working, um, and I'm telling the truth, uh, i- I mean a deep emotional truth, um, it does feel similar to kind of a vulnerability expressed in a farbrengen.

1:03:07 Speaker 2 Right. Right. All right, so let's get to, let's get to some of your poems. So, uh, we were discussing earlier, I think we, I think we should begin with, I think we should begin with that, that poem about being a, the, the, the, the troubles of being a Jewish po- poet.

1:03:23 Speaker 1 All right. This, this poem is a, I wrote, uh, it's in my first book, so it's probably written more than 15 years ago. Um, okay, so it's called "A Jewish Poet". It is hard to be a Jewish poet. You cannot say things about God that will offend the disbelievers, and you always have to remind someone it wasn't your people who killed their savior. And Solomon and David are always laughing over your shoulder, like a father and son ridiculing the unfavored brother. And you cannot entice people with the sloping parts of a woman's body because you must always remain pure, and every day you have to ask yourself why you're writing when there is already the one great book. It's hard to be a Jewish poet. You cannot say anything about the disbelievers which might offend God.

1:04:25 Speaker 2 Huh. So ve- very much, very much what we were, what, what we've been talking about, very much what we've been talking about, the, the-

1:04:36 Speaker 1 I think that tho- those, those anxieties that I had, you know, 14 years ago, 15 years ago, I don't necessarily have anymore.

1:04:44 Speaker 2 Really?

1:04:44 Speaker 1 To the same extent, you know? Tho- those were something that I, I, I think really this poem I, I wrote, "You have to ask yourself why you're writing when there's alread- already the one great book," I, I remember being in graduate school and writing poetry and then encountering Hasidics and feeling like there was almost no point to write because the, I, I'm studying the secrets of the universe.

1:05:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:05 Speaker 1 So what could I personally add?

1:05:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:07 Speaker 1 Was, was my thought. Um, uh, you're studying about the... I'd never heard of the dalet olamos. Uh, you know?

1:05:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:16 Speaker 1 I'd never heard of, you know, atzilut. A- and then all of a sudden you, you hear the, that there's atzilut, like, and there's four worlds, like what, what am I supposed to say?

1:05:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:25 Speaker 1 You know? So, so I had that feeling, but, but I think th- this really speaks to what you were saying. M- it's not, I'm not supposed to write another, you know, uh, uh, Torah Chadasa. Uh, uh, and that's not what I'm, what my, my point is. I'm supposed to write about my experience as a, as a, as a Jew.

1:05:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 And that is, again, I, I feel like is a, uh, a documentation of the dibatachotonim.

1:05:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:52 Speaker 1 What, what, what it looks like.

1:05:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:05:54 Speaker 1 It's not my job to, to... I, I previously felt intimidated. What could I contribute? What could I say? And i- i- not only is it not my job, but that's the whole point. The, the whole point of, of a Torah is so that we can make a dibatachotona.

1:06:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:07 Speaker 1 So you have to write the poem.

1:06:09 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. Is it, isn't that, I mean, so- so much of Hasidics, the way you're framing it now, such a beautiful way of how Hasidics wrestles with, you know, which one comes first? Uh, you know, there's, i- is it Torah or Bene Israel, right?

1:06:23 Speaker 1 Right, right.

1:06:24 Speaker 2 And in a way it's, it's a sym-

1:06:25 Speaker 1 Or even it's the shaman guf.

1:06:27 Speaker 2 Right. But in a way it's symbiotic where like it depends how, you know, both in a way, right?

1:06:30 Speaker 1 Right, right.

1:06:30 Speaker 2 But there's this idea where, you know, the, the, the, the way that Torah reaches the world is through the neshamah.

1:06:38 Speaker 1 Right.

1:06:38 Speaker 2 Right? The, the only way, the only way that these ideas of Torah permeate the world is through the person who wrestles with them.

1:06:45 Speaker 1 Right. Or, but really-

1:06:47 Speaker 2 That's self is Torah

1:06:47 Speaker 1 ... you know, shebechkad bolot, really, Bene Israel was before the Torah.

1:06:51 Speaker 2 Right, on a different level.

1:06:52 Speaker 1 Right.

1:06:52 Speaker 2 Right? But, but I'm saying here-

1:06:53 Speaker 1 Right

1:06:53 Speaker 2 ... here the-

1:06:54 Speaker 1 Right

1:06:54 Speaker 2 ... here you're talking about how Torah has to come through the persons.

1:06:56 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:06:57 Speaker 2 So it's very interesting. Um, yeah, so let, let's jump a little bit around in the, in the poetry. Uh, maybe we should have began with this, but here's what it is. There's a poem, is it in your second book, the one about the, the light and the lamppost?

1:07:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's in my second book.

1:07:14 Speaker 2 All right.

1:07:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, my wife doesn't actually like when I read this one, but...

1:07:17 Speaker 2 She doesn't listen to the podcast, so it's okay.

1:07:18 Speaker 1 She's... I know. Okay. This one, yeah.

1:07:21 Speaker 2 This is, this is, this is one.

1:07:23 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay, this is called, "You Stood Beneath the Streetlight Waving Goodbye."

1:07:33 Speaker 2 And when was, when was this written?

1:07:35 Speaker 1 This was probably written like maybe 12 years ago, 13 years ago.

1:07:40 Speaker 2 Also a while ago.

1:07:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. Because what happens is you, you write, you write your poems, and then you need to co- you know, mass enough poems to have, to come up with a book. So that could take a while, and then it takes a while for the book to be pu- edited and published.

1:07:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:54 Speaker 1 So you, you could end up with poems in a book that were, could even be like 10 years, that you wr- wrote 10 years earlier.

1:08:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:01 Speaker 1 My first book, I wrote most of those poems in graduate school, actually.

1:08:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:05 Speaker 1 So, okay. Uh, called, "You Stood Beneath the Streetlight Waving Goodbye." You stood beneath a street light waving goodbye the night we dropped you off in the city for our daughter's appointment with one of the country's top surgeons. And as we drove away, the other children and I waved back at you until, because of the angle in the distance, your forms disappeared in the light. And I remembered how in college I would turn back each evening as I stepped out of your apartment building. You would poke your young, beautiful face out the second story window, your arm cutting the cool night air as you waved goodbye. And I would walk backwards over the frosted grass until I reached halfway beyond the next building, where each time from that distance, I watched the street lamp's light suddenly consume your dark arm and face. The mystics say creation begins as a luminescent point, a flash of wisdom containing all that will be, but in an abstract potential form. All those nights when we were so young, when your body became a ray of light, I could not have imagined the life that lay ahead of us a decade later. Two boys and two girls, one who cannot hear, all of us in a small apartment, each with needs as enormous as mansions. Sometimes I'm afraid you will wave goodbye and turn away from our life together, that a man who could make things easier has been waiting ever since the mystic's luminescent flash, growing ever more real and

1:10:02 Speaker 1 hungry for you until one day you will materialize as you load groceries into the van. I would like to go back to the young woman waving at the window to the man walking backwards. I would like to show her this life, to say she is free to go, and to ask her if she will still take me.

1:10:28 Speaker 2 It gets to you even 14 years later, huh?

1:10:30 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. I mean, it's very, it's very personal. Yeah. It's... You know, you're, y-y- even, even if you, you know, decide that you're gonna publish something, you still, you still , you still question, you know, uh, you know, i-in the aftermath. I, I actually remember reading this book like a couple years ago, you know, and I, and then I was like, "Wow, I can't believe I wrote this , and I can't believe I published it," you know? A-a-a-and even though I spoke about it and I deliberated over it. Also, what happens is that when you're writing a poem and you're editing it and you're reading it over so many times, you kind of get distant from the emotion entailed in the poem.

1:11:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:11 Speaker 1 It almost becomes a separate entity, and you don't even realize you lose a sense of the, of the gravity of w-what, what the poem is doing and what it means and how somebody else might process it. That is why it's shocking when you encounter a reader and, and they are, they tell you that they're moved by your work. You-

1:11:28 Speaker 2 But I, but I find that poem so touching. I don't find that poem like, um, like im-- I mean, obviously it's easy for me to say, but I don't find it like embarrassing or disparaging or somehow like, uh, look at like... You know, it's, it's, it's real. It's real.

1:11:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. It's-

1:11:47 Speaker 2 I mean, I, I read it, I read it years ago, and I remember it, I remember it to this day, you know? It, it, it's, it, it's... Like what, what do you find... Like what is-- Is it just that it's so personal, or is there something in there that you feel is a little bit on the edge?

1:12:03 Speaker 1 I guess it's personal. I mean, yeah, it's personal. It's speaking about ch- life's challenges in a very open way.

1:12:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:12 Speaker 1 Um, which some people, you know, don't wanna do, and-

1:12:16 Speaker 2 That's their problem.

1:12:18 Speaker 1 Well, yeah, that's true. But I, I, I... Look, every writer, w- even if they're not frum, they have this dilemma: how much o-of my family's life can I write about?

1:12:27 Speaker 2 I see.

1:12:27 Speaker 1 Um, every writer has that dilemma, and in, and in the frum world, you probably have it even more.

1:12:32 Speaker 2 But, but, but, but why is that? Because like when you read this poem, and there are other poems of yours that I, I suppose we could say are a little bit more-

1:12:39 Speaker 1 A little risque

1:12:39 Speaker 2 ... more risque.

1:12:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I don't think this poem-

1:12:42 Speaker 2 You know? This is not risque

1:12:42 Speaker 1 ... I don't think this poem is risque. Um-

1:12:44 Speaker 2 This is, this is, this is about, this is about, you know, con-- at least to me, c- you know, contrasting lived experienced life versus the i- you know, the kind of naive, I... Na- innocent, you know, l- marry me, you know, like- ... everything's gonna be great.

1:13:03 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

1:13:04 Speaker 2 I mean, it's just, it's just life.

1:13:05 Speaker 1 Right. It's just the stuff of life. Yeah. Yeah. A-a-and if... I mean, I guess when I read that poem, I, I, I, what I, what I think it's about, I think it's like about, um, trying to show affection towards my wife, you know what I'm saying? Even after all w-- you know, all the life that we've had, you know, I hope that you would still want to, to continue, you know, if you had a choice to do it all over again.

1:13:33 Speaker 2 That's such a beautiful- No, that's a, it, it, it, it... I mean, I'm not a very emotional guy- ... at least not outwardly, but it, it, it's, it's, it's so touching. It, you know, like i-isn't that what we all wonder all the time? I mean-

1:13:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:13:45 Speaker 2 ... I don't know. Maybe I, maybe I'm, maybe I'm sharing too much myself now, but isn't that what we all wonder all the time? That like, you know, I hope that, I hope that, you know, our, our hopes, our hope is that f- everything that, that, that turned out and, you know, all the, all the successes and disappointments, that we would still do it all over again together. Isn't that the ultimate-

1:14:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

1:14:08 Speaker 2 ... isn't that the ultimate testament to, to, to a relationship?

1:14:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. But I guess there's a, it's tinged with sadness, the poem. My wife doesn't like when I read it. If I'm at a reading and I read, she doesn't, she doesn't like when I read that poem.

1:14:22 Speaker 2 It's fine.

1:14:23 Speaker 1 Um-

1:14:24 Speaker 2 I'm sure, but it's, uh- ... no, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure. It, it's a tou- it's a very, it's a... Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for her. I don't know. I mean, I understand. I, I, I don't take it for granted that you published it. I understand why, why you would, why you would, why you would not, why w- you would not publish it.

1:14:41 Speaker 1 I, I think also, uh, uh, part of me is in this poetry world where people are writing much more provocative-

1:14:48 Speaker 2 Yes

1:14:48 Speaker 1 ... things that are pushing the envelope to such a degree that it's, I, I maybe don't even have a sense of the, of scale, uh, you know?

1:14:56 Speaker 2 But in a way-

1:14:57 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:14:57 Speaker 2 ... those kind of poems, I, I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but the things have gotten so like open, where in a way-

1:15:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:15:03 Speaker 2 ... when you don't hide anything, it actually doesn't t- to me at least, it doesn't even, it's not provocative at all.

1:15:08 Speaker 1 Right. It's just over the top.

1:15:09 Speaker 2 It's like the-

1:15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's-

1:15:10 Speaker 2 It's just like everything-

1:15:11 Speaker 1 ... poor taste

1:15:11 Speaker 2 ... it, every- no, it cheapens everything.

1:15:13 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:15:13 Speaker 2 Like if there's nothing that you're concealing-

1:15:16 Speaker 1 Right

1:15:16 Speaker 2 ... then, then, then almost nothing, you know, like at least in, in filming there's this idea that you always want to, you know, you, you wanna film into shadow, right? You want, you want the light to be behind the shadow as opposed to the shadow behind the light. You wanna draw people in with, with what's behind, not what's-

1:15:34 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:15:35 Speaker 2 ... not, not, not, you know, not like-

1:15:36 Speaker 1 Right, right

1:15:36 Speaker 2 ... not bring everything to the surface.

1:15:38 Speaker 1 Right, right.

1:15:39 Speaker 2 Like, like leave some stuff to be concealed.

1:15:41 Speaker 1 Some, some implication. Something el- elliptical.

1:15:43 Speaker 2 Yes. Give, give layers. There's-

1:15:44 Speaker 1 Right, right

1:15:44 Speaker 2 ... you know, there's concealment, there's revelation, and so on.

1:15:47 Speaker 1 Right. Mm-hmm.

1:15:47 Speaker 2 Um, no, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful poem. Um, there, there was another poem, a-and f- by the way, if there's any ones that you wanna share-

1:15:55 Speaker 1 Mm

1:15:55 Speaker 2 ... please feel free. There, there's another one though that, uh, one that, that sticks out of my mind about the immigrant. Is that from your first or second book?

1:16:03 Speaker 1 Oh, that's, uh, that's, that's in the back of my second book. Yeah, that's called the, "The Soul in a Body." It's very short.

1:16:08 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:16:09 Speaker 1 "The Soul in a Body." "The soul in a body is like an old Russian immigrant looking out his apartment's only window. 'Yes, yes,' he says. 'The landlord printed my name in block letters on the lobby directory decades ago. All correspondence has been forwarded to this address, but I am not from here. I am not from here at all.'"

1:16:40 Speaker 2 Uh, that's, uh, I like that one a lot.

1:16:43 Speaker 1 Should I read one more, like, directly, uh, incorporating Hasidus?

1:16:49 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure.

1:16:50 Speaker 1 Just to see the kind of difference maybe. I'll read two of them. So, so one-

1:16:56 Speaker 2 But, but, but, before you go to the next one-

1:16:58 Speaker 1 Yes, yeah

1:16:58 Speaker 2 ... th-that one, that one, for example, the neshamah in the body, right?

1:17:01 Speaker 1 Right, right.

1:17:01 Speaker 2 Right? To me, that's a beautiful, um, you don't really, you don't really cite a source. You don't cite a text. You just, you have this beautiful... It's, it's an image that stuck with me for a while-

1:17:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:17:13 Speaker 2 ... where like this, you know, the immigrant and, and, and, and, and the sense of place or the sense of-

1:17:19 Speaker 1 Right

1:17:19 Speaker 2 ... sense of h- you know, homesickness almost-

1:17:22 Speaker 1 Right

1:17:22 Speaker 2 ... just kind of fits the-

1:17:23 Speaker 1 Don't f-

1:17:23 Speaker 2 Fits, fits the topic.

1:17:24 Speaker 1 I guess I thought probably-

1:17:25 Speaker 2 Where did it come from? Like how does that work?

1:17:26 Speaker 1 Maybe that's... I don't know. Sometimes a poem just starts with an image. I just thought like, when you look at, like, the mailboxes in an apartment, you see like these kind of block-

1:17:34 Speaker 2 Right

1:17:34 Speaker 1 ... letters and the sticker.

1:17:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:36 Speaker 1 It kind of is a striking, strange im-image, um, which is the person's name, but it's also feels kind of anon-anonymous and, uh-

1:17:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:17:45 Speaker 1 ... but, uh, probably comes from like the ideas, 'cause it is like the way that the Rebbe reads the Mishnah, "Al kol chata cha."

1:17:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:53 Speaker 1 "Al kol chata mei," so the neshamah doesn't really wanna go, come down here.

1:17:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:57 Speaker 1 And it does, and, and in fact, if, if the neshamah is to be successful here in, in making the yefah tach toeim in, in, to be var the guf, it can't feel at home.

1:18:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:07 Speaker 1 Right?

1:18:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:08 Speaker 1 So, but because the, this, there's the etem neshamah and it's a soldier, uh, it still will come down anyway.

1:18:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:14 Speaker 1 It's against the s- the teva of the neshamah, but it will do it anyway. But it, and it needs to constantly feel like it's not at home, or like, uh, you know, like, uh-

1:18:22 Speaker 2 So, it's, but-

1:18:23 Speaker 1 ... in Lovin' Gartee, like, uh, also-

1:18:24 Speaker 2 No, the idea resonates with me but, but my... So you, you, you had this image, and you're like, something clicks in your mind, and-

1:18:31 Speaker 1 I, I'm sure that I was lear-- I can't remember exactly when writing that poem, but th-that whole concept, even just thinking about a soul in a body is something that you're g-gonna do when you s- learn a lot of Hasidus.

1:18:43 Speaker 2 Right, but did that start with the idea, or did it start with the image, with the feeling?

1:18:48 Speaker 1 Um, I'm not sure. I, I can't really remember, but I think in a life-

1:18:53 Speaker 2 It doesn't feel like it started with an idea

1:18:55 Speaker 1 ... in, in a, in a, in a life, you know, your, your... a person is constituted of all the things that they're learning-

1:19:01 Speaker 2 Sure

1:19:01 Speaker 1 ... and all the things that they're seeing, and then it kind of just, uh, weaves together probably, and then you sit down to write. Uh, hopefully, if you learn, if you learn Hasidus, it becomes the part of the way that you look at things, right?

1:19:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:14 Speaker 1 And then , and then when you kind of analyze a situation or think about a situation, you might think about it through that lens.

1:19:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:21 Speaker 1 Um, I, I, you know-

1:19:22 Speaker 2 But it, it definitely doesn't feel like you were, like you talked earlier about meaning versus being.

1:19:26 Speaker 1 Right.

1:19:26 Speaker 2 It definitely doesn't feel like I have this concept of neshamah in the guf, how do I-

1:19:31 Speaker 1 How do I share it? How do I share?

1:19:32 Speaker 2 How do I, how do I, like, find a-

1:19:33 Speaker 1 Right.

1:19:33 Speaker 2 It feels, it feels real.

1:19:35 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

1:19:35 Speaker 2 It feels like, I feel, I feel that guy that, that, you know, that, that immigrant who, who, who, who, who's frustrated that like, "This is my home, but it-"

1:19:45 Speaker 1 Right

1:19:45 Speaker 2 ... "totally isn't."

1:19:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, and I think what you're saying, it's especially true if you're trying to write, let's say, for a secular audience. You definitely can't lecture to them.

1:19:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:19:57 Speaker 1 Secular audiences already think people of faith are, are overly simplistic, and they, they have all the answers.

1:20:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:03 Speaker 1 I think that's probably also partly why a lot of the poems do invite, um, experiences shrouded in doubt or challenges and difficulty. Maybe part of it is I'm writing n- for a larger audience a-and, uh, I want them to know maybe that just because you're a religious person doesn't mean that, that life is simple or easy, or you even have all the answers.

1:20:26 Speaker 2 That's interesting. You feel that if you were writing for a religious audience, you would be less open about your doubts?

1:20:32 Speaker 1 It might be. It might be. It might be the case. I, I-

1:20:34 Speaker 2 Religious, re-religious people don't have doubts?

1:20:36 Speaker 1 They do. They do, but, but I might... Maybe if I thought of, you know, who am I writing for? If I thought I'm writing for... May- it might be if I thought I'm just writing for other frum people, maybe I would, maybe it would be more like, just kind of like, uh, Parsha poems and -

1:20:52 Speaker 2 Right. Maybe

1:20:54 Speaker 1 ... a-a-a-and, and, and, and, like, just kind of like-

1:20:56 Speaker 2 Well, well, well

1:20:56 Speaker 1 ... capture Hasidus. I, I don't know why that is, but-

1:20:58 Speaker 2 Well, but-

1:20:58 Speaker 1 ... but that might be-

1:20:59 Speaker 2 Yeah, but exactly

1:21:00 Speaker 1 ... it might be the case.

1:21:00 Speaker 2 Why? Why? I mean, like, like-

1:21:02 Speaker 1 Because that... Look, the, the, I think that is-

1:21:05 Speaker 2 From people, you, you think from people, uh, y- like-

1:21:08 Speaker 1 One of the reasons why I'm also not quite as afraid to, to share some of these things is because I, I think that the people that would be offended by it are not gonna be picking the book up anyway.

1:21:18 Speaker 2 Right. I mean, fair, fair enough. Fair enough. But like, like-

1:21:21 Speaker 1 Like what, what is the Rosh Yeshiva, how many Rosh Yeshivas are gonna like

1:21:25 Speaker 2 I have, I, I, I just, I, I don't know. I-

1:21:29 Speaker 1 But yeah, that, that, he shouldn't, that's not a good logic. He's not, you know, I shouldn't write poems because you-

1:21:34 Speaker 2 No, but I-

1:21:35 Speaker 1 Because the Rosh Yeshiva will not look at it

1:21:37 Speaker 2 But I just, look, I, look, o- on one hand, on one hand, there's always the, the argument, well, if they're frums, obviously in terms of being frum and religiosity, something's working because they are f- they are religious. Like if the goal is to be an observant Jew, then the fact that they're observant means that it's working this way. But I, I think that we have to be able to be honest and see past the surface, that there are many people, and I'm not saying every person who's religious is str- is struggling with something, but there are many people who, who look observant and are observant. They are, they're not faking it. They're not liars.

1:22:11 Speaker 1 Right.

1:22:11 Speaker 2 They're not fake, you know, but, but you go underneath and not that you have to like feed them with questions and, and kind of entice them with, but you're talking to, to real things that go on. Like-

1:22:26 Speaker 1 They don't have to put effort in.

1:22:27 Speaker 2 Like this podcast-

1:22:28 Speaker 1 I mean, that's what Alter was saying, like a person who gets upset that he had a is somebody who's o- overestimating himself, right?

1:22:34 Speaker 2 Precisely. Precisely. Precisely. We're, we're human. Look, look-

1:22:38 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:22:39 Speaker 2 ... this, this podcast is, is, you know, what was i- is meant for other mostly frum people or Lubavitchers, and, you know, the, the resonance, uh, you know, a lot of people disagree with a lot of the things that I say or others say, and that's perfectly fine. If anything, that's, that's, that's h- hopefully what happens. You don't want people that disagree with everything, that, that agree with everything that you say. But people would be shocked to, to hear who's listening into these conversations. It's not just people on the, on the fringes. It's not just people that are, you know, uh, quote unquote, "open-minded," asking questions. It's, you know, people in the privacy of their house where no one's judging them for what they're reading or listening, people are going through these kind of questions or, or, or trying to find a feeling like, well, you know, what does it mean to, in the case of that, the, you know, the poem that you read a, a, a little bit ago, what does it mean to, to, you know, to, to, to love my wife, to love my, you know, uh, for a woman to love her husband, you know, even though we've been through so much? What does it mean to commit to a life where we actually know the price of that commitment? It's not just innocent bliss, right? What does that mean? People are at home asking that question. You know, I, I'm, I'm very lucky that in my work I get

1:24:07 Speaker 2 to meet people of all kinds and tell their stories or listen to their stories, and these things are very real, and very often it's people that are very religious who are going through, you know, it may be a little bit different language and a different way of presenting it, but it's very real. So, you know, you know, I, I, I, I under- I, I, I can sympathize with the idea that if it was for a religious audience, you would have reason to be scared that you know, if the Rosh Yeshivas are gonna be reading it- ... yes, you, you, you, I understand the fear, but I don't, I, I don't think the logic, like I, I, I think-

1:24:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, you could, you, you could, it's gonna be a good poem or not, depend, not dependent on the audience.

1:24:46 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:24:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:24:47 Speaker 2 And, and the f- the religious person has a need for it just as much as the other person, maybe even more, because how many other poems, poets can he read that are at least respectful of, of, you know, that there is a line, there is a line somewhere and, and, and, and it's not a free-for-all.

1:25:04 Speaker 1 Right. No, I mean, look, i- i- in, in actuality, all of, you know, the rabbis and mentors that I've encountered were supportive of me writing poetry and, and encouraged me to do so.

1:25:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:16 Speaker 1 I, I did not encounter anybody who told me that I should not do it.

1:25:19 Speaker 2 No, but you're talking about poetry that actually has like a, has an edge to it-

1:25:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:25:23 Speaker 2 ... as opposed to a more... Anyway, why, why don't w- I, I know time is, time is short. Why don't we make sure that we, we read that, that poem from the latest collection?

1:25:31 Speaker 1 Okay. So I, I mean, here's a couple poems that are more like directly incorporating Hasidus, and I guess i- in those cases, h- how do you make it not like a lesson?

1:25:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:44 Speaker 1 I don't know, maybe you have to try to incorporate humor or imagery, or again, maybe, maybe you just have to be intrigued by the idea yourself.

1:25:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:25:54 Speaker 1 A- and then just share, this is an interesting idea that I, that I saw. I'm not trying to shove it down your throat or like, uh-

1:26:00 Speaker 2 Right

1:26:00 Speaker 1 ... you know, I'm not trying to be pedantic or dogmatic and s- superimpose it on you, but it's just something interesting.

1:26:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:06 Speaker 1 So this poem is, um, probably was inspired from the Rabbi Shlomo Zalman of Liadi, the Moscow Rebbe.

1:26:13 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

1:26:14 Speaker 1 Which just talks about Havaya and Elokim.

1:26:16 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:26:17 Speaker 1 Um-

1:26:17 Speaker 2 Tzimtzum

1:26:17 Speaker 1 ... and the Tzimtzum, and really how the Havaya Elokim is really both just two s-sides, so to speak, of, of Hashem.

1:26:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:25 Speaker 1 And therefore, they're really one, and therefore, there's no true Helim from Hashem's perspective.

1:26:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:30 Speaker 1 Um, so it's, a lot of the poems, uh, in this book are in sections, so they're just like these small kind of different sections. Like in this case, I numbered them. Um, so I'll just read it. It's called Notes on the Tzimtzum. "One. Once on a bus from Jerusalem to Ein Gedi, I saw a man place his hand over his bare head and recite the blessing over water. Two. One can't use his hand as a head covering, the rabbis conclude, because one can't cover oneself with oneself." Three, since the divine hand hides that everything stems out of the divine, when God looks at the world like moss growing over moss, He sees only divinity. Four, the Jew without a yarmulke placed the cap on his water bottle and resumed watching a YouTube on black holes. Five, in this world, Hashem conceals His omnipresence, His infinite light, His power to hide eclipsing His power to reveal. Six, in this world, we ride buses through a divine concealment whose diameter is greater than infinity. We sip water beside a dam that holds back endless light. S- so I, I, I was-- I just think it's f- a fascinating idea, remarkable idea that, you know, the Koach Hagvur, Hashem's ability to hide himself actually is greater than the, the Koach of Bligvu.

1:28:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:15 Speaker 1 In order to be able to hide Bligvu, you ha- you have to be even greater than bli- than, than, than that, that power. It has something that's greater than our Ein Sof even.

1:28:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:23 Speaker 1 Which is to me is remo-- is just a fascinating, remarkable idea. So in a sense, just walking through a world that's the product of a tzimtzum is actually experiencing a level of divinity that's greater than had the tzimtzum not been.

1:28:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:36 Speaker 1 Although there's, there's no geulim by definition. There's no illumination, there's not necessarily inspiration, but you're basically walking through a reality that, that is, um, a manifestation of something even greater than the Koach of Bligvu.

1:28:49 Speaker 2 Right. I mean, that's, that's precisely the point of that ma'amar, if I remember correctly. Somebody actually reached out to me recently, um, um, a listener of the podcast, and, uh, had a question about Vedayita Moscow. I, I don't know where on the podcast I indicated that I that I-

1:29:05 Speaker 1 That you're an expert on the matter

1:29:06 Speaker 2 ... that I... No. Forget about expert. That I, that I'm at all a person to ask about it. But, you know, when, when he asked the question, I was thinking about it. He was asking about the m- the, the whole mashal of Rav and Talmud and-

1:29:17 Speaker 1 Right

1:29:17 Speaker 2 ... you know, the, the point of the ma'amar is not to affirm that from God's perspective, this world is not a stirite zavchas. That is, that's God's business. That, that, that, that makes a lot of sense in many ways, right? Um, the K- you know, Koach Hagvur, it's, it's all good. The point of the ma'amar, at least the way I remember it, is that f- also from the person's perspective-

1:29:40 Speaker 1 Right. Right

1:29:40 Speaker 2 ... also from the world's perspective, in truth, this world-

1:29:44 Speaker 1 It's not a Helen

1:29:45 Speaker 2 ... in truth, it's not a Helen. You may not see it that way.

1:29:48 Speaker 1 Right.

1:29:48 Speaker 2 But like the Talmud who, in the mashal that he understands-

1:29:51 Speaker 1 The mashal, yeah. Right

1:29:51 Speaker 2 ... there is in fact the nimshal. He may not see it, but it is there on history.

1:29:56 Speaker 1 Actually, this, this, this year's Breslov Agada, it's, uh, it's Tes Vav, that's the-

1:29:59 Speaker 2 That's what it's about

1:30:00 Speaker 1 ... we're gonna talk about.

1:30:00 Speaker 2 I have a God-

1:30:01 Speaker 1 He's, he mentioned that idea. He mentioned that the mashal of the Rav and Talmud, and how in the, in the mashal is really all the pratim of the nimshal.

1:30:07 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:30:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:30:08 Speaker 2 So, like, to me, that you're talking about the poem, right, it's not just that we know it to be true because as a state, this is what it says.

1:30:17 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:30:17 Speaker 2 And so we know this to be true. Okay, let's pack it up. It's like, no, no, it's true on our terms as well, even if we don't know it yet.

1:30:25 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:30:25 Speaker 2 But it, but it-

1:30:26 Speaker 1 Right. It's there.

1:30:26 Speaker 2 It's there.

1:30:27 Speaker 1 It's accessible.

1:30:28 Speaker 2 It-

1:30:28 Speaker 1 If we knew how to decode it.

1:30:29 Speaker 2 Right. Right. But-

1:30:29 Speaker 1 And eventually we will, you know.

1:30:31 Speaker 2 And we-

1:30:31 Speaker 1 We have to, we have to

1:30:33 Speaker 2 But even if, even if you won't-

1:30:34 Speaker 1 But, yeah

1:30:35 Speaker 2 ... get to it in your lifetime-

1:30:36 Speaker 1 Right

1:30:36 Speaker 2 ... it's not a futile task, or it's not a frivolous-

1:30:39 Speaker 1 Right

1:30:39 Speaker 2 ... task because it's, it's there.

1:30:42 Speaker 1 Right.

1:30:42 Speaker 2 It's there.

1:30:43 Speaker 1 I, I, and also I think it's like we've been speaking about difficult situations, um, the, I think that's sp- this speaks to that also. We are in the post-tzimtzum reality. The post-tzimtzum reality is really a, a greater divine energy than the pre-tzimtzum reality.

1:31:01 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:31:02 Speaker 1 The Koach Hag-Hagvur is even greater.

1:31:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:04 Speaker 1 The Anochi Hastar Astir pale-- In the Hastar Astir is the Anochi.

1:31:08 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:09 Speaker 1 So I, I think writing about human struggles seems to make sense then.

1:31:12 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:31:13 Speaker 1 And, and, and, you know, to, trying to insist that there is the Anochi in the Hastar Astir.

1:31:18 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Provided that you struggle against- ... against the concealment, then your, the con... Like, your title of your new book, "The Concealment of Endless Light," how, how was a poem like that, which is clearly a more, uh, Hasidic poem, how was that received by, by your, your, your literati audience?

1:31:36 Speaker 1 Uh, I haven't heard too much, but, uh, I think it's, it's an interesting idea. I think that, I think that people, when they learn about Hasidus or they hear Hasidus, it's really very s- so rich and fascinating-

1:31:48 Speaker 2 Right

1:31:48 Speaker 1 ... and, and, and intuitive and counterintuitive in ways, right? That, that I think is just fascinating. When, when I was a student, uh, to go back to the Professor Tony Hoagland, he, he told me that I'm really at a great advantage over my peers because I have, uh, you know, a, a very, um, deep resource to draw upon, whereas-

1:32:08 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:32:08 Speaker 1 ... maybe my peers are kind of adrift.

1:32:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:32:11 Speaker 1 They don't have a tradition necessarily.

1:32:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:32:14 Speaker 1 They're not invested in the tradition, so I could always tap into this, this kind of tradition.

1:32:18 Speaker 2 That's really interesting. I mean, the famous line, I think, by Vonnegut, that literature eventually disappears up its own you know what. You know? There's something good about having an anchor outside-

1:32:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Right

1:32:30 Speaker 2 ... outside of literature.

1:32:31 Speaker 1 Outside of literature, right. Yeah.

1:32:32 Speaker 2 But, but I, I think, I think there's also something very interesting where in a way you're p- you're, you're saying poetry has to be about experience, right, and not about, uh, about narrative. But in a way, when you're a person who learns Hasidus and trying to, tries to live Hasidus, in a way I think the uft of Hasidus is that the, the meaning is the experience in a way, right? Like trying to understand Vedayita Moscow and what tzimtzum means, that is part of the experience. That's the whole point, right? So in a way, like that seems to be like the challenge that you're grappling with now, which is how- Not just let me talk about life and refer t- uh, like refer to Hasidus, but let me talk about Hasidus as an experience

1:33:16 Speaker 1 Right. Y- I, I think I have another poem that-

1:33:18 Speaker 2 Right. By, by all means

1:33:19 Speaker 1 ... r- r- relate to that. S- some similar concepts. Um, okay. Um, so it's called "Morning Prayer and the Waste Management Company." And so it, it, it takes lines from Hasidus and then parallels it, juxtaposes it with this, the experience that I'm, uh, I'm having in the moment. So it starts with the Hasidus: "Did God withdraw to make room for the universe or merely carve out an open space in his infinite light? Asked the Hasidic discourse I'd studied that morning, standing at the open window, wrapped in a prayer shawl and tefillin, when the sanitation workers arrived in their blue monogrammed overalls. The men lifted the overstuffed cans above their heads and emptied the contents. 'Only the light was removed,' the discourse answered. 'God's essence is at home equally in the sacred and the profane, finite and infinite, and is therefore always present.' The sanitation workers dropped the gray cans upside down on the muddy grass. Then, in inverted fashion, the world was created. The way the wax indents where the signet ring protrudes, and protrudes where the ring indents. The way the highest brick falls farthest from the base of the wall. That which appears ordinary, lowly, is rooted more deeply in the divine. I turned the next page in my prayer book. The sanitation workers hung on to metal handles and floated in the air."

1:35:08 Speaker 2 I love that. I love that. I, I love the, I love the way you, you ended it, "Floated in the air." Yeah. Yeah.

1:35:17 Speaker 1 So that poem kind of came about, I was like really just like davening, for whatever reason, the davening at home.

1:35:25 Speaker 2 That's it, this whole thing.

1:35:28 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, uh-

1:35:29 Speaker 2 I went, "Here, here we thought that we could trust your poetry"

1:35:32 Speaker 1 ... actually, 'cause I, 'cause I was davening shul for so long, and I l-- and I was doing Hasidus, and then I-- shul was over, and then I came home to finish. So-

1:35:39 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:35:40 Speaker 1 So-

1:35:40 Speaker 2 Revelatory times.

1:35:41 Speaker 1 So-

1:35:42 Speaker 2 Revelatory times

1:35:43 Speaker 1 ... a- a- and, and I was like, maybe I'm learning something about this, the idea of, you know, the choice of the seal-

1:35:48 Speaker 2 Right

1:35:48 Speaker 1 ... and, and Alter Rebbe, um-

1:35:51 Speaker 2 Sefer HaMa'aseh HaShachar HaTefillah

1:35:52 Speaker 1 ... Sefer HaMa'aseh HaTefillah. A- a- and, and then, like, I was, the window was open, and then all of a sudden the garbage men came. And it was just kind of, uh, you know, it was a real takyon, chain takyon, moment with the garbage men.

1:36:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:05 Speaker 1 So, and it just kind of... It just, I guess, it kind of spoke to me about, like, the strangeness and absurdity of life. At, at a certain point, you could, like, think, like, like the, the Rebbe says in the Parashat Yitro sikha, like quoting oth- other sources, like you, it, when you, you're like really immersed in Hasidus, the, the f- the fact that there's a world becomes a question, and you only know that there's a world 'cause there's a Pasuk, "Bereishit Barah Elokim."

1:36:31 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:36:32 Speaker 1 So, so like, if you, whatever, you happen to be immersed in a ma'amar at that moment, right?

1:36:36 Speaker 2 That's all, that's it.

1:36:38 Speaker 1 A- and then all of a sudden... A- and that becomes, like, kind of like, at least for that moment, you're really immersed into that psychic reality, and then all of a sudden you're-

1:36:45 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:36:45 Speaker 1 ... you're jolted out of it, and you see these garbage men coming, you, like, maybe think of it in the context of a, of a ma'amar or, or, or like a-

1:36:53 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Th- that's the ulti- the ultimate goal, right? Is, is that, is that you are so inval-- you are so, you are so anchored in that reality that Hasidus talks about that, that the only, the only way you know for certain the world is here is because Right.

1:37:08 Speaker 1 Right

1:37:08 Speaker 2 ... like, uh, that's the only real proof that the world is here. It-- that's how much your senses have re-- been reoriented, like, and, and what you know for real and, and not real. It's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, that, that idea, that idea of, of the, you know, the Sefer HaMa'aseh HaShachar HaTefillah, it was, it was, was in, um, it was in this past week's, uh, a few weeks ago-

1:37:31 Speaker 1 Oh, Yosef, yeah. Yosef and Yehuda

1:37:32 Speaker 2 ... yeah, you know, Yosef and Yehuda. And what I found i- in Torah of Vayigash, and what I found fascinating about that, and I think it ties into our conversation, uh, is that what's beautiful about that ma'amar is that there's, sorry. There's, there's Yosef, there's Yosef who, there's Yosef who represents, um, who represents, uh, Mima'al el Mata, uh, or the way the world is now, Seder Hishtalshelus. And then there's Yehuda who represents the, the upside-down version of it, where, where Dayanim is higher and, and Malchus is higher, Eishes Chayil, Tzedekah and so on, like the ma'amar explains. But in a way, at least... But the ma'amar also connects the two versions of reality to the Mishkan and the Beit HaMikdash, which to me told me, at least the way I read it, was don't think for a moment that you can discount either. Like a lot of times we say, "Oh, well, well this is, this is S- just Seder Hishtalshelus, but really it's, it's higher. Really, the whole thing is reversed. This is just how things look, but really it's..." And in a way that, you know, th- that, it, it, that does challenge the way you look at the world, but y- you're just replacing one, you're, you're replacing one hierarchy with another hierarchy. You're replacing one perspective with another perspective.

1:38:54 Speaker 1 Right. The two-

1:38:54 Speaker 2 What that ma'amar is saying is you have to have both. You have to-

1:38:57 Speaker 1 Right

1:38:57 Speaker 2 ... b- you have to have both, and both live in this kind of tension with one another. And of course, that makes sense. Seder Hishtalshelus isn't... Seder Hishtalshelus is, is, is no, uh, it's not, it's not chump change. It's a real thing, right?

1:39:07 Speaker 1 Right. We were learning Pesach HaLyah in the morning, the, the Rebbe's, and it, I was just saying that this Dasta Alyon and Dasta Tachton-

1:39:13 Speaker 2 Right. Precisely

1:39:13 Speaker 1 ... both are equally real and equally true.

1:39:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:39:16 Speaker 1 They're, they're both different sides of the, uh, uh, of the, uh, of Hashem's ratzon.

1:39:20 Speaker 2 R- right. Right. And, and, and, and in a way, that, that is, that, that can cause, like in the story of Yosef and Yehuda, that can cause tremendous tension and alienation, right? Like, at the end of the day, that ma'amar is talking about Vayigash Elav Yehuda, Yehuda approaches Yosef not knowing for a moment that he's his brother. It's a s- it's a king. The ultimate alienation is that you see your brother as a king, not as a brother, right? Or you approach your brother as a servant is the ultimate form of alienation because, because it's, it's very hard to, to hold these different truths in, i- i- you know, in, i-i- at, at once, right? But, but, but in the end, in, in the end, that that is what, that is what it, that is what it is. That, that is what it is. Uh, anyway, I just, I, I, I think it's, it's very interesting that, um, that it would connect, it would connect, uh, to, to her that way. But I, I, I think I think that's very much the conversation or at least what I'm, what I'm gaining from this conversation is that, is that, you know, people naturally, like this is not s- I'm not... I, I, I completely understand it, that people want an answer. You know? So if it's not this way, tell me another way. If it, it, you know, so if, if, if this isn't working, give me another way that does work, right? If, if, if

1:40:42 Speaker 2 it's not like it says it over here, then tell me how it sh- you know, where it s- how it says it differently somewhere else. And, you know, ultimately, when you're writing poetry or you're, you're, you're, you're, you're doing any kind of writing or any kind of creative, um, uh, creative project, there is no right answer. That's a whole, that's the whole point, right? You're working in between. The, the, you're, you're working in the space where, where you don't have this kind of definitive answer, and you have to live with it. You have to live with it, but ultimately, that is what makes a poem or an idea come alive, right? That, that, that, that a- that, that ability or, or just insistence on, on not reaching for-

1:41:28 Speaker 3 Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, that's, yeah, that's why for me poetry is more enjoyable than math where there's one right answer. I, I, I think s- in certain ways, you know, chiddush there's a pshat and a mamar.

1:41:39 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:40 Speaker 3 But also, but since what we're talking about is so abstract to us, it, it also could ha- has a, has an element of subjectivity to it.

1:41:46 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:41:47 Speaker 3 Because, because people are thinking different things when they're learning these concepts, even if they're talking about the same words, v- very much so because it's so abstract-

1:41:55 Speaker 2 Sure

1:41:55 Speaker 3 ... when you're talking about it chiddush and... So I, I kind of, uh, as much as there's the, there's the osios of what the mamar says, and there's the pshat, and you, you could have a reading comprehension error, there, there always did seem to be more creativity in, in, in, in a mamar. Again, you can't, you can't superimpose your own, uh, understanding that's wrong. There is-

1:42:17 Speaker 2 Right

1:42:17 Speaker 3 ... there is, you know, misunderstanding the mamar, but the, the, the dis- the topics themselves are, are, are abstract and, you know, lend themselves to creativity, I think.

1:42:28 Speaker 2 Wonderful. Anyway, thank you very much for doing this.

1:42:30 Speaker 3 Okay. My pleasure. My pleasure.

1:42:31 Speaker 2 Um, this is the new, the new, the new collection, The Concealment of Endless Light. This is the third collection, right?

1:42:37 Speaker 3 Correct, yes.

1:42:38 Speaker 2 And where do people find this then?

1:42:39 Speaker 3 Oh, you could get it on Amazon or-

1:42:40 Speaker 2 On Amazon

1:42:40 Speaker 3 ... at the publisher, auroranbooks.com.

1:42:43 Speaker 2 So The Concealment of Endless Light by Yeshua November. Um, I, uh, all, I, I haven't read the latest one, but the first two, I can tell you that, uh, I read, I think, all, all the poems in those two collections, and you won't regret it. And you don't have to be a, a po- a poetry snob-

1:42:59 Speaker 3 No

1:42:59 Speaker 2 ... to appreciate it.

1:43:00 Speaker 3 In, in fact, I, I m- I've been accused of being radically clear. And one time I had the-

1:43:06 Speaker 2 How, how, how disappointing.

1:43:07 Speaker 3 I, I, I, I ha- I had the... There was one time that I had the honor, if, if that's what you would call it, of being, having a poem published in the, the, uh, the New York Times, uh, Sunday ma- uh, Sunday magazine.

1:43:18 Speaker 2 Which one was that?

1:43:19 Speaker 3 It, it's... That one's called, um, can't even remember what it's called. But-

1:43:24 Speaker 2 Oh, so it's from, it's in the latest one?

1:43:24 Speaker 3 It's in the, it's in the second book. Um, Prayer. I think it's just called Prayer. And when they introduced the poem, they s- the, the, the author that introduced it said that my poems are radically clear.

1:43:37 Speaker 2 As, as, as a pejorative?

1:43:38 Speaker 3 No, uh, I guess as a compliment, but- ... but, but that, that, that relative to other poetry, the poems are very clear.

1:43:46 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, sure.

1:43:46 Speaker 3 And, and very accessible. Very accessible.

1:43:48 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, sure.

1:43:49 Speaker 3 So, so, uh, that's a good point that you're making. A lot of times when they think about poetry, they're taught poetry as something that's like a riddle that you have to decode. And probably that's because they were taught whatever poetry they encountered was poetry from, like, hundreds of years ago.

1:44:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:44:05 Speaker 3 W- and the style was maybe perhaps like that, or it was just using a different kind of, um, vernacular, um, different diction. But a lot of contemporary poetry is very accessible. It's almost like a story, just very compressed. Um, so yes, I was ac-accused of, of being radically clear.

1:44:24 Speaker 2 So let's end off with that poem. Let's just end off-

1:44:26 Speaker 3 Oh, that one?

1:44:26 Speaker 2 ... with a poem with Prayer. Why not? You, you mentioned it. Let's just end off with, with, with one, with one last poem.

1:44:33 Speaker 3 It's actually not even my favorite poem.

1:44:35 Speaker 2 Ah, but you mentioned it.

1:44:36 Speaker 3 Okay. I-I'll mention that one.

1:44:38 Speaker 2 If there's another one that you, is there another one that you'd like to end off with?

1:44:40 Speaker 3 Uh, oh, no, I mean, I don't know, for a different, a different one. This one actually is about, um, the, um, the P- the Tree of Life shooting. I'll end with that one. Uh, and it's, um, it's called There's Only One Story. It's also in, uh, in sections.

1:44:59 Speaker 2 This is also in the last volume.

1:45:00 Speaker 3 Yeah, this is The Concealment of Endless Light. So it's called There Is Only One Story, on the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. One, there are always two stories, that of the body, that of the soul, plus the story of Cousin Reva, who, arriving late that morning, was instructed by an officer to wait things out at the nearby public library. "I feel guilty about not dying with my friends," she said the next day. Two, it is October 27th, 1988. My friend Robert plays a Wiffle ball, plays Wiffle ball in his backyard, abutting Tree of Life synagogue. It is October 27th, 2018. A stranger passes through unlocked double doors. Blocks away, Robert's son begins his bar mitzvah portion, Abraham inviting angels, wayfarers into his open tent.

1:46:05 Speaker 4 Perhaps, Robert postulates, the soul of my recently deceased father interceded on high, causing the news to be hidden until his grandson had closed the Torah scroll. And in the afternoon, the scroll is reopened, and we read, And Abraham came to eulogize over Sarah, and to cry for her. And according to the hidden story, the one the mystics tell, Abraham represents the soul, and Sarah the body. Three. Now it is night. Half a block from the apartment where, seventeen years earlier, my wife and I lived when first wed, Jews of Pittsburgh stand in the rain holding candles. Eleven souls ascend to the region of mystery, then swoop down to hover incandescently over their former lives. Away from the cameras and fanfare, eleven bodies are ushered through burial rituals, pottery shards placed over twenty-two eyes, eleven mouths. Water poured to purify physical forms that had until recently housed souls, whose last act on earth was to whisper a prayer. Four. There is only one story, say the mystics. The souls of the Jewish people throughout Jewish history form one larger body. The body bears more wounds than we want to recall. No one can explain how it limps forward, but has not faltered. Thanks.

1:47:48 Speaker 5 Thank you very much. Thank you. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Soranada Bachar and is used with their permission.