Ep. 47 // “Agree To Disagree” w/ Rabbi Yaakov Winner

00:00 Speaker 1 But that can 揚げ席 them 席 my meshpocha. But that can sit on of ain't ish.

00:05 Speaker 2 Yeah.

00:06 Speaker 1 And, and the Klementchuker with the Neviler, with the Nikolaever, you know, each one has to be able to sit and, and realize this is another whole subject agree to disagree.

00:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

00:17 Speaker 1 That's it. There was that Neviler, they are Neviler. There was that Klementchuker, they are Klementchuker. There was that Nikolaever, they are Nikolaever. Each one has to be true to Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar, each one has different ways-

00:29 Speaker 2 Yeah

00:30 Speaker 1 ...how you bring out your Iskasvus.

00:35 Speaker 2 Welcome to "Homesick for Lubavitch," a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Alfsin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here in the holy days of Tishrei in Crown Heights with Rabbi Yaakov Winner, the Mashpia in YG, famous YG, Yeshivat Gedola of Australia, which, uh, for me was the first yeshiva I encountered as a young boy coming from Hong Kong to Australia. Still remember very vividly the... It's a library, you know, where the

01:23 Speaker 1 I came to Australia in Nisan tov shementes.

02:27 Speaker 2 Were you a Mashpia before then already?

02:28 Speaker 1 No. No. I taught Chassidis in Adar Torah for a while.

02:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

02:33 Speaker 1 I taught some Chassidis when I was a bocher on shlichus to California. Actually, your uncle-

02:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

02:38 Speaker 1 ...Levi was in, was in California in high school, and I taught him.

02:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

02:43 Speaker 1 He was in the class.

02:43 Speaker 2 You were a bocher then?

02:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

02:45 Speaker 2 Ah, so bochrim used to do that back in the day also, teaching and filling out positions.

02:50 Speaker 1 If they needed.

02:51 Speaker 2 Ah. Yeah, it makes sense. It's the same, same problem then as we have now, uh, or the same, same need. Uh, did you, did you expect to be a Mashpia growing up? Was that something that you saw in your future?

03:05 Speaker 1 Um, I always enjoyed Baruch Hashem doing Chassidis.

03:09 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:09 Speaker 1 And I had a geshmack in it. And when I was in kollel, I got a couple offers to become a Mashpia.

03:16 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

03:16 Speaker 1 So I figured that's probably what my shlichus is.

03:21 Speaker 2 Uh, so y- that was gonna be my next question. You saw, you saw being a Mashpia as a form of shlichus?

03:27 Speaker 1 Definitely.

03:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

03:30 Speaker 1 When I, I wrote to the Rebbe that, um, the people in, in Australia, Rabbi Groner, olav Shalom, Rabbi Yitzchak Dovid Groner, was Rav Chaim Gutnick, Rabbi Yossel Gutnick, shia yichie. So they all came to New York, and they met with me and spoke to me, and they offered me to come to Yeshivat Gedola.

03:48 Speaker 2 There was no Mashpia beforehand, huh?

03:50 Speaker 1 There was no Mashpia. There was diff- Rabbi Avraham Ber Glasofsky was a mashgiach chassidis, but only part of the day. Rabbi Avraham Glick, even today-

03:58 Speaker 2 Right

03:58 Speaker 1 ...is teaching chassidis at night.

04:00 Speaker 2 Right.

04:00 Speaker 1 But there wasn't anybody with the title Mashpia.

04:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

04:04 Speaker 1 So I wrote to the Rebbe, "Haim linsoya beshalichus b'torah Mashpia beYeshivat Gedola of Melbourne."

04:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

04:11 Speaker 1 And Rebbe underlined the word linsoya and the rest. And I'm there since then, Baruch Hashem. That's shlichus.

04:20 Speaker 2 One second. Why didn't he underline beshalichus?

04:27 Speaker 1 I don't know. Tachlis, that's it.

04:30 Speaker 2 Tachlis, you gotta go. You gotta go. But he di- he didn't, he didn't, he didn't disagree with the vort of shlichus.

04:38 Speaker 1 Right.

04:39 Speaker 2 Okay.

04:40 Speaker 1 There's a famous story with Rabbi Shlomo Azachi. I don't know the details, but, uh, but he wrote to the Rebbe something about this, if this is considered shlichus, being a Mashpia.

04:48 Speaker 2 Right.

04:48 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe answered him, "Yes, I don't know the details." He says it many times. I forgot the

06:08 Speaker 2 Like, L'Chaim is talking it's not shlichus. L'Chaim is talking it's not shlichus. Who's, who's going to teach?

06:14 Speaker 1 So-

06:15 Speaker 2 Say, saying why do we have to... What, what, what, what, what's, what are we trying to, uh, get to with, with, with, with, with, with encompassing these things in shlichus? I, I, I'm not against it, I'm just trying to understand.

06:28 Speaker 1 Okay. Um, I, I just wanna say in general, everything I say is not necessarily, you know, 100%, someone could disagree what I'm saying is-

06:36 Speaker 2 Yes. That, that-

06:37 Speaker 1 So-

06:37 Speaker 2 ... that is the first disclaimer- ... on the podcast.

06:40 Speaker 1 Thank you very much. The second thing is, you know, like when it comes to answers, there's the... It could take a long time, but get ready, get set, go. So first of all, you have to understand, in the mems, the Rebbe was speaking about shlichus like you cannot imagine. Like for example, we'll say mem zayin. I was by a farbrengen Chai Sara, Tov Shemer Zayin was the Kinus Hashluchim, and the Rebbe gave out a cry by farbrengen. "Eden, Speak to the nations of the world about Judaism."

07:07 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:07 Speaker 1 Like it was all about shlichus, and the whole sicha is about shlichus, and the Chassidish Rebbe in shlichus, and he's giving out the cry. We're responding to the cry. Be a part of the revolution.

07:18 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:19 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe is saying, "Go out, conquer the world for shlichus, for Yiddishkeit." Same with Chai Sara mem zayin. Vayishlach mem zayin, similar whole farbrengen is about shlichus, shlichus. That's the chivas hador. That's what everyone has to be doing, and there was another farbrengen, Pinchas.

07:35 Speaker 2 So th- Wait.

07:36 Speaker 1 So, so-

07:36 Speaker 2 So, so, so just to locate, you're at 770 Rocher this time?

07:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

07:40 Speaker 1 But what I'm saying is, there was a farbrengen Pinchas that every single person of this generation is kiryaned, kiryaned. „You have the orders to go out in shlichus and, and do what you have to do." Lech Lecha mem tes. I'm just saying, so Shabbos after Shabbos, the Rebbe was talking about shlichus. So, you know and all the brachas-

08:00 Speaker 2 This was new? And this was new? It wasn't... This is new to the mems?

08:04 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I ca- I'm telling you what I remember. The sicha, uh, told us, I think, mem ches.

08:10 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:10 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's talking about Vayitnacha. So it's brachas and brachas. I have to say that for a normal bachur sitting by farbrengen, being by the Rebbe's farbrengens Shabbos after Shabbos, and he's speaking about shlichus, it's like you're telling yourself you have to be an idiot not to, not to go on shlichus.

08:25 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:26 Speaker 1 Now, one other very important point is, in this system, you become a... You're a bachur, you go on shlichus, yeah? The bachur.

08:33 Speaker 2 Right.

08:33 Speaker 1 So, so what's the difference between before you went on shlichus and after you went on shlichus? So I would say that you feel it as a deeper connection to the Rebbe.

08:44 Speaker 2 Right.

08:44 Speaker 1 So that's the answer to your question. One answer is, you're sitting there week after week, and the Rebbe's saying shlichus. And the second answer is, you want that deeper relationship that you feel that the Rebbe has with shluchim. There's a Chassid, and then the shluchim. And, and you feel it. And it, it's part of a... It's a deeper bond. The Rebbe "" for the shluchim. I'm a shliach of the Rebbe. I'm just saying. It, it's a chayav and it's a zchus, and you want that.

09:16 Speaker 2 Hmm. So in your mind, if, if, if you didn't have, for example, the story of Shlome Zachar or if you didn't have this, this precedent of, of a, a mashpia being considered a shliach, or the dogma, if you were a mashpia here locally in Carnitzers, you can't say, "Vas, vas, vaiter," you know, is, is, is more connected. You would... You, you, you wouldn't be open to being a mashpia? Like, what, what I-

09:47 Speaker 1 I, I think it goes without saying that it is a shlichus. I know there's a story with-

09:51 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

09:51 Speaker 1 ... with Kinus Hashluchim, with Rabbi Tanim, um, you know, whatever, that he, he didn't give some people the, the Hmm. I believe that person's a shliach of the Rebbe, and he looks at the Rebbe as a shliach. Now, is there a ma'alah in official shlichus? Of course The rabbi said that many times, the people that are rich me. Okay, but we're not talking about that. We're saying in general, a shliach meant you s- like the rabbi said, everyone's a shliach, mekukta v'dim rebbes of the baalubas. But we're talking honest over here. You understand? That's the main point. You're honest person that sees the rabbi as your boss. The rabbi is the boss of your life.

12:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

12:33 Speaker 1 You're a shliach of the rabbi, and you're living your life as the rabbi's undercover agent on Kingston Avenue. Maybe not even, uh, undercover.

12:43 Speaker 2 Right.

12:44 Speaker 1 That's the main point.

12:50 Speaker 2 I, I guess, I guess the question that comes from that is, um, when, when you loosen the definitions of something to, to be more inclusive or t- you know, just to mean more, t- to be more encompassing, um, I feel like you do like-

13:11 Speaker 1 Okay

13:11 Speaker 2 ... uh, what, like, what, what's the core of it? You know what I mean?

13:13 Speaker 1 So-

13:14 Speaker 2 What's, what, what, what's, what's the core of it? You're talking, uh, I, I know you're a Mashpia, like you're talking a little bit about this past or something .

13:19 Speaker 1 Okay, so now-

13:20 Speaker 2 What are some of the things-

13:20 Speaker 1 Okay, so now we go, we go deeper.

13:23 Speaker 2 Deeper.

13:23 Speaker 1 Deeper, I really believe a real shliach has to be 24/7.

13:28 Speaker 2 Okay.

13:28 Speaker 1 24/7. And if people get into a discussion... I, I just wanna give, again, a disclaimer. This is so not important right now in a way. I hope you forgive me, the audience because I, I didn't think we'd get into this whole thing, but anyways.

13:42 Speaker 2 I didn't plan it.

13:43 Speaker 1 Okay.

13:44 Speaker 2 I, I'm not ambushing you.

13:45 Speaker 1 Okay, good. So let me just say, deeper, I believe the rabbi's view is a shliach is 24/7 shlichas.

13:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:52 Speaker 1 And what does that mean? And how could you explain it to a simple person? Simple. Let's say you're, you live in Eretz Yisrael. If you live in Eretz Yisrael, you're already a target. Somebody can kill you. Look what happened to Chabad Islam last year.

14:03 Speaker 2 Right.

14:04 Speaker 1 So there's a shtukim mesirus nefesh in the etzem zach that you're living in Eretz Yisrael. There's no question about that. But even somebody in Eretz Yisrael, if you ask him a question, is there a difference between somebody who's a civilian and military? Of course there is.

14:17 Speaker 2 Right.

14:17 Speaker 1 The military is on the front lines, he's fighting the war, and he put himself in a position that he's on call 24/7.

14:23 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:24 Speaker 1 So it's the same thing over here. You have people that-

14:26 Speaker 2 Like you, you can't buy insurance. You can't... No, seriously, you can't buy health insurance or life insurance if you're a soldier in the army. It's, it's just, it's-

14:34 Speaker 1 Okay

14:35 Speaker 2 ... it's provable.

14:36 Speaker 1 Okay.

14:37 Speaker 2 Uh, degree.

14:37 Speaker 1 So, so in other words, if we really wanna talk the real, real definition of shlichas, the way I think the rabbi really wanted the, the, the what's called with the real title shlichas, it means you're 24/7 avodas hakodesh. You're in the military.

14:54 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. I, I, exactly-

14:56 Speaker 1 And you're living a life of public service.

14:58 Speaker 2 I so... And so now I think you're drilling down more because, you know, somebody once told me, "Oh, look, this podcast is, is a form of shlichas." And I said, "Absolutely not." Why not? Why don't... No, it's not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not offended by you saying that. I'm not, I'm not uncomfortable with you. I'm not uncomforta- It's more I, I grew up in a Chabad house. I grew up with parents who are on shlichas on the other side of the world from where they grew up. Um, I, as a child or as a, as a, as a young boy, I, I knew only half of what they were struggling with, and that's to me what shlichas is. And they're not the only ones that I've saw. I've seen other shluchim, like, you know, sh- shlichas is, to me, like you said, um, it's a setting aside of priorities. Like you don't prioritize... You, you, your, your priorities are not your own. The priorities that are given to you, and you live your life around that entirely. That's what shlichas is. So the fact that I have a podcast that some people enjoy, and that sometimes I go out of my way to do, to me, uh, you start calling that shlichas, then, then, you know, everything is shlichas, and then nothing is. That, that's why, that's why I'm pushing on it.

16:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:10 Speaker 2 So I, I think it's important. So, so, so, okay, so let's go back to the conversation.

16:13 Speaker 1 Let me take a pause for a second. I wanna give you a bracha.

16:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

16:15 Speaker 1 It's a new year.

16:16 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

16:16 Speaker 1 So there's new am shachas, ech chodesh. So I think it's a big zechus, this whole word of homesick for Lubavitch, that, that every time we say the word Lubavitch, and any time there's an occasion we could talk about the Rabbeim, it's a zechus. So l'chaim, l'chaim.

16:31 Speaker 2 Amen.

16:31 Speaker 1 Baruch atah Adonei Eloheinu melech haolam shehakol nihya bidvaro.

16:33 Speaker 2 Amen.

16:35 Speaker 1 We're saying l'chaim on a shakel, but it should be a new year with new energies, and you should go michayel el chayil in great ways.

16:42 Speaker 2 Amen. Thank you. Thank you. I, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not... I wasn't uncomfortable with a p- someone saying that. It's more that I, I'm uncomfortable with, with, with, with messing with words. And I-

16:53 Speaker 1 Like definitions, clarity.

16:54 Speaker 2 I, I think, I think it serves everybody. I think it's good to know what's what. It's good to know what's what and, and to know where you know, where you stand and where those things stand. And it's better to know as the houses by them because at least that gives you something to strive for as opposed to, to just try to envelop everything into your own, you know, whatever, you know, whatever I'm doing is what this thing is and, and, and then, you know, we don't know, we don't know where we are anymore.

17:20 Speaker 1 I agree with you totally. I wanna bring an example. Bechol when you have a discussion, you have to define the terms.

17:25 Speaker 2 Yes.

17:26 Speaker 1 The Alter Rebbe in Pelek-Alef of Tanya. Tanya's amazing.

17:30 Speaker 2 Yes.

17:30 Speaker 1 So one of the things in, in Pelek-Alef, straight away the lesson, he s- says, "V'chad me'yan ba'alma," if someone's gonna come and ask a question, "How could you say that a, that a tzaddik is this?"

17:40 Speaker 2 Right.

17:41 Speaker 1 He just says, "M'ta britkeit." That what's all shem hamushol.

17:44 Speaker 2 Shem hamushol.

17:44 Speaker 1 The shem ha'toeh, the real thing is I'll show you one, two, three places.

17:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

17:48 Speaker 1 So it doesn't make a difference what it says in all the other places, but this is the real definition.

17:52 Speaker 2 Right.

17:53 Speaker 1 So you see besides for the britkeit, the Alter Rebbe, but we see that in order to get into a discussion about anything, we gotta define the terms.

18:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:00 Speaker 1 So that's why it's very, very important.

18:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true.

18:05 Speaker 1 And also-

18:05 Speaker 2 E- even, even though in that regard, and I think this is, this supports our case over here. Even though in that regard, by doing what he's doing, he's not making it easier on anybody He's making the tzadik impossible, right? He's not ... No, he's not, like, saying that the essence of chapter of tzadik is everyone's a tzadik. Not

18:29 Speaker 1 Exactly.

18:30 Speaker 2 This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is a Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvlamedia. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basay Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years to see this world as God sees it, as his garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding onto a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad House and community. Share the message and vision of Basay Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com.

19:15 Speaker 1 I love what you're saying right now because this might, we might reach this point of striving for excellence, demanding high- more.

19:23 Speaker 2 Right.

19:23 Speaker 1 It's, it's a language which is

19:25 Speaker 2 Yeah

19:25 Speaker 1 ... from the dialogue in general.

19:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:30 Speaker 1 And what you're talking about is let's stop diluting it-

19:33 Speaker 2 Yeah

19:33 Speaker 1 ... or dumbing it down. We gotta get to the real thing.

19:36 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, that, that, that is the, the, the irony or the, the k- paradox of, of, of, of today's times, where on one hand, on one hand, you know, it seems like people are doing their own thing and they're not, you know, they're not, they're not following orders. They're not, they're, people are looser. They're... But on the other hand, and in many ways it goes together, precisely because people are not just going with the team or going with the flow, they need and they respect definitions. You know, tell me what it tell me what it is, and either I'll get to it or I won't. But, but let me know what it is. Don't, don't hack me a ... you know, I'm not interested in, in, in, in, in fluff. And I, and I think that is a growing phenomenon, uh, in Lubavitch, but in general. In general, people uh, uh, you know, when, when, when, when, when, when things are coasting along, when society's coasting along, when your community's coasting along, when i- you asked me what the podcast is about. When identity coasts along, it's not so negia. You say this, you say that, gezunteheit, whatever. I'm just going with the flow. But when I, when I'm not going with the flow, or I feel that I can't go with the flow, or I think the flow is nutty, and now I'm kind of stuck on my own, the next thing I need to know is what's what. I need to know

20:55 Speaker 2 what's what.

20:56 Speaker 1 Clarity.

20:57 Speaker 2 Clarity, exactly. And like you brought Tanya, I mean, I... It's something that I thought about is the first thing the Alter Rebbe's doing is he's making everything impossible. So what's, what's the ... isn't this a ... isn't this a safer that's supposed to make it ... No, because you need to know what's ... like, don't, uh, don't hack, don't hack yourself a ... that the, the ... is everything. This is ... right? Uh, uh-

21:23 Speaker 1 I know you said a huge statement, but-

21:25 Speaker 2 What?

21:25 Speaker 1 ... we might have to leave for later.

21:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

21:27 Speaker 1 That it seems like he's making impossible when the objective is actually

21:30 Speaker 2 But the, the

21:32 Speaker 1 ... like you said.

21:32 Speaker 2 But the, the

21:35 Speaker 1 Fine.

21:35 Speaker 2 The Tanya's saying he, the

21:39 Speaker 1 No.

21:39 Speaker 2 Right.

21:40 Speaker 1 But, but then you have chapter 14,

21:47 Speaker 2 Right

21:47 Speaker 1 ... you have to do stuff that it's-

21:51 Speaker 2 Yeah

21:51 Speaker 1 ... so there's that part also.

21:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, but I, I, I would say writer be- it's the same idea. You could... Because if you, if you, if you, if you shelve it entirely, then, then, then the, then everything else becomes ... It's a, it's a tough thing because you, you need to define what's what, and you d- and the impossible needs to be the impossible, but you can't say that because it's impossible, now I'm gonna forget about it. I'm just gonna focus on the possible because then the possible becomes very ... right? So you need to know, you need to know what's not

22:22 Speaker 1 Right

22:22 Speaker 2 ... and what you would, what your, like, kind of your, your dream, your dream list, so to speak. And then that, that, that p- that, that gives tension to, to what is possible. Anyway-

22:33 Speaker 1 You're touching on, you're touching on very deep, deep concepts 'cause really what it boils down to is

22:43 Speaker 2 Right.

22:43 Speaker 1 So there's that, like you said-

22:44 Speaker 2 It says, it says this in a

22:45 Speaker 1 It's-

22:45 Speaker 2 ... or this is a

22:47 Speaker 1 No, no. It's from

22:48 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

22:49 Speaker 1 And, and the word is this tension has to always exist between the aspiration-

22:54 Speaker 2 Right

22:55 Speaker 1 ... and the realistic we're gonna reach.

22:59 Speaker 2 Right.

23:00 Speaker 1 By the way, there's a, there's a

23:05 Speaker 2 Yeah

23:06 Speaker 1 ... I heard from, uh, Reb Meylech, one of my

23:08 Speaker 2 Oh, perfect. Feeds right in, yeah.

23:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he... It's a very ... it's a famous story. The, the... It's printed I think in I think. Anyways-

23:18 Speaker 2 You heard this from him, though?

23:19 Speaker 1 I heard this from him.

23:20 Speaker 2 All right.

23:21 Speaker 1 There was a Simchas Torah after, yeah, after the Maggid passed away, and for a certain time, the Mendel Hodoker was the Alter Rebbe's rebbe.

23:31 Speaker 2 Right.

23:32 Speaker 1 And it was Simchas Torah-

23:34 Speaker 2 But was it? I, I'd say ... of the f- the, the Alter considered him his rebbe, no?

23:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I'm saying, uh, and-

23:41 Speaker 2 'Cause that's how he writes about it-

23:42 Speaker 1 He might have for sure

23:43 Speaker 2 ... but he writes about it in ... that, that, like, when he passed away, that-

23:47 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's, he's definitely considered a rebbe of the Alter Rebbe.

23:52 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, yeah.

23:53 Speaker 1 But then there's a question, why isn't he counted in the Shoshan list?

23:56 Speaker 2 Right.

23:56 Speaker 1 Whatever. The Rebbe spoke about that a couple times. But this ... it's a Simchas Torah. The Alter Rebbe's there. The Mendel Hodoker's there.

24:03 Speaker 2 Right.

24:03 Speaker 1 And everyone's waiting for the Mendel Hodoker to come out for Hakafos.

24:08 Speaker 2 Right.

24:09 Speaker 1 And the Hasidim went and knocked on the door of the Mendal, and he said he can't come out yet. And the reason he can't come out yet is because he sees 100

24:17 Speaker 2 Right.

24:21 Speaker 1 He didn't reach it, so until he d- absorbs it, and, and, you know, he can't come out. So the Hasidim went to the, to the Alter Rebbe, and they said, "Listen, we're holding by Alter Rebbe. He doesn't wanna come out, and we're all waiting. You know, what's gonna happen over here?" So the Alter Rebbe said, "Tell the Mendal that he has to come out because the Hasidim, he's a rebbe and there's Hasidim that are waiting, and if he doesn't come out, he's gonna have to go to the Din Torah, and he's gonna be the rav." The, the Alter Rebbe who wrote the ... from the, from the See, he was known as the goen in, in, in Halakha. So, so he t- It's like he's told the, he told the Hasidim to tell his rebbe that he's gonna have to come to the Din Torah if he's not coming out-

25:03 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:03 Speaker 1 ... and that, and that the Alter Rebbe's gonna be the, the, the, the judge.

25:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

25:07 Speaker 1 So they told this to the Mendal, and he said, "Oh." I think he said, "If Zalmanke is the dayan," you know, the judge, "no worries. He's coming." So each one presented his case. The Chassidim said, "It's my fault that he's, you know, coming out." He said, "I saw a hundred Prushim on the , what should I do?" So the Alter Rebbe told them, "One answer is , and one answer is ." I don't know which one he said first. We'll say first the . That there was a couple, they lived on a mountain. Sorry, they lived under, under a mountain. So it's a mountain and there's a valley, and it would rain, and there was snow, and it would melt, and they were s- living on the, on the floor of the valley. And there was , and it was terrible, and they couldn't live there. So they decided they have to move up the mountain. So they, they... So in other words, to live not on the bottom mamash, but like a couple of feet on the mountain. Anyways, they're living like that, but then it, it snowed or rained or something, and there's still going through their shack or something. So the husband looks up at, at the top of the mountain, and he starts crying. He tells his wife, "There's no, there's no point of here. We're still getting . You know, we're still getting stuff, dirt in the, in the, in the thing, and we're never gonna reach the top." So

26:22 Speaker 1 the wife told him, "But from ." So in other words, "We're out of the bottom. We're all gathered."

26:29 Speaker 2 We're not sitting in it.

26:30 Speaker 1 We're not sitting in it.

26:31 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

26:31 Speaker 1 So therefore you have to be . And the Alter Rebbe said, from , we're past Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. We were dealing with and with the teshuvahs, and now we have to be . So even if you're not holding by the 100 levels, but . And the , he told them why we have to start now after this is because the sight. How do you say in English? The sight is always further than the reach.

27:00 Speaker 2 Right.

27:00 Speaker 1 So what's gonna happen after you get all the 100 Prushim? Then you can see another 100 Prushim, so it's never gonna end.

27:07 Speaker 2 Right.

27:07 Speaker 1 So therefore you have to come to our kafos. So Meilech said this .

27:11 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

27:12 Speaker 1 And because, you know, you did accomplish something with your life, you know. Baruch Hashem, everybody can look at themselves and say, "From , I..." The, the, the mountain, to the top of the mountain seems impossible. But from , and, and it's an aspiration. I don't know why I said this .

27:30 Speaker 2 No, you said it because we're talking about .

27:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, so-

27:33 Speaker 2 The is a mountaintop.

27:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. So in other words, there's always this, this idea of aspiration.

27:38 Speaker 2 Right.

27:39 Speaker 1 And we have to have that aspiration, and that always triggers us or inspires us to go higher and higher.

27:45 Speaker 2 Right.

27:45 Speaker 1 But, but on the one hand, we should be... You have to be happy that you accomplished something. We did get somewhere.

27:50 Speaker 2 So it's, it's, it's great that you brought up Reb Meilech. We wanted to speak about your mashpiyim growing up. Um, what... Before we speak about Reb Meilech specifically, and I'm sure you had other mashpiyim as well. What, what did a mashpia mean back in the day when you had the rebbe and fabregens and that whole, that, all, all of that going on? What, what, what exactly was a mashpia's role? Or what, what... Or how did you, how did you position them in the orbit and the, of Lubavitch?

28:25 Speaker 1 This is a very, I don't know what, a loaded question because there's so much here to talk about because we have to be here the whole night because we have to talk about today's bachur and what a bachur was 40 years ago, 45 years ago. So again, we're gonna have to start with a disclaimer. Like, first of all, today, and I'm not saying it as a good thing or a bad thing, I'm saying as a reality. You could have a bachur who's 18 years old, and he asks the mashpia, "Do you care about me?"

28:56 Speaker 2 Right.

28:57 Speaker 1 And you're looking at him, and you're saying, "Did I ever ask if Meilech cares about me or if Reb Elchonon cares about me?" It was like, "What are you..." It has nothing to do with it.

29:08 Speaker 2 Right.

29:09 Speaker 1 I'm a bachur, I'm here to learn, and he's a good teacher. Now, does he... And it goes without saying that I believe he does care about me, you understand? But some mashpiyim are warmer, some mashpiyim are a bit colder. But it was a question about you, not about the mashpia, if he cares about you or not.

29:24 Speaker 2 Right.

29:24 Speaker 1 Now, again, I'm going to . I'm, I'm gonna be really messed up. Today, I'm gonna... You must show that you care.

29:32 Speaker 2 Why is that?

29:32 Speaker 1 There's no question about it.

29:33 Speaker 2 Why is, why is that ?

29:35 Speaker 1 So because the real question, I, I'm gonna say a, a statement now.

29:39 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

29:40 Speaker 1 But we're gonna have to put it on hold 'cause you started asking about Meilech.

29:43 Speaker 2 All right.

29:44 Speaker 1 Today we have a problem in yeshivas. Are we here to learn? The Rebbe says in the that a yeshiva is yeshiva. The -

29:55 Speaker 2 Is a-

29:55 Speaker 1 ... job description of a yeshiva is .

30:01 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

30:02 Speaker 1 And in any institution of the world at that age of 18-year-olds, you know, "What are, what are you doing? You going to law school, medical school, accounting school? Okay, let's get on with it." So, so this, this, this... We're not learning Torah, and we're not learning Chassidis. And a mashpia today is, is, is, is a very difficult job.

30:21 Speaker 2 Right.

30:21 Speaker 1 Because you should give hasidut that are inspiring, that are deep, that are, that are, that are funny also in a way, 'cause . And you have to show that you care. Now, I wanna just make it clear, the job is . Today we have a line that everyone says, . So we're dealing with all sorts and many different levels, but that's why it's much, much harder because when I... You asked me a question. So now let's go 45 years ago. You're saying my mashpiyim. They, they went into teaching Chassidis. They went to teach Chassidis, and those bachur that were interested took from the mashpiyim. And those that were not interested- Didn't take so much from the mashpia. And that's the answer to your question.

31:07 Speaker 2 No, I was asking more, I was asking more klape, klape both the Rebbe, right? Like, like, you know, there's, there's the farbrengen, there's the, the life, the chassid of the Rebbe, and, and like, is the mashpia inside that or outside that or separate or not i- boring compared to that, and so on. And then also, like we've, we've been s- like we've been discussing earlier in this conversation, you have this whole idea of shluchas. And these mashpiyim, you know, they're not-- Let's say they're shluchim on some spiritual sense. They're not... You know, they're mashpiyim, they're not the, they're not the-- There are shluchim out there. There's... Like how did you, how did you see them? Were, were they big figures? Were they important figures? Were they... I don't know. Like-

31:50 Speaker 1 So I think it's very much dependent on the Mekabel.

31:53 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

31:55 Speaker 1 And I could tell you my shver, Rav Shalom Ezriel ben Nasan Gurary.

32:01 Speaker 2 Right.

32:02 Speaker 1 He told me once a line. He was a big maskil in Chassidus. He told me once a line-

32:06 Speaker 2 I mean, we had someone on the-- Mo- Moishe, your nephew from Detroit spoke about him.

32:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he told me once a line, "A mol v'khit rach tam kingeying glakh tzatosmus. De noch a kderher tam daform sey dish taushles." I used-

32:19 Speaker 2 He thought that?

32:20 Speaker 1 He s- he told me this once.

32:22 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

32:22 Speaker 1 "A mol v'khit rach tam kingeying glakh tzatosmus." He can go directly to atzmus. Then I realized we need a sey dish taushles.

32:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

32:29 Speaker 1 What he meant to say was, "You need a good teacher, you need a good mashpia that to show you the way." So the answer is it all, it, it, it's all one thing. In other words, it's-

32:37 Speaker 2 But how did you see it as a boy? I'm trying to understand what the s- what, what the s- what society was like back in the day in, in, in, in, in Lubavitch.

32:46 Speaker 1 So-

32:46 Speaker 2 Growing up-

32:46 Speaker 1 So-

32:46 Speaker 2 Growing up, the mashpiyim were, were big figures, they were important figures, or they, or did they just kind of melt into the, the surroundings or-

32:55 Speaker 1 They were much more important-

32:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

32:56 Speaker 1 ... than they are today.

32:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

32:59 Speaker 1 And, and, and the, a bachur-

33:01 Speaker 2 What was their role is my question. What was their-

33:03 Speaker 1 Their role is to teach Chassidus.

33:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

33:05 Speaker 1 I'll tell you a vort that I love very, very much. It's printed behind the book Samech Vov, and it says that when the Rebbe Rashab finished Samech Vov, he took out Benedictine-

33:18 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah

33:19 Speaker 1 ... and they had a l'chaim.

33:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

33:20 Speaker 1 Stam aggav, we say it was in Lovangati, weissen is gela, but Benedictine is gela. So on special occasions, we get drinking Benedictine.

33:29 Speaker 2 Benedictine is gross. I- the only time I had it was ta- when I finished Samech Vov or finished Samech Vov, and that was the only time, to my knowledge, that I passed out from a parshe that destroyed me.

33:42 Speaker 1 So they-

33:42 Speaker 2 And it's really not good.

33:44 Speaker 1 So when the Rebbe Rashab-- It's a matter of taste. Tam berekh-

33:47 Speaker 2 It's full, it's full of sugar. Sugar and alcohol is not a good idea for any... Okay, anyway.

33:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. So they took out Benedictine, the Rebbe Rashab with the Friediger Rebbe-

33:54 Speaker 2 We'll, we'll get this episode sponsored by Benedictine.

33:58 Speaker 1 The Rebbe Rashab, they took out Benedictine, they zok l'chaim. And then I think the Friediger Rebbe says a line over there, like, "Epis yesh leima uli." Maybe you could say, "Yesh me mashah hapora reitz ela more than the, the, the, the, more than the the young one wants to take from the dos, from the mother calf, the calf wants to give."

34:18 Speaker 2 Right.

34:18 Speaker 1 And then he says a line like this, and I think it's the Friediger Rebbe's vort. "A der tate khot genumen gibornikhasidim un gemakh fa emesikhasidim."

34:29 Speaker 2 Who, who said this? The Rebbe Rashab said this?

34:30 Speaker 1 No, the, the Friediger Rebbe said this-

34:32 Speaker 2 Oh, he was saying about the Rebbe Rashab

34:33 Speaker 1 ... about his father, the Rebbe Rashab.

34:35 Speaker 2 He took, he took-

34:36 Speaker 1 On this occasion, epis-

34:37 Speaker 2 Yeah. So he was saying-

34:38 Speaker 1 "A der tate khot genumen gibornikhasidim un gemakh fa emesikhasidim."

34:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

34:43 Speaker 1 "Un dikhasidim khum genumen papirnikhasidis un gemakh fa lebedikhasidis."

34:49 Speaker 2 Mm.

34:50 Speaker 1 So the fa-- My, my father, the Rebbe Rashab, took khasidim that were born khasidim, but he made them for true khasidim, not just the giborn khasidim.

34:57 Speaker 2 With Samech Vov.

34:59 Speaker 1 Y- yeah, I think so. Like through Aveidim, through Samech Vov. But, but, but the khasidim, what they gave to my father, so to speak, is they took paper khasidis, that means what's printed on a paper, and made it live, made it real.

35:13 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

35:13 Speaker 1 The menum, that's the lashon. Genumen papirnikhasidis un gemakh fa lebedikhasidis. So-

35:19 Speaker 2 Right

35:19 Speaker 1 ... why'd I say this for a minute?

35:21 Speaker 2 You're talking about the importance of a mashpia.

35:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. So that's the same thing. In other words, uh, you could learn, but when you hear it from a mashpia and a good teacher, you can't compare it.

35:34 Speaker 2 But was there space-

35:35 Speaker 1 But-

35:35 Speaker 2 Was there space back then for, for there to be this kind of memutza, like sp- in between, like, you know, hearing directly from the Rebbe a farbrengen? I'm sure some people thought they understood, some people thought they didn't, and some people may believe like they did. I don't know. I'm sure there's a mix. But you know, you're a serious bachur, you're hearing directly fro- you're hearing Mayim Rashay from the Rebbe. Then what's a mashpia's role, like to help you understand it? Like in a way, like is there, is there s- sometimes when you're in the s- uh, when you're so close to the sun, there's no room for anything else. That's my question.

36:09 Speaker 1 So I, I, I would say that, that, you know, the Rebbe told, uh, Baba Pliskin.

36:15 Speaker 2 Right.

36:16 Speaker 1 He asked the Rebbe about farbrengen.

36:18 Speaker 2 Right.

36:18 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe said, "You know, you have to say stories about khasidim."

36:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:21 Speaker 1 Not only Rebbe stories.

36:23 Speaker 2 Right.

36:23 Speaker 1 Because when you hear a story about a khasid, it's closer to the, you know, mortals.

36:27 Speaker 2 Did they listen to that, though? I-- It doesn't seem like that's what the culture was like back then, though. I know the story, but...

36:33 Speaker 1 Okay. So that, th- that's my answer. So when you s- when you see a person, like, uh, my, my first mashpia was like Rebbe Lipsker.

36:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

36:42 Speaker 1 A golden mashpia. We had him for two years in Ocean Parkway. And you see the melekh tzibur and you see the biyo kan, and they're living it. Genumen papirnikhasidis un gemakh fa lebedike. So it, it has a whole different impact.

36:57 Speaker 2 So you, so you s- you're saying once you encountered them, they, they meant, they meant something to you?

37:02 Speaker 1 A hundred percent. But, but first of-

37:04 Speaker 2 Was that the nor- was that the norm?

37:05 Speaker 1 First of-

37:05 Speaker 2 People took mashpium seriously back then?

37:08 Speaker 1 Maybe not enough. Maybe not enough

37:11 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying was there a thing, let's say, that you were going to a yeshiva to learn by a certain mashpia? Was that considered a thing?

37:19 Speaker 1 Yes.

37:20 Speaker 2 Okay.

37:21 Speaker 1 Yes. But, but I believe those that were Mekabelim listened

37:30 Speaker 2 Right

37:30 Speaker 1 ... and the farbrengen ishin.

37:32 Speaker 2 Right.

37:32 Speaker 1 And it was amazing.

37:34 Speaker 2 And what, what were they farbrengening about? Were they, were they farbrengening about what the Rebbe just said at the last farbrengen at, at the, the, with the latest mitzvah? Or were they still, or were they still talking about whatever they were living through? Was there, was there, was there... What were they just basically translating what the Rebbe was saying or was there a s- like their own identity or personality?

38:02 Speaker 1 You know, first of maybe a simple answer to your question in general is, let's say you have a father.

38:06 Speaker 2 Right.

38:07 Speaker 1 Let me give you an example. I, my, my father passed away when I was one years old, so, but I'm saying let's say a person has a father, and his father's a Hasid. So how would he answer the question: What role does your father play in, in, in, in Hasidischkeit?

38:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:22 Speaker 1 I think the answer would be huge because-

38:24 Speaker 2 Sure

38:24 Speaker 1 ... he represents the living, the whole, the whole, the whole ideology and the whole way of life.

38:31 Speaker 2 Sure.

38:31 Speaker 1 And, and the more he's a role model of all these values and principles and virtues, the more it, it, it, it makes an engraving impact on, on the child. So I would say the same thing with mashpia. So you asked about the farbrengens. So I'll just-

38:49 Speaker 2 No, but I, I understand what you're saying about a father, but a father in many ways, the, although I think in many ways that role was diminished, at least, uh, I think, I think it was, it was, it was not, um, it has not been celebrated as much as it should be. But a father, you grow up with him, you grow up in his house, so you see things that he's doing that are not the, you know, the, the, the, the flavor of the moment or mitzvah or whatever. At, at the time they were saying in Sikha there's a new campaign, there's a new theme, there's a new this. Your father, you're, you're watching your father get up in the morning and go daven in shul. You're, how, how he conducts himself as a, as a person, as a businessman, as a shliach, whatever it is. So you, you're, there is something very unique there. There's a... So that's what I'm asking about the mashpia. Was the mashpia somebody who just, you know, was a chozer of what the Rebbe was saying and teaching it up for you? Or was mashpia talking about things that you didn't hear by farbrengen? That's, uh, you know, that's the question I'm asking.

39:51 Speaker 1 Okay, so let me just talk from my own experiences. I say I have three mashpiyim. Rebbe Berl Lipsker,

41:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

41:19 Speaker 1 ...

41:19 Speaker 2 Right

41:19 Speaker 1 ... and he saw a Jew that lives like that, and, but it's always, everything's a big thing and et cetera. So that's Berl Lipsker. Meilech Tzvi I say

41:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

42:20 Speaker 1 ... you know,

43:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

43:11 Speaker 1 ... And he-- and by his farbrengens, that's why I want-- I'm gonna tell you what Rabbeim's style was. It was a different style than his style was. He'd say maisis. He'd talk for like 15 minutes, stories and pause and niggun. Stories. He had stories and stories of the, you know, Chassidim from Amol. He knew everything, and he knew of maisis, and he would say maisis and maisis and maisis. So his style of farbrengen was, you know... And he also would get excited. Like, he used to check the Likutey Sichos, so he was shy at the start of farbrengen. You know, likut. Like there's gonna be a likut that's gonna be

43:50 Speaker 2 'Cause, 'cause he was working on it.

43:51 Speaker 1 He was working on it, and he checked it out, and he was already getting excited about it. And then he'd farbrengen for a couple hours interspersed with all these stories about this new Gily that came out from the Rebbe. So he was always getting excited about the latest Gily. And by farbrengen also, he would speak about what the Rebbe said in the latest farbrengen. One time the Rebbe spoke, I think it was an farbrengen, and he said n- And the Rebbe spoke about instead of four cups of wine, it was four . So the next farbrengen, the Meilech farbrengen, he says, So that was the the next farbrengen. So the Rebbe said, You think we want ? The Rebbe says, "We want Mashiach now." And then Meilech says, I'm not even gonna answer you. You sleep like Chassidis. And then he says, How could you be sleeping? It's light outside. So that's what I mean. You have a Gil like that.

44:56 Speaker 2 You mean physically light.

44:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:58 Speaker 2 You're saying... N-n-not metaphorically light.

45:01 Speaker 1 No. So this is what-

45:02 Speaker 2 The sun has come up.

45:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. So you have such a person, he's the l-living example of somebody that doesn't waste a minute, a masmid-

45:10 Speaker 2 Right

45:10 Speaker 1 ... that knows everything, nigleich Chassidis. I believe he was the one of the greatest Talmidim Chacham that ever lived. I mean, in the last I don't know how many years because he was a book in everything.

45:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

45:21 Speaker 1 So just to give you an example, if you're sitting by farbrengen, he'll say, and he'll go through all the years. And you're sitting over there a-a-and this is what he's demanding. When are you gonna start learning? And if you ask him a question in Chassidis, what should you learn? Whatever. It's all good. Sounds good. That's what he would say. So now you ask me a question, what-- w-where does he fit in?

45:50 Speaker 2 Yeah.

45:50 Speaker 1 He fits in because he's Mister Chassidis. And when you see a Chassid that lives with Chassidis, and that's his whole life, and Torah is his whole life, so inspires you to be... You know, you, you wanna take something like from that person. What does it mean to be? He would say that if you knocked on the door of a Chassid, and the wife answered, then you'd say, He's, he's by the books. So it's like-

46:18 Speaker 2 Did you, did you see a stirer between Chassidis and Shlichus?

46:22 Speaker 1 One second. I w- I wanna talk about Rabbeim-

46:24 Speaker 2 Okay

46:24 Speaker 1 ... but what's your question right now?

46:26 Speaker 2 Did you see a stirer between Chassidis and Shlichus?

46:29 Speaker 1 No.

46:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:32 Speaker 1 Why should there be a stirer?

46:34 Speaker 2 Why? Because, because... Okay. Maybe the word's not stirer. A tension, which is a kind of stirer.

46:43 Speaker 1 I don't see a tension at all. I see, I see there's the, the ideology, this Torah Chassidis-

46:49 Speaker 2 Right

46:49 Speaker 1 ... and Torah Chassidis makes a person a better person.

46:53 Speaker 2 Right.

46:54 Speaker 1 And, and Shlichus is the ultimate. You know, the Rebbe wants to be a Chassid, Yiddush, Shma, and V'Ahaven from every single bocher. And Shlichus is the climax, the ultimate.

47:03 Speaker 2 So, so, so, so to-

47:04 Speaker 1 That you dedicate your life

47:05 Speaker 2 ... to show where there might be a, where there might be a, a, a tension, um, you know, you have a bocher who is very good at bifzoyim, let's say, you know, koch der bifzoyim, and he's good at it. Um, but it comes at the chashmin of, of learning another, learning another Maimon or, or, or learning a Hemshich.

47:25 Speaker 1 So-

47:25 Speaker 2 And you have a bocher who, who learns the Hemshich, and it comes at the chashmin of being involved in the latest bifzoyim. The-- I mean, at the end of the day, we're limited people, right? And these things, it's, i-it's not-- I don't think it's fair to say that it all goes in a straight line necessarily.

47:41 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe in a, in a sicha, I think it was the Yichidus. It's printed in Likutey Sichos, Chelek Yud Daled in the Isophes. And he says just like the Alter Rebbe excuse me for a second. The Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya that there's two types of neshamas: Mari Uvden Tavin-

48:03 Speaker 2 Right

48:04 Speaker 1 ... and Mari Torah.

48:05 Speaker 2 Right.

48:06 Speaker 1 The Rebbe in the Yichidus to Bochum, I think it was Yichidus. He says there's two types of bochum. There's the Mari Uvden Tavim bochum and the Mari Torah bochum. So some bochum are more wired for bifzoyim, Maisim Tavim, and some bochum are more wired for Torah. It's not a stirer. And the Rebbe says over there that that's chas v'shalom. So in other words, it's built into the system mechatchilah that outside of Seder, if one boch is more orientated towards Maisim Tavim, go for it.

48:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

48:36 Speaker 1 But during Seder, it's Limud Torah.

48:39 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, but I, I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to put myself in, in, in those times. You have Rebbe Meir who's sitting and learning and, and knows every Maimon by heart, and then you have Shluchim who are talking about Shlichus and, and being with Kar Avidin and, and, and, uh, and, uh, Badichabad, and they want bochurim to come help them with their polas. I mean, it's not-- I, I think it's fair to ask if there was a, a pull.

49:05 Speaker 1 So my, my answer is that, and I hope again, I don't wanna-- We're not judging anybody. I'm nothing. But I'm just making an observation to show, to answer your question.

49:16 Speaker 2 You're talking to Lubavitchers. They're maskim at that point.

49:18 Speaker 1 Yes. I wanna make an observation that if you look at the first crew, maybe the first crew, first, uh, shift, first-- I don't know what the word in English is. The first line of the Shluchim and the Yuds. Let's say Yud-Heh and Chaf and the Lamed. They're all Chassidishe Yidden-

49:39 Speaker 2 Right

49:39 Speaker 1 ... Bnei Torah. So if you wanna talk about names, look at the Reb Tzvi Yinbat or look at the Rebbe Reuven Oltein.

49:46 Speaker 2 Yeah.

49:46 Speaker 1 Or look at Reb Shapsi, um, Slaboditsky or Reb, Reb, um, Silberstein.

49:52 Speaker 2 Right.

49:52 Speaker 1 What's his-- I forgot his first name. In Ithaca.

49:55 Speaker 2 Right.

49:55 Speaker 1 So I'm saying these Shluchim are Bnei Torah.

49:58 Speaker 2 Right.

49:58 Speaker 1 They're, they're grace of Bnei Torah. And it's-- Uh, and, and when they were bochum, I'm sure they were maskilim and eivdim, whatever. There's a kind of Chassidis and a kind of nigleh, and they go- went on Shlichus. So it's not a problem at all. The Rebbe later on is this-- I think it's Mentez.

50:15 Speaker 2 So as a bachur, as a bachur, you didn't see Esther?

50:19 Speaker 1 Not at all.

50:19 Speaker 2 Yes.

50:19 Speaker 1 Not at all. But, but obviously there's some bachurim that are maybe not so much into learning, so for them of- obviously it was more natural.

50:27 Speaker 2 Right.

50:29 Speaker 1 Because in a way you could say, "What's a shliach?" Again, I don't wanna get into problems over here. In, in Torah terminology, shliach is an askan tzidburi, let's say.

50:39 Speaker 2 Right.

50:40 Speaker 1 He's not a rav necessarily. So you have some shluchim that are more askanim.

50:47 Speaker 2 Right.

50:47 Speaker 1 Shlichus al kimates, no problem. And you have some shluchim that are like, like, like for example, the shluchim that represent that is Israel. He said the first objective was that you should become Rabanim.

50:58 Speaker 2 Right.

50:59 Speaker 1 So there's different types of shluchim.

51:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

51:02 Speaker 1 Like the Morei Torah, Moreh Uvne Tavin.

51:04 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

51:04 Speaker 1 Like the Rebbe himself said.

51:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

51:08 Speaker 1 I want to just go back to the Rebbe for a second because, um, I say from the Rebbe, I got a geschmack in the Eichas from Chassidis. So the Rebbe, his farbrengen was different. There wasn't so much stories. It was a whole, it was, it was a whole long talk, you know. The, the Rebbe, you know, he'd start with the Rebbe, but, but really Alter Rebbe, Moshe Rabbeinu, and he'd go on for many hours, then he'd come to the Rebbe. And it, it would, it would have an unbelievable impact. His explaining what's Yudgaiski, what's Matan Torah, what's Torah, what's Chassidis, and then he'd get to the Rebbe, so that was like the climax. In my days, he, he wasn't so going Rebbe, Rebbe, you know, overtly. He wasn't-

51:53 Speaker 2 He wasn't? He wasn't?

51:54 Speaker 1 No, that came in like later.

51:57 Speaker 2 Why, what do you think, what do you think that was?

52:01 Speaker 1 Maybe 'cause things were more obvious. He didn't feel he had to push it. It was obvious that Rebbe wasn't gantz and bottle to the Rebbe. Bittle but tuchas. And, and, and then the climax, let's say for example, by a farbrengen, if it's, it's 2:00, 3:00 in the morning after he went about Moshe Rabbeinu and the Alter Rebbe and everything, then he'd, and he'd say the gantz zach, "Du hav ze chafregtan, vos far a chelek pol geich hoben in dem Rebbe's arbet." What, what kind of active role am I gonna have in the Rebbe's work? So that was the climax. So in other words, how do I define my life? You talk about shlichas, you have mashpia like the Rebbe he's sitting with a farbrengen for five hours at, at the whole tuchas for the whole farbrengen is, am I gonna be part of the Rebbe? What, what active role am I gonna have in the Rebbe's work? That's what, what life's all about.

52:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

52:51 Speaker 1 So it, it, it, it reinforces whatever you're learning in Chassidis or whatever the Rebbe's talking about.

52:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So it sounds like that in those days things were coming together very nicely. The, the mash- the mashpiyim, the yeshivas were, the sh- the yeshivas, the yeshivas were feeding into, into shlichas, but not at the cost of the yeshivas. The, the, not at the cost of learning. And, um and shlichas, shlichas, shlichas wasn't at the cost of learning, learning wasn't at the cost of shlichas. Shlichas was, like you were saying earlier, exploding 'cause Rebbe was talking about it, putting a lot of gasoline on the fire. And so learning wasn't, it, learning wasn't coming at the cost of shlichas, but shlichas wasn't coming at the cost of learning. Seems like a very... And then the shpitz came. The shpitz Chabad came. It seems like this, like this was before, before that kufah.

53:54 Speaker 1 I don't know what you mean exactly.

53:56 Speaker 2 It, it seems, it s- It almost seems like a, like a, like a, like a time where, where things, things were harmonious.

54:08 Speaker 1 That's what I believe, my son, my friend. In other words-

54:12 Speaker 2 No, but, but it doesn't feel like it was harmonious after that.

54:15 Speaker 1 Let, let me, let me, let me... This, I'm telling the way I, the way I understand it.

54:18 Speaker 2 Your, your experience, uh, but, but, but would it be fair to say that, that, that kufah didn't last all the way through the late mems is my question?

54:29 Speaker 1 I can't really talk about after Yom Tov was because I wasn't-

54:31 Speaker 2 I'm talking about late mems. I'm talking about late mems

54:31 Speaker 1 ... So, so, so let, so let me say something which, which and this is really for farbrengen for a couple of months.

54:37 Speaker 2 No, because, because what, what I mean by shpitz, so not just to make fun, but, but shpitz Chabad, the, the adamant almost militant, um, push of, of his gash's, you know, uber alles and, and, and shlichas uber alles. Like, like it becomes the, the it, it almost like shlichas takes over everything. And ideas of like Chassidis being like, you know, you know, vavas lanos hasam achvav, you know, i- you know what I'm talking about.

55:13 Speaker 1 I, I think no, no, no.

55:15 Speaker 2 You know what I'm not trying to get you in trouble.

55:17 Speaker 1 No, no, no.

55:17 Speaker 2 You know that.

55:18 Speaker 1 I think we have to start with certain yeshivas. I believe that the real push for shlichas starts with the Rebbe Rashab.

55:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

55:28 Speaker 1 'Cause he said, "Kol ha'yetzel m'chames beis Dovid, kasev get keses lehishte." That whole thing, that's Temimideam. And the famous sicha of Kol ha'yetzel m'chames beis Dovid. Now, what he said in that sicha, which the Rebbe said we should all learn in, in tes gefel tov shin mem tes, was the Yarah, that you should learn this sicha of Kol ha'yetzel m'chames beis Dovid. In that sicha, the Rebbe Rashab said something which the Rebbe speaks about that sicha and says there was a nevuah. Usually when the Rebbe speaks about that sicha and he says a nevuah, he says what the Rebbe Rashab said, that is, "Cheifu ichim meshuchecha, uchefu ivech Hashem." So, and the Rebbe Rashab said there'll be those that are frum, but they're against Moshiach, and there are those that are not frum, yeah? And the Rebbe said, you see the Nevuah that in today, whenever the Rebbe was talking, that people that are "" against Moshiach. But there was another thing over there, and I don't remember clearly if the Rebbe said that that's part of Nevuah, but to me, I think it's obvious. He said that he said a line in that farbrengen, the Rebbe Rashab, as the Tamimim, where they will be, and they will be in the four corners of the world, but they are doing the kavon al yeneh from last week's Baruch Dir mit Chadeinim. So sit down for a second and think. This is before World War II, before Hitler, Yimach Shemei, before Stalin, Yimach Shemei, before World

56:52 Speaker 1 War I.

56:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, before World War I.

56:54 Speaker 1 Before World War I, Samach Alef, I think. And he's saying, and he said, "Ich bin aber..." He says, "Ich bin..." He said, "Taki, ich bin a muftach." Oh, in the Sikhi he says, "Ich bin a muftach." When Yiddin in Farshate in Afken Mitzvah is not batuch, and a muftach, he's guaranteed. So he's talking in the land of chickens and goats, Lubavitch.

57:15 Speaker 2 Right.

57:16 Speaker 1 And he's saying, you know, how many Tamim were there? Third year, 10 Chitzmim.

57:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

57:21 Speaker 1 That you people are going to be in the four corners of the world-

57:26 Speaker 2 Right

57:26 Speaker 1 ... and gonna fulfill the kavon of last week's Baruch Dir mit Chadeinim. So it's definitely the Rebbe made the reality of that, that the Tamimim are all over the world on shlichas, and, and the Rebbe lifted up the whole world for the Aibisht. Now, you have to look at it like, in other words, let's talk in a secular. You have a graduate of West Point, so military academy. Kol yesh om chemed beis Dovid. So in other words, we're going back now to the original. I think that where, where it really starts from, 'cause, uh, is you have an individual, he's in the yeshiva, and he's brought up with the whole vort, you're a tamim, you're a tamim from 10 Chitzmimim. And what was it all about? What's the whole purpose? And the end of it is all to take a-- go on shlichas. That's what the free to get up. That's what the Rebbe Rashab meant when he said, "Kol yesh om chemed beis Dovid," which means we're bringing Moshiach, we're, we're, we're uplifting the world. Doing the kavon al yeneh from last week's Baruch Dir mit Chadeinim. So your question your question was, when did it change? So my answer, uh, my only answer to you is once you start deviating from lashon haRav, that's where you get all the problems. That's all I can say. But if you, if you stick to lashon haRav, then it'll save you a lot of problems. Stick to lashon haRav. What should I tell you? And, and,

58:44 Speaker 1 and have the right mashpiyim and the right teachers. The Rebbe pushed Hasel HaRav. Let's l- you know.

58:51 Speaker 2 Okay. All right. Okay. I'm, I'm not, I'm not trying to accuse anybody, shalitza befon of, uh, and I don't even have enough information to know who to accuse, and I don't even know that I'm right in the accusation. But my, my, my understanding is, or what I gather, is that what you're describing up to this point is a world that seems marvel- marvelously, um, for lack of a better word, sane. Like, it makes sense. A- and it seems very harmonious, where, where the yeshiva is doing its job, or it has its role. Shlichas has its role. They're both growing and, and, and, and everything's on the up and up, right? That, that, that, that's-- And I'm not disputing that. That's your account of it. But then I hear and I, and I gather, um, and I, you know, I, I feel from, from, from things that I was taught also, there, there came a time where somehow all of that be- came under, under pressure or just needed to be included in s- in something called hiskashrus. So maybe, maybe a healthier way of, of, of, of going about this without just, you know, hurling cheap shots at, at, at unnamed people, and I, and I, I take blame for, for that earlier. Um, I take responsibility for it. What did hiskashrus mean back in your day? And I, let me, let me, let me add a little bit of me to that question. You know, a few months ago, I was involved in a

1:00:30 Speaker 2 project where the idea of the project was to tell the story or, or no, to talk about hiskashrus. What was interesting was when the question then became, okay, what's meant hiskashrus? And it very quickly-- I'm not even here g- I'm not even going to, to be chaker the different opinions. What was interesting was, is how different the opinions were 'cause it's such a, it's such a, like, ambiguous word or subjective word that people can take it in all different directions, right? And, and, and which, which makes it a pro-- not a problem. It makes it very challenging when that becomes the defining idea because what, what did it mean in your... You see what I'm asking? What did, what did it mean in your day? What, what, what role, what, like, what, what we s- did-- Was it something everyone spoke about the whole time? Was it, was it the... I'll, I'll give you another example. Today, a lot of people will say you go on shlichas to be a makosher. When the whole other reason you're going shlichas to, is to be a, a malei the shlichas. That's what a shliach does. A shliach goes to be, right? To, to, to accomplish the shl- That a shliach is there for the shlichas. It's-- But today, a lot of people say the shlichas is there for the shliach. You see what I'm saying? So what was it like when you were a bocher?

1:01:57 Speaker 1 No, no, 'cause I-

1:01:58 Speaker 2 I didn't plan this, but it's, it's an important question.

1:02:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I think we're gonna be here till, till Yom HaKippurim. So-

1:02:04 Speaker 2 So you might be, huh?

1:02:06 Speaker 1 So let, let me, let me, let me tell you something. The Rebbe definitely made hiskashrus more prominent, more the icher And I'm gonna say a statement about the Rebbe for a second, if I may, and then we'll start at the beginning. The Rebbe was a radical Mekubal-

1:02:26 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:02:27 Speaker 1 ... to the Friediker Rebbe. By the way, the Be'al was a radical Mekubal. I don't wanna get into all the stories, whatever.

1:02:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:02:36 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was the greatest Hasid and the greatest Rebbe, and this is something which I don't think today's Hasidim chapov. It's like, it's like there's an inferiority complex that you have to always say greater, better, and, and like, without being greatest what came before. And you don't realize how the Rebbe has a Bittul to the Friediker Rebbe, and he's running to the Ohel. What's he doing at the Ohel he can't accomplish in his office? He can do the same exact thing. He has no Agbolos. But, but the Rebbe's walking into the davening with, with the Siddur of, of the Rebbe de Shvek. He needs it?

1:03:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:16 Speaker 1 Like, so he's a Hasid Shee'en Komo VeDeGemoso. BeTachlis Habittel and, and Kabbalah Ohel to the Friediker Rebbe. At the same time, he's the next level. But... And that's, that's the un-unbelievable thing about the Rebbe, that he Koch zich on all the Rebbeim more than any other Rebbe.

1:03:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:36 Speaker 1 With all the Friediker Rebbe's, uh, history, which we're not gonna take away. Without the Friediker Rebbe, we know nothing. But who's the one who made-- took, took a vort of the, of the Friediker Rebbe Hasidus Shishpiessin? Now every lad is talking about Hasidus Shishpiessin, like, like, like Challah made in Sukkos.

1:03:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:51 Speaker 1 And who's the one who made a Farbrengen by every single yom in the program of the Rebbeim?

1:03:55 Speaker 2 Who?

1:03:55 Speaker 1 Who's the one who comes in with a Sefer of the Tzemach Tzedek, say, "Our new Sefer was printed"? Now that itself is a course Farbrengen. So I'm saying, you know, people forget that point, and they think, "Yeah, we're gonna talk about the Rebbe."

1:04:05 Speaker 2 The Rebbe, yeah.

1:04:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. So this is where the mistake is. It, it's not a Stira.

1:04:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:11 Speaker 1 It has to go together. Now, we're rewinding a bit, yeah?

1:04:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:04:16 Speaker 1 Nothing more has to be added to chapter two of the Tanya, Pelek Beis.

1:04:21 Speaker 2 You're pushing the Tanya over here.

1:04:23 Speaker 1 Yes. Nothing more has to be added in a way.

1:04:26 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:04:26 Speaker 1 If you learn Pelek Beis of Likutey Amarim Tanya, Pelek Beis-

1:04:31 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:31 Speaker 1 ... where in the same Pelek where he talks about Nefesh Elokis is a Chelek Eloka Mima Mamash. He makes it clear, Kol HaDavar B'Talmid Chacham, K'ilo Nidba B'Shechina, Mamash.

1:04:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:44 Speaker 1 So, so that, that's the most radical thing you could ever imagine. Why are we, why are we saying... He adds twice Mamash in that Pelek. Chelek Eloka Mima Mamash, and over here, Kol HaDavar B'Talmid Chacham, K'ilo Nidba B'Shechina, Mamash, and he explains it. So now take a Hasid who learns Tanya Pelek Beis, and you don't need more than Pelek Beis.

1:05:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:04 Speaker 1 And you live with that what the Alter Rebbe says over there, and he says, "Even Poshim Um'odim are getting their Chayis from the Tzadik." So case closed. Final word. You don't need anything more than that, which means your brain, Moich Haben, is the Rebbe. You're the tzar, tzorech raglav. You're the nails. So now, once a person has that, in other words, that's why I'm very much into that ideology. Once you learn Chassidus Chabad, and you get to the... There's nobody like the Alter Rebbe making a Kol Koreh. You know, L'shem Hazof Anad Mazalkan. You learn Pelek Beis from Tanya. You believe it. Once you believe it, there's nothing more that has to be said. The Rebbe is your connection to the Aibishter, as he explains in Pelek Beis. Okay. Now, you're asking about Hashkafa. So it starts with Pelek Beis in Tanya. The only difference is that the Rebbe spoke about it, let's say, in Taf Shin Yud and Yud Aleph, like unbelievable. Everything's connected to Hashkafa. Every mitzvah is connected to Hashkafa. Every Parsha is connected to Hashkafa. So he brought it out more bogoli, okay? But it's not a new principle. You get what I'm saying?

1:06:10 Speaker 2 Of course. Uh, so, uh, uh, let, let me just, let me just, let me just-

1:06:14 Speaker 1 What I'm saying is it starts-

1:06:15 Speaker 2 Let me just recap on... Yeah

1:06:16 Speaker 1 ... it starts from Pelek Beis Tanya. Did you get that? Get it. And from there, the rest is Idich Pirusho. And the Rebbe spoke about it more. But I wanna say one thing before you say something else, which is very important-

1:06:27 Speaker 2 No, no, I'm just trying to recap what you said, but go ahead.

1:06:29 Speaker 1 Okay. No, you could... Whatever you want.

1:06:31 Speaker 2 I, I feel like, I, I feel like the point that you're pushing here, not pushing, the point that you're making here a few times already is that a lot of these ideas have deep roots, and, uh, where, where people get lost is when they try to see it as a novelty or as a new thing. And because they ta-- it's almost like you're pulling your, your, it, your, your, your, your, your, you're pulling at a tree that has no roots, so that's obviously gonna fall, fall with the wind. Yes?

1:07:00 Speaker 1 Uh, maybe. I mean, I, I'm trying to explain to you, let's start with, let's get back to where it starts.

1:07:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:07 Speaker 1 And then you don't usually have any problems. It's when you start adding where you get the problems. I wanna say one thing-

1:07:15 Speaker 2 Sure, sure

1:07:15 Speaker 1 ... and we'll connect it. I believe, again, the Rebbe, starting from the Alter Rebbe when he said, "What's Chabad Hasidus? Avoda Bekirei Atzmi." The whole vort of what is the, what is the, what is the, the distinguishing aspect of Chabad Hasidus and the contrast between Hagahs. So the Alter Rebbe said it, that he wants Avoda Bekirei Atzmi, not Tzadik Bemanosoi, um, Yicheal Tekia Yicheal Lechai like everyone else. It's about the Tzadik having Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem, and Yodea Sel HaKose, and the Hasidim just, uh, hang on to his coattails, whatever you call it. But Chabad, the vort is that you have to have Avoda Bekirei Atzmi, V'Yodai Tayim, Da Asel Hakavdicha, Ahavas... Yeah. Now, there is something that the Rebbe said, and, and that maybe, I think this is a very important point which is not discussed, and I think it's something that goes, runs through every one of us, me, you, and every Hasid, is the Rebbe started in the beginning, he said, "Midarv Alei'em Haper Zein DeEgina Nefsh Bahamis." From day one when he's nitchvat- You gotta transform in Efshabamus. Not if you have a good father, not if you have a good mother, not if you have a good teacher. You gotta do it. You understand? In the end, Chinuch means responsibility. So the whole idea of everything is that you gotta do it. You gotta take responsibility. So that has to be the language, and that's the story with the Rebbe with Weinreb. You know, there's a guy in your

1:08:46 Speaker 1 s-- you know, talk to him. You know what I'm talking about. And the same thing happened with Moshe de Meshe Itch Fecht. You know, you know, I, th- I, I, I already sent somebody to your town. His name is Moshe Itch Fecht. Talk to him. And then if you go through the years, it's always the same verse. ""And then there's Purim Mem Zayin, where the Rebbe said, "How come we're still in Galus?" And the Rebbe tried this way and that way, and the only beer that I found was that he, he ..." That he gave it over to the holder. We gotta do it. And then comes Chof Ches Nissan. And, you know, Ich Shingen, Tan Alt azicht af Tan, and now you do it. So, and then there was the lady that came to the Rebbe by dollars after Chof Ches Nissan and said, "Rebbe, but we need you." And then the Rebbe says, "But if I'm the Rebbe, then you have to listen to what I'm saying." And she says, "I want my son back." She starts crying. And the Rebbe just says, "You know, if I'm the Rebbe, then you have to know that it's gonna be through you and through you and through you." And that's what he does by the dollars. So I, if I may say so, I think we're not... We're still not listening. You understand what I'm saying? I'm talking to myself. Every person, this is the whole idea of Chinuch. The whole point of Chinuch Chassidus

1:10:00 Speaker 1 Chabad is ""That we're not, like you said in the beginning, diluting it and dumbing down-

1:10:10 Speaker 2 Right

1:10:10 Speaker 1 ... but that the person has to take responsibility, and that's what we have to ask ourselves.

1:10:15 Speaker 2 But-

1:10:15 Speaker 1 In, in, in, in every single conversation, and we're talking about Chinuch. Okay? So I'm Rashbia. What's my job? My job is to make it ""He's gotta take responsibility," and that's the question. How do we accomplish that? He's-

1:10:30 Speaker 2 Take responsibility for what?

1:10:33 Speaker 1 Whatever it is. You, you're a Yid.

1:10:35 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying it's a good-- It's a, it's an interesting question. What, what, what, what, what do you see as a success in Rashbia?

1:10:40 Speaker 1 Another one, one second. So I'm, I'm connecting this to this whole point-

1:10:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:10:44 Speaker 1 ... with his Kashrus and Rebbe. But the, the whole thing what the Rebbe wants at the end of the day is like, like, and he always spoke about the fourth paragraph of Schlichas, that you're allerlei with your personality, with your individuality, and you make the right decisions without me standing over you and watching you.

1:10:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:11:00 Speaker 1 So you're a Mekushe, but the Rebbe wants that your hiskashrus should be in such a way that you work on yourself, you're developing yourself. There's a Vayda.

1:11:08 Speaker 2 Right. But what did hiskashrus mean when... What, what role did it play when you were a Bochur? Was it, was it like something that was spoken about all the time like it is today?

1:11:20 Speaker 1 I don't think it's Mesich Nikamos. It was about the relationship. A Bochur wants to feel close to the Rebbe. A Bochur wants to feel the Rebbe is everything to him, mother, father, et cetera. Then-

1:11:34 Speaker 2 And pe- people spoke that, that, that, that far back then also?

1:11:37 Speaker 1 Yeah. "" The Rebbe loves you more than your father, loves you more than your mother, 'cause ain't soft, they're likkus, whatever. I'm just saying. And again, if you really-

1:11:46 Speaker 2 Well, why is that Negiah? Okay, well, why, why is it Negiah to push-

1:11:51 Speaker 1 It's Negiah because, because y- the most Tsadikim means you have to look at the Rebbe as his Bligvul. The Rebbe says in the Sicha Chof Ov, Tov Shin Yud Ov or something, that even someone who has a Safek to the Rebbe Ve'eitz als, Rebbe Eli's Techazat is that the Rebbe said, """ Still you should learn the Rebbe's Chassidus. In other words-- So you have to know when you're dealing with a Tzadik, you know, the Rebbe has no Aybolus.

1:12:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's important.

1:12:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:12:27 Speaker 1 It's important.

1:12:28 Speaker 2 But the question is, the question is, though, what-

1:12:31 Speaker 1 We're saying go back to the Tanya.

1:12:33 Speaker 2 What-

1:12:34 Speaker 1 ""

1:12:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:12:35 Speaker 1 Why do we have to know that?

1:12:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:36 Speaker 1 'Cause a Tzadik, the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya, """ That the Ibrishtukra created the world, "" And the Alter Rebbe writes, "" Something like that. I forgot the Lashon. But Bekitze, so the Alter Rebbe's telling you, what is a Tzadik? A Tzadik is a Gilyala Kus, and that's the point of Peiri Beis. A Tzadik is a Gilyala Kus.

1:13:07 Speaker 2 Right, exactly. Peiri Beis to me is a, is a very objective, almost scientific description of, of, of what a-- of where the Rebbe fits in or where the Noszi Yisroel fits in, right? Or for, what, what Lashon does he use? Doesn't use, does he, he doesn't use the Lashon of an Admiral. Uh, what's the, what's the Lashon that he uses?

1:13:24 Speaker 1 Tsadikim.

1:13:25 Speaker 2 Tsadikim.

1:13:25 Speaker 1 "

1:13:26 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So it's, it's, it's more a scient-- It's almost like a scientific description of, of, a obj- objective description of here, here, here's a Tzadik, here's the, the Klal Yisroel and the Yid, the Yid HaNeshamah and how, like, it's a Guf Shalom. In many ways, the more-- the language that feels more, uh, hiskashrus-tic is, is, is in that Ketamah of, uh, you know, Achviei deMakiri HaKomina and then the whole talk about Yechidas. And in many ways, I, I don't bring that up just to, to push back at your point. I, I think it's more that, like, there, there's hiskashrus as a idea, and then there's hiskashrus as it's a lived experience, right? And, you know, it seems to me that at some point, hiskashrus as a lived experience became this dominant theme.

1:14:22 Speaker 1 So now you're go- I think you're getting to another point now, which we didn't bring out till now. Before Gimmel Tammuz, there was definitely a personal relationship. So in other words, you felt the Rebbe knows you.

1:14:34 Speaker 2 Really?

1:14:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:14:34 Speaker 2 In, in the late Mem's also?

1:14:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:14:36 Speaker 2 A Bochur coming up in the late Mem's felt that, that the Rebbe know him?

1:14:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. Because a, a regular Bochur, his mother would have a letter from the Rebbe when she notified the Rebbe that she was pregnant with, with this boy.

1:14:49 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you... But that's different than going to Yechidas, and the Rebbe talking to you about, about, about your, uh, Cheis, about your Shutufim or, or your friends or what... Like, uh, like the... It's not the same.

1:15:01 Speaker 1 So I, I got engaged in Tov Shin Mem, Mem Zayin, and I got answers from the Rebbe.

1:15:08 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:08 Speaker 1 So you writing to the Rebbe whether to go out, whether or not to go out.

1:15:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:12 Speaker 1 Whether the Shidduch is a good Shidduch. And even in the middle when you're going and you're dating and you have a question, you write to the Rebbe, the Rebbe answered. So a bachur felt a personal relationship with the Rebbe, that the Rebbe knows me.

1:15:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:15:25 Speaker 1 And don't forget-

1:15:26 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:26 Speaker 1 ... so people who went to dollars.

1:15:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:28 Speaker 1 Bachurim.

1:15:29 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:15:31 Speaker 1 I mean, if, I'm saying you don't have to come on to, to, to, to Emunah.

1:15:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:36 Speaker 1 It was like in Das Tachen, especially somebody whose father was Lubavitcher or mother's Lubavitcher, the, the years and years of experience of, of Yichius that they had, you know. Your, your grandfather is a Reb Moshe Temtev, Reb, Reb Moshe Temtev, so of course you felt, ah, I'm saying there's a connection.

1:15:52 Speaker 2 I felt there's a connection through him, or he felt that there's a connection.

1:15:56 Speaker 1 No, I'm talking about, I'm saying you by, by being a grandson of Reb Moshe Temtev-

1:16:01 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:16:01 Speaker 1 ... I don't exactly know. I'm losing my... What year were you born?

1:16:05 Speaker 2 Oh, I, I didn't... I, I was a young boy by Gimmel Tammuz. But, um, um, I mean, I don't know. You'd have to ask my uncles what they felt.

1:16:14 Speaker 1 Y- your mother might have... Were you, were you... How old were you by Gimmel Tammuz?

1:16:18 Speaker 2 How old am I? Okay. I, I... No, I was, I was a boy. I was a boy. I was-

1:16:22 Speaker 1 So my friend, your mother might have a letter-

1:16:26 Speaker 2 Yeah, but see there, it ... Okay, there's two things. Does the Rebbe know who I am? And then there's two questions: Do I have evidence for it? And then in general, are, are we, are... Do you see the Rebbe as, as a regular person or as a extraordinary person who knows things in ways that you don't know? So that's one sh- that's ... But there's a second tad here which is what do you, like, what do you know that the Rebbe knows, right? Not on Emunah, not-

1:16:52 Speaker 1 So, so-

1:16:52 Speaker 2 So once upon a time, right, the, the bachur went in, and he has this, you know, and he, the Rebbe asked, the Rebbe says, "Oh, I, I know this about you and that about you, and I heard this about you, and I think..." You know, there are stories like that, and people enjoy those stories for a reason. I'm, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to complain about, about the passage of time or what has changed.

1:17:11 Speaker 1 No, 'cause he asked about a skashrus.

1:17:13 Speaker 2 I'm trying to understand 'cause it sounds to me almost like the, like the times you grew up in, and, and you've also reinforced the point a few times, this whole emphasis on Derashv and, and this kind of turn, like, not away, but like, like going on its own path, doesn't sound like, like, like your experience as a bachur. But then that did become the, the kind of language, especially in the late, in the late mems and, and then the nuns and so on. Or, or you don't, or you don't see that? I'm not, uh-

1:17:45 Speaker 1 No, I, I, I, I I can only talk about my own experiences.

1:17:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:50 Speaker 1 And I, I wanna bring out that when we were... Before Gimmel Tammuz, Mr. Average Bachur felt a personal connection-

1:18:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:18:01 Speaker 1 ... in Das Taichin.

1:18:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:18:03 Speaker 1 So like, look at, look at, take a Kesher Bracha. I'm saying I wasn't so much into it like other bachurim. They're much more. Or take bachurim-

1:18:10 Speaker 2 Why not? Why not?

1:18:11 Speaker 1 Because Rachmana Litzlan, Rachmana Litzlan.

1:18:13 Speaker 2 Oh, come on.

1:18:14 Speaker 1 No, the, the, 'cause there were always different types. There's different Chassidim. So the, so the Nevelers, the Kamenchuker, so the, so the, you know, Nikolaever. There's different-

1:18:23 Speaker 2 What were you doing there cur- during Kesher Bracha that you weren't into it? What does that mean?

1:18:26 Speaker 1 I would be there for... Let's say I wouldn't stand, stay there every single minute. Rachmana Litzlan, maybe I was tired. I went upstairs. I wouldn't leave Seven Seven to come up home, but I'm just saying an example.

1:18:35 Speaker 2 So not all the bachurim stayed the whole time?

1:18:37 Speaker 1 They would stay the whole time, but left after they were in the, in the mamash, in the heat of it. Like, like-

1:18:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:18:43 Speaker 1 ... you know, whatever. You know? Not every bachur never missed a Mincha. You know, you went to a dentist or something-

1:18:50 Speaker 2 Were, were-

1:18:50 Speaker 1 But there'll be somebody else who would never miss a Mincha.

1:18:52 Speaker 2 Were the bachurim during Kesher Bracha were upstairs learning?

1:18:59 Speaker 1 If you were upstairs, it was a chukah, don't get me wrong. So you heard the whole thing. You know what I'm saying?

1:19:05 Speaker 2 But I'm saying what was going on upstairs that you would go upstairs for it? The people were learning?

1:19:09 Speaker 1 Nothing. The microphone was on.

1:19:11 Speaker 2 No, but you went upstairs. What were you doing there?

1:19:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe if it was Simchas Torah, Kesher Bracha, you had a lot to catch up. Ma'ariv and the Sedrer and stuff like that-

1:19:18 Speaker 2 So the bachur-

1:19:19 Speaker 1 But every-

1:19:19 Speaker 2 So the bachur upstairs doing Ma'ariv Sedrer during Kesher Bracha.

1:19:22 Speaker 1 If Kesher Bracha was for three hours, let's say he was there for an hour. Rachmana Litzlan, he wasn't such a Chassid, and he went upstairs to sit down.

1:19:29 Speaker 2 Why, why do we feel a need to say Rachmana Litzlan?

1:19:31 Speaker 1 I'm saying that. What do you care?

1:19:32 Speaker 2 Did, did you feel that way then?

1:19:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. I have to, I... You know, like I make a j- I make a joke, but it's not really a joke.

1:19:39 Speaker 2 No, 'cause I, I'm trying to-

1:19:40 Speaker 1 Rachmana Litzlan never opened up the door for the Rebbe. When it came to the Seven Seven, I wish I would have had that zchus. I d-

1:19:46 Speaker 2 Why say, why say Rachmana Litzlan?

1:19:48 Speaker 1 Because I could tell you a story that Rebbe said that had a tremendous impact on my life.

1:19:53 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:19:53 Speaker 1 Should I tell you the story?

1:19:54 Speaker 2 I care, yeah.

1:19:56 Speaker 1 This is a story the Rebbe said, giving an example about a Yechiel and that it's printed, this story is printed in L'Shem Ha'ezen. There's two stories, but I'll just say one story, but this one I heard from Rebbe Yechiel. Reb, Reb Itche Krameler, who is an amazing, amazing Chabad Rebbe, even though we say it about Reb Yechiel-

1:20:17 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:20:17 Speaker 1 ... but Reb Itche Krameler, we have chasidis from him.

1:20:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:19 Speaker 1 Reb Itche Krameler was, was, uh, before he passed away. He's laying in bed, and he was not so happy. Jovial, is that a word in English? He wasn't so happy, but then-

1:20:33 Speaker 2 Only, only in the Southern Hemisphere.

1:20:35 Speaker 1 Okay. So then he was happy. And his talmidim saw that he was getting like he was... Before that he was like depressed, and then he was smiling and was happy. So then they asked him, like, "What, what happened? What's going on?" And he said, you know, he thought to himself, "Mit vos geich lamaila." He was b- like passing away. "Mit vos geich lamaila. My tefilin, mitzvos, um chatos, um atfal bevira, bisham adas le-"

1:20:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:57 Speaker 1 "What's it worth? It's gone to shtadt."

1:20:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:59 Speaker 1 "But then I remembered one time I was walking along," and- The Alter Rebbe was sitting and learning, and the wind came and blew away a of the Alter Rebbe Sefer. And I got that and I brought back to the Alter Rebbe.

1:21:16 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:21:17 Speaker 1 And he said, "." And the Talmidim were like, "Wow." Like they, they laughed. And then I think that, that Reb Itzık said, like, "What's-- what are you laughing about?" This Emes-- I think he said this Emes HaShimos or, or Emes HaTalmid HaChacham. I forgot exactly.

1:21:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:37 Speaker 1 But the point is, here's a-- So Reb Yael's bringing up the point that Reb Itzık Kameler-

1:21:42 Speaker 2 Right

1:21:42 Speaker 1 ... with was at Mishamas giving the Alter Rebbe one time. Thus, so can you imagine? You're a Hasid, you listen to the Reb Yael, he's farbrengen, and he's saying such a story changes your life. That means the most-

1:21:58 Speaker 2 You went on shlichas.

1:21:59 Speaker 1 Who?

1:22:00 Speaker 2 You did.

1:22:00 Speaker 1 But I hear this when I was a bachur.

1:22:02 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying you went on shlichas. Why is that not shimus?

1:22:04 Speaker 1 It is shimus, but you know what?

1:22:06 Speaker 2 I, I'm not, I'm not asking you to be a smart aleck.

1:22:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:22:08 Speaker 2 And, and I'm not-- I wasn't asking-

1:22:09 Speaker 1 Uh-

1:22:09 Speaker 2 I wasn't asking earlier about the Rachmanus Lan about, about, about Kirsh Arbach to be a smart aleck either. Um-

1:22:15 Speaker 1 No, so I'm saying-

1:22:16 Speaker 2 I, I, I'm asking it because it, it almost, it, it, it, uh, it, it, it, it, it's in fact the question that I'm asking.

1:22:24 Speaker 1 So I'm telling you there's different types of Hasidim.

1:22:26 Speaker 2 No, but, but why do we have to, why do we have to-

1:22:27 Speaker 1 I'm saying it because, you know, you have

1:22:29 Speaker 2 No, but like when the-- I'm, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. What I'm, what I'm, what I'm saying though is doesn't... Like, like, like you can't do everything.

1:22:38 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:22:38 Speaker 2 We, we, we can't stand , right? And, and, and like why is it that, that we like, you know, you say you weren't by Kirsh-- the entire Kirsh Habachah Rachmanus Lan, but, but how many people say that they were by Kirsh Habachah and they weren't by Ma'ariv Saidrah Rachmanus Lan? Never goes other way. It only goes this way. Why?

1:23:01 Speaker 1 Right.

1:23:01 Speaker 2 Is it, is it, is it because of Gimel Tamuz? Is it because of-

1:23:04 Speaker 1 No, no, no. My answer would be that each person should look themselves. And, and-

1:23:08 Speaker 2 Well-

1:23:08 Speaker 1 You know they say an expression in English, man's gotta know his limitations.

1:23:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:12 Speaker 1 So you gotta know-

1:23:13 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, why are we having- So, so, so my question is, is this a, is this a, is this a form of striving for the impossible or is this Rachmanus Lan?

1:23:29 Speaker 1 I, I-

1:23:29 Speaker 2 I feel like it's different.

1:23:30 Speaker 1 So don't take Tzimtzum Psuchah. You know, sometimes a Talmid-

1:23:32 Speaker 2 No, I'm not trying to catch you on it, guys.

1:23:33 Speaker 1 No, no, no.

1:23:34 Speaker 2 I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

1:23:35 Speaker 1 Sometimes a Talmid, Talmidim have... Not everything I do is B'dieved, so I'm explaining, I'm explaining.

1:23:40 Speaker 2 No, but I... Is it, is it true regret that you have or is it that you're saying, "Look, I wish I could have done everything"?

1:23:49 Speaker 1 Is it, is it... It's a bit of regret, but not, maybe not enough. What I mean to say is, you know, so the, so the a miser.

1:23:56 Speaker 2 But why is there regret is my question. Why is there regret? Like, uh, what were you-

1:24:00 Speaker 1 Because I, I'll tell you the truth-

1:24:01 Speaker 2 You're, you're upset that you weren't perfect.

1:24:04 Speaker 1 Father, forgive me, for I have sinned. What I mean to say is I, I-

1:24:07 Speaker 2 Is that how, is that how they daven in Australia?

1:24:10 Speaker 1 No. What I mean to say is I look at some people, some Hasidim, and they're jumping up and down and they're B'simcha. And I, I know it's felt by me. I don't have that level of enthusiasm and excitement and the Simchas Mitvah back office like, like Ploni Ben Ploni.

1:24:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:24:28 Speaker 1 I wish I did. So now it's something that I have to, I have to look at that person and say, "I aspire to have that mindset too."

1:24:34 Speaker 2 Say that. Say that. That's fine, but it's not Rachmanus Lan that I'm not like that. That's, that's my question. No, 'cause it-- I, I'm not trying to catch you on a word. It's more that a lot of times there's this kind of thing where like... 'Cause even the thing that you said about as a humbler, it's, it's, it's a, it's a beautiful story, and it-- there's, there, there, there's a resonance to it. I-i-in many ways it's, it's kind of similar, I think, to the part of the Baal Shem Tov, when the Shem comes into this world to do a Tikkun HaYid. Like, there's a sense with Hasidism in general, with Piros HaTeria, that, that you don't know what you're in this world for, right? And there are sometimes these things that might seem arbit-- like very small, but in them, in them is the entire miser, right? And, and, and, and that's it. In many ways, it's a very powerful and beautiful idea. Like, don't, don't construct this logical architecture of, of meaning and purpose. Life's a lot more mysterious and profound than that, and you don't know where it, where, where you're gonna find the spot, right? Um, it's a beautiful idea, but a lot of times that, that can kind of spin out of control-

1:25:43 Speaker 1 So let me-

1:25:44 Speaker 2 Where the entire Hasidus is to hold the door for the rabbi, right? And then you, you end up with Shvitz Chabad.

1:25:50 Speaker 1 Gedol HaShimushi Yesh LaModa. But let me, let me-

1:25:52 Speaker 2 Right. And you end up with Shvitz Chabad, and you end up with, with, with, with this kind of thing where if I dress this way and I'm standing in the right place at the right time, thus I give the Hasid. And the, and the bachur who, who maybe didn't understand the, the Godola, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the importance of the moment and was busy, I don't know, being Ma'ariv Saidrah Rachmanus Lan, he, he is not different. You see what I'm saying?

1:26:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:26:16 Speaker 2 It goes there.

1:26:17 Speaker 1 So, so two things. Number one, the Tzachak of everything is what man demands from zich is altbesser.

1:26:24 Speaker 2 Uh.

1:26:25 Speaker 1 So the Tzachak always is to demand from yourself more. That's what it's all about, and we're talking about more from zich.

1:26:31 Speaker 2 That's for sure, yeah.

1:26:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. My next point is, I believe this is a separate discussion. We have to make a book of the Chidush HaMidrabbah.

1:26:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:26:39 Speaker 1 One of the main Chidush HaMidrabbah, which I don't think you find in Hasidism with the other Rebbeim as much is-- and that's part of the idea why Rosh Hashiva's material and then, then Mashbia material when on Shlichas, is by the Rebbe one of the main things is an Avoda which transcends Kavan. That's like one of the Rebbe's main Inyonim. To zichron, um, Chelek Gimel, I think Shevi Shlo Pesach.

1:27:03 Speaker 2 One more-- One second. One second. Is that a pr-- Is-- I, I, I, I don't mean to cut you off, but you said this thing about the Rosh Hashiva's Mashbia and the one-

1:27:10 Speaker 1 Yeah I mean, I mean Rosh Hashanah material.

1:27:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. Is that something that you-

1:27:13 Speaker 1 Mishpacha material

1:27:14 Speaker 2 I understand. Is that something that you regret?

1:27:17 Speaker 1 What do you mean? I'm talking about there's people out there-

1:27:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. Is, is, is that something that makes you sad knowing, knowing what was lost?

1:27:24 Speaker 1 No.

1:27:25 Speaker 2 No.

1:27:25 Speaker 1 'Cause the rebbe knows better than me.

1:27:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:27:27 Speaker 1 You know, it's like the resembling the Baal HaGolah. The Alter Rebbe told this Chassid that he had to become Baal HaGolah.

1:27:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:27:34 Speaker 1 And whenever I say the story, it's-- I would say the story like imagine if the rebbe would call in the Beis Din and say, "You have to become a taxi driver."

1:27:40 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:41 Speaker 1 Like what, what the Alter Rebbe... And then after he finished-

1:27:43 Speaker 2 There, there would've been a lot of car accidents.

1:27:48 Speaker 1 And then, and then after he was Mekarev that person-

1:27:51 Speaker 2 Right

1:27:51 Speaker 1 ... then the Mitteler Rebbe told him many years later, "Now y- you finish your Shlichus."

1:27:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:56 Speaker 1 By the way, I was by a farbrengen once Shabbos in the mem's where the rebbe said over the story, and he said the story the Shlichim, they go on a Shlichus and they feel what are they accomplishing, and they're there for many years. And the rebbe brought the maise from the Baal HaGolah by the farbrengen, and he said, you know, more than one soul. So what are you complaining about?

1:28:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:22 Speaker 1 And the rebbe said the word, "Shlichus it's not that you're running a business like you have to see what you gain, the way you... That's it. Anyways.

1:28:33 Speaker 2 So you were saying the Rebbe was what? Chassidis-

1:28:34 Speaker 1 So, so one of the things I believe that's mamesh one of the Rebbe's main Chidushim is, and it's based I think on what he says in the Sichah means connected with you, you, you lay yourself down. So

1:28:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:52 Speaker 1 You gotta be Shmeinke. You gotta say You gotta say maybe the whatever it is, the call of the hour. Y- your leadership skills, and you're there in public service, and you're a one man army. You could do whatever is demanded the call of the hour. But that means, and, and the rebbe said it in I think in Numbers maybe or maybe in the whole take on the farbrengen was and that's the sign of Mashiach.

1:29:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:20 Speaker 1 And that's what the rebbe many Sichas come to this point. Your Avodas Hashem has to transcend a tzir.

1:29:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. Transcendence. Yeah.

1:29:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Now, obviously, the one who's mostly, if you're talented in, in this way, usually you utilize that, but at, but at the same time, don't get stuck in it.

1:29:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:41 Speaker 1 That's the word. So I'm answering you.

1:29:45 Speaker 2 What, w- what are you answering? You're answering about... Go ahead. W- where-

1:29:49 Speaker 1 That the Bachur who's, who's one way has to always look at the the other way-

1:29:52 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:29:52 Speaker 1 ... and realize, you know.

1:29:54 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Now, I, I, I... The reason I, I came back to that point about i- is because it's, it's, it's something that I keep on noticing and, you know, maybe I'm a hammer looking for a nail, but, you know, this, this, this idea of, we're talking about of, of transcending limitations and, and, and however, whatever the, the right words for it is, where, where you're, you're able to, um, not even combine, but to hold different opposites in, in, in, in, in, you know, together. Somehow it-- w- when you... In general, that's, that, that's asking a lot. Almost a- it's almost the, the, the, the, the idea of Tzidkat. It's, it's asking levels that are, that are not, that are not apparently accessible to, to, to most people. I, I'm not arguing with what the rebbe said, but when the Rebbe says everyone's a Tzadik, okay, say that. I, I understand that's what he said. I don't know what that means, right? Because a Tzadik is still a Tzadik, and I'm still who I am, and this person is still who he is. I don't know how the math works. It's a, it's a divine math that I don't understand. Um, but in practice, you know, very often, instead of what, instead of holding things in tension, things just become a balagan, right? And, a- and when you're talking about Hiskashrus, you know, I, I, I... There, there's something like, like it almost, it almost feels like it was inevitable that it would, it would

1:31:37 Speaker 2 come to dominate everything because asking someone to, to take learning Chassidus seriously and Chitas and Ma'amar Saidiy and whatever the things that you were doing, and also Kesher Achim. A- it's what do you, what do you, what do you want from pe- like people-- And, and not only that, you don't expect Kesher Achim to be by Kesher Achim. You're Kesher Achim because every time there is out, out your head, that's all that there is. How, like how does... I, I don't see how that ends up in a, in a, in a, in a, in a stable, forget about healthy, in a stable, um, like lasting, uh, life. Life s- like, like, like, like way of life. I, I see balagan and, and, and, and, and confusion and, um, yeah. That's what and, and that's what happened. It's not just me predicting. That's what happened in, in many cases. Not in all cases, but in many cases. You know, this whole kind of the, the, the, this whole kind of, uh, veering off into Shpitz Chabad and, and, and and all this stuff. I'm sure they have their value, and I'm sure they have their, their, their reasons for what, for what they were doing. But you see what I'm saying?

1:32:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's a lot-

1:32:50 Speaker 2 How, like how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you tie... When it came to Tanya earlier, you're like, Tzidkat is, is, is we, we need to know where the mountaintop is, right? But, but how do, how does w-- Is-- Can we say the same thing about Hiskashrus? Or, or is this, or is this Hiskashrus like in many cases, at least what I remember from Yeshiva, and I remember from my friends, is Hiskashrus is a mountaintop that doesn't tolerate you living at the bottom of the hill. Like- Uh, like anything less than the mountaintop is, you know what I'm saying?

1:33:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. So first of all, there's a s- there's a gem video with some person, I forgot who, tells the Rebbe, "You know, I don't think I could ever call myself a Hasid."

1:33:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:36 Speaker 1 And, and like he's talking to the Rebbe like-

1:33:38 Speaker 2 Right

1:33:38 Speaker 1 ... "I feel bad," or something like that. I forgot the, how it starts. But it was, but then the Rebbe tells him the following: "If you work on yourself that every single day will be better than the day before, I'll be honored or something to call you my Hasid." Something like that. That's what Rebbe answers. So I think we have to first, and I'm gonna say something else. Let's say you have a family. You have a-

1:34:00 Speaker 2 But is, but isn't that a loosening of the terms that you were talking about earlier?

1:34:03 Speaker 1 No, because I wanna give another moshol.

1:34:04 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:34:04 Speaker 1 You have a father and he has 10 kids. Now we're not talking about l- the r- a Rebbe, okay? That's like a separate... But generally speaking, yeah, he has, he has 10 kids, let's say. And they're all, they're all like the parents.

1:34:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:34:18 Speaker 1 And, and, and it's all positive. But whatever. One of them is more like this.

1:34:24 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:34:24 Speaker 1 One brings out the love-

1:34:25 Speaker 2 They're different.

1:34:25 Speaker 1 They, they're different. They're different. A- and the father knows it, you know?

1:34:29 Speaker 2 Right

1:34:30 Speaker 1 ... whatever. You understand what I'm trying to say?

1:34:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:34:34 Speaker 1 They're different. So it's the same thing. The Hasid, it's a p- I, I wanna go back to the point. W- we felt we love the Rebbe. And, and, and so one person, his Mesirut Nefesh is gonna be that he's going to

1:35:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:35:02 Speaker 1 And they wanna feel closer to the Rebbe. And, and that's what-- In other words, there's a general, a general feeling. "I wanna be from the Rebbe's boys. I wanna be from the Rebbe's boys." Now, some people have a Tonas Hanefesh that they're gonna stay every single minute by Kishva Bracha. What happens if you had another Bachur who didn't feel, uh, uh, you know, that his Hiskasdus, that his Hofke that he has to be there every single second? So maybe someone else looks at him like, " you, you idiot." Could be. But that person still feels love to the Rebbe and, and his Hiskasdus might, might this Hofke that he gets a Chassidus every single morning on time.

1:35:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:35:38 Speaker 1 And doesn't miss it. And he's doing it because of Hiskasdus. But his Hiskasdus, it's his them way. And this is, this is a general point which, which, which, which is, uh, should be an objective. But Davken Alex Hasidim, Hasidim ain't Mishpacha. Davken zitzen of ain't ish.

1:35:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:35:56 Speaker 1 And, and the Klementchuke with the Neviler with the Nikolaever. You know, each one has to be able to sit and, and realize, this is another whole subject agree to disagree.

1:36:07 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:36:08 Speaker 1 That's it. Do you understand Neviler? Say I Neviler. Do you understand Klementchuke? Say I Klementchuke. Do you understand Nikolaever? Say I Nikolaever. Each one has to be true to Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar. Each one has different ways-

1:36:20 Speaker 2 Right

1:36:20 Speaker 1 ... how you bring out your Hiskasdus. But, but the main thing is the Davar Hashaver by everyone is that they love the Rebbe, they wanna bring out, and that they're living to make, bring the Rebbe Nachas.

1:36:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:31 Speaker 1 That's what their life's about.

1:36:33 Speaker 2 Right. It's inter- I mean, it's interesting you bring up the Shvatim now. I'm thinking as you're saying it. It's interesting that un- until the Shvatim, until the Shvatim, there was always this fight between the two sons. There was, there was Yitzchak and Yishmael. There was Yaakov and Esav. And one son won, and the other son, in terms of Yiddishkeit, was that's it. You're out, right? The Shvatim, they fought. They fought, they fought a lot, right? But, but there, there was this idea, mitos ha-shelem, uh, th- they're all part of it, right? And, and that's how Chayai Shaul started. That's where it went from being, um, like this str- like this line to being something that goes horizontal. And of course, in the next generation, it just gets more and more diverse, and you end up having Dasan and Aviram. You know? Uh, like it, it, uh... But they're all, they're all on some level part of Chayai Shaul at that point. And yeah, it's, it's interesting that you're saying that. Um, just a thought that occurred to me.

1:37:31 Speaker 1 I think-

1:37:31 Speaker 2 The, the, the idea of being sitting at this, at the table, by the way, that's a symbolism of the podcast in many ways. I- it's always at a, at a table. It, it, it happened i- in many ways by happenstance. It just, it happens to be that in most places there's a table, and so you s... But I was thinking about it. There's a symbolism there where, like, if we need to sit down-

1:37:50 Speaker 1 What's

1:37:52 Speaker 2 Yeah, we sit at a table, right? You know, I don't have to agree with the person next to me, and most of the time the person doesn't agree with me, and that's why we sit there. Like, you sit at a table. A table gives you... What's the mice of a table? A table means you have some distance. You have some, you have a-

1:38:05 Speaker 1 Space

1:38:05 Speaker 2 ... you have a buffer-

1:38:06 Speaker 1 Safe space

1:38:06 Speaker 2 Yes. You have a buffer zone. You have a buffer zone, right? And, and you have advance warning if the, if the, if, if the potato salad is being thrown your way. But, but you're fart at the same table, right? And that, that, the, the... On one hand it gives you your i- your spaces, but it also, it also brings you together. And yeah, so I, I think what you're saying, uh, at least the way I'm understanding what you're saying, and tell me if I'm wrong, is Hiskasdus in many ways, it- it's, it, it... The question is, how is it defined? Is it defined as something that is achieved through the, the, the Mekushar, the, through the Hasid? In which case it takes a different form and a different shape in each person. And like you said, uh, if, you know, one person, he, he, his connection he finds in, in Kishva Bracha. Another person, his connection he finds in, in waking up-

1:39:01 Speaker 1 How others-

1:39:01 Speaker 2 ... two sometimes

1:39:02 Speaker 1 ... learn Shas.

1:39:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And, and, and another person, strangely enough, finds his connection in being Ma'avet Kedarah, whatever it is, right? And in that, in that sense, it, it, the Hiskasdus becomes, it, it, it's something that's almost like wh- wh- what I think Rav explains about shemen, right? You don't eat oil on its own, but it's

1:39:24 Speaker 1 Right.

1:39:25 Speaker 2 It's in everything, but it's never really on its own because it's, it's too pure to have on its own. Although today people are starting to, interestingly enough, people are starting to have olive oil on its own for health benefits. But, you know, it's, it, Hiskasdus is something that you find in everything, but it's, it's not s- it's not something that you can define on its own because on its own it becomes balagan. You know what I mean? A- a- and very uniform. I, and I think that to me is, uh, the... I don't know if you meant it as an answer, but to me, that's an answer that I can take or that I can understand where, uh, like if you, if you're trying to w- what's pure distilled Hiskasdus that everyone... Well, good luck. I mean, it, it, it's, it's, it's too pure. It's too pure, and in a way, by making it objective and official, you're losing the whole point, Because if, if, if I don't connect with what you're calling connection, then what's the point? And if you're gonna force down a ver- a, a, a strain of hiskashtrus down my throat that doesn't make me feel connected, then am I really connected?

1:40:29 Speaker 3 So to recap-

1:40:31 Speaker 2 Is that, is that a fair assessment of what you're saying?

1:40:33 Speaker 3 Yeah, but I w- I would put it to, to be ‹magdi› the ‹reishes›, first is a sense of loyalty, like, like a child to a parent. So, so, like, like, you have to ask yourself the question: Am I f- am I one of the Rebbe's boys?

1:40:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:47 Speaker 3 So, so... And, and it's an honest question. What makes me one of the Rebbe's boys, you know?

1:40:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:53 Speaker 3 A- a- and if you're honest, you'll ask yourself that question, and then try to live up to that. Now, I think another thing about the Rebbe's ‹chidush› is I don't think any other leader-

1:41:04 Speaker 2 What, what, what do you mean by Rebbe's boys? What, what's, what's the point that you're making?

1:41:08 Speaker 3 Like, like, if someone asks, "Are, are you ‹mekushet› to your father?"

1:41:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:12 Speaker 3 I hope you are.

1:41:13 Speaker 2 Like connection on a very basic level.

1:41:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:41:16 Speaker 2 Like-

1:41:16 Speaker 3 If you think about this, is my father happy? How's my father doing?

1:41:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:20 Speaker 3 And you care about your father.

1:41:21 Speaker 2 Do I care? Do I care?

1:41:22 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:41:23 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:41:23 Speaker 3 So hiskashtrus means the Rebbe is like th- overrides everything else i- in a way, you know?

1:41:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:30 Speaker 3 If you're honest, like-

1:41:31 Speaker 2 Do I ca- do I care?

1:41:32 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:41:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:33 Speaker 3 And then, and then how do you express it?

1:41:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:35 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:41:35 Speaker 2 But that's, that's already more specific to the person.

1:41:38 Speaker 3 Yeah, and loyalty.

1:41:39 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:40 Speaker 3 Loyalty. So I want to say two points. One... Oh, so I'm saying the ‹chidush› of the Rebbe, one of the ‹chidush› of the Rebbe that I believe nobody else spoke about this dichotomy about ‹bitul› and metz- and ‹metzius›.

1:41:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:41:56 Speaker 3 And really it starts from Alter Rebbe. ‹Dadomos Malachet› is one of the most modern documents that ever was written. It's amazing. We're not gonna get into it now, it's so late.

1:42:07 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:42:07 Speaker 3 But the whole idea of ‹dadomos malachet› is the Alter Rebbe saying, 'cause the person's asking, "What about me? Where's my place in Judaism?"

1:42:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:16 Speaker 3 Now, you think about it, the Alter Rebbe is not talking like a right-wing fundamentalist preacher. He'll say, "Well it's ‹hefsek hashas›."

1:42:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:25 Speaker 3 "‹Kabbalah› seil."

1:42:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:26 Speaker 3 What do you mean? And the whole Sefer HaTanya is, is trying to keep your individuality and how you should feel excited by ‹Yiddishkeit›.

1:42:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:35 Speaker 3 And to find your path, your individualistic path.

1:42:39 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:39 Speaker 3 At the same time, there's Judaism, yeah? Now, the Rebbe, ‹kol shemecha kavach›, I don't think anybody ever spoke about this ‹bitul› and ‹metzius› together.

1:42:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:42:48 Speaker 3 How you, you... There's a greater cause.

1:42:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:50 Speaker 3 Become part of something greater than yourself.

1:42:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:53 Speaker 3 But at the same time, retaining your specific individuality.

1:42:57 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:42:57 Speaker 3 So it's the same thing with hiskashtrus.

1:42:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:59 Speaker 3 It's about you transcending, you becoming part of something which is greater than yourself, but the Rebbe wants you to be you. Like you said, if somebody's gonna try to force it down and it doesn't gel, it's not in sync with your individuality-

1:43:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:43:12 Speaker 3 ... then it's not gonna work.

1:43:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:43:14 Speaker 3 And you see always by the Rebbe this approach that there's the story about that coach, I forgot what his name was. You know, the, the guy who was a coach for the Harlem Globetrotters.

1:43:22 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:43:22 Speaker 3 He stood before Rebbe.

1:43:23 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:43:24 Speaker 3 So the, the, the story starts off that he showed up to 770 one day, and he just told the Rebbe, "I'm a coach." And the Rebbe said, "That's what I need right now in my life, a coach." Like, ep- essentially that's the way the story goes. In other words, the Rebbe knew how to everyone fits into the Rebbe's family, into the Rebbe's mission.