Ep. 8 // "Empower the Individual" with Rabbi Moshe New

00:00 Speaker 1 When I was a kid growing up, a fabrenger was people. Who you? Right. Who you? You know, the point was to strip someone. No, no, no. It's to empower. On the contrary, it's to empower your everything. If it's not going to empower the individual, then it's not, this is not, this is not it.

00:25 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2023. My name is Bentzi Avsin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Okay, so I'm here in Montreal at the Montreal Torah Center with Rabbi Moshe Nu, uh, who was gracious enough to, uh, give me the time and give this podcast the time on a Thursday afternoon. I'm sure you have many other things to do, um, and thank you for joining. Before we begin, I do want to also, um, reminisce a little bit and, uh, thank you as well for something from many years ago. Um, when I first started, after I got married, uh, this project called Yuvlah, which, uh, you know, in some way or another is the origin story of this. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna recount now the whole journey, but, um, you know, Yuvlah was a idea to have a, a newsletter in Chabad houses for Yom Tovim with longer form, uh, deeper, deeper dive essays into Halakha and Kabbalah and Chassidus and so on. Um, I put together a few essays, and I reached out to a few shluchim to put it on their Chabad houses. Um, I didn't ask for any money. It was free of charge. For whatever reason, not too many people were interested in that either, even though, I mean, there were a few. Some people thought I had an angle, I guess. I don't know. I don't remember. And I was also a newbie. I was a nobody.

02:09 Speaker 2 I was just, I was fresh, fresh out of kolel, I guess. And in any case, Rabbi Nu was gracious enough then to, uh, right away, um, be open to it and provide his feedback. And, uh, I think even I renamed one of the essays based on your advice. I don't know if you remember. But in any case, I, I owe you a, um, I owe you a thank you for that back then. And, uh, thank you again for agreeing to do this. So, um, I figured we'd begin by something that I've, um, I've always, I've always wondered about the Nu family in Australia because, um, I did spend a few years as a child in Australia, and I did get to know your parents, Rabbi, uh, not Rabbi, Mr. Max, Mr. Mendel and Asya Nu. Um, your mother, your mother, of course, is also related to my family, um, to my grandmother. And so we got to know them. We, we saw, I, I, I saw the home that you grew up, grew up in, I assume. That's the same home. And so the question then becomes, growing up in, growing up off Balaclava Road in East St. Kilda-

03:24 Speaker 1 From the age of 13, but yeah.

03:25 Speaker 2 From the age of 13.

03:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:26 Speaker 2 But you, you lived somewhere else before then? Right. But you, you, you grew up-- It's, it's a beautiful community. It's a very, very, um, it's a, it's a very well-off community. Um, it's a beautiful life that you lived down, down under. Uh, how did you end up here? And how did you end up in 770 in Lubavitch and then eventually in Montreal? So I thought we'd start off digging, digging a little bit there. What was it like to grow up as a child in Australia? Did you grow up as a Lubavitch kid? Is that how you saw yourself? What was it like?

04:01 Speaker 1 Uh, initially, no. Believe it or not, notwithstanding the fact that my mother and her parents, Reb Isser and Chai Sher Klugand, were directed by the Friediker Rebbe to come to Australia. They didn't see themselves as shluchim. In fact, the word shliach I didn't even hear growing up till, I'll tell you, the, the first set of shluchim bachurim that came in 1967, Leibele Katmon, olive Shalom, and, and that group, they weren't even called shluchim either. They were called the bachurim. It was only the second or third group that Australia started to develop spiritually, the yeshiva, and there were other bachurim that they became known as shluchim. It was the bachurim first. But the Lubavitchers that came, they were sent. Reb Zamels, Reb Bransky, sent by the Friediker Rebbe, the, uh, he was the official representative of Lubavitch, also related to you.

04:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:58 Speaker 1 Um, Rabbi Groen, later, the word shliach didn't exist. They were Lubavitch, and we all knew they were sent. So I didn't consider myself anything. There were virtually no labels around. There weren't labels, um, of any kind. Um, the school, the Lubavitch Yeshiva, most of the children in my class were from non-observant homes.

05:24 Speaker 2 Yeshiva College.

05:25 Speaker 1 Yeshiva College, yeah. Um, things really changed in terms of my identity and how I saw myself and the big picture when the Rebbe sent the bachurim, the first group, the first six, and the subsequent groups. They really changed the landscape in that way for my generation. And so I would say already at, uh, I was 10, the first group arrived. Already at... I guess at bar mitzvah, I would've said I'm Chabad, perhaps. No one would even ask you, so I, I... Um, what are you? Who are you? But 15, 16 then Hasid or aspiring to be a Hasid, and the shluchim made a huge impact to Bachim. I, I, I wanted to be like them. My father relates the story. Not my father, actually. Flamen Majeski from that first group told me many years later when I came to 770 already. He said it was two weeks after we arrived, the first group in those days, 1967. And he said, "Your father wanted to encourage us," and, uh, so he says, "Herve, itchen gepeyot. You've a-already accomplished something." He said, "I overheard someone ask my son Moshe, 'What do you wanna be when you grow up?' And he said, 'I wanna be like them,' pointing to you guys." Apparently, you guys were there. So this was at 10 even. They'd made such an impact. And this is, uh, strange perhaps to your listeners because my Zayde seemed part of the Fedikereb, uh, Hasid, a long white beard. But, uh, it was all very organic. The

06:55 Speaker 1 school was a, was a, was a community school. We learned two hours a day Limudei Kodesh from 9:00 to 11:00.

07:03 Speaker 2 Right.

07:03 Speaker 1 From 11:00 to 4:00 was Limudei Chol. Later as we got older, the secular studies, we learned Mishnayos for the last hour, and then later after midday, a little bit Kol Hayoim, the Olé Torah kind of, uh, system began for those that wanted it.

07:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I remember I was, I was in Yeshivah College, like I said, and, um, I think my days in the elementary school was still half and half. I think, uh, in Mesivta, like the high school, they were giving an option.

07:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:31 Speaker 2 Um, and it was still, but in my days, which was many years after you, um, I learned with some of your nephews. Um, it was still a mix of a school where, like, half of, half of the class were from Lubavitch families, and half of them-

07:48 Speaker 1 Well, in my day-

07:49 Speaker 2 Was not even half

07:50 Speaker 1 Not, no.

07:51 Speaker 2 Okay.

07:51 Speaker 1 Frum was, you know, observant was, was some. If Lubavitch was a handful of Lubavitchers-

07:56 Speaker 2 Right

07:56 Speaker 1 ... all my teachers growing up were not Lubavi-

07:58 Speaker 2 Right

07:58 Speaker 1 ... not, not one of them, except later on. Later on, they weren't Lubavitchers.

08:02 Speaker 2 Did you, did you know your grandfather? Did-- Was he alive when you grew up?

08:06 Speaker 1 Rabbi Isser?

08:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:06 Speaker 1 Of course.

08:07 Speaker 2 He-

08:07 Speaker 1 Passed away after I was married.

08:09 Speaker 2 So you grew up with him?

08:10 Speaker 1 Yes.

08:10 Speaker 2 And so when you grew up with him, you see this, um, this

08:15 Speaker 1 Hmm

08:15 Speaker 2 ... d'mus of a Hasid from, you know, as, as, as, as real as it gets, and then with the broken English, right? I'm sure. Um, and then you see your father. Your father didn't grow up in Australia.

08:28 Speaker 1 He was born in Australia.

08:29 Speaker 2 He was born in Australia.

08:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:30 Speaker 2 Okay. So you grew up with a, a Hasid of a father. A, a grandfather who looks like a Hasid from Russia, is a Hasid from Russia. A father who grew up in Australia. Um, how did you, like... I, I know you said that you didn't see yourself as a Lubavitcher until the shluchim came, but what was that like? Um, like w- did you, did you connect at all to who your grandfather in the, was in the world that he came from, or was it too distant?

08:58 Speaker 1 Hmm, good question. Um, I definitely connected. It was distant in a way. It was. It was. Um, he was just there. He was a, we knew he was a Hasid, a Lubavitcher, and we were a Frum family, you know, so.

09:15 Speaker 2 Right.

09:15 Speaker 1 But just to give an idea, you could count on one hand in those days in Australia, in Melbourne, those who kept, observed Chalav Yisrael.

09:24 Speaker 2 Right.

09:24 Speaker 1 We didn't.

09:25 Speaker 2 You didn't?

09:26 Speaker 1 No, until, till much, till I was 13, 14, it became more available, and I started asking for it. But my Zayde, some of my Zayde, I mean, he was very Frum, a Hasid, and, uh, only had Chalav Yisrael in the house, which meant there wasn't much dairy product. I would go there as a kid every six weeks or so and spend Shabbats. This is where we, before we moved to that part of town. Uh, he was kind of a Makivdiker, a figure in the, on the peripheral. Although he taught. He, uh, he didn't teach me personally, but he taught in the school.

10:02 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

10:02 Speaker 1 He taught in the school. But it, there wasn't a great emphasis of Chabad or Lubavitch. We used to have, in the school, and this was deliberate, I guess. We used to have ral- uh, r- gatherings, Yiddei Talmud, Yitras Kislev. But for the most part, our teachers were, were Holocaust survivors and not Lubavitchers. They were Litvisher, Ungarisher, Polish. And so in the classroom growing up, very little-

10:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

10:28 Speaker 1 ... Chabad influence. I didn't know what a Tanya was.

10:32 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:33 Speaker 1 Never heard the word Tanya till 13, probably. Today, it's shocking. There's no kid that doesn't. But then the Chabad component was peripheral. There was a Rebbe they had sent, and kind of in the background. It was, it was a, the, a Torah day school. I grew up really in a Torah day school atmosphere, largely.

10:56 Speaker 2 I mean, I, I guess, I guess what I'm asking is, or what I'm thinking about is that, you know, I, I... Is there a phone ringing? I'm, I'm, I'm-

11:07 Speaker 1 It's on silent

11:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I'm hearing something else. Like I, I, I, I think a lot about, um, trajectories, like, like, like the patterns of, of, of where things are going. Um, you know, so it's just unt- you, you, you, you mention the shluchim being this kind of defining point, but until that time, it seems that if you were to map out where things are going for the Yidden in Australia, you have the typical story of the Zayde Holocaust survivor with the beard. The, you know, the next generation who's Frum but with a beard or not a beard, Love Davka, right? And then the grandkids. Like, where do you think you would have ended up? H- like, it seems like, you know, you probably would've been Frum, right? But, like, very Australian, you know? Like-

11:55 Speaker 1 No, I would have probably, I would hope, still been Frum. I always, apparently, and I do remember this, my father mentioned this. I was always drawn towards Jewish studies. I loved it. I loved the, I loved the, just the, the Jewish studies more than the secular studies, so just drawn towards it. I would imagine I would've been Frum, and like most Australians, gone to university, become some, some kind of academic.

12:17 Speaker 2 That's probably what you would've been.

12:17 Speaker 1 Probably.

12:18 Speaker 2 You've been a very Australian, you know, uh, religious Jew, observant Jew, but like very Australian, probably with an identity more Australian than anything else.

12:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:30 Speaker 1 I'm not drawn to business. I would've pro- gone into academia somehow.

12:33 Speaker 2 Right.

12:33 Speaker 1 I'm sure.

12:34 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. So, and so like, what I'm thinking about is you have, you know... We all-- In Lubavitch a lot of times we talk about, you know, American assimilation, right? But what's interesting about this story, at least at the beginning of it, is that in many ways, that same trend was happening, was happening for you. Um, and y- what, what, what's to me, what's to me especially interesting about that is that we assume also that it can't happen to us. You know, that's what happens to, that's what happens to the Reform, let's say. You know, that's what happens to people that have left the Derek or whatever. But in, in, in the story that you're telling me, you know, your, your Zayde was a chassid. Your father's a frum yid. I remember your father, right? And, and, um, you know, you still see that trend, and so it's very interesting to think about where that trend was going, um, how it turned, but also to think about there's no guarantee. Like, there's no guarantees that things stay static, you know? We-- I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, to-today there's always this kind of shock, like, "Oh my goodness, people are not the way their parents are. They're, they're not the way their grandparents are." This is how it's always been, right?

13:52 Speaker 1 It's the, the natural progression.

13:54 Speaker 2 This is how it's always been, and it's always a, it's always an uphill battle. It's always a, it's always a fight. It's always a, it's always a loch d'afka.

14:01 Speaker 1 Although, although there is this element, means the great Nevuah, "VeYeshev levav avos al banim," that the last generation will be generation, "Le'rov la'lechem ul'tzama lamaim kin lishmeret divrei Hashem." The '60s were a turbulent time, and people were searching. So, you know, it may have happened that, uh, in this search that really was-- it was kind of a universal thing. It would've led some, myself included, back to Yiddishkeit, but that, that would've been, you know, almost a-

14:30 Speaker 2 Well-

14:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not trying-

14:31 Speaker 2 A mazal thing, not a trend. Right. I'm not trying to know exactly where you would end up, 'cause we don't know.

14:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:36 Speaker 2 And, and, and really it's irrelevant 'cause this is where you ended up.

14:38 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:38 Speaker 2 Who cares where you might have ended up? But, uh, you know, just I think the trend, the trend line was going-

14:44 Speaker 1 Definitely

14:44 Speaker 2 ... very noticeably in a direction.

14:45 Speaker 1 For sure.

14:46 Speaker 2 And, um, I, I, I think just that's just important to, to point out and think about. So you-

14:52 Speaker 1 So if measures aren't taken-

14:53 Speaker 2 Yeah

14:54 Speaker 1 ... and we just allow things to, to, um, organically unfold, that's where that's going to go. Yeah.

15:00 Speaker 2 Especially when, especially when, and I think we'll get back to this later on, especially when you have such a, uh, such a, um, I don't wanna say a negative word, but such a significant and substantial change in the underpinning conditions, in the sense that your Zayde, even though he was your grandfather, and I'm, I'm sure you had a very special bond with him on a family personal level, he grew up in a world that was utterly foreign to you. I mean, I'm g- I'm, I'm speculating here, but I'm also pretty sure. I mean, just-

15:32 Speaker 1 Definitely

15:32 Speaker 2 ... subjectively.

15:33 Speaker 1 And he did not seek to impose it or influence.

15:36 Speaker 2 And he also wouldn't be able to y- because he would be one man-

15:39 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:39 Speaker 2 ... surrounded by, surrounded by a-

15:41 Speaker 1 I often wonder why he didn't e-exert more influence-

15:44 Speaker 2 Mm

15:44 Speaker 1 ... make demands.

15:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:45 Speaker 1 He didn't. None.

15:47 Speaker 2 That was his personality.

15:49 Speaker 1 No, he was a very strong personality. He, he was a, he was a, a, a, um, takif, and he was a, a kanoi in many ways personally, but not demanding that of others.

16:02 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:04 Speaker 1 Ne-ne-never even suggested anything to me. I should do this or the other. Taught me my bar mitzvah, my pilpul, my mamar.

16:12 Speaker 2 He taught you a mamar?

16:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. Although the-- interestingly enough, in those days, we, we were the... a handful, three, four boys, and have us said a mamar.

16:21 Speaker 2 In what language?

16:22 Speaker 1 In Yiddish.

16:22 Speaker 2 You spoke Yiddish?

16:23 Speaker 1 My first language was Yiddish, actually. Spoke Yiddish at home.

16:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:26 Speaker 1 And, uh, and, uh, uh, uh-

16:28 Speaker 2 Both of your parents held onto that?

16:29 Speaker 1 A decision my parents made. By the time the other kids came along, it, it dissipated, but that's how we were brought up, interestingly enough, which serves me, has served me well.

16:41 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:41 Speaker 1 Um, just the mamar that I said was not in the sing-song melody the way a mamar is said. I didn't even know there was one, frankly.

16:49 Speaker 2 Right.

16:49 Speaker 1 I pushed it, said it, you know, by heart, the whole thing. Ma-mamar in Yiddish, I figured because Yiddish, my mother, and there's a, there's a safe, my mother in Yiddish, was published at the time in the newspapers, is my mother. So, but we said a mamar. I got a letter from-

17:02 Speaker 2 Oh, that's the mamar you said. You didn't say the bar, the bar mitzvah mamar.

17:05 Speaker 1 No, not in bar mitzvah mamar.

17:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

17:07 Speaker 1 Got a letter from the Rebbe. Uh, my tefillin, well Lubavitch tefillin, but not dal dal dal. Not the size of that's now uniform. But in the time, the Rebbe Nachman Shnevster came later when the Rebbe came out, put him lamed vav. Um, so for sure it wasn't been in the time. But even the Rashis were, were just, well, smaller, maybe a little bit bigger than my friends, but-

17:26 Speaker 2 Olam HaShem.

17:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Aguddel, not even Alter Rebbe.

17:30 Speaker 2 Your, your Z- But, like, your Zayde would see you ever drink or eat something that wasn't cholov Yisroel?

17:36 Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah.

17:37 Speaker 2 And it, it didn't bother him, at least not-

17:38 Speaker 1 I'm sure it did.

17:39 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying he didn't, he didn't, like, get nervous or make you feel bad about it.

17:44 Speaker 1 No, that's for sure not. I think in his mind, you know, how did I, I rationalize it? It wasn't available. It was diffi- it was, but with difficulty. Certainly no chocolate cholov Yisroel-

17:56 Speaker 2 Right

17:56 Speaker 1 ... no ice cream, nothing. The only thing was no, you know, cheeses even. The only thing that available was, I think cheeses they imported. It was milk, and it wasn't pasteurized and would often go-

18:06 Speaker 2 Bad, yeah.

18:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:09 Speaker 1 He was happy. I'm sure he was happy that his kids were f- his, his daughter married a Frum in Gemach.

18:15 Speaker 2 Right.

18:15 Speaker 1 The, the kids are Frum. We are all, you know, tzitzit wearing, yarmulke wearing, and going to Lubavitch Yeshiva. My brother, second brother's Yosef Yitzchak, you know. He got, I guess he got the choice for the second boy. Yeah. He never even expressed, interestingly enough, not, it's not about my Zayde, this, this podcast, but now that you ask, in my journey becoming the Hasid, it was never like, "Well done," a pat on the back, "You should care" for anything. Nothing, really. No, nothing.

18:44 Speaker 2 So, like, a- as you came home, I'm sure at some points in your journey back from 770 or whatever, you didn't feel like, "Okay, now he's proud of me."

18:53 Speaker 1 More or less than before? No. I presumed he was.

18:57 Speaker 2 Right.

18:57 Speaker 1 But he didn't show any, any different... Wasn't a different relationship.

19:02 Speaker 2 Hmm. That's so interesting.

19:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

19:03 Speaker 2 I mean, 'cause I, I, I've, I have in a way gotten the sense of that from others as well.

19:08 Speaker 1 Hmm.

19:09 Speaker 2 Um, not, not exactly the same kind of story, but it does seem, and I g- I guess this is all anecdotal, so I, I can't draw a full conclusion from it, but it seems like that generation almost had a little bit more trust that things would work out somehow, some way. I don't know if it was maybe after the devastation that they saw, uh, whether it was the Holocaust or, or s- you know, the, the, the communists and the whole world was destroyed. They figured that, like you said, just having frum grandchildren was already in itself, and like, and now they're just playing with house money at this point, right? I don't know if that's what it was, but it does seem, 'cause I, I was just talking, uh, I was talking a few weeks to Mrs. Gorelick from, from Italy. Um, and she was, she said a few stories about like, you know, uh, episodes that she had in high school that today would, could have easily, could easily, you know, be level four alarm. You know, what's this girl up to, and how, you know, like, warning signs. And like, the people, the, the, her parents and her principal were a lot more thoughtful and, and trusting about it. And, you know, so just, it just, I mean, I'm just drawing from a few anecdotes, but I'm trying to piece together some kind of understanding from that. It could be that they... Yeah, I mean, it could be they realize also what you

20:37 Speaker 2 were saying before, that organically things are going to go in a certain way. So to expect things to be static is, is, is, is-

20:49 Speaker 1 Not reasonable

20:50 Speaker 2 ... it's not reasonable. And yeah. I, I think in that sense, I think a lot has changed since then. So, uh, let's go back to that. But first, let, let's try to keep the story chronologically 'cause, um, uh, God knows that I can get lost in a tangent. Um, so Leibel Kaplan comes, and within a couple weeks, you, you are, uh, you revere this group of boys.

21:15 Speaker 1 I'm enamored, yeah.

21:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. We, we have to paint the picture for, for people listening to this 'cause most, most, most people here have not been to Australia. I mean, you go to Australia, at least when I was there, I'm sure it was like that in your days. At that age, everything is about footy, right? Uh, I don't know which team your family went for.

21:33 Speaker 1 Carlton.

21:34 Speaker 2 Carlton, obviously. Okay. That's what I went for when I was there. They, they almost got there this year. Whatever, right? But, um, yeah. So like, it, it's hard to express to people, like Australian Jewry is a very interesting kind of... It do- I don't think it exists elsewhere, where, um, very proud Jews, very real about their Yiddishkeit, but also very real about their Australianness, right?

21:59 Speaker 1 Ba- and barbies, barbecues.

22:00 Speaker 2 And barbecues, of course. And I mean, in general, they live a good life. They live a very good life, especially today. The-

22:07 Speaker 1 Sports was a huge part of our lives

22:08 Speaker 2 ... sports, gosh, I mean, it's the world.

22:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:11 Speaker 2 Life is very, very real over there, and, and, and thank God they have a lot of it. Um, so I just, I'm saying that not to, not to, uh, bring up your, your past misdeeds, although it doesn't seem like you're embarrassed of them anyhow, but more just to paint a picture of like, you know, a 10-year-old has these footy stars, you know, uh, the, the, the, these football stars that he, that he has their cards of perhaps or just knows about them. And then this group of bearded men with hats come from New York. You know, from a, from a cloistered Lubavitch perspective, it's like, yeah, sure, the shluchim were, you know, they, they were, you know, they, of course, m- made an impression on a young boy. But when you live in Australia for a little bit, it's like, "Why?" You know? Um, like, this guy doesn't know how to play football. Like, what's his deal? Why do you think after just a couple weeks, all of a sudden they captured your attention?

23:08 Speaker 1 It's hard to say, especially as a 10-year-old. But, um, I don't know, they exuded... There was a joy about them. They exuded like a real kind of... Of course, way too young to identify any of this, but I'm just looking back. There was a joy about them. Um, they were cool. You know, they were... I think, since you're asking, I'm thinking now. On the one hand, they're the Hasid like my Zayde, and yet they're Americans, and-

23:42 Speaker 2 Hmm

23:42 Speaker 1 ... they speak a perfect English, and they're cool, and they connect to us, and they relate to us. That was, I guess, disarming. That was something unique.

23:51 Speaker 2 They brought to- they brought together-

23:52 Speaker 1 A relatable-

23:53 Speaker 2 ... the different parts of your life.

23:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:54 Speaker 2 Your Zayde and your father and-

23:56 Speaker 1 That's right. A relatable Hasid.

23:57 Speaker 2 Hmm.

23:59 Speaker 1 A relatable Hasid. Um, yeah. Made, they made such an impression. I can tell you, I, I, I remember each one of them in vivid detail, that first group, and the next groups too. Um, I tell you, the suits they wore, I mean, the shoes that they wore, like, still remember. Everything about them was, like, interest... I don't know, fascinating. It was fascinating.

24:26 Speaker 2 When did you realize that, like, it's not just about their camaraderie and their, and their charisma, but there's something behind them? And like-

24:37 Speaker 1 It took a few years. It took a few years. Shloime Modjeski had a profound influence on us. He was the, the pied piper. We, we loved and we adored him. Messibi Shabbes, the stories, he was just incredible. Um, and the stories. The stories. Believe it or not, we weren't told stories. Hasidic stories.

24:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:57 Speaker 1 At my Zayde's table, when I was there Friday night, he would tell, he would read from seven Sefer HaChassidim, whatever. But they started telling us stories, and the stories drew us in. The stories drew us in. Baal Shem Tov, Chassidus. Again, our teachers were not Lubavitchers. Chabad Chassidus was not on the curriculum in, in the Lubavitch yeshiva in those days. It just, it just wasn't. I never heard of the book Tanya, you know, till I was almost bar mitzvah, a bit earlier. So they, they introduced us to this world. Camp, camp had a big influence. Camp had a big influence. Being with them twenty-four/seven, although it was only a 10-day camp, it had a profound influence. The songs, the Chayas, the stories, the... And then slowly but surely, you know, the realization. To me, Rebbe, till I was-- till they came, and even later, was a picture on my zeide's wall. There was a picture, a painting. It wasn't even a photograph, a painting of-

26:03 Speaker 3 Of the Frierdiker Rebbe?

26:05 Speaker 1 Of the Rebbe, of the, of our Rebbe. So I knew we had a, there was a Rebbe, but you can just unrelated.

26:10 Speaker 3 What was your zeide's relationship with the Rebbe? Did he-- Or he had gone straight from the Frierdiker Rebbe to Australia and...

26:17 Speaker 1 But related is related is he's first by zeide was first cousins with the Rebbetzin Chana.

26:21 Speaker 3 Oh, okay. So they're related.

26:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. Act- first cousins both ways because a brother and a sister married a brother and sister from both his father and mother. Um, the story, that's not for now, but the story my grandfather coming to Australia is fascinating because our Rebbe when he came to Paris wanted my zeide to be a rav in Montreal, and wrote letters then, I have copies of them, to Rabbi Kramer to arrange a visa because there was a Lavut family which he living in Montreal that would sponsor him. And the Rebbe worked very hard that my zeide should go. My zeide didn't feel he was rav material. In his mind, you have to be a barking shas and dalet chalki Shulchan Aruch. The Rebbe said to him once, "This is all in Paris. What do you have to know really? Kitzeh Shulchan Aruch, I'll show you the madam Akemis with a smile. I mean, you can be a rav." So actually, this is all in parenthesis, when I got engaged to my wife, who's a Montreal girl, Muhammad nee Tritel, Rabbi Kramer then gave me gift photocopy of the two letters that the Rebbe sent him from the hotel where he stayed in Paris, 1947, and said now he understood 'cause he could never-- he, he always found it puzzling that the Frierdiker Rebbe wanted Australia. Our Rebbe, uh, uh, uh, Montreal, and our Rebbe was the Frierdiker Rebbe's biggest Chassid and-

27:33 Speaker 3 Oh, so the Frierdiker Rebbe was sending him to Australia, and the Rebbe was sending him-

27:36 Speaker 1 A kind of... Yeah.

27:38 Speaker 3 Oh, okay.

27:38 Speaker 1 When Rebbe went back to America, he sent like a telegram saying it's forget it. It was Mishtatel. I tried.

27:44 Speaker 3 Hmm.

27:44 Speaker 1 It's Australia, and that's where you're gonna go. But he was Mishtatel, and it was clear he was Mishtatel even knowing the Frierdiker Rebbe was directing towards Australia till he said that's Adkaan. So Rabbi Kramer said, "I could never understand this."

27:58 Speaker 3 Hmm.

27:58 Speaker 1 He found it puzzling 'cause he knew. He says, "And his answer was now I understand both things had to be. For some reason, the Rebbe saw fit to create the Montreal connection in Paris," and that was when I was just engaged. Then when Shlichas came along, and we had several options, and one of them was to be a rav in a neighboring town called Chamedy, neighboring to Montreal. The Rebbe wrote, "Nechon ve'tov ve'hatzah." I didn't know this Rabbi. Yomán Klein told me this unusual answer. Usually, Nechon, tov, or just underline, ask a latzian. This double expression like very good idea, you know, go to. So we've kind of felt that somehow this was in the works a long time ago, and, and I'm told I look like him or I have-

28:39 Speaker 3 You look like your grandfather.

28:40 Speaker 1 Or have, you know, his disposition in some way. Halevi. Um, some of his mannerisms certainly. For some reason, there was set in motion back there. So both things had to be Nisgayem.

28:50 Speaker 3 Australia.

28:50 Speaker 1 Australia, Melbourne, and Montreal. In fact, I just-- There was a point when the community where I was staying, Chamedy, was, was, uh, declining. Numbers-wise, it just wasn't viable anymore. And I had offers oth- in other places to go, other places in the world. And then there was the idea of opening a Torah center here. I wrote to the Rebbe and all the choices. This was the last one. And I wrote, "I don't prefer this, and I want the Rebbe to send me. Send me far away."

29:19 Speaker 3 You had enough of Montreal?

29:21 Speaker 1 No, just the idea of Shlichas, of, of being far away, uh, not being with family, just without the comforts.

29:27 Speaker 3 Right.

29:27 Speaker 1 My wife is a Montrealer. There is a Meravek Shikin again. Send me, Shlich us, send me in the Merchakim. That's what I wrote. I'd prefer it was Sydney, it was Chicago, and it was another place. And then there was Hatzot. So the Rebbe answered, "Kadima le Canada."

29:45 Speaker 3 Hmm.

29:46 Speaker 1 I showed Rabbi Mochkin, he said, "First of all, Canada was very... I mean, Montreal." So as if to say, "You asked to be sent somewhere, we will send to Canada. It's another country with..." And Kadima also means, you know, not just preference, preferable on all of the above options, but also Kadima, you know, forward march. You're given a Shlichas, rather you're... So it's very clear after that answer as well that Canada, Montreal, uh, is my place.

30:13 Speaker 3 Yeah. It's interesting how, how it worked out that way.

30:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

30:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, so there, there was a, a full circle, a full circle that, uh, full circle in a, in a, in a, in an, in an, in an unusual way. When did you-- So you, you, you, y- the, the, the Shlichim brought you into their world.

30:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:36 Speaker 3 Um, their world was very alive and very intriguing, compelling. Um, at some point though, you must have realized that you couldn't have it both ways, like staying in Australia with your parents, the comforts of home, the comforts of what you know, and having these guys kind of spice life up. Um, at some point, you ei- you make a choice. Either you continue on the Australian way and go to uni- Right? Or you, I don't know, I guess go to 770, right? There must've been a point where you realized that's the fork in the road.

31:12 Speaker 1 Actually, there was, and an extreme fork.

31:15 Speaker 3 Okay.

31:15 Speaker 1 Um, but, but interesting story looking back, uh, you know, I don't know what I would advise my own child at the time, but I got it into my head that I don't want to finish high school. I'm not going on to university, I'm gonna be a shliach. And so what do I need this for? And also in my, as a teen, teen of 16, 17, um, I want to, I wanted to cloister myself a little bit from the temptations of, of the world, which were pulling like every, every teen, you know, very strongly, and what do I need this for? And so I decided I'm not finishing high school. Now, this actually created a scandal in the city. Um, my father was deeply upset, and rightfully so. He said, "I'm not asking you to go to university. You went this far, finish, and then you go to Yeshivat Gedola, and go on." And I'm adamant. The end was I wasn't allowed in the house, I was literally told, and I wasn't allowed in Yeshivat Gedola because they wouldn't accept me without my father's permission.

32:18 Speaker 3 He must've been also a supporter at that time.

32:20 Speaker 1 Pardon?

32:20 Speaker 3 He must've been a supporter of the yeshiva.

32:22 Speaker 1 Of course. A supporter, my father's the number one supporter then of Lubavitch, Yeshivat-

32:27 Speaker 3 Okay

32:27 Speaker 1 ... Yeshivat Gedola. His whole life is yeshiva. This is by the way Yeshivat Gedola.

32:37 Speaker 3 Okay. So wait, one second. Let's just clarify that point. I didn't, I didn't know if you wanted to bring it up, but I mean, your father, for those who don't know, was, was for many, many years the patron of-

32:47 Speaker 1 Yes, my, my father raised-

32:48 Speaker 3 A large community in Melbourne.

32:48 Speaker 1 So if I'm-

32:49 Speaker 3 He's a very successful businessman, and-

32:51 Speaker 1 That's right. He-

32:51 Speaker 3 Right

32:52 Speaker 1 ... my father was, every Sunday was never home. At least twice a week he was out collecting, as he called it, raising money for Yeshiva with Rabbi Menachem Mendel Goroditch.

32:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:59 Speaker 1 My father was never home.

33:00 Speaker 3 I remember-

33:00 Speaker 1 Either-

33:00 Speaker 3 ... Rabbi Menachem Mendel

33:01 Speaker 1 ... either it's a meeting, a shiur, or collecting.

33:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, no, but I, I just wanna clarify-

33:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

33:05 Speaker 3 ... 'cause it's important to the story. Your father wasn't just a asking. Your father was a successful businessman.

33:10 Speaker 1 Successful businessman.

33:10 Speaker 3 So for the, for the yeshiva to take in his son that he wasn't happy with was not gonna happen.

33:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. And this is, it's a separate moser, Yeshivat Gedola, but it's, it's, it's part of this umbrella.

33:19 Speaker 3 Right.

33:20 Speaker 1 Of course not. So for whatever it is, for days, I'm in the dormitory, and I'm, I, I still have the tapes. I tape the shiurim. Anyway, the situation was untenable, so my father-

33:31 Speaker 3 So you were homeless?

33:33 Speaker 1 Basically. I wasn't home, and I wasn't in yeshiva formally. So this went on for a few days, maybe a little longer, uh, and my father saw I'm, I'm holding my ground. I got in my head, that's it. I'm not doing this. I'm just not wasting this year. I'm not exposing myself anymore to all of these-

33:52 Speaker 3 Oh, it was the last year

33:53 Speaker 1 ... temptations. It was the last year for high sc- the high school diploma. It's one year to go, and that's it.

33:57 Speaker 3 Right.

33:59 Speaker 1 My father agreed in the end that Rabbi Groner was negotiating all of this to ask the Rebbe. And so they did, and we g- I get a phone call, my father from Rabbi Groner. There's an answer, and we come to his office, and Rabbi Groner sa- tells us, shares with us the Rebbe said that if my father agrees, then the Rebbe gives us a s'kum.

34:21 Speaker 3 To go to yeshiva?

34:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. To, to quit high sc- to quit school and go to Yeshivat Gedola f- yeshiva full-time. My father saw, realized what the Rebbe is saying, you know, and so he's gave his berakh, and that was the end of it. So yeah, it was a, a radical at some point here or there, and that's it. I'm all in, and I'm not going further with this.

34:42 Speaker 3 Was your grandfather at all involved in this process?

34:44 Speaker 1 And that's the interesting thing, completely in the background. Not encouraging me, certainly not criticizing me, and no congratulations when it was over.

34:54 Speaker 3 Hmm.

34:56 Speaker 1 I didn't expect it. Looking back now, perhaps it's strange, but he didn't mix, you know, he left it to my parents. He, he was also respectful for my parents, the hinhokh that they were giving us. I mean, as a kid, I, I, I had battles, Chris, ridiculous battles. I didn't wanna wear-- I only wanted to wear woolen tzitzit from the age of 13 or 14 or 15. That was a war.

35:16 Speaker 3 Right.

35:17 Speaker 1 I didn't wanna wear short pants anymore. That was a war. It was crazy. My parents regretted it afterwards. You know, let the kid what he wants, let him. But, uh, well-meaning, well-meaning, you know?

35:28 Speaker 3 What, what do you think, what do you think was holding them back? Like, do you think they felt that, that, like, it's time to move on from these, like, old school?

35:38 Speaker 1 No, no, no. It's, it, it's, it's more like it's time later. You're a kid, so-

35:42 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

35:43 Speaker 1 ... you're a kid. Kids wear short pants, you know? Kids, uh-

35:46 Speaker 3 Right

35:47 Speaker 1 ... it's hot outside. Now, mother, it's very hot. The Australian summers are hot. You know, cotton tzitzit.

35:51 Speaker 3 Right.

35:52 Speaker 1 They regret it. They regret it. But it was-- They, they were wars.

35:56 Speaker 3 Right. You're also, you're the oldest in your family, right?

35:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, the oldest boy. After that, you know, it was-

36:01 Speaker 3 Yeah

36:01 Speaker 1 ... a few younger brothers, it was a different story.

36:03 Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm also the oldest. The oldest always has these fights.

36:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:06 Speaker 3 So, so you, so you realize that there's a... A- and how, how many years after you make this, you choose this path, you end up in 770? It's not-

36:15 Speaker 1 It's really, it's around 15, and at, and at eight, nine, eight, four years later, I'm in 770. Uh-

36:20 Speaker 3 Okay. So you had a few years-

36:21 Speaker 1 Eighteen, 19. Yeah

36:22 Speaker 3 ... you had a few years in yeshiva.

36:23 Speaker 1 Yeah, two years in Yeshivat Gedola. I went at 17. So 15, I'm making this decision already. I'm on that trajectory. And at 17, I'm in Yeshivat Gedola for two years.

36:32 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

36:32 Speaker 1 And then at 19, not 770. In those days, didn't work that way. I went to yeshiva, to Yeshivat Gedola of, of Greater Miami, Rabbi Levi Shapiro.

36:42 Speaker 3 Oh, really?

36:42 Speaker 1 They research-

36:43 Speaker 3 You came to America, and you didn't go to New York?

36:46 Speaker 1 Tishrei, and then-

36:47 Speaker 3 Hmm

36:47 Speaker 1 ... which was a big, a big berakhah for me. It was a big berakhah because I became part of the kvutza that were there. I, I became inseparable and close friends till today with that kvutza that was there, the shluchim, the shluchim that were there in Yeshivat Gedola in, in, in Miami those days.

37:02 Speaker 3 You were there as a shliach? No?

37:03 Speaker 1 No, I came as a bachur from Australia, but became my havrutas and my close friends are the Yeminizter.

37:08 Speaker 3 Hmm.

37:09 Speaker 1 In fact, there was a point in Miami where I wrote to the rabbi that I didn't feel I was using my time properly. Maybe it's time to come to 770, semikhah, get married, and move on. The rabbi said I should be mamshich in Miami. Kedai lamshich be Miami, and that also saved me because I would've come to 770 kinda lost. You know? I came with this kvutzah, and I was part of them, and as I said, till today, we're still, you know, close friends.

37:34 Speaker 3 You could've gone to Altere. There was a yeshiva in Carnets, no?

37:36 Speaker 1 Nobody in those days went to Altere from Australia. Only one was Chaim Zvi Groner that had gone earlier as a younger bocher. It wasn't the trend. It started after my day.

37:45 Speaker 3 Are you saying from Australia people didn't go to-

37:46 Speaker 1 Nobody went.

37:47 Speaker 3 Why not? Because-

37:49 Speaker 1 I don't-

37:49 Speaker 3 ... it felt too, too big?

37:50 Speaker 1 I have no idea. Nobody... Bachurim guys didn't go.

37:54 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

37:55 Speaker 1 When they, they went at my age, old already, 19, 18, 19, so they're not going to Altere then already.

38:01 Speaker 3 Right.

38:01 Speaker 1 And I was one of the very few that went.

38:03 Speaker 3 I mean, 'cause again, that's, that's so interesting to me, um, because, you know, it c- in the, in the Chabad mythology, and I don't think this was created intentionally, but it just, just kind of, it's there, uh, at least how I always has understood it. It's like in those days, you know, the Rebbe was in 770, and there w- like that was it. Like, like the whole scene was Alter- was 770 bochurim, Alter Rebbe bochurim. Like, like the idea of being a bocher coming all the way to America and going to Miami, like, it's like why would you do that? I mean, of course, there are many rational reasons, you know, like you just laid out. First of all, like you'd, you'd get lost in, in, in, in the churn and, and, you know, and, and, uh, whatever you wanna describe the scene in, in 770.

38:54 Speaker 1 Those days the world was not like it is today. I have no idea what was happening in America. None.

38:59 Speaker 3 Right.

38:59 Speaker 1 Not, not what Miami looks like, not what Altere looks like. If I even heard of Altere, perhaps.

39:03 Speaker 3 Yeah, but you're coming to, you're coming to-

39:04 Speaker 1 I was saying-

39:05 Speaker 3 ... by the Rebbe, right?

39:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. I'm going, yeah, I'm going now to America, and I'm going to the, the goal is 770 ultimately.

39:12 Speaker 3 Oh, okay.

39:13 Speaker 1 And, uh, Rabbi Cohen, rosh yeshiva in Melbourne, he said he did his research. Trusted him. It wasn't a discussion. Miami, gamar nu.

39:21 Speaker 3 Right. So, so there was-- I, what I'm, what I'm trying to get to is there was a place for the individual back then as well, right? The idea of, you know, let me put it this way. There are stories that I've heard, um, whether it was, uh, Label Raskin's kids or Gershon Mendel Gorelik's kids, you know, how their father basically when they were bar mitzvah, their father dropped them off in 770. "Here's a bench to sleep on. Bye bye."

39:50 Speaker 1 Well, yeah.

39:50 Speaker 3 Right? I'm saying there, there's that kind of mythology, right? Um-

39:54 Speaker 1 Which is true for them.

39:55 Speaker 3 Right. But I've always, personally, I've always kind of understood that that, that was just a general environment-

40:02 Speaker 1 No

40:02 Speaker 3 ... going on then where, you know, basically there's, there's a Rebbe, there's, that's the whole scene, then everybody just kinda got lost in it. And what you're describing is, I mean, it ha- probably has a little bit to do with the kind of person Rabbi Cohen is. He's a, he's a very down-to-earth, rational man, um, who, who never got carried away with this kind of stuff, right? But it, you know, the way you're describing it is that there was still a space for here's a young boy, or at the, at 19 you're not young, but you're, you're Australian. You're, you're new to this whole thing. If he goes to 770, he's going to be by farbrengens a lot, but he might not be by anything else.

40:41 Speaker 1 That's right.

40:42 Speaker 3 Okay. To me, to me that's interesting.

40:43 Speaker 1 He felt that he needed a smaller, more structured and close, I, I guess, closer to Australia kind of environment. Miami, not 770, you know?

40:52 Speaker 3 And you weren't upset that you're so close geog- geographically, but you're missing out on farbrengens by Kislev and Teves or whatever the-

41:00 Speaker 1 We used to go in. We went in. Tisha B'Av was there. We would go in, though. No. I was very grateful to be there.

41:05 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

41:06 Speaker 1 No, there was never that thought. I felt I needed to kind of own my, my place there in 770. 770, it was older bochurim, and it was at least for my, at my, during my time, and I had to work my way up there.

41:20 Speaker 3 So where do you think this... I mean, may- maybe I'm wrong about the way I understand how things were, but that was just always the way I, I, I, I, I, I kind of received it from the way people spoke about it. Where do you think this... First of all, do you think that there is a mythology about those times being that, like, e- everything revolved around the Rebbe and everything revolved around 770 and, like, there being this, like being on shlichus in Florida was like almost like you're sent to Florida to do the Rebbe's shlichas, but it's not a place you wanna be. You wanna be back in 770, right? And here you're describing where not only were you happy to be there then, you're happy even in retrospect that you were there.

42:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:00 Speaker 3 Right? So w- first of all, do you, do you feel as well that there's a mythology about everything being a- around 770 back then? And if you, and if you do, where do you think that came from?

42:14 Speaker 1 I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Just practically, the practicality is after my day, like my younger brother, Ruvi. So that generation, they went younger. They went to Altere, and they went on then shlichas, and then 770. That was the seder. This didn't exist in my day. I, I-- There's a handful of boys that went. I was from the younger guys that... The Australians before me that went were older. They'd finished high school.

42:40 Speaker 3 Sure.

42:41 Speaker 1 They were two years in Yeshivat Gedola or three sometimes. They went straight to 770. I was just simply younger. They were in their 20s, 21, 22. And so, but yes, 770, it's for all the bochurim. It wasn't a lot of thought.

42:54 Speaker 3 So what do you think happened between you and your brother, Ruvi? Like-

42:58 Speaker 1 What happened is in the, in Australia, Altere started, so people, uh, finished school at a younger age, and the Kollel-- though he didn't go to Kollel Yoyrim. But, but, uh, they started going To set to New York earlier. One year YG, not two years. That's a huge difference. My day, you didn't go before two years.

43:19 Speaker 3 But if anything, if you're going younger, then you, you need to be Miami more than-

43:23 Speaker 1 No. So Ohel Torah, Ohel Torah became... I don't know what happened. I, I can't tell you. It's got a name.

43:28 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

43:28 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't know.

43:29 Speaker 3 Look-

43:30 Speaker 1 I am not even sure I even heard of Ohel Torah when I was in Australia

43:33 Speaker 3 I, I was... 'Cause I mean, Ohel Torah certainly was there. Oh, in some form-

43:36 Speaker 1 Of course

43:36 Speaker 3 ... or another, there was a yeshiva there. That's where the locals went. I, I'm just-- Like, to me, there's something so interesting about there, there-- It seems like there was a transition at some point. I, I've a- I've always tried to pinpoint where-

43:48 Speaker 1 When that happens.

43:49 Speaker 3 Like did-

43:49 Speaker 1 You know, my brother Ruvi would probably be able to tell you.

43:51 Speaker 3 Right.

43:51 Speaker 1 'Cause he's part of that generation-

43:53 Speaker 3 Fair enough

43:53 Speaker 1 ... that went to Ohel Torah.

43:54 Speaker 3 Fair enough. Fair enough.

43:55 Speaker 1 That's 10 years after me.

43:57 Speaker 3 Oh, he's 10 years younger than you.

43:58 Speaker 1 It's 10 years later.

43:59 Speaker 3 And you're the brothers in between?

44:00 Speaker 1 Two brothers, Yosl and Shliach, Het Shliach to Canada.

44:04 Speaker 3 I know. Yeah, sure.

44:04 Speaker 1 And Chaim, olive Hashem-

44:06 Speaker 3 I know

44:06 Speaker 1 ... that you remember well.

44:07 Speaker 3 Of course. Of course. So they also went to Ohel Torah or they were-

44:11 Speaker 1 No

44:11 Speaker 3 ... they were with, like, you?

44:13 Speaker 1 Yosl had a different journey.

44:14 Speaker 3 When you're-

44:14 Speaker 1 I'm sorry. I shouldn't touch it.

44:15 Speaker 3 No, no. You're on the table. No, this thing is making noise. I don't want-

44:17 Speaker 1 Yes, I shouldn't touch it.

44:18 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:18 Speaker 1 Sorry.

44:19 Speaker 3 No problem.

44:19 Speaker 1 No, my brother Yosl went to, uh, to Mizrachi Yeshiva. Uh, that was his journey. He, he made a different journey altogether.

44:26 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. So next time I'm in Atlanta-

44:27 Speaker 1 You've gotta-- His story is incredible.

44:30 Speaker 3 And I have a brother that lives in Atlanta. I can-

44:32 Speaker 1 Okay, you got a good reason to go.

44:33 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:33 Speaker 1 Sit him down for a few hours. Yeah.

44:35 Speaker 3 He went to Yavne?

44:36 Speaker 1 He went to Itri.

44:38 Speaker 3 In Australia?

44:39 Speaker 1 In... No, no.

44:40 Speaker 3 A Mizrachi yeshiva outside Australia?

44:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, he left after high school. He went... I th- He didn't even go to YG, I don't think. He went straight to Israel to-

44:49 Speaker 3 Mizrachi Yeshiva

44:49 Speaker 1 ... to Mizrachi Yeshivas. It-- Kerem Yavne and then Itri, and from there, or the other way around.

44:55 Speaker 3 And so for a while you thought that he was gonna end up with a kippah sruga or something.

44:59 Speaker 1 He had a kippah sruga, and he'd never beard.

45:01 Speaker 3 Hmm.

45:01 Speaker 1 And that's where he was. And it's one of the happiest moments in my life, aside from my marriage and children, is getting a letter from him or tape, "I'm going to Chabad. Teretzemes, Teretzemes."

45:14 Speaker 3 Hmm.

45:15 Speaker 1 "I'm leaving, going, coming back." Yeah, he'll tell you his story. It's incredible.

45:18 Speaker 3 What a story. Yeah. So I mean, do you think, do you think at all that there was some kind of shift? I mean, I don't think it happened overnight at any point, but do you think over time there was a shift where... You know, it, it does seem like, like there was a time where, whether it was the lameds, if you wanted to define it by decades. But there was a time where there was still like, "Here's-- The rebbe's here. You go to yeshiva there. The bachurim going to Montreal. Bachurim going to," like you said, "Florida." There wasn't that whole, like, the-- The rebbe also wasn't farbrengen every week, right? Like, it wasn't revolving intensely or, or on a, on the daily level around the rebbe's go- comings and goings, right? Like you, like you said, you went for Tishrei, maybe you went in for your Shvat or your Kislev, uh, something like that. But you were content to go to America and not be in 770 on the regular. And then at some point, it's ver- it's very clear to me that at some point, being a Lubavitcher bachur meant being in the rebbe's goings-

46:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. Of course

46:29 Speaker 3 ... and comings on the daily, on the daily.

46:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. The-

46:30 Speaker 3 That was what it was

46:31 Speaker 1 ... and then I would say the mems, that's when it changed. Look, before that, Crown Heights boys came to Montreal, left-

46:38 Speaker 3 Right

46:38 Speaker 1 ... Crown Heights, and Leibel Kaplan-

46:41 Speaker 3 Right

46:41 Speaker 1 ... learned in Montreal as a bachur.

46:43 Speaker 3 He's from Crown Heights.

46:44 Speaker 1 Sure. Originally, you think. Not originally, but his formative years.

46:48 Speaker 3 Right. So, so what do you think happened?

46:53 Speaker 1 Why, why did that change? Hmm. It's a good question. I need to think about it. Uh. You know, this leads us to, I guess, the core issue, what Lubavitch is today, you know.

47:12 Speaker 3 Right.

47:12 Speaker 1 I think that's where you're going, I guess. Um, th- there's no question the centrality of the rebbe, uh, definitely has grown. The centrality, the, of his role, not be'etzem, but in just in terms of our appreciation, and there's no question of that. And that's a generational thing.

47:33 Speaker 3 Right.

47:33 Speaker 1 It's a generational thing. If you go back to the earlier generations, the rebbe was the rebbe, but you know, Hasidim were Hasidim, and there were tziyyurim, and there was a whole-- it was a complex, multi-layered world, Lubavitch. And as time progresses, it became much more, you know, rebbe gamaru. And the Hasid, the definition of the Hasid or the her- her- the hero was measured by one thing only, the level of bitul and his kashrus-

48:00 Speaker 3 Right

48:00 Speaker 1 ... as opposed to the Rashashi and earlier generations, his avoda and his bitul. Whatever other, you know, qualities, his, uh, haskolah and avoda. Yeah. Now, why that happened, I can share with you why I think this happened-

48:14 Speaker 3 Sure

48:14 Speaker 1 ... and why it's, why it is a good thing. And why-- Well, we'll just spill it on the table or try and un- and unpack it a little bit.

48:26 Speaker 3 Go for it.

48:27 Speaker 1 Um, w- what has emerged over the generations and, and ever deeper is this. The big chidush of the Alter Rebbe, of course, is dirah b'tachtonim, that turned things on its head. You know, heaven serves earth, not the other way around. It's all about here. That's a tremendous revolution. That's developed by older rebbe with greater nuance, depth, complexity. Samach vav, ayin beis. The kavana is davka the tachtonim. The yesh ha- nivra is expressive of the yesh ha-miti. G'luyim versus etzem, and this is a whole new language, and that the essence lies davka where there's no revelation, just being. I am. That's a huge chidush. Dirah b'tachtonim. Without going-- There's not a shiur now. I wanna give us, give, uh, or to m- or to, uh, pontificate, but just, uh, the truth is it needs ma'ad makomis. Where does it say this? You know. But-

49:32 Speaker 3 Well, you, what you said-

49:32 Speaker 1 What I'm about to say. So far, yes. So far it's pretty clear.

49:35 Speaker 3 So far it's possibly Gani one-on-one.

49:37 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's, it's pretty basic. You know, it's, uh, uh, particularly L'maveh Tanya, it's, it's basic. Yeshav haKadosh Baruch Hu, the kavana is dirah b'tachtonim. The Rebbe's chidush in that is that the kavana is not the tachtonim per se. The Alter Rebbe in Tanya actually says, "Haneshama atzma eino tzricha tikkun v'lo ma'aya d'lamata." Why did I come down? "Anash lichos." L'saken es haguf hachelk b'olam, and part of the whole mission of, of dirah b'tachtonim. So this is already in Samach Vav. It, it's said elsewhere, and it's, um, once the Rebbe says it, there's a thousand Maramoke and you see it everywhere, like everything. So this turns a light on them. It was always there, but-

50:19 Speaker 3 Right

50:19 Speaker 1 ... but to lay bare the Rebbe's Chiddush in maymer after maymer, it's not about the tachton, it's about you. It's about neshamas Yisroel.

50:29 Speaker 3 Mm.

50:29 Speaker 1 And the Aibishter wants to have the deepest essential connection-

50:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

50:34 Speaker 1 ... express itself in the tachton, engage the tachton, and illuminate the tachton. And to put it in simple language, what's the point of a home? To live there with your soulmate. That's the point of the home. The saddest place in the world is a home where there was once a family and there's no longer. And a home, all the details of the home, as opposed to a building, what makes it a home is davka, the pichkes and the details that are expressive of the people that live there. So Didan B'tachtonim Rebbe explains is what's the kavana that the ta- the world in all of its detail, humanity, everything, should express this essential oneness, soulmates, Aibishter and Yidden. And who are those soulmates? Every Yid and the Aibishter. So it's all about neshamas.

51:23 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

51:24 Speaker 1 It's all about the Rebbe saying more and ever clearer, etzem haneshama, we're all one with each other and one with God, and that that truth, all Jews are one, all Jews are one with God, that the world glitter and express that. Now, we can talk about the matzav today. I feel it's, that's what it's, the world is screaming, you know. In this most contorted, terrible way, that's what's happening right now, and the Jews are compelled to, to confront their own Jewishness in a way they never had to before or they deluded themselves before. Right now, in these last few weeks, since the terrible tragedy. All to say, what is a Rebbe? This is exactly what a Rebbe. A Rebbe is neshamah klalis. He is at once klal Yisroel, at once Rebbe Yisroel. He, he possibly embodies that truth. We are all one. We are individuals, but at the same time, we are everyone, and everyone is expressed in the individual. Hence, I'm saying, the closer to Biras HaMashiach, the more Rebbe, the more this fundamentally central unity of who we are, and it's all about neshamah. It's all about the revelation of the neshamah. And, and that's why Rebbe. In other words, to ask a question, we all understand why we need Chassidus as a acharonah for Biras HaMashiach. It's a foretaste of more light of Dias Hashem. But why, why must it come through a Rebbe? Ha'avodrochim lama kom. The Zohar was discovered, learned. People could, can explain it, people learned it and highly

53:00 Speaker 1 intelligent. Why, why Baal Shem Tov and the Rebbe? And as we pointed out as the generations went on, especially our Rebbe, the great shift, it becomes like Anasi Hacohel so Rebbe-centered because, in fact, the kavana is the neshamah.

53:15 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

53:15 Speaker 1 Torah is there to reveal the neshamah, not the other way around. And that's what, that's what the Rebbe is, and that's what we're seeing is incredible situation today. It's so many years after Gimel Tammuz. The fascination with the Rebbe is only increasing. It's on- with Chabad. Yesterday, we had here the whole Beis girls high school and seminary and their teachers. They came for a Yom Tefillah, Lo Yida Matev Ner Tisro, and they wanted to take the kids out somewhere, make it exciting. Could they come here? A pleasure. And I spoke, and, and I spoke Chassidus, neshamah. It, it just the, the thirst and the, how it resonates, the deepest teachings of Chassidus, which is this I'm saying, that you are everything, and it's all about you, and we are all one, and therefore, and a hundred million therefores, um, the world is seeking this now. The world's pashet. To use Derash language, the world's looking for the Rebbe. They're looking. They're looking for this truth. They're looking for and sensing this deep Jewish neshamah truth that we are all one. We are all one. And that's what the Rebbe embodied. Plus, of course, as time goes on, the cl- the clarity of the Rebbe's leadership, how everything the Rebbe said, had we followed, it would not be where we are, but no crying over spilled milk. But just going forward, his answers and message to klal, to the prat is, gem is becoming wildly popular more and more with each passing day. Who would've imagined?

54:52 Speaker 1 It's after, so many years after Gimel Tammuz, and he's not fading. He's just getting stronger. So what I'm saying, and I'm, and I'm going on and on.

55:00 Speaker 3 No, no, please.

55:00 Speaker 1 It's not just, it's not just the message. Aside, the message pashet is Torah, is just so clear and beautiful and unifies all of Torah and all comes together. It's just so deep. But aside from the message, politically at Yisroel, you know, the prophet spoke. It's true. You can see it. Aside from that, I'm saying the fascination is the closer to Biras HaMashiach, where the kavana, the yoni of neshamas Yisroel all being one, Anasi Hacohel, it's just palpable. It's just what we, what we feel and what we need. Just if we can elaborate a little bit further, I told this to the kids yesterday. Actually, not kids, the g- girls in seminary. You know, for a long time, up until Chassidus really, the whole motivation for doing mitzvahs was charva inish.

55:50 Speaker 3 Right.

55:50 Speaker 1 That's, that's the whole thing. Charva inish. Today, nobody cares. I'll deal with it when I get there, if there is or if there isn't. It's not, it doesn't talk. Sorry, it doesn't talk anymore and should not. What talks today? The Aibishter nis aveh God needs you. God needs? How could God possibly need? Explain Chassidus because he's beyond perfect and chooses to become vulnerable and need. And his need is you.

56:19 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

56:19 Speaker 1 You are his desire. He wants to be a part of you. Mitzvahs are not, if you do this, you get rewarded. If you don't, you're gonna burn in hell. Mitzvahs at their core are the Aish HaShalem saying, "Please, I want to be a part of your life. I want to be a part of the way you eat." Here's kosher. "I want to be a part of the way you, you, you live married." Here's mikvah. It's God's desire, craving. Desire is too strong. It's avim. It's craving. All I want is you.

56:44 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

56:44 Speaker 1 And it's something I'm saying a lot to you, at least allow me to share this here. It's based on Basile Gani.

56:48 Speaker 3 I'm not flying back till tomorrow morning. I got all night.

56:51 Speaker 1 Okay. So we're carrying on a little bit. Um, right, I feel this is such an important thing, an important teaching. You mentioned Basile Gani, so everybody knows there, the whole point there is the Ptachtonym and the Mishkan is the prototype and the Shtus the Kedusha. One element of that, the Atzei Shitim is, where you take the boards, the, the, the, uh, Atzei, uh, the Krosim, and explains the, what's the meaning of the Keresh. We take the sheker of the world, the lie of the world, and becomes, becomes the, the Keresh-

57:28 Speaker 3 Right

57:28 Speaker 1 ... which then becomes the Kesher.

57:29 Speaker 3 Yeah.

57:30 Speaker 1 Simple question, which the Maimed doesn't really address, but it's obvious. How do you transform a lie? You illuminate it. You, you do away with it. You illuminate it. A lie is a lie. Shtus the clip of craziness, you can channel. You can't channel a lie. What does it mean to transform a lie? I believe, certain, that the, the meaning of it is this. What's, what's the big lie? There's only one lie from which, which spawns every other lie. That's we feel independent from Hashem. We feel our matzahs, our ego. We don't feel the truth that He's constantly creating in someone and so forth. And from ego, abuse to its extreme forms then follows. It just-

58:10 Speaker 3 Sure.

58:11 Speaker 1 As the famous philosopher René Descartes said, "I think therefore I am." It's the truest statement, the only true statement that a human being can make, actually. He tried to come up with a statement that's irrefutable and absolutely true. I think I know therefore I am. I could be imagining you. I could be imagining all of existence. Can't prove it. I just know that there's consciousness. Could it be imagining my body? But I, there's a thinker here.

58:36 Speaker 3 Right.

58:36 Speaker 1 I think there when... I often think I would have asked him, "Maybe you're a figment in somebody else's imagination that gives you the sense that I, that I am."

58:43 Speaker 3 We've come to that already. People, Descartes has been upended.

58:47 Speaker 1 Upended, okay. But, uh, yeah, in the-

58:49 Speaker 3 In the world we live in today, we're not certain even of ourselves.

58:51 Speaker 1 Even of, even that I think that I am. But Chassidus says, "You're right." Now, the question is, why did God make us so selfish? Right? Why is it, why is it that, that all I know is me? A baby's cute, but selfish, and we never escape that, "Could I feel what you feel?"

59:07 Speaker 3 Right.

59:07 Speaker 1 I mean, it's a terrible thing if you think about it. I cannot feel what somebody else is feeling. Because we're both human, and I look, and I see, and I, I, you know, I can approximate, and maybe I do, maybe I don't, but I'm stuck in me. It's all I really know is me.

59:20 Speaker 3 Yeah, we're trapped.

59:21 Speaker 1 We're trapped. Why? That's big sheker, and that's to be transformed, not done away with. You know why? 'Cause it is only you. You are everything for the Aish HaShalem. There's nothing else. Look at another person, same thing's true of him, and him, and her, and her. Everybody's everything? Yeah, if you're a parent, that knows that. You can have 15 kids, and your love doesn't get sliced up. You, you ask any parents, "How are you doing?" As good as the challenge for your most difficult kid. That, that's how you're doing. You love them all with all your heart. That's a human parent. And for the Aish HaShalem, everybody's everything. That's the Rebbe's teaching. You are... That's taking the sheker, transforming it. The sheker is all I know is me. Yep. Yeah. Because you, that's true.

1:00:06 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:06 Speaker 1 Don't do, don't, don't destroy that. Just transform it. You're ye-ye, you're the Yesha HaLivrah. The reason you, I feel I am that I am, 'cause the true I am that I am is invested in you. That's why you feel that. It's a corruption of that. It's all, just tweak it, just tweak it. Be stuck everything. One proviso. So is he, and so is she. Everybody's everything.

1:00:29 Speaker 3 Well, I mean, uh, what does the Gemara say? That sheker is, uh, every sheker has a little bit of truth. So, and, and the letters of sheker are, uh, they're wobbly. So every lie is essentially just a truth without legs.

1:00:42 Speaker 1 Exactly. Exactly.

1:00:42 Speaker 3 And, uh, what you're saying is that you have to find the legs, and then it becomes, becomes a truth. Um, now-

1:00:50 Speaker 1 I'm gonna, I'm gonna share with you something very beautiful that I heard from Meshliach. Very beautiful. This is, uh, this is Barry Farkash, Meshliach in Issaquah, uh, Washington State. I have two children, Meshlichas there, so I was there last summer. It was a Friday afternoon. Went to order the mikvah, and I heard he has a beautiful mikvah, which he built. He had a sister that passed away in Jerusalem, and he-

1:01:16 Speaker 3 Okay

1:01:16 Speaker 1 ... built a mikvah, a gorgeous little mikvah. He's on a gorgeous... Issaquah is stunning. It's in the hills, mountains. It, it was just, uh, uh, poetic and romantic, the whole scene, sitting on his balcony Friday afternoon, nestled literally in the mountains. Anyway, he w- I know him from here because he married a Montreal girl, and he spent the summer here in MTC, voluntarily teaching in Fabrengen. A little mashke, it's from Fresh Steve. Baked kugel with his wife. It just made, she brought out a, a tray of kugel.

1:01:48 Speaker 3 The Yishamael dies hard.

1:01:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. He's become a psychologist, a therapist. He says to me like this: "Why do you think the Rebbe stood hours and hours every Sunday giving out dollars?" Obviously, brochas to people and all that. It's obvious. The Rebbe is saying, "Bring me another Yid. I want to look him or her in the eye and tell them, 'You are everything.'" That's the Rebbe's message. And that's one answer. The original question, the Rebbe, Rebbe, yeah. It's another way of saying neshamas, neshamas, neshamas Yisroel. Yeah. That's the whole thing.

1:02:39 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I, I hear, I, I, I definitely hear what you're saying, and, you know, talking about wobbly truths, I, I personally, I wobble with these things. Um, I used to feel that because I wobble means that the thing itself is wobbly, and, um, I don't think it's, I don't think it's that I've become more humble. I think I've just become older and realized that, you know, sometimes it's me, it's not the thing. And, um, you know, r- I tell people that I, I'm a recovering cynic. So part of recovering from cynicism is realizing that, um, sometimes s-something can be true without you identifying with it. You don't have to pull it down with you, right? So that's, that's a long way of saying I, I, I accept what, I accept the point you made. Um, and, and the... 'cause we asked a question earlier about why did, why was it this transition in Lubavitch, and you gave a, you gave an answer that i- as if I, if I understand correctly, in short, was that this is a trend of, um, as you come closer to, to Beis Hamashiach, there's an idea of, um, I, I guess if I could re-rephrase it, Yiddishkeit becoming more about the relationship and about, um, about the, the person, uh, you know, who are you and what, what are, how are, how you are needed and, and feeling that need, and feeling that you're needed, um, that's become more and more central. And yeah, I mean, I,

1:04:12 Speaker 3 there's nothing I can say to argue with that. You know, i-i-in general, that goes with the whole idea of, of chassidus as a foretaste of Mashiach, where I think one of the reasons is to bring out the, the beauty. One, one is to give a taste of Mashiach, and one is to make Yidden feel more impor- uh, more, more valuable, right? To, to uplift them and make them connected. So there's nothing I can say to argue with it, th- uh, nor do I n-n-want to argue with it. But there are two things that I'm thinking about. One thing is that as, as true as that may be, there's still the fact, uh, I think, and I asked this also to Yossi Neimans, a similar question. There's still the fact that before that, we understood that the individual needs to be catered to, right? And so in your case, that meant going to Miami Yeshiv as opposed to, let's say, Alterah, right? So as true as what you're saying is, what happened to that other truth, right? If, if we all get swept up in, in, in the Rebbe wave, let's say, and, you know, the, basically just this wave, this wave, this ti- the tide lifts up all ships, what happens to the, the need and the truth that an individual has his own particularities, and i-if we get swept away, we, we also lose ourselves, right?

1:05:34 Speaker 1 Right.

1:05:34 Speaker 3 And, and as much as a wave lifts all ships, it al- a, a big wave can also drown people.

1:05:39 Speaker 1 Right.

1:05:40 Speaker 3 Right? So that's question number one. And, um, question number two is, is w- you know, we're... I mean, let's f- let's do one question at a time.

1:05:54 Speaker 1 Okay. So you're 100% right. Um, not only is, is your question what happened to it, if it's not going to empower the individual, then it's, that's not, then this is not, this is not it. The whole point is all neshamas are one doesn't mean uniformity. "Ve'ata tetzave," the main which the Rebbe gave out, it turns out before the stroke, before Gimel Tammuz. What, what's the nekuda of "Ve'ata tetzave"? The nekuda of it all is one thing. The etzem, we're all one, but it translates in, in the individuality, in mendushe and protim that are very different, but all threaded with the etzem. But it must manifest in the individuality, that the etzem is brought to bear on the kochos hageduluyim, on the manifested conscious kochos. That's the tachlis. Not to surrender the kochos hageduluyim to the etzem, but that the etzem, and davka the etzem, kochos makifim will overwhelm the, the consc- conscious faculties. The etzem doesn't overwhelm because it's the essence. So when it's brought to bear, it empowers the, and brings to life all of the, the, the, the manifested faculties, intellect, emotion, and uniqueness of each person. So adaraba, if we're talking neshama, and which we are, Mashiach neshama, that means davka the individual. Now, and I hope it's happening now a little bit. We lost it. We lost it. I don't know. I, I, I just... There's a n- To make put everybody in boxes and uniform and they're enough. We lost it. We lost it. And I think now it, it

1:07:34 Speaker 1 is starting to change.

1:07:35 Speaker 3 Why do you think we lost it? Is it, is it just too hard to have it both ways?

1:07:39 Speaker 1 Because I, I, I, I think people didn't understand how to, how to-

1:07:44 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:07:45 Speaker 1 I, I just... There's a lot of ignorance just in terms of educators, the people that are... Mm-hmm. Look, I, I'm not the one to, to... Tomchei Temimim is a, is a model that worked in Lubavitch. It, it is said 14, 15 hours a day, the whole seuda and the way they learned, and even then there was in, in a family, one bocher, the, the bright. It's not for everyone, and for some reason it became like this is one size fits all. It, it, it can't work. It can't work, and especially not in a world when there's so many other options. So the, the, the principles or the etzem doesn't change, but in terms of the way this has to be brought to our children today and so on, I, I think needs to be a lot of work has to still be done, and I think it is happening. It just, it's being compelled because we're just seeing that the kids are falling through the cracks, and they're just not relating to it. Uh, why should they? It doesn't talk to them. It must talk to them. Addition to all of that is the message, the Rebbe's message, which was not conveyed properly. When I was a kid growing up, a fabringer was beetle. Who you? Right. Who you? You know, that was the point was to strip someone. No, no, no. It's to empower. On the contrary, it's to empower. You're everything.

1:09:06 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:08 Speaker 1 You're everything. So how does it, the tachtit is, what happened to... This will illustrate the point. The famous, what's his name, though, uh, uh, Gavriel Tzinmer. Gavriel Tzinmer worked in the UN, he became a Lubavitcher, uh, translated the first Tanya into English, knew many languages, big correspondence with him. I think he started at Yasol. He was Satmar, and then became-

1:09:34 Speaker 3 Gavriel Tzinmer?

1:09:34 Speaker 1 Not, not, not... Oriel, Oriel Tzinmer, not Gavriel Tzinmer.

1:09:37 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:09:37 Speaker 1 Oriel Tzinmer. Oriel Tzinmer.

1:09:40 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:40 Speaker 1 So he relates, he was once in Yechidnes, he said to Rebbe, "It looks like the Rebbe, like he changed Lubavitch." The, the prototype of the Der Ashivi Hasid is nothing like the Der Ashishi.

1:09:49 Speaker 3 Really?

1:09:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. He, he's savvy. This is in the '70s already. He's savvy, he's very worldly, and the Der Ashishi Hasid was a Hasid davening for hours, menutah, cut off from the world, transcendent, and the batlan. Rebbe changed Lubavitch? That's what he said to Rebbe. He said, like, "You've changed the direction completely." And the Rebbe said to him, "After six generations of revealing the world per se is ein ve'efes, now we're ready to use it and make it a-"

1:10:18 Speaker 3 Cashing in.

1:10:19 Speaker 1 And using it and, and revealing godliness in it. When it's lost its own I am and it surrenders to I am because you want me to be, now, now, now it's ready. So yeah, there was the bittle, bittle, bittle, bittle, bisgarnished, but that's all a hachanah. What, what's the garnished these? The sh- the sheker part is garnished.

1:10:38 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:10:38 Speaker 1 But the truth that you are everything, that's, that, that's the whole point of it.

1:10:42 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:42 Speaker 1 And we're in a transition stage now. The Rebbe's message is still being, uh, it, it's still being, uh, understood and, and expressed, and I think the schools are picking it up. We've got great teachers like Manes and Yossi Jacobson or, uh, Simon Jacobson, I think they're doing a great job. We need more of these voices that champion the individual, the ad rab and the value. That's, it's not, this is not a, uh, like a sugar coating to draw the kids in. This is the truth.

1:11:10 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:11:11 Speaker 1 Your individuality. Our schools are so narrow. There has to be so much creativity, art, music. Why, why shouldn't this be part of the cur...? It is starting to be. Not every kid's a learner. They can express their Jewishness in so many other ways.

1:11:24 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:24 Speaker 1 It should be provided and encouraged, and it's legitimate.

1:11:27 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:28 Speaker 1 It's v'et ha'tetzavah. That the etzem and the shomer. I am a yid, I'm yours, and you're part of my life is in the individual components that make me uniquely me. If it's, and if it's surrendering that, if it's, if it's somehow blurring my individuality and it's conformity, conforming my, my personality, my talent, then that's the hipacha kavona legam. It's exactly the opposite of all. It's not about crushing.

1:11:55 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:11:55 Speaker 1 And I think it's happening. It's happening. Could, it, it's happened faster, but it's happening.

1:12:01 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I mean, to just to the f- to the actual, the guf ha'shleiniyin, you're, what you're reminding me is of a beautiful, um, rish- entry in the Reshimas that the Rebbe's Mazbir, the Ma- uh, the Mishnah of Atan Deftigo.

1:12:16 Speaker 1 Mincha, which we've got a while. We still got a half an hour at least.

1:12:18 Speaker 3 We still got a half hour. So there's a beautiful, beautiful Reshima, um, on the Mishnah of Machashim Suma Mal HaSamaru.

1:12:25 Speaker 1 Uh-huh. Yeah.

1:12:26 Speaker 3 Right? And so, uh, a, a needle that is tame and needs to be purified, so you have to bring the water over, right? You have to, you have to, you have to have the wave. We're talking about the wave earlier, right? And kivush rabar leggal tairah, you bring over the, the gal of tairah and bittle over the o- over the needle, it purifies it. But then the problem is the needle can drown, right? So there's two points. First it has to be a mal haSamaru. It has to be on the step. You can't, if, if you lose the needle in the water, there's no point. Yatzus harbef seide. And then what the Rebbe also adds is that it's a machat. A machat pricks. It, it has an identity. A machat, a machat's not a harmless instrument. It can hurt. And the Rebbe connects it to the shishi- um, what, the, the one-sixtieth of, of gaivah, the shmin- shmin sheba shminis. You have to have a little pie- a little bit of gaivah, uh, which I, I forget how he exactly translates it, but it's the, the idea of, of being bold in your kum otara mitzvahs. So it's that idea of bittle and, not bittle and yeshes, it's more bittle, bittle of the things, uh, bittle together with identity. Uh, when, when bittle means losing your identity completely, then you have a problem because very, like the famous joke about Lubavitchers is that they talk about bittle the whole day, and they're the biggest yeshes,

1:13:51 Speaker 3 right? Why? Because when your identity becomes bittle, that's the ultimate kind of yesh. Right? Right? Like, "I'm gonna show him who's battle." Right? But when, when you, when, when you're, the bittle is, the bittle doesn't, isn't your identity. The bittle is what allows your identity to be the purest identity-

1:14:13 Speaker 1 That's right

1:14:13 Speaker 3 ... and the strongest identity, right?

1:14:15 Speaker 1 Like, like, like the Ma'asei Har Sinai.

1:14:17 Speaker 3 Right. So-

1:14:18 Speaker 1 You know, if the message is humility, so give it in a valley.

1:14:21 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:21 Speaker 1 No, it's gotta be a mountain, but a humble mountain. It's not a bit of both.

1:14:25 Speaker 3 Right. It's both at the same time.

1:14:26 Speaker 1 It's not a balance. Kind of one without the other. The bittle is kashala atzmi ein ve'efes. A speck of dust in the, the whole Bri is yesh ma'ein has no mitzias. You want me? You want... That makes me absolutely everything, and you want me in all the limitations you made me, and that makes every limitation, every talent, I have everything. So the bittle is what creates the emeser isnasus.

1:14:53 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:53 Speaker 1 That's why malchus is this enigma. On the one hand, malchus is bittle.

1:14:56 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:57 Speaker 1 And it's isnasus. Well, what is it? Sovereign value. My sovereign value becomes everything because of what the creator has invested and chosen.

1:15:06 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:07 Speaker 1 You made me. That makes me everything.

1:15:09 Speaker 3 Right. Right. So, I mean, I guess the question comes down to, you know, you said earlier that you could have been an academic, but you're not an academic, you're a rabbi, right? And so, you know, in, in the world of academia, we learn a Maimon, you learn, you know, a Maimon like Vatsatsav. And, uh, to me, the, maybe the word tragedy is too, is too hard, but the... I'll just use it 'cause I don't have a better, better word right now. But, like, the tragedy of Vatsatsav is that people pe- like it's learned. Like, it's learned almost as like, "Yeah, yeah, of course. This is like, this is of co-," you know. It's like it's, it's, like, 'cause in every paragraph, there's another jump. Uh, there's another jump that's like an infinite, right? In general, there was no Maimonim like that. Like, in, in, in a few lines, you travel what other Maimonim take him shechem to get to, and it's like, uh, you know, first it's Kechegulim, no, not Kechegulim, it's Etzem. And it's not even Etzem, it's the Etzem, the way it comes out of Kechugulim. Each one of these steps is an infinite step. So on an academic paper, it's exciting, it's provocative, it's, it lights up your, your, your mind in a, you know, in unusual ways. Wow. Like, it's like, you know, like a dazzling light that turns on. But in practice, the question is, can you have both, right? Um, it, it sounds like you think we can have

1:16:29 Speaker 3 both. Um, it also sounds like you, you, you agree, um, that, uh, looking back, there was a period of time where we didn't have both. Uh, you know, one of the things that I've thought about a lot over the course of this podcast with different people, one of the new things that I've thought about that have come from the conversations is a new appreciation for the Maimon Chazal that's brought all the time in Chassidus, but always seems to be left as, like, an abstract kind of mashal. It's the Maimon, I think it's from Gemara, but it takes 40 years ad koma d'ai to the Rebbe, right? It takes 40 years to f- to fully appreciate or at all appreciate the, the meaning and then the, the, the, the perspective of the Rav. I haven't really... I don't remember in Yeshiva hearing how that, like-- Yes, it's brought in Chassidus as a mashal about tzimtzum and about this, the, the gulf between a, a, a cr- a creation and, and the creator, right? But it's also about a Rav and a Talmid, and certainly about a Rav and a Cha- a Rebbe and a Chassid, right? And like in Yeshiva, the, the idea of, like, the Rebbe haste next day, you, or that day you do it. Like, the Rebbe haste, you, you, you got it. Like, there's no, there's no lag, 40 years lag, right? But something that I've thought about is that maybe there is a lag, you know. Like, may-maybe the Rebbe was

1:17:54 Speaker 3 speaking about certain things, and you, you talking earlier about, about, you know, the, the, the Yid, it being about the Yid and, and, and the, who the dr- who the, who the Yid truly is. That's what it's all about. It's not even about what he does in this world. The, what he does in this world is only to bring out his connection to, to, to Hashem. Um, you know, maybe it's taking 40 years to figure out, you know, what the Rebbe-

1:18:21 Speaker 1 Very possible

1:18:21 Speaker 3 ... was talking about. I'm saying-

1:18:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:18:24 Speaker 3 ... we, we have this concept of, of, like, you know, the Rebbe said things, and then now we're trying to hold on. At least this is how it's brought up in Yeshiva. The Rebbe said it 30 years ago, 40 years ago, and now I'm trying to hold on to what the Rebbe said. If only I could live back then.

1:18:40 Speaker 1 Hmm.

1:18:40 Speaker 3 If only I could go back in time. You know, one of the most disturbing things I ever re- I ever heard or was part of was I sent an email to... I used to sell programs to shluchim, as you remember. And I sent out an email by mistake announcing programs for the year 5770 when it was really the year 5780. So I made a mistake that I, I said it was 10 years earlier than it was. And somebody corrected me. He says, "If only it wa-- I wish it was 10 years earlier, 'cause it'd be 10 years less away from Gilgul Tammuz, but alas, we are 10 years further." And to me, that was like, it's such a, it's such a sad way to live. It's an impossible way to live. You know, living where you're, like, upset about time. Like, the one thing you can't control is time moving, and you're upset about it. It's like, it's like being upset about, about life. Like, there's nothing you can do about it. So like the, there has been, at least when I was in Yeshiva, there was this thing where, like, the Rebbe said it back then, and now we're just, like, holding onto the fumes. We're trying to hold on to, we're trying to grasp at straws. The idea of ad koma d'ai to the Rebbe is that, no, like, it's gonna take 40 years to figure out. You're 10 years closer to the truth.

1:19:56 Speaker 1 On the contrary. Yeah, I think it's in the contrary, exact deeper understanding and deeper understanding. In fact, the Rebbe Koch took on that in the Tosh Shin Mem. Yeah, 40 years from Tosh Shin Yud, the whole year was that whole Koch. Now we can, now we actually get it. So on the contrary, with the passage of time, it's, on a personal level, I can see that. My appreciation and a deeper understanding of that same Maimon we learned, it's, it's getting deeper and deeper and more relevant. More relevant. More, more, uh, um, luminous and more vibrant.

1:20:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:20:35 Speaker 1 And I tr- I try in part that, uh, not to try. Either you do or you don't. But when we learn Siddur in the morning, this is now. When the Hashgacha Protis, we're learning this Maimon, this Maimon is this Maimon now. And we so often, we're, like, amazed at Hashgacha Protis of what's going on at the point the Maimon we are learning. But that's 'cause Hashgacha Protis extends to everything, especially in, in Torah and the Rebbe's Torah, so it's really, uh, striking often. But absolutely, the passage of time just clearer and clearer And sometimes quantum, like we didn't get this at all. That's all he's saying.

1:21:13 Speaker 3 Look, I wasn't there. You were there, which is why I'm bringing it up to hear what you think about it. I wasn't there. I grew up after that. But, like, to me, it almost seems like paradoxically when the, when the rebbe is there saying it, because the rebbe's presence is so large, it's almost like, like there's no space in the room for anything else. It's like, you know, we talk like there's, there's no, there's no individual Hasid. There's no... Like, you, you remind me of like Vat Tatava. My guess is when it came out, nobody understood it the way you just, you just described it because I did... What do I mean? Like, uh, we are s- like, like there's a, there's individual Hasid. No, like that's not what it means. Like it was probably understood completely different, right?

1:22:00 Speaker 1 Very possible. Right.

1:22:01 Speaker 3 Right? And 'cause like paradoxically, when the rebbe is there, you can't even understand. You need distance to understand, especially, especially large things like, like a mountain, right? Uh, or even like, like I remember I, I was in San Francisco and I went for a jog, and so I went for a jog by the Golden Gate Bridge, which I don't know if you've ever been there. The scenery is beautiful. But then I figured, you know what? I'm already here. Let me extend my jog onto the Golden Gate Bridge. And it was hideous. It was hideous. The bridge is rusty. It's falling apart. You don't-- the scenery's gone. It's noisy. And like you, the joy is all lost. You only appreciate something that large from afar, right? And, you know, it seems like, uh, what do you think about that concept? Because I mean, in a way, like it may sound controversial. I don't think it's that even like provocative, but I, I, I wonder what you think about that. Because there was a time, there was a time where... And, and there is a still a, there's still a part, uh, there's still for sure a fact where people feel that they are missing something profound today, right? Sugarcoat it, don't sugarcoat it. At the end of the day, Lubavitch has always been with a rebbe that spoke to the moment, and whether it's because there's a crisis like there is right now in Eretz Yisrael or just in general, like there's a leader who, you

1:23:32 Speaker 3 know, who, who, who's guiding the ship. That's what it was. And there's something missing, right? But I feel like to only see it that way and to s- and not see an opportunity, I feel is, A, it, it, I feel like it's missing an opportunity, obviously. But B, I feel like that just, that leaves us only with negativity.

1:23:55 Speaker 1 I totally agree with you. And then Mrs. Rebbe himself set this pattern, this, this movement of distance and on your own, and just over time, Yechiel is phasing out. The early days, the first years, I mean, to buy, which car to buy, guys asked. And then gradually, the rebbe removed himself from getting involved in this direct do it this way. Even Shlichas, early days, you go. He didn't want that. It's gotta come melemata. It's gotta be your truth. Take ownership. And Yechiel stopped and, and, and, and, and even the way the fabrengens were written.

1:24:37 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:24:38 Speaker 1 Towards the end, if you listen to the fabregen, the way they wrote it up, the rebbe exactly, "Not my words. Assimilate it, discuss it, come and then write it. Submit it, and I'll edit it if you, if you're off," and sometimes they were. But, uh, the whole fabregen was a completely new creation. Then Mr. Rebbe's my marem that way 'cause he got that, the Rebbe got this from the rebbe very clearly. He completely reworked the year, reworked the maimer-

1:25:04 Speaker 3 Right

1:25:04 Speaker 1 ... in seichel.

1:25:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:25:07 Speaker 1 In the logic, in the seichel, and then the style has uniquely the Rebbe's actually signature on it, and that's it. So that's so be it. So the reb actually-

1:25:16 Speaker 3 That's-

1:25:16 Speaker 1 ... wanted that. He wanted that, and during his lifetime it was continuing it that way. He wanted in Gemant to say, find out if Shlichas and go and be Madia and Gebrocha. Beautiful. Not to have to be told and dictated from above.

1:25:30 Speaker 3 That's very interesting because I've, I've always thought about the story, but he'll parcher, you know, the famous story where he was-- he heard a maimer, I think, from the Tzemach Tzedek, and he haz it over to the Tzemach Tzedek, and Tzemach Tzedek said, "That's not how I said it." He said, "Yeah, but that's how I heard it." Like, like I can't... The same way I ca- I don't own the maimer you said, you don't own the maimer that I heard.

1:25:52 Speaker 1 He argued with him.

1:25:53 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

1:25:54 Speaker 1 He argued with him.

1:25:54 Speaker 3 This is what I heard, and this is, this is for me the maimer, right? And, and it's interesting 'cause what you're saying is that like... 'Cause I used to, I used to say that in yeshiva also, Rebbe was like a, like Rebbe doesn't exist in this maimer. I'm like, "What are you, what are you kidding? Like listen to it on tape. It's a different maimer. It's not..."

1:26:12 Speaker 1 Rebbe edited it, so we treat it with the, with the respect that it does.

1:26:15 Speaker 3 Fine.

1:26:15 Speaker 1 But the pale mamish, it has been filtered through-

1:26:18 Speaker 3 I agree

1:26:19 Speaker 1 ... and that's what he wants, that's what Rebbe wants.

1:26:20 Speaker 3 I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to blaspheme it.

1:26:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:26:22 Speaker 3 I'm not trying to say that it's not the Rebbe's, that's not... But it's, there's a difference between a maimer that the rebbe wrote and the rebbe wrote in his words or a maimer that was written and, and, and like you said, reworked and thought through by Reb Biel in the way he thinks about things, which is very distinct.

1:26:39 Speaker 1 And the first level-

1:26:39 Speaker 3 And the rebbe, the rebbe approves of it

1:26:41 Speaker 1 ... and the first level is just being there.

1:26:43 Speaker 3 Right.

1:26:43 Speaker 1 Just being there, not even understanding it properly, but that is just the pure rebbe.

1:26:48 Speaker 3 Right.

1:26:48 Speaker 1 Uh, oy, the, the, the, the moir is shining, and that's it. Uh, ninety percent didn't understand it even.

1:26:57 Speaker 3 Right.

1:26:57 Speaker 1 You know. So yeah, that's the hundred percent. And so in that sense, therefore... Look, if we, if this is true, and it is true, then with the passage of time- It cannot be getting weaker. It must, it can potentially and is, with all of the pitfalls, uh, getting stronger. We're closer to Mashiach, not furthered, no matter what's going on. No matter what's going on. And it, it clearly in terms of the kavonah al yonah, which is atah tetzav again, that the etzem permeate the tachnun, mitzah the tachnun, the protim. That is what's happening, and that's the kavonah al yonah. And, and therefore the individual's voice and, uh, and understanding it and the, the discovery and the unique contribution is m- must become ever stronger, the more powerful.

1:27:58 Speaker 3 But, but-

1:27:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:27:59 Speaker 3 ... you wanna finish?

1:28:00 Speaker 1 No, no, I'm just saying that again, the fascination with the Rebbe is not abated. But how is it coming? He's looking up and discovering and listening and saying, "Wow," you know, it's coming. He, uh, he, it's coming mitzah the mata. The mata is seeking, the mata is embracing it, the mata is internalizing it all across the board.

1:28:18 Speaker 3 Right. But you're saying though that, I think what you're saying is that fascination with the Rebbe per se, like the bachurim gawking at the Rebbe or following the Rebbe-

1:28:26 Speaker 1 No, not that kind of fascination

1:28:27 Speaker 3 Right. I'm saying that-

1:28:28 Speaker 1 Not, not the overwhelming fascination

1:28:30 Speaker 3 The, the mem's fascination is not ne- necessarily what you're after over here

1:28:33 Speaker 1 No. No, no, no, no. Not that. No, no. The fascination of the how this resonates as true.

1:28:38 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

1:28:39 Speaker 1 How this resonates as true.

1:28:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:28:41 Speaker 1 And I need, want to understand this deeper.

1:28:43 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

1:28:43 Speaker 1 I need to hear more. I wanna know more.

1:28:46 Speaker 3 Right. So to, to put, to, to, to kind of tie everything together, you know, we started off with, with this idea of, you know, you growing up in this setting where until there was an intervention with the shluchim, there was this kind of, I wouldn't say downward trajectory, but there was a trajectory of maybe, let's say dilution, you know, or some kind of assimilation. So, you know, so, you know, k- or settling down into the world, 'cause it doesn't seem like you're describing it in a negative way. But in terms of Lubavitch identity, there was certainly a, a dilution, a, a, that's where the trend was, right? Which makes sense because after the war, um, you had a Hasid here, a Hasid there. In Australia, it was an extreme, right? Where there was just literally a handful of Hasidim on a disconnected continent completely. And I, I, I have a, I have a feeling for that 'cause I grew up even more disconnected in Hong Kong. But I grew up in that side of the world. You are disconnected from the rest of the world, right? Um, so it makes sense that growing up there you would not have the same kind of solid identity like your grandfather in Tench Chaim Im Emun or wherever he grew up with a group of Hasidim and so on. Then there's this change and, you know, you come to 770 and there's certainly, however you describe it, there is a narrative that the Rebbe himself spoke about, but

1:30:15 Speaker 3 it's certainly part of the Chabad kind of mythology of itself, where, you know, everything is pointing towards Mashiach. So it's all on the up and up, right? Lubavitch is getting bigger. Lubavitch is getting stronger. The world is getting better. In the last years, I was talking about the fall of the Soviet Union, right? Everything, everything's on the up and up. Yes, there are, there's ups and downs, and there's the Six-Day War, and there's the Yom Kippur War, and there's other tzaros, and there's, there's still tzaros in the Soviet Union, but on the whole, things are on the up, right? What, what do you-- Where do we, how do we understand our times today? To me, it's almost like both the first narrative and the second narrative are still kind-- are still around, and in a way they're competing with each other, right? Because on one hand, I think it's undoubtedly true that there is a sort of assimilation taking place or dilution taking place, right? There are, uh, kids growing up today, grandkids growing up today, post-Gimel Tammuz. Um, and the same way that you looked at your grandfather, I don't know about your grandkids, but there are grandkids looking up at their grandfathers like you looked up at your grandfather. Wonderful man. Looks the part of a Hasid, but I don't relate to him. He loves me, I love him, but he's from a different world. People, there are kids today that look at their grandparents that way. That's one narrative or one part

1:31:46 Speaker 3 of the narrative. Another part of the narrative is we're closer to Mashiach. We're still building. We're still getting bigger. We're still getting stronger. We're still moving forward. People are more interested in the Rebbe's message, right? We're not going, we're not, like we said, we're not going a step backward, we're going a step forward. H-how do we, how do we reconcile these two, these two competing trend, trend lines?

1:32:13 Speaker 1 The same way that it works for me when these American boys came, and wow, they're American, cool, speak my language and my world, and yet, and yet they're Hasidim. We just, it just, we just, we have been failing our children. We've just been, the, the system has failed them. And as I said before, it's, it's changing, and I hope just more rapidly. Everybody wants, everybody is seeking. It's, it's in our... It's the emes. We're all seekers. We're seekers of the truth. We're seekers of our own neshamah, of the Aibishter. We just gotta bring it to them in a way that, that, that's real for them, and that's all. Just the, the, the way we are conveying the message, all of it, Hasidus, Rebbe, Yiddishkeit, Torah.

1:32:57 Speaker 3 But I'm not talking about my children. I'm talking about myself also. Like I, I'm, I'm not talking just about chinuch to my children. Maybe it becomes more of an acute issue because it's a generation further along, but how do we understand it for ourselves? Like where- Where, where are we going? Is, is, are we still adamant about everything being on the up and up? Like, even to put it in more geopolitical terms, like the Soviet Union fell in the '90s, but it's be-been reconstituted and become a troublemaker in 2020, right? Like, like-

1:33:30 Speaker 1 But there's still the freedom of religion, and this guy just, you know, hasn't been compromised.

1:33:35 Speaker 3 Right. But the world-- Like I-I... Like there was a moment in the '90s where America won and, and things... Like people were writing things like the end of history.

1:33:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:33:44 Speaker 3 And, and, and every... We've solved history, like we-we're in the clear now. Nobody thinks that today, right? And that's, that's just on a geopolitical level. But on a, on a deeper, on a deeper level, Jews today feel very... Okay, right now acutely they feel very, very isolated. Um, they feel very disoriented, right? The Holocaust doesn't seem as far away in the, in the rear view mirror as, as it used to, right? And so I'm not trying to, uh, like I'm not trying to get overly fixated with how things are right in this moment. But I think as a trend line, the idea of seeing things as just purely optimistic and things just getting better is harder to hold onto as the only thing that's true. Like, we are competing with two things, aren't we, or no?

1:34:30 Speaker 1 Well, the Rebbe said we have to open our eyes, and this requires, you know, perception and, and analysis, looking below the surface, and it's not obvious necessarily. Even the matzav right now, that we are in this terrible matzav, I, I'm, I, I see an unprecedented awakening. I see Israel compelled to confront itself. For a long time we were, you know, kachol hagoyim, which is have our own country, we'll be fine, and that's the, that's the solution to the Jewish problem. It's all collapsed, right? Jews everywhere are confronted, forced to confront what is Jew? Why Jew? What's the obsession with us? How can anybody ignore the obsession of the world with this tiny percentage of the population, this small sliver of land? It, it's going to inevitably lead to this. The obsession with the world with us is because the world senses its own redemption is in our hands. In other words, antisemitism, this is the root of it, and this is all based on the Rebbe's teachings, but, you know, it took 40 years for me anyway to grasp it. The chosen people means we're chosen to be responsible. We're... For the world. We're here in this world to bring godliness to the world, and the world senses that we want something from them. As much as we try and dumb it down, and we're like everybody else, they won't buy it. We can be in a country for 500, 900 years and not a dime. Germany, sophisticated Jews that assimilate, I don't have to

1:36:02 Speaker 1 tell you. Within a few years, this, this cult, this, this icon of culture turned into this barbaric, clinically barbaric, they still remain barbaric state. They're just be... Hitler's problem with the Jew was he was a great believer in Darwinism, and that's the survival of the fittest, and the Jews' insistence that all people are e-equal, con- a conscience, and so on. So all to say, the obsession with us is that they feel we want something from them. And if you don't say what it is, it's gonna be, "We want your daughters, we want your money." What? They'll just exploit it and strangle us with it until we come out with, "Yeah, I want something from you. It's not your daughter, and it's not your money. I want you to live a godly life 'cause you're everything for God. God loves you." That is our mi-mi- our mission. That-that's what chosen people means. And they're not letting us go. They're holding us in a stranglehold. We're the problem, we're the answer, we're the... No Jew can ignore this today. No Jew can ignore that we are the center of the world, the spotlight is on us. And the more we try to just be like everybody else, the more it's backfired. It's backfired. Just this, it just, it, it, it breeds contempt, derision, and mistrust. Mistrust. Because the Jew, the non-Jew looks at me and sees in my eyes, and I can't hide it, the neshamah just pumps, "I want something from you." And I'm saying, "I

1:37:23 Speaker 1 don't." So you're a liar. You're fundamentally... I don't trust you. Don't trust you. So we have to embrace this. "Yep, you're right. There is something I want from you, and I am different." I'm sent here. Without saying these words, I mean, just live it. I'm sent here to the world to make a world a home for God in which you are integral. And that the Rebbe says in an instant will just turn it all around. So the world's gonna say, "So that's what. Why didn't you tell us?" This obsession that we are... Again, for the Hitler, he laid it bare in the most distorted way. The greatest, the Rebbe Rashab says that as, as that evil, the lashon hara says the Emes, and the greater the evil, the greater the truth. Communism, yeah, at some level we are all equal. There's a great truth to that. You know, the world is paradise, it's utopia, terribly corrupted. Now, Hitler was far worse. He said the Jew is not subhuman. I'm sorry, he said the Jews are not inferior. Blacks are inferior, gypsies are inferior, Poles, different levels of in-inferiority. The Jews are cancer.

1:38:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:38:29 Speaker 1 He called himself the Messiah because the nature of nature is to evolve. The Aryan race is the superior race, and to insist that all people are equal, made in the image of God, this retards the natural growth of civilization, the survival of the fittest. And he sought to clinically remove this. This isn't hate. It's beyond hate. Clinically remove this cancer from the world. So he exposed that we're not, we're some, some other category. We're foreigners. We're fundamental foreigners. What is? The neshamah is not part of the brit. It's a chelek al hamamash. It's fundamentally foreign to creation, and it's come down to creation to reveal godliness. And the day Hashem is welcome is the day we're welcome, and it comes together. And the world is, its obsession with us is to hear this. What do you want? What are you bringing? What do you want from me?

1:39:21 Speaker 3 Right.

1:39:22 Speaker 1 So the answer to antisemitism is to embrace our, the roots. I mean, just, uh, historically, Christianity, Islam, it's all rooted in the Torah by their own admission. Muhammad can't contradict a single thing it says in the Torah.

1:39:33 Speaker 3 Right.

1:39:34 Speaker 1 And so we've got to embrace our roots, and the branch is either heal or fall off, but that's where it is. The war with Christianity is over. They've apologized, crusades are over. The final not of Rome and Ishmael. The very beginning has come round now. This is, this is the great... And it's an ideological battle. They're saying it is. They're saying it is. It's, it's an ideological battle. We're the roots. We embrace it. We live it. We share it. It's light. They're darkness. They have no substance. There's no such thing as a Palestinian people. It's just a huge bluff and sheker. There was never a cause in the world that has garnered so much attention, pouring in billions, and it doesn't even exist. Bit of probing, you know, the religion, just a bit of probing. What's the history here? Nonsense. And yet it's a sheker. Like the rabbi told Bibi, it's all-- it's a chayshech. How do you fight it? Just l- light the candle of truth. We all live as Jews truly, and it's an extraordinary time, and I believe it's happening. We're gonna transform this whole thing in an instant. In an instant. So-

1:40:37 Speaker 4 So-- But tie it back to Lubavitch. Tie it back to Lubavitch.

1:40:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:40:40 Speaker 4 Right? You're, you're, you're basically taking a, a situation that seems to be a, a, a, a serious downturn in this narrative of-

1:40:51 Speaker 1 Progress towards Moshiach

1:40:52 Speaker 4 ... progress towards Moshiach, and you're, you're showing how if on the surface it, it looks that way, there's also, on a, on a deeper level, there's a way to look at it that, that, that points in the opposite direction.

1:41:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:41:04 Speaker 4 Um, let, let's go back to the Lubavitch question. So, you know, we're-- it's, it's, it's 30 years or close to 30 years after Gematamos. Um, there are more and more children in terms of proportion or numbers who are dis- uh, disenchanted or disenfranchised from the Lubavitch, uh, story, or at least that's how they feel. Um, in many ways it feels like, like, like things are, um, are, are f- I don't know, falling apart, but diluting and kind of-

1:41:41 Speaker 1 We're losing. We're losing. We're losing the battle.

1:41:43 Speaker 4 Right. So how do we-

1:41:44 Speaker 1 We're losing our kids.

1:41:45 Speaker 4 So how do you, how do you look at it, how do you look at it, h- h- how do you... For, A, it's-- Okay, so it seems like you, you, you insist that we can still see it as a, as, as something still getting closer to Moshiach, right? How do you look at it that way?

1:42:00 Speaker 1 I think even with the other side, even with our kids, look, we have failed them, but I think, I think we're awake. I think it's changing. I think the schools are changing. I think the system is changing. I think the language is changing. I think we are, I hope, I think we are, um, reaching our kids. The kids are disenchanted through no fault of their own. We just failed to convey the message, the joy, the value, their value, that you, this is The rebbe's essential message: You are everything. It's starting to get traction a little bit, but that's what Dirut Achronit means. Forty years later or 30 years later, let's wake up. Uh, and to think, I believe it is happening. I believe it is happening. And, and, you know, our kids, externally, who knows where they are, but I, I, I think that b'pnimius they're so close. Just needs the emes, love, and embrace, and in a moment they're, "It's okay. We're, you know, we're here." I, I don't see, I don't see that, I don't see, uh, it's not an i-- If it's, if it's an ideological rejection, which it's not even, even that mostly, but even if it is, it's because they didn't get-- no one told them what the real story is. Now is the time. Now is the time. Now is the chassidis Dirut Achronit, the relationship with the God. I'm gonna conclude with a story rabbis like to tell. This is the MTC story. Please say this at every

1:43:25 Speaker 1 occasion that I can if your listeners will, uh, benefit from it, it's worth it. So I don't know if the story actually happened, but it's a great story. The, the message is good. So after the '67 war, so the-- I am-- I was 10 years old. I recall it. I mean, that was such a high. There was such a, uh, a cry by Jewish leadership failed. I mean, Yidden were so ready just to be taken to shul, to your Shabbos table. There was such a, such a nisoyones and such an awakening Jewish pride that the whole world was enamored with. So Miftach Tzion, everybody knew about Miftach Tzion, and the Rebbe's nevua, and then the story goes, you've heard the story probably. Train is going, and there's a, a, a rabbi sitting in the train, Mishpacha Lubavitch, and on gets an officer, and he's caught up with the whole euphoria of the miracle Miftach Tzion, and he approaches the officer to put on tefillin. He politely declines. "No, thank you." All right. Story goes that the next stop was Reb Mendel or whoever it was, a Chassid. And the, the first rabbi watches the scene. There's a little conversation there. Next thing you see is the officer's rolling up his sleeve, putting on tefillin, and he's hurt, frankly. Although he's happy that the officer's putting on tefillin. So he approaches him and says, "Can you explain this to me?" The officer, after it's done. "I asked you, you declined. He did. You said yes. What's

1:44:49 Speaker 1 the difference?" So the story goes that the Chassid said-- the officer said to the Rav, "When you asked me to put on tefillin, I sensed you were saying to me, 'Put on tefillin and be Jewish.' Well, I am Jewish, thank you very much, so no, thank you. I felt he was saying, 'You're Jewish, so put on tefillin.'" I mean, I can't tell, I can't tell. For too long is, "Do this and become." No. It's, "That's who I am, so liberate, express it. This expresses you." That's, that's a big chidush of chidush, underscored, and it was Maimonidov again. So the mitzvahs don't create us. They express us.

1:45:32 Speaker 4 Right.

1:45:32 Speaker 1 It's all they serve the Jew. We don't serve Yiddishkeit. It's an avodah zarah. It's the Yid. And Yiddishkeit is there to express the Jew, so it's, it's actually liberating. It's freedom.

1:45:46 Speaker 4 Right.

1:45:46 Speaker 1 The-- All these different mitzvahs are just the different ways that I express myself, so they're not burdens. They're, they're, they're This message is not, not being conveyed clearly. It doesn't... You become, undertake, and do. You're perfect. You don't even need it. The emes, you don't need it So why? Because God wants you to express you are one with Him, and He wants that to illuminate, that your body should feel it, your hand should feel it, your words should see it. He loves, He so, loves us so much, He wants the whole world to know this. When you love, this was an old record, when you love the whole world, whole world is Jewish. It's an old, uh, th- this message, the relationship, mitzvahs is God's request to be part of, to express that connection, which you are whether you do it or not. You are. And the whole consequences and reward, we're back to the Garden of Eden. There are no consequences. You plant it, you got right away. Th- today's world, they need, it's gotta be, tell me it's now. Not, yeah, and it is now. It's the relationship right now. It's not about what it's gonna bring. It does, but that's, that's the peripheral. It is about the re- and you count, and every detail of your life is everything.

1:47:03 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:47:03 Speaker 1 That's when we need to convey this. This is, this is the Rebbe's chassidus. This is, like I told you the story, just bring me another Jew so I can give him that dollar and tell him, make her feel that... Everybody says this, is when you went by for the dollar, you were the only person in the world. Everybody says that, 'cause that's the emes. And it was not this great, uh, psychologist rabbi made everybody feel good. It's a pure emes. You are everything. And he wasn't a martyr. You know, when, when he devoted his time, you are everything. It's a privilege to be with you. And every Jew, that, that sense, that emes is what we need to convey to our children. They've gotta see the joy in us, in the parents and the educators, and they'll, they'll, they'll gravi- they'll come back. They'll gravitate. It's who they are. It's beautiful. It's true. It's emes. It's not their fault, and not even our fault. It's a learning curve coming from the Holocaust, all the things survival, and all the, all of the insulate survival, put up walls. The world's not the enemy. No one's the enemy. It's a dinur waiting to be illuminated, to be touched. Every human being is waiting to be touched. That's how the Rebbe taught them. What are you afraid of? Don't go on the defensive, you know, the combat, you know? Embrace. Basile Gani, it's a beautiful garden waiting to blossom. Every child is. And we have that attitude, and

1:48:32 Speaker 1 we convey the message properly. It's ohr. It illuminates lots of darkness and confusion. Doesn't take much. In an instant. "Maat min ha'ohr deichecha b'min hachesed." The power of light. As you correctly says, as time goes on, the Rebbe's message gets clearer, understand it deeper. Much more. Much more. Read the Ikaris, everything just becomes so much, it resonates so much more powerfully than I ever, ever understood it. Every mind, everything.

1:49:07 Speaker 4 All right, on that note, that is a beautiful way to end. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

1:49:12 Speaker 1 My pleasure.

1:49:13 Speaker 4 Thank you. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Zorn and Nadav Bahar, and is used with their permission.