Ep. 1 // "Is Lubavitch Identity in Question?" with Rabbi Yossi Nemes

00:00 Speaker 1 We're not gonna all have common experiences now. We're not even gonna have a common view of, of what the Rebbe means to us. But the two things that are most important is, the one, one is an important as to which way you're heading to, but another person is-- uh, another point is that you really can't do it alone. You have to connect with other Chassidim.

00:20 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2023. My name is Ben Siawfzin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Yeah, so like, like we were discussing earlier, the, the point of this, the point of this podcast, nobody's paying me to do it. Um, nobody's really asking me to do it. It's something that I'm doing for, doing from myself and also a little bit for myself, um, is, is to really discuss with people the question of Lubavitch identity in 2023. Now, one can ask, f-first of all, what does that even mean? And second of all, who cares? Right? Like, what's, what does it mean? It means that every community, every group of people has a shared, a shared, um, sense of who they are and what they're about, and individuals place themselves in that larger story that they all share, right? Um, you know, so you could go to the largest group, people identify as people, and then within that, men identify as men, and so on, and so on and so forth until you get to smaller and smaller groups. Yidden identify as Yidden, right? That doesn't mean everybody's exactly the same, but it means that every Yid identifies with a larger picture, the, the Avos, the Imos, and so on. Um, so Lubavitch also has an identity or had an identity. I mean, for sure has an identity today. It feels like there was once an identity that was a little bit simpler and more

02:04 Speaker 2 straightforward, and people would right away, um, if you asked them what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher, they would say right away what it meant, and more or less people would kind of agree on what it meant. Today it feels like it's fragmenting and falling. Um, I'm not, I don't know if it's falling apart, but it's, it's becoming more, more fragmented. People have their own ideas of what it means. Um, so then the second question is, who cares? Like, right, why do you even need it in the first place? And what I, what I think is, is that I think we need it more than we realize. You know, uh, to expect every individual to form for themselves from the ground up an entire understanding of who they are and what they're about is asking too much. There's a reason why we have these identities. It's not just, you know, what they call social constructs that, that, that are, that are just for power or whatever the, the critics like to say. It, it's what holds people together. It's what gives people a sense of place and a sense of meaning. And so I, I feel like there's a, there's a big challenge when that, when the identity that so many of us share begins to come under pressure and begins to go its different ways. And so, you know, the goal of the podcast is to, is to, is to not to necessarily come up with an answer. I don't think any of

03:28 Speaker 2 us have an answer, and I don't know if it's a question that demands a single answer. I think that's the whole point. Um, there is no... I don't think anybody can give an answer and, or claim to speak for everybody. But I think by having conversations where people talk about what it means to them, we can, A, see how things are kind of going in different directions, but also hopefully see the things that bring people together and like what, what is the essence that still ties people together? What are people holding onto? What are, what are, what are people identifying with? What is important to them? Anyway, that was hopefully the longest part of, of the podcast of me talking. I did not fly to New Orleans to talk.

04:10 Speaker 1 Thanks. Thanks. First of all, welcome to New Orleans, Benzi.

04:12 Speaker 2 Thank you.

04:13 Speaker 1 And thank you for laying out the, uh, the idea of what we're doing here today.

04:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

04:17 Speaker 1 Great.

04:18 Speaker 2 Thank you for, thank you for, for agreeing to do this. Um, I know I showed up in New Orleans at, to your home, but believe it or not, many people would be reluctant to do it even if I made the same exact offer and have been reluctant to do it, so I appreciate it. I appreciate it very much. So I figure in, in this, in, in our, in our conversation, you know, a lot of people I've been speaking to before this in the other episodes, um, they're, they're closer to my age. So we're talking about our understanding of Lubavitch from a little bit, you know, from, from, you know, from our, from essentially from a post-Gamal Talmud's perspective. We all grew up, uh, you know, if we were, if we were born before that, we grew up after that, and so we see things from a different place. I think it would make sense in, in our case here for you to just talk a little bit about what was, what was it like to grow up as a Lubavitcher? And just discuss a little bit your childhood, where you grew up, you know, the general memories that you had.

05:18 Speaker 1 Sure. So I grew up in Crown Heights, the Lubavitch family. Uh, I went to Alef-Tef from when I was, from as long as I remember, from preschool all through Sheva Da- Sheva Dalet and Zal, you know. Till I was 19, I went on Shluchis. Of course, a happy childhood. There were always... Things were centered around the Rebbe, you know. And, um, you know, my formative years were really the four years in Zal between 15 and 19. You know, every, every bocher who was in, uh, Alef-Tef and so who l- learned next to the Rebbe, they look at those years as the golden years. Some say it was the Chaf's or the Lamed's or the Mem's. It just depends when you were there. But there was, uh, in those years when I was in Alef-Tef from 15 to 19, it's, uh, Tushim Mem Beis through Mem He, so '82 through '85. That was a time where the Rebbe really was... I heard Yossie Greenberg define it like this. The Rebbe was like a Rav where he's telling me that every Shabbos, I should say almost every Shabbos is a farbrengen, and the Rebbe was seemed like very patiently developing these ideas and wait, you know, explaining it until we got it, and expecting us to write our comments in the others, and complaining how come nobody answered my questions, and no, how come nobody questioned what I said if it's, uh-

06:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

06:35 Speaker 1 You know, there's a Gemara that says differently. It was a, a, a, um, a relationship with, uh, back and forth, but really in, uh... It wa- it was good times. It was relatively calm times. The Rebbe had recovered from the events of 700kes. The Rebbe's health was good, and he was there for us, and we were there for him, and there wasn't Yechidus. There wasn't even dollars, but it was just we were constantly with the Rebbe, and Rebbe was teaching us like a teacher. I left on Shluchus, uh, right after Tishrei, Taf Shin Mem Vav, and things took a marked change. Then start, you know, it started with the trial with the Sfarim, the intensity of the Dan LeTzaf, and then some other things that were going on in Lubavitch, and then the Rebbetsin, the stalkers of the Rebbetsin, and the Rebbe's push for Moshiach, and everybody needs to have a Rav, somebody you can ask besides him for counsel, and things, everything took a great intensity. The farbrengens, the Rebbe seemed much more urgent and intense and shorter and, and getting right to the point. It was a different era. So I was in an era really, in those years, the Shabbos farbrengens would always go till 5:30, winter or summer. You know, winter went straight to Maariv. And it was a very... It was, uh... Of course, the Rebbe demanded from us a couple times a year on Shabbos, never on weekday, the Rebbe would give mussar to the bochur, by the way.

07:50 Speaker 1 Never when it was on a mic.

07:52 Speaker 2 Really?

07:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, always was Shabbos, and often the Rebbe said it shouldn't be in the Hanukkah, but all the bochurim had it, of course. Um, I remember one Shabbos Hanukkah, the Rebbe speaking about, uh, th- there's a lack of, of, of not enough connection, and that the Friediker Rebbe said that Italy was a very disorganized country, and, uh, the way it, uh, expressed itself once they had this big, uh, big event showing off the first, uh, the first rail cars. What's it called? The first, um, trains.

08:21 Speaker 2 Locomotives.

08:22 Speaker 1 Locomotives to go, and, uh, everybody came with great fanfare and balloons, but they forgot to hook up the locomotive to the other cars. The locomotive left the station, and the other cars remained. So the Rebbe said he heard that from the Friediker Rebbe. So the Rebbe said, "It's, you know, there's a lo- There's needs to be more connection. Otherwise, Shabbos I'm gonna stay in my room, and you could be here." He said, "Shabbos Avodah, I have a directive from, uh, from the Rebbe deShiluv to farbrengen. I'm gonna be here." But other than that... So that was very strong words, but it was said with a lot of love. But that was once or twice a year, but it was really a tremendous yachas as push- as teacher and child, uh, as, as teacher and student. So it was very, it was very, uh, wonderful growing up then. Everything was focused around the Rebbe and the leges farbrengen and, uh, you know, Shluchus was a very important fact, but it was a very important part of Lubavitch. It was just at the beginning of the Knusia Shluchim. It wasn't... The Rebbe didn't speak about Chabad houses and Shluchos that much. That only started in the mid-MEMs. So it was mainly focused about being in the Rebbe's yeshiva and being the Rebbe's dalal ramess and buying into the Rebbe's vision and program and learning and mefatsalim and, and so on. It was, for us, for us at least, those my age, it was the golden years. Yeah.

09:37 Speaker 2 Right. But a lot of that probably has to do with the fact that in general, people look back on life to their youth as golden years, and certainly if you're gonna talk about it in the context of, of the Rebbe, so the Rebbe passed away after that, so you're certainly looking at a, at a time that was, that has a lot of nostalgia connected to it. But-

09:56 Speaker 1 Mm.

09:56 Speaker 2 If we, if we, if we try to take-- If we try to go back in time, I wasn't there obviously. You're talking about years before I was born. But like, for example, in your years, Rebbe, uh, in your years already, the Rebbe had stopped doing Yechidus, right?

10:09 Speaker 1 Cor- I, I was in Yechidus for Bar Mitzvah.

10:12 Speaker 2 Right, but not for bochurim. But-

10:13 Speaker 1 No.

10:13 Speaker 2 Right.

10:13 Speaker 1 That's correct.

10:14 Speaker 2 Right. So at the time, I mean, even though like today people would say, "Well, no problem. I go back to the time where there's no Yechidus." But at the time, was there a feeling of distance of, you know, my father or my uncle or my older brother even, they had direct heroics. Rebbe knew exactly who they were. They, they felt like they were seen. Did-- Was that something that-

10:38 Speaker 1 That, that was a discussion, of course, because, uh, because of Yechidus ending. I think we all believed that the Rebbe knew who we were, who, who we are as individuals, and there were a lot of stories to back it up. Um, I think we were more focusing on how would we be if we had to have faced the Rebbe once a year and give a report, the state of how we're doing.

11:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

11:03 Speaker 1 And, you know, with, with, uh, without any, uh, you know, with, with-- When you walk into Yechidus, you present yourself the way you are, and we did not have that experience. And even though the Rebbe said again and again that a farbrengen takes the place of that, it's very hard for us to feel that.

11:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

11:19 Speaker 1 It was something you had to really work on to relate to. So it wasn't so much that we thought that the Rebbe was maybe a little more distant and didn't know us. It was where, where we responding. It's just like now. It's that, you know, the Rebbe's of course here with us. The question is how much we... It takes a lot more effort for us to tap into it. You could say the same thing in our days in comparison to the, to the days of Yechidus.

11:42 Speaker 2 The reason-

11:42 Speaker 1 It was-

11:42 Speaker 2 The, the reason I'm asking is because especially on the question of identity, you know, there's no question that so much of Lubavitch identity, especially with, with Darashvi is very tied in to, to the Rebbe, right? It's-

11:58 Speaker 1 Sure.

11:59 Speaker 2 You have less... And it seems like when you look back in Lubavitch history, the Chassidim had more of their own personal identities. You know, there were these big Chassidim, and there are stories about them. You had the Friediker Rebbe talking about Chassidim, right?

12:11 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

12:12 Speaker 2 There was a d- different dynamic where Chassidim had their identities. They came to the Rebbe once every 10 years. Like the Rebbe was a madrich. It, it's a very different setup, whereas in Darashvi, the identity is a lot more tied closely around the Rebbe, like what, what the Rebbe's saying, what's Rebbe asking us to do. What the, what each kuffa very often is, is defined by the stage in the Rebbe's life. Like the way even you just laid it out before, how much things changed with Hey Teves, the stalks that I would send. These are-

12:41 Speaker 1 Sure

12:41 Speaker 2 ... personal events in the Rebbe's life, and you're seeing that as a change in your life, right? So that's why I'm asking, you know, it's one thing when your identity's tied to the Rebbe, but there's a personal sense to it. You have Yechidus, Rebbe tells you to do X, Y. It's not just if the Rebbe knows who you are, but you, you, you know what the Rebbe wants from you in that moment. And then you go to a space where your identity is still very much revolving around the Rebbe, but it's, it's in a less personal way. Does that make sense?

13:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. So of course, with not having Yechidus, that definitely is something that was in our consciousness. It was not like we were not coming into the Rebbe's room giving a settle about what, where we are, you know. We kn- we know that Dan Holly used to give him reports, and we know from time to time the Rebbe, even in the memes, would react to the reports and would, uh, and so on. But, uh, you're absolutely correct about that. That was a big, uh, a big, uh, a big focus of what we spoke about and what we felt. But again, it was more from our perspective, where, where are we? Where would we be if we had Yechidus? And then realizing the Rebbe was really trying to drive home that you could be in the same place in the relationship if you work on it. I have a, in, in fact, uh, a good friend who wrote to the Rebbe. He's not a shliach Chabad. He's a very good friend of mine. Just like he, he really, uh, sincerely wanted to go on Yechidus, and he longed to have the experience of what the Bachum just maybe less than 10 years older than us had. And he wrote a letter to the Rebbe that he feels that he's lacking Yechidus, and if he had a one-on-one Yechidus, the relationship and his avoda would be greater. And the Rebbe wrote him back a letter, and it's a letter that now is already well-known. And the Rebbe writes

14:26 Speaker 1 to him that, "I'm surprised that it didn't come to you what I've said many, many times that, uh, Yechidus klalos is takes the place of Yechidus, and being that it's in a Bais Haknesses, a Bais Medrash, it has even more potency for the relationship." And so, uh, you know, a letter from the Rebbe came in the stationery. He wasn't in New York then. He was with me in South Africa at the time, together with, uh, Yidi as well. And the Rebbe sent him a letter like everybody else with his name, with the Rebbe signature. And, um, so I think the focus was more where, where, where we were in the relationship as opposed to the Bachum that were 10 years older than us. Um, and just interesting story. A friend of mine heard once, um, and I, and I went to check the video. They were farbrengen, I think it was Tachshumim Tes. They were in the sukkah all night, and the Bachum were talking about this very issue. Does the Rebbe really know? We know the Rebbe cares about us and, and, and what we're doing in our avoda, um, and how we're learning. But does the Rebbe know us personally like 15 years ago when there was Yechidus? So there was there a person from Kvachabad who had just come to the Rebbe for, this was Chalomait Sukkot. He had just come for Sukkot resembling Kastaya. And he said, you know, "I'm a chasid of the Rebbe, I'm a shliach of the Rebbe.

15:43 Speaker 1 I believe it all, but I, I can't believe that the Rebbe knows me personally as when I went in," and he said, you know, "Here I am, Moshe Ben Yitzchak, with these and these things." So when he was going by for Yechidus klalos, I, I saw the video. Out of nowhere, he, he... It's not a secret. He says his name is Moshe Edry. He was at that time from Kvachabad. He was working in Bet Sefer Malacha. He goes by the Rebbe, hundreds of people go by, and the Rebbe calls him back. And the Rebbe says, "You're Moshe Edry from Kvachabad." He says, Yeah, "And from Bet Sefer Malacha." He gives him an extra dollar and says, "To help with the hetes of your trip." So, uh, so the-

16:23 Speaker 2 But that's not... But, but, but here's a pro-

16:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:25 Speaker 2 I, I've heard that, I've heard these kind of stories growing up. Um, you know, and of course, they're extrapolated to after Gmar Talmud, it's the same thing. Yeah.

18:16 Speaker 1 The Rebbe had Yechidus with women, which previous Rebbe didn't have-

18:19 Speaker 2 Right, exactly

18:19 Speaker 1 ... and so on. There was-

18:20 Speaker 2 100%.

18:20 Speaker 1 Right, right.

18:21 Speaker 2 100%. And, and like, and you know, people would come in as children, then they'd come in as Bar Mitzvah Bachum-

18:26 Speaker 1 Right

18:26 Speaker 2 ... then they'd come in as Bachum-

18:27 Speaker 1 Right

18:27 Speaker 2 ... they'd come in as couples.

18:28 Speaker 1 Right.

18:28 Speaker 2 There was-- So that's for sure part of it. But- But there's also the sense where like once upon a-- not, not once upon a time, a generation before that, the Friediker Rebbe is talking about Chassidim, right? Chassidim are talking about Chassidim. And then it seems to just everything just begins to revolve solely around the Rebbe, right? Uh, and, and, and just even the very thing that we're talking about now where as Bochurim in the mems you're talking about how it used to be that we'd go into Yechidas, and what kind of difference that makes, right? That also shows like how much was connected to the personal-- It was-- it's not the personal even. How much was revolved around the Rebbe as it... Right? What, what do you think changed?

19:09 Speaker 1 So, uh, I'm not the, the big Bal Hashkafah here. You know, Rebbe explains the, the Skasas is not an Amtsi. It's not, uh, a, a means to an end. It's an end in itself, of course, with Avoda, with doing what we should be doing. That's way above my, uh, my pay grade to, to be able to explain the, the, the Hashkafa of it or the Hasbaha of it. The first thing we see is that the Rebbe focused more on his Skasas with the Friediker Rebbe more so than the other Rebbe. And what's interesting is that the Rebbe was much more guarded about speaking about himself. The Friediker Rebbe spoke about his life and stories that happened to him all the time, and he wrote about it all the time.

19:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

19:49 Speaker 1 And they're amazing, you know, narratives that he gave over from his own life. And the Rebbe was very guarded-

19:54 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

19:55 Speaker 1 ... much more private. But when it came to his relationship with the Friediker Rebbe and his Skasas, and if he heard something like how many times you heard the Rebbe, if I heard it from the, the Rebbe, that's, uh, that's all I need. That's it. We can, you know, that's the, the path paved that we can go on. I, I think the Rebbe spoke a lot more about Skasas than the previous Rebbe, so obviously that became ingrained in us. And, uh, if you wanna get into, uh, a little bit, uh, uh, more mystical things, you know, we talk about Malchus, uh, the, the seventh generation, which of course that we know the Rebbe said we are. And the seventh Sefirah is Malchus. And Malchus is, uh, we don't have that much on our own. In our own Avoda there's nothing so outstanding except that we're ready to receive what's coming from higher from us. I mean, it's just where our generation is. Now, the Rebbe, of course, emphasized this is Chabad. Think on your own, do on your own. I mean, from the beginning-- from the first Fabregin, uh, Yichvat right after the Maimer, you know, don't convince yourself anything that anybody's gonna do the work for you. Till the Moshiach campaign, you're gonna have to bring Moshiach, it's gonna have to be your... You're gonna have to say Ad Mosai. I really mean it. There's no question that the Rebbe didn't want we should just hang on his coattails. There's nothing the Rebbe wanted

21:07 Speaker 1 more than we should have stakes in this project, that we should feel it, we should make it. But all through Skasas through the lens of a Skasas, I mean-

21:15 Speaker 2 Mm

21:15 Speaker 1 ... it's, it is the beginning. Um, as far as after Gimmel Tammuz, for me, for sure it's a big challenge because when I had to in, in a way, you know, if I've come Shabbos to Fabregin and be 15 feet away from the Rebbe, and then once every few weeks say L'Chaim, and once every couple months go for a dollar, you have to keep yourself in check a little bit and keep yourself... It, it's an external motivation that's very strong. And I can't say that I fully... And we could have it now, but I'm not saying that I'm there. It's a big challenge for me. Um, but you have to see, it's just like Lubavitch itself, the Moises, you know, became apparent after Gimmel Tammuz that this thing is growing and growing and continuing to grow and continuing to expand with new challenges, which every, every living organism that's growing has challenges. That's self-understood. The same thing you see with the Bochurim where obviously we have more challenges today in our generation. Every Frum community has it, and we have it, and, and we can't put our head in the sand. We also have a lot of Bochurim that they feel they have-- that, that Skasas is very important to them.

22:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

22:22 Speaker 1 Their relationship with the Rebbe is very important to them, younger Bochurim and some older Bochurim, and not just from one stream, not just from Detroit or Boro Park, but from various Yeshivas in the middle. So there's some-- They're, they're feeling something. They're act-- They're, they're like it's, it's the-- Their, their excitement is to find some new Rebbe from the Rebbe, some new answer from the Rebbe, story from the Rebbe, and that's their enthusiasm. And, and it really, it's, it's really real to them. And, uh, for some people in my generation, even for myself sometimes it's a little bit hard to like, uh, you know, you're coming from a Zman of Ohr and you're getting excited about such a thing. But no, it's, it's, it's really real for them. I think they're really dealing with, with their relationship with the Rebbe. So I'm, I'm gonna say the proof is sometimes in the... The proof is not always in the lab. It's sometimes out there in the field when you see the way the Bochurim are.

23:17 Speaker 2 I mean, don't, don't get me wrong. I'm not, I'm not asking-- I'm not, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that there isn't, that there isn't some emissary here, you know. Uh, if, if, if I felt that there wasn't something valuable, I wouldn't be-

23:30 Speaker 1 Of course

23:30 Speaker 2 ... I wouldn't be that interested to figure out what to hold on to. You know what I mean? I mean, it's-- That, that's not, that's not, that's not at least for me the quest-- That, that's not for me the, the, the pressing, the pressing issue. But I mean, a couple of things in what you just said. I mean, you know, like the idea of Malchus, of course, I heard that when I was in Yeshiva and... But, but when we translate that into English, I mean, translate into like reality, um, it goes from being a very beautiful spiritual idea to if I was to translate to English, I would talk it-- I would talk about how impoverished we are spiritually, right? There's, there, there's, there's no... Essentially what it ends up being is you go from being, you know, you talked earlier how in your days you felt like you were Talmidim Talmidei. You go from there to being Avadim LeMelech or, or at the very best soldiers in an army, which by definition a soldier in an army is just a number. An army cannot operate if they're concerned about the individual as an individual. No army in the history of the world ever won with that kind of mindset. You have to be ready to throw millions or hundreds of thousands of soldiers on the beach and lose a third of them or more, right? That's the definition of an army. That's what makes an army so powerful, but that's what makes individuals so

24:51 Speaker 2 weak in a war or in an army, right? So when you talk about Malchus, on one hand, uh, it sounds, sounds beautiful, right? But when we translate it, it, it, it-- the flip side of it can be very, I don't know the word disturbing, but, but dispiriting where... So what does that mean? That means that our generation, um, we basically, we have nothing to ourselves. The best we can do is just not hang onto the coattails, but kind of halt enough. Well, what's the word? Halt enough-

25:20 Speaker 1 And clunk it

25:21 Speaker 2 ... Right. And it's-

25:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

25:22 Speaker 2 I mean, it, it feels like you cannot have it both ways, right? Like, so I understand what you're saying about how the Rebbe himself, um, you know, had an extraordinary kind of hiskashrus that's very hard to explain and like where it came from. Especially that the, that the Rebbe came from a family that wasn't particularly close to the Friediker Rebbe, right? Like, that, that was the history. There was a little bit of friction there, and the Rebbe didn't go to Tomchei Temimim, and it was much later on in his life. Maybe that's the reason. Who knows? But, uh, the, the hiskashrus is definitely very different.

25:55 Speaker 1 If I can, I can give you anecdotes-

25:57 Speaker 2 Sure

25:57 Speaker 1 ... just to, to get. So the Rebbe's father, the Rebbe's father and the Rebbe's family, I don't know if friction is the right word, but, uh, you know, the, the Rebbe says about his father, he was the greatest chassid of the Rebbe Rashab.

26:08 Speaker 2 Right.

26:08 Speaker 1 Of course, we, we understand with the Friediker Rebbe, uh, it was a little bit of a different situation at Chasam Sofer. We, we, it's be- I don't know, we don't understand, but there's things and why the Rebbe didn't see the Rebbe Rashab even till he was eighteen and why the Rebbe didn't go to Tomchei Temimim, whatever it was. Um, Avraham Mayer used to come here often, by the way. He used to-

26:29 Speaker 2 To New Orleans.

26:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, to New Orleans. He used to raise money for the yeshiva, and he used to come. And Zelig, uh, in fact, as an anecdote, one time, by the way, he was-- there was a Mardi Gras parade, and he was leaving Zelig Rifkin's house where he went to eat, and he was going to the place he was staying, and he passed by the parade, and he actually got a prize for his costume. You know the way he looked with his beard and his... So but anyway, Zelig told me that he once told him, he said, you know, he has-- he had a little bit of a different way of, of, of thinking of things. He says, "I'm trying to figure out the Rebbe obviously such a genius and a gaon olam with the whole philosophy in Ostroh when he came to Friediker Rebbe, and who was he taught by? His father. Gaon ha-Geonim, tzadik among tzadikim." And the Rebbe was very connected to his father and, and, and in other words, he didn't come as, he didn't come as first malachus to the Friediker Rebbe.

27:17 Speaker 2 Right.

27:17 Speaker 1 He was a complete, uh, tzaddik. And something happened where he connected to the Friediker Rebbe and became completely bottle, like the biggest chassid without any in the place of the Friediker Rebbe's even a hunch that's, you know, a, a, a, a, a half a minute by the previous Rebbes, by the Rebbe, you know, command. He was just saying, he said, "What happened?" He sometimes, you know, imagines himself what happened that the, the whole tzaddik that the Rebbe had, which was so important to his identity even later, but somehow everything was put aside to be a chassid first, hiskashrus. I'm just adding that in.

27:50 Speaker 2 That's fascinating.

27:50 Speaker 1 When you put into that-

27:51 Speaker 2 Uh, oh, it's good to-- Boruch Shekivanti. It's good to know that.

27:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

27:54 Speaker 2 It's good to know. I mean, even with all the family-

27:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, your fam-

27:57 Speaker 2 ...

27:58 Speaker 1 Your families didn't always get along.

27:59 Speaker 2 I think, I think-

28:00 Speaker 1 That was all, all in good spirit.

28:01 Speaker 2 I think at this point, at this point, we can all move on.

28:03 Speaker 1 I think so. I agree.

28:05 Speaker 2 There are big-bigger fish to fry.

28:06 Speaker 1 That's right.

28:07 Speaker 2 Um, but I-- So look, my question is not if it's right or wrong. Like you said before, it's above my pay grade to decide what should hiskashrus look like, what is it bechalal, what is it today, and what was it a hundred years ago. That's not the question. And anyway, we're not going back in time, so it's-

28:23 Speaker 1 Right

28:23 Speaker 2 ... it's kind of irrelevant.

28:24 Speaker 1 Right.

28:25 Speaker 2 But the question is more, what does that mean, right? Because we can dress it up in fancy Kabbalistic language, and I'm not suggesting that people are doing that to lie or to be deceptive, but there is a c- you can very quickly make a, a nice spiritual explanation to it. But I think we also have to face the reality that there's a flip side to it, which is as, as the focus is turned more and more to the Rebbe and, and, and, and your, your identity of a Lubavitcher is connected more and more to your relationship to the Rebbe, as opposed to your own avoda and your own tzaddik and your own, your own personhood, it does seem like that would lead to people becoming more part of a group that's surrounding the Rebbe, like an army around the general, and less individualized, less realized as individuals, and more impoverished as individuals, spiritually speaking. And then the question becomes, where does that lead?

29:24 Speaker 1 So there, there is obviously that's a lot of strength. Hiskashrus is a strength and, and, and the focus on the Rebbe we're talking about if it, uh, maybe to some people it's a crutch, but for most people it's a strength. But it does lead to certain places that are challenging or even problematic. For example, for those that emphasize I, I have no problem with a, a parent or a yeshiva focusing on the goal of all this should be the Rebbe's mention, be a shliach, and that's... However, when we, we, we make it that that is the only model of Lubavitch that is making, that's, um, it's, it's putting the Rebbe in a box that the Rebbe, uh, did not, I, I think want to be put in. Not that-- Believe you me, I'm very proud that our four married children are shluchas, and I'm sure they heard it even openly, but certainly, you know, they felt it that that would be wonderful. But, uh, they, they never heard from us that this is the only way.

30:22 Speaker 2 Mm.

30:22 Speaker 1 Because the Rebbe is a very, has a very, very big, uh, a very big tent, and it's real. There's no first tier and second tier. There's the shluchas to bring Mashiach, and the shluchas to bring Mashiach, it's a special privilege to be a shliach. But everybody has their role, and otherwise, the fact that the Rebbe told some people to take other paths is significant, and even more significant is the reality. The Rebbe is not the Rebbe of half of Chassidim or third of Chassidim. Everyone has their place in Lubavitch and in this mission, and there's only first tier. Is it a special privilege to be a shliach? Yes. Is it a nachas for me that my kids are shluchas? Yes. But if my child would be a Tsadikes HaBaal Habos with a mission and everything like that- That, and, and, and, and the rebbe's, what the rebbe wants is really at the forefront of the consciousness. That would be... That, that's not... That, that, the, this, these are Hasidim that are completely in tu- in tune with the rebbe. And then there's all kinds of other expressions. You know, there are some Hasidim... The fact that it's, Lubavitch is so diverse probably shows that with all of this kashrus, I'm not sure if this is purely what the rebbe had in mind, that it needs to be Chabad, and we have to use our own sechel and middos, and we, we have to take our own initiative, and it has to resonate with us. Uh,

31:41 Speaker 1 maybe we've, we've gone very broad. Okay. But, but the general idea, yeah, you know, for some people, they're, maybe they're not doing Chitas and Rambam, but you know what they're... If somebody offends the rebbe or puts down the rebbe, boy, they're gonna take it personally as if you offended their father. Or just how proud they are of the shluchus enterprise, as David Chase used to call it. Or they're, they're gonna send their kids to our mesivta or whatever it is, or they're gonna give tzedakah the way the rebbe said to give. There's many... The, the, in other words, the haskachas to the rebbe does take many forms.

32:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

32:14 Speaker 1 And it's not... And, and, and, and that also shows that we haven't lost our individuality completely. The haskachas is to pick ourselves up to a higher ideal, to be connected to the rebbe, but as the rebbe wanted, it should be each person and each community according to where they're at and according to their, you know, their personalities and, and their, their talents and their sheid Hashem, if you say. So there is, within, within haskachas there's many different ways it takes, it, it takes, you know, it takes shape.

32:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

32:48 Speaker 1 And it-

32:50 Speaker 2 What would you say is... You said if your child wasn't on shlichus and they were a chassidishe yid, what would you say would define them as a Lubavitcher? 'Cause when it comes to shlichus, shlichus is almost... In the question of Lubavitch identity, shlichus is a cheat code, right?

33:05 Speaker 1 It's a what?

33:05 Speaker 2 It's a cheat code. It's like it's a obvious answer.

33:07 Speaker 1 Right.

33:07 Speaker 2 I'm a shliach.

33:08 Speaker 1 Right.

33:09 Speaker 2 Period, end of story.

33:09 Speaker 1 Right.

33:10 Speaker 2 There was shlichim before going to towns, there's shlichim today.

33:12 Speaker 1 Right.

33:12 Speaker 2 My whole life revolves around doing the rebbe's mission.

33:15 Speaker 1 Right.

33:15 Speaker 2 It's, the answer is clear. Um, right? But once you're not on shlichus, what would you say would define someone as, as a, as a Lubavitcher chassid today?

33:26 Speaker 1 So I, I'm a little bit of a disadvantage 'cause I don't live in an Anash community, and it's not my, uh... it's not something I'm busy with every day. There's like the shlichim that have hundreds of, of Anash-

33:37 Speaker 2 So let me frame the question differently.

33:38 Speaker 1 ... in proximity.

33:38 Speaker 2 What would... You said you would be fine if one of your children was on shlichus, but was a chassidishe yid. What, what does that mean? What does that look like to you? That, that image.

33:45 Speaker 1 I, I made it very clear that it's a great nachas for us to have children on, on, on shlichus, but if it was a person of whatever reason, he, he was working, and he... Obviously, if it manifested himself that he's doing a- at least a page of Rambam and Chitas and, and he goes to farbrengens and he visits the, and, and they visit the ohel many times in the year, and they send their kids to our mesivtas and things like that, then it's not a question. I mean, the, the, the rebbe's directing their whole life. But I think that there's, there's different expressions of that as well. You know, we, we have this term of, um, uh... L- look, Lubavitch is a very broad place. There's a lot, a lot of different kinds of people. Like every frum community, we have a, a segment that the system's not speaking to them, you know, they're checking out, and that system's, and that, and that segment's not getting smaller. It's very painful. It's actually very scary as a parent, as a shliach, as a Lubavitcher. Now the fact that every frum community is dealing with it is, uh, chatzi nachama at best. Um-

34:46 Speaker 2 Tza- tza'ar eb nachama.

34:48 Speaker 1 Right. Okay. So, so it's, it's, it, it at least tells us that it's not, it's not something that we're doing, but it's something we all have to address. It's serious. And for sure-

34:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

34:56 Speaker 1 ... if there's something that's not giving the rebbe rest, it's these, these kids that are, are, uh, are, are, are not... the system's not speaking to them at best. And we know in, in, in, in my days if somebody checked out of the system, uh, maybe this is stereotypical 'cause it's, it's not hu- It wasn't 100% then either. Often it was a person that was having issues with their parents, or their parents were either not, uh, not loving enough or trying to shove chassidishkeit down their, down their, their, their throats. And today we understand that it's a, it's totally not the situation.

35:27 Speaker 2 I mean-

35:28 Speaker 1 The best loving-

35:29 Speaker 2 Some people understand that. Some people claim punk the opposite, and I agree with you.

35:33 Speaker 1 I, I see many loving, normal, well-adjusted families where th- this is the reality of, of today. It's a scary and painful reality. And, um, I, I went all the way to that very painful thing because I'm, I'm a, I'm a, you know, uh, I'm... my head is not in the sand. You know, when I see-- When I check in on one of the Chabad websites every few days and I see this, uh, 20-year-old Lubavitcher suddenly passed away, it goes through my mind: Was it op- Was, was it a drug? Was it a, a overdose?

36:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:04 Speaker 1 Was it, was it something that they took their own lives? And, and what's the difference? The pain for the p- you know, it is because the, uh, the pain for the parents could be even more 'cause they start second-guessing themselves.

36:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:16 Speaker 1 Which as we know today that's not, not, not true. But that doesn't matter-

36:20 Speaker 2 Right

36:20 Speaker 1 ... what the truth is. So, so we have that aspect as well, and the rebbe's not resting, and we can't rest. But that is one very ex- It's where the world is today. It's not where it was 20 years ago. It's not where it was 50 years ago. But you have so many, so many grades of people in the system. They're in the rebbe system. It expresses itself in different ways. I had... There's an anecdote I had. I was in, uh, Tel Aviv for Shabbos this summer. Now-

36:49 Speaker 2 Ah, I met you in the airport on the way.

36:51 Speaker 1 Yeah, could be. I came... When I landed in Atlanta. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:53 Speaker 2 I met you in Atlanta.

36:53 Speaker 1 I was on the way back. I think I was on the way or on the way back. I don't-

36:55 Speaker 2 You're on the way, you're on the way there.

36:56 Speaker 1 On the way. Okay, you remember. So, uh, I was probably rushing to my plane.

37:00 Speaker 2 No, you were, you were not coming off an international flight.

37:03 Speaker 1 Okay.

37:04 Speaker 2 You were coming-

37:05 Speaker 1 I didn't look like a zombie.

37:06 Speaker 2 No.

37:06 Speaker 1 So 'Cause I spent Shabbos in Tel Aviv. And, you know, there's a lot going on now in Tel Aviv, but that's for a separate discussion what, what I experienced at Shabbos. But Sh- I was in a place called Chabad of the Coast. Very nice place. A lot of young Americans or, or young i- from Eng- uh, English-speaking people from different, different, diverse groups coming there. Maybe a couple of hundred young people, the Shluchim are doing a great job. There were also at least 20 p- at least 20 people from Lubavitch, uh, men and women who were people who had struggled with the system, had gone out a little bit and somewhat come back. They come there regularly for s- they feel at home over there, and it's wonderful. So I was there the Shabbos before Gimmel Tammuz. So there's one, one fellow and his friend. His friend is in Yerushalayim. They were both in the army together. His friend is with the Kapota and he's, he's definitely with the program. They were in the army together. He, he tell, as soon as we sit down, they, they came to speak to me 'cause they wanna hear a Shliach, what a Shliach has to say the Shabbos before Gimmel Tammuz. Already he's... So the one t- so the fellow who, who lives in Tel Aviv says, "You know, I just wanna tell you I'm not Orthodox." Uh, I, I think he said, "I'm not, I'm not Frum. I just want you to know." Right? So, uh,

38:17 Speaker 1 we're having this beautiful conversation, this beautiful conversation. Then the friend from Yerushalayim who's obviously with the program says, "I just wanna say one thing about my friend. He says he's not Frum, and, and that's true, but you should know that it's already seven years that he puts on Tefillin e- every, almost, I don't know, at least almost every day. And it's already, uh, two years that he comes here almost every Shabbos." He say, the, and, and he, and, and the fellow from Tel Aviv said, "Yeah, I can't go two weeks without being at the Chabad house here." And so he's not, you know, just keep that in perspective. He says he's not Frum, but, uh... So then this fellow from Tel Aviv tells me, this young Lubavitcher, he says, "Yeah, truthfully, I'm not as non-Orthodox as I was seven years ago. There's no question about it."

39:01 Speaker 2 Yeah.

39:01 Speaker 1 So we have, we're very, very, uh, there's a lot going on on a lot of different levels. And those who, who can see, feel the Rebbe's, uh, awes to everyone can, can appreciate that the, I mean, the, again, these are all for ready. These are areas of with people that are, that had trouble with the system. Alas kam vekamah, in the system you have all kinds of, uh, groups of people who they, they might not be Shluchim, and they might, the, the shirt that they're wearing might not look like mine, but that's, come on, these are, these are Hasidim. They come every Shabbos to schul. They have some l'chaim. They wanna know what it means as the Shabbos before Gimmel Tammuz or how do you get ready as Lubavitch for Rosh Hashanah. And it, there's a lot, there, there's a, there's this kashrus, this connection, but it taking a lot of forms, a lot of, of individuals and especially of, of niches, of groups in different ways.

39:53 Speaker 2 So-

39:53 Speaker 1 I, I see the cup as more than half full, uh, uh-

39:56 Speaker 2 Oh, no, I, I, I'm not, I'm not tr- I'm not trying to push you into a pessimistic corner, and-

40:01 Speaker 1 Of course

40:01 Speaker 2 ... the truth is, as I get older, you know, um, a lot of people, at least for me, per- people that knew me predicted I'd get more pessimistic just based on my personality. And the truth is I, I, I get less pessimistic because I think a lot of pessimism comes from, comes from expecting too much or, or, or wanting too much. And so you're, you know, you're inevitably gloomy about that happening. And then you realize, well, life's a little bit more complicated, and maybe your, your ideals or what you like idealistically is ridiculous to begin with. You have to understand there's more at play. Um, maybe that's what it is. I don't know. But I'm not trying to, I'm certainly not trying to push you-

40:42 Speaker 1 Sure

40:42 Speaker 2 ... into a pessimistic corner. The question, though, is-

40:45 Speaker 1 I feel you are, so.

40:47 Speaker 2 Okay, good. The question, though, is, um, you know, where does this lead? Because as people really fragment and you say like, look, you know, here's a Lubavitcher who l- his i- his, he still has a shaichus in some form. We don't really understand it necessarily, but something is pulling him back. You know, something's pulling him back to come to schul. Um, this person doesn't keep kosher, but he, he still feels a connection to something he learned in yeshiva. I mean, the- there, there are all kinds of-

41:19 Speaker 1 Right

41:20 Speaker 2 ... different shapes. There's cer- there's no question that from what I can tell, that even 30 years ago, someone left, they pretty much left. It was, the, the door was more one way. Like, once you walked out, it was very hard to come back in. And you walked out with more of a, with more of, like, a conviction that I'm not, I'm not part of this anymore. Whereas today, for good or for, or for worse, people are, people are, you know, I don't have to leave entirely. I could leave part of it. I could still stay. I could keep some connection. I could... You know, so, so things are certainly more fluid. Like they, like, like they like to say, uh, Blushei, you know, Kad Ma Yirgi, more, more fluid. But where does that lead? At some point that, that makes it harder and harder to say what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher? Because, well, if that person's a Lubavitcher and that person's a Lubavitcher and their lives look so f- so different, what does that word mean, right? So I feel like the only thing that you could say is, well, they both go to 770 once a, once, at least once a year, right? Or they both love the Rebbe or something like that. But that leads us back to our earlier question. Is that really an identity, or is that just holding on to the Rebbe's identity, right?

42:36 Speaker 1 That's a great question. Um, definitely y- you know, in the, in the, in the golden, in the golden era, in the good old days, so wherever a bachur learned, he ended up in 770. And so, so there was that common thing, you know, in the last few year, the last year or two as a bachur you were in 770, or you went through the same, uh, similar situations. Um, today it's not necessarily the case. It is... That's a great question where it leads because on one aspect you could say, what do we all have in common? On the other hand, you know, the Rebbe, nobody was as clear about so many issues as, as, as the Rebbe. And although probably you need to be a resembling of Tanya to be able to live up to every one of those, you know, to make a suffer, to increase in something good at each time in this suffer. But if we're generally trying to take direction from the Rebbe's life, and like the Rebbe would always say, if we're moving forward, then that is a very active connection to the Rebbe. And hopefully, and one has to realize that they do have to connect with other Hasidim. You're right, there's a lot of... It-- And we don't-- We're not gonna all have common experiences now. We're not even gonna have a common view of, of what the Rebbe means to us. But the two things that are most important is the, the one, one is an important

43:58 Speaker 1 as to which way you're heading to, but another person is, uh, uh, another point is that you really can't do it alone. You have to connect with other Hasidim. Other Hasidim on your level, other Hasidim a little bit more inspired. That's why you have a Rav, a Chaver, and, and other Hasidim that are maybe not as inspired as you. Everybody needs to, to be part of, of some kind of community. Um, that's what I feel. I feel it's really important. And, and you know, you have today with the cl- I, I love the clash shuls and Crown Heights. I think it's a great thing.

44:26 Speaker 2 Really?

44:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. I just think-

44:28 Speaker 2 Why?

44:28 Speaker 1 Because again, because it gives every... A lot of people that would slip completely out are part of a community. They have friends that they say l'chaim with, and, uh, many of them come for davening, not all but it, it, it gives them a sense of belonging. Um, uh, you know, obviously, if we didn't have this and people were in larger places or in different places or mixing with older Hasidim or some more people, seven seventy or by the oil on Shabbos, would there be advantages to that? Yeah. But I think on, on, on the, on the w- on the whole, it's an advantage. It has a lot more people involved. And you see, because when I'm in Crown Heights, I often daven at these shuls. You see the camaraderie, and that goes a long way. And y- And in some way, the camaraderie is connected to our identity as Lubavitchers. It is different. It's not the same. Not only 'cause l'chaim is there, it's not the same as in other communities, you know. And-

45:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's no question. There's no question that there, there's, there, there's something holding people together.

45:21 Speaker 1 Right.

45:21 Speaker 2 A lot of it is social, a lot of it is a shared family, uh, shared families. We know each other growing up.

45:27 Speaker 1 Right.

45:28 Speaker 2 Um, but there's, there's, there's so many layers to that. Some of them are more, let's say, substantial, sort of substantive than others. But there's certainly a lot of connective tissue there. And, and, and a lot-- That's why a lot of people hold onto it, even if they feel less and less compelled to for, let's say, religious reasons, but they feel like for a social reason they wanna hold onto it.

45:50 Speaker 1 Right.

45:50 Speaker 2 But l- let, if, if-

45:52 Speaker 1 But that, that, that's true. 100% true. But there are also a lot of people in, in this situation who are not so involved or in, in their... You know, they don't look at themself as someone who's like, uh, uh, either you call Machsidsher Yungerman or somebody who's like motivating. But today, more and more people are, are, are, are going to cl- even the Famanashke, to class once a week with their friends, hear what the Rebbe said, or want to hear a vort, want somebody come to farbreng with them when you're in the pagua, you know. It, it, it, the, the connection is one where they're, it's not just social. And, uh, again, I'm not... I'm saying this as really someone from a distance, so I might be off. I, I wanna add one other per-

46:31 Speaker 2 Sure.

46:31 Speaker 1 Go for it.

46:31 Speaker 2 No, no, no. Go for it.

46:32 Speaker 1 One other perspective which we didn't bring up, and really it's, it's very painful and it doesn't have to be elaborated just to mention, to be mentioned here. One of... And I don't feel you're directing me in a, in a pessimistic way at all, but a part of my optimism also comes in because after Gimel Tammuz was a very traumatic time for us.

46:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:48 Speaker 1 On many, many levels. The split in Lubavitch was real, it was intense, it was almost total. And you know, some of the, some of the remnants of that, that affect us all there. By that time, it was very, very difficult. It looked almost as if it's, uh, splitting apart and, and you know, it started with the Moshiach issue, but we know it was, it was not, that was not the only issue.

47:10 Speaker 2 And we also know it didn't start with that. There were fights before this.

47:13 Speaker 1 There were fights before. You know, I, I wa-

47:15 Speaker 2 Pretty much along the same identical lines.

47:17 Speaker 1 I wanna mention your Zayde and, and one thing that Avraham Shem Tov, of course, um, a speech he gave and, uh... You know, the Rebbe made him the head of, uh, the most important Chabad organizations, and he doesn't come with a whole, uh, organization like some of the other leaders. He doesn't have a whole infrastructure. But he has, uh, the Rebbe of course knew what he was doing. I'm gonna tell you a speech that he gave that really was very, very a, a moment of almost turnaround in Lubavitch. We had a very big split, and among the Meshichist group, there were some who were very, uh, I identified for many years as a Meshichist and, um, and I'm not sure I still had conversion therapy. I still... You know, you know, it, it wa- it wa-- But there were definitely, there were e- a lot of excesses, and a lot of excesses that had a lot of repercussions for consequences for our Hasidim. There were some people that were out there. And then at, at the first few years, together with the split in Lubavitch, when there's such a strong split, your opponents see the opportunity. So there was a very strong movement to ban, and only Lubavitcher that will clearly state what his opinion is on this issue can be a shochet, can be a mashgiach, he can even talk to, can be considered for a minyan. That's gone now completely, but there was a lot of pushback.

48:36 Speaker 2 Yeah, I remember. I w- I'm old enough to remember.

48:37 Speaker 1 Okay, you're old enough to remember. Your Zayde got up by Kinus Hashlachim, and we know that your Zayde was personally supportive of the Vaad Rabbonim Chabad, uh, uh, announcements of, of what's correct to do with the Rebbe and what things are not correct, and they were, they were very clear, even if they didn't put it in every newspaper, they did, they did in some, of, of what they thought of those who were very, uh, th- those who were very radical. Your Zayde got up and he directly r- responded to this call of these people, and he said, "We'll deal with it internally. We don't need you to dictate to us as to who's a Lubavitcher and who's not a Lubavitcher, who's a Frummied and who's not a Frummied, who can be trusted, uh, far hashgacha, whose, whose wine you can drink and whose wine you can't drink. We'll deal with it internally. We can handle it. Lubavitch is, is, is, can, can deal with it." And I think, you know, you never wanna give too much import-- And, and it's not about a single speech. Some of the ex- excess still, you know, could be on, on different sides in Lubavitch, but compared to what it was, we're much more one movement and one family now than we were in a revealed way, in an open way, than we were 30 years ago. And I think that was, uh, to me, that was very comforting. We're not gonna go into a civil war in public.

49:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:55 Speaker 1 And we're not gonna just take a third of Lubavitch or 40%, 50% of Lubavitch say, "You're out, we're out, you're in, you're in." We're gonna deal with this, and we're gonna grow, and we're gonna build. And we're not always gonna agree, and we're not even always gonna agree on, on, on, on, you know, what's, what's acceptable or not, But we're gonna, we're gonna persevere, and we're gonna build. And I think, uh, I think we've made tremendous strides in that regard. There's, uh, a lot less division than there was. I'm talking about in a global about scale. I mean, almost there was-

50:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

50:29 Speaker 1 ... there was different ˈmeisters and different yamim toivim that they kept, and different... Everything was like, it was like, it was, like, so crazy. That's not there now anymore.

50:37 Speaker 2 Yeah. Families didn't marry each other. Uh-

50:39 Speaker 1 Right

50:39 Speaker 2 ... f-families didn't talk to each other.

50:41 Speaker 1 Like you said, I think we've moved on, like you said before, yeah.

50:43 Speaker 2 Right.

50:43 Speaker 1 For the most, for the most part.

50:44 Speaker 2 For the most part. I mean, time, time does heal.

50:48 Speaker 1 Right.

50:48 Speaker 2 Time does heal. No, and, and I think you're... I, I think I can agree with that, that, that on, on, uh, certainly on, on, on, on that level, on that level, um, a lot of the, the reasons for division have seemed to go away, and people are, you know, fart this guy is somebody I identify with.

51:08 Speaker 1 Right.

51:08 Speaker 2 Um, so why would I look at, why would I look at that o- that, that other stuff? And in terms of a common identity, that's probably... Not probably, that's certainly a hopeful thing.

51:17 Speaker 1 Correct.

51:18 Speaker 2 Um, yeah. I, I, I, I, I... It cert- it certainly, it's certainly not gloomy, but I think, I think... Look, I, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna keep on going this theoretical direction of, of what I- what this identity will h- will end up being because we don't really know. None of us know. But let's, let's, let's circle back for a little bit, um, to what it was, to what it was because... And let's try to demystify it a little bit. You know, it's very easy to say back in the day in '70, '70, the gold- the golden years. I'm not saying that, that... I, I don't believe you that that's how you feel. But in the time, we're s- we're, you know, I'm sure there were ups and downs.

52:01 Speaker 1 Of course.

52:01 Speaker 2 Tuesday was Tuesday, Wednesday was Wednesday.

52:03 Speaker 1 Of course.

52:04 Speaker 2 You know, you, you s- you mentioned a line ear- a line earlier that, that, you know, to, to, to, to listen to every hareid of the Rebbe, to follow every hareid of the Rebbe is, is like, is impossible 'cause Rebbe expected so much. I heard a story. I don't know if it was about you. Was, was the story about you, like two days-

52:22 Speaker 1 No

52:22 Speaker 2 ... before Shavuos? Who was that about you? Who was that about? Do you know who it was?

52:24 Speaker 1 Now what's the story? Tell.

52:25 Speaker 2 About, about Rebbe talk- saying to learn for, for, for Shir HaShirim-

52:31 Speaker 1 Saying for like the same one time

52:32 Speaker 2 ... and like a, and like a couple years, a couple days before, before Shavuos, two Bochurim hadn't learnt it.

52:37 Speaker 1 It was not me .

52:38 Speaker 2 Who was it?

52:38 Speaker 1 I don't know.

52:39 Speaker 2 You know, you heard the story.

52:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. So what's the, another one-

52:41 Speaker 2 So now, so, so now Rebbe-

52:42 Speaker 1 What's the punchline?

52:42 Speaker 2 ... coming to New Orleans. No, no, no. I'm kidding. No, I, I think me- I th- I heard, I heard a story from somebody it was about a ˈnemes, but there's only you and your brother, right?

52:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's-

52:51 Speaker 2 And your other brother's older.

52:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's not, it's probably not him either.

52:53 Speaker 2 Maybe the story never happened.

52:54 Speaker 1 Okay. Well, what's the story? Remind me.

52:56 Speaker 2 No. That the Rebbe said to learn -

52:57 Speaker 1 With a couple of days

52:58 Speaker 2 ... for Shir HaShirim, and it was only a few days before Shavuos.

53:01 Speaker 1 Okay, and-

53:01 Speaker 2 So a couple of Bochurim sat down and learned the whole... Like two Bochurim sat down and learned the whole in two days, three days. I think I heard about you, so maybe the story never even happened, or maybe it was about another Bochur. But to me, that was just an illustration of, of like, you know, there's sometimes Rebbe would say things where it's like... I mean, there are stories where things did-

53:18 Speaker 1 Seemed impossible

53:18 Speaker 2 ... like we have to print a, a in three, three weeks and-

53:22 Speaker 1 Mm

53:22 Speaker 2 ... or do this. I mean, you talk, you brought my grandfather. I mean, the stories I heard from him about Washington, D.C., like do this, do that. Like-

53:29 Speaker 1 Seemed impossible at the time.

53:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it-

53:31 Speaker 1 That was the question

53:32 Speaker 2 ... and sometimes they were. Those stories get less press, but sometimes it didn't happen. Um, you know, or the person wasn't able to make it happen. But what was it like, what was it like to-- 'Cause I was reading the other day a letter from Nechama Gryzman. Actually, there was a book printed of her, of her, of her writings, and most of it wasn't exactly stuff that I was interested in reading, to be honest. But there was this one letter that I think, I think she... It ended up getting published, I don't remember, but she was hesitating to publish it or not 'cause she didn't want it to seem like she was being negative or kvetching. But she was like, it was almost like a letter written to the Rebbe, but written in a magazine where like, "I wish... You know, I'm, I'm a mother giving birth to a bunch of children. I have a large family. I- as it is, I'm overwhelmed. Now I'm pregnant, and then on my way to the hospital, my husband tells me about a new mitzvah, and like, can I have a moment, please? And would there, it would be so great if they would tell me when I can take some time off."

54:33 Speaker 1 Time off.

54:33 Speaker 2 And I was like, yeah. So, like people, people were ident- people were not angels back then, right? So what was it like back then to just... I- I'm trying to see how I could frame it as a question. Like, like describe a little bit, describe a little bit maybe the tension between being a regular Bochur growing up. Your sons are Bochur in 770 now, so you have a reminder of some of the, of some of the-

55:02 Speaker 1 Mm

55:02 Speaker 2 ... you know, the t- the, the limitations of a Bochur and this figure of a Rebbe who's demanding so much. What was that like?

55:12 Speaker 1 So I th- I think the main tension, if you're a ˈchsidish Bochur, which I probably was considered a ˈchsidish Bochur, whatever that means, the main tension really becomes when you get married and you go out into the world and you have to accept... N-not only for your work. You, you, you know, you become part of Olam HaZeh a little bit. It was very clear the Rebbe's vantage point is only Hashem. You know, you are not created only to serve the . I mean, when you hear the Rebbe saying, "It's not a you're created to serve Hashem. You're not here other than to serve Hashem." Again, only hear it, and, and you hear that again and again, it becomes, uh, it's pretty absolute. And, uh, you know, and, and, and, and you hear, you know, the Rebbe never took a vacation. Is it on our level? Not much, but you know, every second has to be used. And of course, we don't live up to that, and we have a et cetera, et cetera. When you get married, then you start realizing that of course these are all truisms, but you have to do certain... You know, part of your avodas Hashem has to be to take care of yourself, to take care of your family, to relate to other people.

56:17 Speaker 2 L'shav es ha'tzara.

56:18 Speaker 1 L'shav es ha'tzara, which... So, so that's where the tension really comes in. So-

56:22 Speaker 2 There was no... There was... One second, I have to interrupt you. There was no, there was no tension as a bachur. Like looking back, there was no te-

56:27 Speaker 1 There was tension as a bachur maybe that we f- that I fell short of this ideal, but the ideal, like, like how do you do the-

56:33 Speaker 2 There was no, like, tension the Rebbe expects me to learn niglah, chassidis, and, and the Rebbe spoke in such extr- Like I remember there was this I don't know. So, so you could say there was tension. Um, there were very great expectations. Maybe there was some tension. The Rebbe at the same time always was, uh, so fatherly and so loving, you know. And, uh, you know, you felt very uplifted around the Rebbe even with your imperfections. You came to farbrengen, you came out feeling uplifted. Whether you know that week you didn't, uh, live up to... Y- you just each week we tried to do at least what the Rebbe said the week before, and there was some tension 'cause you couldn't even sometimes- Keep up

57:45 Speaker 1 ... live up to that. But if you made a genuine effort and you, um, and, and you came the next week to farbrengen, you were uplifted again. So it's hard to, uh, it's hard to say. You know, there, there's no question that it's a very absolute, uh, Chabad is a very absolute Hashkafa. It's a very total Hashka h- h- It's accepting of everyone. Matan, it should be Matan Emet, really have Avas Hasitro and see the ma'alos, see the qualities and the goodness and, and, and the ma'alos in each person and the goodness in everything at the, and, and the same time. It's pretty intense philosophy. It's pretty total.

58:23 Speaker 2 Yeah.

58:24 Speaker 1 So there's always gonna be tension. And, uh, if I, if I-

58:27 Speaker 2 Especially the Rebbe's philosophy.

58:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, no question. So if, if a bachur was a little bit nervous, there were some bachurim that were a little bit, uh, nervous just 'cause of that, so that's taka that they needed to relax a little bit. See, you see today I think the, on the whole yeshiva-

58:41 Speaker 2 But how did you... But I, I think it's a very important point 'cause h- 'cause it, it, it has a lot of ramifications to today. How did you... It's, 'cause on one hand it's much easier, I'm a Lubavitcher, yeah, I'm a little bit of a

1:02:14 Speaker 1 Within the context of being able to be a Hasid for 24 hours a day, it's not a studa, you know, just like you take a break to take, you know, all Bachurim take naps in the middle of the day, you know for 20 minutes. Say you'll go swimming for twen- half hour a day. It's-

1:02:28 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:28 Speaker 1 ... so that, we didn't have that. The truth is we were very intense in that way. But again, it, it worked for most of us. It worked for most of us. We were, you know, in the Alter Rebbe-

1:02:38 Speaker 2 There was no sense of inadequacy, of like, of, of-

1:02:42 Speaker 1 Oh, sure. Sure there was. I remember-

1:02:44 Speaker 2 I mean, the, the, you know- ... the Rebbe was up here talking-

1:02:46 Speaker 1 No, there's no question

1:02:46 Speaker 2 ... about, talking about, I mean, uh-

1:02:48 Speaker 1 And especially young people. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? I'm n- now that you're, uh, you're jarring my memory I remember one Shmini Atzeres Kitzur we were sitting in farbrengen with, uh, the staff of Alter Rebbe. Remember I had some L'chaim.

1:03:00 Speaker 2 Just right.

1:03:00 Speaker 1 Um, yeah.

1:03:01 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:03:01 Speaker 1 We were farbrengen with the, with our yeshiva, the staff of Alter Rebbe. I was probably 16, and of course there was certain intensity, exactly the feelings you had. So I remember I was speaking to, by the farbrengen, it was already, you know, it was after some L'chaim, and it was already, it was already like 3:00 in the morning, and I expressed some of these frustrations that you expressed. And Ephraim Pokarsky was our menal, said, "You know, uh, you're sitting in the stands in Yankee Stadium, and, uh, the Yankees won a World Series, and you're sitting there and saying, 'But wait a second, my shirt, my shirt just tore.'" He said, "You know, it's Shmini Atzeres Kitzur, the Rebbe's healthy. Forget your issues." That's one way of they dealt with it. And, and-

1:03:40 Speaker 2 But I don't, but I don't like that answer. I don't know if it... Do you like that answer?

1:03:42 Speaker 1 If it's not acute, it, it works if it's not chronic or acute. If it's, and it probably wasn't that deep in me. Um, do I like it? It has its place. It's definitely not a full, it's, it's not the best way to address it.

1:03:53 Speaker 2 Like you're just, you're just pushing it all onto the Rebbe.

1:03:55 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:55 Speaker 2 It's like I, I feel inadequate, and it's like-

1:03:57 Speaker 1 Right

1:03:57 Speaker 2 ... just party.

1:03:58 Speaker 1 Just, just, just get above it. Yeah, it, it, it works, it works in some cases, but for sure it doesn't work. I think to, i- i- and I don't know all members on the whole, many members on the whole today have, uh, are, are trained or, or realize the importance of being able to relate to each person where they are. Maybe because the Rebbe swept us all up, Dan Holla just kept, you know, very general. If somebody had a specific problem, you know, I told you Pokarsky what he told me about farbrengen at 2:00 in the morning. But if I came to a member of Dan Holla with a personal problem, they would give me the time of day. They would... But they weren't, uh, proactively, uh, you know, they weren't, uh... The opinion was the one person whose job was to call you over once every, every few. He's like, "Well, what I thought of opinion." "Vigate this, how's it going, Baruch Hashem. You learning?" "Yeah." "You da- uh, you feel you can learn more?" "Yeah." "You davening? You know, keep it up whatever." Or, or, or L's there.

1:04:53 Speaker 2 I mean, I, I, I guess, I guess-

1:04:54 Speaker 1 There wa- there wasn't ever such a personal yachas between Dan Holla and the Bachurim unless you really, really asked for it.

1:05:00 Speaker 2 So you're saying, you're saying today the Dan Holla has to be more aware of the Bachurim-

1:05:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:05:05 Speaker 2 ... and can't just rely on the-

1:05:07 Speaker 1 Trend watch

1:05:07 Speaker 2 ... on the, on the tide lifting up all boats.

1:05:10 Speaker 1 Correct. Well said.

1:05:12 Speaker 2 But so, so, so to make the, to make the, the question a little bit sharper, a few more minutes. To make the question a little bit sharper, you know, it wasn't just Bachurim dealing with the Rebbe's herois. It was also American boys dealing with, dealing with, dealing with... Like, did you feel at all that, you know, Lubavitch, not just the Rebbe, but, but the Alter Chassidim and, and, and the stories of Lubavitch from Amal and, um, you know, what Amal was like, and you have these Chassidim that talk about Amal in the old Tenichot Mimim and, uh, and back then and back then. I'm sure there was, I'm sure there was a back then, back then as well, right?

1:05:55 Speaker 1 Of course. Of course.

1:05:56 Speaker 2 You know, and you're here in America. Did you ever feel like you're not talking our lingo, you're not talking our language? Like, like this is not, this is not us. Like, you know, this big, these big oydzim and Tenichot Mimim, that's just not who we are or...

1:06:11 Speaker 1 Well, the, that's another very good question. So we had Alter Chassidim around, Rabbi Mendel and many others. I mean, not as many as there were f- you know, 15, 20 years ago when, uh, Ben Tzemach was alive or Shmuel Evden or whatever. But, uh, we had, uh, many Alter Chassidim. Um, most of them, I probably, we, I probably even... Again, I was considered a Chassidishe Bachur. I probably had trouble relating to a lot of what they were saying as an American, as one. I liked a little bit sports and whatever. Now Mendel had a certain... First of all, he was so, he was such a celebrity for, for, for all the right reasons, and he had, he was so warm, and he could tell a joke, and he could, uh... And he can, uh, he, he, he always, it, it, he really captured our imagination a little bit. But many of the older Chassidim, not as if we, we, they didn't irritate us, but yeah, we felt like it's, you know, you're not talking to us to some extent. You asked me the question, let me give you honest answer. But-

1:07:09 Speaker 2 I'm not surprised, I'm not surprised by that answer.

1:07:11 Speaker 1 Right. So it was those days already then, and they were, they were, they were very good people. They were sincere. They were not speaking down to us. They were speaking 'cause from their experiences and what they went through. And I, I, I realized i- if I went to yeshiva today and I started speaking, uh, very possible I won't relate to where the Bachurim are in the, in this, in the, because they're, they're... And that's what Dan Holla's job is, to, to really know where the Bachurim are on the one hand and to lift them up. Yeah.

1:07:33 Speaker 2 So how did you deal, how did you deal with that as a Bachur growing up? How did, how did you deal with that, like, where there's this almost like they're Lubavitchers, they're the Alter Chassidim, they're, they're, they're like, they're sitting behind their bed farbrengen, or maybe that, that was the thing. They're sitting, they're not standing.

1:07:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:50 Speaker 2 They're Perussim. No, I, I don't, I don't suspect you of that kind of nonsense, but-

1:07:54 Speaker 1 No

1:07:54 Speaker 2 ... but yeah, they're the white beards sitting by the Rebbe, right? And they're giving their heichals and, and so on, but they're not talking my language. Like-

1:08:02 Speaker 1 Right

1:08:02 Speaker 2 ... was there, was there a question of maybe you didn't think of it in terms of identity 'cause the world wasn't yet so engrossed in, in the, these questions, but do you, uh, was there ever, was there a feeling of like, like, you know, like what kind-

1:08:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, some of it the Rebbe, some of it we looked up to them for good reason. We knew that they, what they had done, the, the path they paved before us. Really, you know, it's somebody like Rapinya. You know, Rapinya was a very important, uh, person in my life. I had many years with it. I think that I could relate to Rapinya, he could relate to me. He was in a different world, but I know he cared. And for many years, I, I, you know, I definitely gained from him. Um, even though he... It was in a different way. You know, like in a Biel you can gain the actual titan and, and a Mendel, the actual giving over the message. But Rapinya was like, uh, a dukmachaya, you know?

1:08:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:55 Speaker 1 But I didn't think he could relate to me personally. You know, I heard that at the end of his life, by the way, he used, used to stop guys who were like, uh, for lack of a better word, a little bit Labavich-like, and invite them into his house. And he, uh, his last 10 years of his life, he started relating suddenly to all kinds of younger people and, and, and you know what? Because he was a real, you know, a real Hasid. But, uh, I didn't think he could relate to me, but it didn't, uh, I can't say it bothered me. Some of the other Hasidim, they were, they were who they were, and, and the Rebbe lifted us up. Some of it we had pride, like, you know, they're better than us in some ways, and we're Data Shvi. You know what? They don't know how to do hufsaim, we know how to do hufsaim, you know. We could get three kakafas in Fifth Avenue, Manhattan. They can't do it, you know, most of them or they... So it's a mix, a mix of both. It's not that we d- Y- yeah, a lot of them w- we was, we couldn't relate to, and some we were able to, and some we looked up to, to an extent, you know, even if we didn't.

1:09:48 Speaker 2 So, so, so-

1:09:49 Speaker 1 They didn't, many of them didn't speak our language even then, so let's put it that way.

1:09:56 Speaker 2 Does that, does that give you, does that give you... Looking back now that we're... Like, to, to, to, to bring it back full circle, looking back and seeing how when you were growing up in 770, there was already then a different kind of divide or, or, or, or distance between the Lubavitch that you were experiencing and how y- the Lubavitch that you were living a- and the Lubavitcher that you were, and these older Hasidim with a whole different experience and a different world that they came from. And you had that back then. Does that... A- and bringing that forward to now your son's in 770, and he's experiencing a Lubavitch that's at least as different to yours as yours was to theirs. You could say it's more different, it's less different. I don't think that's the question here. Does it give you hope that just like you were, does it, j- just like you were able to figure it out for yourself, he'll be able to figure it out for himself? And I'm not talking specifically about him, but you know, his, his friends and, and the people growing up now. Or does it make you a bit scared that, that a- all the time there's constantly something changing? And, and today, well, of course the problem that, uh, s- the, the, the bigger challenge that we have is that we don't have a Rebbe who is updating the program, so to speak, right? There isn't a new Miftzayim that he could do better than

1:11:29 Speaker 2 you, right? Everything that he has is something that you have as well, and he's, and he- but he's still, he's for sure in a different world. So does it give you comfort knowing that there's always been a level of change, or does it make you nervous how much change there always is?

1:11:45 Speaker 1 That's... This is, uh, a question which, um, I don't, I haven't thought that much about. But, um, yeah, there's a lot of change in, in the whole world. You know, I saw once, you know, the, the billboard, you know, the iPhone, the iPhone 8.0 changes everything again, you know. Thing-- The world's changing. Lubavitch is changing. Everything is changing very fast now. But, uh, you know, besides the fact that the principles are the same, um, I don't know if I ever, I thought about getting hope from our situation. But yeah, we were very different than the older Hasidim, but it could be then again, we had the Rebbe in a, in a gufkashmi face-to-face who really picked us up. The Rebbe really carried us all on his shoulders. But we believe that the Rebbe's, uh, uh... Y- like Yaz of Sayma, they say you see it from a hoosh. The Rebbe's inspiring these Bachram in a very real way. And within their changes, and they have their friends and their, their groups. And if they're searching for, for the identity of Chabad and they're searching for the Rebbe, they'll find it, and they'll find it in their own way. And the fact that there's no new Miftzayim and no new Sikers, 'cause it's all within the same principles anyway. The principles never change by the Rebbe, just the, the manifestations and the... So it's within those principles, and you see very many groups of Bachram who are very diff- forget about the divide between, uh, my

1:13:04 Speaker 1 generation and them. Within the, within the groups today, there's, they're very different to a lot of them. And many of them are finding a real path, a path to what Lubavitch is, a path to their relationship with the Rebbe, and they're not all the same like we spoke about before, you know. So, uh, you know, I think, uh, I, I, I, I, I think it's not a, that's not, that's not the, the biggest issue. You know, there is a, there is a very strong wave from Elom Haza and, uh, and, uh, the Elom Haza being in front of us, social media and, and everything that comes with it, that's a big challenge. There is, there are al- also additional challenges, but the fact that things change as far as, you know, Lubavitch, that the older Hasidim today we're-- It's pretty bad if, uh, in a few years I'm gonna be the older Hasid and I-

1:13:51 Speaker 2 That's, that's-

1:13:51 Speaker 1 And I was by the Mendel. That is a little scary. No, really.

1:13:53 Speaker 2 I was gonna ask you, does that scare you?

1:13:54 Speaker 1 And I have my friends, and I... Yes.

1:13:55 Speaker 2 Does that scare you?

1:13:56 Speaker 1 Yes. But somehow the Rebbe will-

1:13:58 Speaker 2 Talk about that a little bit.

1:13:59 Speaker 1 No, that's a good point. And I, and I lo- I love my friends, and some of them are your relatives and I look up to them. But that we're gonna be, you know, Rebbe Mendel and, and Rebbe Nissen and the Ben Tzemach, it's like, uh, i- because in, you know... Or, or who... Yeah, that, that, that, uh, I'm glad Mashiach is coming for many, many reasons. Not the least of that is that. But that's why, you know, look, Hasidim Shalom Golos goes any longer, we have a lot, a lot of challenges. I know we have, we're talking about we have to prepare every day for the Avida of the future. But, um, this is all heading towards, uh, Gola, redemption with Mashiach.

1:14:38 Speaker 2 But give me, give me a reason for hope that doesn't involve the Rebbe should bring Mashiach. I mean-

1:14:44 Speaker 1 Well

1:14:44 Speaker 2 No, no, because, no, because I-

1:14:46 Speaker 1 That's not a Lubavitch question.

1:14:47 Speaker 2 No.

1:14:47 Speaker 1 You're, you're saying-

1:14:48 Speaker 2 It's a Lubavitch que-

1:14:49 Speaker 1 You're saying like this.

1:14:50 Speaker 2 Okay. You know-

1:14:50 Speaker 1 If, if we saw what happened between 80 years ago and 40 years ago, and 40 years ago, and 20 years ago, and here's where we are now. So we need to ask ourselves what's gonna happen in 20 years, 'cause that's the way of Torah.

1:14:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:14:59 Speaker 1 Of course-

1:15:00 Speaker 2 Of course. If you take out a more-

1:15:01 Speaker 1 Mashiach is coming.

1:15:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:02 Speaker 1 The more, you know, the, the... We can get ourselves psyched up about Mashiach. The Rebbe spoke about learning and getting Mashiach and Gola, which also has many different manifestations, you know. One time, and I can't say I was, I would definitely, uh, I definitely need the strengthening and the encou- and, and, and, uh, yes, saying this, and this, and one time, one year, I read through Rabbi Galinsky's essays. His essays in his Sefer Yemei Moshiach V'Aharon. I love that Sefer. Yeah. I love it. And I, you know what, and you, you, it's, it's, it's, it's on the one hand, it's very substantive, it's pilpul, but it's very readable. Mm-hmm. You know, and I got, you know, it started, uh, it started resonating with me more, this is happening. The Rebbe knew what, the Rebbe knew what he was talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. Um- Well, it's just, it's- Okay, so let's, let's talk like this ... it's a, it's a realization that, that these are real topics that have been discussed for thousands of years in detail. Yes. And it makes it- Yes ... just for the fact that your mind- Yes ... has to deal with all these other minds grappling with these questions, you're like, "Wait a second. This is a real thing. This is a real question." And- Well said. You have a great way of expres- That's a great way of expressing it. I, I, right. Um, right, 'cause

1:16:11 Speaker 1 He brings, of course, from all the Shas Trumas from different ways- Yeah ... with it, right, and, and, and they're really, um, compliments to Rebbe's focus on these same things. It's, it's, uh, excellent. All right. And there's many other ways of getting inspired, and there's some people get inspired straight from the Sichos and the Ma'amarim, and that's great. And, and, you know, indeed, you know, I, I actually saw the, uh, I guess this is on the record, but okay. It's not easy for me to get up and say that the Rebbe said in Parshas Chayei Sarah that we have a navi in our generation. I've said it in other words. It doesn't come to me so easy. But I tell you, when I saw recently the actual Hagadah, you know, the Rebbe editing the Sichas, that Sicha, the Rebbe making changes and leaving that, you know, almost every paragraph had changes in that paragraph, the Rebbe just leaving it, you know, it has, has an effect. But to answer your question, somehow the Rebbe managed to work through the difference of the older Hasidim of, of when it was all the great, all the great older Hasidim that we had in, in the, the beginning of the Rebbe's nasius, then later, and then in my days, and then after Gimel Tammuz, and where we are today, where it's, can't compare the older Hasidim today. And somehow the, on the positive, all the positive things going on, the Rebbe's working through them, and the Rebbe empowered

1:17:23 Speaker 1 us. Every person can get a Rav, a Mashpia, and, and that could be for him that link. It's, it's the Rebbe worked through this issue. So, uh, in 20 years from now, and of course we'll be then in Yerushalayim in the long time Moshiach, the Rebbe's gonna have to work through us, but you know what? Uh, who will be the zede of our children? Yeah, we, it, it's time to grow. It's time for myself and my, uh, generation to grow up. Yeah, in other words, we have to take, um... First of all, there is a lot of that. You know, people today sh- I mean, who, who'll be the zede of your children? The answer is you. That's what I mean. That's right. That's an- That's right. That's right ... and, and you're, you're not going to miraculously change into a different person. Right. Right? And my guess is that those older Hasidim, they probably had similar fears also. They probably had similar like, "Wait a second. We're now the white beards." Oh, sure. Right? "We're now the white beards." Like, Mendel Futerfas was a young man once upon a time, too, and- He was a businessman. Yeah. He was a, he was a business- He was a very savvy, very savvy... And he comes from a family of businessmen. I mean, he, his father passed away before he was born, but, you know, I, his, his mother apparently was a very, a very savvy woman. But, um, yeah, so, like, I'm sure one day

1:18:32 Speaker 1 they're like, "Wait a second. We're, we're the big Hasidim, and, and I'm the guy, and I'm the, I'm the Mashpia. Like, I'm the man." And I think the Rebbe even had to f- uh, convince him to go be a Mashpia in Chabad. Yeah. I was like, well, what in the wor- The Rebbe chose somebody from out of the system and- What in the world? Like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be the, I'm gonna be the guy? Take over the Shlag Hanhi. It's like Yeah, like what? What's up with this, right? And so, like, it c- that, there, there is only one answer. It, you know, what the question is how, how, what is the hopeful ans- w- what gives, what, how can we be hopeful about that? I'm not saying not to believe Moshiach coming, but we cannot be selectively believing Moshiach coming for the things that scare us the most. You know, like- Right ... yeah, I, you, you, you hear people say, "Im yirtzeh Hashem, if Moshiach doesn't come," it's usually right before Tisha B'Av, you know, or, or Gimel Tammuz, but not before the day of their Hanukkah seudahs or their $10 million Chabad House, right? They don't say that that- When the money's in the bank or any other, yeah ... we can come the day after that, but- The boat ... so I, I, I, I'm, I'm poking a little bit of fun, but I mean- Right ... you cannot just, when things get a little bit scary, all of

1:19:36 Speaker 1 a sudden say, "Moshiach is gonna come." Yes, Moshiach will hopefully come, but with- without, without relying on that, um, what is the hopeful- I'm gonna add o- I'm gonna add one thing, and we're getting to the end of our conversation. Uh, just giving a little bit of historical perspective. You, you went on Shlichus, and some people learned a little bit, had more time, had less time, you know, the Rebbe said you should learn. I think, uh, in the last 30 years, many, many Shluchim know they take to have chavrusas much more than before. They have chavrusas, and if you look like what we talk about in our WhatsApp groups, it's not only, I mean, of course you've, if you have a new story of the Rebbe or some inspiring story of the Tzemach, you know, these videos, you know, they're, they're great. But sometimes we ask very serious question. I'll give you an example. We had a whole discussion on my, uh, class WhatsApp group about mamon. What does it mean the Rebbe's mamona based on a Sicha that people learned in Parshas Sichas, and it was a very real discussion, and people really got into it. They, they read the Sicha, and they read the Torail, and they thought about it, and these things happen not so infrequently. I think people are, are, we're maturing with our own responsibilities in that we have to take hold of ourselves. We can't just get dragged along with the Daveid Hillel Babich. I think much more than

1:20:53 Speaker 1 sh- I'm saying Shluchim and Anash also. Hmm. Obviously, I'm speaking in generalities. People are learning more. People are thinking more. People are much more than in my mind 30 years ago. No, that, that, that's a hopeful way to end the conversation. Mm-hmm. I ho- hopefully this conversation- Right ... will be a small part of that then. Okay. Again, thank you very much for doing this. Sure. Ben should come back in the winter. It's a lot better. Oh, yeah. I, I, I grew up in Hong Kong. This weather makes me feel right at home. It's happening again. Oh, yeah. Okay. Right at home. All right. All right. See you. See you. See you. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Soran and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.