Screens, Safety and Sanity with Dr. Yosef Shagalow

00:00 Speaker 1 Hi, I'm Zalman Schneer. Welcome to the Everything Chinuch podcast, brought to you by the Menachem Education Foundation. Here, you'll find fabrangins, workshops, live interviews, and more, all to inspire you, the Chabad educator. We hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome, everybody. To all those who are joining us, I wanna thank the close to one thousand parents that have registered for this workshop and the fifty schools that have partnered with us. This is the first in our series of parent webinars. We'll be hosting parent webinars every month. Next month, we will have Rabbi Brein, the Moreh Adas Yisrael, Chabur Vesdin of Crown Heights, speaking about Yiras Shamayim. And tonight, we are honored to have Rabbi Dr. Shegalov, Rav and Shliah in Minnesota, who, um, for the past two decades have been g- almost, I think, over three decades now already, have been guiding parents, families in, um, therapy and psychology. I know from my own work in Chinuch how many schools look to Dr. Shegalov for resources, for crisis management, for all things related to mental health. And it's a big zchus to have Rabbi Shegalov tonight to talk about screens, safety, and sanity. And, um, the presentation will be for about forty-five minutes. There will be time for questions and answers at the end. And we welcome your participation, your questions, and we look forward to a extremely engaging and inspiring evening. And really, and thank you so much to all of you for joining us and making the commitment to be the best parents that

01:52 Speaker 1 we can be. Without further ado, Rabbi Shegalov. And I would remiss without thanking the wonderful staff at the Menachem Foundation for putting together this webinar, for reaching out and partnering with all the schools. And may Hashem give us the strength and ability to continue bringing to you amazing content. Thank you. Rabbi Shegalov.

02:16 Speaker 2 Hi. Thank you, everybody, and thank you, Rabbi Schneer, for inviting me to this very important seminar, and I'm honored to present. Uh, this is a tremendous pleasure and honor for me to do this. I also wanna thank the Menachem Education Foundation. And as you said, I think the organization is amazing, does amazing work. I have been honored to, uh, be present at, uh, some of the retreats which you have put on, and it has been something which is beautiful. I'm also honored to have this opportunity to present to so many people, um, who have signed up for this presentation, and I'm looking forward to sharing this hour with you. Is there, uh... Okay. Um, I do not see anybody on my screen except for myself, so I apologize if I'm not looking directly at the screen. It is a little bit uncomfortable. Um, my name is Dr. Shegalov, and I am a therapist here in the Twin Cities. I am also a Shliah, a rabbi of a small shul. And, um, today, we're gonna talk about internet safety. We're gonna talk about the issue. We're gonna talk about some of the problems, and we're gonna hopefully talk about some of the, uh, interventions and some of the solutions which we can have to address this problem. So, uh, beginning with talking about internet safety, I wanna begin by saying that for a lot of people, uh, I wanna s- dispel some myths. And some of those myths are that, uh, the internet and issues around

03:58 Speaker 2 the internet and figuring out how to deal with the internet is a problem for children and teenagers, number one. Number two, it's a problem in the Jewish community and, um, or in the Chabad community, in the religious community, et cetera. So another myth about that is that managing use on the internet is something which takes just intelligence, and it takes willpower, and it takes focus. And by having those things, we'll be able to manage the internet, and we'll be able to manage social media and online activity. So those are two myths which I wanna discuss right now, uh, dis-discuss right now, and I just wanna add a third one. And the third one is that somehow people who have struggled with the internet, struggle with social media, struggle with online use are going through a moral problem, which means that they're struggling with a moral issue. Uh, and I think that's also incorrect. I think it's-- this is just, uh, which I'll get into that in a minute. So first of all, as a therapist in Minneapolis, and also not just in Minneapolis, but we're dealing with clients across, uh, the United States, and I would say across the world, I do work with international clients too. What I find is that, number one, this is not a problem just-- not an issue just for teenagers. The internet has been alive and well and a-available as ubiquitous as it is since two thousand and twelve approximately, when in two thousand and twelve, over fifty percent

05:36 Speaker 2 of the United States population had access to smartphones and became a big issue. Uh, the information which I'm gonna share tonight, I began presenting in the year two thousand and eighteen, if I'm not mistaken. But now this information which I'm gonna talk about and the issues with online use has been accepted by everybody. There's practically nobody today who says that internet use, uh, is only healthy. Uh, and everybody agrees that internet use and social media comes at a high expense, and it's something which we need to deal with. Um, the stuff I'm gonna share with you today, by the way, comes from, um, sources which you can find yourself besides from my own experience. This is one book called Irresistible, which is by Adam Alter. It's called The Rise of Addictive Technology and the Business of Keeping Us Hooked. There's also a famous, um, podcaster by the name of Jonathan Haidt, who, uh, spoke about-- has a podcast about this, and his conversation about online use is very similar to mine, and I'm quite impressed to see that, uh, we are saying pretty much the same things. And, uh, so if you're looking for sources to back this up or to be able to research this even more, those are some of the resources which you can go to. Um, if you just type into the in-- into, uh, AI, type in, um, how to deal with the internet and problems with the internet and things like that, and with social media, you will find

07:15 Speaker 2 the same issues brought up there because of the commonality of this, of the, uh, dealing with online use. So, uh, this is not a Jewish issue. I work with clients, forty to fifty percent of my clients are not Jewish, and I see people, uh, dealing with, uh, online use by it for themselves and for their children struggling with this. And we're seeing internet addiction together with other parts, uh, other sub-aspects of that too, uh, as a mo-more and more common problem. We're seeing the effects which it has on relationships and things like that. Um, second thing is, as I said, it is we think of this as a teenage issue and the how to use safety online. Safety online as a, um, as an issue for teenagers. The reality is I think we all struggle with it. We're all dealing with this, and, um, we all need to figure out ways to deal with this in a way which makes the experience more of a healthy one. And so this conversation is not just for our children. I think it's a conversation for ourselves too. A-and finally, uh, this being a moral issue. Um, online use and technology today is so powerful that this is not something which we will be able to deal with simply by making good choices when we are already online. Uh, it will not... This is not something which just simply by deciding to, uh, limit your use online, that you'll be able to deal with the problem, especially not

09:05 Speaker 2 when it comes to children, expecting children to do this, being upset at children, for them to manage their time online. Now, it is true that some of us have internal skills and intel-- internal strengths, and it's not an issue for us, or it's not an issue for them. But for most people, online use and the online experience is so powerful that it is unfair to ask them to manage their own use online. And the way for us to deal with that is to deal with it, uh, we've got to take a long-term approaches. We've gotta step back, and we've gotta have a plan in place so that we use the internet safely. Now, I wanna start up-- begin-- I wanna point out right here that I do not condemn, and I do not think the internet is a bad thing. I do not think online use is a bad thing, and I do not think that social media is bad. I think these are wonderful and very powerful tools which have expanded and improved our quality of life. And this applies to all of us, whether you are in yeshiva, whether you are, uh, uh, parents, whether you're an individual, whether you're a student, whoever you are. There's no doubt that online use has been, has improved our life. I am able to talk to my children. I'm able to talk to my grandchildren using Zoom, using WhatsApp. Uh, we're able to find information immediately today, uh, using the, the, using, uh, the internet, using

10:39 Speaker 2 online services, things like that. Today, we've got AI, which is making it even more powerful, though not always correct. Um, so it's important for us to know that I'm not here to condemn the internet at all. But I am here to say that this is a powerful tool. And because it is a powerful tool, we have to recognize its power, and we have to recognize the need to be able to manage that power. I like to think of it as a Minnesotan, where a lot of people in Minnesota, uh, like to go hunting and carry guns. Guns, whether you agree with it or not, guns are a powerful, powerful tool. I know parents over here like to take the children hunting. And, uh, everybody knows that if you're going to give a child a gun or if you're gonna use a gun yourself, you need to have a license. You need to learn how to use it because as productive and as efficient as a tool it can be, it can kill in the wrong hands, and it will kill when it's in the wrong hands. I wanna take that analogy a little further and use the example of a car. Cars are very powerful, and cars are very useful and very efficient. They get us around. I don't know any parent who will give the keys to their car to their child and say to the child, "Here's the keys to my car. I trust you, and please use it safely." We all know

12:04 Speaker 2 that that's not a realistic attitude, and that's irresponsible because to drive a car, a person needs to be trained, needs to go through hours of, of School to be able to drive a car. And also the notion that I trust you is inappropriate because the car is so powerful. If a person doesn't have the skills, it's not an issue of trust. It's an issue of having the appropriate knowledge, having the appropriate training to be able to use this in an effective way. And if we can't do that, we're giving a weapon to our child. That car which we're driving, or that car which are the keys you give to your child, is not going to help them, but it's gonna get them into a lot of trouble. And I think the same thing is true when it comes to online use. This is new. It hasn't been around for that long. It's been around since two thousand and twelve, like I said. So for some of us, for the younger generation, it's always been in their life. But for us adults, we've seen what it's like before, and we're still getting used to it. Us as parents are still not sure how to use this technology, how to m- uh, balance this technology and have our children use it in safe ways. And part of the problem is we're not sure ourselves how to use it in a safe way. So I wanna talk about that because f- my job here is, like I said

13:37 Speaker 2 earlier, is not to describe, is not to tell people that they should not be online or that their children should not be online. I think that's a choice which parents make. I think it's a pa- choice which adults need to make on their own and to decide how much of-- how much they want to expose their children to. I will talk about later some of the recommendations about that. But I do wanna help parents understand and to dispel the myth that your children will take care of this on their own, or the belief that my children are not susceptible to the problems and the issues of the Internet and online use and social media. These things are powerful, and everybody and anybody is susceptible to unhealthy use of social media and of online use, which can unfortunately quickly lead to addiction like anything else. Uh, there's a debate in the literature whether we can call this an addiction or not, but based on what I know from experience, uh, where addiction takes over people's lives and they need more and more of it to feel gratified applies to the Internet and to social media just like any other chemicals or any other process addictions which are out there. So let's talk about that. First of all, the reason why the Internet is so addictive is because, and s- social media is, number one, because instant gratification. Think of it this way. We all like connection, we all want friends, and we all want to be

15:16 Speaker 2 patted on the back, and we all want gratification and validation. Social media and online use gives it to us immediately. When you look up something, it comes, you get the answer immediately. When you interact with somebody online, you usually get an, a response immediately. And as a result, what it does is it creates an expectation of immediate gratification, which doesn't match the real world when you're offline. When you're online, you get what you want in thirty seconds. But when you come home and you want supper, and it takes mom or dad fifteen minutes to prepare supper, you've got a child who's extremely impatient because that child, he or she has learned that they get what they need, and they get gratified immediately. Number two, a lot of social media today is algorithm-driven. And what that means is that the information you get is driven by an algorithm to give you exactly what you want. And it keeps people engaged. It gives them the information, exactly what they think they're gonna like. And as a result, when people fall into the use, online uses, you know, y- we're all scrollers, as they call them, um, death scrollers. I forget the term for it, but, uh, we've all experienced that when we're watching something, and we keep pressing and get new information and new information. And it becomes practically impossible for willpower alone to overcome that constant reinforced, um, presentation that w- that, uh, feeding of data and feeding of information which, uh, we can't handle. Number

17:02 Speaker 2 three, there's a lot of FOMO, and that is fear of missing out, obviously, and that's a tremendous amount of anxiety for us. We wanna find out what happened. We're hooked into our favorite sites, to our, our favorite, uh, online, uh, places. And, uh, that creates also a tremendous pressure for us to go back and to find out what has happened. I know myself recently, since October, uh, seventh, uh, to twenty twenty-three, and other things, the e-elections which just occurred, because it's so available, we go back to that. I come from a time and when the news was available in the morning, you pick up the newspaper, you pick up the radio, and even then, you'd be able to listen to the news on the hour. Nowadays, the information is available whenever we want it and exactly how we want it, which also feeds the addictive and the constant nature of it, which makes it very difficult to manage. The other part is the social pressure. Once upon a time, you had a class you had to compare yourself to. Nowadays, you've got the world to compare yourself to. This is a very difficult thing to deal with. Teenagers are espe-especially vulnerable to peer pressure. And it's not just peer pressure which they deal with for when they're in class, this is peer pressure which they have to deal with twenty-four seven. The other thing is this is very much a dopamine rewarding system. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of personal

18:37 Speaker 2 reward. The brain gets a lot of rewards by staying online. There are likes, which you see all the time. There's the constant reminders that there's somebody who sent you a message, and all of these things force us and train our brain to wanna go back again and again. And as a result, our brain gets overloaded, and there's not much else we can do. And especially for children whose brains are being developed, the social rewards and the psychological rewards they get from being online, whether it's a game with clapping or the, these yay and this tremendous amount of, uh, graphics and validation for whatever move they make, this makes it even harder. It makes it even stronger and more, much more powerful. And finally, for those people who are struggling, and for them, life is not as exciting, and they are, uh, have difficulties of one kind of another, what happens is social media becomes an escape. It becomes a place where they can have some pleasure, they can have some relaxation, and they can be satisfied. And so what it does is it keeps them away from facing their difficulties. It keeps them distracted from having to deal with the struggles which they have. Once upon a time, before social media and before online use, if a person didn't have anything to do, they would become bored. And if they became bored, that would push them towards taking action, to learning something to do, maybe having a hobby and things like that. Nowadays, that doesn't

20:21 Speaker 2 happen because s-social media and because online use is so available, there really is no reason to go on anything, to do anything else. There's an interesting statistic which I saw, which is that teenagers and children today, on average, spend less time outdoors than maximum security inmates. Maximum security inmates in jail are required to go outdoors for a certain amount of time during the day. And our teenagers today, because of the availability of online media, are just not going outside as much. Now, I know that's just an average. There's a lot of kids who are playing baseball, riding their bikes, going outside and doing stuff. But on average, the going outdoors has diminished extensively. Another interesting thing, statistic is that since two thousand and twelve, all indicators of mental health have dropped in the United States of America, and similarly in industrialized countries where there's access to the internet. In two thousand and twelve, as I said earlier, is the time when the internet became so, so ubiquitous and so available that you could find it in your phone, which means carrying it around with you, making it available all the time. This is a issue which we need to deal with. There are physical consequences also. The physical consequences of being online, I think it's very important to know that. Physical consequences, it affects our eyesight. It affects directly our sleep. When somebody is online and just before going to sleep, it interferes with their ability to have a proper sleep cycle, especially when a

22:16 Speaker 2 person's got unlimited access to online use. It's just pretty hard to go to sleep. It's also pretty hard to stay asleep when you're being dinged, you're being reminded, and there's availability. So what happens is it interferes with the ability to sleep. But even if person turns off their phone and turns off their media just before they go to sleep, their eyes and their brain is so stimulated that the sleep pattern is interrupted for quite a while, and that person is just not getting as good sleep. The cycle. There's effects of poor posture, sitting in a chair all the time, not doing exercises, staying in the same position with the head bent forward, whether you're standing looking in your phone, whether you're, uh, using a computer screen, there's the same struggles. The psychological consequences of this excessive use of online, online, for example, increased stress and anxiety, like I mentioned. Depression and mood disorders, and most of all, attention and focus issues. We see a lot of those. And that is the more time people spend online, the less patience people have, the harder it is for them to focus offline. This is something which we call pseudo-ADHD, which means pseudo attention deficit disorder, because they're so used to getting information in small bites, and it's exciting and highly stimulating. When you're offline, there is no way to provide somebody with information or to teach people things in that way. And so, for example, the traditional form of learning, and especially in our schools and in

24:04 Speaker 2 our yeshivas, where people are listening to a teacher, students are listening to a teacher, it's pretty hard for teachers to compete with that. Yes, they can bring online screen online into their classroom, that's true. But there's a lot of traditional learning which happens from books, which our students are not capable of doing because of the focus it takes. And they have learned just to look at a screen and to get the information so quickly. Some of the social effects of excessive online use is social isolation, and I see this all the time. Once a person gets online, what ends up happening is that person can get focused on the social media and start trolling and using it in such a way that they disconnect from interpersonal relationships. Now, I know that internet and social media has two sides to it. On one hand, it is true that social media actually connects us, as I mentioned earlier. Kids today are even more connected than before. There are children who struggle with face-to-face connection, and being able to be online is actually a blessing for them. Especially children with an autistic diagnosis or other social diagnoses, makes it easier for them to interact online and to get their information online, uh, in ways which they wouldn't be able to do it directly. Uh, there are people who are far away. For example, a baal teshuva around the world. They're having access and some social interaction specifically because of social media, and without it wouldn't happen. And that's

25:43 Speaker 2 true. But on the other hand, we need to be aware of the risks and the dangers which come with that too. And again, that's an important thing. The problem with the social aspects of, of social media, besides for the fact that sometimes we're not communicating with a real person, we're just watching or scrolling. The other problem is that we are interacting with people in a very artificial way. We are seeing them in the way they want to display themselves for us. We don't see the full picture of their lives. And when we see them in the flesh, we're looking at somebody in a much more realistic way. And so it is important for us to balance social media together with real life interactions and to remember how important they are. And another thing which happens is, simply by being online, I am watching children, and I am watching teenagers lose their ability to truly connect and to truly socialize with people one and on in-- one-on-one in a real setting for excessive period-- a long periods of time. They just can't do it. And this is becoming a bigger problem, especially as they get older and it's time for them to get married, to find a partner, and to interact socially. What ends up happening is they don't know how to do that. They don't know how to mediate conflict, they don't know how to start a conversation. And what's happening is we are watching the divorce rates go up. I am seeing divorce rates

27:11 Speaker 2 going up. And I can tell you from personal experience that relationship conflict and relationship issues has gone up directly in proportion with access to the internet and availability of social media. It has become a bigger and bigger problem. Think a minute-- think about it this way. What would you rather do? Would you rather have a discussion with your spouse or with your close friend, a difficult discussion to work out something which is bothering you or them? Or would you rather distract and get involved online and not have to deal with that issues? Now, sometimes that's a great option, but most of the time and over extended periods of times, it is extremely destructive. Couples are not working out their issues, and what they're doing instead is separating, going online, distracting, and not dealing significant problems. Why? Simply because it's available. And because it's available and so gratifying, there isn't the motivation to truly deal with the issues which come up in their lives, and this is becoming a very significant problem. I wanna talk some other social consequences besides that. Access to online creates opportunity for cyberbullying. Cyberbullying is a big problem, and I'm not here to address specifically cyberbullying, and it's really not that much different than bullying, um, in, on the playground, except it's exponential. And what happens online is somebody can be bullied, a word can be passed along, and it's not just passed along to the six people who hear the conversation, but when something is posted online, it gets spread

28:58 Speaker 2 around, and those consequences are devastating. And actually, they have, as fortunately know, those things have re-- caused people to actually attempt suicide and to actually commit suicide. And that has become a significant problem in our communities, and we need to deal with it. Another social issue is simply decreased empathy. We are not as empathic to deal with this. We're not as empathic as we used to be simply because we are exposed to so much, and it just tunes us down. It, it turns off our capacity to be empathy, em-empathic. And finally, one of the issues I see constantly in my office and when I work with clients and when I work with parents, it's emotional ability. The intense connection which a human being and a child makes with online media and with a smartphone or with the technology which they're using, is a bond which is chemically the same and stronger than an intimate relationship with a spouse. Just think of that. The relationship they make or we make with our technology creates the same chemical reaction and even more powerful than the chemical positive reaction we have when we are intimate with somebody else and when we're having a relationship with somebody else. The gratification is so powerful. When you think of that, what that means is, by the time a person is ready to enter into an intimate and a, a committed relationship with somebody else and to get married, at that point, from a chemical point of view and from a psychological

30:50 Speaker 2 point of view, they are already married. They are already committed to a relationship. They're getting their gratification, they're getting their stimulation, and sometimes even unfortunately, sexual gratification if the issue is pornography which they've been watching. Which has already created a bond, and by the time they're getting married, they already have a spouse, and that spouse is the technology which they have. And we can see this, and parents have told me this, and I see it in my office. When parents try to limit social media or try to limit use to their smartphones or to computers, what we see is a response from children which is un-unbelievable. The resistance, the anger, the emotional ability which occurs is something which parents are shocked by. "What happened to my child?" And the answer is simple: You are taking-- breaking them away from something which is extremely, extremely important and extremely powerful to them. When I was a child, I was upset when my dad or my mom took away a book I was reading or took away a game I was reading. But today, the connection with online media is so much more powerful because it's so im-it-it's so im-immediate and, and so stimulating, and it's, it is so arousing that it causes this effect. The problem gets even stronger with, uh, uh, inappropriate content online, which is something which unfortunately is so powerful that when people get on-- children get online, and even adults get online, this is information which is tra-traumatizing. And these are images and

32:41 Speaker 2 videos of pornography, or whether it's death or other things, or, or violence, which is so powerful that as traumatizing as it is, it's exciting and it's stimulating and it creates a trap for our young teenagers, for our young children and adults. And unfortunately, I have had to deal here in Minneapolis and around the world with children five or six years old who've become exposed to things which they should not have been exposed to simply because their parents trusted and believed that their children are online and it's safe for them. And this is another myth we need to understand. You cannot leave a device unfiltered for your children. You cannot do that. You can have the best children in the world, but they are gonna be curious, and they are gonna go online, and they're going to look for things. Whether the age of six or twelve, they're gonna find things, and things are gonna be pushed at them. And once they get expo-exposed to these things, what you see and what you hear, you cannot unhear and you cannot unsee. And especially when it comes to things like pornography and when it comes to, uh, unhealthy things like that, what tends to happen, this has a monumental effect on the direction of their development. It creates unexpect-- un-unrealistic expectations for boys, and it causes them to have difficulty later on when they exist in a real relationship. It creates unexpect-expected anxiety and fears for girls who believe that they have to deal with these things

34:26 Speaker 2 and they have to live up to this, whether it's body image or whether it's behaviors which to them are strange and things like that, which we're all exposed to and they become exposed to. How do we deal with these things? What do we do? Before I go on, I just wanna talk about the spiritual effects, which I think is very important in our language, the ruchniusdike effects of online media. And those are very powerful because it's hard-- number one, hard for young men and women and students to focus on learning, especially in the traditional style in a book, and to find interest in it if they can be highly stimulated by being online and watching fun videos or interacting with part-- with, with friends. And what ends up happening is, over time, they just do not have the ability to focus on these things, on learning and on studying as the way they could have if they were not exposed. It caused them to be distracted. And when you're distracted, you're happy. And when you're happy, your sense of meaning goes out of the window. Because meaningfulness is a sense of purpose, and we need a sense of purpose to fill up that boredom and that feeling that I'm not doing anything productive. That's where meaningfulness comes from. I wanna feel meaningful. I wanna feel like my life is important. But when you've got constant stimulation, you don't even think about meaning. And even if you believe in meaning, you get distracted from pursuing it

36:00 Speaker 2 because there's something in front of you which is so exciting. It causes tremendous sleep disturbance, which means that our children are not able to get up in the morning, whether it's for davening Shacharis, or whether it's for going to school, or whether it's for doing anything productive besides for that. What can we do as parents to deal with this? So first of all, I wanna make it clear that this is an issue for every single parent. I cannot tell you and I cannot stress enough how many parents have come to me and said to me, "Yes, Dr. Shagalov, I have heard your podcast in the past, but I was negligent and I pushed it off, and now here I am talking to you because I've got a child, a son or a daughter, who unfortunately has been exposed or is addicted to social media, or is, is addicted and is locked in the room and won't get out of it. Or whatever reason, is just using their phones too much." And so we all need to deal with this, and we all ne-need to recognize that filters are not something which shows that we have a problem. Filters is just like when you go bowling. You go bowling, and you have what they call those, um, on, on the gutter. I forgot what they're called. Uh, guards, so the ball doesn't go into the gutter. Uh, and we wear seat belts, and we have a gun we use as safety. When we use the internet,

37:27 Speaker 2 we need to have safety. We have to have the safeties on, on that, and that's what a filter is. At minimum, a filter which protects your child from pornography and protects them from excessive, uh, adult-related material, not because your child is a bad kid, but because your child is a wonderful, wonderful child. And why should he or she be exposed to things and then not be able to get away from it because there was no filter on the phone? Now, yes, I know. I know the truth, that every child who's interested will be able to get past a filter. I understand that, but that is a myth that every child will be able to get past a filter. Because most of our children are not interested in going to those places when they're four and when they're six and when they're 10 or seeing things which are of adult content, whether positive or negative. They don't necessarily go looking for that stuff. But once they find it, that's when we've turned on a switch which is very hard to turn off. The longer we can keep them away from that, the better off we are. So install a filter. If you need help, there are organizations like TAG which can install filters for you. Again, this is a preemptive, uh, issue which you need to do. What else can we do? What else we can do is, first of all, we can have some rules and guidelines for internet use in our homes. And this

39:07 Speaker 2 is not only coming from me as a religious therapist. This is coming from the World Health Organization. Make sure that you set some clear guidelines for internet use in your home. There are times when the internet is available, if you choose to have the internet in your home. If you don't, that's your prerogative, and it's not a bad idea. If you can maintain that, that's fine. Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with your child not being exposed to the internet if that's something which is a value of yours. And stand up for it. There's no reason to be ashamed that you're not allowing internet into your house or online use into your house. On the other hand, if you feel that it is important, that's also okay, but recognize that that doesn't stop you from making it safe. And another way, a way to make it safe is to have designated times for it. My experience shows that it isn't fair to leave that up to you as a parent, and it isn't fair, and it's not realistic to leave it up to your child when you say you only have an hour use. There's no way that a child can self-regulate themselves to get offline after an hour. And what's gonna happen is there's gonna be blame, there's gonna be, uh, emotions upset. There's gonna be people upset. "I wanna stay online for a little longer." There's gonna be begging. There's gonna be cajoling. And before you know it, either you'll give in, or there'll be

40:38 Speaker 2 angry words, and either one of those things is not helpful. What can we do about that? There are many apps right now which manage the time. It's called a time filter or a duration filter. Some of the typical filters out there can do this, like NetSpark is one of them. If I'm not mistaken, I believe NB Smart can do that too and ha- has a time filter. I'm not sure about NB Smart. Um, but there are many filters. You can speak to TAG. TAG knows about this. There's also Gentec. TechLock, if I'm not mistaken, has, has a time filter on it. And it takes it out of your hands, and it takes it out of your child's hands. You can either say that your child goes online from 7:00 to 8:00, and then it shuts off, or you can have it go on for an hour a day, and then it shuts off. You can choose how you wanna deal with that. Yes, you're gonna need some help. And these, these features all need tweaking. They don't-- They're not static. You can't just put them on and leave them alone. You've gotta interact with them to make sure they're working well and they're doing their filtering properly because things change, and these filters are just machines, and they're going to miss things. And they need to be tweaked, and most of the companies are willing to help you through that. And so I recommend very highly using that. If you need help, I'm not a

42:03 Speaker 2 filter expert, but there's a company called TAG, an organization called TAG. You can get hold of them. You can speak to Menachem Education Foundation. They will give you the contact information for TAG. There's a specific organization in Crown Heights, as far as I know, which is, uh-- it interacts with TAG and also provides this kind of information. That's another thing you can do. The third thing we can do is simply model good behavior. And what I mean by that is we need to have in our own homes technology-free zones and technology-free times. There needs to be a rule that at the lunch table, at the dinner table, like Shabbos, hopefully. Shabbos is hopefully a technology-free time for most people. Unfortunately for our children today, that's become an issue because it's so hard for them to pull away from their phones. And so what we need to do is create these things. One of the things I find when I talk to parents is the reluctance to engage in this conversation and to set limit with parents. With, with their children. And the reality is that it is true. If you have difficulty setting limits with your children in general, you're not gonna do a very good job when it comes to setting limits around the internet and around online use. That is true. But if you want some ideas, I will tell you this. If it's a kid up to the age of twelve, thirteen, you set the guidelines. Talk about it with people around

43:38 Speaker 2 you, talk about it with families, decide what your value is, and set the guidelines. As WHO says, until a kid is about twelve, thirteen, they should only be one hour. They should have one hour of quality online time. That's one hour of recreational use online. One hour until the age of twelve, thirteen. You have a right to enforce that. You have a necessity to enforce that, just like you enforce other things. Yes, you want to have them buy into that. That's the negative side of this. The negative side of it is the need to enforce this. But the positive side is you're not going to be able to enforce this if your children are bored. You will not be able to enforce this if your children are struggling socially and they have a hard time making friendships. And this leads me to the other step, which is besides for setting limits, setting up, um, times when there is online free, like dinner, things like that, we have to address the issues going on in our children's lives. Once upon a time, it was easy or possible for us to ignore them. Our children would just be bothered. Our children would unfortunately not have the issues addressed. But today, if we don't address our children's social needs, if we don't address our children's boredom, and we don't provide them with alternatives, they will-- Uh, the alternative which is available to them is very powerful and very addictive, and it's not something they have to go down

45:20 Speaker 2 the street to buy a bottle of whiskey. It's not something which they have to travel somewhere to engage in negative behavior. It's coming right at them. It's coming right at them in their bedrooms, in your bedrooms, in your bathrooms, in your house. And so to deal with this, you cannot just deal with it in isolation. Watch your children. Notice where the struggles are. If they're socially not doing well, figure out what's going on for them. Talk to someone. Get help from a therapist. Get help from the teachers. Address the issues. If your child is struggling in school, maybe they have ADHD, maybe they have a learning disability, or maybe they just need some help because they were away from school for two weeks and they missed a certain amount of information and now they're lost in class. Get them the help they need. Get them the help they need. Sometimes children cannot self-direct. They may need games. They may need books to read. They may need activities to do. They may need help with friends. Create friendship dates for them so that they've got other activities. Because as I said, yes, it's true, you can set all the boundaries in the world, but if your child has nothing else to do, you haven't addressed the problem. I find that there are three types of people who are more prone to difficulty with online use. Those are people, number one, lacking in connection, number two, lacking in productivity, and number three, lacking in accomplishment and a

47:00 Speaker 2 sense of meaning. And when I mean by a sense of meaning, I don't mean that they are relig-- not religious and they don't have a sense of meaning. I mean that they don't feel that their own personal, personal lives matter to somebody else. Find ways for your children to have connection. Connect with your own children. Talk to them. Ask them how their day is going. I know that's hard, especially when they've got social media. But if you've got a time when they can't interact, like the lu-- dinner table, and everybody is sitting at the table, and you and your spouse are modeling that there's no phone use, there's no phones out during dinner, you will see you'll be able to have an impact on them. You are the strongest example for your children. Have times when your phone is in use, have times when your phone is not in use. When your child sees that you're online, you're in scrolling, death scrolling, or you are using the phone speaking to somebody else, they're gonna feel left out, and they're gonna wanna have the exact same experience. Something to keep them distracted, something to keep them busy while they don't have the attention of those around them. So you can be a tremendous positive example for, for your, for your children in that way. Like I said, connection. Stay in touch with your children. Give them chores to do so they feel productive, so they feel that they're doing something, they're not bored. And also give

48:41 Speaker 2 them a sense of meaning. Children need hobbies. Children need things, whether it's for boys, karate, baseball, jujitsu, art, puzzles, reading, bicycle riding, anything like that. Playing music, technology. Yes, technology. Whatever it might be, give them the ability. Introduce them to something, whether it's through classes, whether it's through, uh, teachers. Expose them to something that they can have besides just technology. And in this way, you are giving them something to use. And as, as I said earlier, a sense of meaning. Your children, uh, we all want to feel useful. We want to feel that we've got something to give. Teach them ways to give. Teach them ways to be, uh, to, to have meaning-meaningfulness. Just learning alone, for a lot of kids, they're not very successful when it comes to learning. They're not very successful academically. And so they're not getting reinforced. They're not getting socially reinforced. We need to provide them something to do that. The WHO, the United Health-- the World Health Organization says that children up to the age of two should not be exposed to any online media unless it's direct face-to-face communication. For children two until twelve-- till seven, one hour most high-quality internet use, uh, online inter-- um, um, online, um, exposure. From the ages of six or seven, so twelve till eighteen, they say one to two hours. That is what's recommended, not by me, but by the World Health Organization. What that tells us is that they are recognizing this is a big problem, and it needs to

50:42 Speaker 2 be dealt with. I'm gonna end over here, and I will tell you that thank God, uh, more and more parents are banding together, and they are recognizing that this is an issue, and they're not afraid to stand up. I know... I hear a lot, and it is a big concern, especially in schools, uh, for teenagers, where parents feel like it's a battle they can't win anymore. And there was an organization which began called MUST. Uh, there's an organization called MUST, which is an organization of women getting together to support, uh, control over internet use. And I think it's Mothers, um... It ends with mothers. I'm sorry, I don't know what the rest of the abbreviation is. It's late at night and my memory is gone, and I've been looking at a screen for too long. But I will end with that, and I'll open it up to questions for all those who wanna, uh, ask questions. So...

51:51 Speaker 3 Thank you, Dr. Shagalof, so much for addressing this really important topic. And now we're opening up the question box for Mothers United to Stall Technology. That's what MUST stands for.

52:03 Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you.

52:04 Speaker 3 Um, and we'll open the question box if anybody has questions. We have a few in already. Um, do you have resources for schools and parents to teach children and adults okay, healthy bound-boundaries with the internet and teaching teens better usage?

52:24 Speaker 2 Fortunately, you can go online, and you can look up, you know, what are good boundaries to set for teenagers. They're all readily available. I know that's a funny thing to say, but yes, online, you can go to WHO. There are pages and pages available about what's healthy usage for online. So, uh, like I said, uh, that's readily available if anybody's interested.

52:48 Speaker 3 Um, how do we manage children's addiction or obsession on going devi-- on devices constantly?

52:55 Speaker 2 Okay. Um, that's a very good question, and unfortunately, that's an issue which I'm dealing with more and more often. And, uh, I, I can tell you that probably thirty to forty percent of what I do is somehow related to internet use and addictive internet use. And the answer to that is, uh, depends on what age they're at. My experience is that a lot of children, a lot of children, especially in the early stages of feeling trapped by internet use, are waiting for their parents to set strong limits, and they're waiting for-- even though they fight, even though they argue, but deep down, they are waiting for their parents to set limits because they feel themselves stuck. I can't tell you how many times, bacherim, young men have told me, "I wish my parents would put a filter on the internet, on the ph-- on the computer," or nowadays you can even put it on the router. And some parents have realized that they need to turn off their routers at nine o'clock at night because they don't have much control otherwise. But that's an option. The first thing is to do is to engage in a conversation with your children and to talk to them about it. But for younger children, it is a, uh, easier because you still have some control. For older children, you may not have the same control. It is worthwhile to give them incentives. "We are gonna take away, uh, either computer time, but we're gonna give you something else

54:22 Speaker 2 instead. And for the long as you stay offline or..." And, and it's reasonable, of course, because our children, most of us who our children were exposed to online use somehow got exposed because it was okay in our homes to be online for a certain amount of time. Have a conversation with them, talk to them about setting guidelines, and model those guidelines for them and explain to them why it's unhealthy, but have something else for them. If they don't have something else instead, it's not gonna be helpful. And it's gonna take some time. Set them up with a class, set them up with an instrument, set them up with a hobby. Talk to them about what hobbies they can have. There's another important issue which I see, which is, and I think it's coming up, and that's about school. Unfortunately, in some schools, they have to rely on social media like WhatsApp to communicate with their students. I don't know what to say about that because that is feeding the monster in a certain way because it gives the, the students, especially the young teenagers, they're required to have a phone on them. Well, if you are requiring as parent, as teachers, if you are requiring the school that you, that the children and the students to have, whether it's WhatsApp or another means of communication, please, as a school, create a policy of how they should be using those phones. I know you can't enforce it, but at least stand behind a policy which says

55:58 Speaker 2 you want the students to have filters on their phones. And you wanna send out messages to those pa-parents with at least some basic guidelines, whether it's a time filter or things like that, and resources to help these kids who we are setting them up to use technology, to have smartphones, to be able to communicate with them, have a policy in place about how you are going to address these issues. Because I can tell you these issues are happening in every single school, and they're happening in more-- and, and this, our students are struggling in tremendous ways. I have found originally it was mostly boys were the ones who were struggling with pornography. Girls were struggling more with social media. That line is blurred. It's not true anymore. Both are struggling with both issues, but that's not the only problem. There can be addiction even without that, which has to be dealt with.

56:56 Speaker 3 Okay. Got it. And what age, um, does this-- You can't-- You said at the beginning you can't leave a device unfiltered nea-near children. What age does that begin at?

57:08 Speaker 2 Say that again.

57:09 Speaker 3 You said at the beginning that you can't leave a device unfiltered near children. What age does that begin to apply?

57:16 Speaker 2 It, it begins right away. It begins in utero, and I mean that very seriously. And the reason why I say it begins in utero is simply because if you don't get in the habit of having a filter, it's gonna come at the time you, you... Most parents install a filter when they notice in the history that the child has found things which are inappropriate or just is online for too long. And that's when they do it. So think about this, and it starts. There was a story here in Minneapolis in a school, which is a reasonable school, one of the schools here. A six-year-old boy came to school and asked a six-year-old girl to engage in activity which was inappropriate. And when they asked the child, "How-- Where did he even see this?" He said he saw it on his daddy's phone. So it doesn't matter. This is not about... And how did he see it? Probably it came on there by accident, hopefully. But nevertheless, that's what happened. And I was asked to come in there to talk to the teachers and to, to the parents about how to deal with this with, with, with the exposure and the trauma for this child and the other children who were affected by it. That's a six-year-old kid. Put filters or at least put a password on your phone, and please change your password on a regular basis. Your children are very smart and know how to deal with that. Okay.

58:40 Speaker 3 Are there resources? We have, like, thirty questions. I don't think we're gonna get through all of them, but maybe we'll try to get through another few until you're, um, ready.

58:49 Speaker 2 I, I-- So I, I-- Before you go on, I think I'm noticing some of the questions come in, and I will talk about this.

58:55 Speaker 3 Okay.

58:55 Speaker 2 I'm gonna talk about this in general. I, I-- One thing I didn't speak about is, uh, today, when a child turns eleven, twelve, we need to talk to our children about the facts of life. We need to talk to them about what they're likely to see online. We've gotta tell them what they need to know about puberty, about growing up, about sexuality, and things like that. I do not mean you need to expose them to every single detail which is out there, but they need to understand themselves. They need to understand that they're gonna become interested in this kind of stuff when they reach a certain age. We need to have those conversations with them proactively. I have had this conversation with rabbis, principals, and teachers, and parents, and everybody agrees that nowadays, we need to have these conversations. If you want information on how to have these conversations, there's a book put out, put out by doctor... I'm forgetting his name right now, um, who worked together with an organization called Guard Your Eyes. Um, trying to remember his name. A psychologist in, in, in New York. And Torah Umessorah has put out a book and, uh, for parents specifically, how to talk to the children about these issues. When do we talk about these issues? Comes to issues of puberty and sexuality. If you wanna know what to talk about, I recommend that you get the book. I think it's called From Boys to Men, and, uh, it is available. We need to

1:00:33 Speaker 2 be talking to our children right at the age of eleven, twelve. And if you know that your child is online, and he's got a phone, or he's, uh, and, and he or she is using it, just a moment here. If you know that your child is, is exposed to this, do not be afraid. Well, you may be afraid. I can't tell you how to feel, but do not worry about it. Talk to your child. Don't accuse him or don't accuse her. Say to her, "Look." That's right. It's, uh, Dr. Shloime Zimmerman. Thank you. Somebody posted that. And, uh, do not be afraid. Discuss it with your spouse. Discuss it with somebody professional if you need to. But look the child in the eye and say, "Look, something is going on. Something is happening. You've got a device." And you can take that away from them. They might take it, get another one. Or create some kind of agreement with them. And create some kind of incentive if you need to. There's this-- There's a, uh, a director of a school over here for teenage boys who had made an offer to the boys to pay them the cost of their phone if they're willing to give it up. He also creates other incentives for the boys to be motivated to stay off smartphones or to-- or at least, uh, to manage the smartphones effectively. This is something which is worth it to do because the damage is so great. Talk to your children. If you're

1:02:11 Speaker 2 afraid of talking to your children, talk to a professional to help you talk to your child or to have your child talk to them directly. How will you know if your child is struggling with this issue? There are a couple of ways. One of them is you suddenly notice a change in their behavior, in their mood. If they're locked in their room and they're not coming out of their room, if they are stuck in the bathroom for a long time and they're not coming out of the bathroom, if they be- suddenly become very seriously irritable when you ask them to come down to lunch in a way which you can't d- don't usually expect them to behave, and there's a just drop off in their behavior or change in their behavior in a major way, it's time to suspect that something might be going on and get some help. And talk to your child directly, and don't ask them questions which are yes or no because the answer's gonna be no. But if you really suspect that they've got struggling with a phone or struggling with an issue, bring it up and talk to them directly. And if you can't, get help to do that.

1:03:21 Speaker 3 Thank you. And I see a lot of questions coming in about, like, safe, so to say, um, screen usage, like let's say a specific video game that they allow or a specific Jewish videos that they allow, et cetera. Is that-- Can you address a little bit about that? Like the-

1:03:39 Speaker 2 Sure

1:03:39 Speaker 3 ... amount of screen time and-

1:03:41 Speaker 2 Sure. Uh, when I talk about screen time being an hour for children up to the age of five, you know, uh, um, five to twelve, six to twelve, you know, allowing them to have an hour, uh, online, I'm talking about not-- I-- That's a choice you need to make. Some of these games are not very healthy. I know, for example, online games are not very healthy and they're by definition addictive. But I'm not gonna make that choice because if you have good guidelines for your children, that's up to you. Um, some parents do not wanna have internet in the home. And like I said, I started this podcast, I'm not gonna give you, you know, uh, clear guidelines of how long and what games are appropriate and what are not. But that's up to you, but there needs to be some safety things installed. So I will tell you this. Some parents don't mind their children being online watching game, playing games. And if you want them to play games, make sure that they're child appropriate, and make sure, like I said, even more so, that you've got a time filter or that you've got time limits for that. Now, another way to look at time when it comes to working with children is instead of looking at how much time should they have online, work backwards to how much time do they need to take care of their daily life? How much time do they need for homework? How much time do they need

1:05:05 Speaker 2 for supper? How much time do they need before they go to bed? At least forty-five minutes not being online. How much time do they need for homework? How much time do they need for the outdoors? And after you've determined that, you can discuss the rest of the time them being online, which is not gonna be more than an hour anyway. Um, that's the way to look at it. Make sure that your children have the time to do other things too.

1:05:33 Speaker 3 And how would you protect your kids when they're with their friends or they're going to other houses that don't have limits or restrictions? How do you go about with that?

1:05:43 Speaker 2 That's, that's a very, very good question. And, um, you know, when I was growing up, you know, my, the neighbors had television. My dad did not want me-- my parents did not want me to watch television. Sometimes I went over anyway. But, uh, they had to make choices about where I hung out because of their values. And sometimes it impacted my friendships, and sometimes it didn't. And I think that's something which parents have to recognize. We're getting that if you've got strong values, you're allowed to stand up for what you believe in. And it is okay to tell a child, "Look, we're concerned," or to tell a parent who you're sending your child to for a birthday party, "You know, we're uncomfortable with you going to this, uh, because to this home because we believe we want, we want, uh, the, the, the computer filtered." I know that's hard for a lot of people to do, and I, I agree it's hard for people to do, but, um, that's something to take into consideration, unfortunately. That, um, your child-- I would say that that'd be an issue till the age of twelve and thirteen. You wanna be careful about that, and I think parents need to gather together to get support to be able to do things like that. Um, and parents need a place and, uh, and their own support to stand up to those kind of influences which are going on around them. But I think we all do that every time out...

1:07:08 Speaker 2 We all have to do that at some point because we all have values which are not exactly the same as our neighbors, whether it's olive Yisrael, whether it's wearing a yamaka, whether it's the tzitztzit, whether it's movies or whatever it might be. We have values, and I think that parents are too afraid, and they needn't be so afraid to set boundaries. Of course, it becomes harder if they haven't-- you haven't set boundaries yet and want to establish new boundaries, and it, it, then it becomes a problem. But it's still possible. Set clear boundaries, give them a say in this, but also be firm till the age of twelve, thirteen. Beyond that, it's gonna be a lot harder, but nevertheless, it's a conversation which you can do and you need to do. For as long as you have some power, establish boundaries. They wanna get a smartphone, and it's okay with you in general. Maybe you can convince them to-- allow them to get it if they install a smartphone. Depending on what your values are, if you do not believe in them having a smartphone It's totally okay for you to say, "We don't have a smartphone." And give them an incentive of some kind for them to stay off it. And if you see that you can't, then you're gonna have to hopefully create some kind of negotiation. Maybe like, "Put a filter on it, we'll pay for the phone," or whatever, whatever kind of, uh, uh, agreement you can make so that these

1:08:37 Speaker 2 kids, um, that you can have some control over it. Um, yes.

1:08:44 Speaker 3 And I have a few people asking for the resources that you gave, that you mentioned throughout the talk. So after this webinar, everybody will get an email within a few days with the recording and with all the resources that Dr. Chagulov mentioned. And then I'm gonna take one more question, and then we'll close off. Um, do you have, um, resources for kids that already got into trouble in the Internet?

1:09:11 Speaker 2 There are... Today, there are quite a few therapists who deal specifically with Internet issues, and I want to say s- I want to make a plug over here, not for anybody specifically. But Internet, uh, excess Internet use is an addiction, and it needs to be treated as an addiction. It is not an option. Therapists who are not trained in Inter- not, forget the word trained. Therapists who don't have experience with Internet addiction and don't f- and are, are not going to be able to deal with this problem. Most children and most teenagers who struggle with Internet use need a guided approach. Setting limits, setting boundaries with reinforcements, and ongoing conversation to keep them motivated by putting in a filter and things like that. You cannot provide just ther- insight therapy for somebody who's in addiction. That's like trying to provide insight to somebody while they're an alcoholic. You've got to have an, uh, complete comprehensive approach which addresses filters, addresses motivation, addresses co-occurring disorders at the same time, and having a, a plan which is catered towards that specific child, that specific teenager, and that specific adult to address their needs and to address relapses and problems along the way so that they got the support. Remember, every addiction is a problem of connection. People becoming isolated and going inward. And the, the, the solution to that and the intervention to that is providing more structured and effective support with a plan. And so yes, there are lots of therapists around who are now quite

1:11:13 Speaker 2 familiar with, with Internet addiction and are ready to, to provide help. You can get those-

1:11:20 Speaker 3 Thank you so much

1:11:21 Speaker 2 ... you can get that help from Guard Your Eyes. I do that kind of work, uh, a lot of the time. Um, I'm pretty full myself, but I am available. And there are other people who do this in Crown Heights and other places, uh, who can provide this kind of thing. And again, like I said earlier, uh, it does really need somebody who understands, uh, Internet use as an addiction and not just as a, uh, a behavior which you can motivate somebody on their own to change with their own just free choice. That's not gonna happen.

1:11:53 Speaker 3 Thank you for listening. Wishing you much hatzlacha in your vital shlichus.