Somachat Alayich - Episode 10 - The Guide to the Teenager

00:01 Speaker 1 I’m Happy for You, Michal Levitin. How are you?

00:04 Speaker 2 I’m Happy for You, Chani Marzel. Great. The weather’s a little chilly, but our hearts are warm.

00:10 Speaker 1 Just so you know, we’re in—almost a city.

00:15 Speaker 2 Okay.

00:18 Speaker 1 We’re recording another episode.

00:21 Speaker 2 Let’s go, how fun!

00:21 Speaker 1 In your yard, with the podcast equipment and Dovi, who’s been...

00:27 Speaker 2 Amazing, amazing.

00:28 Speaker 1 He really puts in the effort for all of us.

00:31 Speaker 2 Right.

00:32 Speaker 1 So what are we talking about today?

00:35 Speaker 2 Wow, what are we talking about? First, the chilly weather. Just kidding. Come on, what are we talking about?

00:41 Speaker 1 Actually, in the previous episode, when we talked about health, you started saying that joy is one of the ways to build up immunity.

00:53 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

00:54 Speaker 1 I have this thing about joy. I understand from “Serve Hashem with joy” that it takes work, and—

01:02 Speaker 2 Everything takes work in the end.

01:04 Speaker 1 Yes, but tell me: how can you live joyfully? I don’t feel like I always manage to.

01:11 Speaker 2 I’ll let you in on something: neither do I.

01:14 Speaker 1 No.

01:14 Speaker 2 That’s it, we can end the episode.

01:17 Speaker 1 So you work on it?

01:18 Speaker 2 Of course.

01:19 Speaker 1 What?

01:20 Speaker 2 Because it’s easiest for us to feel down and sad and...

01:25 Speaker 1 No, not necessarily. It isn’t always feeling down and sad, but—

01:28 Speaker 2 There’s a certain pleasure in it.

01:29 Speaker 1 In feeling like a victim.

01:30 Speaker 2 Yes. There’s a pleasure in sadness and in feeling sorry for yourself. It feels good, it’s an appealing feeling, and you want more of it. You sink lower and lower. It pulls you down and cools you off, but it feels good. I mean, you can enjoy it.

01:47 Speaker 1 You can say that too?

01:48 Speaker 2 I can say that too.

01:49 Speaker 1 Do you experience that sometimes?

01:51 Speaker 2 Sometimes. Sometimes I choose to go there. I want to feel what people feel. I want to experience it. So I sort of put myself there and say to myself...

01:59 Speaker 1 We’ll get to that. We’ll get there.

02:01 Speaker 2 I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you. Say I hear some bad news. I want to experience that sadness, so I make an effort. I stop for a moment and say to myself: Hashem, a young woman has just passed away, and it hurts. I could say, “Well, these things happen. It’s sad, of course,” but it doesn’t feel fair to just skip over it.

02:27 Speaker 1 Okay.

02:27 Speaker 2 So I make an effort to be in that sadness for a little while—

02:33 Speaker 1 And what do you gain from that?

02:35 Speaker 2 First of all, I get that pleasurable feeling.

02:38 Speaker 1 Really?

02:38 Speaker 2 It’s there. Listen, it’s there. Going into sadness—I can understand people who get stuck there.

02:47 Speaker 1 Who are drawn there.

02:48 Speaker 2 Drawn there and stuck there.

02:50 Speaker 1 Wow.

02:50 Speaker 2 There’s a certain pleasure in it.

02:52 Speaker 1 Interesting.

02:54 Speaker 2 It feels as though you don’t care about anything. It feels... First of all, you only see yourself.

03:04 Speaker 1 And that feels good.

03:06 Speaker 2 And no one else matters.

03:07 Speaker 1 I’m trying to understand where this meets me. Because in those places, I don’t feel joy, but I don’t feel completely... I’m neither here nor there, so I’m missing out on a lot too.

03:19 Speaker 2 Neither do I. Come on, I’m not there either.

03:21 Speaker 1 No, but you know how to define it.

03:23 Speaker 2 I know how to define it, and I know how to get there if I choose to—

03:27 Speaker 1 So let’s talk for a moment about working on joy.

03:29 Speaker 2 Working on joy means seeing the sadness, seeing the bad things happening in the world. There are so many reasons for sadness around us.

03:41 Speaker 1 And pain.

03:41 Speaker 2 You have to fight, to choose to see the good and choose to be joyful despite it all. And to give yourself permission to do that, because—

03:56 Speaker 1 Explain.

03:57 Speaker 2 Let’s say we weren’t living through a war right now. Jokes about war wouldn’t be acceptable, right? Jokes about how much we’re [unclear] right now wouldn’t be acceptable. Jokes about missiles flying toward us... But precisely when there’s so much pain, there’s room for humor.

04:23 Speaker 1 And people look for it.

04:24 Speaker 2 People look for it, and you have to choose it. You have to be on that wavelength.

04:29 Speaker 1 Wow.

04:30 Speaker 2 Because if you’re not on that wavelength, you could even be offended by it. You might say, “What are they laughing about? We’re... What is there to laugh about in this world?”

04:41 Speaker 1 Okay, so you have a way of looking at things from the side. I don’t know, outside the box.

04:47 Speaker 2 Right.

04:47 Speaker 1 How does that work?

04:49 Speaker 2 How does it work? First of all, I really do see things a step ahead, sort of. What—

04:55 Speaker 1 You once called it a comedy of errors.

04:58 Speaker 2 Right.

04:58 Speaker 1 How does that work? Come on, give us a little glimpse. Don’t worry.

05:02 Speaker 2 Look, at the end of the day, what do we laugh at? What makes us laugh? Other people’s mishaps. Someone falls or slips. Come on. A video captioned “A fall in Rishon LeZion” gets millions of views. Everyone clicks to see the fall, and then they see someone slip while carrying a cake. Millions of views for that fall in Rishon. In other words, other people’s mishaps make us laugh, and so on. Ultimately—

05:23 Speaker 1 Why? Because it makes our own mishaps feel normal?

05:25 Speaker 2 It does that too, and... Come on, it’s funny. I can’t tell you why. It’s funny. There’s also an idea about laughing, by the way, when someone falls.

05:35 Speaker 1 Yes. Why?

05:36 Speaker 2 It’s from the Gemara, or I don’t know where it’s written—don’t hold me to the source—that there was some sort of judgment against that person, and if people laugh, it’s annulled.

05:43 Speaker 1 It sweetens it.

05:44 Speaker 2 It sweetens it, yes.

05:44 Speaker 1 Okay.

05:45 Speaker 2 So there’s something to it.

05:46 Speaker 1 But also—

05:46 Speaker 2 Now—

05:47 Speaker 1 But there’s also the danger. You shouldn’t laugh at the person; you should laugh at the situation.

05:51 Speaker 2 Right. Right, absolutely.

05:53 Speaker 1 That’s a boundary too.

05:54 Speaker 2 It’s a boundary. And with children too, by the way, if something happens to them—say they fall or slip—we’re not laughing at them. You have to know how to separate the two, and when it’s okay to laugh about it. But the basic idea is: if in five minutes, ten minutes, a year, two years or three years, you’ll laugh about the situation, why not start now?

06:15 Speaker 1 If you can laugh about it, why not laugh now?

06:17 Speaker 2 Yes. Broadly speaking, that’s the formula.

06:19 Speaker 1 The formula.

06:20 Speaker 2 Yes, exactly.

06:21 Speaker 1 Okay.

06:21 Speaker 2 Exactly. Most things that happen to us are hilarious later on. I mean, when you look back—

06:28 Speaker 1 Give me an example of a situation that happens to you, how you manage to see it that way, and how you turn it into something funny.

06:37 Speaker 2 Just today I heard a story. Never mind who or what. Actually, no. I don’t want to use that story; it’s too difficult for me right now.

06:44 Speaker 1 Oh.

06:45 Speaker 2 Let’s give it a pass.

06:47 Speaker 1 No, that’s okay.

06:48 Speaker 2 No, but—

06:48 Speaker 1 Again, you probably don’t want to laugh at the person.

06:50 Speaker 2 Okay. Yes, yes. I’m saying a little more time needs to pass before that story is funny.

06:54 Speaker 1 Ah.

06:54 Speaker 2 In other words, everything has its—

06:55 Speaker 1 That has nothing to do with it; I’m just curious. Okay, I understand. So try to think of something else.

07:02 Speaker 2 What was the question again?

07:04 Speaker 1 When a situation happens, how do you... There’s a formula, and you recognize it, so what do you actually do? I’d like to come away with some kind of...

07:14 Speaker 2 What do I do? First of all—

07:15 Speaker 1 Some tool for doing this work.

07:16 Speaker 2 Right. First of all, I pause. I make that cut. I don’t react immediately—if it’s a situation happening right in front of me, of course. Did we talk about Breiny cutting her hair? Maybe we did. I don’t remember. So first, take a deep breath and think. You don’t have to respond right away. I say this all the time: we live in a generation where we feel we have to respond immediately.

07:45 Speaker 1 Okay.

07:45 Speaker 2 Right?

07:46 Speaker 1 And everything—

07:46 Speaker 2 “I saw the blue check marks on WhatsApp. Why aren’t you answering?” Excuse me, once upon a time it was a carrier pigeon. Okay, once upon a time you’d get a fax a week later.

07:55 Speaker 1 I feel it with childbirth too: a woman gives birth, and a second later she’s expected to be back in the thick of things.

07:58 Speaker 2 What’s going on? Give us a chance to breathe.

08:02 Speaker 1 Yes.

08:03 Speaker 2 To process things. It’s as if we’re no longer allowed to.

08:05 Speaker 1 And now, during the war, people might call you at three or four in the morning.

08:09 Speaker 2 Everything has become...

08:10 Speaker 1 At any hour.

08:10 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

08:11 Speaker 1 Okay, so take me through what happened with Breiny.

08:15 Speaker 2 What happened with Breiny... I think I told this story on one of the podcasts, didn’t I?

08:19 Speaker 1 No, but tonight she got into trouble.

08:20 Speaker 2 Tonight, yes. The audience just doesn’t know about it yet.

08:24 Speaker 1 They do now.

08:27 Speaker 2 So tonight she cut it again. First of all, I take a deep breath and tell myself, “It’s only hair. Come on.”

08:33 Speaker 1 You know, telling [unclear], “It’s only hair. Come on, it grows back.”

08:36 Speaker 2 Yes. Everything is “only hair.” It’s only a vase; it’s only a material thing. Anything that doesn’t involve emotional, personal or physical harm, or destruction.

08:48 Speaker 1 Glass marbles.

08:49 Speaker 2 Right, glass marbles, so there’s time to respond. You can respond at the right moment. By the way, it was only when I fixed her hair, about half an hour, forty minutes later. You know, she cut one side, I cut the other. So we had a conversation. I said, “What do you think about cutting your hair? You’ve cut it before, and we talked about it. What do you understand from that?” “I understand that I’m not allowed to cut my hair, and I understand...” Okay, she had already come up with all her own insights. Listen, can I tell you she understood it one hundred percent?

09:22 Speaker 1 That she won’t do it again.

09:23 Speaker 2 That she won’t do it again. I don’t know, but that’s the nature of children.

09:26 Speaker 1 You’re also managing to let her have an experience she feels good about.

09:27 Speaker 2 I fall and get up, fall and get up.

09:29 Speaker 1 Maybe she had a good creative experience there.

09:31 Speaker 2 She was thrilled with herself, thrilled with herself. She likes how she looks, she likes it. By the way, the whole family made sure to tell her how awful she looked. So before she went to sleep, she said, “I don’t know if I’ll go to kindergarten tomorrow. It doesn’t look nice anymore.” Suddenly she was maybe...

09:46 Speaker 1 In other words, the influence of her surroundings.

09:47 Speaker 2 The influence of her surroundings, but personally. Let’s say no one had interfered just now, with everyone giving their opinion about how she looks. She would have felt that she was okay, that she was okay.

09:57 Speaker 1 Because you also reflected back to her that she was okay.

09:58 Speaker 2 I reflected back to her that cutting her hair by herself wasn’t okay. I didn’t reflect back to her anything about the result, about how she looks.

10:04 Speaker 1 Wow.

10:05 Speaker 2 Because that’s hers. That’s hers. If she likes herself...

10:07 Speaker 1 Were you able to find the humor in it?

10:08 Speaker 2 Was I able to? Listen.

10:12 Speaker 1 The whole story, you’re saying, is a comedy.

10:13 Speaker 2 She’ll look at herself and laugh about the whole story in a few years. I have no doubt. No doubt. I think she’s already... I don’t know, realizing that people are laughing with her about how she looks. But again, it hurt me personally that she now has bangs. I mean, right down near her scalp. No.

10:38 Speaker 1 Amazing.

10:39 Speaker 2 It’s hers.

10:40 Speaker 1 That’s freeing.

10:41 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

10:42 Speaker 1 Wow.

10:43 Speaker 2 And I think that’s the secret to life in general. Let go of everything that isn’t about you, everything that doesn’t hurt you, everything that... Why take on more? Why take on difficult feelings? Life is hard enough.

10:58 Speaker 1 So there’s really a lot of letting go, and—but I still haven’t gotten the... You still haven’t revealed the secret of... No, I want the... Because ultimately we do understand that we need to work at it. “Serve Hashem with joy”—it’s written.

11:15 Speaker 2 Right.

11:16 Speaker 1 And we need to be joyful. And you say joy is also a form of protection for our health.

11:20 Speaker 2 Right.

11:20 Speaker 1 So please. But how? How do you actually do it, this being joyful?

11:27 Speaker 2 Oh, there are so many things you can do. One second. There, that gave you a laugh.

11:36 Speaker 1 No, you see? I’m in the vibe.

11:38 Speaker 2 So, an immediate change of atmosphere. Whether it’s getting up and dancing, clapping your hands, even laughing artificially.

11:46 Speaker 1 The [unclear] effect.

11:47 Speaker 2 Right. Even artificially—something sudden, something different, brings joy. It simply brings joy. Put on a funny wig, walk around the house, put on a funny song. Be—

11:59 Speaker 1 As in, be aware that right now you want to be joyful.

12:01 Speaker 2 Yes.

12:02 Speaker 1 No matter what, no matter what’s happening.

12:04 Speaker 2 Completely. I don’t know, make funny announcements, anything. Say, as a mother, you now tell your children, “Time for bed.”

12:14 Speaker 1 I turn on the microphone and use this voice.

12:16 Speaker 2 Right, just a little change, a little freshness, something a bit different from your usual self.

12:23 Speaker 1 Wow.

12:23 Speaker 2 It, it, it works. It works.

12:25 Speaker 1 Okay, we’ll try that at home.

12:26 Speaker 2 Yes.

12:27 Speaker 1 You should try it too.

12:29 Speaker 2 Just now that was a sound effect, but I can really do it, yes. “Girls, now we’re going to bed, okay?” You see my little ones—that’s how they are with it.

12:37 Speaker 1 Okay, but I can say that’s you. Even Libi, my daughter, comes over, sees you and says, “Make me laugh,” because she’s already grasped the concept.

12:44 Speaker 2 Every mother has it in her.

12:46 Speaker 1 Yes.

12:46 Speaker 2 Every mother. You can even ask the children. Children are born performers, you know that. Children are born performers, born comedians, born... We shut that down in them.

12:56 Speaker 1 And what do you do with people who have no sense of humor?

12:59 Speaker 2 I don’t believe in that statement. I just don’t.

13:01 Speaker 1 You’ve never met someone you try to make laugh, and they don’t laugh?

13:05 Speaker 2 Um, that sounds... First of all, there are people like that. They exist. I won’t tell you they don’t. But it’s not because they have no sense of humor; it’s because they’ve had too many difficult experiences throughout their lives.

13:16 Speaker 1 Yes.

13:16 Speaker 2 They’ve put up so many defenses.

13:18 Speaker 1 Wow.

13:19 Speaker 2 They’re afraid that if they let go and laugh, then...

13:24 Speaker 1 No, but don’t you meet children who haven’t even been through things, and you try to talk to them and they don’t get the... They don’t get it, they don’t find it funny, they don’t understand. It’s just not...

13:37 Speaker 2 Children? No.

13:39 Speaker 1 Teenagers.

13:41 Speaker 2 Teenagers. Maybe teenagers, yes. Could be.

13:44 Speaker 1 Maybe it’s a phase of “Nobody can make me laugh.”

13:46 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes, yes. No, with teenagers. Do you want to talk about it? That’s...

13:51 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

13:52 Speaker 2 Wow.

13:53 Speaker 1 No, actually, I think we need to talk about teenagers.

13:55 Speaker 2 Let’s do it, let’s talk about teenagers. One second, we need something here.

13:58 Speaker 1 What do you want?

13:59 Speaker 2 Wait.

14:01 Speaker 1 Go on, make an announcement, an announcement.

14:03 Speaker 2 Okay, dear teenagers, we now dedicate this podcast to you, for the sake of your emotional and personal well-being. Yes, teenagers are a whole world. Wow, wait, that’s the sound, right? That’s the sound. Great. Um, I don’t know why they’ve been given this label, as if they’re “teenagers.”

14:31 Speaker 1 What does “teenagers” mean?

14:32 Speaker 2 And alongside it, slash, “turning stupid.”

14:35 Speaker 1 What does “teenagers” mean?

14:35 Speaker 2 That’s what it sounds like.

14:36 Speaker 1 What age do you think counts as being a teenager?

14:37 Speaker 2 I think it starts at a year and a half. I mean, it’s...

14:42 Speaker 1 Yes, now you have little children, you have children...

14:45 Speaker 2 I have every age, really, from...

14:48 Speaker 1 And in every category. You’re a mother of little ones, of teenagers, of a married daughter.

14:52 Speaker 2 Right.

14:53 Speaker 1 You’re a daughter and a granddaughter and a sister and an aunt. You have all the titles.

14:57 Speaker 2 Right.

14:59 Speaker 1 You must see a difference between the little ones and the teenagers.

15:03 Speaker 2 Let’s say the only difference is really the hormonal changes that drive them a little crazy. They can get upset, um, easily, and everything sets them off. They have very, very short fuses.

15:13 Speaker 1 Okay, but the worries aren’t the same either. And the responsibility—what you give the little ones compared with what you give the older ones—that’s different too.

15:20 Speaker 2 Right.

15:21 Speaker 1 And the feedback you get from older and younger children is different too. I mean, it’s not the same thing.

15:27 Speaker 2 It’s a little more intimate.

15:27 Speaker 1 Although, really, our young children today are also growing up and maturing.

15:33 Speaker 2 Right.

15:33 Speaker 1 I mean, both you and I have that, and we know it very well.

15:36 Speaker 2 Yes, it’s completely different.

15:37 Speaker 1 It’s a different kind of raising children, it’s...

15:40 Speaker 2 Shir Hallel.

15:41 Speaker 1 Shir Hallel.

15:42 Speaker 2 This week she started doing... Are you serious? The girl is two and a half. Okay?

15:49 Speaker 1 She doesn’t tell you, “You’re living in a fantasy world.”

15:51 Speaker 2 Yes. So I’m telling you, she’s already at the maturing stage. Look, I think...

15:55 Speaker 1 No, they’re not the example. But take your older children, when they were little and as they grew up. I mean, and your parenting in that respect.

16:05 Speaker 2 Wow.

16:07 Speaker 1 Does humor help you, or is it possible they even get angry at your humor?

16:11 Speaker 2 No, no, no, no. Look, I want to say I worked on that too. Oh, maybe I talked about this? Wait, I don’t know anymore. I’ve lost track of what I’ve talked about and what I haven’t. I have no idea. With my oldest daughter, um...

16:25 Speaker 1 You talked about it in the... “I flew to a conference.”

16:28 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. So there was something that happened—I don’t think I talked about this particular point. One day she told me, “Mom, you know, it was very hard for me when I came to you with things that felt difficult, and you made light of them with humor.”

16:48 Speaker 1 Mm.

16:48 Speaker 2 That was a punch in the gut. And then I realized something very, very important.

16:53 Speaker 1 You took that to heart?

16:53 Speaker 2 Yes.

16:54 Speaker 1 Okay, that takes a lot.

16:55 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

16:56 Speaker 1 That takes a lot.

16:57 Speaker 2 And I apologized, really.

16:59 Speaker 1 How wonderful that she came and told you.

17:01 Speaker 2 Yes. And it was a very, very important lesson for me. Very.

17:03 Speaker 1 And what did you do?

17:05 Speaker 2 Look, I can’t—I can’t change the fact that making things lighter comes naturally to me. But what did I take from it? I mean, what I learned was, first of all, to stay with the difficult feeling for as long as the child needs.

17:19 Speaker 1 And can you do that?

17:21 Speaker 2 Yes.

17:22 Speaker 1 For example?

17:22 Speaker 2 I mean, say one of my...

17:26 Speaker 1 One of your daughters.

17:26 Speaker 2 A teenage daughter comes to me and says, “Listen, the teacher did this and that to me, and said this and that, and I was terribly hurt and I cried so much.” And I’ll stay with her in that. I mean, for as long as she needs.

17:37 Speaker 1 So if you stay with her in it, that means you’re no longer making light of it.

17:39 Speaker 2 One second, one sec—no, no, no. First, stay with the feeling. And then I can say to her—at that point I’ll ask her, “Can I do an impression of the teacher for you?”

17:53 Speaker 1 Ah.

17:54 Speaker 2 So say, “No, I don’t feel like it.” Okay, then no. If you want me to imitate the girls around you—how they saw it?

18:00 Speaker 1 What, you’re really doing a whole therapeutic scene.

18:03 Speaker 2 Kind of, yes. And then, okay, if that’s all right, fine. So can I do something funny about the teacher? Say, “When I was your age, I didn’t cry over something like that,” or do some kind of imitation, for example. And that’s it.

18:17 Speaker 1 Ah.

18:17 Speaker 2 But, like, I—

18:19 Speaker 1 So you’re aware of it now, and you don’t make light of it; you just—

18:22 Speaker 2 Not right away, not right away, not right away. That’s something I took upon myself, because when someone told me something difficult, my natural reaction was to make light of it.

18:34 Speaker 1 Because ultimately, that’s your defense mechanism.

18:35 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. And it took me time to understand that.

18:38 Speaker 1 Because ultimately, you’re not dealing with pain either.

18:40 Speaker 2 Right.

18:40 Speaker 1 You’re running away from the pain.

18:41 Speaker 2 Right, right. I accepted that.

18:43 Speaker 1 Wow.

18:44 Speaker 2 Right. And today I will stay with that pain, even with the little ones. For example, if something happens: “Oh, you’re right, that really hurts. I understand you. Wow. Do you want to cry? Do you want to—me too.” Like, let’s just—until you can see it starting to dissolve for them.

19:01 Speaker 1 Beautiful.

19:02 Speaker 2 Okay, when they’ve had enough, that’s it. Now we can laugh.

19:05 Speaker 1 Wow.

19:06 Speaker 2 It’s like—I was looking for an anchor, a way to know when I could lighten things up. What feels very natural to me is a hug: when you hug children, there’s some study that says, how long do you hug them? Until you feel the child wants to let go.

19:23 Speaker 1 Okay.

19:24 Speaker 2 That’s sort of the...

19:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

19:26 Speaker 2 As long as they haven’t let go, you stay.

19:28 Speaker 1 Okay.

19:29 Speaker 2 So it’s the same with this.

19:31 Speaker 1 With staying with the pain, too.

19:31 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

19:32 Speaker 1 Lovely. Very lovely. But with teenagers, do you feel their sense of humor is—

19:42 Speaker 2 Different? Something else?

19:43 Speaker 1 Normal, or—

19:43 Speaker 2 Normal?

19:44 Speaker 1 Or with the hormones, what happens to the humor?

19:46 Speaker 2 Look, nothing is normal in adolescence. But they’re intelligent people.

19:54 Speaker 1 What happens to them? What happens to them?

19:54 Speaker 2 I’ll tell you. They’re intelligent, educated, all of that, but they’re incredibly slow. They become very, very slow creatures. It takes them time to understand things, time to—well, they’ll eat quickly, and walk—I mean—

20:13 Speaker 1 Grumble.

20:14 Speaker 2 They’ll grumble immediately. But understanding processes, understanding what you’re asking of them—that takes them a very long time.

20:24 Speaker 1 Okay.

20:24 Speaker 2 So we need to take a deep breath and have a lot of patience.

20:29 Speaker 1 Meaning?

20:29 Speaker 2 Don’t get angry; don’t say, “I’ve told you a hundred times.” Don’t get to a hundred times. Say it once, slowly.

20:36 Speaker 1 For five minutes.

20:37 Speaker 2 For five minutes, so it’s understood.

20:40 Speaker 1 Meaning, you take responsibility: if he didn’t understand, I didn’t explain it well.

20:43 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. And I can even come to him and say, “Apparently I didn’t explain myself well.” I won’t tell him, “You’re just not tuned in right now to yourself or to what I’m really trying to say.” I mean, I didn’t explain it well.

20:57 Speaker 1 And that’s where you use humor?

20:59 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes. Listen, again, it depends on the situation, my nerves, and the timing. I don’t think the kids would tell you I have a sense of humor a minute before Shabbos when they haven’t done the chores they need to do. I really do shut the windows and turn up the volume. Okay? There won’t be humor at that moment. So—

21:21 Speaker 1 And after you’ve turned up the volume, how do you face yourself?

21:26 Speaker 2 First of all, I face them. They’ll make jokes about me.

21:29 Speaker 1 Ah.

21:32 Speaker 2 And as for how I face myself...

21:33 Speaker 1 So the humor is still there, you’re saying.

21:34 Speaker 2 I’m human, and I’m allowed to lose my temper too.

21:38 Speaker 1 Okay.

21:39 Speaker 2 Okay, I’m human; I’m allowed to get angry. But for me to get to that point, it takes... something pretty big has to happen.

21:48 Speaker 1 How often does something like that happen?

21:51 Speaker 2 How often does something like that happen? Here, Dovi will answer. When do I reach peak frustration?

21:57 Speaker 3 When? Peak... Let’s start with Fridays.

22:02 Speaker 1 Every Friday.

22:02 Speaker 2 Yes, but every Friday.

22:04 Speaker 3 No, no Friday goes by without shouting. Come on.

22:06 Speaker 2 Some kind of shout.

22:07 Speaker 3 Yes, it has to happen; otherwise it isn’t Friday.

22:09 Speaker 1 So it’s a tradition. It’s tradition.

22:11 Speaker 3 Yes, otherwise it isn’t Friday.

22:13 Speaker 2 No, actually—

22:14 Speaker 3 Why is it tidy here? Why is it tidy here? I’m telling you.

22:15 Speaker 2 Enough. Don’t exaggerate. “Why is it tidy here?” I don’t need to ask why it’s tidy here.

22:19 Speaker 3 If anything is tidy, it’s the baseboards.

22:20 Speaker 2 Oh, enough. They’re making fun of me now, really making fun of me. “Mom, you haven’t shouted yet this Friday,” so I’m already... Yes, yes, yes. So if there’s nothing to shout about, I make something up. Anyway, never mind. You’re wonderful! I don’t know. Okay.

22:31 Speaker 1 And that’s when you shut the windows.

22:32 Speaker 2 And shut the windows. Again, I think it’s very human. You also need—every once in a while, it’s healthy to let out a shout.

22:40 Speaker 1 For you or for the children?

22:41 Speaker 2 For me.

22:43 Speaker 1 Ah, you need that emotional release.

22:44 Speaker 2 Yes, I think I do.

22:46 Speaker 1 Every once in a while, you go to Machlavi and shout.

22:49 Speaker 2 Yes, there needs to be some presence from Mom: I’m here. It doesn’t always happen, because shouting takes energy. I don’t always have it.

22:57 Speaker 1 That’s more interesting, because you’re not someone who does that. How do you let it out? But I like that you don’t judge yourself.

23:03 Speaker 2 Right.

23:03 Speaker 1 Afterward, I mean.

23:04 Speaker 2 No, not at all.

23:05 Speaker 1 Because if I—

23:06 Speaker 2 It feels good to shout.

23:07 Speaker 1 Really?

23:08 Speaker 2 It’s kind of... freeing.

23:10 Speaker 1 Freeing, but for me there’s the guilt afterward: What did I do? I shouldn’t have, or maybe I should have.

23:15 Speaker 2 No, let’s also hear what I’m shouting about.

23:17 Speaker 1 No, I don’t know.

23:18 Speaker 2 I mean.

23:19 Speaker 1 Let’s talk for a moment about saying sorry.

23:20 Speaker 2 Apologizing?

23:21 Speaker 1 Saying sorry to the children.

23:21 Speaker 2 Oh, that’s very easy for me. I have no problem with it.

23:24 Speaker 1 Really?

23:25 Speaker 2 I’m all for it, absolutely.

23:29 Speaker 1 What—give an example.

23:32 Speaker 2 I don’t know. If, for example, I shouted at a child when I shouldn’t have, then—

23:38 Speaker 1 I needed to let something out, but in the end it came out at someone who didn’t...

23:41 Speaker 2 Exactly. So, “Sorry, sweetheart. I’m sorry.” Absolutely, of course.

23:47 Speaker 1 It doesn’t feel beneath you, or...

23:49 Speaker 2 No, no, not at all. Not at all. Not at all.

23:53 Speaker 1 What an example. A living example for teenagers.

23:57 Speaker 2 It shows them that we’re—

23:57 Speaker 1 I think it’s really a living example at any age. But I do want to focus on teenagers for a moment.

24:03 Speaker 2 It shows them that we’re human and we make mistakes too. We apologize, take a second shot at it, and try again. I always tell the children, “Listen, I wasn’t born knowing how to be a mother, but I was chosen.”

24:18 Speaker 1 But you were meant to be.

24:19 Speaker 2 Meant to be, chosen. And I’m trying to carry out the role properly. If there are things where I need you to shine a light on the way for me, you’re welcome to do that respectfully and express your opinion. Not as a judgment or criticism, and not as—

24:34 Speaker 1 And what do you do about chutzpah?

24:37 Speaker 2 Ah, chutzpah is... I don’t think children want to be disrespectful. I don’t believe—

24:45 Speaker 1 You don’t see children as being chutzpadik.

24:47 Speaker 2 Exactly. We put a label on them and make the situation worse.

24:51 Speaker 1 Okay.

24:51 Speaker 2 What you just said has been noted—

24:52 Speaker 1 You’re against labels in general.

24:54 Speaker 2 Right.

24:55 Speaker 1 Okay.

24:55 Speaker 2 Because we’re beings who change all the time. Someone could say to me now, “Mom, you’re”—I don’t know—“the picture of health.” No, right now I’m in a phase where I’m not. So what? I can’t label myself as... because we’re constantly—

25:06 Speaker 1 I have aspirations, I have—

25:08 Speaker 2 Exactly.

25:08 Speaker 1 Goals.

25:08 Speaker 2 I have goals, aspirations, desires, and so do the children. They want to express themselves, and they don’t always find the right words. We’re here to help them get out what they wanted to say.

25:19 Speaker 1 So give an example of a situation.

25:21 Speaker 2 Okay, an example: a child says something that sounds like chutzpah to everyone, okay? There will always be someone who says to him, “Hey, don’t be so disrespectful. Come on.” There’s always someone who’ll say that.

25:32 Speaker 1 Ah, you have deputies, you’re saying.

25:34 Speaker 2 All the time. Listen, when you grow up surrounded by a whole bunch of people... And I’ll say, “Did that come out wrong? Come on, what did you mean to say?”

25:45 Speaker 1 Wow. But that comes from a place where you don’t think he meant to be disrespectful.

25:50 Speaker 2 Right. Because they really—

25:52 Speaker 1 They never mean to?

25:53 Speaker 2 They want to say something. If they do mean it, then there’s something deeper here that needs attention. It means we need to stop and take a look at what’s going on, have a conversation. There’s something painful here that stems from something else.

26:10 Speaker 1 Wow.

26:10 Speaker 2 It’s not about this particular act of chutzpah.

26:12 Speaker 1 Wow.

26:13 Speaker 2 So the chutzpah is a kind of signpost that something’s happening here. There’s a deeper pain. It’s not about that word.

26:23 Speaker 1 Beautiful. No, this is a really lovely conversation. And this is an age when they’re less keen to talk. How do you—what do you do?

26:31 Speaker 2 I don’t know if they’re less keen to talk. I’m not sure. Mine talk my ear off. I mean, they... There’s this impression that they’re less keen to talk because they haven’t found a listening ear. But this isn’t an age that likes talking less. They have so much to talk about. They’re very smart; suddenly they have insights about life.

26:49 Speaker 1 Do you have the patience to listen to all those conversations?

26:51 Speaker 2 Ah, I won’t tell you it’s always easy, because when do they come to me? Exactly when I want time to myself—when I get into bed and think, okay, now I’ll see what’s new in the world—and then, “Mom…” and they come to me for heart-to-heart talks. I won’t tell you the timing is always perfect, or that I’m not just about to talk to my husband when they all come hanging around. But I do, I do make room for it—

27:14 Speaker 1 I’ve been having fun conversations with mine since they were very, very young, and it’s taken root. It’s the greatest, greatest gift I could have given myself.

27:23 Speaker 2 Amazing.

27:24 Speaker 1 Because I have—first of all, they really learned to talk, and the things I hear from them today—

27:32 Speaker 2 So don’t tell me teenagers don’t like to talk.

27:34 Speaker 1 But it’s not—it’s that there’s a time for it, and then they’re more open.

27:40 Speaker 2 It’s the best thing there is. I really always recommend it.

27:42 Speaker 1 But it’s not as though I can just—they’ll come and pour everything out. The daughter more, the boys less. It’s—

27:50 Speaker 2 So with mine, they—

27:50 Speaker 1 I worked on that muscle of putting things into words and having conversations.

27:55 Speaker 2 Right, so I also started when they were little. When they were younger, I’d give each one between ten minutes and half an hour alone with me in my room.

28:05 Speaker 1 Every day?

28:05 Speaker 2 Every day.

28:06 Speaker 1 Wow, wow, wow.

28:06 Speaker 2 It was incredibly exhausting.

28:08 Speaker 1 That’s so hard.

28:08 Speaker 2 But it was an important period. I felt it was a very important period, and they wanted it and looked forward to it, so we did it. Slowly, I felt they didn’t need it anymore, because they found me during the day too. They weren’t waiting for that time. And today, they do find that time. They find it.

28:30 Speaker 1 No, but they know it’s important to you.

28:32 Speaker 2 It’s important to me, and it’s important to them too, because I really love hearing them. At the end of the day, they’re fun people.

28:39 Speaker 1 Beautiful.

28:40 Speaker 2 There’s so much to learn from them.

28:42 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

28:42 Speaker 2 Wow, my goodness. One of them is interested in recording studios, so he tells me about all the features you can use today to record with AI. It’s crazy! He says, “Mom, listen, you don’t have to be a singer anymore. Just say to me, ‘Hi, how are you?’ and I’ll make you a song. You won’t believe it.” I say, “Tell me about it,” and he shows me, and it’s interesting. And another child says, “Listen, Mom, I…”

29:02 Speaker 1 You enter their whole world of interests.

29:05 Speaker 2 Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. It’s incredible. Look, I won’t tell you I enjoy every one of their interests. Oh my goodness, I have a child who’s going on and on to me now about trading and capital, and I’m light-years away from that.

29:21 Speaker 1 What do you do?

29:21 Speaker 2 “Have you heard about [unclear]? Look, I made a demo, I made a demo, I made a demo. If I tell you this now…”

29:26 Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

29:28 Speaker 2 I listen very attentively. “Wow, wow, that’s great. Wait, so then what?” I ask questions that interest him. In other words, he keeps answering and working it out.

29:38 Speaker 1 You’re completely there for him.

29:40 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes.

29:41 Speaker 1 Showing him that it interests you.

29:42 Speaker 2 Listen, we can’t be interested in everything. One tells me about her friend who started wearing a low ponytail, and how much that—come on, is that what interests me right now? She says, “Listen, all these years you’ve worn your ponytail up here, and now you don’t understand.” I said to her, “Wow, how nice.” Why did she listen to me? Fine, fine, but that’s it. That’s the beauty of it.

30:00 Speaker 1 We need to show our children that it interests us. We don’t actually have to be interested in the subject.

30:06 Speaker 2 I don’t lie to them.

30:07 Speaker 1 No, you’re saying the subject doesn’t have to interest us. What interests me is that you want to tell me about it.

30:11 Speaker 2 Exactly.

30:12 Speaker 1 In other words, I’m interested in talking with you.

30:13 Speaker 2 Right. And I’m also glad they share things with me, and I get them to ask questions about… I mean, to develop their interest.

30:29 Speaker 1 Okay, so a child becomes interested in something and you buy him a recording studio. Then you buy him all the equipment.

30:34 Speaker 2 Right.

30:34 Speaker 1 That happens very quickly in your family.

30:37 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

30:38 Speaker 1 Which is amazing.

30:39 Speaker 2 It’s a bit of a bug. A tiny one. A tiny one.

30:42 Speaker 1 Because I don’t think they work for it.

30:44 Speaker 2 A child wanted to learn drums, and he already got a drum kit.

30:49 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes.

30:49 Speaker 2 And then I said to myself, “What am I going to do with this? Why did I buy it for him?” And you have no idea what it did to our home. I mean, what were we thinking when we bought the kit? Sometimes we just don’t…

30:57 Speaker 1 No, no.

30:58 Speaker 2 No. It’s okay, everyone has to learn…

31:00 Speaker 1 A positive bug. But it’s a positive bug.

31:02 Speaker 2 Again, I say, what could happen? He’ll have a recording studio; he’ll use it or he won’t. How much will he use it?

31:08 Speaker 1 No, but—

31:09 Speaker 2 It’s not some kind of…

31:10 Speaker 1 Maybe there’s room for him to have to make a bit of an effort too.

31:13 Speaker 2 Of course.

31:13 Speaker 1 To learn.

31:14 Speaker 2 Of course.

31:14 Speaker 1 And to put in the work.

31:15 Speaker 2 Of course. Yes. So I keep track. Every so often I come over and take an interest: “What have you learned now?” But honestly, I’d rather pay any amount. Really.

31:25 Speaker 1 I remember. Your Chani studied—

31:27 Speaker 2 Everything. Come on, you name it, you name it. What did she study? She studied wigmaking. She studied pastry-making. To be a chef. She studied [unclear], she studied…

31:36 Speaker 1 Kitchen-related things, you mean.

31:37 Speaker 2 Yes.

31:37 Speaker 1 Dafna.

31:38 Speaker 2 Right.

31:39 Speaker 1 She simply decided in the end that it wasn’t really for her.

31:41 Speaker 2 Right, but you say to yourself, what should you invest in, if not in this?

31:46 Speaker 1 Amazing.

31:47 Speaker 2 Fine, at most she’ll end up a banker. But what difference does it make?

31:52 Speaker 1 Well, someone has to calculate the money the parents spend. No, of course, with Hashem’s help, [unclear].

32:00 Speaker 2 This podcast.

32:01 Speaker 1 Still, the child wants it. No, boruch Hashem, and with Hashem’s help, may we always be able to give our children what they need. But where do children’s responsibility and financial awareness and all those things come in?

32:15 Speaker 2 Wow, that’s a question. That’s a question. First of all, our children have a very strong work ethic. They work from a really young age.

32:26 Speaker 1 Where does that work ethic come from?

32:28 Speaker 2 First of all, they always have bein hazmanim breaks from yeshiva, and they simply work. They take jobs. Last summer, for instance, they worked at Osher Ad, or they’ve done carpentry work—real work.

32:41 Speaker 1 That’s not easy money.

32:42 Speaker 2 No, actual physical labor.

32:45 Speaker 1 Where did that come from for them?

32:47 Speaker 2 First of all, they have parents who set an example of working tirelessly. We work hard, and until recently their father also worked at many different jobs. We don’t consider any work beneath us.

33:04 Speaker 1 So if they have something they want money for, they’ll earn it themselves?

33:08 Speaker 2 Yes, of course. They want a flight, they want a computer, they want—

33:12 Speaker 1 They don’t just come to their parents and say, “We need this.”

33:13 Speaker 2 No, of course not. We pay for something I see as a possible future profession, or something—

33:22 Speaker 1 That could help them get ahead.

33:23 Speaker 2 Exactly. That’s something I’ll help with; I’ll pay for it. I’ll pay for studies and things like that. But all the extras you want for yourselves—work and pay for them.

33:34 Speaker 1 They take responsibility for that.

33:36 Speaker 2 Of course.

33:36 Speaker 1 They have a work ethic.

33:37 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes, yes. That’s very important. It’s very important that—they might look spoiled, but they really aren’t.

33:46 Speaker 1 No, I didn’t say they look spoiled. I’m just curious and asking. I’m really enjoying this conversation with you.

33:52 Speaker 2 They know, they…

33:53 Speaker 1 And another question: how much do you put into words for your children what you invest in them? How much—so they don’t take it all for granted?

34:05 Speaker 2 Wow. I think they do that well themselves. They put it into words.

34:10 Speaker 1 What, on their own?

34:12 Speaker 2 Yes.

34:12 Speaker 1 They know how to show gratitude and say thank you and everything?

34:15 Speaker 2 Yes, they do.

34:16 Speaker 1 You don’t need to step in and put it into words sometimes?

34:20 Speaker 2 In the past, I did. We had a few conversations like that. They came after complaints, for example: “We have to stay here and watch the little ones while you go out,” and things like that. So I had to set things straight for a moment and have a talk along the lines of, “Look at what I do here.” But now, for years already, I haven’t needed to. They see it. They see the—

34:44 Speaker 1 But it’s not just that they see it. You’re probably doing something there. I think children do need things put into words.

34:50 Speaker 2 They receive appreciation. First of all, they’re appreciated for what they do at home. The annual trip we take every year—they know it’s a way of showing appreciation for everything they do at home when we aren’t there, and they do a lot. A lot.

35:07 Speaker 1 So they’re doing a lot.

35:10 Speaker 2 Yes, that too.

35:12 Speaker 1 But where is the—I don’t know, for me, sometimes… I remember when they were younger, I was very conscious of putting it into words. So I might say, “I thought of you at the store, so I bought this.” I put things into words a lot. I don’t take—I mean, I express the thought and the love behind it, and then the child receives it and understands: this isn’t something to take for granted. And when a child sees—

35:38 Speaker 2 What they’re receiving?

35:39 Speaker 1 Yes, that what they receive from us isn’t something to take for granted, and that’s where gratitude comes from.

35:43 Speaker 2 Wow. Our children live with the sense that we pamper them and give them an incredible amount. They—

35:52 Speaker 1 And they don’t take it for granted?

35:53 Speaker 2 No.

35:54 Speaker 1 How do you know?

35:54 Speaker 2 Because they see what their friends get.

35:58 Speaker 1 Ah, so it’s a comparison.

35:59 Speaker 2 A comparison.

36:04 Speaker 1 No, okay. You talked about how once a teacher said he couldn’t give the children anything but lentils.

36:09 Speaker 2 Right. With my children, I have to keep reminding them.

36:12 Speaker 1 But a lot of times, children who get so much become spoiled, and they take it for granted. And if you don’t give them something for a moment, they’ll be angry with you.

36:22 Speaker 2 No, no, no, it’s not like that in our house.

36:24 Speaker 1 So what do you do?

36:25 Speaker 2 I tell the children all the time that it’s not something to take for granted. All the time.

36:29 Speaker 1 So you put it into words for them.

36:30 Speaker 2 Yes. That what we have, and what we’re able to provide, isn’t something to take for granted, and so on. I want to go back for a moment to what surprised you there—that I show them appreciation in return.

36:44 Speaker 1 For their appreciation.

36:45 Speaker 2 Appreciation for what they do at home.

36:47 Speaker 1 No, I mean, it’s beautiful.

36:49 Speaker 2 It’s beautiful, but it’s also not something to take for granted.

36:51 Speaker 1 That a mother appreciates her child.

36:53 Speaker 2 That I—that we dedicate this annual trip to them because of everything they do at home throughout the year. There’s real reciprocity here. They know that we work hard, and we see how hard they work here.

37:10 Speaker 1 Beautiful.

37:11 Speaker 2 That’s what we have here.

37:12 Speaker 1 So it isn’t about dependence or obligation. It’s about gratitude and appreciation.

37:16 Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Every child has a job at home that they do all year. There’s laundry, and there are meals.

37:25 Speaker 1 Like I said, I was at your house once, and one of the children came in at a late hour, and I was stunned. No, I mean, in your house it was already understood. It was their job.

37:35 Speaker 2 Right.

37:35 Speaker 1 So how do you keep it from being taken for granted? You’re saying you take this trip.

37:39 Speaker 2 Right. Right. It’s really, really about appreciation. And on that trip, we build them up.

37:46 Speaker 1 Lots and lots of family time.

37:47 Speaker 2 Lots of family time, and appreciation for each person and what they do. We really, really say it out loud.

37:53 Speaker 1 That’s so beautiful.

37:54 Speaker 2 We clap, we honor it, we give it a place.

38:00 Speaker 1 You’re leading me to my next question. I don’t arrange these questions in advance—don’t think that—but this really does lead into it. In your home, boruch Hashem, at least from the outside, there seems to be a lot of love among the siblings.

38:14 Speaker 2 Wow.

38:15 Speaker 1 I’m sure they fight too.

38:16 Speaker 2 A lot of people ask me about that.

38:18 Speaker 1 What’s the secret?

38:21 Speaker 2 From when they’re little. You know, it’s like Aharon Hakohen—speaking words of peace to each about the other.

38:29 Speaker 1 In Pirkei Avos this Shabbos.

38:31 Speaker 2 You just instill it in them constantly from a young age. Even if I—

38:37 Speaker 1 But where is there room for that? And what about jealousy between siblings?

38:39 Speaker 2 Sure, there is jealousy. I just don’t put the emphasis on it.

38:43 Speaker 1 So what do you do?

38:45 Speaker 2 The emphasis is: What do you have? Look how much you have. It’s not about how much he has. What he received is what he needs. Say a child’s shoe tears. Does it make sense for the mother to buy shoes for everyone, or only for the child whose shoe tore?

39:03 Speaker 1 Okay.

39:04 Speaker 2 So in this house, we see each child as an individual, with their own needs. We have fingers; they aren’t all the same height. They don’t all get the same number of rings. In other words, each person gets according to the needs they were born with and what they need right now. Once they understand that—

39:30 Speaker 1 What does that do?

39:31 Speaker 2 First of all, it cuts down on the comparisons: “Why does he get something and I don’t?” What do you need? That’s what I ask: “What do you need?” She just got some time with me and help with her bath.

39:43 Speaker 1 One child needs a great deal, and another doesn’t seem to need anything at all.

39:46 Speaker 2 Right. So it’s very important to take the one who doesn’t seem to need anything, see what he needs, and tell him, “You do need things.” Yes, you have to pay attention. You always have to pay attention to the quiet children. You always have to pay attention to the children who don’t ask for anything. The good ones, the people-pleasers—that’s the scariest. I say the messy children, the mischievous children, will manage in life. They know how to get what they need.

40:07 Speaker 1 Exactly.

40:08 Speaker 2 And the quiet children say, “No, this is enough for me. No, this is fine.” Yes, I have a child like that. We go on a shopping trip; everyone finds something, and he doesn’t. “No, I don’t need anything, I don’t need anything.” A pair of pants and a shirt are enough for him. He doesn’t need anything. So I buy it. I don’t care. You’re getting something new too, you’re getting something new. Fine, then I’ll buy it for you. You can stay outside; I’ll buy it. Because not everyone knows how to put their own needs forward.

40:34 Speaker 1 That’s where parents can—

40:34 Speaker 2 So there, okay, it’s up to my judgment. But yes, there needs to be some restraint with that.

40:41 Speaker 1 No, but what you’re saying is beautiful. How does it actually work? And is that the way that—

40:47 Speaker 2 That’s one point.

40:48 Speaker 1 Ah, okay.

40:48 Speaker 2 That’s one thing to pay attention to from a young age. When siblings are close in age, for example, you might dress them alike. My children have hated dressing alike since they were little, and I love it. It looks so beautiful. I love it, but I let it go. When don’t I let it go? At events where I want everyone to look the same. That’s that. Here I put my foot down. [unclear]. I don’t care if they don’t want to dress alike, and I promise them things and so on. I do give them some personal touch. With the girls, for example: “Okay, you’ll wear a clip and you’ll wear a headband. Choose something different.” Shoes in a different color. Fine.

41:22 Speaker 1 None of them likes it?

41:23 Speaker 2 No.

41:23 Speaker 1 Wow.

41:24 Speaker 2 They just don’t like it. There was a stage when they wanted to. It was a very short stage. It passed very quickly.

41:31 Speaker 1 Okay.

41:32 Speaker 2 They were excited about it. I don’t know exactly what happened there. I don’t know.

41:35 Speaker 1 Someone said something.

41:36 Speaker 2 Someone said something, and they got excited about it. But from a young age, you see that each one wants to dress differently. Fine. I allow it, and it’s fun.

41:48 Speaker 1 So what did you say the second point was?

41:50 Speaker 2 Ah, the second point is to say good things about each other. It’s like—

41:56 Speaker 1 To exercise that muscle of innocence.

41:58 Speaker 2 Right. Early in my marriage, someone I love and respect very much gave me a life tip. Yehudis Ari[?], the other actress I perform with—she has incredible life wisdom, and I remember how she helped me.

42:12 Speaker 1 You need to get her to come on the podcast.

42:13 Speaker 2 I don’t know. Maybe if it were audio only. She doesn’t like being filmed. But yes, I remember that she told me, at a time when things were very difficult between my mother and Yossi, my husband, and there were different opinions and so on. She said, “Michal, l-l-lie. Tell him she asked about him, that she asked how he was doing. Tell her he asked about you: ‘How are you?’” You know?

42:36 Speaker 1 So true. Really, really true.

42:38 Speaker 2 Really. And I took that into life in general. Between siblings too, and between...

42:43 Speaker 1 Wow.

42:44 Speaker 2 Just do it. Just do it. “Do you know how much your brother admires you? Do you have any idea how much he wants to be like you? Do you know what he said about you yesterday? I heard him tell his friend, ‘I wish I had a brother like that.’” Things like that. Come on, give them a little...

43:03 Speaker 1 Wow.

43:04 Speaker 2 Kind words. Spread them around.

43:06 Speaker 1 Wow, that really... And then they grow into teenagers, and you marry them off.

43:15 Speaker 2 Yes.

43:16 Speaker 1 Which is another level.

43:17 Speaker 2 Another level. Another level.

43:19 Speaker 1 Is that when you learn to keep your mouth shut?

43:21 Speaker 2 Yes. Wow. Yes, yes.

43:25 Speaker 1 After talking and talking and talking.

43:27 Speaker 2 Absolutely, yes. A shvigger needs to have, you know, her eyes closed, her ears shut, and her wallet open.

43:34 Speaker 1 Ah, that’s how it works.

43:35 Speaker 2 Yes. That’s how it goes. Really. Ah, yes, I also say—

43:41 Speaker 1 Is it hard?

43:43 Speaker 2 With certain things, it’s hard.

43:46 Speaker 1 Because why? Because you see them making a mistake, and you...

43:48 Speaker 2 Yes.

43:49 Speaker 1 And you have to keep your mouth shut.

43:49 Speaker 2 Yes.

43:50 Speaker 1 Okay.

43:51 Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And smile.

43:53 Speaker 1 Huh?

43:55 Speaker 2 Yes, it’s very hard, but I’ve let go of that too. I knew—I recognized that this stage would come. Okay.

44:06 Speaker 1 It just came very quickly, because it’s what you believe in and want.

44:09 Speaker 2 Right. Don’t forget, I’ve been playing a shvigger onstage for years.

44:13 Speaker 1 Ah.

44:14 Speaker 2 So I know that side of it—seeing the young couples, and what they think when she comes over like that, and what they think when... So I’m familiar with all of that.

44:24 Speaker 1 Ah.

44:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

44:25 Speaker 1 Excellent.

44:26 Speaker 2 Yes. Absolutely, absolutely. Give them a lot of warmth, a lot of love, a lot of closeness, because really—

44:32 Speaker 1 A lot of acceptance.

44:33 Speaker 2 A lot of acceptance.

44:33 Speaker 1 A lot of acceptance too.

44:34 Speaker 2 Because what matters is that they’ll want to come back again and again. What matters is that they’ll feel they aren’t being criticized, that they’re wanted, and that they have the right to choose.

44:48 Speaker 1 So you’re saying there’s no criticism at that stage. But with teenagers, do you criticize them?

44:53 Speaker 2 I can tell them my opinion.

44:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

44:57 Speaker 2 Meaning, I ask them, “Do you want to know what I think?”

45:00 Speaker 1 So you knock on the door first? You ask?

45:02 Speaker 2 Yes. “Do you want to know what I think about this?”

45:04 Speaker 1 What did you ask—

45:04 Speaker 2 One of my children just got a haircut, okay? Before Pesach, he told me he was going to get a haircut. When he came back, he said, “I got a haircut. I paid for it—I paid this much money for it.” I said, “Oh, where’s the haircut?” Okay? I couldn’t see that he’d had one. It wasn’t—it wasn’t noticeable. And now—

45:23 Speaker 1 He’s sure he got the most beautiful haircut.

45:25 Speaker 2 Yes. So he says to me, “Well, is it nice or not?” I said, “Do you want to hear what I have to say about it?” He says, “Yes.” I told him, “It’s awful.” He says, “Now I know it looks good.”

45:38 Speaker 1 Okay.

45:39 Speaker 2 Okay.

45:39 Speaker 1 You gave him exactly what he wanted.

45:40 Speaker 2 That’s it. He says, “I know that if the parents don’t like it, it looks good.” Okay, that’s the stage we’re at. I told him, “Great, that’s it. You’re happy? I’m happy. Peace at home.” That’s it.

45:49 Speaker 1 So what I’m hearing here is a lot of letting go, and a lot of respect too.

45:52 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

45:53 Speaker 1 Because I think the key word is respect.

45:56 Speaker 2 Right.

45:56 Speaker 1 If we can pass that on to the children in how they relate to one another, then that’s the formula.

46:03 Speaker 2 Absolutely, absolutely.

46:04 Speaker 1 So what do you wish for yourself?

46:09 Speaker 2 What do I wish for myself? Um...

46:14 Speaker 1 No, listen, you live in this rosy world. And I’m sure there are challenges too. I don’t think—you’re not painting a picture that’s, uh...

46:26 Speaker 2 The challenges is—they are, sorry, the challenges are, um, I think, conveying my relaxed attitude and acceptance. I can’t take it for granted that my husband will react the same way.

46:39 Speaker 1 What do you do when he doesn’t?

46:41 Speaker 2 First of all, that’s his response. And the children know I react differently from him.

46:45 Speaker 1 Which is wonderful.

46:46 Speaker 2 Yes. And—

46:48 Speaker 1 You’ve let go of that too.

46:49 Speaker 2 I’ve let go of that too. But I also work on it with him. I mean, I can give him a little heads-up. You know he’s going to come home with that haircut, if you can call it a haircut, so choose your words when you react, because, you know... Right?

47:06 Speaker 1 Okay, and—

47:06 Speaker 2 That’s it. And then whatever comes out, comes out.

47:09 Speaker 1 He had to do what he had to do.

47:09 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

47:11 Speaker 1 And what if you see him say something that really goes against your approach to raising the children and the way you see things?

47:18 Speaker 2 That happens a lot.

47:19 Speaker 1 Okay.

47:20 Speaker 2 A lot. A lot.

47:21 Speaker 1 What do you do?

47:22 Speaker 2 I don’t—no, no, no. He said it; that’s his. I mean, I would never contradict him in front of everyone.

47:29 Speaker 1 You wouldn’t contradict him, but inside yourself, what do you need to do? What do you need to change?

47:31 Speaker 2 Inside, I take a deep breath and let go too, and I tell myself, one day we’ll talk about it. I mean, uh...

47:39 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

47:39 Speaker 2 I have a lot of work to do. I mean, I’m different from my husband. We’re two completely different worlds. With every challenge that comes along, he learns new things.

47:53 Speaker 1 And do you feel that he trusts you and knows that what you’re doing works?

47:57 Speaker 2 He trusts me. Uh, I won’t tell you in everything. Ninety-nine point nine percent.

48:03 Speaker 1 Nice.

48:03 Speaker 2 There are still areas where he trusts me less, whether it’s finances, money, or various other little things that even I’m not sure I can trust myself with, so that’s okay.

48:15 Speaker 1 Okay.

48:15 Speaker 2 And that’s his.

48:16 Speaker 1 So that’s a hundred percent, yes.

48:17 Speaker 2 Yes. Um, and there are times when he’s right. There are times when he’s right; he has strong intuitions about a lot of things.

48:28 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

48:29 Speaker 2 And sometimes, with all my letting go, I can admit afterward that he was right.

48:35 Speaker 1 Wow.

48:35 Speaker 2 And I’ll tell him, “Listen, you were right.”

48:38 Speaker 1 Wow, so that’s also—

48:39 Speaker 2 “Your response was better.”

48:42 Speaker 1 That takes a lot of maturity. I once heard someone say, when the father says something different, he’s the children’s father. He’s the father Hakadosh Boruch Hu sort of—

48:54 Speaker 2 Right.

48:54 Speaker 1 And put a question mark over that too—over whether what the mother, what you’re saying, is right.

48:57 Speaker 2 Right.

48:58 Speaker 1 Over everything, really.

48:59 Speaker 2 Right. Sometimes children need to hear both sides too. I mean, there’s no question that there needs to be harmony and that we need to speak the same language, yes.

49:08 Speaker 1 I think that if there’s respect—

49:09 Speaker 2 But—

49:09 Speaker 1 The whole thing is respect.

49:11 Speaker 2 Exactly.

49:11 Speaker 1 If there’s respect between the father and mother, and we agree that we disagree.

49:16 Speaker 2 Right.

49:17 Speaker 1 As simple as that.

49:17 Speaker 2 Right, and children need to hear two opinions too. It’s not, not, not a terrible thing.

49:20 Speaker 1 No, nothing will happen to them—

49:21 Speaker 2 Nothing will happen to them.

49:22 Speaker 1 The problem is when—this used to happen to me—my husband could say something, and I wouldn’t have to say a word, but you could pick up over Bluetooth that...

49:33 Speaker 2 That—

49:34 Speaker 1 That my reaction was very, very strong, because I had the truth and I knew it. So, baruch Hashem.

49:41 Speaker 2 Right. We really need to recognize that the father is also part of this, he’s a partner...

49:48 Speaker 1 A full partner, and—

49:49 Speaker 2 A full partner. And if that’s what he said, then that’s what needed to be said at that moment, even if I didn’t like it a hundred percent. Um, and you can always sit down afterward and talk things through.

49:58 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

50:00 Speaker 2 And if one of you was wrong, you can come and apologize. It’s all okay.

50:05 Speaker 1 I think that’s the best education.

50:07 Speaker 2 Yes.

50:07 Speaker 1 So, here’s to lots of nachas for us.

50:10 Speaker 2 Amen.

50:10 Speaker 1 For everyone, because I really think nachas is part of—it’s a continuation of joy, isn’t it?

50:16 Speaker 2 Very much so.

50:17 Speaker 1 Having peace of mind and saying thank you to Hakadosh Boruch Hu. Nothing can be taken for granted.

50:23 Speaker 2 Right.

50:24 Speaker 1 That we have children and that they’re healthy. And how do you end it?

50:28 Speaker 2 Wait.

50:28 Speaker 1 It’s up there.

50:29 Speaker 2 Oh, uh, no, what’s this?

50:35 Speaker 1 No, that was—

50:35 Speaker 2 This is it—wait, wait. One second, one second, we have sounds here. That was laughter, that was cute. I’m trying, I’m trying. One second. Uh, that’s not it. Uh.

50:56 Speaker 1 You’re not gaining anything.

51:00 Speaker 2 Birds are so fitting, because sunrise is just a moment away. Wow. Wow.

51:07 Speaker 1 Really amazing.