Ears to Hear 18 | Halachic Ruling - The Rebbe Is King Moshiach

00:00 Speaker 1 And Hashem did not give you a heart to understand, eyes to see, or ears to hear.

00:08 Speaker 2 Ears to Hear. Audio programs for the students of the Temimim, from the World Atah organization.

00:15 Speaker 1 We came to him and started talking. He said, “If my signature is important to you, I’ll sign.” We didn’t need to explain anything. He already knew what it was about, and it was clear to him that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. It’s something we’re seeing more and more as we go along: many rabbis know the ruling by heart. It’s as though they were just waiting for someone to come and say, “Please sign.”

00:49 Speaker 2 Shalom aleichem to all the students of the Temimim, in Tomchei Temimim Lubavitch yeshivos throughout Eretz Yisroel and around the world. We’re beginning a special edition of our Ears to Hear audio series, a program suffused with a strong connection to the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach shlita, and to his central mission of bringing Moshiach. Today we’ll discuss the rabbis’ ruling that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach—a ruling that goes beyond the bounds of the world. We’ll speak with Rabbi Yitzchak Lifsh, chairman of Tzeirei Chabad in Tzfas, who coordinates the effort to obtain rabbis’ signatures on the ruling. We’ll discuss what the ruling means, the stories behind the signatures, and other fascinating matters that have not been made public until now. Before we begin, we’d like to dedicate this program. It is being released thanks to the generous support of its sponsors, and is dedicated in the merit of Yaakov Kalman ben Miriam, Shmuel Yehuda ben Miriam, and Mendel Akiva ben Miriam. Let’s begin our special program with Rabbi Lifsh. Shalom aleichem, Rabbi Lifsh. L’chaim, l’chaim.

02:08 Speaker 1 L’chaim to everyone joining us. L’chaim, l’chaim—may we already see the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, revealed in the third Beis Hamikdash. L’chaim, l’chaim.

02:17 Speaker 2 Amen, amen. L’chaim and blessings. Boruch Hashem, Rabbi Lifsh, we have the privilege today of sitting down for a special, fascinating program, particularly because of the behind-the-scenes stories connected with this subject. We’ll talk about the ruling that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach, and about stories, episodes, and things that happened behind the scenes. As we know, you have a great deal to tell us about it. But first, as a foundation for the whole program, perhaps we could hear about the importance of the ruling—its importance in Torah, in the Rebbe’s sichos and in Torah generally, regarding a ruling about Melech HaMoshiach. From there, with Hashem’s help, we’ll move through the rest of the program.

02:56 Speaker 1 At every opportunity—every opportunity—the Rebbe cited what is written in the Yerushalmi. It was established as halachah, and the Gemara brings the point into even sharper focus, concerning the verse, “To G-d, Who completes things for me.” What rabbis rule according to Torah and Torah judgment, as grounded in halachic rulings, Hakadosh Boruch Hu says, “I carry out what the rabbis say.” “To G-d, Who completes things for me.” The Rebbe also cited this many times when he asked rabbis to rule that the time for the Geulah had arrived. They should issue a ruling based on halachic sources, and then it is clear that the ruling has its effect.

03:41 Speaker 2 This was already true of the earlier rulings, going back to 5746, when there was a ruling that the time for the Geulah had arrived—even before the rulings specifically about Melech HaMoshiach.

03:51 Speaker 1 Absolutely. Actually, as early as 5721, we find the Rebbe asking rabbis who had arrived on Erev Yom Kippur to rule that Moshiach must come. At that point it was still something unfamiliar.

04:09 Speaker 2 It was an innovation.

04:11 Speaker 1 It really was an innovation. And the rabbis said, “Who are we to rule when the Rebbe is here?” That apparently caused the Rebbe a great deal of pain, because afterward, on Sukkos, when those who had come from Eretz Yisroel asked the Rebbe what to do—whether to observe two days of Yom Tov like people living outside Eretz Yisroel, or one day—the Rebbe replied that if they had issued the ruling, they could have avoided this. We would already have been in the Geulah, and the question would not have arisen. But from 5721 until 5746, I’m not aware of the Rebbe pressing and urging it. At least, I’m not aware of the Rebbe pushing it strongly. From 5746 onward, though, we see it many times, including behind the scenes. The Rebbe strongly encouraged it. Delegations of Chabad rabbis went and met with many rabbis, and the Rebbe very strongly encouraged the rabbis to rule that the time for the Geulah had arrived.

05:11 Speaker 2 That concerns the general ruling about the Geulah and the coming of Moshiach. Many rabbis joined it. The Rebbe asked the chief rabbis, and particularly Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, to work on this. So we’re talking here about the general ruling that the time for the Geulah had arrived. How did we get from there to a ruling about Melech HaMoshiach?

05:32 Speaker 1 That the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach.

05:34 Speaker 2 That the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach.

05:36 Speaker 1 On 28 Nissan there was a turning point—a change in Chabad’s way of thinking, and in what the Rebbe placed before the entire Jewish people through the way he spoke. It was clear that the Rebbe expected the chassidim to offer suggestions and take action concerning Moshiach.

05:59 Speaker 5 May it be Your will... Blessed are You, Hashem our G-d, King of the universe... [unclear] bring the redemption of our world.

06:06 Speaker 1 Of all the initiatives presented to the Rebbe, he accepted three and strongly encouraged them. One of the things submitted to the Rebbe was the study of subjects concerning the Geulah and Moshiach.

06:25 Speaker 2 Which came from the Temimim.

06:27 Speaker 1 The second was the written ruling drawn up on 30 Nissan at the home of Rabbi Ashkenazi, of blessed memory, the rabbi of Kfar Chabad. Rabbi Ashkenazi drafted it, and Dovid Nachshon was there as well. In that ruling, it already says that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach.

06:54 Speaker 2 You were at the meeting in Kfar Chabad, the emergency gathering held on Motzaei Shabbos after 28 Nissan.

06:59 Speaker 1 There was an emergency gathering, but this wasn’t that gathering. This was at Rabbi Ashkenazi’s home, with a small group.

07:06 Speaker 2 As I understood it, though—

07:07 Speaker 1 Beis Menachem.

07:08 Speaker 2 Did the decision come out of that gathering, or were they two separate things?

07:11 Speaker 1 It was already discussed at the gathering. Shmuel Fromer called it out and spoke about it—I think it was Shmuel Fromer.

07:16 Speaker 2 Yes.

07:17 Speaker 1 But afterward Rabbi Ashkenazi went home and drafted the wording. The wording was also printed in Dvar Malchus with [unclear]. It appears at the end of Sefer Shemos. You can see the date on it: 30 Nissan.

07:36 Speaker 2 That was the second initiative. The third thing the chassidim proposed, to which the Rebbe gave a response, concerned accepting the mission as a whole.

07:46 Speaker 1 They began gathering signatures from hundreds and thousands of Jews—men, women, and children—accepting the Rebbe’s kingship as Melech HaMoshiach. These were the three things the Rebbe encouraged. Later, the Rebbe spoke clearly about how, from the end of Nissan onward, something had happened concerning the Geulah. The Rebbe—

08:13 Speaker 2 You mean the sicha of [unclear] in 5751, where—

08:16 Speaker 1 Right. Immediately afterward, in the [unclear] sicha of 5751, the Rebbe speaks about a change for the good, particularly from the end of Nissan. These things took place at the end of Nissan. As you can see, the ruling Rabbi Ashkenazi drafted is dated 30 Nissan.

08:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

08:36 Speaker 1 Immediately afterward, Dovid Nachshon and Avi Taub traveled to give the Rebbe the ruling. There were nine signatories at first. Rabbi Heller told Dovid Nachshon, “I’m taking this on with mesirus nefesh. Whatever happens to you will happen to me.” They were very, very afraid of this idea, because until then the Rebbe had strongly rejected those who publicly announced that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. At first, as agreed, this ruling too was to be kept secret.

09:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:19 Speaker 1 They were very, very concerned about the Rebbe’s reaction and the reaction of chassidim, given the Rebbe’s responses in earlier years. So everything was done discreetly.

09:32 Speaker 2 But they did understand that the sicha of 28 Nissan had created some kind of opportunity.

09:36 Speaker 1 They understood that they had to do something. They didn’t yet know exactly what. They didn’t know whether the Rebbe would accept it or reprimand them, and the chassidim acted with mesirus nefesh. Nine rabbis signed. Dovid Nachshon—Rabbi Nachshon—decided to give it to the Rebbe not where everyone could see, but to wait for the Rebbe near the mikveh. Whenever the Rebbe traveled to the Ohel, he first went to the mikveh. On [unclear] Iyar, when the Rebbe was traveling to the Ohel, they waited for him near the mikveh. They approached the Rebbe with the ruling and told him that rabbis had ruled that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. He asked them, “Are there ten Jews who signed the ruling?” There were nine. They understood that the Rebbe wanted ten, and before the Rebbe came out of the mikveh, they were already on the phone. They got a tenth rabbi to sign—I believe it was Rabbi Chizkiyah from Milan, Italy—and then, when the Rebbe came out of the mikveh, he took the ruling. When they saw that the Rebbe took it, they saw that this could move forward—that the Rebbe was allowing it.

10:54 Speaker 2 The Rebbe also said “Yasher koach” about it, as recorded in the diaries. That gave the effort a further push.

10:59 Speaker 1 They saw that the Rebbe not only wasn’t stopping it—he was accepting it. As Shavuos, the festival of the giving of our Torah, approached, many rabbis came to the Rebbe. The rabbis then issued a new ruling, with new wording. As can also be seen in Amal Chassidim, in the transcriptions at the end, the new ruling says that, according to the Rambam, the Rebbe has the presumptive status of Moshiach.

11:36 Speaker 2 So the earlier ruling, on 30 Nissan, was a general ruling that the Rebbe had redeemed us, without reference to the halachah in the Rambam. The Shavuos ruling was more halachic.

11:45 Speaker 1 Perhaps the main innovation in the ruling of—

11:50 Speaker 2 Shavuos.

11:51 Speaker 1 Shavuos and onward—actually, before Shavuos, from the month of Sivan onward, a month after the first ruling—was that they added that the Rebbe has the presumptive status of Moshiach.

12:03 Speaker 2 Mm.

12:04 Speaker 1 Two of the rabbis immediately received a phone call from Rabbi Chadakov on the Rebbe’s behalf: “On what basis have you ruled about me?” Interestingly, this would happen from time to time with the Rebbe: the Rebbe would ask to speak to someone right then, and they would have to wake up whoever he had asked them to call. Rabbi Chadakov woke Rabbi Yaroslavsky—may he have many long, good years—and also called Rabbi Hendel in Montreal. He asked both of them the same question: “On what basis have you ruled about me?” Rabbi Hendel had also signed the first ruling. But since the rabbis saw that more rabbis—more than ten—were signing the second ruling, those who had signed the first one joined the ruling that said “the presumptive status of Moshiach.” And it was specifically about that ruling that the Rebbe asked, “On what basis have you ruled about me?” The remarkable thing was that they didn’t apologize or say, “We were wrong about the Rebbe, if this is causing him distress.” Each of them gave the same basic answer: that was how they understood the Rambam.

13:19 Speaker 6 That was the answer the Rebbe received.

13:21 Speaker 1 The Rebbe did not respond to it, and it continued to grow, with the Rebbe encouraging it behind the scenes.

13:28 Speaker 6 So the secret mission to the resting places of our Rebbeim was also connected to this ruling, right?

13:34 Speaker 1 There was a well-known question here: Why wasn’t the first ruling met with that question—“On what basis have you ruled about me?” It was specifically when they wrote “the presumptive status of Moshiach” that the Rebbe asked it. Perhaps the answer is that, in every generation, students have said of their Rebbe that he is Moshiach, as appears in the Gemara and in many sefarim concerning the Maharal of Prague and the Chasam Sofer. People said of various rabbis that they were fit to be the Moshiach of their generation, and so on. There is no problem with that, because a student should say that his Rebbe is Moshiach. Later, in the sicha for Parshas Tazria-Metzora, which the Rebbe edited shortly after receiving the ruling—the only time, I believe, that the Rebbe edited such an instruction—the Rebbe says that we chassidim must point to the Rebbe as Melech HaMoshiach. The Rebbe says, “And we chassidim follow them,” as they said in the Gemara, and we should say of our Rebbe that he is Moshiach. The Rebbe says this about the Frierdiker Rebbe. Until then, it was something general, the way students have always related to their Rebbe. But when they went beyond that and began saying “the presumptive status of Moshiach,” not merely that he was the Moshiach of the generation, the Rebbe asked, “On what basis have you ruled about me?”

15:01 Speaker 6 In other words, they brought it down to a halachic level [?], to a more specific determination that he is Melech HaMoshiach, on the way to becoming Moshiach. That was already a different category.

15:10 Speaker 1 Although some of the rabbis did not want to write the word “Moshiach”—they wanted to write only “presumptive status”—in another sense it gave the ruling greater depth, a sharper, deeper dimension. And the Rebbe sent—or approved the mission of—Dovid Nachshon and Avi Taub to travel to the holy resting places.

15:37 Speaker 6 I spoke about this after Shavuos.

15:40 Speaker 1 This happened after Shavuos. They traveled, receiving instructions all along the way. Interestingly, afterward they also read the ruling at the resting place of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, at the Kosel, and at the resting place of the Arizal. On 5 Menachem Av 5751, I got a call from Dovid Nachshon’s driver, Avi ben Zechariah. He told me that an instruction had just come from the Rebbe: the Rebbe was asking whether a Kohen, a Levi, and a Yisroel had signed the ruling. There was a Kohen, Rabbi Avelsky [?], and there were plenty of Yisroelim, but no Levi. So I called Rabbi Menachem Wolpo and faxed him the ruling, and he sent it straight back to me. By the time the delegation arrived to read the ruling at the Arizal’s resting place, there was a Kohen, a Levi, and a Yisroel; Rabbi Wolpo had signed too. All of this was kept secret from 30 Nissan, or from Sivan 5751, until suddenly, on Shabbos Parshas Mishpatim 5752, the Rebbe laid all the cards on the table. He revealed everything that had been hidden. The Rebbe himself had called them secret spies, as he discussed in Parshas Shelach—a hint for those who knew what it referred to. Suddenly, in public, the Rebbe said and revealed that a process connected with Moshiach had begun, specifically in 5752, specifically in Shvat 5752, and so on. It came about because our Rebbeim had done their work and had already said that the time for the Geulah had arrived. The Rebbe also said that the rabbis’ ruling that he was Melech HaMoshiach had had an effect. As part of the activities of Moshiach described by the prophets Yeshayahu and Michah—“they shall beat their swords into plowshares”—the process of “beating swords into plowshares” began as a result of the ruling.

18:10 Speaker 7 So this was essentially the first time the Rebbe referred to the ruling about the presumptive status of Moshiach. Because what the Rebbe said in the second Mishpatim sicha was that the ruling had permeated the world—a ruling that “a king will arise from the House of David.” So that is perhaps the clearest reference to the ruling.

18:25 Speaker 1 The Rebbe even quotes it directly. You can see a passage in the sicha where the Rebbe puts quotation marks before and after the words. The Rebbe is quoting passages from the ruling: one saying that there is already such a person, who has the presumptive status of Moshiach, and then the Rebbe continues to quote what the ruling says about the need for him to become Moshiach with certainty. All of that is part of the ruling from Sivan 5751. I don’t know of many other instances where the Rebbe publicly revealed what brought about our entry into a new phase within the era of the days of Moshiach, within the period the Rebbe was speaking about in 5751. We entered a special phase, and the Rebbe points to the ruling. As we said earlier, the Rebbe spoke about 30 Nissan, and then went further, saying that the ruling had permeated the world.

19:31 Speaker 7 Until then, the ruling had, in a sense, remained tucked away in the rooms of the rabbis and halachic authorities. When the Rebbe mentioned it in a sicha that was subsequently published in the press, the Rebbe, so to speak, “leaked” the ruling to the outside world.

19:50 Speaker 1 Yes. And that was the period leading up to 27 Adar, when the Rebbe revealed things he had not spoken about for many years, things people had not known. The Rebbe connected 7 Adar with 11 Nissan in Parshas Tetzaveh, in the last sicha edited by the Rebbe. In Mishpatim, the Rebbe revealed that “miyad” is an acronym: Moshiach, Yosef Yitzchak, and [unclear]. Suddenly, things that had once been discussed privately at farbrengens began to emerge, and the Rebbe shared them with all of the Jewish people—even more than any chossid could have imagined he might say openly. The Rebbe advanced this very powerfully. Sadly, looking at it from above downward, it was the Rebbe himself. In hindsight, we see that the Rebbe was preparing us for 27 Adar and Gimmel Tammuz. But from our perspective, we had no time to recover before 27 Adar came. The Rebbe took upon himself, as the verse says, “our illnesses he bore”: he suffered the stroke. Chassidim then tried to work out what to do, at farbrengens and wherever they were. As 11 Nissan approached, they prepared a text for Rabbi Yitzchak Hendel to read near the Rebbe on 11 Nissan.

21:32 Speaker 8 Upstairs, beside the Rebbe’s room.

21:34 Speaker 1 That ruling subsequently became very well known. When that happened, I understood, in light of what the Rebbe had said, that it would be very worthwhile to take the ruling and get as many rabbis as possible to sign it.

21:50 Speaker 8 So that is the central question we want to turn to in this program. After you’ve explained the significance of the ruling, the chronology of events, and the special attention the Rebbe gave it, where do you enter the picture? Where does Rabbi Lips enter the story of this ruling? What moved you? What brought you to it?

22:11 Speaker 1 What moved me was that sicha from Shabbos Parshas Mishpatim. Obviously, for every chossid it immediately gave—

22:21 Speaker 8 Did people grasp it already then, or—

22:22 Speaker 1 We didn’t know. We had no idea there was a halachic ruling being circulated and signatures being collected on such a scale. I had received a phone call from Avi ben Zechariah and heard about it, but I didn’t know it was such a large undertaking. After a sicha like that, every chossid immediately asks himself: What can I do about it? And around 11 Nissan, it was publicized that Rabbi Hendel had read a halachic ruling in the Rebbe’s presence. Copies of it were published—Zimron published it in Sichas Hageulah, and there was a... He put out a newspaper.

23:00 Speaker 8 The Geulah newspaper.

23:00 Speaker 1 The Geulah newspaper. So I took the halachic ruling and began collecting signatures and persuading rabbis and shluchim to get rabbis to sign as well.

23:13 Speaker 8 This was following 11 Nissan 5752. From then on, you began working to get rabbis’ signatures on the halachic ruling. Was there a push from a particular person or organization?

23:26 Speaker 1 No.

23:26 Speaker 8 Or was it your own initiative?

23:28 Speaker 1 It was—there’s a lot of strength behind it, and my leadership at Tzeirei Chabad in Tzfas encouraged it. Most of the leadership encouraged it. By the Shluchim Convention of 5753, many hundreds of rabbis had signed that ruling, including shluchim serving as rabbis.

23:49 Speaker 8 Nearly all their signatures came through you.

23:53 Speaker 1 Yes.

23:54 Speaker 8 In those days, with less technology than today, that must have meant getting signatures from rabbis overseas and in other parts of the world. It was a difficult, complicated process.

24:04 Speaker 1 The work was more primitive. We didn’t scan anything. We would paste on each signature, photocopy it and paste it on, and of course it didn’t always come out perfectly straight.

24:15 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm.

24:15 Speaker 1 That was... Sadly, Gimmel Tammuz suddenly came, and the wording of the halachic ruling had to be changed. The 5752 ruling said that the Rebbe should be healthy—healthy in all 248 of his limbs and 365 of his sinews. After Gimmel Tammuz, we understood that if we were going to approach rabbis, we needed to change the wording. So in 5755, you see several versions. In general, I have more than twenty versions—more than twenty versions of halachic rulings written and signed over the years about the signs of the Geulah and complete faith. They began to hint that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach.

25:06 Speaker 8 More than twenty versions.

25:07 Speaker 1 More than twenty versions signed by various rabbis. And in 5751, broadly speaking, there were two versions. Rabbi Yisroel Alperin, z"l, prepared one of them. He said, “Let’s write it this way: ‘shlita’ will be a problem for some people.” Instead of “shlita,” he wrote “Shiloh,” one of the names of Melech HaMoshiach. And in the ruling—

25:35 Speaker 8 People didn’t understand what those initials meant? Some did, and some didn’t.

25:39 Speaker 1 Some understood, but it wasn’t written out explicitly.

25:42 Speaker 8 Aha.

25:42 Speaker 1 The honorable head—

25:43 Speaker 8 As a hint.

25:45 Speaker 1 It says, “In accordance with the call of the Nasi of our generation, Shiloh.” So “Shiloh” can mean that, even though it appears as initials. But anyone who wants to can understand that Shiloh is also a name of Moshiach. So it says there, “the Nasi of our generation, Shiloh.” That was Rabbi Yisroel Alperin’s idea, and rabbis signed it. That was in Adar 5755, and quite a large number of rabbis signed it. There was another version that Rabbi Marlow, z"l, strongly encouraged, along with Rabbi Hillel Pevzner, also in connection with 28 Nissan 5751. It discussed “Do not withhold a hired worker’s wages overnight,” which the Rebbe spoke about in the sicha: until the work is finished, payment is not due. But when the work is finished—and the Rebbe said we had finished all the work, polishing the buttons, the work of birurim, everything—then the law of “Do not withhold a hired worker’s wages overnight” applies. Rabbi Marlow and Rabbi Pevzner signed that one, and we also began gathering many signatures for it in advance of—

27:11 Speaker 8 This was a halachic ruling about the Rebbe being Melech HaMoshiach, not a general ruling about the Geulah and the coming of Moshiach.

27:19 Speaker 1 The ruling itself says: “Therefore, His Holiness the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, must be revealed immediately—‘Your eyes shall behold the King in His beauty’—before the eyes of all flesh, down here below ten handbreadths, and he must immediately fulfill his role: build the Beis Hamikdash in its place, gather the dispersed of Israel, perfect the entire world and redeem us with an everlasting Geulah, now. And we will all proclaim together in a heralding voice: ‘Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu VeRabbeinu Melech HaMoshiach Leolam Vaed.’” Rabbis signed this—prominent rabbis such as Rabbi Hendel and Rabbi Marlow.

27:57 Speaker 8 So that was essentially a ruling connected to 28 Nissan 5751, following Rabbi Alperin’s wording that same year. From there we come to the current wording of the halachic ruling, whose approach changed entirely. It isn’t about the presumptive status of Moshiach or the law in the Rambam, but rather about the definition and basis of the law concerning a prophet: since the Rebbe said and hinted that he himself is Moshiach, then by virtue of his being a prophet, he is Melech HaMoshiach. That is what all those hundreds of rabbis signed. What brought about that change in wording?

28:30 Speaker 9 On 18 Elul 5757, the hundredth anniversary of Tomchei Temimim, there was a farbrengen at the yeshiva in Kfar Chabad. Rabbi Axelrod, may he live many years, Rabbi Yurkowitz, may he live many years, and Rabbi Ashkenazi, the rabbi of Kfar Chabad, z"l, were there. Rabbi Axelrod proposed an idea based on what the Rebbe said on Shabbos Parshas Shoftim 5751: the appointment of Melech HaMoshiach had already taken place, and all that remained was for the people to accept his kingship. In that sicha, the Rebbe asked, instructed and directed us to publicize that there is a prophet in this generation. So Rabbi Axelrod said—and he came up with an interesting idea—that we should accept the Rebbe as a prophet. That would also constitute accepting his kingship and publicizing that the Rebbe is a prophet. And because it rests on prophecy, even after Gimmel Tammuz it could not change. It was an appeal to all the Jewish people to believe that the Rebbe is a prophet and that he is Melech HaMoshiach. Rabbi Axelrod got Rabbi Ashkenazi and Rabbi Yurkowitz to sign. He knew I had been extensively involved with halachic rulings since 5752, so he contacted me and sent me the original signatures.

29:57 Speaker 8 Were you at the farbrengen in Kfar Chabad?

29:58 Speaker 9 What?

29:59 Speaker 8 Were you at the farbrengen in Kfar Chabad?

30:01 Speaker 9 No, I wasn’t. I don’t think I was at the farbrengen.

30:03 Speaker 8 He contacted you afterward.

30:04 Speaker 9 He contacted me either at the end of Elul or right at the beginning of Tishrei, and made sure I received the original signatures. He asked me to continue with it with full shturem. By then, Mateh Moshiach already existed, and there were—there were three rabbis, the rabbis of Mateh Moshiach, the same rabbis we spoke about earlier. He was essentially approaching me on behalf of the rabbis of Mateh Moshiach and asking me to take it on.

30:36 Speaker 8 So this had become a somewhat more official appointment—from Mateh Moshiach, Agudas Chassidei Chabad. In other words, collecting the signatures had become a more formal undertaking, if you can call it that.

30:46 Speaker 9 I received an appointment in writing, but he was the one driving it forward. The halachic ruling kept gaining momentum—very strong momentum. The ruling says, “Therefore, we are obligated to listen to everything he tells us.” That is already an appeal by the rabbis to all the Jewish people, saying that we are obligated to listen—

31:11 Speaker 8 To everything the Rebbe says.

31:12 Speaker 9 Because he is a prophet. And his announcement to us that he is Melech HaMoshiach is also part of the prophecy the Rebbe is publicizing. Betzalel Kupchik published it in the newspaper Hatzofeh in 5760, and it got a very strong response.

31:31 Speaker 8 When Rabbi Kupchik published that ruling, approximately how many signatures did it have?

31:37 Speaker 9 Uh, a hundred and fifty.

31:38 Speaker 8 A hundred and fifty signatures.

31:40 Speaker 9 Yes. And around that time, approaching 16 Tishrei 5760, we also put up huge posters throughout Jerusalem and other religious communities. Many people got involved: young married men and yeshiva students began handing out flyers with the ruling. Later they translated it into many languages and distributed the flyers. We began hearing questions and comments from all sorts of places... That ruling gained tremendous momentum.

32:20 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm. There’s something interesting here. When we want to see which rabbis signed the halachic ruling today, we look at the main ruling—the latest one, concerning the Rebbe’s being Melech HaMoshiach on the basis of prophecy. Were the signatures of rabbis who had signed the earlier rulings simply transferred to this one, or did you have to take another step and ask for their approval?

32:53 Speaker 9 Of course we had to ask for their approval. I have the original signatures of everyone who signed.

32:57 Speaker 8 So that meant more work for you.

32:59 Speaker 9 Each signature has the date on which it was signed, and of course every date shown has to be after 18 Elul 5757.

33:09 Speaker 8 So 18 Elul 5757 is really the latest, updated halachic ruling. From then on, all the rabbis who had signed earlier also affirmed the updated text with their signatures.

33:18 Speaker 9 Those who signed earlier—

33:20 Speaker 8 Are no longer around.

33:21 Speaker 9 We can’t reach them. Some of them are no longer alive. But in principle, I’m not specifically going back to those who signed on previous occasions. Those who signed have never written that they regret it.

33:32 Speaker 8 Right.

33:33 Speaker 9 And we keep going. In other words, in addition to the original signatures, there are more signatures here. A very large number are new: either rabbis who became rabbis and halachic authorities in later years, or veteran rabbis we hadn’t managed to reach before. And as we draw closer to the days of Moshiach, many rabbis accept the Rebbe’s kingship over them and understand that he is Melech HaMoshiach. They see that very serious people have signed it, and that prompts them to study the subject.

34:09 Speaker 8 That’s a really interesting point. You’ve traveled to so many places and met so many rabbis. Most of these conversations weren’t phone calls; you went in person to obtain their signatures. So you must have been in the homes of great rabbis from all sorts of different backgrounds. It would be interesting to hear some behind-the-scenes stories—at least about some unusual signatures.

34:35 Speaker 9 First, we should say that on this halachic ruling you can see every segment of the Jewish people: Ashkenazim, Sephardim, chassidim, Litvaks, rebbes, Perushim, people whom hundreds and thousands approach for a blessing, and so on. Every kind of rabbi, great Torah scholars—you see them all signed on the ruling. I should make clear that many, many rabbis did not sign, but in private conversations they say plainly that they understand the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. Some even say it to their students and their chassidim, even though they don’t sign.

35:32 Speaker 8 In other words, there’s a certain fear of signing something that will be made public, but in a private conversation with you they stated their firm, genuine view.

35:41 Speaker 9 I’ll give you the example of the Toldos Aharon Rebbe. He used to visit Tzfas very often. There were years when he came here every year for two or three weeks. When he came to Tzfas, the places he regularly chose to daven were either the main Chabad shul in Heichal Avi Yitzchak or the large yeshiva in Tzfas. We approached him several times. I also approached him with Beis Hillel, several times. He studies the Rebbe’s sichos a great deal, including those on Geulah and Moshiach. On one visit, five of his attendants came with him to the shul, and I even saw some of them studying the Rebbe’s maamarim in Rashi script. They’re connected to this. So I approached him again and asked him to sign. In front of the five men accompanying him, he said, “The very fact that my chassidim know which shul I choose to daven in when I come to Tzfas—and they know what’s written on the shul, what’s written inside it, and what’s announced after every davening—is enough for all my chassidim to know what I hold.” Of course, he was referring to the—

37:01 Speaker 10 That’s what he told you?

37:02 Speaker 9 Yes. That’s what he told us.

37:06 Speaker 10 So with all the rabbis who signed the halachic ruling, you could say you have a personal story about each one, or—

37:13 Speaker 9 Certainly about many of them.

37:15 Speaker 10 If I throw out a name now, maybe there’ll be an interesting story.

37:18 Speaker 9 Certainly.

37:19 Speaker 10 Once I was riding the 613 bus from Bnei Brak toward Kiryat Sanz in Netanya, and I met a Sanzer chossid there. We talked about a few things, including Moshiach’s birthday. We discussed it back and forth, and then I showed him the halachic ruling and the signature of Rabbi Shmerler of Sanz. He was stunned, completely stunned. That signature was—

37:41 Speaker 9 Rabbi Shmerler—Rabbi Eliyahu Shmerler’s signature—made a tremendous impact in Eretz Yisroel and around the world. Rabbi Shmerler is a member of the Shas party leadership. He was a Jew who did not involve himself in politics, an outstanding Torah scholar, and head of the Sanz yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel and around the world. His signature really caused a stir. He was well versed in the Rebbe’s sichos, well versed in— When he came to stay in Tzfas, we arranged a meeting with him. He said, “You don’t need—I don’t need any special formalities. I can sit with you right here in the shul.” We agreed to meet after Maariv. Rabbi Lasker was at the meeting, along with me—may we be distinguished for long life—and Rabbi Orenstein. We began talking. I said—

38:39 Speaker 10 Heichal Yitzchak.

38:40 Speaker 9 Yes. I said, “The Rebbe says in the sicha of Mishpatim 5752...” He didn’t even know what the meeting was supposed to be about. I didn’t need to add a single word. He immediately began reciting the entire Mishpatim 5752 sicha from memory. He knew it extremely well by heart. He said, “I’m a positive person. I think one should sign,” and he added his signature. His signature led to several things. First, Rabbi Bistritzky z"l would regularly ask me from time to time how the halachic ruling was coming along. He himself had not signed.

39:18 Speaker 10 Rabbi Levi Bistritzky.

39:19 Speaker 9 Yes, yes. After Gimmel Tammuz, he was concerned about how it would be received. But he would ask from time to time, and when he heard that Rabbi Shmerler had signed, he said, “You should know that from now on, no rabbi in the world will be able to ask you, ‘Who signed this halachic ruling?’ You have a very strong, very significant signature here. You should know that.” I personally hadn’t realized just how prominent and well known Rabbi Shmerler was. Later, I met Rabbi Shmerler’s son, Rabbi Chaim Shmerler, at his home. Rabbi Chaim told me he had heard from his father about two things that led him to sign: one positive and one negative. On the positive side, he said that he once heard of someone traveling to the Rebbe. It was shortly before Tisha B’Av. He gave the traveler a book, one of the latest books he had published at the time, and asked him to bring it to the secretariat in Brooklyn, to give his book to the Rebbe. This followed other books he had already sent the Rebbe. At that time, many of the replies sent to Eretz Yisroel came through Rabbi Chaim Shalom Segal of Afula.

40:44 Speaker 11 Of Afula.

40:46 Speaker 9 So he said that on the evening after Tisha B’Av in Eretz Yisroel, while it was still Tisha B’Av for the Rebbe, Rabbi Shmerler received a phone call from Rabbi Chaim Shalom Segal. He told him, “The Rebbe asked me to convey that your book was received on the eve of the day on which Melech HaMoshiach was born.” He said, “How interesting.” First, the Rebbe made an effort to connect everything with Moshiach right away. And second, he said, “What tremendous Ahavas Yisroel the Rebbe has.” The Rebbe was in the middle of a fast, yet he understood that hearing the book had arrived and receiving an acknowledgment could bring me joy. So the Rebbe didn’t let the fact that he was fasting hold him back. He immediately made sure that the reply would be sent while it was still Tisha B’Av for him, so that Rabbi Shmerler would receive it. He said, “The Rebbe’s tremendous Ahavas Yisroel, and the way the Rebbe connects everything with Moshiach.”

41:47 Speaker 11 That’s the positive side.

41:48 Speaker 9 That’s the positive side. On the negative side, he also used to visit a Litvish man’s home. After a Rambam siyum—he had attended the first Rambam siyum—he went to visit this man. The man told him, “You’re not crossing the threshold. You’re not coming into my house.” He asked, “What have I done to you?” The man said, “You were at the Rambam siyum.” He replied, “But nobody spoke against you.” The man said, “I know, but you were at the Rambam siyum, which the Rebbe promoted. So you have no place in my house.” He said, “I understood. I understood that I had no place there, that I had no reason to be impressed by them, and that I didn’t need to think twice about what they would say. Those two things together—the Rebbe’s Ahavas Yisroel and the opposite of that elsewhere—led me to sign.” Afterward—

42:43 Speaker 11 That’s what Rabbi Shmerler’s son related.

42:45 Speaker 9 Yes, Rabbi Chaim Schmerler told me this. After he signed, Rabbi Glukhovsky, the secretary of the Chabad Rabbinical Court, heard about it. He said, “Well, if Rabbi Schmerler signed, then we have to sign.” He told me—it was in the summer, when there was an Ohr Shel Moshiach camp in Migdal HaEmek—“I’m coming from Migdal HaEmek to Tzfas, and I’ll sign it with you in Tzfas.” And that’s what happened. I met him in Tzfas the next day, and he signed. These were Chabad rabbis who had been wondering how it would be received by the wider world. After Rabbi Schmerler signed, it became clear: look, there’s no problem at all.

43:25 Speaker 11 Rabbis outside Chabad got Chabad rabbis to sign.

43:31 Speaker 9 Yes. That too.

43:31 Speaker 11 One of the interesting signatures—I’m looking at the ruling right now—is Rabbi Yoram Abergel’s. We all know how devoted he was to the Rebbe, and what an enthusiastic chossid he was in his own distinctive way, but—

43:45 Speaker 9 There are also recordings of him saying that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and his students know it. Among the signatories is a rabbi from Beitar who signed in recent years, the head of a rabbinical court there. He’s a Yemenite Jew and a student of Rabbi Abergel’s, and he signed immediately. He had no questions. He understood; he already knew. He said, “Of course, the Rebbe fits all the Rambam’s criteria.”

44:15 Speaker 11 A student of Rabbi Abergel’s.

44:17 Speaker 9 Absolutely.

44:17 Speaker 11 A student of Rabbi Abergel’s.

44:18 Speaker 9 A student of Rabbi Abergel’s.

44:21 Speaker 11 So he influenced his students on this matter too.

44:25 Speaker 9 Yes, he influenced his students, and he wasn’t embarrassed to say it publicly. He said the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. Rabbi Yitzchak Mualem.

44:33 Speaker 11 Rabbi Yitzchak Mualem. So he signed the ruling recently?

44:37 Speaker 9 Relatively recently.

44:38 Speaker 11 Mm-hmm.

44:39 Speaker 9 He signed about a year ago, maybe a year or a year and a half ago. There was a wedding in Kfar Chabad, and I saw various people going up to him. Rabbi Yisroel too, because I understood he was a rabbi. Yoram Abergel told me, “He’s a relative of mine. His name is Rabbi Mualem.”

44:55 Speaker 11 Yes, he’s a highly regarded rabbi in the city.

44:57 Speaker 9 Yes.

44:58 Speaker 11 So that was an extension of Rabbi Abergel’s signature and his students’ signatures on this whole matter of the ruling. And there are other signatures, from the Nadvorna Rebbe and other rebbes. Were those signatures easier to obtain?

45:15 Speaker 9 The Nadvorna Rebbe—the Nadvorna Rebbe of Tzfas—was an extraordinary chossid of the Rebbe. After his passing, we came to understand various things and appreciate him, though we hadn’t appreciated him enough while he was alive. For one thing, even when he was very frail, elderly and frail, and spent most of his time lying in bed—his home and shul were right next to each other, with just two steps between them—he wouldn’t go to shul because the steps were so difficult for him. They would open the door so he could hear the Torah reading and Kedushah. But on 19 Kislev and Gimmel Tammuz, he made an extraordinary effort to come. We would choose a hall he could enter without climbing steps. It would take him fifteen minutes, half an hour just to get out of the house, and another fifteen minutes to get from the car back into the house. But he made that tremendous effort to attend, and he never wanted to speak. Whenever he was invited to speak, he would ask them to start the Rebbe’s niggun. What’s very interesting is what he called the Rebbe’s niggun. He would say, “Start singing, you know, ‘And He will redeem us again.’” He didn’t call it “He is our G-d.”

46:36 Speaker 11 “And He will redeem us again.”

46:37 Speaker 9 “He will redeem us again.” Later we understood what lay behind that.

46:40 Speaker 11 When did you approach him to ask him to sign?

46:43 Speaker 9 He also signed the first ruling immediately after 11 Nissan 5752. His son-in-law, of blessed memory, later told me about it. He had a son-in-law who was perhaps a Belz chossid; that son-in-law’s father was a dayan in Belz. He lived with the Nadvorna Rebbe in Tzfas at first and was a member of his household for many years, until the Nadvorna Rebbe passed away. He told me, “You should know, there was a wealthy man who donated to the Nadvorna community in Tzfas, and he stopped donating solely because of that signature.” After Gimmel Tammuz, we came to him as well—may he be granted long life. I came with Rabbi Orenstein. He signed the ruling immediately.

47:45 Speaker 11 Even though he knew it could hurt him again in terms of...

47:47 Speaker 9 He wasn’t concerned at all about what people might say, or whether someone might—I don’t know—whether it might cost him financially. Not at all. He was an extraordinary Jew, truly a giant. Despite his age, he had utter bittul to the Rebbe. Sixteen-year-old boys from the yeshiva would come to him without even arranging it beforehand. He would be in the middle of giving a shiur, and they would come in and say they wanted to review a sicha of the Rebbe’s. They didn’t even realize what they were doing: coming to an elderly man, a Rebbe, while he was speaking, and saying, “We want to review a sicha of the Rebbe’s.” He would always say, “Oh, the Rebbe?” He would close the book. “Of course—the Rebbe! Go ahead and review the Rebbe’s sicha.”

48:31 Speaker 12 Wow.

48:32 Speaker 9 He had tremendous bittul to the Rebbe.

48:40 Speaker 12 From the Nadvorna Rebbe to the Karlin Rebbe, Rabbi Rosenfeld.

48:43 Speaker 9 Of Pinsk-Karlin. First, let me give a little background.

48:47 Speaker 12 I remember that in Meron a few years ago, one of the main photos that Ata published was a photo of the Karlin Rebbe. It had quite an impact.

48:57 Speaker 9 First, let me give a little background. Years ago, one of the Karlin rebbes passed away, and his son was very young. He also wasn’t a great Torah scholar, and Karlin split in two. The Karlin rabbis said they should choose someone from an earlier branch of the dynasty, a descendant of one of the rebbes from several generations back who was a great Torah scholar. Many of the Karlin rabbis chose the Pinsk-Karlin Rebbe. He was known as a very great Torah scholar, a Jew who sat and learned with tremendous diligence. I believe he was a descendant of Rabbi Aharon of Karlin. For a long period, he also studied Chassidus with Rabbi Zalman Landau as a chavrusa.

49:54 Speaker 12 Mm-hmm.

49:56 Speaker 9 So we went to see him, my brother and I. I remember that the clock on his wall showed twenty to two. He asked a very straightforward question, one many rabbis ask. The heading at the top says “Halachic Ruling.” It doesn’t say “Prayer,” “Belief,” or “Request.” A halachic ruling needs a halachic basis. So why must it refer specifically to the Rebbe, and not to a great tzaddik from an earlier generation—the Baal Shem Tov, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, or King David? I showed him a note by the Rebbe, note 6 in the sicha on Parshas Vayigash in Likkutei Sichos, volume 35. The point of the note is to reconcile the Yerushalmi and the Rambam, so there is no disagreement between them. On this reading, they both hold that if there is a situation the world calls death, it must be the most recent tzaddik, the one who laid the groundwork for the Geulah, and not someone from an earlier generation. As soon as he saw it, he said, “Yes, it cites the Rambam here. That’s a halachic source.”

51:06 Speaker 12 Rava said that he himself must bring about the resurrection of the dead for all those who will rise then. He has to be from immediately before the Geulah, not from an earlier generation.

51:15 Speaker 9 The Rebbe discusses this here and cites the Rambam, so it’s a halachic matter. The Rambam is a halachic authority. He said, “Yes, the Rambam—that’s a source. I’ll add my signature.” He said, “I have an infected sore on my leg, a boil, so I didn’t go to the mikveh today. Come back tomorrow at this time.” That’s why I remember it was twenty to two. “I’ll make a special effort to go to the mikveh despite the sore.”

51:38 Speaker 12 Wow.

51:40 Speaker 9 “And I’ll sign.” We came back, and he welcomed us gladly. He put on a gartel and opened the Rambam. He said that according to halachah, if the book of a halachic authority is there beside you, you must open it and read it inside before issuing a ruling. He looked inside and studied the Rambam, chapter 14, of course. When he finished studying the Rambam, he happily signed the ruling that our Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach.

52:13 Speaker 12 Interesting. I can see Rabbi Weiss’s signature here, from Yeshivas Achiezer in Bnei Brak. I assume that was connected to the most active person in Bnei Brak working on this, or...?

52:22 Speaker 9 He used to come here in the summer. He was an enthusiastic chossid of [unclear]. He was a student.

52:27 Speaker 12 His connection is well known, but to the point of signing?

52:30 Speaker 9 He was a student of the Minchas Elazar, and the Rebbe mentions the...

52:36 Speaker 12 The Munkatcher.

52:36 Speaker 9 The Munkatcher, the Minchas Elazar, several times in connection with Moshiach: his faith, and the demand he made of the Jewish public concerning Moshiach—that the demand for Moshiach should be like the three... The demand for Moshiach should be like the three transgressions...

52:54 Speaker 12 For which one must be killed rather than transgress.

52:55 Speaker 9 And it must not pass. Rabbi Weiss told us several times that in his Erev Yom Kippur talks, the Munkatcher Rebbe, the Minchas Elazar, would invite all the townspeople. It was one of the times when he had the largest crowd. He would tell everyone: Don’t ask for money, don’t ask for a livelihood, don’t ask for health. The most important thing on Yom Kippur is to say that you are prepared to give up everything, as long as Moshiach comes already.

53:26 Speaker 12 They had that feeling; they really did. The matter of Moshiach burned in the Munkatcher Rebbe, and certainly in his students. It reached Rabbi Weiss too, to the point that he signed the ruling accepting the Rebbe’s kingship.

53:34 Speaker 9 Yes, he had already studied the Rebbe’s sichos. He was already a chossid of the Rebbe. There are several other very interesting names here. There’s a relatively recent signature from Rabbi Yisroel Lemberger. He came to Tzfas, and I saw his tallis on one of the tables in our shul, Levi Yitzchak. I saw the name Lemberger written on it. That’s a very familiar name; there’s a family by that name in Kiryat Ata. The Makova Rebbe is very highly regarded. Then I saw someone from Rabbi Lemberger’s community walking beside him and carrying something for him. I asked, “Tell me, who is this Lemberger?” He said, “What do you mean? He’s the son of the Makova Rebbe.” I took the rabbi to visit him. We went over to him in the shul, and when we got there, I saw him with Ateres Rosh by the Mitteler Rebbe. He was really studying the deep teachings of our Rebbeim. We came over and started talking. He said, “If my signature is important to you, I’ll sign.” We didn’t have to discuss it at all. He already knew what it was about, and it was clear to him that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. It’s something we see more and more as we go along: many rabbis know the wording of the ruling by heart.

55:01 Speaker 12 Interesting.

55:01 Speaker 9 And it’s as though they were just waiting for someone to come and say, “Come sign.”

55:05 Speaker 12 In other words, from the perspective of exile and its darkness, someone looking at it negatively might think that as time passes, the matter is fading and there’s much less chance of rabbis signing. But it’s the opposite. The more it spreads, the more influence it has and the more deeply it takes hold.

55:22 Speaker 9 Good people have distributed, and continue to distribute, the ruling in every language, and...

55:28 Speaker 12 In a sense, when a serious rabbi has even a little connection to the matter and cares about it, he sees the ruling and says, “When will I have the opportunity to fulfill this and sign it?”

55:38 Speaker 9 I met a rabbi once. I went into a shul and saw people coming up to a particular man with halachic questions. I understood that he was a rabbi. I approached him with the ruling, and he signed it on the spot.

55:55 Speaker 12 What’s his name?

55:56 Speaker 9 Rabbi Moshe Yosef Tischler. He’s the head of a beis din for monetary matters and a member of Rabbi Wosner’s beis din. He saw that I was standing there, surprised, without saying a word. As he signed, he said, “Don’t worry. It’s true that I read the wording of this ruling two years ago, but I know it by heart, and I know exactly what I’ve signed.”

56:22 Speaker 12 Wow.

56:24 Speaker 9 But I was still standing there like that. So he said, “I’ve also seen the Rebbe.” I know people who were with the Rebbe and still haven’t signed. He said to me, “I’ll tell you. One night I was asleep and I saw the Rebbe in a dream. I asked the Rebbe a Torah question I had, and the Rebbe told me that such-and-such a book discusses the subject in chapter 148.” It’s interesting that the Rebbe didn’t say “kuf-mem-ches”; he said “chapter one hundred and forty-eight.” He said, “When I woke up, I couldn’t remember whether the Rebbe had said book A or book B. I went straight to the library, took out one of the books and looked at chapter 148. I didn’t see any reference to the question. A few days later, I happened to see book B on one of the tables in the shul. I opened it.”

57:25 Speaker 12 Book B—the other book he thought the Rebbe might have mentioned.

57:27 Speaker 9 He remembered that the Rebbe had said either this book or that book, but he couldn’t remember which. He looked in the second book, exactly where the Rebbe had said, and there was a discussion of his question. So he said, “Well, the Rebbe leads us and continues to lead us in an amazing way.”

57:42 Speaker 12 It’s so amazing to see how warmly the rabbis respond, and how...

57:49 Speaker 9 I was walking with my brother in Bnei Brak. He said, “Look, there’s a Litvish rabbi here who’s friendly toward Chabad. He probably won’t sign, but let’s go see him.” His name is Rabbi Daniel Ganasia. He’s originally from France. He’s married either to the Baba Sali’s daughter or to his granddaughter. He’s a man who lives an ascetic life, and it’s not for show. Truly, “Eat bread with salt and drink water in measured amounts.” We went into his home. The furniture was very old. He didn’t even have a landline phone in the house. “What do you want?” We explained that we had come to ask him to sign a ruling that the Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach. He immediately answered, “You don’t need to bring proofs that the Rebbe can be Moshiach even after Gimmel Tammuz.” He immediately began citing sources: “It says in the Zohar here and here,” and so on. There are sources showing that there’s no problem calling the Rebbe Moshiach. “But,” he said, “to say it’s only the Rebbe—how can I say today that it’s specifically the Rebbe?” I said, “Let’s open the Rambam and see. When does the Rambam say that someone presumed to be Moshiach loses that status? Either he was killed or...” He immediately said, “Yes. The Rambam himself distinguishes between dying and being killed in several places, in the laws of nezirus and elsewhere.”

59:12 Speaker 12 He was aware of the distinction regarding being killed.

59:13 Speaker 9 He knew right away, by heart, that the Rambam himself also says, “or he has not succeeded thus far.” In other words, if a Jew today asks whether he can call the Rebbe Moshiach: if, on Gimmel Tammuz, the shluchim had handed back their keys and left their places of shlichus, and people had stopped setting up tefillin stands, and so on, then he would not be Moshiach. He became very enthusiastic. He said, “Yes, you’re right.” In his living room, we saw three pictures: a picture of the Baba Sali, a picture of the Chazon Ish, and a picture of that other man. He gestured toward them and said—by the way, I didn’t see a picture of the Rebbe anywhere in the living room. He gestured toward them and said, “With all due respect to them, and with all due respect to Rabbi Ovadia, no one is involved in spreading Judaism the way Chabad is. Just now, someone told me about a tefillin stand in Tel Aviv where someone came and knocked down the man who was putting on tefillin. As soon as he got up, he said, ‘I’m going to continue putting on tefillin.’ Nothing like that exists in any other group in the world.” After he signed, he said...

1:00:23 Speaker 12 One second—he said, “With all due respect to them.”

1:00:26 Speaker 9 He signed.

1:00:27 Speaker 12 Uh-huh.

1:00:27 Speaker 9 And he signed right away.

1:00:28 Speaker 12 That was the way the rabbi put it.

1:00:30 Speaker 9 He said, “With all due respect to them,” pointing to the three pictures he had, “and with all due respect to Rabbi Ovadia, no one spreads Judaism the way the Rebbe does.”

1:00:41 Speaker 12 And then he turned to you to write.

1:00:42 Speaker 9 And then he signed. After signing, he said, “And when I was sixteen, I wrote a letter to the Rebbe.” He said, “I was never with the Rebbe.” I don’t know whether “never” meant up to the time he was sixteen or even to this day. He said, “From the Rebbe’s reply, I understood very clearly that the Rebbe knew me extremely well.” Well, then it’s clear that he’s a prophet too.

1:01:02 Speaker 12 It was that simple, the whole thing.

1:01:04 Speaker 9 After visiting him, on another occasion we went to another well-known Litvish rabbi in the area. By the way, Rabbi Daniel Ganzfried has two Sephardic-Litvish shuls in Kiryat Herzog. So we went to another rabbi who lives nearby. He has a network of kollelim; he’s a mohel, and he has students who are mohalim today. We came to him too. He had two pictures, of the Chazon Ish and of [unclear]. He saw that Rabbi Daniel Ganzfried had signed. He said, “You know, that man from Bnei Brak. Understand?” I said to him, “Look, I have a simple question for you. Every rabbi leaves a legacy. A great, righteous rabbi leaves some legacy: Ahavas Yisroel, buildings he built, Torah institutions he established, a world of Torah, and so on. Mikvaos. What did that man leave you besides scorched earth, fire and fighting?” He said, “All right, all right, let’s not talk about him.” He signed immediately, and that was that. It’s very interesting. People hang a picture...

1:02:11 Speaker 12 Interesting.

1:02:12 Speaker 9 ...on the wall, and they know that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

1:02:15 Speaker 12 Really interesting. Rabbi Ganzfried, whom the rabbi mentioned, is actually descended from—or connected to—the Abuchatzeira family.

1:02:21 Speaker 9 I said he was married into the family.

1:02:22 Speaker 12 Married into the family.

1:02:22 Speaker 9 Either to the Baba Sali’s daughter or to the Baba Sali’s granddaughter.

1:02:25 Speaker 12 And we can see that in the ruling too. We’re talking here about the Abuchatzeira family: Rabbi David Abuchatzeira, rabbi of the Kiryat Eliezer neighborhood, and Rabbi Eliyahu Abuchatzeira too.

1:02:34 Speaker 9 Who is the deputy.

1:02:35 Speaker 12 Deputy to the Abuchatzeira Rebbe.

1:02:37 Speaker 9 There’s also, uh...

1:02:39 Speaker 12 We’re talking about the halachic ruling.

1:02:40 Speaker 9 There are a great many of them, and it’s clear that this probably comes from the great affection between the Baba Sali and Baba Meir, the tremendous respect they had for the Rebbe, and the way they instilled it in the family. Rabbi David Abuchatzeira of Nahariya once told me that the whole city knew the annual 19 Kislev celebration and farbrengen took place at his grandfather’s home. Another Jew—I was at the Rambam’s resting place for his yahrzeit on 20 Teves, and I saw someone who looked to me like a rabbi. I approached him, and he signed on the spot. He stayed to say a few chapters of Tehillim, and afterward he came over to me. His name is Rabbi Yaakov Twersky, and he is the rabbi of the Rachmastrivka community in Boro Park. He said to me, “Look, I happened to be with the Rebbe when the Rebbe instituted the daily study of Rambam. Since then, I’ve studied one chapter of Rambam every day.” So he said, “It’s clear to me. I have no question at all that the Rebbe is Moshiach.” He signed too.

1:04:00 Speaker 12 A signature from this past year.

1:04:01 Speaker 9 What does it say? He told me right away, and signed right away.

1:04:03 Speaker 12 A signature from this past year.

1:04:05 Speaker 9 The one from 20 Teves hasn’t appeared on the pages yet; you can’t see it yet.

1:04:11 Speaker 12 Interesting. So we surely have more interesting stories if we go through all of them.

1:04:17 Speaker 9 What’s very interesting is that many, many of the rabbis, even those who don’t sign, come without cameras or tape recorders. They sit with you and tell you stories personally—amazing stories about the Rebbe. When we visited one of the Belzer Rebbes in Bnei Brak, I was there with my brother, and he said, “I want to tell you a story.” He said the story also appears in—there’s video footage of it. This is what happened: There were a lot of sirens in the Gush Dan area during the Gulf War. Missiles were landing; people heard the booms and the Iron Dome, and so on. It was a Thursday, and that Rebbe’s wife told him she couldn’t bear to stay in Bnei Brak any longer. They had to leave the area until the danger passed. He told her, “But the Rebbe said that Eretz Yisroel is the safest place, and there’s no need to worry.” She said, “If the Rebbe had told me that personally, it would calm me. But he said it in general, and that doesn’t calm me.” They agreed that his brother, who was in America at the time, would go to the Rebbe on Sunday and ask on their behalf. They called his brother. When the brother passed by the Rebbe, he said, “My brother in Bnei Brak asked me to inquire. He and his wife want to know whether they should leave Bnei Brak.” The Rebbe told him, “My opinion is already known: They shouldn’t leave; they should stay where they are.” The Rebbe gave him a dollar, and he started walking away. About five people had passed by the Rebbe when the Rebbe sent for him to come back. Of course, when someone has already walked away and the Rebbe calls him back, it attracts far more attention, right? Everyone asks, “Why did the Rebbe call him back? What happened?” If the Rebbe had said it then and there, fewer people would have known

1:06:20 Speaker 9 about it. So the Rebbe called him back and said, “I’ve told you my opinion. But if your brother leaves, or has already left the city, I have no objection to them doing so. Here’s a dollar for him and a dollar for his wife.” What turned out to have happened? By Motzaei Shabbos, his wife couldn’t bear it any longer.

1:06:44 Speaker 12 They had already left.

1:06:44 Speaker 9 They had already left. They simply hadn’t called his brother to tell him he didn’t need to go to the Rebbe. So he said, “You can see the Rebbe’s prophecies here, absolutely clearly.” He took a copy of my book Inyano Shel Moshiach and undertook to speak publicly in his Chassidic community, repeating passages and ideas about Moshiach. Other rabbis who receive the books do this too; afterward, you hear about it from various people. We also visited the Yenuka.

1:07:15 Speaker 12 He’s been in the headlines lately and has become—

1:07:17 Speaker 9 He’s been in the headlines for a long time. He’s a great Torah scholar and a great supporter of Chabad. He often quotes the Rebbe’s letters and the Frierdiker Rebbe’s letters.

1:07:26 Speaker 12 He also ends every Torah talk by singing Chabad niggunim. It’s...

1:07:31 Speaker 9 I was told in advance that they’d arrange a meeting with him sometime that evening, but apparently the person who promised me that—

1:07:38 Speaker 12 Mm-hmm.

1:07:39 Speaker 9 It didn’t quite—

1:07:41 Speaker 12 Work out for him.

1:07:41 Speaker 9 It had been arranged with one of his attendants, but that attendant wasn’t there. We arrived and were told to come at 9:45. With some special help, we finally got in at midnight, ahead of part of the line. He was standing there under a small night-light, and the attendants were pleading with everyone not to stand in line; there was no time to talk. I left him my book Zman Hageulah. He had already received Inyano Shel Moshiach. He said, “All right, sit down. I’ll look at it; I’ll see.” I left him the halachic ruling too. Soon afterward, I heard from several people—and his students also publicize this from time to time—that in his talks, he sometimes says, “The Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, said...” And when the Temimim from Rishon LeZion came to repeat a sicha, he stood up and said, “Let us welcome the students, the shluchim of the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.” He does this mainly on Shabbos and Yom Tov. Apparently it still can’t be recorded, but these things are said publicly, and his students publicize them.

1:08:46 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. It really is interesting and moving to see all the renewed interest in this subject. One point before we finish: Chabad rabbis who signed relatively recently—I mean people like Rabbi Avishay or Rabbi Braun[?], rabbis who have come to prominence as Chabad rabbis in recent years—did any rabbis ask to change the wording? Was there anything like that?

1:09:11 Speaker 9 Fairly early on, in 5778, a rabbi told me, “If you remove two words from the halachic ruling—just the words ‘forever and ever’—I’ll sign, and I’ll get other rabbis to sign too.”

1:09:25 Speaker 3 [unclear].

1:09:26 Speaker 9 Yes, of course. I told him, “Look, you have every right to write whatever wording you want and get whoever you want to sign it. But I can’t change this wording.” By then, some of the rabbis who had signed had already passed away. I told him, “We can’t change the wording; they signed this. If you want, you can join them.” He said, “I’m telling you, I also believe that the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, celebrates Gimmel Tammuz differently from the way Chabad chassidim celebrate it.”

1:09:57 Speaker 3 So if someone now wants to sign a differently worded halachic ruling, he can’t change this wording, because hundreds of rabbis have already signed it. This is the wording.

1:10:06 Speaker 9 It goes both ways. Some people wanted to sign and add “shlita” and the like. I told them that wouldn’t be right, because any rabbi could then say, “That’s not what I signed.”

1:10:18 Speaker 3 If a change were made, that rabbi hadn’t signed it. So we can say that not a single word of the halachic ruling has changed since 18 Elul 5777. The ruling remains in force, exactly as it was from the moment it was written until now, through all the signatures.

1:10:33 Speaker 9 There was a slight change after the first six signed, made by Rabbi Meir. Then the first three rabbis came back and signed again.

1:10:44 Speaker 3 Interesting. So as we stand today, how many signatures would you say the halachic ruling has?

1:10:51 Speaker 9 More than four hundred signatures have already been published. The latest version of the halachic ruling to make the headlines and be publicized has over four hundred signatures.

1:11:06 Speaker 3 Here we can see the latest date on which the halachic ruling was updated: 9 Tishrei 5784. And if—

1:11:12 Speaker 9 I have more rabbis whom I haven’t included here yet.

1:11:15 Speaker 3 Who still haven’t—

1:11:15 Speaker 9 I mentioned the rabbi of Rachmastrivka in Boro Park.

1:11:20 Speaker 3 As we approach the end of the program, what are you looking toward? The Rebbe’s revelation, of course.

1:11:26 Speaker 9 May he be revealed immediately, right now.

1:11:27 Speaker 3 Of course.

1:11:29 Speaker 9 I really recommend that everyone who can publicize the halachic ruling do so. It’s very important. It has an amazing effect in every area. My brother-in-law, Rabbi Yaakov Shmuelevitz, z"l, was a shliach in Beit She’an. He would distribute both Sichas Hashavua and Sichas Hageulah in various religious kibbutzim around Beit She’an. He used to receive some assistance from a kibbutz secretary. One day, he arrived at one of the kibbutzim to distribute the material and found that the secretary had changed. The new secretary said, “I won’t give you a penny. You’re distributing things here about the Rebbe being Moshiach.” My brother-in-law said, “I distribute other material too.” He replied, “I don’t care.” My brother-in-law told him, “But rabbis have signed it.” He said, “What are you saying? Rabbis? If you say rabbis signed it, I believe you. I thought it was just some group of guys who were—”

1:12:24 Speaker 3 Delusional.

1:12:25 Speaker 9 Delusional, or whatever you want to call them—irresponsible. But if you tell me that the rabbis signed, I apologize, and I’ll continue to support it. And he gave a larger sum than he had previously given toward the cost of this publication. Now, over the years, there were bochurim who, for one reason or another, decided to print only some of the rabbis’ names. And there were times when, unfortunately, the bochurim weren’t always familiar with the wider world. They saw someone with the title “Rebbe” and immediately included him, while, to be fair, they omitted rabbis of enormous standing. So the gain was outweighed by the loss[?].

1:13:14 Speaker 3 Consult with people who are known in different circles—consult with them.

1:13:18 Speaker 9 Or with the yeshiva rabbis, or with people who know. Because there are rabbis who are very prominent, certainly in certain circles.

1:13:25 Speaker 3 You need to know whom to put up front appropriately.

1:13:28 Speaker 9 We do take into account those we placed at the beginning, and so on. Generally, the first rows run lengthwise, not across. The rows on the right or the left—or usually the top three or four rows—are generally rabbis who are meant to be more prominent and well-known.

1:13:52 Speaker 3 More well-known. So, essentially, the first three or four rows, and the rows farther to the right.

1:13:56 Speaker 9 The two rows on the right, and the first row or two. One or two rows on the right and, generally, the row on the left, or two rows on the left. Of course, there are also great rabbis in the middle.

1:14:09 Speaker 3 Of course.

1:14:11 Speaker 9 I didn’t push all the great rabbis to the top.

1:14:13 Speaker 3 And that really is an interesting question. Someone listening to us now—among the Temimim and the administration, who also have the ability to influence additional rabbis—if they know of a particular rabbi who might sign, they can contact you. But the initial point is really interesting: How do we identify a rabbi who would sign the ruling? What’s the first criterion?

1:14:32 Speaker 9 It’s worth approaching even rabbis who won’t sign. You approach a rabbi, and it’s also worthwhile to come with a book. Sometimes I come with Inyano Shel Moshiach, Zman Hageulah, Besuras Hageulah, and the like.

1:14:44 Speaker 3 But what’s the minimum criterion for signing the current ruling? A synagogue rabbi? A rabbi?

1:14:49 Speaker 9 A synagogue rabbi. Anyone serving as a rabbi—it’s worthwhile to get his signature now.

1:14:54 Speaker 3 That doesn’t mean just anyone. That’s not the whole point.

1:14:55 Speaker 9 Anyone who really wants to go and obtain signatures, and not just approach a rabbi in his neighborhood and hand it to him, should consult his administration and his personal rav[?].

1:15:06 Speaker 3 They can also consult with you, Rabbi Lips, of course, to know.

1:15:10 Speaker 9 The holy Rebbe gave authority to the administration and to one’s personal rav[?]. And especially since not every rabbi is the same, Hakadosh Boruch Hu helps me. I always pray that Hakadosh Boruch Hu will help me. With one rabbi I discuss certain sichos; with another I discuss the Midrashim and Gemara. The impact is tremendous, and afterward it spreads further.

1:15:32 Speaker 3 Thank you very much, Rabbi Lips, for this special program. It was truly fascinating and interesting. We’ve even gone past the time when we were supposed to finish.

1:15:40 Speaker 9 In the sicha of Shabbos Parshas Mishpatim, the Rebbe spoke about how we will already see the King in His splendor. After that, we’ve seen only the beginning of his activity.

1:15:48 Speaker 3 Amen. With Hashem’s help, may we merit the true Geulah.

1:15:50 Speaker 9 L’chaim, l’chaim.

1:15:51 Speaker 3 Immediately, right now. L’chaim and blessings.

1:15:52 Speaker 9 Long live our master, our teacher, and our Rebbe, King Moshiach, forever and ever.

1:15:56 Speaker 3 L’chaim, l’chaim! Thank you very much, Rabbi Lips.

1:15:59 Speaker 4 Ears to Hear, audio programs for the students of the Temimim, from the Or Yomi website. For more programs, dial *6358. Long live our master, our teacher, and our Rebbe, King Moshiach, forever and ever.