The Laws of Reciting 'Vesein Tal Umatar' - Rabbi Shai Shimon Cohen shlita

00:02 Speaker 1 You’re listening to “Lema’an Yishme’u,” a podcast from Machon Halacha Chabad.

00:09 Speaker 2 Let’s talk a little about the laws of asking for rain. Soon—how do you put it?—Tishrei will be behind us, and we’ll begin asking for rain. It’s very important to know the relevant laws. Of course, the most practical and common question is: What if I forgot? I forgot to say “Vesein tal umatar.” What do I do? Do I go back or not? Do I say it somewhere else? So let’s go in order. First, on Simchas Torah we began mentioning rain—“Mashiv haruach umorid hageshem”—but if you omit that, you don’t repeat the prayer. Why? Because it’s simply a mention of Hakadosh Boruch Hu’s praise: that He causes the wind to blow and the rain to fall. If you didn’t mention that praise and mentioned only that He brings down dew, well, nothing happened; that’s fine. But asking is different. Winter is coming, and we need rain. If you didn’t ask for rain, the fact that you asked for dew doesn’t solve the problem. I need rain. Dew alone isn’t enough. So, how do you put it? The bottom line is that if you didn’t ask for rain during the rainy season, you need to repeat the prayer. Although if, instead of saying “Vesein tal umatar,” you said only “Vesein matar,” you don’t have to repeat it. Why? Because dew is never withheld; it doesn’t stop. There’s always dew. So we ask for it as part of the enactment of the Sages, but it’s not, how do you put it, an urgent need for us to ask for dew to fall. What if I don’t remember? That may be the most common question. I don’t remember whether I said it or not. The halacha here simply depends on how much time has passed. If thirty days have already passed, we assume the person said what

02:16 Speaker 2 his tongue is accustomed to saying. After thirty times asking for “Vesein tal umatar,” you presumably kept up the pattern and said what you were used to saying. If thirty days haven’t passed yet, you presumably said what you had always been used to saying, and you need to repeat the prayer. There’s another law specific to the chazzan. What if the chazzan made a mistake? If, during his silent prayer, the chazzan didn’t say “Vesein tal umatar” and said “Vesein beracha” instead, the halacha is that he doesn’t need to repeat it. Why the special treatment? Actually, it isn’t special treatment. It’s simply that he’s going to say it again anyway, aloud, during the repetition of the Amidah. So he doesn’t need to repeat the silent prayer as well. Now, we’ve said in general that you need to go back. Let’s get into the details: exactly when, and where do you go back to? In general, anyone familiar with the siddur knows that, according to our wording, we ask for rain right after “ve’es kol minei sevu’asah letovah.” What if I didn’t say it there? I went a little further in the blessing and then—oops—I remembered I’d missed it. Well, say it where you are and continue; that’s fine too. If you’ve already said “Baruch Atah Hashem, mevarech hashanim,” that’s also fine. Say “Vesein tal umatar livracha” after “Baruch Atah Hashem, mevarech hashanim,” and continue with “Teka beshofar gadol.” Even if you’ve only said Hashem’s name—you said, “Baruch Atah Hashem,” and then, “Oh, wait, what do I do? I forgot the rain!”—that’s all right. Finish the blessing, say “Vesein tal umatar livracha,” and continue with “Teka beshofar.” Everything is fine. Ideally, the request for rain belongs in Birchas Hashanim, where we ask that the year be blessed. What if I finished “mevarech hashanim,” went on to “Teka beshofar,” continued, and only remembered later? What do I do?

04:27 Speaker 2 I have another chance, another place to stop: the blessing of Shema Koleinu. For anyone who doesn’t know, Shema Koleinu is a general blessing. There we ask, broadly, that Hakadosh Boruch Hu hear our requests. According to halacha, that’s also where anyone can ask for whatever they want. It’s the place to put in what’s on your heart. So if you’ve finished Birchas Hashanim, begun “Teka beshofar,” and only then remembered that you didn’t ask for rain, say it in Shema Koleinu. After the words “umilfanecha Malkeinu reikam al teshiveinu,” say “Vesein tal umatar livracha.” What if you went on? You already said “umilfanecha Malkeinu reikam al teshiveinu, ki Atah shomei’a tefillas...” and then remembered. What then? It’s the same idea as with Birchas Hashanim. If you’re still in the middle of the blessing, say it wherever you remember. If you’ve already said “Baruch Atah Hashem, shomei’a tefillah,” say it after “shomei’a tefillah,” before the next blessing: “Baruch Atah Hashem, shomei’a tefillah. Vesein tal umatar livracha. Retzei Hashem Elokeinu...” Even if you’ve said Hashem’s name but haven’t finished “shomei’a tefillah,” don’t interrupt between Hashem’s name and “shomei’a tefillah.” Finish “shomei’a tefillah,” and then begin the blessing of “Retzei Hashem Elokeinu.” Now, what if I’m really absentminded? What if I’ve already started saying “Retzei” and only then remember that I didn’t say “Vesein tal umatar livracha”? Well, there’s no choice. You didn’t say it, so you have to go back. And since you’re going back anyway, don’t go back to Shema Koleinu, which is a sort of after-the-fact solution. Instead, go back to Birchas

06:27 Speaker 2 Hashanim, say “Vesein tal umatar livracha” there, in its proper place, and then continue through all the following blessings. And if your mind was somewhere else entirely, and you’ve already finished Shemoneh Esrei and finished “Yihyu leratzon”—which “Yihyu leratzon”? The second one—and only then remembered, you can’t go back to the middle of the prayer. That doesn’t work. In that case, you have to pray the entire Shemoneh Esrei again, from beginning to end, properly. Now we have a few interesting, unusual questions. First, what if it’s Rosh Chodesh and a person said “Ya’aleh veyavo” but forgot to ask for rain? Well, he forgot to ask for rain, so we said he has to repeat the prayer, right? We’re talking about someone who remembered only after he’d finished praying. Fine, he has to repeat it. He repeated it and did ask for rain, but now he forgot to say “Ya’aleh veyavo.” The first time he forgot the rain; the second time he forgot “Ya’aleh veyavo.” According to halacha, you have to repeat the prayer if you omit “Ya’aleh veyavo.” But the question here is: Can I combine the two prayers? He said “Ya’aleh veyavo” in one and asked for rain in the other, so is that enough? Do they count together or not? Or do we say that neither prayer is valid, so it’s no good? What’s the ruling? This isn’t stated explicitly in the Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Aruch. Later authorities discuss it and say that it’s a matter of doubt. It’s not a simple issue, so he should pray again as a voluntary prayer. Halacha allows a person to offer a voluntary prayer—“If only a person would pray all day long.” So here’s an opportunity. True, usually a voluntary prayer requires some change to make it clear that it’s voluntary. But since this prayer is being said because of a doubt, that’s fine; no change is needed. That’s one point. The second is: What if I remembered too late, after the time for that prayer had passed? Say I prayed Mincha, forgot to ask for rain, had all sorts of things to do and phone calls to make, and then suddenly remembered: “Oh no! I forgot the rain!” But now it’s already time for Maariv; people are praying Maariv. What do I do? The first prayer doesn’t count at all, and I need to make it up. At the next prayer, I pray Shemoneh Esrei twice. That’s only if I remember before the next prayer or immediately afterward. If some time has already passed after the next prayer, I can no longer make up the previous one, because a makeup prayer can only be offered in connection with the following prayer, not much later. Another point about makeup prayers: What if I forgot to ask for rain, it’s time for the next prayer, and I need to make up the one I missed, but they ask me to lead the prayers as chazzan? What then? Do I pray my own prayer, then the makeup prayer, and then repeat the Amidah as chazzan? No, there’s no need to overdo it. The chazzan’s repetition can count as the makeup prayer. And the last topic we’ll discuss is interesting too. What if I forgot to ask for rain at Mincha on Erev Shabbos? You might say, “Rabbi, what difference does it make? Mincha on Erev Shabbos, Mincha after Shabbos—what’s the difference? A prayer is a prayer, right?” But there’s a problem. I forgot to ask for rain at Mincha on Erev Shabbos. So what, according to halacha, do I need to—and the time for that prayer has passed,

08:36 Speaker 2 It’s a case of doubt, so that’s fine; there’s no need to make a change. That’s one point. The second point is: what happens if I remember too late? In other words, the time for that prayer has already passed. Say I davened Mincha and forgot to ask for rain. Then I had all sorts of things to do, all sorts of phone calls, and who knows what else, and suddenly I remembered: Oh no! I forgot to ask for rain. But what can I do now? People are already davening Maariv; it’s time for Maariv. What should I do? The first prayer doesn’t count at all, and I need to daven a make-up prayer. At the next prayer, I daven Shemoneh Esrei twice. That’s only if I remember before the next prayer or immediately afterward. If some time has already passed after the next prayer, I can no longer make up the earlier one, because a make-up prayer is only said as part of the next prayer, not much later. Another point about make-up prayers: What if I forgot to ask for rain, and now it’s time for the next prayer and I need to make up the one I missed, but they tell me, “Come lead the davening; we want you to be the chazzan”? So what do I do? Daven my own prayer, then a make-up prayer, and then the chazzan’s repetition? No, no need to go overboard. The chazzan’s repetition can count as the make-up prayer. And the last topic we’ll discuss is interesting too. What happens if I forgot to ask for rain during Mincha on Erev Shabbos? Now, you’ll say to me, “Come on, Rabbi, what difference does it make? Mincha on Erev Shabbos, Mincha on Motzaei Shabbos—what difference does it make? A prayer is a prayer, right?” But there’s a problem. The problem is that I forgot to ask for rain during Mincha on Erev Shabbos. So according to halachah, I need to—and the time for that prayer has passed,

10:42 Speaker 2 So at Maariv I need to pray twice. But what am I supposed to do? At Maariv I won’t be asking for rain. In any case, we don’t ask for rain on Shabbos. On Shabbos there are only the first three blessings, the last three blessings, and the middle blessing, which is about Shabbos. Either way, I won’t be asking for rain. So what do we do? Is there any point in my praying again? The later halachic authorities disagree about this. Rabbi Chaim of Brisk says that one does need to pray again, even though he won’t ask for rain, and he has his reasoning. He says that the Mincha prayer you said is considered as though you didn’t pray Mincha. You didn’t mention rain; that’s a problem. The prayer isn’t a prayer. Well, you didn’t pray Mincha, so you need to pray Maariv twice. Simple. You won’t ask for rain? What difference does that make? At Mincha you needed to ask for rain and you didn’t, so that wasn’t a prayer. When you pray Maariv twice, you don’t need to ask for rain, so everything is fine. That’s what he says. It’s an interesting line of reasoning, but in practice, Rabbi Chaim Naeh says no in the Luach Kolel Chabad. He says no, because the whole point is to make up for not asking for rain. Prayer, after all, is asking Hashem. I ask for this, I ask for that, I ask for something else. Now, if I’m not going to go back and ask for it anyway, what have we gained? Prayer is requests. I ask for Geulah, I ask for a livelihood, I ask for healing—I ask. Now, if in the next prayer I’ll ask for what I left out of the previous one, it’s worth praying again. But if I won’t be asking for it anyway, then we haven’t gained anything. So he says not to pray Shemoneh Esrei twice at Maariv, because I won’t gain anything by it. This time we’ll talk about a slightly

12:45 Speaker 2 less common issue concerning “Vesein tal umatar.” In general, everyone knows that in the summer we say in the blessing for the years, “And grant blessing upon the face of the earth.” In the winter we say, “And grant dew and rain for blessing upon the face of the earth.” We don’t want to interrupt before Shemoneh Esrei, so someone knocks on the table and the congregation knows that we’re switching the wording to “Vesein tal umatar livrachah.” Now, when exactly do we start asking for rain? In Eretz Yisroel it’s very simple; everyone knows that we start asking for rain at Maariv on the night of 7 Cheshvan. As is known, we really should have started asking for rain right after Sukkos, but so that the rain wouldn’t trouble those returning from the pilgrimage, they waited until all the pilgrims had reached their homes, and then began asking for rain. The Gemara says, however, that in Bavel it’s different. In Bavel they start asking for rain sixty days after tekufas Tishrei. In other words, without getting too deep into astronomy, the solar year is divided into four seasons: tekufas Tishrei, tekufas Teves, tekufas Nissan and tekufas Tammuz. Tekufas Tammuz is the height of summer, tekufas Teves is the height of winter, tekufas Tishrei is autumn—the height of autumn, if you can call it that—and tekufas Nissan is the height of spring, the middle of spring. The year is divided into four equal parts. Usually we don’t deal much with the tekufos. This is one of the areas where a tekufah matters. In Bavel, they say “Vesein tal umatar livrachah” sixty days after tekufas Tishrei. When exactly does that fall? You can look it up in a calendar; let’s not get into that now. But it’s interesting to note that there is a rather difficult halachic debate about this. What do I mean? The Gemara says that in Bavel they ask for rain sixty days

15:45 Speaker 2 after tekufas Tishrei, which is later than 7 Cheshvan. It explains that the reason is that Eretz Yisroel is mountainous. The rainwater runs down the mountains, so water is scarce; there’s nowhere to draw it from. It’s hard to reach the groundwater, wells and so on. So there’s no choice: they need to ask for rain early. But Bavel is low-lying, so it’s relatively easy to reach the groundwater. The need for rain isn’t as urgent, and they can ask for it sixty days after tekufas Tishrei, which is a later date. Now, the Shulchan Aruch already brings an opinion, originating with the Rosh, that says this: Usually, when there is a disagreement between the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, we do follow the Babylonian Talmud, because it is the primary authority. But here, they say, the question of rain isn’t about the Babylonian Talmud versus the Jerusalem Talmud. It’s about when rain is needed. So every country should ask for rain when it needs it. Saying that the whole world should follow Bavel makes no sense; this is a matter of actual conditions. Bavel asks when it needs rain, and Eretz Yisroel asks when it needs rain. So when should they ask in France, or Canada, or wherever else? Each place according to its own conditions and needs. That’s what the Rosh writes, and his reasoning really does sound very logical. But in practice, the Alter Rebbe says, the custom is not to make distinctions: only in Eretz Yisroel do they ask on 7 Cheshvan, while everywhere else in the world they ask sixty days after tekufas Tishrei. Now, in recent generations an even more difficult question has arisen. We know that the world is a globe. The earth is a globe. Summer and winter are reversed in its two hemispheres. That means when it’s summer in the upper half, it’s winter in the lower

18:15 Speaker 2 half. By the lower half I mean Australia, South America, Africa—the lower half of the globe—and vice versa. So summer and winter are reversed. When it’s our rainy season and we need rain, it’s summer there. When it’s our summer and we don’t want rain, it’s winter there. So what do we do? This caused a great deal of uncertainty among the later rabbis. Some said—and this is the prevalent custom—that we don’t make distinctions: just as in the rest of the world, people in the Southern Hemisphere ask for rain from sixty days after the tekufah until the eve of Pesach. It isn’t their rainy season? That doesn’t matter. Others said no: they can’t ask for rain when it’s not appropriate for them, so they don’t ask for rain in that blessing at all. They should ask for rain during their winter in the blessing of Shomeia Tefillah, where you can add whatever requests you want. They need rain, so they should ask for it there. But to ask for it as part of the standard wording of the blessing when they don’t need it would be absurd, so they don’t ask for it there at all. And there is a third opinion. The third opinion says they should ask according to their own needs, because those are their seasons and that’s when they need rain. Now, in practice, the Rebbe addressed this in a sicha. The Rebbe said that at first glance, it really seems clear that they should ask when they need rain. It’s simple: everyone asks for what they need when they need it. But then the Rebbe said that this was only a line of reasoning to consider, not a practical ruling. In practice, as we said, the halachah is that they ask as in Bavel, as in the rest of the world. And it seems that the reason is what we said earlier: really, every place in the world should have asked according to its own needs. The reason everyone follows Bavel is so as not to create divisions, so as to

20:49 Speaker 2 Not to change the custom. Since we are not asking for our own needs, but are following the practice everywhere so as not to create a dispute, there is no difference between the northern and southern hemispheres: everyone begins asking at the same time. Now that raises a question: What should someone do when they travel from one place to another? What happens with a young man who was at 770, where 7 Cheshvan passed, and only afterward arrived in Eretz Yisroel—or the other way around? What about someone who couldn’t travel during Tishrei, travels later, spends 7 Cheshvan there, and then comes back? So the rule is this. Let’s start with the simple cases. Clearly, when you’re in a place, you follow the practice of that place. Even if I’m Israeli, when I’m outside Eretz Yisroel, I ask as they do there. And even if I live outside Eretz Yisroel, when I’m in Eretz Yisroel, I ask as they do there. That’s straightforward. But what happens if I’m Israeli, I was in Eretz Yisroel on 7 Cheshvan and began asking for rain, and afterward I traveled abroad? Do I have to stop asking for rain? That’s a more complicated question. In practice, the halachah is that he should continue asking. He’s already begun, so he should continue asking for rain. True, no one around him is asking for rain. That’s fine, but he should. Rabbi Chaim Naeh addresses this and says: Wait, how should he ask when no one there is asking? He says that when he says, “And grant dew and rain for blessing upon the face of the earth,” he should have Eretz Yisroel in mind. After all, he is a resident of Eretz Yisroel. His livelihood is there.

23:15 Speaker 2 His family is in Eretz Yisroel; all his affairs are there. So although he is currently abroad, where they are not yet asking for rain, he is asking for his own needs, for Eretz Yisroel. When he says “upon the face of the earth,” he should specifically have Eretz Yisroel in mind. What if he forgot to ask? He does not need to repeat the prayer. He can rely on the fact that they are not yet asking there. Now what if he is asked to lead the prayers? That could create a dispute. So ideally, it’s better for him not to lead; he should excuse himself and let them find someone else. What if he’s a mourner[?]? Or what if he simply goes up to lead and suddenly realizes, “Wait, what do I say?” In that case, to avoid a dispute or a change in practice, he should not ask for rain. There’s another interesting question: What if a group of ten or more people were in Eretz Yisroel and traveled abroad together? Since they are an entire group, there is no concern about a dispute or people splitting into separate factions. So they can ask for rain both in the silent prayer and in the chazzan’s repetition; there is no problem with that. What if someone who lives abroad happened to be in Eretz Yisroel on 7 Cheshvan and began asking, but then returns abroad? Since his main affairs are abroad, he should stop. While he was here, he prayed with the community and asked for rain. But when he returns abroad, where his main affairs are, he should stop asking for rain. So far we’ve been talking about traveling abroad. What about the reverse? Someone was abroad and then travels to Eretz Yisroel. He hasn’t yet begun asking for rain abroad,

25:20 Speaker 2 and suddenly he arrives on 10 Cheshvan, or 11 Cheshvan, or 12 Cheshvan—it doesn’t matter when—and in Eretz Yisroel they began asking for rain some time ago. If he is a resident of Eretz Yisroel, then although he was abroad on 7 Cheshvan, once he arrives in Eretz Yisroel he should begin asking immediately, from his first prayer there, just as the people of Eretz Yisroel do.