Connection to Essence | Episode 1 | Beginnings

00:00 Speaker 1 So how are you, Sarah’le?

00:01 Speaker 2 Chani, how are things? I just want to say, you spend your whole life interviewing people.

00:05 Speaker 1 I don’t interview people. I have conversations.

00:06 Speaker 2 Conversations, and you get curious. So with this podcast, people should get to hear you too.

00:12 Speaker 1 I’m here, I’m completely here. We’re both in this together.

00:14 Speaker 2 Forget it, I’ll make it available to watch too.

00:15 Speaker 1 We’ve had chances to farbreng. We farbreng, we talk, we’re friends, and it’s always fun talking with you. And I love podcasts. I love the platform.

00:24 Speaker 2 Wow, so really.

00:25 Speaker 1 And you’ve got the equipment at home, and I happen to be at your place. See how easy it is to connect?

00:29 Speaker 2 Sorry, sorry.

00:30 Speaker 1 Of course. So first of all, thank you for being willing to do this. That—

00:37 Speaker 2 Wow, this isn’t easy for me.

00:38 Speaker 1 I know.

00:38 Speaker 2 It’s really not easy for me.

00:39 Speaker 1 Do you want to put that on the table for a moment and move on?

00:41 Speaker 2 Yes. I want to say that we’re starting this podcast knowing that... if we don’t want to, we’ll shelve it. If I don’t want to, because you have no problem with it. And the second thing is that, as far as I’m concerned, right now it’s for you and me. I mean, it could stay in a drawer, and in twenty years we’ll open it and say, “Wow, we talked, and we were young, and now we’re getting wrinkly.”

01:02 Speaker 1 And we had fun talking, and it’s nice to have a keepsake.

01:04 Speaker 2 Exactly.

01:05 Speaker 1 That’s how I feel when I talk with you.

01:07 Speaker 2 That’s what I want, and it’s happening here at home, so that makes it even more fun.

01:12 Speaker 1 In your own space, in your lovely corner.

01:14 Speaker 2 A little less comfortable if you like sitting on sofas, but it’s fine.

01:17 Speaker 1 Okay, so I really am coming into this with a lot of curiosity. We’ve been in touch over the last few months. It started with a bas mitzvah you did for my niece, Riki.

01:31 Speaker 2 For your niece, and the—

01:32 Speaker 1 And then I saw the bas mitzvah and said, “You have to come to my daughter Mushi’s bas mitzvah.”

01:37 Speaker 2 Who also came to my classes for a while—

01:39 Speaker 1 I’m saved in your phone as “Mushi’s mother.”

01:40 Speaker 2 Mushi’s mother.

01:41 Speaker 1 Please.

01:42 Speaker 2 Right.

01:43 Speaker 1 I used to bring her from Or Yehuda. I’d bring her to the class.

01:46 Speaker 2 Wow, I remember.

01:48 Speaker 1 And we’ve already reserved a place in next year’s class for Libi.

01:51 Speaker 2 As far as I’m concerned, Libi’s already registered, sweetheart. Even if there’s no room, she’s registered. She can come this year.

01:57 Speaker 1 So let’s do it, right after Pesach. And then you—and we met and talked, and on so many things we really think alike. And it’s amazing: I’m in touch with you, and every time I’m with you, I feel like I discover more about you. I still don’t know you, and I’m still curious. And I follow you and see what you do with the children in your classes. Put aside the workshops and the kits you sell for a second—they’re amazing, and we could devote a whole episode to the catalog alone.

02:34 Speaker 2 Wow, the catalog.

02:35 Speaker 1 But there’s something you do with the children that I want to understand, and I want to understand who you are, what you’re about. Though maybe you should first tell us a little about how you got there, or whatever you’d like to share.

02:51 Speaker 2 First of all, I’m surprised that we’ve been in such regular contact and you say you still don’t really know me. Because, at the end of the day, I feel like I’m a very open person. I have a side that’s very much, “Yes, this is who I am,” and that’s it.

03:03 Speaker 1 You bring yourself, you put yourself out there, you give of yourself. You don’t hide. But there are real depths there. You’re a person with so much depth, and it makes me curious. Where you are, where you work, what you do, the people whose lives you touch... When I saw you at my niece Riki’s bas mitzvah, I said, “It doesn’t matter what she says—even if she talks nonsense—she simply touches souls.” It was incredible. The way you managed to bring together such a varied group, all different ages, and you were so, so present. That’s what touched me. It even moved me.

03:46 Speaker 2 It’s funny hearing you say that. On the one hand, I want to thank you, and on the other, I don’t really feel it’s mine. As if it’s some special skill of mine or something. I do feel that I was there, though.

04:06 Speaker 1 What do you mean? But you realize there’s a certain magic there?

04:09 Speaker 2 Yes. On the one hand, I say, okay, this is what I do. I meet people all day. I really love people. But I’ll leave a workshop or a gathering, and people will write to me, “Thank you, it was amazing, you touched me in this way and that.” I don’t know how long you’ve been following me, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted a single response from a workshop. And I think people write me something after every workshop. But I genuinely feel like I come to it as a clean vessel. I really mean—

04:39 Speaker 1 A conduit. You’re very much a conduit.

04:40 Speaker 2 But really, the truth is...

04:41 Speaker 1 But a conduit through which so much abundance flows.

04:44 Speaker 2 Right, but maybe so. In the moment itself, though, during a workshop or a gathering, I feel completely equal to the people there. I really see them as—

04:56 Speaker 1 Okay, but I think that’s part of the magic.

04:57 Speaker 2 A whole lot of souls meeting, and it’s like—

05:00 Speaker 1 And what’s your role? What is it that you, as a conduit, actually do?

05:03 Speaker 2 To see. To see, to notice, to see everyone, to see every person there. I really feel that when I’m sitting across from a woman during a gathering, I can see her soul. It doesn’t necessarily happen to me in one-on-one conversations with friends, but in a worksh—

05:20 Speaker 1 But do you understand that this is a rare ability? I’m not trying to heap praise on you now—that’s not the point—but—

05:26 Speaker 2 Again, I’d say yes and no, because everyone—

05:28 Speaker 1 I’ll explain why I’m asking. At the end of the day, I am trying to figure you out. I’m coming to you with curiosity: what’s happening there? Why am I trying to do that? Because I believe that when you manage to figure out what makes someone tick, you can turn it into a kind of model, an approach, and then I can learn to do it too. Because if I come to one of your workshops today, I’ll see what you do and say, “Wow, what a beautiful gift she has. She got it from Hashem and she’s using it,” and that’s all wonderful, but I can’t replicate it. And I think you do manage to make it replicable with the kits. That’s what I’m trying to do with you now: figure out what this thing is. So we understand that there’s this unique ability to see souls. You come in with a great deal of bittul, setting yourself aside. You’re not the focus there at all. You just sit and see. But you said something else, too. I don’t know if you noticed: “It’s important to me to see every person.” Both making that a priority and actually managing to do it are no simple things.

06:30 Speaker 2 Right, but it just happens. Sometimes I feel like I get dressed up for a workshop on the outside—I put on clothes, makeup, and so on. But when I arrive, I feel like the first thing I do is strip all that off. My traits aren’t there, my personality isn’t there, what matters to me or doesn’t matter to me isn’t there. We’re all together now. And I think something happens that lets people be themselves, too. I think that whenever people meet, some kind of connection happens. People really participate. And I even look at myself sometimes and think: I haven’t felt comfortable participating in every workshop or gathering I’ve ever attended. I’m not sure that if I were sitting with a group of people having a discussion using cards, I’d be the one to participate. It would be very hard for me. But I feel like something happens, and what happens in the gathering isn’t—

07:24 Speaker 1 You mean a gathering led by Sarah’le?

07:26 Speaker 2 Yes, when people come to a worksh—

07:26 Speaker 1 Even if Sarah’le came to a gathering led by Sarah’le, she wouldn’t be able to connect?

07:31 Speaker 2 I don’t know. I don’t know what I’d be like at my own gathering.

07:34 Speaker 1 Wow.

07:34 Speaker 2 I believe that... I think what happens to people when I meet with them is that I’m not there. I mean, they don’t feel that they’re—

07:42 Speaker 1 There’s no judgment there.

07:43 Speaker 2 There’s no judgment, but I also think I don’t carry it with me afterward. If a woman has just shared that she’s having a terribly hard time, I’ll truly be there with her, heart and soul, one hundred percent. But I think if I see her tomorrow, I won’t feel pity for her or think of her as someone facing a hardship or a challenge. It will be completely clean. And people share some really difficult things. I don’t think I’ve led many workshops where nobody cried.

08:06 Speaker 1 You say you also come to run workshops during shiva and mourning, and things like that.

08:10 Speaker 2 Yes. And at the other end of the spectrum, I run bas mitzvah workshops. I always say I don’t run happy workshops or sad ones. It’s not a happy workshop. I don’t get people dancing.

08:22 Speaker 1 What is it? What is your workshop?

08:23 Speaker 2 But I do feel that there’s a kind of shedding of layers, and then we reach a point where we’re all equal. There, we’re simply there for one another. We’re giving, we’re connecting. There are none of those masks. We may look different, dress differently and think differently, but in that moment—in what I think is a refined healing process—we’re all equal. Every one of us.

08:47 Speaker 1 Why? Because we have a soul? In what way are we equal?

08:51 Speaker 2 We’re all equal because we have a soul. We’re equal because we depend on one another. At the end of the day, if I woke up this morning and you woke up this morning, I need you and you need me. Our souls are one. We’re like a puzzle, and every person comes to contribute something. There’s no such thing as someone living physically in this world without bringing their own contribution. There’s no such thing. Now, if you aren’t bringing what you have to give, you might be on a very difficult journey. But when you bring your uniqueness and your contribution, you’re giving not only to yourself. You’re giving to everyone—to children, to a baby, to every person who’s born, and—

09:24 Speaker 1 Is that an awareness you wake up with in the morning and carry through the day, or do you have to work on it?

09:29 Speaker 2 I feel it most of the time.

09:31 Speaker 1 How wonderful for you.

09:33 Speaker 2 Why don’t you feel it?

09:35 Speaker 1 No, not as tangibly as you’re describing it. I do feel that I want to give, I want to do things, and I want to give of myself abundantly. But I don’t see it that way. It’s like you live on a higher frequency, and you don’t apologize for it.

09:58 Speaker 2 I do feel that the people around me—I actually feel you’re with me on this, as a friend. And I have a lot of friends with whom I share this feeling. I don’t know if they’d put it in those words, but I remember we talked about artificial intelligence, and you said there had been this incredible leap. You said its limit was a hundred.

10:21 Speaker 1 Yes.

10:22 Speaker 2 Do you want to remind us what you said? Because it was actually amazing.

10:24 Speaker 1 What? That its IQ is now 160, and it’s going to keep growing exponentially. They say that within a year or two it’ll be 1,600—something our brains can’t even grasp. It would be like us compared with an ant.

10:38 Speaker 2 I remember we talked about that, and I said—and we said—that a lot of people wouldn’t be needed anymore. But in practice, I think what it’ll do is let everyone shed those outer layers. You’ll get up in the morning and bring what you have to bring, your uniqueness, into the world. You can’t bring anything else.

10:52 Speaker 1 And will people also have a better idea of what they’re supposed to bring into the world?

10:55 Speaker 2 I believe that when there’s no need for you on a physical level, there’s still a need for you on an inner level. No one else can give what’s inside you.

11:03 Speaker 1 I really see that as the era of Moshiach.

11:05 Speaker 2 Right, it’s the era of Moshiach.

11:06 Speaker 1 Artificial.

11:06 Speaker 2 It’s the era of Moshiach. These are processes of the era of Moshiach. Absolutely. I think some people are already living in Geulah and some are on the way, but this awareness is for everyone. I can see it in children. I remember you even told me about Libi—we were talking about joy, and you said, “Libi brings me joy.”

11:26 Speaker 1 Right.

11:26 Speaker 2 And it was clear to me that, in her very essence, that child brings joy from the moment she gets up in the morning, and she knows it.

11:33 Speaker 1 She knows it.

11:33 Speaker 2 She knows it.

11:34 Speaker 1 That’s what’s wonderful to see in little children today. Libi is two and a half, and she came to us after almost ten years. She knows she’s a gift. It’s just...

11:45 Speaker 2 But that’s how it is. Children know they’ve come to bring joy, and we, as adults, have to remind ourselves what we bring into the world.

11:54 Speaker 1 You recently came out with new branding.

11:56 Speaker 2 Right.

11:58 Speaker 1 You’ve always been Sara’le Mandala.

12:00 Speaker 2 Right.

12:01 Speaker 1 But what’s your actual name?

12:03 Speaker 2 Wow. These days, Sara’le Tribnik[unclear]. Before that, Sara’le Twitter[unclear].

12:08 Speaker 1 But the name you were given?

12:09 Speaker 2 The only one that’s stayed with me is Sara’le Mandala.

12:11 Speaker 1 And that’s how everyone has you saved. It’s also your business name, and everything is built around it.

12:15 Speaker 2 No, a few people have me saved as Sarah Laraza[unclear], but I let them keep it. I had to. It was passed along between people, and some still have me saved that way.

12:23 Speaker 1 Oh, nice. Okay.

12:25 Speaker 2 Important, what?

12:26 Speaker 1 It is important to save people under the name they want.

12:28 Speaker 2 I’m grateful for all of it. I’m sure that’s how they picture me.

12:32 Speaker 1 Nice. So, Sara’le Mandala. You do a lot of work through the mandala, which I’d also like to talk to you about. But you’ve just gone through a rebranding process: “Sara’le Mandala, Connecting to the Essence.” From what I know of you, it’s so you, such a perfect fit. I’d like you to tell me how you make that connection to the essence through the children, and maybe we’ll understand your brand better.

13:11 Speaker 2 First of all, I spent, I think, more than a year feeling that the logo just wasn’t right. The previous logo—

13:18 Speaker 1 Now, what’s a logo?

13:19 Speaker 2 Ultimately, I feel like the logo is the clothing my business wears, and I was going around in something I didn’t feel comfortable with. I know a lot of people were attached to that logo. When I changed the one before it, which felt cluttered to me, so many people wrote to say the new one was much less attractive and so on. But to me, that change was really quite small. With this logo, it was clear to me that I was done with all the color. Even though I’m a colorful person, I felt I wanted something very, very clean, very symbolic and very simple. Basically, I just wanted to write “Connecting to the Essence.” In my mind, it was practically handwritten. Then, as always, I sent it to the people close to me, and they all wrote, “It’s terrible. Don’t change the logo. Don’t do that.” And—

14:06 Speaker 1 At first, you also had just “Sara’le.”

14:08 Speaker 2 Right, just “Sara’le,” and I wasn’t comfortable with that either. There was something about it—I’ll get to that in a second. But as time went on, I’d arrive at a workshop and see my logo there, and I’d feel that the person coming to the workshop and the logo didn’t go together. They weren’t one. That was really, really hard for me. I think when I came to you, I actually wanted to make a bot to make it easier for me to answer people. But I said, “How can we make a bot when I’m not even happy with the logo? Where do I start?” Then I think I showed it to you, and you were one of the first people to say, “Why not? There’s something to it...”

14:43 Speaker 1 I told you, “It’s exactly right.”

14:44 Speaker 2 “It’s exactly right. There’s something to it...” And at first it really was—

14:47 Speaker 1 But that may be because, by the time I met you, you were already so much—I mean, that’s what I saw. I saw that connection to the essence so clearly every time we met, at both bas mitzvahs, which were only a few weeks apart.

15:00 Speaker 2 Right, I think it was even two weeks, something like that. But you gave me room to breathe. The moment you said, “Okay, I can really see it,” I suddenly felt I could breathe, and I said, “Okay.” At first it was “Sara’le,” and over time I realized—because I kept saying, “I don’t do that many mandalas these days. I do make mandalas, but they aren’t the main thing.” I was preoccupied with that. Then I think one of the children in a class said something like, “Your last name is Mandala, right?” The other children said yes—there was some conversation like that—and suddenly it clicked. They all knew what I do for a living, but they all called me Sara’le Mandala. Even if tomorrow I started selling watch kits—

15:37 Speaker 1 Ultimately, that’s your name. It’s where everything starts, and the connection to the essence can also happen through the mandala.

15:45 Speaker 2 Yes. I felt that’s my name, no matter what I do. And actually, the mandala is a big part of my journey, and it’s something I still use today. It isn’t separate from my work. It’s just not the only thing, and I do—

15:57 Speaker 1 And then it looks like a last name.

15:59 Speaker 2 Right, so it’s staying that way. On our identity cards, I suggested to Yossi that we change it. I told him it would be much better for marketing, but he didn’t say yes.

16:06 Speaker 1 That he’d be a Mandela too?

16:07 Speaker 2 Yes. I said, “What? What would they ask you?”

16:08 Speaker 1 That sounds like Mandela too. Anyway, it’s a Chassidic name.

16:11 Speaker 2 It took me ages to get married, and my mother would always say, “Come on, bring me the Mandela already. Sarah’le Mandela—how does that sound?” Exactly the same. But in the end, I brought her someone with a different name.

16:19 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

16:20 Speaker 2 What could I do? I couldn’t.

16:21 Speaker 1 No, it’s really amazing. It’s as if your family and your business really are—

16:30 Speaker 2 Yes.

16:31 Speaker 1 Beautiful.

16:31 Speaker 2 It connects them for you, but—

16:32 Speaker 1 Do you ultimately want it to be just Sarah’le? For Mandela to drop off too?

16:39 Speaker 2 It could be—

16:40 Speaker 1 In the end, everything evolves. It’s a process—

16:42 Speaker 2 Yes, I can imagine that one day: a line or something very, very abstract. I don’t know. Yes, I can imagine it.

16:50 Speaker 1 Okay, so let’s continue with connecting to the essence, and give us a glimpse into your classes, if you’re willing. Are they classes? Is it therapy? From what I’ve seen, I feel the children go through therapy there—emotional therapy, a process. I don’t know, something that’s more than just another class.

17:10 Speaker 2 First of all, I told you that when I come to the workshops, I feel like I’m shedding layers. In the studio, I don’t even have to shed them. I get there, and it just feels like essence meeting essence. The children bring me a whole world, a glimpse into something. I’m there for so many hours that I can spend entire days there. There might be a war outside, sirens, who knows what going on, and in the studio it has nothing to do with any of that. I mean, there’s a whole world there. Sometimes I say, “Okay, this is paradise.” A whole world of purity. The children are pure on a level I can’t even— You know how you say you sit with curiosity? That’s how I am with the children. I simply listen to them. And children—

17:53 Speaker 1 You are leading something there.

17:54 Speaker 2 Of course. There’s a structured program that unfolds as a process. If I look for a moment at the cognitive and emotional side, there’s a program built around their emotional development—

18:02 Speaker 1 That you developed.

18:03 Speaker 2 Yes, over the years. I’ve been there for fourteen years already. With time, I came to understand that, ultimately, it’s about giving children tools: a language for emotions and a way to develop skills—social skills, skills for each child individually, and motor skills too. I know the children go through processes there. Today I can really pinpoint them, and on a personal level I have a syllabus, something for each group and sometimes for each child. I know where I want them to make progress. These aren’t even things I talk about with the parents nowadays, because most of the parents have been with me for years. So—

18:34 Speaker 1 You mean the children keep coming back. It’s not—

18:36 Speaker 2 They keep coming back. So that’s how it is.

18:37 Speaker 1 So you have a syllabus that’s sort of spiral-shaped?

18:40 Speaker 2 I have a spiral syllabus, and I know that, say, I teach a certain number of groups in a day. For each group, even if it’s the same activity, for these children it’s at this level; for those children it’s in that style. With another group, what matters to me more than the emotional conversation is that they listen to one another. I really feel that what they need there is the ability to see the other person and not just themselves, because they share about themselves beautifully. But sharing and then hearing another child, asking them questions with curiosity, listening to them—that’s where I feel I need to put my heart. But something happens there. I get there and I lose track of time. Really, I have no sense of time. Every time, I’m shocked when the session ends. Over time I’ve learned to set myself a reminder, because I want us to have a closing. But there’s a kind of magic. Something happens there. And as I said, the session starts on a mat. The children sit on cushions, right at eye level, and sometimes I laugh at myself: I spend half the day sitting on the floor. It isn’t easy, but I enjoy sitting there with them, and I start—

19:46 Speaker 1 Do you feel a little like a child there too? Because ultimately you have to be the adult. You are the adult too.

19:52 Speaker 2 I don’t know if I’d say I feel a little like a child, but sometimes they manage to bring out more playful parts of me. Normally, I’m not playful. For instance, on Purim, I don’t know, I find it hard to dress up. For years I didn’t wear a costume. And when the children came in and said, “What, you didn’t dress up? Why not?” I put on lipstick. Now, for me that was—

20:11 Speaker 1 You really dressed up.

20:12 Speaker 2 Putting on lipstick. Yes, I felt dressed up, and they laughed and went along with it. But sometimes I sing with them. I don’t know, it’s someone’s birthday—it’s not natural for me to sing and lift a child on a chair or do running games. That isn’t me. But if I feel there’s a need, I’m willing. Or to read a story with a melody and different voices—I’m thinking, “Wait, that’s not me,” but I just do it for them.

20:39 Speaker 1 Okay, so let’s go back. We’re sitting on the mat.

20:43 Speaker 2 And there’s an activity I start with. First, I begin with the basic round of sharing things that made us happy. I always say—even if I didn’t have a happy day or a good day, and I tell the children this too—when I take my flashlight for a moment and shine it on one small part of my day, it doesn’t mean everything was wonderful. I might have had the most disappointing week, but I take a moment to be thankful for something happy and share it. What I noticed with the new children is that it started to become part of how they think. They go through the week thinking about what happy thing they’ll tell us at the session. And where do I see it most clearly? With the little ones. When the youngest group first comes, a girl might say, “What makes me happy is…” Oh, there’s something I want to say first. The first time I asked the three-year-olds what made them happy, they talked about things they’d given and ways they’d helped. Each time, it moved me so much, because I thought—

21:37 Speaker 1 That’s the real thing.

21:37 Speaker 2 It’s true, it’s true. A child who’s giving. I would tell them, “That’s the truth: when you give, you’re happy.” It’s not for nothing that this is what they focus on. A girl might say, “I helped Mommy with this today. I did that.” It’s so pure. But as time went on, we learned that before long—

21:51 Speaker 1 You see how it develops…

21:52 Speaker 2 How things develop. Then there’s a stage when what makes me happy is, say I’ve just said, “I’m happy I went to a birthday party,” and suddenly five children say the same thing: “I had a birthday party too! That makes me happy too!” So I stop it and say, “We’re going to learn this again. Wait—I might be happy that I had a birthday. When is your birthday?” And she says, say, “In Tammuz.” I say, “And what makes you happy? Maybe something at preschool today, or something with a friend.”

22:17 Speaker 1 To show them there are other possibilities. You’re opening up the possibilities for them.

22:18 Speaker 2 Possibilities, and a certain sense of being separate. I mean, you and I aren’t truly separate, but we can have different experiences. One thing makes me happy, and something else makes you happy. Then Adar comes around, like now, and suddenly every child has something happy to share. They walk in the door ready to say, “Sarah, today I had fun when…” And I say, “Okay, in a moment we’ll sit down together and talk about it.” But they arrive ready.

22:39 Speaker 1 So you’re saying they really look forward to that round on the mat.

22:44 Speaker 2 Yes, but that’s just the beginning of the round. I mean, that’s something we do in every group. As they get older, I also ask if something significant happened, because I do feel that a twelve- or thirteen-year-old wants to share more. If something really upsetting happened to her that week, it’ll be very hard for her to talk only about what made her happy. So I let her share something significant, and then she says, “Something made me happy, and something was upsetting, disappointing, sad”—the whole range of emotions.

23:09 Speaker 1 What’s frustrating for me, talking to you, is that you don’t have any room in your classes, so we’re just making people envious. But I do think we can take something from this. That’s why we’re doing it: I can take this and do it with my daughter.

23:25 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

23:26 Speaker 1 Developing them—that’s what you’re bringing us here: how to develop these skills.

23:30 Speaker 2 Absolutely. And I really am torn about that—I mean, about there being no room. On the one hand, I say, “Wow, thank Hashem.” You know, there’s no room, and there are children who come year after year and still don’t get tired of it.

23:42 Speaker 1 There’s a waiting list.

23:43 Speaker 2 There’s a waiting list, and what I’ve started doing now is running twelve-session series, like boutique groups. There I take them through a shorter, more focused process, with smaller groups, so I can really reach each child in the way they need. And there’s turnover. You can join several series, but there’s turnover. It’s not something you can just...

24:03 Speaker 1 There’s a set place for it, a beginning, a middle and an end. It’s not yearlong.

24:06 Speaker 2 Right, and after twelve sessions, you come away with something. You have a session with the parents, and there’s a sense of closure to it.

24:14 Speaker 1 Oh, the parents come too, to the...?

24:15 Speaker 2 Yes, to the last session. And of course I share things with them before and after. I am in touch with them, but at the last session of the workshop, they actually experience a session together with their children.

24:28 Speaker 1 How wonderful. So let’s go back again to—every time, I keep bringing you back to the session itself—

24:34 Speaker 2 To the essence.

24:34 Speaker 1 Because I really want to get a feel for it. Maybe I’ll just come and watch. Would you be okay with that? Do you let people in?

24:39 Speaker 2 What, to observe?

24:39 Speaker 1 Yes.

24:40 Speaker 2 No.

24:41 Speaker 1 No.

24:41 Speaker 2 No, not because of me. Personally, I don’t mind people watching. I mean—

24:44 Speaker 1 Because of the children, the intimacy, the—

24:45 Speaker 2 I mean, you know, the windows are open, the door is open. If parents want to, they can always hide and peek in. But for the children’s sake, I wouldn’t bring people in like that, because...

24:56 Speaker 1 Okay, so then you do this with them—but answer me: Is it an extracurricular class? Not a class? What is it?

25:02 Speaker 2 Wow, that’s a really good question. First of all, I call it a session, not a class, including when I speak to the parents. I can say without a doubt—speaking of which, if we were talking about whether I’d join my own group, whether I’d take part in the conversation and all that, I’d say maybe yes, maybe no, I don’t know. But with this class, I say, with Hashem’s help, when I have children, I absolutely want them to be part of it. It’s the kind of place that makes me think, wow, I wish everyone had a place like this in their life as a child. They just feel like sib—I was going to say they feel like siblings, but really, the children have a sense of belonging in the group. They have their own world there.

25:40 Speaker 1 So they feel that connection between their souls there?

25:42 Speaker 2 Absolutely, absolutely. And really, it’s between them. They share such personal things. It’s not like—sometimes I write to the parents, and a mother might write back, “What, she shares everything?” And I say, no, it’s not “she shares everything,” as in, “How awful, my daughter is sharing the most personal things about our home.” She’s sharing with her friends in the group, with girls who have so little ego that they simply listen to her. So very often I don’t intervene; I just listen. If a girl can tell—

26:09 Speaker 1 But when they’re older, how do you make sure they really feel safe, and that no one will laugh about it afterward if they meet at school or something like that? That’s...

26:18 Speaker 2 They grow into it. I think most of the older girls in my groups have been coming for several years, and I think it’s clear to me that—that it just goes without saying. You don’t need to...

26:29 Speaker 1 Um, so the sense of safety you create there provides that secure ground for them.

26:34 Speaker 2 Yes, completely. I can say there’s one group that finds it more challenging. They’re girls at that in-between age, not very big and not little, and with them I really do the most basic work on accepting one another. All sorts of exercises where you repeat what someone said. For example, one girl shares something, and the girl after her deliberately repeats it back in a gentle tone and asks a question about it. Then I ask, “How did it feel when she repeated what you said?” And they might say, “Yes, I felt heard.” But I think that’s something you build through exercises. I go back with them to the same things I work on with the very little ones, just at a different level.

27:12 Speaker 1 Wow.

27:12 Speaker 2 That very basic starting point of, wait a second, not being afraid, not feeling embarrassed. And at the same time, I always tell them: On the one hand, I want you to enjoy yourselves, and I want you to feel as close to one another as possible. On the other hand, I don’t care at all what you think of me. Not in a defiant way. Come here to be yourself. It doesn’t matter to me if... I tell them, if I lived my life worrying about what all of you think, I wouldn’t have a life. I’d constantly be busy trying to wear shoes like yours, travel like you, bring that food to school, or make my ponytail exactly like—

27:41 Speaker 1 So it’s a kind of therapy? I mean, I don’t want to use the word “therapy” in the clinical sense—

27:46 Speaker 2 Therapy in the broader sense.

27:47 Speaker 1 Yes.

27:47 Speaker 2 But I can say unequivocally that it is, and I think the parents know that. I mean, I think if you asked—

27:52 Speaker 1 How do the parents know what you do there? From the feedback they get from the children?

27:58 Speaker 2 A lot of parents simply see a change at home. They might say their child is much calmer, listens better, has made a leap in motor skills or socially. Parents really see it, and they tell me and others about it. And what’s interesting is that schools also send children to me. There’s a school where, as far as I know, the principal and teachers have never even spoken to me, but the principal apparently says, “If you want her to stay, the condition is that you enroll her in the class next year.”

28:31 Speaker 3 Wow.

28:31 Speaker 2 And then I hear it from the parents. It’s not about one particular child. I also know that some of the girls in my groups are children of teachers, so I hear things that way. But I don’t seek it out; it’s just feedback that reaches me. I simply experience the children. I see them progressing. I can tell you what a child was like at the beginning of the year, how they are now, and how they are at the end of the year. They absolutely go through a deep, genuine process. I have no doubt about it.

28:56 Speaker 3 So if there are mothers listening to us who live far away—and in any case, there’s no room in your classes right now—what tips can you give them? What practical thing could they change in the way they think and understand, and in the way they talk with their child, to help them move forward and grow?

29:19 Speaker 2 First of all, I think you need to give your child space—simply some uninterrupted time. Not time you’ve squeezed in while you’re anxious to get back to something else. Really make time in your routine that’s sacred, just like when you put your child in a class. You know you’re paying for it. You bring your child to me, you leave, and you expect something to happen during the forty-five minutes your child is there.

29:44 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

29:44 Speaker 2 And I say, do the same thing at home. Set aside time. It could be half an hour, but there’s nothing else going on. It’s just you. You can sit there and, first of all, listen and ask open-ended questions. Just listen with no preconceptions. That’s how I sit down at every session: I genuinely have no idea what the children will bring up, because children are... they’re not adults. With you, I know you, so I could say, okay, you’ll say this or that. With children, you have almost no certainty. They’re so innocent and pure that—

30:15 Speaker 3 It really means coming to it with nothing but curiosity.

30:16 Speaker 2 Just curiosity, and giving them time.

30:18 Speaker 3 And a lot of trust. I think you also place a lot of trust in the children.

30:22 Speaker 2 I feel like they’re my teachers. I mean, speaking of Geulah, I think the souls of these children are teachers to all of us. Not just to me. But I think if we could be humble for a moment and set aside the fact that they’re young, they’re really living the Geulah. They’ve come to give us something—

30:41 Speaker 3 They embody the Geulah more.

30:43 Speaker 2 And as an aside, I think schools that don’t make this significant change—recognizing that the children are the teachers, and that we need to listen with humility and make space for them—won’t last. I think more and more people today understand that a change has to happen. Children come with knowledge; they know things about the world. We just need to make room for that and listen to them. I hear the way they talk to one another, and I think, wow, I wish I spoke to my friend like that. I wish I asked those questions and looked at the world with that kind of curiosity. They see—

31:17 Speaker 3 You’re more of a student than anyone.

31:18 Speaker 2 But that’s really how it is.

31:19 Speaker 3 How amazing. With my kids, I’ve been having “fun chats” with them since they were very, very young.

31:27 Speaker 2 Wow, right. I get those too.

31:28 Speaker 3 Fun chats, and it’s amazing. Libi is little, two and a half, but she talks like a five-year-old, and she’s already talking to me about first grade.

31:38 Speaker 2 Well, Libi is Geulah.

31:39 Speaker 3 Yes. You have a connection with her—she knows you, even though your relationship is kind of virtual. So one evening this week, I was talking with her, and it was such a close conversation. She said to me, “Mommy, this is a fun chat, right? Without ice cream.” Because a lot of times we go out for ice cream or something. But it’s about sitting down, really seeing them, and simply talking not at them, but with them. That’s what I’ve seen from a very young age.

32:08 Speaker 2 I think Libi can tell you she doesn’t want to go to preschool and say, “Mommy, let’s go have a fun chat.” But think about it: she’s two and a half, and she knows how to say she wants time with you.

32:18 Speaker 3 Right.

32:18 Speaker 2 At two and a half, she finds the words. How many times do we want time alone with someone we really love, but we can’t stop and say the simplest thing: “I want some fun time with you”? And she’s so young, yet she does it. I mean, that’s the truth of it.

32:35 Speaker 3 Exactly.

32:36 Speaker 2 By the way, you said you want to start a school, so I…

32:38 Speaker 3 You’re—you’re totally there.

32:39 Speaker 2 So I—I don’t know if I’m there, but I’m looking forward to it, and I say—

32:43 Speaker 3 No, no, that’s the big dream.

32:46 Speaker 2 That’s the direction.

32:46 Speaker 3 Really, it’s about understanding—but this is the conversation about the children, the children of the Geulah: understanding what we, as adults, with our experience, can do to help them. But they’re going to grow and advance at an incredible pace.

33:01 Speaker 2 At an incredible pace.

33:02 Speaker 3 And with today’s world of artificial intelligence and everything Hakadosh Boruch Hu is bringing us toward the Geulah—one personal Geulah, and another personal Geulah, and another will bring it about. Sarah’le, I felt like I was having a fun chat. I had fun with you. How was it for you?

33:16 Speaker 2 Honestly, I had fun. It was surprising and unexpected, and I felt comfortable.

33:20 Speaker 3 Any chance we’ll do another episode?

33:22 Speaker 2 Let’s do it. We can.

33:23 Speaker 3 So what are we calling our podcast? “At Sarah’le’s House”?

33:30 Speaker 2 That sounds a bit like “At Amos and Tami’s House.”

33:32 Speaker 3 Okay.

33:32 Speaker 2 We’ll think about it. I don’t know.

33:34 Speaker 3 Okay. Thank you, Sarah’le.

33:36 Speaker 2 Just call it “Simplicity.” Whoever wants to can join.

33:38 Speaker 3 Connecting to the Essence.

33:39 Speaker 2 Connecting to the Essence.

33:40 Speaker 3 There we go. We’ve got it.

33:42 Speaker 2 We do.

33:43 Speaker 3 See you in the next episode.