Ep. 56: Lubavitch of the Last 90 Years with Rabbi Sholom Ber Gurkov (Yiddish)

00:00 Speaker 1 Each family had its own rooms. But when you went upstairs, they had made a kitchen there, in the middle of the third floor. And they cooked? Exactly, she cooked, as he says. First of all, each family had no more than... And he wouldn’t go off to cook; he had a whole room. Oh, that was in the courtyard, by the stairs. We go upstairs. Everyone—Mom, Mom also says the mothers traveled.

00:33 Speaker 2 So when that happened, they heard it—

00:35 Speaker 1 We told them that the Rebbe would leave there.

00:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

00:38 Speaker 1 And Mom was standing there. When she heard, when she traveled, [unclear].

00:44 Speaker 2 This special episode with Rabbi Gorkov was made possible thanks to his grandchildren, with blessings and wishes for long life, good and healthy years, and much nachas from all their descendants until the coming of the righteous redeemer. I’m Yossi Kamen. Welcome to “Among Chassidim” from Derher, an ongoing journey into life as a chossid, our vibrant connection with the Rebbe, and an inspired life shaped by what he teaches us each and every day. Sholom aleichem, Rabbi Gorkov. How are you?

01:26 Speaker 1 Rabbi, what does Greenwald say? We make it clear that the Rebbe does things too. We have [unclear] to do here.

01:31 Speaker 2 Yes.

01:32 Speaker 1 That happened with the Rebbe on another occasion. Rabbi Greenwald, who’s from our community. I said, “What does he do?” I say, “We do—we do what? The Rebbe does things too.”

01:43 Speaker 2 What does “sholom aleichem” mean?

01:45 Speaker 1 But where? Oh. “Sholom aleichem” is a name there. And why, in America, the way they kiss—we say hello, not like that. But right away, with the Rebbe, as soon as two people meet, they are together. Is the Rebbe pleased with that? Yes? But I don’t know. One says “sholom,” and the other says “aleichem sholom,” the other way around. Because the Gemara says that whoever is first to greet his fellow with sholom merits long life. So one can certainly say “aleichem, aleichem.” He was first. When there are two people, one can say “sholom aleichem.” The one who wasn’t first says “aleichem sholom.”

02:32 Speaker 2 Yes. I thought about the Rebbe—when we were still children in cheder, I thought we immediately used the expression “sholom aleichem.” One says “sholom aleichem,” and the other says “aleichem sholom,” because a Jew mustn’t say it the other way around, right?

02:44 Speaker 1 The Rebbe says that when it is said, it spreads.

02:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

02:47 Speaker 1 But that’s the Rebbe’s explanation. “Sholom aleichem” is—why can one... “Sholom aleichem” is a name. What? To meet together. And he asks me, “Why? Why in the siddur? What did he print? [unclear]. Why?”

03:07 Speaker 2 With that—

03:08 Speaker 1 Two Jews.

03:08 Speaker 2 And with the siddur too, yes.

03:10 Speaker 1 Yes, we—we say, why do we say two Jews?

03:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:16 Speaker 1 Two Jews together. They aren’t fighting. The Rebbe says, “It spreads. Two Jews.”

03:21 Speaker 2 Okay, let’s put it another way. Perhaps you could tell me a little about when the Gorkov family arrived?

03:29 Speaker 1 Oh. They—Gor—In Russia they call it Horkov. They... How did it come about? They were—they had a family; they were here before the Communists. They had an entire village that belonged to them. They had a village, and they made money from what they sold, the [unclear]. Yes, a village [unclear].

03:59 Speaker 2 Jews [unclear] lived in the village.

04:00 Speaker 1 In villages, yes.

04:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:02 Speaker 1 Then the Communists came and took the house from the poor. It was, it was—my grandfather, Meir Gorkov, became, uh, what was it?

04:19 Speaker 2 Your grandfather? Grandfather Meir.

04:21 Speaker 1 Grandfather Meir, yes.

04:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:24 Speaker 1 The elderly grandfather. That’s my grandfather. It was lost. The Communists took the house. He had—and because of that, he couldn’t get a government job. There wasn’t—there weren’t any here. But as you know, he traveled to Stalingrad. He had a cousin who worked for the authorities. He worked. He left here, from where we were. They told him, “Go there with the—with the—” They met, and they gave him a job. He arrived there and only then heard that the Rebbe had come from Rostov to Stalingrad. The Rebbe had been in Rostov. The Communists, too—thank G-d, they didn’t bother them. They rushed to the Rebbe. They were with the cousin, then entirely with the Rebbe. And he wasn’t in Rostov; he traveled. First of all, just to talk—to talk was difficult. The non-Jews in Russia—a Jew goes out into the street. So they said to my mother, “Why did he come?” They said, “You can’t make Pesach.” They were there, entirely with the Rebbe.

05:42 Speaker 2 Happier.

05:43 Speaker 1 Completely happy, completely happy. Most of them also weren’t—Frida wasn’t the first. She wasn’t the first. They didn’t send Frida for that.

05:49 Speaker 2 He couldn’t send Frida to find the Rebbe?

05:51 Speaker 1 That’s the—no, Frida was only a friend of the Rebbe.

05:53 Speaker 2 He came to Lubavitch.

05:54 Speaker 1 Lubavitch, yes. He was—he had already gone from there with him.

05:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:58 Speaker 1 When he was seven or eight. They—

06:02 Speaker 2 Traveled, traveled to Lubavitch.

06:03 Speaker 1 From here they traveled to Lubavitch. Afterward it became Lubavitch. That’s strange [?]. The Rebbe—he asks, “What are you telling me? What—what are you telling me?” He says, “Mr. Bruchim, you need this.” She—by then, on her own—how can I—

06:19 Speaker 2 Yes, already mine.

06:20 Speaker 1 Yes, she, yes. He said—the Rebbe said, “She needs a higher level, she needs...” The Rebbe—she needed something; he gave me two things. She needs a whole one; he gave me two whole ones. What did we have then? The Rebbe gave me authorization. She had to then—no, what was it then? Someone who was a shliach twice.

06:46 Speaker 2 Oh, to give him a dream—

06:47 Speaker 1 A shliach twice.

06:48 Speaker 2 —a shlichus.

06:50 Speaker 1 He said, “I’m not qualified; I’m not on the level—” To try—I had come from the Rebbe then, but he was a shliach—

06:56 Speaker 2 Too high.

06:56 Speaker 1 Yes, too high a level. Qualified. It was two years—two years he traveled throughout Russia.

07:06 Speaker 2 But a fellow shliach—who was that? His father, his grandfather, his own grandfather, his grandmother’s grandfather?

07:12 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes, yes. We’re still—we’re there in the library.

07:20 Speaker 2 In the library.

07:21 Speaker 1 In the library, yes. There was the Kasmainer. At the time there was—where—they write something there, “A note from the Rebbe Maharash.” It’s in Bessarabia, the Rebbe Maharash. There was a note there, that the chossid was—the chossid—where, where I too was with the Rebbe—no, that’s not right. There’s a Gorkov there. Another Gorkov is written there; it refers to that time. He had it, he had it. His contribution—this money came as a contribution. So it was more money than others gave. And he had money.

07:55 Speaker 2 Were there stories involving the earlier Rebbeim and your grandfathers?

08:00 Speaker 1 No, in Bessarabia—

08:01 Speaker 2 The Rebbe Maharash, the relative by marriage.

08:03 Speaker 1 Oh. That I can tell. Notke Shifer, Rabbi Reb Shaul—he thought, he thought his tallis was wet.

08:16 Speaker 2 When—

08:17 Speaker 1 The Kahal Shapira shul.

08:18 Speaker 2 —the rabbi blew the shofar.

08:19 Speaker 1 The shul—he was from Kahal Shapira.

08:20 Speaker 2 In Lubavitch.

08:21 Speaker 1 In Lubavitch itself, yes. That was Kahal Shapira; it was in the courtyard, in the whole—it was in the shul. He pushed with all his strength between the two talleisim. It was wet. But it was closed, because he was actually in the shul. The rabbi himself was in the shul. You see, he jumped through, jumped inside. It goes from the courtyard into the shul, and he opened the door. You also had to cross over, so the whole—and the Rebbe recited a blessing under the chuppah.

08:58 Speaker 2 Oh, he opened the door of—

08:59 Speaker 1 Of the Rebbe, Rabbi Reb Shaul. So the Rebbe—the Rebbe recited a blessing under the chuppah. So—he lived through it. Where was I? Then, I think, he had arrived earlier, and there was “our Frida,” Aunt Frida. So that’s—

09:23 Speaker 2 Who was Aunt Frida?

09:26 Speaker 1 She was—Matan’s brother, on her side, that was... She was his wife. Malitskin’s sister. They got married.

09:35 Speaker 2 Malitskin’s sister, aha.

09:36 Speaker 1 Yes. When the Rebbe was in Paris to bring his mother, she—what? She went in—she—there was a car, and it drove back. She asked, “Will we be given a blessing without the Rebbe?” So she was—the Rebbe returned first to—to—yes, that’s [unclear]. Then he sent Zamotman; Zamotman was a Schneersohn. He sent several things, and he sent a siddur. So he was to give it at night from the Rebbe, to—to him inside. Here she was—actually, that was then—no, what else? I can say now about the deputy, yes. So he—he had—afterward she was in Kharkov. What was Kharkov, anyway? In Kharkov she was murdered—

10:41 Speaker 2 Later? All this happened when she was a shlucha?

10:44 Speaker 1 Yes, the shlichus lasted two years. She was—

10:46 Speaker 2 Afterward, in Kharkov.

10:47 Speaker 1 The Rebbe then traveled to Riga; from here—he traveled from there. There was an opportunity, when—there was—and why was she there? She—and there [unclear] to the board. That was done; that was the rabbi’s. The uncle came to the board. But in every city he was near the board, and he had his own arrangements. They made use of what they had. He had experience. He had a board, but everyone had one. It happened with him too, with the—they sometimes come in. They had—

11:20 Speaker 2 They concealed it a little.

11:21 Speaker 1 Concealed it, yes. The Rebbe was in Riga. And in Russia, the Rebbe had—in every city he had someone, and the Rebbe received what there was. In Riga there wasn’t—in Riga there wasn’t—that was—you could see they didn’t have it. The uncle was here. She came; they were Schneersons then. They came, and he asked, “Where can I borrow for the Rebbe, so I can lend it to him?”

11:46 Speaker 2 So Schneerson was in Riga?

11:48 Speaker 1 Riga, but—he—no, he was in Russia. He had that in Russia. Ah, they weren’t sure how to—about that way of writing. Something in writing. They wrote a letter, wrote it like that. We know now, they—uh, with the ship, thank G-d, like that. They wrote—not “thank G-d.” They gave—they didn’t do it, not like that. They were quite particular in the letters—

12:20 Speaker 2 They gave a hint beforehand.

12:21 Speaker 1 Huh?

12:22 Speaker 2 They gave hints in the letters—

12:24 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. When I—when we arrived—I was in Kharkov. When we arrived, they had already said, “We’re going to Russia.” They came to Kharkov to—uh, he wanted to borrow, to borrow money.

12:39 Speaker 2 So we didn’t ask them for a blessing?

12:40 Speaker 1 Yes, you come, first you come to—yes.

12:42 Speaker 2 He has money to lend, to take.

12:44 Speaker 1 Yes. And in Kharkov it was better, because what else happened? There was a large factory there, with a thousand people working in it, and its director was from the Schneerson family. That was too much for me. He was—that was more for me. That was the thing. And they made—they did—the Jews—

13:09 Speaker 2 Chassidim.

13:09 Speaker 1 Two chassidim, and Jews too. No, they didn’t come. The trip was—during the war, with everything going on, people were in Kharkov then. So afterward he wanted to lend the money, wanted to lend it for the trip. Then he gave it, not from a bank. No, he never had money in a bank.

13:33 Speaker 2 The coins.

13:35 Speaker 1 Yes, there. Five hundred American gold dollars.

13:40 Speaker 2 American.

13:40 Speaker 1 American—gold. Coins, dollar coins.

13:44 Speaker 2 Those coins.

13:46 Speaker 1 Huh?

13:46 Speaker 2 Coins.

13:48 Speaker 1 Coins, yes, gold coins. That was five hundred thousand dollars at the time. Five hundred—uh, that—how do you give the money? How did he do it? I don’t know how they did it. A year later, two years later, they lent money. They lent it. Two years later, he still had money.

14:20 Speaker 2 They asked again?

14:21 Speaker 1 Yes. He wanted to know. The Rebbe didn’t accept any money. From Russia, money from Russia for the organizations—two, three, four months. He received a note. He brought a note then.

14:34 Speaker 2 Yes, Zamses [?].

14:35 Speaker 1 Yes, Zamses [?]. Fifty forms were prepared. Fifty. We came—that wasn’t money.

14:46 Speaker 2 That’s why there was a notary.

14:47 Speaker 1 And he wrote his name. Wh-what—

14:50 Speaker 2 “Shem-lebens” [?].

14:51 Speaker 1 He didn’t write “lebens.” He wrote it by hand, but not—and he wrote his name. Yes, that—I saw it from him. He wrote it; I know of one person.

14:59 Speaker 2 Yes.

15:00 Speaker 1 Then they gave another five hundred, and that was—that was at the time.

15:10 Speaker 2 At the time. What was in Kharkov? There was a yeshiva in Kharkov, wasn’t there?

15:15 Speaker 1 Even before then—yes, but it wasn’t so difficult yet. The yeshiva was established in Kharkov. They had to create a situation where he was dead. They arrived at that time—

15:25 Speaker 2 They were there?

15:26 Speaker 1 Yes. My father was there in the yeshiva, and the yeshiva was established in Kharkov.

15:31 Speaker 2 At that time?

15:32 Speaker 1 At that time. Yes, he was a bochur. And he, and he—yes, that—please, what? Poor Menovitch. Yes, the poor man. He was there at the time.

15:46 Speaker 2 Kharkov.

15:47 Speaker 1 Uh, for the Rebbe—there were good doctors in Kharkov too. So the Rebbe came then—the Rebbe’s father.

15:59 Speaker 2 The Rebbe together with the Rebbe’s father.

16:01 Speaker 1 Yes. No. He had a brother, Berel. He was in a hospital in Kharkov; he wasn’t well. There were good doctors in Kharkov too. So they came. They didn’t rest for thirty hours in Kharkov, so—

16:15 Speaker 2 The Rebbe?

16:16 Speaker 1 Huh?

16:17 Speaker 2 The Rebbe came?

16:18 Speaker 1 No, the—the father—

16:20 Speaker 2 The Rebbe’s father.

16:21 Speaker 1 The Rebbe’s father. So he came in order to—the Rebbe—I was a bochur then. The Rebbe—they came with the father. He came together, together—

16:34 Speaker 2 To help his brother Berel.

16:35 Speaker 1 Berel, yes. And the yeshiva was established in Kharkov. They approached—poor Menovitch in particular approached him, about what he was learning, and—

16:49 Speaker 2 The Rebbe approached him?

16:50 Speaker 1 Yes, together. He was the one who approached—

16:52 Speaker 2 Together with his father?

16:53 Speaker 1 No, no, no.

16:54 Speaker 2 What was between them?

16:55 Speaker 1 He wanted that. And the Rebbe asked a question. “Where—where is the question?” Later he told me, “Where is the question?” The Rebbe said, “The question is—the father came [unclear]—”

17:59 Speaker 2 The Rebbe himself was a bochur?

18:01 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. But then afterward—and the advice, and the Rebbe himself—and the father came [unclear]. He came to the Rebbe, to—that was the Rebbe, the Rebbe, [unclear], who was in Kharkov then.

18:15 Speaker 2 What happened with his father, with his heart?

18:20 Speaker 1 He underwent an operation. I’ve forgotten what he said. Well, yes, yes, he already said. It was an operation. That was important. But he had a conversation. But please. But [unclear]. They came afterward. He wanted him right before Yom Kippur. But what did the Rebbe say? Not to fast on Yom Kippur; that was put a stop to.

18:57 Speaker 2 He asked him to stop him. He could fast.

19:00 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. The Rebbe said, “Forget it.”

19:06 Speaker 2 Ah, I see. Who is called a rav?

19:08 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. He did that in Hashem’s name. But he is a rav. The rav gives life.

19:14 Speaker 2 Yes.

19:14 Speaker 1 Yes, he fasted. On Yom Kippur. He was going to fast on Yom Kippur.

19:18 Speaker 2 Do you think the Rebbe said that, or did he say it on other occasions?

19:22 Speaker 1 Yes, it could be.

19:23 Speaker 2 At home. It was from Hashem.

19:25 Speaker 1 Yes.

19:25 Speaker 2 And he fasted. Never.

19:27 Speaker 1 Yes.

19:27 Speaker 2 It was from Hashem.

19:28 Speaker 1 We have no [unclear]. So I think, I think there is already [unclear]. In any case. After the war he didn’t come. A letter from the Rebbe, signed “Ramash.” So that’s where it came from. They did pay from that. She brought many groups, the earlier ones.

19:49 Speaker 2 America.

19:51 Speaker 1 We take from the Rebbe’s groups and from the previous ones. No more. There are other groups. They have groups at the bank; they come to pay for themselves. All of them. Each person. The gabbaim give what they have. Every year they give there. We come forward with a gabbai from the Joint. That was it. We have it in writing, in a letter. What do you know? I [unclear] the Rebbe. It’s written, his name. So we give from that. She is my soul. The clothes no longer belong to anyone. [unclear].

20:29 Speaker 2 So where was she, in London?

20:31 Speaker 1 No, in Paris then. But still, all right. I came to London afterward. They came from London. They always knew about it. That was what was said. Here he would go with what he had. How much money did he have? Not what—what? That money? My money. Money from the Joint, the Joint. Money for the family. And if that also involved money, regarding before, there was no letter. He had money, also money from [unclear]. Then we went there with the group. She could. She says he—how? That’s what they said. They had something. How? What? That’s what the [unclear] say. They went afterward, after the war. Later. Later. Do you know why the letters arrived like that? The Rebbe? He says, “Chaim.”

21:22 Speaker 2 He says, “Chaim.”

21:24 Speaker 1 Yes, Chaim. “My dear”—you know.

21:25 Speaker 2 Why?

21:27 Speaker 1 He went with that. Chaim supplied it. He went with it.

21:29 Speaker 2 What?

21:30 Speaker 1 His name. Chaim.

21:32 Speaker 2 Okay.

21:32 Speaker 1 But he had money. Money. But there, the gabbaim, the gabbaim, they could. [unclear]. They came back. So that too. But now it’s there. The gabbaim, there, the gabbaim, the room, has it. You—for all the letters, that’s how they arrived.

21:50 Speaker 2 She.

21:51 Speaker 1 Ah, she’s from Meah Shearim, in Jerusalem. That’s for a Rebbe. Which Rebbe? That’s Friedel. [unclear].

22:01 Speaker 2 He has to—

22:02 Speaker 1 And the gabbaim, the gabbaim.

22:04 Speaker 2 Question: What happened with Shvotayler [?] and the soul?

22:07 Speaker 1 Yes, let’s say. What happened? When they arrived, they traveled then. But he—he was—yes. Did he arrive? That was Friday. It was Friday.

22:32 Speaker 2 That’s right, Shvotayler [?].

22:34 Speaker 1 Yes. So they go into— from there. There. They get all the way, all the way to the end. He had it. He was the one standing there. Then suddenly, Shivotayler [?]. That’s also something to write down sometime. They give it. So now there’s—

22:51 Speaker 2 Completely in that part.

22:53 Speaker 1 And he arrived. Now, it’s known that Shivotayler [?] didn’t know that. He arrived—

22:59 Speaker 2 So you also get to it in Yiddish?

23:02 Speaker 1 Yes. And in the end he went in. Did he come? He came. He was standing there at that very moment. That’s our [unclear]. The Rebbe called. They called. So they came there and gave it. So that’s what we do. That really is something.

23:21 Speaker 2 Yes.

23:24 Speaker 1 But they asked. Later they were asked. She knew that his matter was a doctor. He only came to it twenty years later. Twenty, Rebbe. Had he come earlier? He didn’t know that... Shivotayler [?], but to give that. So to make it work out. So to do that.

23:42 Speaker 2 Yes.

23:42 Speaker 1 And he called. He was standing at the end. At the end.

23:46 Speaker 2 He wasn’t there for— for the reading of Shema.

23:47 Speaker 1 He wasn’t. Yes, he wasn’t there before the reading of Shema.

23:51 Speaker 2 He called him.

23:52 Speaker 1 Yes, they called. So, good fortune. Good fortune. That’s the point.

23:56 Speaker 2 Yes. Okay, let’s say— let’s go back a little. This was in Kharkov—

24:01 Speaker 1 Yes, they were the first thing. They were. So, so that gives another five hundred, uh, in money.

24:10 Speaker 2 They were already doing well there, too.

24:11 Speaker 1 Yes. No, that’s—

24:13 Speaker 2 Uh, with— with the previous one.

24:15 Speaker 1 Yes, that was the first thing done. That’s [unclear] G-d. That’s payment. [Unclear] from Russia—that’s payment. You know what happened? Mainly with Yash [?].

24:29 Speaker 2 Exactly. First order.

24:33 Speaker 1 Yes.

24:34 Speaker 2 That was in Kharkov. What happened in Kharkov? Uh. Your father— uh, your father and mother? Was the groom in Kharkov?

24:44 Speaker 1 I can’t say. I can’t say whether the groom was in Kharkov. So here we need to say: it was Kherson. That’s where [unclear] was. What happened in Kharkov? We’ll have to find out later. She— my [unclear] was—

24:57 Speaker 2 It became a task. They were asked.

25:00 Speaker 1 They said the mother lived in Kherson. That’s where [unclear] was.

25:04 Speaker 2 So [unclear].

25:05 Speaker 1 So Baskin [?]. He was— he was— he was the rabbi in Kherson.

25:14 Speaker 2 Was he a chossid?

25:15 Speaker 1 Yes, a chossid, yes.

25:16 Speaker 2 From them.

25:19 Speaker 1 He was, he was, he was with Rabbi Schwab. He came to Rabbi Schwab beforehand and said, “Do you want a blessing? He has daughters.” “No, we have a son.” I had a blessing for a son. The rabbi said, “You’ll be able to sleep, you’ll see. They’ll have grandchildren, beautiful ones like we’ve seen with others.” So every grandchild, every grandchild from— grandchildren, yes, four grandchildren. Something, uh...

26:34 Speaker 2 In Kharkov or Kherson?

26:53 Speaker 1 Yes, we lived in Kharkov.

26:55 Speaker 2 Ah.

26:56 Speaker 1 That was in Kharkov; that was also with— But no, we left there earlier.

27:00 Speaker 2 Okay, let’s say this much more: your mother was from Kherson, [unclear] was a chossid, and you lived in Kharkov.

27:06 Speaker 1 Yes, lived in Kharkov, yes.

27:08 Speaker 2 And you were born there?

27:11 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, in Kharkov.

27:12 Speaker 2 In Kharkov.

27:13 Speaker 1 My brother and sister too.

27:15 Speaker 2 And do you remember Kharkov?

27:16 Speaker 1 But I remember the house because of that, yes. Yes, we lived well. I forgot—we were in business in Kharkov. We were there with the children, with— that’s where we worked, worked in...

27:26 Speaker 2 And what happened during the war?

27:35 Speaker 1 But we fled from there.

27:37 Speaker 2 To the left?

27:38 Speaker 1 Yes, I remember. We went by train, by train—that’s how we traveled.

27:41 Speaker 2 Before the Nazis reached Kharkov?

27:43 Speaker 1 And with the children, yes, we fled with them. And we traveled, but we went very far.

27:48 Speaker 2 How old were you then, when you fled?

27:50 Speaker 1 I was young then, uh, I was ten or thirteen, thirty-four.

27:56 Speaker 2 But you must remember—

27:57 Speaker 1 Yes, I remember. We traveled, we left there. And—

28:03 Speaker 2 Where did you go?

28:04 Speaker 1 We went— to, to— we reached America. We’re traveling. And they said, like this, uh, Simcha Gorodetsky [?]. There was— Rabbi Schwab sent [us] then and said, “Go to America.” So Bukharan Jews lived there too. Jews, observant Jews. Bukharan Jews. There was— and he did— he didn’t go. So he said that I was the— what do you call it? What? I went there.

28:32 Speaker 2 Before— before the war?

28:33 Speaker 1 Before the war, thirty, even earlier.

28:34 Speaker 2 And then they sent [you] there?

28:36 Speaker 1 Yes, and we would travel— by bus. It was, it was, it was— there were Jews there, observant Jews lived there. There were different kinds of Jews.

28:44 Speaker 2 From them.

28:45 Speaker 1 But, but we— but there was no bus to that place. So we reached America. There we hoped and did what we could.

28:53 Speaker 2 And were they taken in, too?

28:54 Speaker 1 It was— the first year there was hunger in America. There was hunger all the time. People died.

28:59 Speaker 2 Was there hunger in Russia too?

29:01 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. Never. Yes, no, five, ten years. I could only live in America.

29:05 Speaker 2 Yes.

29:05 Speaker 1 Because many people, many fled. They weren’t attacked, because it was American work. There was no war there.

29:14 Speaker 2 So a lot of people reached [unclear]?

29:15 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

29:17 Speaker 2 And were they hungry?

29:18 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. But, but afterward, uh, it was bad. The war lasted four years. With getting gas, with, uh, they used it, secretly, they learned. It all went on. They changed names. So, so, so they— the Communists wouldn’t let them send [anything] then.

29:40 Speaker 2 Ah. The war went on all that time. Normally, as Jews—

29:45 Speaker 1 They seized it.

29:46 Speaker 2 Was there a cheder?

29:47 Speaker 1 A house, yes, yes.

29:49 Speaker 2 Later, after the war—

29:51 Speaker 1 Later they saw with the— uh, they were the... In Russia there were weak Russians who invaded, who broke in.

30:02 Speaker 2 From them.

30:03 Speaker 1 The Communists didn’t know. But, but... but it was forbidden. They were at war. And they were— this, this was then— this, this was Poland, the war— uh, Poland and Russia were together then.

30:16 Speaker 2 The Second World War?

30:17 Speaker 1 The Second World War. Yes, against the—

30:19 Speaker 2 Against the Germans.

30:19 Speaker 1 Against the Germans. This, this— but, but, we— this— they thought that the Poles— there were many of them from Poland, and, and, and they suffered blows; in Poland there was— there was— they fled into Russia. There were many; that was the war— they, they were together, they allowed it, but they left [unclear]. So people lived there. Many people died of hunger, of— of the cold.

30:51 Speaker 2 The Poles?

30:52 Speaker 1 Later, when the war ended, uh, uh, they released them, the Poles. That was, that was Poland’s own war, but chassidim, [unclear] gave, [unclear] gave a great many passports.

31:10 Speaker 2 Those— those who had them?

31:12 Speaker 1 Yes.

31:13 Speaker 2 They were already, uh, dead.

31:14 Speaker 1 Yes. And in another way, uh, the state said— the Polish state itself had, had, had [unclear].

31:25 Speaker 2 [Unclear].

31:25 Speaker 1 Passports. Uh, only they were, were, were compelled, compelled, to let the Communists leave Russia. They had already let many, many enter Russia then.

31:38 Speaker 2 They’re still asking— what’s slipped my mind? What was it— someone in Samarkand? They live [unclear]. I think, the, the, the—

31:45 Speaker 1 Samarkand was good. They had [unclear]. They did things. And they had difficulty with the gas, what they did for the head. They did it on the gas. They were the—

31:56 Speaker 2 I think I [unclear] from someone.

31:57 Speaker 1 That’s how [unclear], what’s in it, but that’s how it is. In, in, in Samarkand there was, uh, uh, they were—but [unclear] did it.

32:09 Speaker 2 They lived with it. But there was poverty then.

32:11 Speaker 1 No, no. No, not poverty. The opposite. The opposite in Samarkand. Yes. It went on, went on, uh, uh, yes, people were working. They worked. They worked. They were. It went on, yes. And it went on. They worked with things like paints. That was the business. But it was very good.

32:39 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. That fits the period. Later, later there was the war. The Communists started setting things up.

32:45 Speaker 1 There was.

32:47 Speaker 2 What— what do you think about that, about that?

32:48 Speaker 1 You have to know how it worked. No, not to say. Not to know. Not to give up. To give up. We always had that, uh, uh, above, beyond that gas, where, where in the valley it was, where it went. Uh, they still wouldn’t allow it. But, but the traveler was, was. That’s, that’s how it was. When there is, there is here. We say Lemberg. There’s a house here in Lemberg.

33:16 Speaker 2 After what? You— you were all in Görlitz [?].

33:19 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Lemberg was in Russia.

33:22 Speaker 2 No, after we all left Samarkand.

33:24 Speaker 1 Yes, from Samarkand. Yes. But yes, we were in Samarkand.

33:28 Speaker 2 Somehow they knew; everyone was in [unclear], that we were all ready. So there was luck, [unclear] in that.

33:35 Speaker 1 They, they came. They were with me. Gorodetsky [?]. That’s difficult. Narrow/thin.

33:40 Speaker 2 A shul.

33:41 Speaker 1 That’s it. Uh. They said the Torah scrolls were there. As the Rebbe said, that, that, that Father was from here in Poland. Yes. From Russia they went to Poland. Poland didn’t belong to the Communists. Poland had a different government. And the Frierdiker Rebbe said that we should not, not remain in Poland. Not stay—leave. So, that meant to me that— So, so the intention was different: we didn’t want to be in Poland. But there were Torah scrolls. Later he said not, not to remain in Poland, because later Poland became Communist.

34:19 Speaker 2 Yes.

34:19 Speaker 1 But yes, for a time.

34:20 Speaker 2 But here, Father— Father was still there, so we had to travel.

34:25 Speaker 1 We traveled, yes.

34:27 Speaker 2 Were there forged passports?

34:28 Speaker 1 But Polish ones. Yes, but that was then.

34:30 Speaker 2 But from whom did they get— get the, the passports?

34:34 Speaker 1 Oh, of the people—two people died. This was with Liber Mashkin. He said that those people, those in the graves, had died, and the Polish government itself said, “Oh, this, this is the name, this...” The government itself made forged documents. Quite the opposite. He knows Russia. Poland, for the government. That was it. It was one of the first things when we left.

35:12 Speaker 2 I think—the trip, to travel?

35:14 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. But we had a home there. My father had a home in Lemberg. There was a home there.

35:21 Speaker 2 After we—

35:22 Speaker 1 Before. No, before, before. Just before. That’s where it was done. That’s where they studied in cheder and so on. Later the whole government was there, all of it with papers. There was a home. But—

35:35 Speaker 2 That was earlier, when you traveled to Lemberg, and in Lemberg you had all the passports and everything.

35:40 Speaker 1 Yes. That was different. It went by the house, not otherwise. They went around to the houses. People were hiding there. They registered everyone there. Yes, the government needed to know every person’s address.

35:54 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

35:55 Speaker 1 They needed to know. There was a home there. He had the right to be in Lemberg.

36:01 Speaker 2 He had the right?

36:01 Speaker 1 Yes.

36:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

36:04 Speaker 1 Afterward, when the Germans left, people went with their children. With children, they were already traveling through Germany. That was Yudkislav[?]. It was different. Yudkislav[?]. And—

36:16 Speaker 2 Did all of you travel to Yudkislav[?]?

36:17 Speaker 1 Yes, Yudkislav[?].

36:18 Speaker 2 From Russia?

36:19 Speaker 1 Yes, from... And the second place I passed through with him was Tsekislov[?]. After that was Dvatov[?]. Dvatov[?]. Later they made jokes. The government itself wouldn’t allow it. The Communists.

36:37 Speaker 2 There were people, uh—

36:39 Speaker 1 That’s what they were.

36:41 Speaker 2 All the languages, everything—someone? [unclear]?

36:44 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. All the languages. A thousand languages. They say, they say that’s how it was. But Rebbetzin Chana—Rebbetzin Chana traveled.

36:58 Speaker 2 Yes.

36:58 Speaker 1 Through what?

36:59 Speaker 2 The system. Uh-huh.

37:00 Speaker 1 It was there. The Rebbe—they came. The Rebbe—they came to Paris then. They took us.

37:07 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

37:08 Speaker 1 To, to, to...

37:09 Speaker 2 Afterward?

37:10 Speaker 1 Yes, afterward. Later too. To bring—that was in America. They always had time, always. At that time, the Rebbe did it. The Frierdiker Rebbe was there. He wasn’t well. So the doctor would sometimes come and give an injection, an intravenous injection.

37:38 Speaker 2 For the Frierdiker Rebbe?

37:39 Speaker 1 Yes, for his heart. And he had to come in, and there was the Rebbe’s... on the table.

37:49 Speaker 2 With the cup on the table?

37:50 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

37:51 Speaker 2 In his hand.

37:52 Speaker 1 And I must say, I could come to the Rebbe and shake his hand. That was Rosh Hashanah. I think you know about it. I think so. But I think that at the time I was at the yeshiva on Bedford. I was busy.

38:09 Speaker 2 Was that the same week?

38:10 Speaker 1 Huh?

38:11 Speaker 2 Was that the same week, then?

38:12 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. So I gave him an injection. Then I could come to the Rebbe. And then the Rebbe traveled. It was an incident. This is what happened. The Rebbe was there at the time, and he said, “What do I need for myself?” He didn’t have it. He said—

38:29 Speaker 2 The Rebbe said?

38:30 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said. At that time, the Rebbe—what happened then?

38:33 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

38:34 Speaker 1 So he said, “Yasher.”

38:37 Speaker 2 The Frierdiker Rebbe said “Yasher koach” then—you mean?

38:39 Speaker 1 He said “Yasher” three times, three times. Well, thank G-d, we got through it. Those three times he said “Yasher”—meaning, it opened the way for the three... for our going out of Egypt. They were leaving Russia. The three are Yud Kislev, Kislev. The Rebbe said “Yasher,” because they had to be able to travel out.

39:02 Speaker 2 Yes, that was [unclear]—they had to travel out?

39:04 Speaker 1 Yes, they were there at that time.

39:05 Speaker 2 At that time.

39:06 Speaker 1 Yes. We had already traveled out, but not everyone had. He said that, with Heaven’s help, it would come.

39:10 Speaker 2 Yes.

39:11 Speaker 1 Interesting. Do you understand?

39:14 Speaker 2 Okay, you were, you were...

39:16 Speaker 1 Interesting. But what I wanted to say to finish this: when the Rebbe was in Paris, Zalman Butman was there, and [unclear], his son.

39:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

39:27 Speaker 1 The Rebbe stood beside his chair, and there were... All those people, all the rabbis, all the Rebbes were there too. They were all in Paris then. It was like this: the Rebbe said that Zalman Butman... the Rebbe was there, and so on. The Rebbe also spoke like that once at a farbrengen, specifically on Rosh Chodesh. So they would come and speak. Wherever the Rebbe was in Russia, too, he would speak and farbreng. That was it.

40:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

40:04 Speaker 1 But it hadn’t been decided that he would speak in Tamashke. So he came. He told me... he came there, but he was born in Tver. Then Grandfather said he was going to speak. He spoke so people could more or less hear. He came. I know what they wrote to him: that he was just about three already. And afterward she was there... the grad went up onto [unclear]. People heard it; they had been waiting. The Rebbe’s brother was there. This was after the grad. Grandfather said he went around to listen and pushed his way inside. He came and stood at the back. By then the people were packed together, so he stood all the way at the back. Afterward, he went with the Rebbe’s brother. There was a tall man there. He wrote, “The Rebbe’s brother.” The one who wrote it went in to see him. What do I know? The Rebbe answered. But the Rebbe looked at him and said, “Are you the man? Were you standing there with the Rebbe’s brother?” That’s what he wrote to the Rebbe: “But they were Rebbes like that...”

41:29 Speaker 2 “Your guard is a convert.” That’s what the Rebbe said.

41:35 Speaker 1 Your guard is a convert?

41:37 Speaker 2 Yes. Okay. Um, you were in Lemberg for a while?

41:44 Speaker 1 Yes.

41:45 Speaker 2 And you studied and settled there until everyone traveled on?

41:49 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes, there in Lemberg.

41:51 Speaker 2 And that well-known journey—was it from Lemberg to Lvov?

41:56 Speaker 1 I’m getting to it—from Lvov, yes.

41:58 Speaker 2 From Lvov, yes.

41:59 Speaker 1 From Lvov to Krakow.

42:01 Speaker 2 Krakow.

42:01 Speaker 1 In Krakow.

42:03 Speaker 2 Okay. And after Krakow, she remembers—the most striking thing you told us was that we looked at the passports while they were on the way, on the way...

42:11 Speaker 1 Yes.

42:11 Speaker 2 ...to Krakow.

42:13 Speaker 1 Yes, later, with me.

42:15 Speaker 2 And she was in [unclear] there?

42:17 Speaker 1 No, they came to Krakow.

42:19 Speaker 2 No, before that? At the front?

42:22 Speaker 1 Well, well, Rabbi, I don’t know, but they certainly traveled through there. It was different.

42:30 Speaker 2 Yes, different. And the Rebbe’s mother—do you remember the Rebbe’s mother from...

42:34 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. It was like this: the Rebbe’s mother was in... she was in a place called Babalos.

42:42 Speaker 2 Later, my dear one traveled and arrived in Pocking.

42:45 Speaker 1 Things happened in Pocking, and afterward she was—she was in Germany. Pocking was in Germany.

42:49 Speaker 2 Yes.

42:49 Speaker 1 And in Austria she was by herself, not with the others. I had that. I had that. Grandfather...

42:53 Speaker 2 Did she travel to Austria afterward?

42:54 Speaker 1 No. At the time people traveled, some went and stayed in Pocking, and others stayed in Vienna. There was a workshop there. There was...

43:03 Speaker 2 But were they, [unclear], in Pocking?

43:05 Speaker 1 [unclear] was in Vienna.

43:08 Speaker 2 Where is that?

43:08 Speaker 1 Vienna—Vienna is in Austria.

43:10 Speaker 2 Austria.

43:12 Speaker 1 And the courtyard there—she certainly had a camp somewhere in Europe. Vienna was in Europe. That was hard too. He went then as well, and, uh...

43:25 Speaker 2 Niskin, Grandfather?

43:26 Speaker 1 No, Niskin, Grandfather. But he lived here later. He came to you there. I mean, Niskin, Grandfather—he went, he went. He lived here. [unclear] with that, with the journey, with the front.

43:43 Speaker 2 5 Teves.

43:44 Speaker 1 Huh?

43:45 Speaker 2 5 Teves.

43:45 Speaker 1 Yes. This is all very... The Rebbe asked Varov whether I needed to go...

43:53 Speaker 2 Yes.

43:53 Speaker 1 ...onto the government lists.

43:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

43:55 Speaker 1 They... This is all... The rabbi, [unclear], was completely straightforward with Grandfather. That’s what he said. He could rule; he knew where to rule. So, so...

44:08 Speaker 2 Did he live in Williamsburg?

44:10 Speaker 1 No, he lived... later. I remember this—he lived here in [unclear] Park. He...

44:16 Speaker 2 He doesn’t remember the name.

44:18 Speaker 1 With Rabbi [unclear]. That’s the name.

44:20 Speaker 2 The name?

44:21 Speaker 1 He doesn’t remember.

44:22 Speaker 2 He connected it with...

44:23 Speaker 1 He connected it with going to [unclear]. He lived simply, too. Peretz, that’s...

44:33 Speaker 2 Not in [unclear].

44:33 Speaker 1 Not in [unclear], yes. So Peretz is connected to that same man. It’s been with us for ten, twenty years. It’s connected, it’s connected...

44:41 Speaker 2 You—the Rebbe—you, you...

44:43 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, the Rebbe. That I do remember, yes...

44:48 Speaker 2 I see you too.

44:50 Speaker 1 Yes, that’s the perf—

44:53 Speaker 2 Do you also have [unclear]?

44:54 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. On every train. I don’t know where I came from. I was eighteen.

44:57 Speaker 2 Yes. Tell us about the concern for the Rebbe’s mother at that time.

45:01 Speaker 1 Yes, that was it. He knows. Mother was... Esther, Esther. Mother Esther of Makhalspoy. Esther. From Makh...

45:16 Speaker 2 Makhalspoy.

45:17 Speaker 1 Makhal, Makhal.

45:18 Speaker 2 You don’t remember, or...?

45:19 Speaker 1 Oh, yes. And another woman—that was his mother’s...

45:29 Speaker 2 No—

45:29 Speaker 1 Krasik—Krasik’s wife. His sister, my mother’s sister.

45:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

45:38 Speaker 1 They... they hoped there. They hoped for... They waited, hoping and waiting there in the room. So they also took—

45:51 Speaker 2 They hoped for the Rebbe’s mother.

45:53 Speaker 1 Mother, yes.

45:53 Speaker 2 Their hopes.

45:54 Speaker 1 Yes, that’s how it was. The ones in the cheder were in the cheder. I don’t know. They had already been married for years, I think. So the Rebbe came. When they asked for a bracha—when they came to the previous Rebbe, they came to him themselves. That was even before then. They asked for a bracha to have children. They had children.

46:19 Speaker 2 Both of them?

46:19 Speaker 1 Both of them. With Berl’s mother, she had a child, but he passed away in Samarkand. And Esther—no, she didn’t have a child.

46:35 Speaker 2 Esther had none at all.

46:36 Speaker 1 None at all, yes. When they came, after several letters—they only received a letter later—that the Rebbe had blessed them. They had asked.

46:44 Speaker 2 That was the Frierdiker Rebbe, to her.

46:45 Speaker 1 He blessed her. And... what was I saying? That was Esther, but with us there was no [unclear]. Then she had a child, and she wasn’t well for a year. She lay in bed, unwell.

47:00 Speaker 2 The baby?

47:01 Speaker 1 Yes?

47:02 Speaker 2 The child?

47:03 Speaker 1 No, no, she herself.

47:04 Speaker 2 Oh, the mother.

47:04 Speaker 1 The child was fine.

47:05 Speaker 2 Yes.

47:06 Speaker 1 The mother, who—

47:07 Speaker 2 We were in America then.

47:09 Speaker 1 No, she... that was still at home, in Pocking [unclear].

47:11 Speaker 2 Oh, in Pocking.

47:13 Speaker 1 Still at home. But she had a child. It was her only one then, but I already knew Esther, her mother, Atte [unclear], all of that. And her daughter was born, born. They had waited so very long for Esther’s [unclear], and she was born. Later she had four children. That too was a miracle from the Rebbe.

47:30 Speaker 2 That could be a miracle from the Rebbe. The Rebbe came. Where? Okay, what? He... he wasn’t in Pocking.

47:39 Speaker 1 We were in Havan [unclear]. We were—

47:41 Speaker 2 The yeshiva must have been there?

47:42 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. In Havan he was also waiting for something. They were there in—in Pocking they waited—in Havan, Shlomo Chaim was waiting; he could—

47:50 Speaker 2 Shlomo Chaim was there.

47:51 Speaker 1 That was—he was still in Warsaw; that was another place. The Babisher was there. The Rebbe wrote to Shlomo Chaim that he should travel to Havan, for whatever it was—

48:03 Speaker 2 Needed, needed help—

48:05 Speaker 1 No.

48:05 Speaker 2 —needed help.

48:06 Speaker 1 Yes. In Havan they arrived—the yeshiva was in Havan; there was a yeshiva. And he was sitting in Toulouse [unclear]. That was Shlomo—

48:15 Speaker 2 Did anyone study in the yeshiva? Or were there—

48:17 Speaker 1 Later, yes. No, we had a cheder. Also—

48:20 Speaker 2 Did Shlomo Chaim teach you?

48:22 Speaker 1 No, no. He taught—that was something else. That was in Russia.

48:36 Speaker 2 And it was called a regular “shop”?

48:38 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. There was a year. We—I think later—I only remember that we davened together with the neighbors. I swear, we davened. But the Babisher had a side [unclear], I think, for ten years. They came—I don’t believe it anymore. No, he said they came. That was the cheder where they came. I think the Babisher had gone ahead earlier. They were waiting to travel to Israel, waiting to have a child with them. But the Babisher traveled with the Rebbe—

49:08 Speaker 2 What?

49:10 Speaker 1 The Babisher had gone ahead earlier, from—

49:14 Speaker 2 Why did they travel to Paris?

49:15 Speaker 1 They traveled to Paris, yes.

49:16 Speaker 2 That was on the Frierdiker Rebbe’s instruction.

49:17 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

49:18 Speaker 2 Aha.

49:18 Speaker 1 And the other one talks about it too. But perhaps those are two separate accounts. The Babisher went first, because that was—out of fourteen whole [unclear], the Babisher did it.

49:29 Speaker 2 The Babisher had all the [unclear] of the places there. Okay, so the Rebbe was in Paris then?

49:38 Speaker 1 He was in Paris, he was—

49:40 Speaker 2 When was that? 5707?

49:44 Speaker 1 No, 5707.

49:45 Speaker 2 Five—

49:47 Speaker 1 5707.

49:47 Speaker 2 When was he in Paris? Oh, Mother had already—

49:49 Speaker 1 5707, yes.

49:49 Speaker 2 That was just a few months earlier.

49:53 Speaker 1 Huh?

49:53 Speaker 2 They had already been in Austria for a while.

49:56 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. In Austria. We were there a year.

49:59 Speaker 2 A year. So, okay, Paris. What happened in Paris?

50:03 Speaker 1 In Paris there was the yeshiva from Havan. The whole yeshiva came—

50:10 Speaker 2 How old was he in Paris? Twelve?

50:14 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. No, somewhere around that. On Wednesday we were in Paris, with Yehoshua.

50:19 Speaker 2 What, did he study in Brunoy?

50:21 Speaker 1 He studied in Brunoy, but later. But I didn’t say—this was the president who came along. Or the story of the Rebbe, the previous Rebbe. The story of the previous Rebbe—that was only [unclear].

50:40 Speaker 2 The president?

50:41 Speaker 1 The president was only [unclear].

50:42 Speaker 2 Aha.

50:43 Speaker 1 The [unclear], [unclear], shechita—he couldn’t say that. So it wasn’t good for us. That was why it had to happen. What was it? That was the matter. But it concerned shechita. That was when Israel and England did it, something to do with arranging it.

51:06 Speaker 2 Oh, the state?

51:07 Speaker 1 Yes. And that’s how it ended. So I... [unclear]. They had their passports with them. Then, little by little, it developed. I still never got to see for myself how it was.

51:21 Speaker 2 Aha.

51:23 Speaker 1 It became Ireland, Ireland. Ireland is different. Dublin, Ireland.

51:32 Speaker 2 Ireland.

51:33 Speaker 1 Ireland is Ireland. Yes.

51:34 Speaker 2 Aha.

51:35 Speaker 1 I was very pleased that they took it from—England had held onto them, but Ireland belonged to itself. Ireland belonged to itself. They—

51:44 Speaker 2 So Israel belonged to itself?

51:46 Speaker 1 No.

51:47 Speaker 2 Ireland did, then.

51:48 Speaker 1 Yes, but Ireland didn’t want any connection with it. Ireland wanted its own protected state.

51:52 Speaker 2 Aha.

51:53 Speaker 1 So for them it was seen as a danger, because they gave—they gave this thing [unclear]. They really had it. They supplied meat for Israel for two years. So for them it was a gift, and their state belonged to—

52:11 Speaker 2 I understand. So as soon as Ireland didn’t want to—

52:15 Speaker 1 Ireland didn’t want to. England wanted to—Ireland wanted to put pressure on England.

52:22 Speaker 2 Right, yes.

52:23 Speaker 1 Yes. And now that Israel came into being, right? It was taken from England, so that Israel would have the service. For them, that was very welcome.

52:32 Speaker 2 Oh.

52:33 Speaker 1 For them they gave—

52:33 Speaker 2 Because England was really an enemy.

52:35 Speaker 1 Huh?

52:36 Speaker 2 Because England was really an enemy. They couldn’t help Israel.

52:38 Speaker 1 Yes. Because they supplied meat for two years. For them it came from their own state.

52:43 Speaker 2 Yes.

52:44 Speaker 1 There were shochtim for it. There were thirty shochtim. What the Frierdiker Rebbe—what they [unclear].

52:52 Speaker 2 In other words, it really was a—

52:54 Speaker 1 No.

52:55 Speaker 2 A miracle? I mean, the Frierdiker Rebbe watched over it.

52:57 Speaker 1 That year the shochtim had to travel to... There were thirty of them.

53:00 Speaker 2 And your aunt was one of them?

53:01 Speaker 1 Yes. So...

53:03 Speaker 2 All together?

53:04 Speaker 1 Huh?

53:04 Speaker 2 Did they all perform shechita together?

53:06 Speaker 1 Yes, all of them. They went in that direction. And as shochtim themselves, did they understand from this that it came from the Frierdiker Rebbe? No.

53:14 Speaker 2 But there were other times when the Frierdiker Rebbe said to stay in Paris, weren’t there?

53:18 Speaker 1 In Paris? Yes.

53:19 Speaker 2 In France.

53:21 Speaker 1 But afterward it was there. They wrote; they traveled to London. That was later, much later.

53:25 Speaker 2 So soon your aunt and your family moved to Dublin. Your father, you later—

53:32 Speaker 1 No, we were... we still stayed in Paris.

53:34 Speaker 2 Oh, your aunt traveled alone?

53:35 Speaker 1 My aunt traveled alone too.

53:38 Speaker 2 Oh, not with the family?

53:39 Speaker 1 The family didn’t travel. What? The family didn’t go. They had... they had work and went. First of all—what happened then? They didn’t go. Only the shochtim traveled, on their own.

53:53 Speaker 2 Aha. Who did you study under in Brunoy?

53:56 Speaker 1 In Brunoy? There was a yeshiva there. But does that change things for me? Change things for me? Here they brought me to London.

54:08 Speaker 2 But did you study under Nissan?

54:10 Speaker 1 In the yeshiva, in Brunoy.

54:11 Speaker 2 Was Chaim Elazar there?

54:13 Speaker 1 In Brunoy? Yes, Shmuel Chaim [unclear]. In the first years it was Shmuel Chaim [unclear]. For half the years it was Shmuel Chaim [unclear], all the “babes” [unclear]. But later Nissan—when they came from Paris, they came—

54:24 Speaker 2 Who took it upon himself?

54:25 Speaker 1 Nissan. They studied—Nissan became the “babes” [unclear] in the yeshiva.

54:28 Speaker 2 Oh. He studied with the shluchim and with Nissan in Brunoy?

54:32 Speaker 1 Yes.

54:34 Speaker 2 Who else was there—the holy [unclear]?

54:41 Speaker 1 What? Yes, him too. He was also in [unclear].

54:48 Speaker 2 He was there too. And how did he travel with “Liebe” [unclear] to England? What happened?

54:52 Speaker 1 Afterward, he worked for ten years in... in England. Then—

54:59 Speaker 2 Dublin?

55:01 Speaker 1 No, with... yes, already before that.

55:03 Speaker 2 Dublin?

55:04 Speaker 1 My aunt, my aunt.

55:05 Speaker 2 Yes.

55:06 Speaker 1 And she was there. Abramsky was there. Do you know Abramsky?

55:16 Speaker 2 Yechezkel Abramsky?

55:17 Speaker 1 Huh? Yechezkel Abramsky. He wanted meat to be available. He was the rabbi, a rav. But he wanted there to be [unclear]. That was the shechita.

55:35 Speaker 2 In England?

55:36 Speaker 1 In England. My aunt went to England, yes. They were embarrassed about how it had come about. And I believe my aunt was a shochet. That was how he tested her on it.

55:49 Speaker 2 So people could eat from her shechita?

55:50 Speaker 1 Yes.

55:51 Speaker 2 Did a couple of chassidim, a group of chassidim, move to England?

55:55 Speaker 1 Only two. My aunt and—

55:58 Speaker 2 And your grandfather? Where was your grandfather?

56:02 Speaker 1 My grandfather was in Paris. He came too, years later.

56:04 Speaker 2 Later?

56:05 Speaker 1 But later—he came years later.

56:07 Speaker 2 So where—was he in London?

56:10 Speaker 1 No—oh, in Paris? No, in London.

56:13 Speaker 2 No, in England. She says, was it in London?

56:14 Speaker 1 London, London, yes.

56:17 Speaker 2 So where—where did you study in yeshiva?

56:20 Speaker 1 In—in yeshiva I studied—there was—you could travel back and forth to the yeshiva.

56:24 Speaker 2 With the... you didn’t know him?

56:26 Speaker 1 With that, but to go there, because they were far away. It was in Manchester. There was a yeshiva in Manchester.

56:32 Speaker 2 I understand. To travel—[unclear]—

56:35 Speaker 1 [unclear] in London. Yes.

56:36 Speaker 2 Yes.

56:37 Speaker 1 It was, it was, it was a trip to... There was a yeshiva in London, but here, here they also traveled to yeshiva a second time. There was a yeshiva in Manchester, and Dubov there was one of—

56:49 Speaker 2 Yehoshua Dubov?

56:50 Speaker 1 Yes. Dubov was one—he—

56:52 Speaker 2 So we thought that we could send the children to Yehoshua Dubov in—

56:55 Speaker 1 Manchester.

56:56 Speaker 2 But it wasn’t exactly at the yeshiva. It was—

56:58 Speaker 1 Well, but, but, uh, the... the yeshiva circle, the Jewish circle, it, it became... His father founded a yeshiva. Tzikel’s [?] father.

57:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

57:12 Speaker 1 He wasn’t—uh, uh, uh, young, that’s how it seems, that’s exactly how it seems—not to be—not to be there.

57:19 Speaker 2 Young children?

57:20 Speaker 1 Yes.

57:20 Speaker 2 In yeshiva?

57:21 Speaker 1 Yeshiva, something like that.

57:22 Speaker 2 He was young?

57:23 Speaker 1 Yes, young. But the son—he, but he told me—that he was going to yeshiva. And there wasn’t any yeshiva. [unclear]—

57:31 Speaker 2 [unclear], yes.

57:32 Speaker 1 But he had a yeshiva. But he sent his son, and he ended up... he, he went to the Chofetz Chaim.

57:39 Speaker 2 In... in... in Europe?

57:41 Speaker 1 Huh?

57:42 Speaker 2 In Poland?

57:43 Speaker 1 Yes, uh, no. Before Manchester. The... father, the one who founded the yeshiva. I know his name. He, he sent his son to yeshiva in London.

57:55 Speaker 2 The Chofetz Chaim?

57:56 Speaker 1 He sent him to the Chofetz Chaim’s yeshiva. In Lithuania, in Lithuania.

58:00 Speaker 2 In Lithuania, Lithuania.

58:01 Speaker 1 Yes. He was there with the Chofetz Chaim. And how—he didn’t come; he came later. But the Chofetz Chaim heard—

58:08 Speaker 2 The Chofetz Chaim.

58:09 Speaker 1 Most of the things about the Chofetz Chaim happened at, at, at—this is printed, it, it—they were there at the gathering of rabbis. And they were... but the Rebbe of Ger was there. But they, they were then—there was, there was [unclear]. That didn’t say anything. The Rebbe Rashab said, and he said that when rabbis argue, he says something different from the Rebbe of Babov [?]; he himself argues about my [unclear]. So that’s what the Chofetz Chaim said. And... and... uh, one of the rabbis said to him, “Not the Rebbe Rashab.” That is, he says it this way—he says, “I [unclear].”

58:53 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

58:55 Speaker 1 It’s printed, what’s it called. And the Rebbe Rashab, they, together with the Frierdiker Rebbe, told him, “You’ll go back—how will you go back?”

59:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So with us, uh, they—the rosh yeshiva—

59:06 Speaker 1 He was—

59:07 Speaker 2 He wasn’t young, and he left—

59:09 Speaker 1 There were others; there were other things too.

59:10 Speaker 2 So who, who was in yeshiva with you from [unclear]?

59:15 Speaker 1 Yes, it was just—there was my brother, Shmuel Dovid, my other brother. And, and, and Ber—Avraham Moshe Neta [?] and Ber Mochotovas [?]. Only three of us ended up there.

59:25 Speaker 2 And Ber Moshe Neta—which one?

59:27 Speaker 1 No, Ber Moshe Neta, I think, uh, traveled. Before the war he went—

59:31 Speaker 2 To New York?

59:31 Speaker 1 To New York, yes.

59:32 Speaker 2 So what years are we talking about? Are we talking about ’11? ’12?

59:36 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, ’11, ’12. We were there until—uh, afterward we traveled from Manchester. Rifkin was there. Rifkin was there. I went there—I went to the shul—to the shul. I was there. And, and, and he—and Rifkin, they were—uh, I, uh—as you know, Rifkin became a chossid. And I think about how fortunate he was, and, and they dared to do it there at the time. I can say, “Mama, I had [unclear].” And, uh, all the time—

1:00:05 Speaker 2 Was it Lubavitch?

1:00:06 Speaker 1 It was Lubavitch.

1:00:07 Speaker 2 Rifkin.

1:00:07 Speaker 1 It was—it, it—I was there in the shul. So, uh, [unclear] happened there. So, so, so he sat there. Uh, uh, he sat here wearing hats like in Russia, with the—Russian hats, as they used to wear them. But they—

1:00:26 Speaker 2 [unclear].

1:00:27 Speaker 1 Yes, but in England they do require that; they wear completely different hats. In England it’s very narrow, and the rabbi, of course, wears a stiff hat—

1:00:37 Speaker 2 A rabbinic one?

1:00:38 Speaker 1 Yes, but stiff like that. So, uh, uh, uh—but I sent him to the rabbi, because the Rebbe said, “No, that’s what we tell them.”

1:00:46 Speaker 2 The Frierdiker Rebbe?

1:00:47 Speaker 1 The Frierdiker Rebbe, yes.

1:00:48 Speaker 2 That’s what you tell them?

1:00:49 Speaker 1 Yes. Did he have—did he have—another Rebbe? No, but then, then he—did he wear the hat even while sleeping? Only later did he come with the hat. And despite that, they were saved; they were fired upon during the war. The Germans fired, in England. Then, then a bomb also landed on, on a chair.

1:01:07 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:01:08 Speaker 1 And, and for me—it also landed on [unclear].

1:01:12 Speaker 2 From the roof?

1:01:12 Speaker 1 From the roof. So—it actually happened that he was saved.

1:01:16 Speaker 2 He was saved.

1:01:16 Speaker 1 Over his head.

1:01:17 Speaker 2 Wow. There’s another story. There was a time when he came, um, to Manchester. I know that, uh, [unclear] with the Rebbe’s brother, with the camps of—

1:01:33 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:01:33 Speaker 2 Yisroel Aryeh Leib.

1:01:34 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:01:34 Speaker 2 So could you—could you first tell me the whole story? What’s the main point?

1:01:41 Speaker 1 Yes. There was—uh. Uh, I should also say now, the Rebbe wrote a telegram: “He has died in Liverpool,” and sent it to Ben Tzion Shemtov.

1:01:54 Speaker 2 “The brother in Liverpool has died?”

1:01:57 Speaker 1 Died. Next, uh, the funeral had to be arranged. I also, uh, first, first paid the fee.

1:02:03 Speaker 2 Yes. I really didn’t know that the Rebbe’s brother went there after the Holocaust.

1:02:07 Speaker 1 Yes, to Liverpool, yes. I didn’t know.

1:02:08 Speaker 2 You didn’t know?

1:02:09 Speaker 1 I didn’t know, yes.

1:02:10 Speaker 2 Ben Tzion Shemtov didn’t know?

1:02:11 Speaker 1 I didn’t know.

1:02:12 Speaker 2 Nobody knew?

1:02:13 Speaker 1 Because, because they were actually [unclear].

1:02:15 Speaker 2 No, first, what was he doing, [unclear] how did the idea arise that he was there?

1:02:19 Speaker 1 Yes, what, what do I mean I didn’t know? So I went there, I traveled. No, I... When, when, uh, they, they, they... traveled early, they were there early with the child.

1:02:30 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:02:30 Speaker 1 They traveled. So, so, the rabbi, the rabbi became involved. I think it was the rabbi, the rabbi. So, so, so, so he knew. He came, and... the rabbi said, “He’s known.” He asked the rabbi, “Come.” So he came to him. The father became alert. He spoke with him. Spoke with him for two hours.

1:02:59 Speaker 2 She called the rabbi, the father—

1:03:00 Speaker 1 No, he, he, he called.

1:03:03 Speaker 2 The rabbi. He was with the father, waking him up.

1:03:05 Speaker 1 Yes. So, so, so... he spoke with the rabbi. He spoke for two hours. He spoke. And, and, uh, and the rabbi said, “We’re going to the Rebbe’s house.” And, and, uh, then, then at the... they do... they performed the washing. So, so it was done. First one has to wash; they immerse in the mikveh. But you’re not allowed to wash first; you have to wash. The men wash first. They need nothing, nothing, nothing else on the head. That’s one thing. So, so... he washed the hand and the hand. The hand, he does it for you. There were three of us, three weeks. I was with Rabbi Schechter and—

1:03:59 Speaker 2 And Bentzi.

1:04:02 Speaker 1 Bentzi? Yes, no, no, no, Bentzi. They were washed.

1:04:09 Speaker 2 Manchester is closer to Liverpool than to London?

1:04:13 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. Yes, it’s... he was there. They gave me—

1:04:18 Speaker 2 No, but a telegram arrives here. Bentzi received a telegram here.

1:04:20 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, but. Yes, and, and he was... he was in Ireland and—

1:04:26 Speaker 2 He was where?

1:04:27 Speaker 1 In, in Dublin. Ireland. Ireland.

1:04:29 Speaker 2 Ireland, yes.

1:04:31 Speaker 1 So. But he came first, because he was there. They washed him immediately. There was the matter of washing, because they wash them. But three, three weeks in his clothes. For me, my part was washing the head. The head was washed like this. Washed. Afterward you can go and prepare a table.

1:04:51 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:04:52 Speaker 1 With the... I would immerse. Come, um, he woke up. So he did it. The rabbi did it. The Rebbe—they had a separate room for him. They gave him one. They gave him a clean room, where he lay.

1:05:04 Speaker 2 The Rebbe, this, uh, Jew.

1:05:06 Speaker 1 The rabbi did it, the Jewish man.

1:05:07 Speaker 2 The rabbi.

1:05:07 Speaker 1 The rabbi. The rabbi. So the Rebbe was his brother. So, as it were, a separate room for him. He lay there. Until, until. So he was also washed there, and the table was prepared there too. So, so... And Bentzi said that he saw that the left hand had not, had not been passed over—

1:05:41 Speaker 2 You have to check that.

1:05:42 Speaker 1 No. You’re not allowed to do the whole immersion again.

1:05:46 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 And Dubov said, “No.” He saw clearly. He didn’t do it. Afterward, on, on, on, on—the Rebbe spoke on the telephone.

1:05:57 Speaker 2 With Bentzi?

1:05:59 Speaker 1 Yes. He said, “What about the left hand?” The Rebbe. And, uh, Bentzi and the others said, “What do we do?”

1:06:08 Speaker 2 He asked that himself?

1:06:09 Speaker 1 Yes. So he sent... And, and afterward Bentzi said, “So it was done.” So he came to the Rebbe. He says, “Afterward, after greeting him, at the Rebbe’s small table.” The Rebbe asked about the hand again.

1:06:25 Speaker 2 Wow.

1:06:27 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe sent—

1:06:31 Speaker 2 Wow, this, uh, this chossid, who was [unclear].

1:06:38 Speaker 1 Afterward there was... they moved into their room. Afterward, so, so... he told me that he was coming... the Gurarys, they were coming, they would come to take him to Eretz Yisroel.

1:06:52 Speaker 2 Another Gurary.

1:06:53 Speaker 1 From, from, from the Mishnah. From, from, from Eretz Yisroel, Gurary.

1:06:58 Speaker 2 So they came to England?

1:06:59 Speaker 1 He came. He came.

1:07:01 Speaker 2 So they came.

1:07:02 Speaker 1 To take him to—

1:07:04 Speaker 2 Eretz Yisroel.

1:07:04 Speaker 1 Yes, so we traveled back. They also did that for ten of his people, like that, without him... because you, he himself was the one. Those—

1:07:13 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:07:14 Speaker 1 Right. He came with the [unclear] to welcome them. That’s his brother. He came to do that. But that’s how it was—I don’t know; we weren’t on the flight. He was in London, and they were at our house. They were invited to [unclear].

1:07:32 Speaker 2 At your house?

1:07:33 Speaker 1 Yes. It was connected with the shul. They were there.

1:07:35 Speaker 2 The shul was in your house?

1:07:36 Speaker 1 Yes. What? It provided the... yes, a room. The shul. They were... They say there was such a thing there in London. A small house, things like that. There was [unclear] there. The rabbi went there himself. They were there. Afterward they traveled for Tishrei from... from Paris, they traveled for Tishrei.

1:08:02 Speaker 2 That was [unclear] in London, huh?

1:08:05 Speaker 1 No, no. No, in London—

1:08:08 Speaker 2 That was then.

1:08:11 Speaker 1 Yes, they traveled.

1:08:13 Speaker 2 So then—

1:08:14 Speaker 1 They brought them from Paris. They were in Paris.

1:08:16 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:08:19 Speaker 1 They stayed two weeks, until Tisha B’Av.

1:08:21 Speaker 2 Until then, yes.

1:08:22 Speaker 1 Oh. Here it was... In London there was... I was in Manchester. There were two... We studied in Lubavitch. There were sichos. It goes by family names. They had children. Yaffe, Yaffe. Yaffe was the [unclear] for the sichos.

1:08:42 Speaker 2 Salinger Yaffe?

1:08:43 Speaker 1 Salinger Yaffe, yes. His father was... But he wasn’t [unclear]. That was earlier, before that.

1:08:52 Speaker 2 Was that in Manchester?

1:08:55 Speaker 1 I think so, in Manchester.

1:08:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:08:56 Speaker 1 Not far from... You could walk there in half an hour. It was held there. There were two Lubavitch shuls there. Yaffe had one shul, and Dubov had the other. They... all of this took place on the yeshiva grounds. So I studied with the rosh yeshiva’s son. I studied with him. I came to know him that way. Later he wasn’t well, but we visited him in the hospital. It was a big thing then, all of it. And he said, he said that it says, no, no—“With people, always at the [unclear].” That’s what it says. And then, afterward, the Frierdiker Rebbe was born to the Rebbe Rashab. That was again after one—

1:10:24 Speaker 2 Shvat.

1:10:25 Speaker 1 Yes. That’s what he said. And he said, now comes “bahem.” So now, for example.

1:10:35 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:10:37 Speaker 1 “Bahem,” “bahem” is forty-seven, right? “Bahem.”

1:10:44 Speaker 2 That’s the gematria.

1:10:44 Speaker 1 And another three makes forty.

1:10:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:47 Speaker 1 Yes. The Rebbe Rashab turned forty years old. Then came [unclear], after “bahem.” So again, after the Rebbe Rashab.

1:10:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:59 Speaker 1 And then he was born a year later, after the Rebbe Rashab. That’s... that’s [unclear], that’s—

1:11:09 Speaker 2 That means.

1:11:09 Speaker 1 That means. And he passed away.

1:11:11 Speaker 2 Who?

1:11:12 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:11:14 Speaker 2 Where were you on Yud Shvat, when the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away?

1:11:19 Speaker 1 We were in Paris then.

1:11:21 Speaker 2 What do you remember from that time?

1:11:22 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:11:23 Speaker 2 What do you remember from that time?

1:11:26 Speaker 1 From then? I still remember the yeshiva in Paris, but... At the time of the passing, we traveled. We traveled to England.

1:11:39 Speaker 2 But do you remember the meal when the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away?

1:11:45 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. I think he was there too. With the... with them... I remember the news came in, but we didn’t know. We only found out on Sunday.

1:11:59 Speaker 2 What did you see?

1:12:01 Speaker 1 What? That he had passed away?

1:12:03 Speaker 2 Yes, we took it [unclear].

1:12:05 Speaker 1 Ah, I don’t know. I think they were still there. My father was in England then. He was already in England. He was working somewhere, or he may have been in Ireland at the time, and he was there visiting. They were in a sort of hotel. Each family had a room. But when you went upstairs, there was a kitchen in the middle, on the third floor. And my mother was cooking, just then, as he says. Each family had its own... By then nobody else was cooking there. She had a whole room. But it was by the courtyard, by the stairs where you went up. So my mother said to herself, “Mother, they’re leaving.”

1:13:11 Speaker 2 So when she heard it—

1:13:14 Speaker 1 My mother said, “The Rebbe has passed away.”

1:13:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:13:17 Speaker 1 My mother was standing there. When she heard that he had gone, she fainted.

1:13:23 Speaker 2 She fainted.

1:13:24 Speaker 1 It was sheer luck that someone was right there. The fainting passed. She was about to fall and hit her head—she fainted. But she was standing there with [unclear].

1:13:33 Speaker 2 Had your mother ever seen the Frierdiker Rebbe?

1:13:37 Speaker 1 The Frierdiker Rebbe? Ah, it could be, yes. In Russia, the second... No, I can’t say. I don’t know.

1:13:47 Speaker 2 Could it be that she had never seen the Frierdiker Rebbe? And when she heard it—

1:13:51 Speaker 1 No, she hadn’t seen him.

1:13:52 Speaker 2 She fainted.

1:13:53 Speaker 1 Yes, but no. No, she hadn’t seen him... had seen him.

1:13:59 Speaker 2 What did you hear then, in that year when the Rebbe became the Rebbe?

1:14:05 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:14:05 Speaker 2 What do you remember? What were people saying about the Rebbe—what would happen? Do you remember anything they were saying then?

1:14:17 Speaker 1 When you go, there’s the Rebbe—what?

1:14:21 Speaker 2 We were in Paris. We didn’t know exactly what was happening.

1:14:23 Speaker 1 No, I mean, what about [unclear]? Going to the Rebbe—to the Rebbe, what?

1:14:31 Speaker 2 Don’t you remember chassidim talking about it?

1:14:32 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:14:33 Speaker 2 Don’t you remember chassidim talking about what would happen?

1:14:37 Speaker 1 No, I didn’t hear that. I heard that he became the Rebbe.

1:14:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Wait, let’s go back to Manchester. You studied there with Itche Dubov, and there were all the boys. What was the relationship between the Lubavitcher boys and the other boys? Was it a Chassidic yeshiva? Was it—

1:14:57 Speaker 1 No, it wasn’t even a yeshiva.

1:14:58 Speaker 2 An ordinary yeshiva?

1:15:00 Speaker 1 No, they were all... all the young men... It wasn’t really something like that. The children studying there had half a day of religious studies, and they went to the community. So—

1:15:10 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:15:11 Speaker 1 But that was... it wasn’t like that there. And not to mention... What was going on between my mother and [unclear]? She said it had happened. She was there. They were together. They forgot. They said, “Next week.” We said, “Grandma can’t come.” We said we were already going another time. I took my father. And we had already thought: if they come, aren’t we going? They don’t have a father. But she was there that year. We said, “We’re going to the Rebbe.” To travel. Avraham received it as a gift. But a letter was written asking for it. So, please, to travel together to the Rebbe. I mean, that’s how it was with her. She was older than Avraham, a little older than Avraham. So you could say she was such-and-such an age. So really, not bad. What do I know? I was in [unclear]. But afterward it was three weeks. Each time I was there for three weeks, three weeks in the winter. But it was always in London, at the house. Yes, that was there later. They would come here for years, return after three weeks to the shul to do it. I traveled and came back. Avraham didn’t travel. He didn’t come, not to the shul... to the shul. But they traveled in their hearts. Each time they stayed in New York. But afterward, when a letter came from the Rebbe, in the end, no. I wasn’t to travel. So you weren’t to travel. That was how it was until Manchester. Then the Rebbe wrote to my father. I didn’t know about it, but afterward, when it arrived... In Manchester there had been a letter before everything—

1:17:33 Speaker 1 To me. So when I was arranging papers to travel, to go to the consulate—that was it exactly. A year later, a year later, yes, I received a letter to do it. To go to the Canadian consulate. Canadian. American and Canadian. What? To arrange it. To travel to Montreal, in Canada, to arrange papers. So first they said to travel to Canada, then to come to New York, be at the table, and afterward travel to Montreal, to Canada. Because that was what... Then the Rebbe wrote—what? But... but... it was done. But I couldn’t travel first. I could arrange it there. I would come to New York and go there, to the consulate. But it was possible to go first, or later, more quickly. But Grandma was at the shul. They said, “Shavuos.” So I’m traveling to the Rebbe. Certain people traveled at particular times, you understand. They gave their names—what they knew, what they said. Yes, they gave their names, and I wrote mine there. They gave them, and then they brought that book, showing how things were. Later, when we came, we came through the shul in New York. They brought it. I meant to pass my name to someone else, and the name from Shavuos. I think there were two notes. So I took the notes first. Then I took one note. He said, he said, yes, that’s what we wrote. To write the name of the... So that we would have the blessing. Here we have to kiss... the people. Who gives a blessing?

1:20:40 Speaker 1 The man kisses first. That was me. She says Tanya. What? What? What kind of good blessing do they give, you understand? And she goes. She goes. They let her go. That was all we had agreed on. It happened four or six months later.

1:21:05 Speaker 3 So, yes?

1:21:05 Speaker 1 I think I said it, and then I said that. She answered me about it.

1:21:09 Speaker 3 You said she wrote it down?

1:21:13 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:21:13 Speaker 3 Did you send the letter?

1:21:14 Speaker 1 Yes. Send a letter. Yes, just one. Separately.

1:21:17 Speaker 3 Oh, separately?

1:21:18 Speaker 1 I sent it. Yes, separately. Yes, a letter.

1:21:19 Speaker 3 And they—

1:21:20 Speaker 1 And did they know the address? I didn’t. I sent it; yes, I saw it.

1:21:24 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:21:25 Speaker 1 That was no longer—

1:21:26 Speaker 3 What happened? Chanatze. They said that was the new development. But what happened when you arrived? You traveled by ship, didn’t you?

1:21:33 Speaker 1 By ship, yes.

1:21:34 Speaker 3 And what happened when you arrived in New York? When was that?

1:21:40 Speaker 1 I traveled to Canada. I got here five days before Yom Kippur.

1:21:45 Speaker 3 What year was that?

1:21:47 Speaker 1 That was, yes, that was the beginning of the seventies… no, 5740.

1:21:49 Speaker 3 That’s seventeen. You arrived in New York. Did someone meet you at the ship?

1:21:57 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said—ah, the Rebbe—no. The Rebbe said, “My brother was already there. My brother was already there.”

1:22:07 Speaker 3 Moshe. Was he younger than you?

1:22:09 Speaker 1 Moshe is older than me.

1:22:10 Speaker 3 Older.

1:22:10 Speaker 1 Moshe traveled before you.

1:22:12 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:22:12 Speaker 1 Moshe was there, and he said to Moshe, “You know, are you going to travel?”

1:22:19 Speaker 3 Did the Rebbe ask him to come?

1:22:21 Speaker 1 And he, yes, he knew. And they carried out an inspection. They carried out an inspection.

1:22:30 Speaker 3 An interview in person.

1:22:32 Speaker 1 There.

1:22:32 Speaker 3 An inspection, the—

1:22:33 Speaker 1 Yes, an inspection. With the ship. They had ten weeks here.

1:22:40 Speaker 3 Was that a friend from England?

1:22:42 Speaker 1 Yes. A friend like that. It was another, another ten weeks they waited. We could—

1:22:49 Speaker 3 They brought them in seventy—seventy.

1:22:51 Speaker 1 Yes. He could— They were surprised, but with the blank papers, they let them in.

1:22:59 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:22:59 Speaker 1 So I had to—I had to go to another place. But they let us. They didn’t succeed. We were traveling—

1:23:07 Speaker 3 So you didn’t have the right papers?

1:23:10 Speaker 1 I had the right papers. I did. But, but they—

1:23:17 Speaker 3 When was the first time you saw the Rebbe?

1:23:19 Speaker 1 That was the first time.

1:23:22 Speaker 3 Yes, but when? Was it at Minchah? What happened?

1:23:27 Speaker 1 Oh, no, the Rebbe. We were in the office. We saw him in the office. We didn’t speak; we saw him. After Yom Kippur, after Sukkos. I remember it was after Sukkos.

1:23:43 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. And did you also travel to Montreal?

1:23:47 Speaker 1 We could travel to Montreal. I said, “We have tickets.” And that was—but we stayed. We stayed at 770 in New York. We were going to Montreal. Then they gave us the yeshivah in Montreal. That was arranged then. Yes, from the yeshivah of— But he said, “Travel with Kreml.”

1:24:10 Speaker 3 Who said that?

1:24:11 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said it.

1:24:12 Speaker 3 In what context?

1:24:13 Speaker 1 He said it? Yes, he said it. As I said, the Chabad rabbi from Copenhagen.

1:24:17 Speaker 3 So Kreml—

1:24:18 Speaker 1 Kreml. I traveled with Kreml to Canada.

1:24:20 Speaker 3 He was going to travel to—

1:24:20 Speaker 1 Montreal? We were walking down the street. We were walking, getting ready to travel. We stood there, and I was going to send a letter.

1:25:25 Speaker 3 Which street?

1:25:26 Speaker 1 In Montreal. We were going to the post office. I went up and asked, “Are you already Berger-kop[?]?” I said, “Yes.” Yes, the man asked, “Do you wear a zaydl[?]?” I said, “I’ll know later.” That was in Greenwald. I didn’t know. We couldn’t have known.

1:25:46 Speaker 3 Was he a mashpia?

1:25:47 Speaker 1 Yes. He walked around the yeshivah all night.

1:25:50 Speaker 3 And you—could they see you?

1:25:53 Speaker 1 Yes, they saw me.

1:25:56 Speaker 3 So Greenwald—was there once a man by that name in the yeshivah?

1:26:01 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. He was a mashpia in the yeshivah.

1:26:04 Speaker 3 Did he study under the elder one?

1:26:06 Speaker 1 He didn’t study there, but he studied together with him.

1:26:12 Speaker 3 And how often did you come from Montreal to see the Rebbe?

1:26:15 Speaker 1 What? When? Yes, when we traveled. On Yom Tov—Yom Kippur, Shavuos, Pesach.

1:26:22 Speaker 3 But did you study at 770?

1:26:24 Speaker 1 No. Never. Not even for two weeks. I never managed to.

1:26:30 Speaker 3 So every time you traveled, were you—were you at a wedding with him, a Melaveh Malkah?

1:26:34 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:26:35 Speaker 3 At a Melaveh Malkah—were you ever at a wedding?

1:26:37 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:26:41 Speaker 3 So, at that time. You came for Yom Kippur, for the big farbrengen. What was it like there with the Rebbe in those years?

1:26:50 Speaker 1 With the Rebbe?

1:26:51 Speaker 3 I’m asking, was there a small hall then?

1:26:56 Speaker 1 No. It was always—even before I was born, it was like that. They brought me from there into the shul.

1:27:07 Speaker 3 Into the small hall?

1:27:09 Speaker 1 Yes, then. Back then they called it “the huge hall.” I was there for twenty weeks. When they served food, I was on Bedford. I went to Bedford to eat.

1:27:21 Speaker 3 As you remember it, the Rebbe’s farbrengens—was that already after twenty weeks?

1:27:24 Speaker 1 No.

1:27:26 Speaker 3 In the summer?

1:27:27 Speaker 1 Yes, well, yes, some kind of farbrengen.

1:27:30 Speaker 3 Was it completely different back then?

1:27:31 Speaker 1 No, the same.

1:27:33 Speaker 3 The same Rebbe?

1:27:34 Speaker 1 Yes. What?

1:27:36 Speaker 3 Was it clear to the crowd—did people feel that the Rebbe knew the crowd somewhat? Were there times in those years when the Rebbe said something directly to you?

1:27:52 Speaker 1 Yes, well, that was—I think it was in the first year. I mean, that year, around Rosh Hashanah. Rosh Hashanah was during the trip. There was a question about shivah, and there was no answer there. The question was, “But that relates to another question,” as far as I know. But she heard it then. So he said, “More eyes on the brother-in-law.” More eyes. It’s written in the Talmud too.

1:28:31 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:28:33 Speaker 1 A question like that. I don’t know what happened with the question, with that man. Then he said, “The Rebbe said to himself, ‘I wanted, I wanted to ask my brother-in-law.’”

1:28:49 Speaker 3 Whom?

1:28:50 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:28:51 Speaker 3 Whom?

1:28:51 Speaker 1 Me. He asked my brother-in-law; that’s [unclear]. So she said, “Then he can come in.” She said, “If he speaks with his brother-in-law, he isn’t the Rebbe.” That’s been forgotten.

1:29:06 Speaker 3 Uh-huh. But there was something special about you, chen with horses[?]: you came, and you knew and had heard about the Rebbe. But you came on your own. What did he ask of you—

1:29:24 Speaker 1 About what?

1:29:24 Speaker 3 How you looked at the Rebbe, and your approach to the whole thing.

1:29:28 Speaker 1 He’s a Rebbe. What? What’s the question? What’s the question?

1:29:35 Speaker 3 What’s my question?

1:29:37 Speaker 1 What’s the question?

1:29:38 Speaker 3 There were people whose situations—and that’s when one holds by the matter of [unclear].

1:29:45 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:29:46 Speaker 3 When one holds by it, one sees other things that people tell the Rebbe. They become part of the other connection.

1:29:51 Speaker 1 No, we have nothing more at all.

1:29:53 Speaker 3 Was everything the same?

1:29:59 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:29:59 Speaker 3 Okay. And what happened?

1:30:03 Speaker 1 And they said, “The shluchim were invited to Manchester. They dreamed—they’re dreaming. They saw me speaking with the Rebbe.”

1:30:17 Speaker 3 So what?

1:30:17 Speaker 1 I dreamed, I dreamed.

1:30:18 Speaker 3 Go on.

1:30:18 Speaker 1 That I was speaking with the Rebbe.

1:30:20 Speaker 3 You had a dream?

1:30:21 Speaker 1 Yes, I dreamed. I mean, I know—I dreamed it; I saw it.

1:30:29 Speaker 3 That was when you were in Manchester.

1:30:32 Speaker 1 Manchester? No, that was—

1:30:33 Speaker 3 Here the Rebbe dreamed.

1:30:34 Speaker 1 Dreamed, yes. But he saw it; it was a dream nonetheless.

1:30:38 Speaker 3 You saw the Rebbe? Go on, what do you mean? What are you trying to tell me, then?

1:30:42 Speaker 1 No, these are good things. So what?

1:30:46 Speaker 3 Mm. So what happened? What was it like in Montreal? Was Montreal a matter of just one week?

1:30:52 Speaker 1 No, then the seven weeks began.

1:30:56 Speaker 3 But who were you with during the week? Were they Russian weeks, or was it—?

1:31:03 Speaker 1 There were several—there were several of them. I asked them too, “Were there children?” They were still there. The children—we were there in the shul. That was also a day. Of course, afterward something came from Bedford. We were—that was on Shabbos. There were—after two years we began traveling to Montreal.

1:31:34 Speaker 3 I have a question about when you were a bochur. You were among the Rebbe’s students then.

1:31:42 Speaker 1 Yes, I suppose I was—yes, I was among the students.

1:31:46 Speaker 3 What can you tell us about those days?

1:31:57 Speaker 1 I know—I don’t know, what? What can I say? [unclear] Rebbe. She speaks, and the fact remains. She speaks about what happened, and where she was with the Rebbe—the maror, that’s what happened. I knew about the maror, so I put down a piece of maror, not ground up.

1:32:35 Speaker 3 A small piece.

1:32:36 Speaker 1 But the cheese[?], what she was, the brothers—she was there. She was there during the day, what? Or the Skislov[?], I know that. The Rebbe—then they came to the Rebbe. She was there. She asked that—

1:32:57 Speaker 3 Did they hold a farbrengen at her place?

1:33:00 Speaker 1 Yes, whatever it was. Yes, those sorts of things, at the stalag[?]. She was at the stalag[?], wherever she was. Separately.

1:33:07 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:33:09 Speaker 1 I—I know; I can’t say more. That’s what we did. Then we waited, and then the Rebbe—the Rebbe was there, like that. Not the Rebbe, but around him. That’s how it had to go around.

1:33:26 Speaker 3 She waited for—

1:33:27 Speaker 1 Like that, like that, two—two times around.

1:33:31 Speaker 3 Two times around, around, yes.

1:33:32 Speaker 1 It was during the day. I know it was—during the day, it was. We did that for four weeks too. I know that exactly. Then we were standing—we were standing next to—

1:33:45 Speaker 3 One of them was new.

1:33:47 Speaker 1 Yes, it was—we were standing by the door, and I couldn’t—the Rebbe was sitting. Those were actually friends of mine. The Rebbe was sitting by the—by the door. There was a little cabinet there.

1:34:04 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:34:05 Speaker 1 But we stood there. We were standing—we didn’t go in; we stood there. But the Rebbe—we stood there. It was during the day. Already by [unclear], they were standing there. The Rebbe turned around, and afterward I looked for him separately, after one—

1:34:24 Speaker 3 By the guard?

1:34:25 Speaker 1 By the gua—I looked for him separately. So, “L’chaim.” That I can’t—

1:34:37 Speaker 3 Apparently there wasn’t—the document for the guards that there was. Yes.

1:34:43 Speaker 1 I think—when, when was this? It was when the Rebbe went to daven. That’s how it was. We were holding the lulav, the esrog with the lulav. We held it, and this was before davening. He needed it. And it was always by the door, here by the door. They would go, and then—

1:35:23 Speaker 3 Inside again?

1:35:24 Speaker 1 Yes, the Rebbe—

1:35:26 Speaker 3 Again after eight?

1:35:27 Speaker 1 Yes, because—because the Rebbe was already there. We went in, went back in, and the Rebbe wouldn’t go.

1:35:40 Speaker 3 Again after eight? Or in the hall?

1:35:43 Speaker 1 No, in the hall. He relied on him.

1:35:45 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:35:46 Speaker 1 We were going—the Rebbe waited for the door to be closed, and then opened the door. Then, the next day—that was—one of the guards, what? He opened the door and the Rebbe didn’t come out. The Rebbe was startled. But the next day I thought about it: how could I have done such a thing? What helped me that night was seeing that the Rebbe had been startled. I—

1:36:28 Speaker 3 Ah, you thought, so what—

1:36:30 Speaker 1 What I didn’t do that night.

1:36:31 Speaker 3 That you didn’t do it—

1:36:32 Speaker 1 The Rebbe can be startled too?

1:36:33 Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

1:36:33 Speaker 1 It was at night, but I wanted to go to the Rebbe, and he was startled.

1:36:39 Speaker 3 That’s already the second thing you’ve said that really made such an impression. Mm-hmm. What can you tell us about the unusual things that happened while you were on guard duty? What can—

1:36:49 Speaker 1 You’re not allowed to tell those things.

1:36:51 Speaker 3 But what can you tell us about it? About that?

1:36:54 Speaker 1 Unusual things. Unusual things.

1:36:56 Speaker 3 I understand, not everything. But perhaps one or two things you can share.

1:37:04 Speaker 1 Yes, the Rebbe said—the Rebbe—they asked them. He asked, “Can I—at farbrengens—can I ask about chazzanus at farbrengens?” He asked at the farbrengens.

1:37:15 Speaker 3 He asked you?

1:37:16 Speaker 1 Yes, about those things.

1:37:17 Speaker 3 Do you know about chazzanus?

1:37:18 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:37:19 Speaker 3 From the farbrengen?

1:37:20 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. The Rebbe said, “I... yesterday I was in... I came to Montreal. I heard chazzanus in—in—in another—”

1:37:32 Speaker 3 Shul.

1:37:32 Speaker 1 “In the shul.” There were two shuls there. We davened in one shul; it was a Litvish shul, but there was... someone standing guard. But he said, I think, a year earlier, though the Rebbe had then instructed us to forget it. They were... guarding... [unclear], and there was a second shul too. There were... people—

1:37:56 Speaker 3 So that means the Rebbe... I didn’t understand that. The Rebbe asks, “Have you heard anything—do you know anything about chazzanus?” Did you say, “What?” or did you say, “Yes”?

1:38:05 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:38:06 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe doesn’t call the chazzan anymore. What else? Was there another thing? Another thing you can tell us?

1:38:22 Speaker 1 No, that’s—

1:38:27 Speaker 3 You say you came from Montreal. Did you ever take matzos?

1:38:32 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:38:32 Speaker 3 And was the Rebbe involved in that?

1:38:38 Speaker 1 What? Yes, I know... I know... But... but several people asked for matzos for... so—

1:38:51 Speaker 3 In Montreal?

1:38:52 Speaker 1 Yes. They asked, “Will the papers arrive before then?” The... here... we had papers, specifically papers to travel—to travel to Montreal, from the government. He knows... he... not everyone was admitted.

1:39:16 Speaker 3 Mm. Ah, there were people who couldn’t travel?

1:39:19 Speaker 1 No, no, I couldn’t travel, but—

1:39:21 Speaker 3 Ah.

1:39:22 Speaker 1 My papers weren’t—but I could travel from Canada. But I wanted to be with the Rebbe... with, with—

1:39:31 Speaker 3 Were you a bochur here?

1:39:34 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, in yeshiva.

1:39:35 Speaker 3 Ah, okay.

1:39:36 Speaker 1 But I always had to arrange papers, all the time. So, so... Magen David Adom. The Rebbe... a letter came from Magen David Adom, and the Rebbe added something in writing... There was a letter from the Rebbe... from Magen David Adom... Everyone received the letter. On mine it said what I wanted; on Zavyad’s it said... that I should receive what... what I wanted... what I wanted to receive.

1:40:13 Speaker 3 So, to receive what you wanted?

1:40:14 Speaker 1 What I wanted. An instruction. No, but right after that, when we came—

1:40:20 Speaker 3 Did you write to the Rebbe about this?

1:40:24 Speaker 1 No, no, no. I only thought it in my head.

1:40:26 Speaker 3 You thought it in your head.

1:40:27 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:40:27 Speaker 3 You mean that—

1:40:28 Speaker 1 So he added something in writing, and it was exactly then that I was troubled about the papers. Because when I complained about it, they were already preparing another letter. What I was troubled about—

1:40:37 Speaker 3 That was later, after that [unclear].

1:40:40 Speaker 1 Yes, here I asked for more matzos for the Jews. And the Rebbe said, “Nu, when you’re troubled about the papers, it’s hard to go, too.” The Rebbe said that.

1:40:48 Speaker 3 And you hadn’t told the Rebbe anything about this whole story?

1:40:51 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:40:54 Speaker 3 Ah. And the Rebbe gave to the others?

1:40:56 Speaker 1 Yes, they received matzah.

1:41:00 Speaker 3 And what were you thinking—about which matzos belonged to the Rebbe?

1:41:06 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, because I thought the Rebbe was saying, “Make a decision.” That’s what I thought the Rebbe had said. That was then—

1:41:11 Speaker 3 So it was only in your head?

1:41:12 Speaker 1 In my head, yes. The Rebbe, yes.

1:41:14 Speaker 3 The Rebbe immediately—

1:41:14 Speaker 1 So that was then—

1:41:15 Speaker 3 Did the Rebbe say it immediately after Shabbos, or was it left “on the finger”?

1:41:17 Speaker 1 He left it “on the finger.” That’s what I thought the Rebbe had said. It could be—what can I say?

1:41:23 Speaker 3 Then there was something else. I saw something like that when I went for dollars. The Rebbe once gave to a poor buyer, it seems. Several dollars to several wealthy people, straight “on the finger.” The Rebbe said, “That’s not how he does it.” He has since passed away. Yes.

1:41:42 Speaker 1 And later he gave lekach. The Rebbe gave lekach. Then the Rebbe said, “Another one, for your mother.” The Rebbe—for my mother—something like that.

1:41:58 Speaker 3 What? What?

1:41:59 Speaker 1 I asked for lekach, yes? Lekach. I had only asked for lekach for my father, to send to London. I was in London then. I asked for my father. Then, for my mother. The Rebbe said, “That’s two pieces of lekach, one piece of lekach.”

1:42:13 Speaker 3 One—two pieces of lekach for your father. Is that right?

1:42:16 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said so, yes.

1:42:19 Speaker 3 That’s two pieces of lekach. Ah. He wanted one; that stayed in Montreal. Was that a wedding?

1:42:27 Speaker 1 In Mont—in Montreal?

1:42:31 Speaker 3 Was that a wedding?

1:42:32 Speaker 1 Yes, in Mont—in Montreal. Ah, in Montreal, yes, yes, yes. Something like that.

1:42:37 Speaker 3 What happened? Yes, there was a shidduch.

1:42:38 Speaker 1 Where?

1:42:40 Speaker 3 A shidduch, a Chassidic shidduch, yes?

1:42:41 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:42:42 Speaker 3 Did something happen? Was the Rebbe—did they ask the Rebbe about the shidduch?

1:42:47 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes.

1:42:50 Speaker 3 Where was the wedding?

1:42:51 Speaker 1 In Montreal.

1:42:56 Speaker 3 And someone—the Rebbe—someone was afterward in [unclear] in New York?

1:43:02 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, the Rebbe was [unclear]. But he said to hold the chuppah here.

1:43:08 Speaker 3 So they asked the Rebbe?

1:43:09 Speaker 1 Yes. The Rebbe said it wasn’t possible.

1:43:11 Speaker 3 So they held the chuppah in New York and traveled to Montreal for the wedding?

1:43:14 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:43:15 Speaker 3 They arranged it that way?

1:43:16 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:43:16 Speaker 3 What did the Rebbe say?

1:43:17 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said, “That won’t work, that...”

1:43:23 Speaker 3 Ah. And he asked the Rebbe—he asked the Rebbe what to do about the wedding?

1:43:33 Speaker 1 Yes, and I wanted—I wanted there to be a shidduch. But could I make a shidduch? The Rebbe said, “After all, we are good students.”

1:43:44 Speaker 3 What? Students of what?

1:43:46 Speaker 1 I studied with the other student. I had started teaching children.

1:43:53 Speaker 3 So you were sent as a melamed then?

1:43:55 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:43:55 Speaker 3 Ah, [unclear]?

1:43:57 Speaker 1 Yes, in those years.

1:43:59 Speaker 3 The Rebbe said it would be fitting for a good pidyon, that it should really be so. And did the parents come right after the wedding?

1:44:08 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes.

1:44:09 Speaker 3 And did everyone have yechidus then?

1:44:11 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes.

1:44:12 Speaker 3 What did the Rebbe say to the parents?

1:44:14 Speaker 1 I don’t know. They came—and my father went about his affairs, and I don’t know. Everyone went in for yechidus.

1:44:24 Speaker 3 But did the Rebbe say anything to your father about you, about the wedding and after the wedding?

1:44:30 Speaker 1 I don’t know that. What they spoke about—

1:44:33 Speaker 3 Mostly about Kreml. Mostly about Kreml, the Rebbe said. The Rebbe said it to your father.

1:44:42 Speaker 1 Could be. I don’t know that. I really don’t know.

1:44:47 Speaker 3 So you stayed in Montreal?

1:44:49 Speaker 1 Yes, I did.

1:44:51 Speaker 3 In what capacity?

1:44:54 Speaker 1 His yeshiva was there.

1:44:55 Speaker 3 The Rebbe said your father should stay in Montreal?

1:44:57 Speaker 1 Not my father, no, no. I stayed in Montreal.

1:45:01 Speaker 3 Ah, okay.

1:45:04 Speaker 1 It was—how can I put it? We farbrenged over it for years. It was a long time. Before the announcement: “May his name be remembered for a good life, and may it be established that he be remembered for a good life.” So we farbrenged over that. The Rebbe—

1:45:24 Speaker 3 For you?

1:45:26 Speaker 1 For everyone. He said, “In London there are two Lubavitchers. They have two fathers.” I—I farbrenged. They farbrenged in the early years, for several years. From when the Rebbe announced, “May his name be remembered for a good life, and may it be established that he be remembered for a good life.” So it went on for several years.

1:45:54 Speaker 3 Was that said about you or your brother? Or both of you?

1:45:59 Speaker 1 Yes, but the shamashim said it—all the Gorkovitches said it.

1:46:02 Speaker 3 Ah, all the Gurkovitches. When he was in Montreal, he came to talk about everyday matters, about buying a house or an apartment.

1:46:15 Speaker 1 Yes, he had bought a house, but he didn’t sleep there.

1:46:21 Speaker 3 What?

1:46:22 Speaker 1 He wanted to buy himself a house, so... He didn’t sleep there every day. He didn’t sleep in that house.

1:46:27 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:46:28 Speaker 1 But afterward, he went ahead and bought one. The house he did buy—when he wanted to buy it, the Rebbe told him, “Yes, now you should buy the house I’m telling you about.” And what happened? To close on a house, you have to put up more money through the bank; you have to borrow money from the bank.

1:46:51 Speaker 3 A mortgage?

1:46:52 Speaker 1 A mortgage, yes. Here, when people buy a house, they take out a mortgage. When they buy a house—

1:47:01 Speaker 3 Put down—

1:47:01 Speaker 1 Hold it. Hold it. Yes, for half a year. So then there was the matter of the bank. When he got the mortgage, there was something with the bank that he didn’t understand. He didn’t understand why the Rebbe had told him to wait with the house.

1:47:19 Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

1:47:19 Speaker 1 That’s true. The Rebbe really guided each person at every step.

1:47:24 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:47:25 Speaker 1 So afterward you came to New York; you came with the family. How are you? How are you? For Yom Tov? Yes, Yom Tov. So—

1:47:38 Speaker 3 And did you have yechidus?

1:47:41 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yechidus. Yes, we came.

1:47:46 Speaker 3 What can you tell us about the yechidus concerning, uh, Simcha and the family?

1:47:54 Speaker 1 The yechidus? What—

1:47:54 Speaker 3 [unclear]

1:47:57 Speaker 1 Oh, what—what happened? Mendel was there, my brother, our brother, Mendel. I was three years old. So, uh, maybe something. In those days, the Rebbe would actually cut the hair around the head. They would leave the peyos for an upsherenish; they would grow the peyos.

1:48:27 Speaker 3 The Rebbe himself would cut the hair.

1:48:28 Speaker 1 Yes, at the Rebbe’s house. But with Mendel—I was there; I was just over three. There were little scissors here in the pocket. And we looked for them. But we asked him—

1:48:47 Speaker 3 Yes, it was necessary; he hadn’t stopped then.

1:48:49 Speaker 1 Yes, he had stopped, but I didn’t know that.

1:48:51 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:48:52 Speaker 1 But we looked for them, and the Rebbe asked... I had written something; something was written down. But the little scissors were in the pocket. The Rebbe said, “[unclear] he’s three years old, for an upsherenish.” The Rebbe, of course, knew where he had stopped.

1:49:19 Speaker 3 The Rebbe asked?

1:49:20 Speaker 1 Yes, he said, “I see—”

1:49:21 Speaker 3 The Rebbe said.

1:49:22 Speaker 1 But what happened then? The Rebbe tapped his hand, and he was standing before the Rebbe with the scissors. But the Rebbe knew the scissors were here. The Rebbe tapped his hand to take the scissors. Yes, the scissors were there. The Rebbe did cut some hair. But those scissors—he still had his hair. The Rebbe didn’t cut it; he still had it.

1:49:51 Speaker 3 His hair. And the Rebbe said there was no need to, uh, cut his hair—

1:49:57 Speaker 1 Not to cut his hair, no.

1:49:58 Speaker 3 But the Rebbe had already stopped.

1:50:00 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:50:00 Speaker 3 But it happened a few times afterward too, though they didn’t.

1:50:04 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:50:04 Speaker 3 Uh-huh. What happened with the family in yechidus? Did the Rebbe ever give the family a blessing?

1:50:12 Speaker 1 Yes, the Rebbe said, “May you have nachas from the children.” That’s what the Rebbe said. The blessing was nachas from the children.

1:50:20 Speaker 3 That was during the yechidus? “May you have nachas from the children”?

1:50:25 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. Boruch Hashem, every one of his children brings him nachas.

1:50:28 Speaker 3 What exactly were the Rebbe’s words?

1:50:31 Speaker 1 Yes, uh, yes, those were the words.

1:50:34 Speaker 3 What were they?

1:50:34 Speaker 1 That he should have nachas from the children. It was said explicitly: that he should have nachas from the children. That—

1:50:40 Speaker 3 And all these years have revolved around—

1:50:42 Speaker 1 Around nachas from the children. That’s—

1:50:44 Speaker 3 The blessing of nachas from the children.

1:50:45 Speaker 1 Nachas from the children is the greatest thing.

1:50:46 Speaker 3 That Yiddishkeit is what matters.

1:50:50 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:50:50 Speaker 3 Do you have nachas from the children? I mean, from the [unclear].

1:50:58 Speaker 1 N-n-nachas, yes? Great-grandchildren, chassidim, Temimim. The great-grandchildren—nachas.

1:51:07 Speaker 3 That’s a source of pride.

1:51:08 Speaker 1 It’s a source of pride.

1:51:09 Speaker 3 Great-grandchildren, chassidim, Temimim.

1:51:10 Speaker 1 Temimim.

1:51:11 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Were you here when the Rebbe was at Tashlich?

1:51:18 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:51:18 Speaker 3 At Tashlich?

1:51:22 Speaker 1 I don’t know about that. No, the first year, it—

1:51:29 Speaker 3 When the Rebbe jumped over the gate.

1:51:33 Speaker 1 Yes, the gate—that happened, yes.

1:51:35 Speaker 3 What happened there?

1:51:37 Speaker 1 Yes, it, yes, yes—

1:51:41 Speaker 3 Can you tell me? What happened?

1:51:45 Speaker 1 Yes, here’s what happened. The Rebbe came out. The door was closed. But there was a gate with two doors. The Rebbe came to the gate, and it was closed. But the Rebbe could—

1:52:14 Speaker 3 But farther along the path was the gate, and then there was the—

1:52:20 Speaker 1 It was easier to jump over here. Because—

1:52:23 Speaker 3 Because what?

1:52:25 Speaker 1 Because the gate was higher.

1:52:27 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:52:27 Speaker 1 And it—and it—

1:52:28 Speaker 3 Wasn’t so thick.

1:52:29 Speaker 1 Not thick. So all the people walking beside the—beside the—

1:52:36 Speaker 3 Gate.

1:52:36 Speaker 1 The gate. The Rebbe walked—no, the Rebbe walked here. And he—

1:52:41 Speaker 3 The Rebbe walked by the entrance.

1:52:42 Speaker 1 By the entrance, yes. And he—

1:52:44 Speaker 3 Beside the [unclear].

1:52:45 Speaker 1 Yes, and he came back to cross.

1:52:53 Speaker 3 Did you follow the Rebbe? Did you actually jump over?

1:52:57 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no.

1:52:59 Speaker 3 No?

1:52:59 Speaker 1 No, no, no. We followed the Rebbe, yes.

1:53:03 Speaker 3 You followed the Rebbe?

1:53:04 Speaker 1 But we weren’t by the gate. We didn’t go through the gate.

1:53:08 Speaker 3 Everyone went beside the gate. The Rebbe went by the entrance.

1:53:11 Speaker 1 The Rebbe went to the gate, yes. And what—he couldn’t... [unclear] were here.

1:53:18 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:53:20 Speaker 1 He came back up.

1:53:22 Speaker 3 And it was raining then, right?

1:53:24 Speaker 1 Yes, later. It rained later, later.

1:53:27 Speaker 3 It wasn’t raining on Shemini Atzeres?

1:53:28 Speaker 1 Yes. Right, it wasn’t raining on Shemini Atzeres. Only later, when we came back, it started to rain a little, but we went inside.

1:53:45 Speaker 3 What happened when you came back?

1:53:48 Speaker 1 We were there, and the Rebbe said l’chaim. The Rebbe said—I remember there was someone who was worried because it was cold. And the Rebbe said l’chaim. The Rebbe said, “What’s this? The rain doesn’t matter. What’s a little rain? Say l’chaim now.” But we didn’t have to go and say l’chaim. There was no need for that. But I think I had my cup—I—

1:54:26 Speaker 3 Everyone was holding their—

1:54:28 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:54:28 Speaker 3 Everyone was holding their cups.

1:54:30 Speaker 1 Yes, but I had my own cup. And he said l’chaim. The Rebbe said, “Why do you need to?” The Rebbe said, “Forget about it. L’chaim v’livrachah.” But no, no—I didn’t refuse to say l’chaim. We could drink, so we drank right away. But the Rebbe said, “Say l’chaim v’livrachah.” And he would say, “Go along with the singing.” Wait a moment—he said to say l’chaim twice. I didn’t hear the Rebbe say it, so the Rebbe said l’chaim again. I had already said l’chaim once. But twice he said, “Go along with the singing.”

1:55:18 Speaker 3 I don’t understand. So you said l’chaim, but—

1:55:21 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said it—I didn’t hear the Rebbe say it.

1:55:24 Speaker 3 He kept saying l’chaim?

1:55:25 Speaker 1 I didn’t know he was saying l’chaim.

1:55:27 Speaker 3 A second time?

1:55:28 Speaker 1 No, most of the time. The Rebbe gave me a cup. I had my cup, and the Rebbe took my cup, yes.

1:55:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:55:35 Speaker 1 But he said l’chaim. The Rebbe said—I don’t know. He said not to say l’chaim, but in connection with that, he did say l’chaim to him. Uh, then the Rebbe said that afterward we should say l’chaim and drink immediately. But I didn’t hear it from the Rebbe. So the Rebbe said l’chaim. I said l’chaim twice. Then I said l’chaim again. And the Rebbe said, “Go along with the singing.” He said it twice. But then I had mashke.

1:56:10 Speaker 3 This is where the blessing came in. I heard that the Rebbe said it was only for something that concerned him.

1:56:17 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. That was it. He came in. His hands were wet.

1:56:27 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:56:27 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe—the Rebbe said to him, “Go out and get something to eat.” That’s what happened.

1:56:36 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:56:37 Speaker 1 But he really was there. He had come in from the street, and it was raining, so his hands were wet. He came in, and he wasn’t about to leave because of that. But he came in with the... Yes, I don’t know.

1:57:29 Speaker 3 He made a sharp remark.

1:57:31 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said—

1:57:32 Speaker 3 He caught him.

1:57:34 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:57:37 Speaker 3 Ah. Okay, well, there are—I know there are many people who went from Kharkov to America, then to Paris, then to London, then to New York.

1:57:52 Speaker 1 Yes, to Tashkent.

1:57:54 Speaker 3 Tashkent. So how do you look at all that Lubavitch went through, the path it took? How do you look at our community today—the children, the young people, and—

1:58:13 Speaker 1 It goes around. It was—[unclear]. What is it? What does that have to do with it?

1:58:29 Speaker 3 I’m asking whether it has grown, whether it’s different, what it contributes to the world—all those things. What do you think?

1:58:37 Speaker 1 What does that have to do with it? What does that have to do with it?

1:58:39 Speaker 3 He asks. [unclear]. That’s exactly how it is. This morning.

1:58:47 Speaker 1 What is it?

1:58:48 Speaker 3 Ten years ago, three years ago. But it had a certain character, with— that’s how it was among some of the chassidim. So I’m asking: What’s the approach? What, what, what did the Rebbe—

1:59:02 Speaker 1 What kind of character? What kind? Let it be, let it be—what is it? What is it? What is it? What? Do you know what it is? What is it? What?

1:59:12 Speaker 3 That’s exactly how it is, no?

1:59:14 Speaker 1 Yes. You know what?

1:59:15 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:59:16 Speaker 1 Someone goes with a centimeter, a centimeter there. [unclear]. But, but, but he still feels something. I still feel something. So he says, “What is it?” [unclear]

1:59:45 Speaker 3 That means—those are the conclusions from these things.

1:59:47 Speaker 1 Yes. What are the openings? What is it? [unclear] What is it? [unclear] They sat beside the table. At the same table.

2:00:05 Speaker 3 On the [unclear].

2:00:07 Speaker 1 A certain character, yes?

2:00:09 Speaker 3 That’s something unusual.

2:00:11 Speaker 1 [unclear] Yes.

2:00:12 Speaker 3 Yes.

2:00:13 Speaker 1 But they did sit there specifically, didn’t they?

2:00:17 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

2:00:17 Speaker 1 So, so, so—but not everyone sat beside the table in front of the Rebbe.

2:00:21 Speaker 3 Ah, everyone. Yes.

2:00:21 Speaker 1 So, so—what is it? What is it? What is he? What is he? What is it, this—so these are books, right? From which year until the Rebbe? So these are books, right?

2:00:34 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

2:00:35 Speaker 1 Which year is this, when this was raised, right? These are books of [unclear]. Is that right?

2:00:40 Speaker 3 These are books—

2:00:42 Speaker 1 Books. Of the Rebbe Rashab. The Rebbe Rashab.

2:00:44 Speaker 3 Yes.

2:00:45 Speaker 1 So, so the—

2:00:46 Speaker 3 That’s the Rebbe.

2:00:47 Speaker 1 So the [unclear] specifically sat—so the king did not sit at home. It, it—what is it? The Rebbe is the Rebbe Rashab.

2:00:54 Speaker 3 Yes. That means our generation comes from the Rebbe Rashab.

2:00:57 Speaker 1 The Rebbe Rashab.

2:00:59 Speaker 3 Yes.

2:01:00 Speaker 1 What is it? He specifically sat beside him. He specifically sat beside the table. The Rebbe did not sit beside the table. The Rebbe Rashab is, is the king, the king.

2:01:10 Speaker 3 That’s settled differently. Differently. Okay. This is a celebration of the blessing for [unclear] good years.

2:01:19 Speaker 1 Amen. Amen.

2:01:20 Speaker 3 And may the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, come today. And, uh, their reward is great.

2:01:26 Speaker 1 What does “their reward” mean? Will it be?