What You See From There: The Creator of the "Lev Avos" Podcast in an Open Conversation on Education | Aharon Freiman #019

00:00 Speaker 1 Listening. One word that may describe the deepest need of every bochur. But how do you create a system in which a bochur can speak openly about anything? To answer that question, I sat down with Aharon Freiman, creator of the educational podcast Lev Avos, to hear about his conversations with yeshiva staff and educators, about what happens beneath the surface, and about how caring and attention can make all the difference in a bochur’s life. It’s worth a listen. I’m Meir Vishnapsky, and you’re listening to On Chabad Education. Aharon Freiman, welcome.

00:34 Speaker 2 Hello to the teachers and everyone here.

00:35 Speaker 1 First of all, it’s great to have you here. I’ll also say a little about how we got to know each other first.

00:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

00:40 Speaker 1 And I’d like to hear a bit about your work and what you do in education, in Chabad education. A few months ago, when I was getting into this project, this interview program with educators, I got a phone call from you. We spoke a little, and I discovered a whole world you’d been involved in. I later learned you’d been doing it for years: a Chabad educational program published as a podcast on all the relevant platforms.

01:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

01:21 Speaker 1 I got to listen and enjoy it, and I really felt I’d found a colleague in this shlichus, a colleague with the same goal. I’d love to hear about your work, what you do, and some of the issues you’ve discovered along the journey you’ve been on and are still on. So let’s start with you: tell us a bit about yourself and how you got here.

01:41 Speaker 2 Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me. I’ll reveal a little about why I called you. For the past year and a half, I’ve been working directly on an educational podcast, speaking about education with a great many rabbis and other figures. At first it was in collaboration with an organization called Korban Sheli [unclear], and later we went our separate ways. But I told you, “Listen, there’s no competition in education.” Every educational venture or initiative that goes live is precious and important. And you’ve really put together something that deserves praise: a high-quality podcast, with carefully produced video and prepared questions. Then there’s the graphic design, the editing—everything here shows months of preparation. So this is my opportunity, as someone who works in this field, to tell you that I think I have a lot to learn from you. Well done, and thank you for the privilege of being here. I want to open with a story. Maybe opening with a story is a cliché, but I’ll do it anyway. My parents live in Jerusalem, and before I got married, I lived in Jerusalem too. For years my father was involved with Heichal Menachem, working there and doing various things. I don’t know exactly what all his responsibilities were, but he was part of the operation there. One day he happened to be there, I think when the book Shanim Rishonos had come out. It had a picture of the Rebbe, around the time of his chalakah, with curls. A Belzer chossid approached my father, who worked there, and started telling him about it. He said, “I’m a Belzer chossid, and I teach in a Belz cheder. I have that picture of the Rebbe hanging up in my classroom.” Now,

03:17 Speaker 2 let me make a distinction before I tell you what he said. As Chabad chassidim, we don’t look at the Rebbe as a Jewish child who, through tremendous effort and against all odds—or with the odds in his favor—went on to achieve greatness. It’s clear to us that the Rebbe was the Nasi of the generation from the moment he was born. That was his purpose, his role; his was a collective soul. But from this teacher’s perspective, he said, “Listen, the Rebbe was a child like you or me. Every time I see the Rebbe’s picture, I think: Look at that little boy with curls, and look where he ended up.” He said, “When I see a child in my class who gets on my nerves, who doesn’t learn, who... I tell myself: If the child in that picture became the Lubavitcher Rebbe, maybe this little boy, who even looks a bit like him, could become the next Lubavitcher Rebbe.” Now, I don’t know if he actually said “the next Lubavitcher Rebbe”; I’m not insisting on the exact wording. But his message was: “I look at that picture of the Rebbe and think, this looks like a little boy, and he’ll become someone extraordinary. Every child in my classroom could become someone extraordinary.” That story was so moving that, that year, they told it at Beis Hamechanchim in Nir Etzion, and every educator received a printed wooden copy of that picture, together with the story.

04:17 Speaker 1 Wow.

04:17 Speaker 2 I mean, no one looks at a student and says, “Oh, he’s going to be...” No. But you can say to yourself: Look at this child. Maybe he’s a kid who’s just arrived from France, maybe he’s... Right now he’s mischievous; right now he’s running wild. I think this story is a good way to open because it says something about what we want to see in education: not what’s there now, but what could be. My connection to education began, first and foremost, with being a yeshiva bochur myself. I went through the yeshiva system and learned in it, like all of us. Some people go through that and develop a concern for, and interest in, the subject. When I was a shliach at a yeshiva in France, I also taught a second-grade class and served as a mashpia for Chassidus. Later, when I came to Israel and was in shidduchim, I was on staff at a yeshiva in Beitar. I learned individually with bochurim—both those doing well and those who were struggling—and gave classes. I was even a counselor. After I got married and finished kollel, I also spent a period teaching a class.

05:10 Speaker 1 Mm.

05:11 Speaker 2 And beyond that there’s the podcast, which is a huge field in itself. It also began with lots of conversations about education with rabbis. We’ll talk more about that later.

05:19 Speaker 1 Yes.

05:20 Speaker 2 More than the podcast, though, I think it led to lots of conversations about new initiatives. We can talk later about all the things that happened, or almost happened: a virtual yeshiva program for bochurim after their year of Kevutzah, or an effort to set up a system for keeping in touch with bochurim in yeshivos.

05:35 Speaker 1 So you’ve always been around the world of education. You’ve been part of the system and worked in it a lot.

05:39 Speaker 2 Yes. I’ve personally had the opportunity to be an educator, if I can put it that way, in a number of different roles. And I’ve spoken with many educators, trying either to get a conversation going or to initiate something together.

05:50 Speaker 1 So let’s talk about that. How did you start this program? How did it come about?

05:54 Speaker 2 This particular one?

05:55 Speaker 1 Yes, the educational podcast.

05:57 Speaker 2 I was in Israel. I’d been at the yeshiva in France, then at a Chabad House in Spain, and I came back to Israel while I was in shidduchim. I was at the yeshiva in Beitar, accompanying and helping some bochurim and giving classes. I’d already made podcasts in the past, and I noticed I had some experience with that. We can go into it if you want. Earlier, during COVID, when I was a bochur, I was sitting at home while the yeshiva was closed for a time, and I worked on a book. I called it Kosit Shel Maamar, “A Little Glass of Maamar.” I was trying to write up maamarim in accessible language so that any Israeli, even someone who knew nothing about Chassidus, could understand them. I thought, “How do I promote something like that with no money?”

06:38 Speaker 1 Hold on. You were in yeshiva gedolah, sitting at home, and you thought, “Hey, I’m going to write a book explaining—”

06:42 Speaker 2 Yes. No, actually—I was a bochur who invested quite a bit in my learning. I learned Gemara, several—many tractates, and Kodshim [unclear]. I used to write summaries of my questions on sheets of paper, and I’d summarize my questions while learning Sefer Hachinuch. So I thought, “Listen, I have this thirst for it, and some ability to explain things. I want to put that to use explaining maamarim.” Then I thought, “How do I promote it? Let’s make an audio version of the book: instead of Kosit Shel Maamar, Oznayos Shel Maamar—‘Headphones for a Maamar.’” I uploaded the first episode.

07:10 Speaker 1 Mm.

07:11 Speaker 2 I also got to host Dr. Yechiel Harari and Sivan Rahav-Meir on that podcast. So it was a project by a yeshiva gedolah bochur trying to get maamarim out to people, and—

07:19 Speaker 1 So you would record episodes with content you’d written, explanations of maamarim, and upload them online.

07:24 Speaker 2 Yes. Spotify—only Spotify.

07:26 Speaker 1 Right.

07:27 Speaker 2 And a week later, I discover I have listeners in other countries around the world. And you say, listen, with no budget, whenever I wanted—at two in the morning or ten in the morning—I could reach Switzerland, Sweden, France. Just the ability to do that, regardless of whom I actually reached. Maybe some Swiss person heard me by accident and couldn’t understand what this podcast in Hebrew was. But I was excited by that possibility, and that’s how a lot of episodes about maamarim of Chassidus went up. When I got to Israel, I said, listen, I think there’s a need for conversation about education among the boys, the parents, and the staff. I thought, maybe this is my time. I’m in Israel, dealing with shidduchim, and I’ve spent time in a yeshiva in France and a yeshiva in Israel and seen things up close. Maybe this really is my time. So I approached the Karmi Sheli organization, and this is the place to thank them for their cooperation and their willingness—Rabbi Halperin, Rabbi Nati Galitzky, Rabbi Sivals [?], and Rabbi Deligati [?], who was involved. Later on, we parted ways, and each of us went his own way. But the time we worked together produced so many episodes, so much activity. It was truly a blessing. And here—

08:21 Speaker 1 So Karmi Sheli—what does the organization work on?

08:24 Speaker 2 The organization works with yeshivas. They’re in contact with the yeshivas and the educational staff on all sorts of matters. The podcast is meant to spark conversation, but also, through the conversations in the episodes, to talk with staff and parents about what else needs to change, or what else we need to discuss.

08:40 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

08:41 Speaker 2 And I told them, “Listen, guys, let’s start a project.” There were stages; it takes time to convince people, and then they come around. Rabbi Halperin really invested many, many hours in it. Rabbi Deligati [?] did too. We used to record in person, so we’d actually travel everywhere with recording equipment. I went to every episode, even when we traveled all the way to Migdal HaEmek. They were truly dedicated to it.

09:05 Speaker 1 So you would go to educators.

09:07 Speaker 2 We’d arrange it in advance and talk. I think the first time I felt really excited was when I sat in a yeshiva in Elad—in a music room, by the way—with Frank [?], the principal, a parent, and Rabbi Zakles [?], who was on the yeshiva staff, to talk. There was a picture of Rabbi Halperin sitting between them, and seeing that was a very significant moment. I think—

09:25 Speaker 1 Why?

09:26 Speaker 2 Because I think the most important thing for education to succeed is that all three are partners. Just as there are three partners in the creation of a person—Hakadosh Boruch Hu and his parents, his father and mother—in education, the three partners are the educator, the student, and the student’s parents. When you see that first circle of a parent and a staff member sitting together for a conversation, you feel that something good is happening. It’s an opportunity for the parent to say what he expects. It’s an opportunity for the—Now, things like this happen at staff meetings or parent meetings, but there’s something magical about it happening publicly. It helps make it normal: Guys, this isn’t reserved for staff meetings or parent meetings. Parents, what happens in the yeshiva concerns you. And the staff and the parents are—By the way, that’s what they said in that episode. It was the first episode. That was its subject.

10:12 Speaker 1 What was?

10:13 Speaker 2 The relationship between a parent and the yeshiva.

10:14 Speaker 1 Mm.

10:15 Speaker 2 And how important it is for a parent, even if he differs from the yeshiva staff, to respect them and guide his child to trust that the yeshiva knows what it’s doing. And how important it sometimes is for a parent to know how to maintain discreet contact with the yeshiva when a child is having social difficulties. I think it was a very—

10:29 Speaker 1 For a parent to be involved in everything that happens there.

10:31 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes. There’s an expression I heard from one of the rabbis. By the way, one thing the podcast has given me is so many conversations with so many rabbis. I can’t name most of them—just so many conversations.

10:41 Speaker 1 Recommendations about yeshivas.

10:42 Speaker 2 So many conversations. “Rabbi, would you like to come on an episode? Would you like to be a guest?” “Take this out; put that in.” So many conversations. And someone told me that there are parents—I assume most parents aren’t like this, but there are some, and maybe they even thought this was the right approach—who just send their child off and forget about it. He’s in yeshiva, there’s a staff, they’re paid to do the job, and they know what they’re doing. And sometimes there’s also the effect of a father saying, “Well, I spoke to the rabbi today.” It comes from a lot of directions, and that’s what the podcast tries to do: touch on all these things. Then the podcast grew and reached a much larger scale. Again, we were working without a physical studio; everything was still at an early stage. There were some things we didn’t discuss because we felt it was too soon, or too early in the process. Some parents didn’t—

11:22 Speaker 1 That’s a real concern, and I encounter it a lot too. Even when you want to talk about things, there’s always the concern that you’ll take them to an extreme, or leave them somewhere in the middle, until—

11:32 Speaker 2 Make it bland, or say it honestly.

11:34 Speaker 1 Yes, that’s always a concern. How did you deal with those things, or how do you still deal with them?

11:38 Speaker 2 I think that if we don’t talk about something, nobody ever will. In the end, nobody will be brave enough to discuss things like that. On the other hand, you don’t have to say everything explicitly. For example—just as an example—there was an episode about smartphones. Rabbi Choni Leitzis [?] from Elad sat down with a parent, Shimi Segal, and they talked. I imagine there were many things they might have wanted to say. And I’m not making any claims about the reality, because I’m not a research institute that’s checked who has how many devices or what they watch. I’m not getting into that. I can tell you that there are professionals who think many parents and staff members need to think about these issues together much more deeply, but nothing was said too explicitly.

12:19 Speaker 1 Yes.

12:20 Speaker 2 On the other hand, they did talk about it. The episode showed that this is something we need to deal with.

12:24 Speaker 1 That it’s a reality, and we need to deal with it.

12:26 Speaker 2 In other words: Guys, look, there’s a challenge. What exactly is the challenge? I’m not going into the details, but there is a challenge. You want the details? As I said, many rabbis are afraid to speak candidly. Maybe not because they don’t care about these issues, but because they think, listen, talking about it won’t do any good. It’ll just cause harm. I said, listen, but you’ll come on and talk about the subject. Speak as—what do they call it?—as “Swedish” as you can. Speak Swedish; don’t say anything. But afterward, some listener sitting at home will say to himself, “Why didn’t he say that?” And then he’ll say it to his friend, his mother, his father: “And did you—”

12:59 Speaker 1 You create a ripple effect.

13:00 Speaker 2 In other words, I think some episodes get recorded at home without a microphone.

13:03 Speaker 1 Powerful. Okay, so we said you started the episodes, the project, and I want to ask about this journey. I mean, it wasn’t—

13:13 Speaker 2 It wasn’t a single moment.

13:14 Speaker 1 Right, it wasn’t a single moment. It happened over time, over years. Along the way you also got married, right?

13:18 Speaker 2 And along the way, a daughter was born.

13:20 Speaker 1 Ah, mazel tov. So that happened along the way too. My question is: With all of that, what do you think you learned? After all these episodes and all this time, what have you learned about this world? You’ve sat with many staff members at yeshivas, with parents, at meetings between parents and staff, and you’ve been involved in many projects we’ll still talk about. What do you think you’ve learned from this journey?

13:41 Speaker 2 Wow. It’s hard to put the things I’ve learned into a neat list. I think some of them have become so much a part of me that I don’t even notice anymore that I learned them.

13:51 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

13:51 Speaker 2 I think I’ve come to understand that there’s a tremendous amount of caring beneath the surface, and nobody quite knows how to turn it into an official slogan.

13:58 Speaker 1 What do you mean? Explain.

13:59 Speaker 2 I mean, there are so many things—you know, all of Judaism is built around the power of questions. The Alter Rebbe explains that Adam receives the question “Where are you?” and then there’s “What does Hashem your G-d ask of you?” So many important things begin with a question. Listen, if you want to stir someone, you need to put a question mark in front of him. When you make an ordinary statement, he gives you a halfhearted response. But when you ask him a question, you wake him up for a moment. Say you ask, “Did you clean your room today?” You’ve put a question mark over what he did, so he answers more forcefully: “Of course I cleaned my room!” You say, “But did you clean your room?” I don’t know if that was the sharpest example. My point is that many things in life call for answers, and for thought, and then for more thought, even if you’ve already thought about them and circumstances have changed. I think a lot of people simply say, “Listen, I’d like to ask what we’re supposed to do about this, but I don’t have the courage. Who am I to ask?” Someone once told me, “If you don’t have solutions, talking doesn’t help.” I think that when you talk about things, you give someone the chance to eventually ask about a solution.

15:09 Speaker 1 Because you raise the issue. You bring it up for people. You’ve put a question mark in front of them.

15:14 Speaker 2 Because if you always leave it as a period or an exclamation point, no one will try to solve it. It’s as if everything’s fine, everything’s good. I think there are many rabbis—and, by the way, many bochurim; I get approaches like this myself—and many staff members and parents who—

15:31 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

15:32 Speaker 2 —say, “Listen, we’d like to do something, we’d like to talk, but it’s not that simple.” You can find ways to justify the situation as it is. I think the goal of the podcast isn’t—by the way, this needs to be said: the yeshivos are in charge. They make the decisions; they know what they’re doing. At the same time, there’s an opportunity here to say that we want, together with the rabbis in the yeshivos—after all, everyone who comes on the episodes is a rabbi in a yeshiva—together with them, with the parents who come on, and with the bochurim who come and go, to say: “Guys, we want to speak up.” Take the food, for example. Often the food in yeshivos can be good or not good.

16:09 Speaker 1 That’s very important.

16:10 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

16:11 Speaker 1 You know.

16:11 Speaker 2 No, really, how important is it? I’m not rolling my eyes.

16:13 Speaker 1 Now there’s a program we’re starting. So there’s Chai Elul, when the yeshiva started. You remember when it starts, right? And the [unclear]—when was that established? What opened as part of it?

16:22 Speaker 2 About the food.

16:23 Speaker 1 About the food. So the yeshiva began—it opened, so to speak.

16:27 Speaker 2 Right, right.

16:28 Speaker 1 And that’s not for nothing, it’s...

16:29 Speaker 2 I think the dining hall says a lot. I may have wanted to talk about it later. Let’s see how we get to it. But what I’m saying is that when the food in a yeshiva is passable, even if people would like it to improve, no one gets up, raises the alarm and arranges for a cook. We’ll manage. But when the food reaches a really problematic point, suddenly they bring in a new cook. Suddenly they put in a new kitchen. It’s like...

16:50 Speaker 1 They reset everything.

16:52 Speaker 2 I think people are afraid of reaching that point. People only wake up when things reach an extreme.

16:58 Speaker 1 Yes.

16:58 Speaker 2 And I think that with many things, we’re not at that point, so it’s like, listen...

17:02 Speaker 1 Everything’s fine. Let’s leave it as it is; it’s comfortable.

17:03 Speaker 2 Now, a lot of things are going well. Let me expand on what I said for a moment. Beneath the surface, there’s a lot of care and dedication. Parents make sure their child has everything he needs materially. Some parents pay staff members extra for hours spent learning with or listening to their child. And there are rabbis who stay for hours—rabbis who, by the way, work in yeshivos for salaries that, what can you do, aren’t at the top of the Israeli pay scale.

17:26 Speaker 1 At the top of the chart, yes.

17:28 Speaker 2 And I think there’s a tremendous amount of care, most of which translates into everyday actions. A rabbi spends half an hour with his students; a parent brings a little treat between classes. There’s a great deal more besides. But when do we take it to the next level? That probably happens when we make these things public, when we say, “We all want this; we all believe in it.” And then, in conversation with the rabbis and the yeshivos, everything remains under their supervision. No one is telling a rosh yeshiva what to do. When a yeshiva, its rabbis and staff, together with the parents, come to understand something, they’ll solve it. They’ll move it forward.

18:01 Speaker 1 Wow. So you’re trying to create the wave? You’re trying to get some kind of wave going?

18:05 Speaker 2 I’d say I think I’m trying to reveal the wave.

18:08 Speaker 1 Meaning it’s already there.

18:09 Speaker 2 The wave is there. The wave is there.

18:10 Speaker 1 Powerful.

18:11 Speaker 2 I think—listen, my podcast isn’t... I’d only hosted a very few episodes. Let’s put it this way: I didn’t even host any of the first twenty episodes. Only in the more recent episodes have I been doing that fairly often.

18:27 Speaker 1 You were really behind the scenes.

18:30 Speaker 2 Yes and no. Because, actually, there isn’t that much of a “behind the scenes.” I wasn’t running around holding a boom mic. It was more a matter of arranging a conversation: what we’d talk about, what we wouldn’t, what questions to ask. Are you going to tell a rabbi what to talk about and what not to talk about? You tell the rabbi what matters. I called it content editing. I initiated the content, and I was also involved in the logistics of putting it together, sending it out and uploading it. In the more recent episodes, I sat down to talk as someone who—I don’t know if “host” is the word, because a host sounds very formal. In a conversation, you’re really just bringing up the audience’s questions. I simply let the rabbis and parents speak. They say what’s on their hearts. Often I can identify with it and believe in it, but ultimately, it’s not as though there’s some... I told you this before the episode: of course I have a perspective. Of course I have a view and an opinion, like anyone else. But I didn’t come to these episodes to put forward some educational doctrine. Based on what I understand, I might try to put an episode together: “Listen, I think this subject is terribly important. I think this question is very important. Let’s talk about it.” But in a sense, I’m not the one making the pronouncements. I may say things, but I’m not issuing practical rulings.

19:43 Speaker 1 Yes.

19:44 Speaker 2 I’m the one asking the questions. I’m just asking.

19:47 Speaker 1 Powerful.

19:47 Speaker 2 Ultimately, I think you hear people talking; you hear parents talking. By the way, for every recorded episode, there’s probably another half an episode or a whole episode, so to speak, that wasn’t recorded because there wasn’t time or it wasn’t possible. The desire to talk is much greater. I think you encounter that too.

20:03 Speaker 1 Yes.

20:03 Speaker 2 You’re trying to do that here as well. The desire to talk is enormous, because people want to talk about the situation—and, by the way, to praise it and strengthen it too. It’s not always about coming out swinging and saying, “Come on, this needs to be better.”

20:14 Speaker 1 Yes.

20:15 Speaker 2 But people want to talk. They want a platform for it.

20:19 Speaker 1 I’ll tell you, from our conversations here and there, there’s something I see in you that’s amazing: that drive. You have this seemingly endless drive. We only start talking about a subject and you’re already pulling out one point after another. Where does that drive come from? You could be involved in many different things. You also need to provide for your family; you’re married now, with a daughter. Where does your drive to come and do something like this come from? I mean, what keeps you from—because what about—

20:47 Speaker 2 What motivates me?

20:47 Speaker 1 What’s your deeper motivation in this? What do you, so to speak, gain from it?

20:52 Speaker 2 Oh, oh.

20:52 Speaker 1 Yes, we both know.

20:53 Speaker 2 Let me add a footnote. I do this entirely as a volunteer. During the period when I was at “Karmi Sheli” [?], there was something—you know, as part of that role, I was responsible for the podcasts and for other things we tried to move forward there. Some worked out, some didn’t; that’s another matter. Not everything depends on the person doing the work. There was no pay. By the way, I was single then—a bochur. Well, no, I stayed for a short time after my wedding and then left. And for the past few months, this has been run entirely on a volunteer basis.

21:18 Speaker 1 So what’s the drive? What motivates you to come and do something like this? You’ve got enough on your plate, I think—a daughter, making a living, studies, everything. What’s the drive?

21:28 Speaker 2 Wow. That’s a big question. I think it takes a long time to give a real answer. Let’s put a few things together. First and foremost, I think it’s simply understanding how important this is, and because you understand how important it is, you care about it. And the reason you care is that you’ve come to understand deeply how important it is for people to talk about this, and you’ve felt how much good it can do. What exactly creates that? It could be that you listened to certain people along the way and thought, “Wow, I’ve heard them say a few things, and I agree with what they’re saying.” That’s different from someone who hasn’t met those people or spoken with them. Say, for example, someone who grew up around businesspeople probably understands business better; he’s heard a lot from businesspeople. Someone who grew up around cooks probably understands cooking. Someone who, in yeshiva, approaches the rabbis and staff members, talks with them, and says, “Listen, Rabbi, this is the situation in the yeshiva right now. What do you think about it?” Or, “How do we change it?” By the way, even in the younger yeshiva I attended—I don’t know exactly why, but I always had this desire—I would sometimes approach first-year students for whom learning was more... I won’t say they struggled with learning, but learning was new to them. Sometimes they did struggle with it, too.

22:38 Speaker 1 When you were—

22:38 Speaker 2 And I took responsibility for them.

22:40 Speaker 1 When you were in your third year or something.

22:41 Speaker 2 Even in my second year.

22:42 Speaker 1 Mm.

22:43 Speaker 2 Really. I remember there was once a power outage in the yeshiva, and all the first-year students got excited. You know, it was a big deal, and they brought flashlights and everything. And I said to a first-year student—I mean, seven years from now, what difference will it make? I mean... I think in the end it comes down to caring, together with certain traits, certain abilities. There are plenty of other people in education. What motivates them to be there? Why is every other rabbi in the yeshiva world today instead of going off to do something else? He’d probably tell you it’s caring, and probably abilities, too. I think you’re gett—maybe you’ve put your finger on the fact that I come up with new things and bring energy to them. It’s simpler than that... I think the more it burns inside you, the more you say, “Listen, things could be so much better.”

23:27 Speaker 1 So that’s the point, you’re saying. You feel things could be much better than they are.

23:30 Speaker 2 By the way, in the end, I also think it’s partly DNA, partly genetics, partly personality. I mean, it’s probably there in the other things I do as well—when I go to give a talk at a shul, and in other things I do. Again, probably that same touch, my own style.

23:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

23:44 Speaker 2 Maybe it comes out even more in this. Maybe I put more hours into this. By the way, one of the stories that has stayed with me most is the story about the Rebbe and the group of women who got stranded in Michigan. They called the Rebbe’s secretariat on Friday. They were married women with children from Crown Heights, and they said, “What are we going to do? There’s snow.” And the secretary asks them—the Rebbe asks—“What do you mean, stranded?” Now they’re already... The call is about to end, and one of them says, “What do you mean, ‘What does stranded mean?’ I don’t have time for philosophical explanations right now.” He tells her, “No, no, I don’t think the Rebbe doesn’t know what stranded means. I think that if you’re in Michigan and Hakadosh Boruch Hu put you there, and He runs the world, and you believe that He runs the world, then you’re probably not there for no reason.” And they tell how they did a neshek campaign there and met a Jewish woman, or several Jewish women, and... I can’t. By the way, that’s why I was so moved when you started this podcast. I haven’t seen many other people doing it. I’ll tell you honestly: lately, almost every week I reach out to someone at Kfar Chabad magazine and say, “Listen, the magazine is so beautiful, so much work goes into it, but there needs to be much more discussion of education—of the challenges, the solutions, the successes. We need to talk about it.” I really think that where there isn’t enough, you have to step in. There are so many educators and people working in education. Is anyone making it relevant to parents? Relevant to the students?

24:59 Speaker 3 Making that connection.

25:01 Speaker 2 Yes. I mean, there’s a lot of content and a lot of education and a lot going on, but it stays within the system. If you’re in the yeshiva, you pay attention to it. If you’re a parent, less so. And I think there’s a desire to connect the two.

25:12 Speaker 3 Yes, absolutely. Every time I invite educators here, a lot of them tell me—many people’s first answer is no. The cameras, the whole thing.

25:20 Speaker 2 I don’t have cameras, but still.

25:22 Speaker 3 “Why would I start talking publicly?” They can speak in the yeshiva in front of three hundred, four hundred students, no problem. But when it goes out beyond the yeshiva, it makes them think—

25:28 Speaker 2 Someone told me, “If it’s recorded, then no.”

25:30 Speaker 3 Yes.

25:30 Speaker 2 And I thought, okay, imagine it isn’t recorded.

25:32 Speaker 3 What pains me is that—okay, and I say it’s a shame. There are so many people here making a difference, working in this field, who have spent years in it, years trying to find solutions—because in education there are no set solutions. You know, they work at it, keep working, devote their lives to it.

25:45 Speaker 2 The first rule of education is that there are no rules.

25:47 Speaker 3 No, exactly. They work hard in a field that, how did we put it, isn’t exactly at the top of the pay scale. They give it their all, and there are so many staff members everywhere. I meet so many—

25:58 Speaker 2 I think it needs to be said that every staff member—maybe, you know, we take it so much for granted that we don’t say it enough. Not a single staff member in our yeshivas should be taken for granted. It’s amazing that he’s there, and he deserves credit for being there. In any institution, I imagine someone might want to tell his friend or a staff member, “Look, it would be better if you did this differently...” Fine. But the very fact that you’re there, that you’re willing to give of yourself, is amazing. You know, I once spoke with one of the rabbis—I won’t say his name, but he’s a well-known rabbi whom I wanted to invite. He told me, “No, I won’t come and speak with a microphone on.” I said to him, “What if it were a Tanya class for nonreligious graduates of the Technion in Haifa? Would you pass that up too? Maybe you could get them to listen?” He was quiet for a moment, and then he said, “That’s not the same thing.” I think, you know, part of what we want as Chabad chassidim is to teach our children always to give to others. And I have this feeling that within Chabad, the attitude is, “Listen, we’re in the yeshiva world anyway, so there isn’t really an obligation to keep talking about it all the time.” I don’t think anyone is obligated to do anything. Sometimes guests don’t come because they don’t have time, or don’t have the energy. It’s personal, too. Someone simply might not like cameras or microphones.

27:08 Speaker 3 Yes.

27:09 Speaker 2 But if—and I can’t read minds—if there were no other consideration besides “No, I just don’t feel it’s urgent,” I think that’s a missed opportunity, because, as we said, there really is an audience waiting for it.

27:22 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

27:23 Speaker 2 So imagine you’re simply speaking to an audience of people who are becoming involved in Yiddishkeit. Imagine you’re giving an event. Think of it as going to give a class to a group of people who don’t regularly hear Torah. Maybe yours is the Torah class they’ll hear. I’m saying, “Listen, they’ll hear a Torah class with you now, or they may never hear one.” Would you still tell me, “No, I won’t pick up a microphone”?

27:40 Speaker 3 For us as Chabad chassidim, it’s always easier when we’re reaching outward. When it’s within our own community, there are all these concerns about what to say and how. Outward, as Chabad, we’re immediately there. You said you’re involved in a lot of other initiatives besides this—or along the way. I also came across one of yours concerning shidduchim. Is there a particular initiative you’d like to share, whether it’s one you’ve started working on, one that got stuck, one that’s in progress, or just a dream?

28:04 Speaker 2 So I’ve been involved in—let me put it this way: I didn’t found some of these things at all. With some, I simply heard an invitation to join and accepted it. Some of the initiatives had been dormant after falling through a decade ago, more or less. With others, I was the first person to make a call about them. But we’ve managed to do a few things. We had—

28:22 Speaker 3 Give me one. Pick one from all of them...

28:24 Speaker 2 So I want to talk about something that didn’t get off the ground back then, but I think it’s important that it does. Dovi Brod also spoke about it in the previous episode I did with him on the Lev Avos podcast. Other rabbis talked about it behind the scenes. In fact, some very significant people in the Chabad world tried to move it forward, and I think it needs to happen.

28:41 Speaker 3 All right, great. What’s the initiative?

28:44 Speaker 2 It was presented from a few different angles. I think we’ll go through all the points. A support system for every Tomim. We know how important “aseh lecha rav”—choosing a rav for yourself—is from the Rebbe’s instruction, but it goes beyond that. We say, “What do you mean, an instruction from the Rebbe?” The Rebbe said it was his heartfelt request that every chossid have an “aseh lecha rav.” Beyond that, today we understand how great the need is. Even the most successful people in the world—lehavdil, a million times over, the best soccer players in the world—have a personal coach. There’s always someone accompanying you. Businesspeople have that too.

29:23 Speaker 3 Yes, having someone guide you is really catching on today.

29:25 Speaker 2 Exactly. If anything, having that guidance shows you’re at the top of your game.

29:28 Speaker 3 Someone made a good point to me. It used to be that a mashpia would say something at a farbrengen, or someone would point something out to you, whether at a farbrengen or in a personal conversation, and that was it. What matters today isn’t just—

29:42 Speaker 2 Putting it into practice.

29:43 Speaker 3 But accompanying the young person, the bochur, along the way. And we should have that person even when I’m thirty or twenty—it doesn’t matter how old I am. Getting married doesn’t exempt me from this. I need to be able to call my mashpia: “I’m not doing well in my Yiddishkeit. I want to be in a better, higher place,” and so on.

29:58 Speaker 2 Right.

29:59 Speaker 3 That ongoing guidance is very important, beyond just giving someone an answer.

30:02 Speaker 2 I think the word that sums it up is implementation. What do you actually put into practice?

30:07 Speaker 3 Yes.

30:08 Speaker 2 Wow. You know, my thinking with the Lev Avos WhatsApp channel was that, above all, it should be a place where people can find the content. They can also go back and look through it. It’s an opportunity, too, and maybe it’s an experiment that needs refining and improving, not changing: giving the audience a chance to speak. Partly because it’s important to hear from them—not because they decide what we should do. Let’s simply hear what parents and bochurim, and girls too if it’s about shidduchim, actually think.

30:37 Speaker 3 Yes.

30:38 Speaker 2 And it also makes someone say, “Wow, he wrote about that? I don’t know who that parent is, because it’s anonymous, but he wrote about it. I want to take an interest in my child too. I want to write about it too. I want to talk about it too. I might even want to donate to it.” It doesn’t matter which fund. He might donate to his child’s Talmud Torah. Not to Lev Avos—Lev Avos doesn’t have a fund, doesn’t solicit donations, nothing like that. It’s simply, as we said, that we’re trying to awaken—

30:59 Speaker 3 Yes.

30:59 Speaker 2 To bring the trend to light. I ran a poll asking how many bochurim speak with their “aseh lecha rav,” or how many bochurim have one at all. The numbers were very low. Now, you know, you don’t get fifteen hundred votes. You’re not raffling off prizes on your channel, though maybe tomorrow we should do something like that. But say you get seventy responses within a minute. Then, you know, it’s like polling for political seats: you say, “Look at the trend.”

31:28 Speaker 3 Yes.

31:28 Speaker 2 If seventy voted in favor and ten against, you know there might be seven hundred and a hundred. It’s not really precise, but you get a sense of where people stand.

31:36 Speaker 3 And what did the poll actually show?

31:37 Speaker 2 Very low numbers.

31:38 Speaker 3 Wow.

31:39 Speaker 2 It got to—I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I think it was around thirty-five on one side and five on the other. I may be remembering wrong. The numbers might have gone up afterward, or the votes might have gone down. You know, people can cancel their votes.

31:48 Speaker 3 Yes.

31:49 Speaker 2 So that number might not be exact.

31:50 Speaker 3 More or less. It doesn’t matter; it was—

31:51 Speaker 2 Low numbers. And I didn’t need the poll to know that. More than that, I think when you run a poll like this, parents and bochurim on the channel say, “Wow, there are thirty-four other people thinking about this.” I think the reality is that bochurim don’t go and talk to the rabbis very much. Maybe that’s natural. Maybe approaching a rabbi feels strange. Maybe I don’t feel I can speak openly with him. Maybe if I speak openly with the rabbi about the very issue I’m dealing with, it will hurt my standing. And the rabbis, by the way—I’ve spoken with several recently—are very busy. They’re supporting families and teaching in yeshivos. I recently spoke with a rabbi who told me, “Listen, I’d love to spend hours talking with bochurim, but my role in the yeshiva is as a mashiv. I have to prepare the Gemara material, and I have to teach.”

32:36 Speaker 4 You know what’s nice? I spoke to someone about this, and he told me that in their yeshiva—a yeshiva ketana in Tzfas, for example—they pay the staff for hours spent in personal conversations with—

32:53 Speaker 2 That’s the idea of strengthening the connection.

32:54 Speaker 4 And they get paid for it. There’s an allocated amount. At first I said to him, “What?” It sounded as though the personal conversation would be forced, you know? A personal conversation is supposed to come from the heart, from wanting to sit down with a bochur. He said, “It happens.” What he meant was, “If this arrangement weren’t there, it wouldn’t happen at all.” I think it’s incredible that they pay for it and set aside specific hours for personal conversations with students.

33:18 Speaker 2 What you’re describing is more or less the idea of a structured system for staying connected. I spoke privately with rabbis from yeshivos—Lod, Kiryat Gat, and several others—and with very significant people in Chabad yeshiva education. They said, “Listen, we want to listen to the bochurim, and we can. But I can’t do it when I have a family to support, I have to get back to the yeshiva early, I have to...” What you said they’re doing in that yeshiva is more or less the model. A few years ago, people had already made efforts and could see the beginnings of a financial and organizational framework for it. You also want to arrange things so a rabbi doesn’t receive a budget and use it all on a small number of bochurim. Rather, he can say, “I spoke with this bochur; this month, make time for a conversation.”

33:58 Speaker 4 Wow.

33:58 Speaker 2 Several people tried to establish this from different directions. It fell through for technical reasons, and I think it needs to happen. At Lev Avos, we tried to use the fact that we reach an audience to say, “Listen, parents, know that this exists. Support it. Let’s present it to the rabbis and to potential funders.” It’s what you said is happening there.

34:15 Speaker 4 Did you succeed? Did it move forward?

34:16 Speaker 2 Right now, it’s still at the stage of efforts, but—

34:19 Speaker 4 Wow. It’s so important.

34:21 Speaker 2 I think at some point I probably needed to say—look, at one point I said, “We really want this to happen.” I wouldn’t even call myself the person in charge. I’m just one small part of the conversations and the work around it. I’ve had opportunities to push it along, help get it moving, or speak with people involved. When Dovi Brod[unclear] gets up in front of everyone and says, “Friends, this is what’s missing”—we can go into the exact solution in a moment, since we’ve already started talking about it. But the need is for every bochur to be able to approach a rabbi who will listen to him about everything—everything. To be able to talk even about things that are permitted or forbidden, not from a place of “Is this allowed?” but from a place of “Listen, I need you to hear me.”

34:57 Speaker 4 Yes. I’ve had the privilege of working in education, and I often find that you can have really deep conversations with a bochur, but—

35:05 Speaker 2 He won’t tell you about the—

35:06 Speaker 4 But there are things where he’s living in a completely parallel world. For example, if we’re talking about smartphones—

35:12 Speaker 2 And we don’t know.

35:13 Speaker 4 Yes, we’re not there.

35:13 Speaker 2 It’s an iceberg.

35:14 Speaker 4 We’re not there.

35:15 Speaker 2 The thing is, we think we know. I think I have a bit of a particular perspective here. I wouldn’t say I’m a young bochur, but I was a bochur not so long ago. I mean—

35:24 Speaker 4 Yes.

35:25 Speaker 2 Three, four years, then kvutza—you’re still encountering this world from a bochur’s perspective. I know how tempting it was for me, during kvutza, to think, “Well, that bochur is there, and that bochur is there.” I imagine that today, with technology—by the way, you know AI is now available even on phones through text messages, and on kosher phones by calling in. So I think there are a lot of challenges to talk about. And not just challenges like that: mental, spiritual, social challenges. A lot.

35:50 Speaker 4 It’s incredible. There’s so much work to do, and I think having someone who listens solves a lot of these things. If someone is there—and it’s important to say this, I imagine, if there are bochurim listening—the parents and the yeshiva staff are there, I mean—

36:01 Speaker 2 That’s what they’re there for.

36:02 Speaker 4 Yes, that’s what they’re there for. Go, reach out. At least in my experience, that’s how it was in my yeshivos too: whenever I wanted to, I could. You just have to dare to come and do it.

36:13 Speaker 2 I think, of course, that’s a call we need to make to the bochurim. Some of the staff will say, “Listen, when a bochur comes to me, I won’t always have the—”

36:19 Speaker 4 Tools.

36:19 Speaker 2 “Time to listen.” And what about tools? Or maybe, “The budget—I simply need to put bread on the table. I have another part-time job on the side.”

36:25 Speaker 4 Actually, on this specific subject of conversations in yeshivos, I think we’ve prepared some very good material that we’ll play. But I think it’s absolutely critical. And this initiative—how can someone support it? If I do want to support it?

36:38 Speaker 2 So I think it’s very simple.

36:40 Speaker 4 Wait, are you looking to set up something that works in one particular yeshiva, or in all the yeshivos?

36:44 Speaker 2 I think the vision is for every yeshiva to have something like this. By the way, it doesn’t really matter who runs it. As far as I’m concerned, each yeshiva could have its own independent setup, or there could be an umbrella organization—as long as it gets established and happens. I personally didn’t intend to be the active director of it. Again, perhaps on principle, at this stage I don’t want to take on something that would require me to draw a salary. And getting involved in fundraising and a campaign is a whole undertaking in itself. I can’t name names, but there are some very significant rabbis whose names, if made public, would make the situation clear. Everyone says, “Wow, so leading Chabad educators are already on board.” It’s just that, practically, they’re busy with other things and other responsibilities. I come in from the side and say, “Listen, I know you’re busy with a lot of things. I think this is important, and I’m not busy with a billion things. I want to get you focused on it.” That’s what the conversation has been. How can you support it? I think by contacting the yeshivos—maybe the people at the top, maybe the younger rabbis, maybe the regular rabbis, the ones who run the... I’m not talking about some board meeting. Even tell an ordinary rabbi in a yeshiva, “Listen, it’s important to get this going; it’s important to improve it.” What you said about the yeshiva in Tzfas has existed in many yeshivos, in various forms, over the years. Maybe it stopped, maybe it continues; I don’t keep track. What’s missing, in the end, is some expansion and strengthening of it—

38:05 Speaker 4 So if I want to—

38:06 Speaker 2 If you want to support it, just get a conversation going about it. Talk about it with parents, with staff members, with fundraisers. And if you have any kind of financial influence, or public influence too... The more this gets talked about... By the way, you can send letters to the editorial teams at Kfar Chabad and COL and other outlets. Just keep this conversation going. If it matters to you, keep talking about it. Say someone sees that a bus route in his city is working terribly, and he writes about it online so something will change. He doesn’t wait for someone else to write about transportation; he writes about it himself. I think this appeal is also addressed to all the rabbis, staff members and professionals who are involved in so many things. This thing you’re working on, too—perhaps it’s worth thinking creatively about how to move it forward sooner. You know, at first they talked about a huge number of bochurim. They talked about a thousand bochurim.

38:55 Speaker 4 What were they talking about—a thousand bochurim—

38:57 Speaker 2 This system, where every—

38:58 Speaker 4 Is that the phone system, as it was originally conceived?

39:01 Speaker 2 There’s the thing we called Mishlei; I have a phone system, but that’s unrelated. They were talking about a system within the yeshivos: staff members would be paid for the extra hours they stay; they would receive professional training and be matched to the work, based on which rabbis are better at it and which ones the bochurim connect with. There would be more specialized training, and perhaps other things the yeshivos could decide on together with those organizations and donors. It’s theirs; no one else can decide for them. At first, they talked about reaching a thousand bochurim, and that comes to astronomical sums, and there are other constraints and other issues. But I said, “Listen, maybe it could start smaller. Maybe there could be a pilot, maybe one yeshiva, maybe just a small number of bochurim.” I think that, you know, there are things that aren’t critical, and we give them up. We mustn’t give up on things that are critical. So you take out a loan. Now, I’m not telling anyone to take out loans. I’m not telling anyone what to do. I’m giving my opinion. Imagine I weren’t the host of the Chabad podcast Lev Avos. Suppose I were just a parent, or a bochur, or an educator. Or imagine I were a professional educator from the Ministry of Education, simply coming in to give my opinion. I’d say, “Listen, in my personal opinion—I’m not obligating anyone, I don’t know what to tell you—I can say the community wants this, the parents want it, the rabbis want it. Even if there’s a donor, people will pay for it. It’s important to find a creative way to get a foot in the door, to get this started. Even one small unit.”

40:19 Speaker 4 Incredible. Wow, good luck with that. Listen, that’s a major undertaking. I—

40:23 Speaker 2 Yes, I also—I wish you—

40:25 Speaker 4 I’m glad you’re here talking about it. That seems to me like a start, something I can do to help. So there’s an initiative you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation: a yeshiva for bochurim after kvutza.

40:37 Speaker 2 Ah, yes. That was—

40:38 Speaker 4 Can you tell us a little more about that?

40:40 Speaker 2 Well—

40:41 Speaker 4 What happens in our yeshivos today? A bochur goes to kvutza, finishes kvutza, and then either goes on shlichus to a Chabad House or on shlichus to a yeshiva. And if not, where does he go?

40:51 Speaker 2 I—

40:53 Speaker 4 There’s no answer.

40:54 Speaker 2 Yes. I think it goes further than that. I think that at some point a bochur’s focus and attention begin to scatter. A little after kvutza, or during kvutza itself, or even a little before kvutza, some would say. You know, we had an episode about the fourth year of yeshiva. There was another episode about the fourth year that I wanted to put out, but I couldn’t find a guest who was directly involved with a fourth-year program. I spoke with one of the rabbis at a large yeshiva—a yeshiva with a large student body and—

41:24 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

41:24 Speaker 2 A very important yeshiva; I won’t name it. He told me something that isn’t unique to that yeshiva—it applies to all the large yeshivos. He said, “Look, the desire to establish a fourth year is a positive one.” He told me that one of the yeshiva’s former mashgichim, who I don’t think is still alive, had said, “I have a hard time keeping the third-year bochurim engaged. How am I going to do it in a fourth year?” That isn’t a shortcoming; it’s simply natural growth. The bochur is older. His mindset really is already, “Come on, I’m grown up and independent. I want to spend a whole year with the Rebbe at 770, or somewhere else, and farbreng. I’m a grown bochur—let me.” I think that affects the way he learns, the way he interacts with the mashgiach in yeshiva, and his social life too. In kvutza, a bochur really... By the way, I don’t know whether that’s such a simple thing. Is it every Chabad parent’s dream for their son in kvutza to go everywhere a bochur in kvutza can go? I don’t know. On the other hand, in terms of developing independence, I think there are bochurim who test themselves. In yeshivos—

42:30 Speaker 4 Absolutely.

42:31 Speaker 2 If yeshiva has an element of others building you up, kvutza has an element of building yourself. And building sometimes means coming into contact with a construction site. Sometimes there’s dirt too.

42:41 Speaker 4 It’s unpleasant.

42:42 Speaker 2 You know, you build a house with a hammer and nails, but here you’re building yourself. You know, say there’s a bochur who gets up late for six months. Then, after six months, he accomplishes what a mashgiach couldn’t accomplish with hundreds of shekels in fines. He says to himself, “Wow, I haven’t gotten up on time for Shacharis in six months. Oh my goodness, I...” So that comes from his own choice—

43:01 Speaker 4 Yes, he takes ownership of it. It’s his.

43:02 Speaker 2 It’s his.

43:02 Speaker 4 That’s something else.

43:03 Speaker 2 You know, Chassidus maamarim talk about this all the time: what is a true king? A true king is someone the people want, not a king imposed on them. That’s the whole distinction of Purim. The Rebbe says that on Purim, the Jewish people wanted, of their own accord, to connect to Hakadosh Boruch Hu, whereas at the giving of the Torah it was imposed on them. I think that now comes the stage of kvutza, when a bochur, as we said, develops independence. By the way, the bochur approaches learning on his own. From my perspective, it’s much easier when a bochur learns because the mashgiach gets him to learn, or because the other bochurim do. But a bochur also discovers himself, both mentally and socially. He builds his independence; he’s far from home. Now, you could say that in yeshivos today the social situation is already a bit unfocused. So I think there’s a very, very big gap here too. In other words, a bochur’s social world becomes very scattered during kvutza, and many of his social ties become ties based on labels: “I learned here, I learned there...” In day-to-day life, I’m not sure there’s really a strong, active connection between everyone, the way there is when the shiur is having a farbrengen together. The guys sit together, but they aren’t always sitting there feeling, “This is who I am.” So I have one version of myself in my room and another version of myself at 770. I can be a serious learner who studies at 770 all day while my friend isn’t, and I can also be a bochur in my room buying Bitcoin. After kvutza—

44:13 Speaker 4 Yes.

44:13 Speaker 2 Even the four walls of 770, or anywhere else, or bochurim who travel to other places—there’s no longer... There’s no longer spending Shabbos together at the Ohel, no longer spending Shabbos together at 770. Those things are gone.

44:27 Speaker 4 That group falls apart. Well, not falls apart—it disperses.

44:30 Speaker 2 Now, what do you do? You quickly find some kind of social circle. So I’m a shliach here, I’m a shliach there, I’m a shliach somewhere else. By the way, being a shliach at a Chabad House or in a yeshiva—those are wonderful things. But even there, the connection with a staff member, or with the bochur... If, in yeshiva, the connection with that bochur was limited—relatively limited, yes? There are many rabbis and bochurim who did have a connection, but not to the extent we’d want—then after kvutza, those numbers certainly go down. And there are certainly many more dilemmas, many more uncertainties. You’re no longer... How does the rabbi put it? The fact that an old pilot doesn’t move isn’t because he’s gotten wiser; his body has simply gotten heavier. You have more challenges. What a bochur in yeshiva ketana had only begun to understand, a bochur in yeshiva gedola already knows inside out about life and about his challenges before shidduchim. He may need to support himself. Socially, he’s really not in the same place as a bochur in yeshiva ketana who can turn to his mother, his father, or his mashgiach. And then there’s learning, and phones today, and everything is more... I think there was something here—you think there isn’t. Even in places that have shluchim, whether at a yeshiva in Israel or abroad, or even at a well-organized Chabad House where a bochur comes to serve as a shliach, he doesn’t always really have—

45:41 Speaker 4 A support system.

45:41 Speaker 2 An inner sense of what he wants from Tanya. He might very much want to study for semicha for a year; he might very much want to finish Shas; he might very much want to finish a tractate. But that’s... By the way, this is a natural stage of life, especially with the fairly loose framework that develops after kvutza. There was an idea, an initiative that really moved forward. By the way, everyone unanimously agreed it was needed. The question was how to do it. For years, people have tried to establish a physical yeshiva. I personally know of four such institutions that closed before they even opened.

46:12 Speaker 4 Really? So they—

46:12 Speaker 2 In Israel.

46:13 Speaker 4 Started an initiative—

46:14 Speaker 2 Yes, and in the end they discovered it wasn’t so simple. Because ultimately, you can find funding for these things, and you can find a place, but finding bochurim is a bit harder. In practice, who would come? So why, really, shouldn’t a bochur stay on the 770–shlichus track? I mean, why would I—

46:28 Speaker 4 It’s very much a comfort zone for the bochur.

46:30 Speaker 2 Why would I need to come to some physical yeshiva with a mashgiach watching over me, where I have to be the tenth man for a minyan and can’t just... And by the way, maybe I’m a bochur who wants to start looking into shidduchim? I want to... And that day I need to go to Meir Buzaglo. Whereas if I’m a shliach in a yeshiva ketana, I can be there and disappear for a while, and I don’t owe anyone anything. I haven’t really brought some whole structure crashing down. There were several people involved with us in this initiative, and then, for technical reasons, the initiative split off and went ahead without them. Rabbi Cooperman from the yeshiva in Kiryat Gat was there with me, as was Rabbi Goldschmidt from the yeshiva in Kfar Chabad, Rabbi Yaroslavsky, a member of the Chabad Rabbinical Court who is also with the yeshiva in Kiryat Gat, and Yaakov Rubinstein, who is a chassan instructor. There were other rabbis behind the scenes too, who really said, “Guys, let’s put together some kind of learning program.” There’s Lemaan Yilmedu—you know Lemaan Yilmedu? I’ve been in touch with them too. I’ve sometimes been involved with their content, and I’ve helped them make a few halachic podcasts. Listen, it’s amazing; it works. You give a bochur learning goals of his own; you give him a shiur. In this program, we had Chassidus classes, Nigleh classes, semicha classes, and a class on preparing for shidduchim. This was also during a wave of many divorces, and suddenly it became very clear how important it is to be prepared for that.

47:49 Speaker 4 And basically, a bochur can be anywhere in the world—

47:52 Speaker 2 By the way, unlike the view that a bochur can’t serve on shlichus at a Chabad House, I don’t think a Chabad House is necessarily the natural place for a bochur to be from the outset. But I also don’t think it’s an inappropriate place for him. For some bochurim, it’s the right fit; if they weren’t there, they’d be lost. Fine. And there are bochurim where, listen, he really is a quality bochur, the shliach is a quality person, and the shliach looks after him and checks in on him. It’s not some Chabad House where the bochur could be there and you have no idea where he’ll end up. The bochur gets a taste of shlichus there; he encounters shlichus there. And we say, listen, a bochur being at home is more complicated, because you do want to tell him, “Listen, your natural place isn’t at home.” I’m telling you the conclusion we reached as a community. But really, as you say, if a bochur is stuck at home—truly stuck, as they say—why not? Come and learn on your own. Now you say, “Listen, let’s create a physical yeshiva.” What does a physical yeshiva mean? Scheduled learning sessions, attendance, being there. Where do you want to be? In which city? For example, you open a yeshiva in Eilat, and then you’re only in Eilat. Why?

48:48 Speaker 5 You’re limited.

48:49 Speaker 2 Let him be wherever he wants. Just know one thing: you have a class tomorrow. You want a semicha certificate, right? By the way, our fee—I can say it here—was 300 or 350 shekels a month. That’s nothing. In a month you had four semicha classes, two classes in nigleh, two classes in Chassidus, and a class on preparing for shidduchim. There was personal support. A rabbi charges almost twice the monthly fee I just mentioned for a single hour of teaching. If a young man went to a rabbi privately, that would be good learning. Now make that available to a young man outside a group, and do it digitally. And by the way, I was involved in this project as a volunteer. Again, I wasn’t paid. The rabbis were paid salaries; I got involved and said, “Listen, I want to help get this off the ground, and then we’ll see whether someone takes it over as a paid position or not.” The young man gets a chance to finish the year. I didn’t accept you into a particular institution; I didn’t check what you did in the morning when you got up. Not because I wouldn’t want to—I’m an educator—but because that wasn’t my role. I wanted to help you finish the year with a strong learning component, with semicha in hand, with a tractate of Gemara. And also, to have a center for learning, to meet a rabbi who talks to you about Tosafos—and you create students. Think about it: we had young men like that in Thailand, Spain, Antwerp, and here in Israel.

49:56 Speaker 5 How long did this project actually run?

49:58 Speaker 2 Two and a half months. And on a practical level, you make these connections for them. Imagine the young man in Thailand meeting a young man from the yeshivah in Eilat, a shliach, and you arrange for them to learn together, to have a seder together. And then think about giving these guys—who are no longer in the “Don’t talk to me about shidduchim under any circumstances” camp, but acknowledge the reality—a chance to prepare together. As one young man told me, “Listen, I’m not getting married this year, but with Hashem’s help, it’ll probably happen sometime in the next decade, right?” When you get down to it, it’ll probably happen at some point, right? This project could have worked and succeeded. It did succeed in the two and a half months it existed. Again, we were learning and getting started, and there were complications and challenges. I don’t think there’s a yeshivah with 100 percent learning and 100 percent attendance and 100 percent everything. Certainly not in a project like this, with guys this age, and certainly without a mashgiach. There was just what I’d call personal follow-up. Listen, I’m the one checking whether you log into class. I’m not supervising you. You agreed to join the program and said you wanted to learn this year. A young man says, “You’re right. I wanted to do something with myself this year at the Chabad House or the yeshivah where I am.” Because you know what? With the younger students, you either learn the Gemara they’re learning or you don’t, and much of the time you’re busy with tefillin campaigns, and a lot of time falls through the cracks. I’ll tell you: I was a shliach in a yeshivah setting with a few other young men. They spent a year and a half, two years there, and didn’t complete semicha—not even one exam. That’s where I first thought, wow, we need something like this. The project came up against, let’s say, one move or several moves that torpedoed it. I don’t think

51:21 Speaker 2 it’s over. I think its time is still to come. I don’t know whether it’ll be in a virtual setting. At some point, by the way, everyone’s hope was to turn it into

51:27 Speaker 5 something

51:28 Speaker 2 physical, perhaps. But its original purpose was also to serve young men who couldn’t physically be there. That was the project.

51:38 Speaker 5 That’s incredible. I also think it’s a very painful issue, because those are the young men who fall through the cracks. They go to Chabad Houses or yeshivos, and afterward there’s nothing. I’ll describe how it works in the neighborhood where I live. Each year-group sets up its own shul, a kind of community space. What do I mean? Say a group studied in various places across the United States, even abroad, and then did their fourth year together at 770. They go out on shlichus, come back—usually two or three years later—and set up a shul. Every year-group has its own shul. Now, as the years pass and they get older, when the guys reach thirty or so, everyone settles somewhere and it breaks up. But for those central years, say from twenty-one to twenty-five, there’s a shul. The whole year-group, who studied together in different places, has somewhere to go when they come to 770. They have their own farbrengens. You understand?

52:39 Speaker 6 A place of your own.

52:39 Speaker 5 Yes, a sense of belonging.

52:41 Speaker 6 By the way, another thing—

52:41 Speaker 5 A real sense of belonging. Here in Israel, there isn’t much of that.

52:44 Speaker 6 I’ll tell you, there was an initiative someone tried to start. There was talk of making it part of the program. By the way, the program was called Ish Tomim. Ish Tomim, as in “a Tomim.” Someone said we should set up some kind of Yagdil in Israel. That could be a beautiful thing, but Israel isn’t Crown Heights. You’re not really twenty minutes away by scooter, at best, or on foot, at worst. But I can tell you that the question of the shidduchim stage, the question of preparing for shidduchim, goes a bit deeper than that. There are many young men at this stage who don’t have a clear support system, so they have to try to create things for themselves. And creating things for yourself is terribly hard.

53:17 Speaker 5 Very much so.

53:18 Speaker 6 And then there’s the social pressure and the mindset. In a setting where people are getting married, there’s also that feeling of, “Come on already,” or “I’m fed up,” or “My friends are getting married,” or—

53:23 Speaker 5 “I wanted to.”

53:25 Speaker 6 And that sometimes affects the decisions people make about getting married, and their emotional clarity too. There are a lot of angles here. No one—

53:31 Speaker 5 This whole subject is a world unto itself.

53:32 Speaker 6 No one can really grasp it all. Listen, no one has come along with the exact figures, down to [unclear]. But people understand that among older Chabad young men, it’s not just about the lack of a framework after kvutza. There’s something deeper, something in the preparation going back several years. When they reach shidduchim, it feels as though the young women have more focus, preparation, and mental maturity. That’s how it feels to many shadchanim, parents, counselors, professionals, and rabbis. By the way, young men say it too. I got quite a few responses like that from young men—we have a link for anonymous submissions. Several married young men wrote to me, “My wife is much more mature than I am.” That’s what they wrote. It’s not that he’s a little child and she’s an adult, but that’s how they put it.

54:13 Speaker 5 I understand.

54:14 Speaker 6 And that’s something I think a framework after kvutza could address. For the first time, you’re giving a rabbi the chance to do that—and by the way, it’s with the backing of rabbis and everything. People think that when you talk about preparing young men for shidduchim, you mean teaching them certain halachos for after the wedding. No. Preparing young men for marriage doesn’t always mean something that borders on putting ideas in their heads too early, things they shouldn’t be dealing with yet, or distracting them from learning. Sometimes it can mean saying, “Guys, look: do you know who you really are? Do you know what really matters to you? How much of what you do comes from [unclear], like your friends, or from whether you had a certain role at camp?” Some guys are deeply immersed in learning, and you develop an inner life of your own. Maybe you like drawing; maybe you like writing. I don’t know—are you developing something personal? I think our program gave that a place. They weren’t going to talk about things that would lead a young man into problematic territory. It was simply: come and build yourself as a person. Make a shidduch. Maybe you really do need to talk with him about what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a man, and so on. But I think this project was something special, just by having happened.

55:16 Speaker 5 How amazing.

55:16 Speaker 6 By the way, now that I’ve mentioned it, I didn’t get a chance to talk about the previous initiative we discussed, the support system for the Temimim. Let me just tie up that loose end. The support system for the Temimim can’t be defined as something where only someone who’s struggling goes to talk. Everyone can talk. It’s normal. Your father goes for mortgage advice, and your mother goes to a nutritionist, and there’s no shame in that. I think these things reached a point where they couldn’t be carried through to the end. So after the latest support initiative, the support system that, from what I saw, might not get off the ground in the coming year—though maybe it will, you know—I wrote: Genuine caring never goes to waste. I simply think that every time people talked about it, something happened. Think how many parents, bochurim and staff members say, “Listen, remember when we tried to do something like that?” That gives rise to the next initiative, the next change.

56:03 Speaker 5 Amazing. Wow, beautiful. I think the question of what happens after the year of k’vutzah is incredibly, incredibly critical. Maybe this conversation will help push it forward a little. All right, we’re coming to the end. Give us a tip, or something that’s worked for you, that’s helping you in avodas Hashem or in education, that you can share with us.

56:26 Speaker 6 I always find it hard to come up with a tip about myself. I’d like to say something that I think is important for each person personally, and for the yeshiva world as a whole. Let me ask you: What is your goal for the kind of bochur who comes out of the yeshiva world? A Tomim? A scholar? A shliach? Someone who fears Heaven? Probably none of those answers is a hundred percent right. Because if you produce a Tomim who’s a scholar but doesn’t do mivtzoim, you haven’t achieved your goal. If you produce a shliach who doesn’t know how to learn, you haven’t achieved your goal. If you produce a scholarly shliach who doesn’t know how to be a good husband, who doesn’t know how to listen to himself... I think we all need to ask questions as people—you mentioned “Ayeka” earlier. Not just in public; we need to ask ourselves. I think every rabbi, and the entire yeshiva world, needs to ask itself a question and give a very detailed answer. And again, we’re not answering it for someone else, but for ourselves: What is our vision? I’m trying to put into words a question I’ve asked several rabbis, and an answer I’ve heard from some of them. Often, we want the bochur to emerge as a Tomim like they were in Lubavitch. In Lubavitch, for example, some of them spoke Yiddish. Finish a Nigleh class in Yiddish in a classroom: How many bochurim would sit there and understand? In other words, over the years we’ve come to understand... I’ll tell you what I mean. Avraham Avinu drank water. We drink water too, right? We don’t drink kerosene today.

57:57 Speaker 5 Right.

57:58 Speaker 6 But did Avraham Avinu go to a tap? He dug a well himself, and we get our water from a tap. Have you ever heard anyone say, “Hey, what heresy! How can you drink water from a tap? Avraham Avinu drank from a well”? We understand that it’s the same water. The way it gets to you can be carrying it physically from the well, or it can come through the pipes of Israel’s water system, or... I think that in education—whether it’s sports or recreation, emotional well-being or matching the level of learning to the student... By the way, over the years, you know that today at the yeshiva in Kiryat Gat, if I understood correctly, there’s a semichah class within the yeshiva gedolah. I think there is. But a few years ago there wasn’t. Listen, there are bochurim for whom that’s right. I think we all need to ask what we really want the Temimim to become, and not give the easy answers: chassidim who fear Heaven. That’s obvious. Break that down for me. You have to turn those things into practical terms. Because if you give a class in Yiddish, it’s “Wow, how beautiful, that’s the Rebbe’s language”—but how many bochurim attended the class, and how many understood? I think we need to say: Listen, we’re keeping the same water. We’re not replacing the Gemara, we’re not replacing the Tanya, and we’re not replacing the connection with the child, or the Mishnah, kabbolas ol—everything stays the same. What vessel do I use to convey it? Can I offer the bochurim the water today, or tell them to go draw it from the well, or give—The strongest example that’s come up when I’ve talked about this with rabbis is PAMAM classes, but that’s how yeshivos are. Listen, a few years ago yeshivos didn’t have air conditioning either. What yeshiva

59:21 Speaker 6 would be willing to say today that it’s going back to the old days and won’t have air conditioning? No way. I think it’s about each person’s ability to say, “Listen, what do I want to be, and what do I truly want—not what looks good for me to be—and how do I actually get there?” If we all ask ourselves that question with real honesty, I think it will work. And by the way, that doesn’t necessarily mean questioning other people. You do that only respectfully. In fact, on the “Lev Avos” podcast, at least, I usually let a rabbi from a particular yeshiva speak for himself. I say, “Rabbi, I’m asking for your opinion. Tell me what you think, or tell me you’d rather not respond. What do you think about this?” Not, “Why aren’t you doing it this way?” Because they have their considerations. But if we all genuinely ask these questions and stay focused on the issues, it will work. I want to end, from my side, before you perhaps have another question, with one more little point. I think one of the things that wins bochurim over most is the feeling that you’re really, really, really there for them—not just there because it’s your job. I remember when I was at a yeshiva in France, I noticed that the bochurim had their scheduled learning sessions and nothing beyond that. When the break ended—actually, the other way around, when the break began... I’m a big believer in personal goals. I myself got to study five volumes—

1:00:32 Speaker 7 When the break ended, what?

1:00:35 Speaker 6 There wasn’t time to get back to class.

1:00:36 Speaker 7 Ah.

1:00:37 Speaker 6 No, what I mean is, the learning... There was this yeshiva in France, the yeshiva in Cergy, a wonderful, amazing yeshiva. There were a few bochurim there, naturally. Young bochurim, by the way, and you can find this in any yeshiva in the world. But there were a few young bochurim there whom I noticed, and I said to them, “Listen, you’re learning the yeshiva material. What are you learning on your own?” Now, personally, as a bochur I got to study Sefer Hachinuch, Sefer Hashlichus—Sefer Hashlichus is three hundred pages—and five volumes of Likkutei Sichos. I strongly believe in personal goals, and I believe in writing out questions and answers by hand. I approached one bochur and said, “Listen, let’s make a deal. Every day, you write out two halachos for me, no more, by hand. The laws of Shabbos. And if you reach the goal after a year, I’ll give you a prize.” Now, there was one bochur who was having a very hard time. I did this with four bochurim, and there was one of them who really wasn’t into learning. He—

1:01:27 Speaker 7 He wasn’t excited about it.

1:01:28 Speaker 6 He kept saying, “I don’t belong in yeshiva. I don’t want to—I don’t want to be here.” This was France; the outside culture there... You know, in Israel, if a bochur drifts to the margins, G-d forbid, he drifts to a certain kind of margins. In France, it’s France.

1:01:40 Speaker 7 Right.

1:01:41 Speaker 6 And—

1:01:42 Speaker 7 The extreme is different.

1:01:43 Speaker 6 And I told him, “Listen, I really want you to meet with the rosh yeshiva and find a bochur to go running with every day. You’re a heavyset bochur, and...” I think that by saying that, I made him believe I wasn’t there out of some obsession with learning—“Learn, learn, learn.” No. I genuinely wanted what was good for him. I believe walking would do him good. I believe finding a friend to run with would do him good. After all, the whole attitude toward sports is different in France. There were times when they officially went outside to play, even as older Chassidic bochurim and all that. After a whole year—

1:02:10 Speaker 7 Did he do it? Did he?

1:02:11 Speaker 6 So listen, there were four bochurim. I decided I was going to go all out with this. I got each of those four bochurim a silver-plated trophy—not real silver, silver-plated—with his name engraved on it. My thinking was that when I gave them these trophies, they’d have them for life. I mean, that trophy... If I’d given him some book that might not interest him, if I’d given him—okay.

1:02:36 Speaker 7 There’s power in that. Yes.

1:02:37 Speaker 6 You give him something that makes him say, “Wow.” Friday night comes, the Seder night comes. By the way, they actually used it on Seder night. There was a bochur—and now I’m talking to you about the laws of Shabbos, starting with siman 242, if I remember correctly—who wrote out thirty-three simanim by hand. He filled two and a half notebooks, and he showed them to me. And I think these are the kinds of things where you say, “Listen, but the yeshiva requires certain material, or…” I think it takes creative thinking to figure out what will really make a bochur feel that I’m here for him. That won him over, by the way. That bochur, one of those four, the one who was having a hard time—I don’t think he stayed in yeshivas. Or, more accurately, I know he struggled in yeshivas; I don’t think he’s in a yeshiva framework. I know he even has [unclear]. He called me a year and a half or two years later. I was surprised that he remembered. Now, I don’t know whether it was me specifically, or whether anyone else who had simply said, “Listen, I didn’t look at what the yeshiva wants,” would have had the same effect.

1:03:30 Speaker 7 So you show him that you care: I care about you. You matter to me.

1:03:32 Speaker 6 I’m remembering another point that perhaps I can really end with, about creativity. Maybe we also spoke about emotional well-being and attentiveness, and about building up the bochur, not just the student. I think a yeshiva today is built around: Did you learn? Did you get up on time? And many rabbis, on a personal level, ask, “And how are you feeling?” But in the yeshiva system, there’s no question for the staff member, no place in the binder for how he’s feeling, or whether he ate, whether he spends time with friends, or how he looks at life. Think about younger ages, for example. We had [unclear]. How many bochurim may have been dealing with fears and not spoken about them? That was something that stood out for us in France when we arrived. I felt very connected to the Rebbe’s sicha built entirely around “Tracht gut.”

1:04:09 Speaker 7 Yes, [unclear].

1:04:10 Speaker 6 I felt very connected to that sicha.

1:04:12 Speaker 7 About bitachon.

1:04:13 Speaker 6 And we launched a campaign called “Tracht Bon.” In French, bon means good. We gave the bochurim—I think it was… It moved me. As an aside, for the bochurim in the yeshivas in France, we had a kind of chart, something like the attentiveness program. I proposed it to the rabbis in the yeshivas. Every month I would check in: either I or another shliach spoke with every bochur, and we had a chart showing how he was doing academically, socially, and how he felt in yeshiva. That’s what I proposed with the attentiveness program. Maybe, with Hashem’s help, it will be established someday. We gave every bochur his own chart—the same chart we had, just without the names—and I told him, “We want you to write down one good thing that happened to you every day. Tracht Bon: think good, look for the good.” Because our minds—you know, the news never reports that a dog bit a man. It reports that a man bit a dog. We look for the bad. And the bochurim sat and wrote down good things. One wrote that he got a hundred on a test; another wrote that he enjoyed and understood a sicha of the Rebbe; another wrote that there was hot water in the mikveh. Now you say to yourself, “Listen, is this about learning?” You say no, but it’s beautiful, because that bochur—

1:05:13 Speaker 7 Absolutely.

1:05:13 Speaker 6 And do you know what prize we gave them? We gave it a lot of thought. We said, “What will really reach them?” We gave them Lenovo headphones. I remember we bought them on Amazon. They cost a very significant amount. We put a sticker on each set of headphones, right across the seal you cut to open the box. It said, “Listen well.” I remember we translated it into Yiddish: “Listen well.” Now, I said, listen, if I’d given him a book—or, along the same lines as the trophy, if I’d given him a book—I think the headphones were even more powerful than the trophy. You give him something he’ll probably use for music or phone calls, and he keeps seeing the “Think Good” logo. He remembers the Rebbe’s sicha, he remembers the daily video about it, and maybe he remembers to listen to something positive, or to say something positive. I think that, broadly speaking, if I say that educational messages are hard to plan because they will always depend on the place, the time, and the bochur, the basic idea is to let caring lead, connect it to the Rebbe’s values, sichos, and teachings, and always think about what the bochur is receiving, not what I came to give him. Because if I love a bochur and bring him white chocolate when he really loves dark chocolate, I don’t think he’ll… But yes.

1:06:18 Speaker 7 Yes. Wow, that’s amazing. First of all, yasher koach. Second, what I’m taking from this conversation is that caring is always what matters in the end. And if something pains us, we shouldn’t just shout about it; we should see how we can actually change things—by saying something, making a call, reaching out, pushing things forward—

1:06:36 Speaker 6 Even in small ways, even quietly. It doesn’t always have to be done under pressure.

1:06:40 Speaker 7 Or with a lot of noise. Yes. That’s it. Wow, much success with all the initiatives, all the projects.

1:06:45 Speaker 6 Thank you.

1:06:45 Speaker 7 Yasher koach for coming, and with Hashem’s help, may the work you’re doing and your initiatives bear fruit. Fruit from a tree—not just fruit, you know; something lasting, with roots.

1:06:56 Speaker 6 Amen, with Hashem’s help. I think that includes the initiatives that I imagine will come out of this room—from the minds of people who thought about what was said here, and from the things you’re doing. And I think it’s also important to say that it can’t be, “Oh, the On Chabad Education podcast talked about this,” or “He’s doing it, he…” It has to become yours. I don’t know what you can do. Maybe you can talk to a student in yeshiva, maybe to your son, maybe… But it has to stop belonging to one person. It belongs to everyone.

1:07:22 Speaker 7 To all of us. Well, Aharon Freiman, yasher koach.

1:07:25 Speaker 6 Thank you very much.